Shimano Patent Filing Raises Electric Questions

Feb 13, 2018
by Vernon Felton  
Shimano Patent

Shimano recently filed an application with the United States Patent Office that's raising eyebrows and all sorts of questions.

The patent appears to outline a completely interconnected, electronic component system—as in, you hit a button that drops the seatpost and the suspension travel and damping automatically change as well. Pure conjecture here, but if I were a betting man, I'd guess that lowering the seatpost as you begin to drop into a steep descent might automatically increase your travel and reduce the compression damping on your fork and rear shock. Think of it as an e-version of BMC's Trailsync dropper.

Bombs away.

That's what it looks like from here, at least. Patents are a strange beast to wrestle with; they are at once incredibly detailed and obscure. Companies need to set precedent and protect their emerging technologies without exactly giving up the goods. It's a weird, linguistic dance. You can pore through the patent application here, but the bit about suspension travel, damping and seatpost interconnectivity is evident in the patent filing.

Shimano has never been a company bent on courting controversy, so I wasn't surprised by their response when I requested an official company statement on the patent.

"Shimano is constantly in development of new products, but does not comment on rumors, innuendo or speculation about products whether they are in development or not.”

Well, okay then. The company doesn't want to deal in speculation, but I will...it's in my job description.


An Electric World...It's Coming

It's not like Shimano has been hiding their electric intentions. They debuted Di2 for road bikes in 2009 and rolled out e-XTR in 2014. We've tested the stuff extensively. But as we noted in this double header XT Di2 review, while novel and accurate, electronic shifting hasn't been a game changer in the dirt world. It seems like a fair bit of wires and hassle to accomplish a task that a $3 steel cable already does pretty damn well. It kind of makes you think that maybe the end game was always something much bigger than moving a rear derailleur left and right.
Shimano Patent

Likewise, electronically-activated suspension has been around for a good long while now. K2 had its "Smart Shock" back in 1997. Fox rolled out its electronic iCD suspension waaay back in 2012. Magura has had acceleromator-equipped suspension for years as well. But getting those suspension components to "talk" to non-suspension components? That's a new trick, if not a logical progression. That patent suggests it may soon also be a reality.

But the patent indirectly raises another question: Will Shimano's electronic dropper seatpost communicate with Shimano-branded suspension? Will Shimano become a major player in forks and rear shocks? When you consider that their biggest rival, SRAM, has its fingers stuck deep into the suspension pie, it seems odd that Shimano would continue to steer clear of the squishy-bits business. Might Shimano's moment arrive in the form of electronically-activated suspension that "talks" to their e-dropper post? Who knows. Shimano isn't in the business of conjecture and innuendo, but you're free to go whole hog.

Conjecture away.

High Voltage--The Inside Line on Electric Shifting and Suspension

by pinkbikeoriginals
Views: 15,033    Faves: 20    Comments: 17


Posted In:
Reviews and Tech Patent Pending Shimano


Author Info:
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Member since Apr 11, 2014
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238 Comments
  • 105 1
 That chainring clearly has way too many teeth for that chain, nice try "Shimano".
  • 60 1
 Better yet, the rear brake caliper isn't mounted to anything.
  • 26 0
 Nevermind the rear caliper not attached to the frame. Must be a structural brake cable.
  • 23 0
 @dlxah: New, floating caliper technology.
  • 4 0
 I do also like the shortest chainstays ever, alarmly close to the rear shock, so must have a nice fat ass.
  • 3 2
 haha good catch ! Before anyone else complains, always remember that you always have a choice weither to use any electronic stuff or not. If nobody buys them then they will stop making it, simple as that !
  • 5 6
 The picture is for a flat bar road bike... or did the caliper brakes on the rim NOT clearly give it away to you ?
  • 14 1
 Has cycling tech gone too far????? Tune in next week on Dragon Ball Z to find out!!!!!
  • 4 1
 @viatch: ya, thats totally working for e-bikes
  • 8 7
 @H3RESQ: The problem is all the Europeans won't stop buying them
  • 9 0
 I dunno Felty, not sure you're going to catch RC this week. He's miles ahead in the comments carnage tally.
  • 13 0
 Also, how does that rear suspension linkage work?

...on this full suspension rim-brake road bike?
  • 5 6
 More like Sham-ano...
  • 5 1
 @deeeight: It's not a pic of a road bike. That's just what happens when you hand a technical description to a patent lawyer. Somehow the technical drawings in patent documents are always laughably bad, and done by people that don't have the slightest bit of domain expertise.

See also: ipfunny.blogs.com/ip_funny_intellectual_pro/2005/12/patent_drawings.html
  • 2 0
 Front tyre would puncture if the fork bottoms too.
  • 6 0
 i dont care about that, its the no disc brake thing that has me worried
  • 23 4
 looks like a session
  • 2 0
 @chyu: The rear shock already penetrated the rear tyre at top out.
  • 9 9
 @rockin-itis: its the battle of the click bait bozos.............

i really don't get it.
there are soooo many other things that could be written and commented on about our lil mtb world.
people, places, companies,newbies, vets, racing, freeride, nutrition, grass rooots racing..........it just goes on and on..........
how about some killer interviews with olympians or paralypians that use mtb for cross training?....or mx/sx stars.?...............i see ken roczen is sponsored by canyon these days..........


soooo many other cooler things to write about and discuss.
but no, click bait wins out.
  • 2 0
 @H3RESQ: I don't get the joke? E-Bikes are selling like hot cakes....
  • 2 2
 @deadmeat25:

