Shimano's latest press release reminds us that, as much as we would all like to own a ten thousand dollar trail bike, many avid riders, and some first-time mountain bikers will be hitting the trails this season aboard far more modest steeds. The new M6000-level Deore component ensemble is targeted at the entry-level enthusiasts and cash strapped shredders who would much prefer XTR, but have not yet purchased a winning lottery ticket.
Highlights of the new group are a clutch type Shadow plus rear derailleur, a four-arm XTR style crank spider, Centerlock brake rotors and hubs, and while the Servo-Wave brake levers and ICE-compatible calipers are modeled very close to the ergonomically pleasant XT and XTR stoppers, you'll have to pony up for the finned brake pads, because they are not standard fare.
Equally newsworthy was what was not included in the press release: No eleven speed for M6000, so it won't be cross-compatible with its pricier siblings. The basic Deore will remain a ten-speed transmission, and there is no mention of a one-by (single chainring) option. Instead, M6000 customers can choose from a number of two and three-chainring cranksets (no surprise there) paired with a new wide-range 11 by 42-tooth cassette, or Shimano's longstanding 11 by 32, 34, or 36-tooth cassettes. To assist OEM customers, Shimano will offer front changers with every possible cable and clamping arrangement.
SLX One-By and a Wide-Range Cassette
On the heels of the M6000 Deore ensemble, came the announcement that an SLX-level one-by drivetrain has finally been approved for production, and with an eleven--speed, 11 x 46-tooth, wide-range cassette - both of which will be released this Spring. The affordable one-by transmission, big-boy cassette and the concurrent release of XT-level wheelsets with Boost axle spacing reflect a large-scale adjustment in the Japanese parts maker's range, presumably, to pull alongside SRAM in the OEM market and to ensure that those customers have the proper tools to outfit mid-priced performance mountain bikes with tip-to-toe Shimano componentry.
Entry Level Trail Pedal
Shimano also added an SPD Trail pedal to its range that is reportedly priced to match the M6000 ensemble. The PDED500 pedal once again, puts one of Shimano's most-wanted products into the hands of entry-level riders. Expect to see the 500-level pedals on demo fleets world wide. No price was available at the time of the press release.
Boost WheelsetsWheels have gradually become a staple product for Shimano and, while wide rims are still on the horizon, to keep in step, their wheel range is now available in Boost-width as well as standard-width axles. Two new 29” and 27.5” Deore XT wheelsets have wider axle options - a 110x15mm e-thru front- and a 148x12mm rear-axle spacing. Shimano says that the new wheelsets increase stiffness. Also new are rear thru axle hubs (AX-MT700 and AX-MT500) with smaller housings and lighter weights that feature greater clearance for frames and brake calipers.
MENTIONS: @shimano
Sram I'm waiting for an even affordable Sram GX.
XTR vs XT they are even in stopping power but obviously the XTR is going to be much lighter. There is a difference when comparing XTR Trail vs XTR.
Save some weight on the dinner plate cassette and ridiculous length of chain!
(full disclosure: i have XTs on my trail bike and they're perfectly good performers and a great deal for the money haha)
So work out for three months to avoid adding 80g to your 1900g wheelset and 2000g of tire? Seems kinda obsessive to me. I mean i'm a big proponent of staying in shape but this is kind of extreme.
It's an interesting strategy, isn't it? Shimano is banking on their brand recognition to basically go direct to consumer, which has merit. On the flip side, in our shop at least, we've stopped stocking most of their products in the past 6-8 months because of these online issues. If a business -any business- can't make margin on something, they won't (re: can't) sell it. So Sram/Hope/Formula have been brake recommendations. RaceFace for cranks and chainrings, etc, etc. I don't suspect them to take notice of this over night, but it will be interesting in another 5+ years. For that matter, in 5 years time the LBS will probably look a lot different too!
We end users are faced with the unfortunate choice of taking advice from an LBS who, as you point out above, will end up having to offer recommemdations based on margin over user need or value for money, or taking a punt on components with positive online reviews.
As a rider with a workshop full of 26 rims and non-boosted frames and forks the industry has shown itself for what it is to me over the past 5 years; a bunch of people searching for monetized innovation and no more.
And you guys in the LBS get done over whichever way you rub it. Good luck Mike!
I get that it's not glamorous to sell hybrids, but they seem to sell in quantities that make MTBs & road bikes pale in comparison.
End users must also do their due diligence on their potential purchases. We can, and do, help guide decisions based upon experience and knowledge, but our overall goal is to make sure you get the right bike, component, or accessory that is right for you.
At least that is my view.
@iantmcg @DARKSTAR63 @orientdave It seems to me that any time the topic of 'support your LBS' comes up, the responses are divided into 2 camps essentially: Camp 1 is I don't owe the LBS anything for existing/my LBS sucks/they are jerks/I buy it cheaper online -OR- Camp 2: I support my LBS because they are rad people/are involved in the community/are knowledgeable/are friendly/do good work, etc. There just isn't much in between. So in what I'm sure will be an exercise in futility, let me clarify a few things:
1) All local bike shops are not created equal. I absolutely agree, if the shop you have access to sucks, don't support them. I wouldn't either.
2) We aren't recommending *against* Shimano at my shop, we are just stocking less of their stuff--when the SLX 1x stuff came out we upgraded a lot of drivetrains for people. But like @road-n-dirt mentioned, when Johnny Customer can buy Shimano brakes online for less than dealer wholesale, we're not going to stock that item. I don't see this as tricky or dishonest, it's just common sense. How or why should we expect a person to pay us 50% more for an item they can just buy online? We don't expect them to do so just because we exist. Sram makes a good brake in the Guide series, Sram has great customer service (waaay better than Shimano 9/10 times) so we have no issue recommending that product. If someone asks about Deore brakes? Of course I tell them they are good! Best bang for the buck brake imo. The owner of the shop has even told people that they can get them cheaper online--some buy online and come back and have us set them up, some see the value in supporting a local business that supports their hobby and go ahead and buy from us despite the higher price. I'd say neither way is wrong.
3) If you are already knowledgeable about bikes and can usually find your answers online, I'm sure it's easy to see little value in a bike shop. But, ever think about the people who want a bike who don't live and breath this stuff? THAT'S who the LBS is important to. That guy who comes in and tells me he hasn't ridden a MTB since 2001 and wants to get back into it now that his kids are old enough to wipe their own arses. You think he has any idea where to even begin? Based on my experiences, the answer is no. And guess what.. at least 3-4 times a year that customer goes on to be super stoked on riding, finds friends and comradery at the LBS, shows up to trail work days, etc. You can't buy that kind of stuff on Jensen or CRC. So maybe the old heads in the sport have sorted it all out for themselves, but there are still people who benefit from a good LBS being present.
4) I prefer to spend my money at local businesses whenever possible. I expect items to cost a bit more when doing so, and I'm fine with that--I understand that Mom-n-Pop doesn't have the buying power of Nashbar or Home Depot, etc. But I know that Mom-n-Pop are residents of my community, spend at least some of their money here, own a home here, and pay taxes here. Chain Reaction obviously does not. I've never seen the guys from Nashbar show up to a dig day, ya know? If a person only places value in getting something for the cheapest possible price, local businesses will lose every time. Do I, and will I still shop online? Sure. But I also understand the importance of shopping local--if a person doesn't see that as vital to the health of a community, I don't know what else I can say.
And specifically to @orientdave, trust me, every time a new standard rolls out every single person in our shop throws their hands up like 'You can't be serious!'. We all ride too, and we get it. --Our head mechanic just now, as of 2017 has moved on from his 26" bike.. we've always been of the opinion that if you're having fun on it, keep riding it! Some industry changes absolutely appear as money grabs, I agree. I rolled my eyes when Boost came out--but seeing what can be done with it I'm on board now. It's typically a 'time will tell' situation, and unfortunately the end user is always stuck footing the bill for industry experimentation. For what it's worth, it seems like the industry is starting to listen to the feedback and all these "money driven innovations" are starting to slow down a bit. I think they took notice when people started sitting on their wallets due to concerns about buying a bike with standards that will be outdated in 2 seasons. In that regard, I'm hopeful for the future.
I understand the dilemma that bike shops face now but this is simply one of those situations where shops will have to evolve or perish. The future is in service...rather than being a retail shop with a mechanic or two, the LBS needs to become a completely equipped full-service "garage" with a parts desk. There can certainly be a showroom with some display models but most bikes will have to be ordered, and for this to work, brands will have to expand their demo fleet in order to make more frequent visits so that customers can test ride. The ideal location will no longer be main st, it will be right at the trail center.
It would also help if we could get brutally honest reviews on sites like PB but that's unlikely to happen simply due to the way things work.
I've heard the 'evolve or die' argument a lot, and sure, it has some merit--all businesses must remain flexible enough to cater to current market demands. But the things you suggest are waaay outside the scope of the 'average' bike shop. I'm speaking in terms of investment, overhead, etc. A super garage and a warehouse full of parts? Ok, now you need space to store all of that stuff, but still need to be in a location convenient for people--no one wants to, or always has the means to get across town for you to fix their tire (flat fixes are a huge amount of our walk in traffic). So your rent will likely go up due to increased square footage needs. Even with the extra space, you can't possibly have the room to store, or more importantly, the purchasing power to buy in bulk quantities to get the prices down to the levels of those online giants you are competing against. "Evolve or die" shouts are heard again when the inevitable suggestion comes of 'just build an online retail website, silly'. But to do that you'll need to invest up-front for someone to build it, more money with no guaranteed return--heck, just last year Price Point shut the doors on their online operations... but the super garage/parts center in Bellingham is supposed to compete? I hope you have a rich uncle, because you'll have a hard time coming up with such a mountain of investment capital to get all these things rolling...
And you must keep in mind that all of this is for what most people in the U.S. consider a *hobby*...so whereas if your car needs repair or maintenance, it is absolutely a priority. If you can't afford to fix your bike? Meh, you just don't ride for a while. That is the difference between a bike shop and say, Auto Zone, Napa, O'Reilly's, etc.
In terms of a showroom with displays and an ordering system--what motivates a customer to want to wait for a bike to be ordered? Is this system going to somehow bring the retail cost of bikes down for them? Would you spend 5k on a bike without ever having sat on it? How about those $600 commuter or around town bikes? I don't know all the answers to these questions. I do know that for those brands doing direct-to-consumer selling now, that in order for their warranties to be honored the bike must be assembled by a professional shop. I've already seen shops start charging $300 for this service instead of the usual $60-100. So there's your 'evolve or die' at work I guess.. Much like building a shop at a trail head, many of your suggestions are woefully optimistic without bringing the reality of the situation into it. Not every trail system is Moab, Whistler, etc. You want to build a bike shop 30 minutes outside of town at the trail head? So are people driving 30 minutes to your super garage to have their bikes serviced? Boy, heck of a business model you have there...
XT is the equivalent of X1, NX would probably be the equivalent of Deore.
@b-wicked: Over 18 years of riding and literally hundreds of derailleurs (i'm a hobbyist mechanic too), I have NEVER seen what you describe. You must live in a really backwards place.
"Too tiny movement"? Sounds like you are inventing things to complain about.
Moreover, adding gear range is not what I would call being (technically) innovative. Every third year or so, they add up a cog to the cassette... Wow, revolution!
I (personally) don't need 12 gears as I am rarely limited by my 11-42 range and never bothered by the ratio gap between gears. This is all personal preference I believe, but you won't see any eagle like cassette on my bike any time soon. Unless maybe on a 29er as it's otherwise too exposed to my taste.
11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-46 ... a 9t jump on the final cog. crap.
@inverted180 I'm a bicycle technician that actually uses that cassette so yes, I'm well aware of that cassette. It sounds like you don't understand gear ratios. A difference at the smaller side of the drivetrain is more dramatic than the taller side. A 2 tooth difference from 11-13 and say 37-39 are completely different percentages.
It's a safe bet to assume that Shimano has done their homework on this stuff.
Another good one is if you have ever used or seen a mega-range shimano cassette. Watching the derailleur climb that beast, you would think the derailleur was going to snap right off.
Shimaino 11-46
11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-46
Shimano 11-42
11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-42
Sunrace 11-46
11-13-15-18-21-
-24-28-32-36-40-46
Now tell me mr.technician... which cassette is a better 11-46?
I imagine a clutch mech would be best though, and I gather most seem to use a different cable pull ratio from the pre-clutch days - does anyone know if there is a clutch mech which works with either SRAM 1:1 or older Shimano 1:2 shifters?
Judging by your copy and pasting, it looks like Shimano prefers to have an added step in the faster side of the cassette and Sunrace prefers it closer to the climbing side. Regardless, both have the same range. The last gear being so tall is pretty much just a bailout gear anyway. I'd still put my money on XT, but that's just my preference.
Just an FYI as well, The 11-42 is for 2x or 3x set-ups and the 11-46 is for 1x.
You're correct there. Realistically though, you would notice the larger percentage change in the smaller side of the cassette than the larger side. I find I play in the middle cassette more than one of the sides so I prefer having small steps in the middle.
Don't entry and all other level riders just buy PD-M530s? They're a 500 series product and only about $40 brand new....
If you wanna split off DH racing & keep it 10 speed, I won't argue, but there's for sure a market for burlier 11 speed components, get to it.
Article picture show 1x crankset (the album the pics are in also show more images of 1 x Deore crank)
I am confuzzled :S
Why are 1x's so expensive to begin with?
Marketing aside, you can easily make 1x anything yourself. The new Deore 10-speed cassette offers plenty of range for the vast majority of riders. Just remove the rings from the crank, add a N/W, and disregard the front shifter.
Thanks
I do see this as a good option for entry level bikes, but personally wouldn't buy anything below SLX as I prefer 1x.
Also, companies like OneUp have pretty much given us the best of both worlds. Their expansion kits give you the SRAM tech with the Shimano reliability. I'm using their Shark setup right now...so I have a cassette with Eagle's range, X1's price, and Shimano-quality shifting and reliability. It is heavy, but i'd be a moron to complain about a 90g heavier cassette when my rear tire is almost 1200g.
I also have experience with One UP components and while I love the ability to expand your range at a fraction of the cost of a new one shifting is compromised. I have experienced it personally and I think every review I have read said the same thing.
Oh Brakes XT for price and power or XTR levers with Saint callipers.
I've got Hope V4s
Just saying ????
Or are they properly hollow like SLX, XT etc?
Have i just jumped back in time 10 years?
If SRAM launched this today they would be getting a total roasting
I for the life of me cannot see what the problem with offering more options is. Maybe someone can explain this to me?
That's it!
It used to be that you couldn't really shift under power, so you didn't lose much with a front derailleur. That's how it was when I first got into the sport in the 90s - if you were trying to get into a lower gear while powering up an incline, you'd bork your rear derailleur, so you had to look ahead and anticipate the proper gear to use and stick with it. Meaning there was not that much extra hassle involved in making it a front derailleur shift and dropping to granny - and given the small range on cassettes back then, you desperately needed that range. Now, rear derailleurs will let you get away with murder - that and disc brakes, more than suspension really, were the biggest revelations to me when I get back into the sport in circa 2010.
Whether 1x10 or 1x11 - a modern cassette has a shit ton of range. Enough for most people. And despite the heavier cassette (compared with say 10sp xtr from just before the 1x11 revolution), it's still reasonable. And all that weight stuff is outweighed, for most users, by the simplicity, and the fact that they can access almost all of that range while under power, so there's a lot less interruption to flow, having to get off the bike because you didn't clear a steep section you didn't properly anticipate, etc. It's just more user friendly, and more fun.
11sp 11-46 SLX is here now - sweet. Same old driver, slightly bigger/heavier cassette, same reliable and durable derailleur performance. Meanwhile, the lower end SRAM groups have gotten pretty damn good as well. We all moan about how bikes have become super expensive - but if you look at the $3,000 and just below price bracket, you now get solid bikes with components that you'd upgrade only if you're looking for bling or light weight, not for usability. SLX brakes are beefy and reliable enough for me on Galbraith at 230# - that's impressive, especially given the prices on those. Drive trains that perform well for years, even in gritty mud, also impressive. The only real shortcomings of those bikes these days is hubs (my Kona's stock hub was replaced twice under warranty, with a serious upgrade the second time around because they didn't want me coming back again and again).
That's the only reasonable and valid argument that will eventually make me convert to 1x.
Yap, most of the "new users" can choose between slow process of learning how to shift and do it effortlessly, or just go to 1x. I've noticed that some of my friends that started riding a couple of years ago still struggle with this magic art of shifting, so I can understand them, for me it's just natural, but I understand those limitations in terms of simplicity and shifting under power. Well, we'll see! I've read a post from a guy who instead of going 1x he went 2x Di2. It's much more expensive but it solves the simplicity issue;D
I do hope that the new Deore line would introduce a new 10 speed wide range cassette, since the SunRace one doesn't shift too smooth and all the other options are super expensive. A mid level wide range 10 speed cassette is what's missing on the market currently. Al though I have my doubts if Shimano will make one because the Deore line doesn't have a 1x option.
" srams direct mount is certainly patented..."
Source? There are plenty of other companies that have direct mount.
I was surprised to see the triple crankset. They probably need it for the trekking bikes.
@vinay I removed the granny, put on NW chainring and I'm good to go. While the chain dropped occasionally on rough terrain it never got stuck between frame and granyring mounts... This was old zee mech, now on M8000 I've had no issues. Probably also depends on the frame and space available in there... I can perfectly understand why leaving the granny is harmless precaution, those extra grams can save a lot of nerves if chain gets stuck there but with my setup I don't need it. Deore is used on wide range of bikes from trekking to relatively cheap mtbs which still run 2/3x8/9/10 systems so its cheaper for them to design one crank for all
The Q factor on Shimano triple cranks is no different than the Q factor on the 1X cranks.
All the XT and SLX cranks from Shimano have identical Q factor (~176mm) regardless of their 1X/2X/3X version. I'm reading the X dimensions directly from Shimano's Technical Information document.
There is some variability among the XTR cranks ( the Trail versions are slightly less Q than XT/SLX, and the Race versions are lesser still) but again, the Q factors are IDENTICAL on the 1X and 2X versions of the respective models.
#Triple4lyf
It was engineered to be great.
Now it's just cheap junk made in a third world country as they race to the bottom to cut their costs as much as possible.
Shimano = engineered to be cheap.
I recently had a rental bike (MSRP on the bike was 5,000$...) for a few days that had Deore brakes and I have to say, they worked well. Better than decent even. I have zero confidence in them lasting more than a few months though. The looked and felt cheap. Just not quality items.
And we won't even get in to the fact that Shimano is 2-3 years behind on things...
-They are still clinging on to 2x11, and even offer 3x11 which is insane, while the market has moved on (everyone except Germans!)
-They are just now coming out with cheap 1x11 in SLX.
-The 11-46 cassettes are just badly designed, the last jump is 37T to 46T! This isn't even within Shimano's philosophy of having short jumps between gears.
-The XT cassette is also super heavy, SunRace has a cheaper cassette that is about the same weight
-Di2 on mtbs is just dumb, what's the benefit? A screen that tells you what gear you are in?
Here's what Shimano should do:
-Introduce a new gruppo, either XTR or a new top-tier gruppo above that (XXTR?) that is wireless only, 1x only
-Have the cassette fit within their own design philosophy of smooth shifting, so short gear jumps, and the range needs to be at least equivalent to Eagle
-That probably means a 14 or 15 gear cassette which is a bit silly, but so be it! Make it work!!
-Also make it light, lighter than current XTR
-Trickle tech down as usual
Alternatively, gearbox all the things.
Can't believe why they haven't released that yet...
it does