They're outselling downhill, enduro, freeride and slopestyle bikes combined by a large margin.
  • 1 0
 @dlxah: Floating brake mount. Bringing back the early '00s.
  • 1 0
 obviously a stealth patent for a game-changing 3 speed... goodbye, Eagle!
  • 3 1
 @stacykohut: I totally agree, I don't understand the downvotes. Must be a bunch of tech-obcessed millennials in here.
  • 1 0
 @TheRaven: I think the shock kind of destroys the rim, that allows for full travel of the suspension, then serves as a handbrake for the rear wheel and you stop. Smart, 3 actions in 1.
  • 1 0
 @deeeight: The picture is for a mountain bike... or did the full suspension, etc. NOT clearly give it away to you?
  • 1 0
 @mtbikeaddict: Those ain't no mountain bike wheels, and the chainring is bigger than the cassette. Not a mountain bike.
  • 1 0
 @TheRaven: You're still questioning whether a DH bike is a real mountainbike?
  • 1 0
 @TheRaven: That isn't a bike period lol. What the heck IS that mutant?
  • 1 0
 @enki: So what I'm gathering here is, that if the drawing is obscure enough the right lawyer can claim that another design is or is not already patented, depending on who is paying them? Seems to check out with the rest of our legal system here.
  • 1 1
 @deeeight: I know, seems @H3RESQ doesn't though...
  • 1 0
 @Moe2344:
what a patent covers is defined in the "claims". Unfortunately, sometimes those are not unambiguous, and that is when lawyers get involved.
  • 1 0
 @Dangerous-Dan: exactly what I was getting at
  • 1 2
 @Moe2344:
The main point I am getting at is that the drawing is really of no consequence. What matters is the "claims". The drawing is there to attempt to clarify what the claims are. It is not the drawing which creates the ambiguity. Shimano's drawing with wheels and suspension out of scale is of no consequence.

Also, if I could point to a product which was on the market which used one of the claims, then some or all of the patent would be invalidated. One unfortunate thing is that if a patent dispute goes to trial you can be sure that one or both sides will exclude anyone who they believe has a background that allows them to understand what the argument is.
  • 81 33
 Can all the electronics please just f#ck off now? It's not funny anymore.
  • 33 19
 I remember when people said that about 27.5

Wireless shifting, droppers (and braking) would be f*cking awesome!
  • 32 3
 Right? I'm still saying that to cars. I definitely prefer shuttling with my horse & buggy.
  • 26 4
 I'm just going to enjoy the shit out of it when my buddies start running out of power mid-ride and can't shift, adjust their droppers and have locked out suspension. Wink
  • 7 1
 @vikb: I'm not sold on electronic suspension to be fair, but I manage to recharge my commuting lights when they beep at me, I'm sure I'll be able to plug my dropper into the wall once in a while.
  • 32 1
 #Sent from my typewriter using telegraph.
  • 4 0
 @Clarkeh: I remember when they said that about cars...
  • 14 2
 @vikb: they won't fail locked out, they will fail wide open. also, if you have any Di2 experience, you know that they will go many hundreds of miles on a single charge. If you run out of juice in the middle of a ride, it's because you ignored the low battery light for multiple rides, and you're an idiot! lol
  • 3 3
 Agree, with one exception... Sucky internal cable routing would have me consider a cable-less, remote capable, electronic shifter. Electronically adjusted dampers - you've got to be kidding me. Fox and RS can't even make reliable dampers without the extra gizmos.
  • 7 1
 @Clarkeh: go check out modern sport motorcycles. They all offer electronically adjustable on the fly suspension.

it's happening. get used to it.
  • 5 0
 @captaingillooley: wait! Forget the buggy. Just train the horse to carry you and the bike to the top and then meet you back at the bottom. Best shuttle system ever!
  • 3 0
 @MikerJ: it’s weird because I truly dislike fox but the damper in my 36 has been pretty flawless. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement but it certainly hasn’t failed me.
  • 4 1
 What I've never understood about the e-shock stuff from Lapierre and whatnot. Since the rear shock is based off info from the fork, what if you're manualing or land a jump weird or otherwise hit something with only your rear wheel?
  • 8 1
 two words...................................... analogue.
  • 5 1
 People hate electronics but post Instagram pics and their strava rides on facebook- priceless
  • 3 0
 @conoat: All I could think of reading this is the new Ducati Panigale V4 seems to already have what they're proposing, from the fine people at Ohlins no less.
  • 2 5
 Fucktard alert!
  • 2 2
 @vikb: You won't be riding with them because you'll be too f*cking slow, and bigoted...
  • 2 1
 @allenfstar: So what is it you "Truly dislike" about Fox?
  • 1 0
 @deadmeat25: a lot of it stems from several poor customer service experiences of the years.
  • 3 0
 Wireless brakes... Are you a psychopath?
  • 1 0
 @MikerJ: easy fix: get rid of internal routing. Done! Don't fix a problem by creating a new problem. Effing humans just won't learn.
  • 1 0
 @conoat: yeah my Di2 lasted 6 months on a single charge, and that was during race season. No worries here. It's not like your iPhone where it dies every day.
  • 1 0
 @ibishreddin: All they'd have to do is run a reservoir off the caliper like the TRP cable actuated hydro's and hook that up to a servo to drive it, not sure how they'd get the lever feel right, but it could be done.
Think of how clean the bars could be!
  • 1 0
 I think if I was going to have a battery for shifting it may as well power my dropper and suspension as well. Having everything electric makes much more sense than only having electric shifting. I can't see electric brakes catching on anytime soon though.
  • 1 0
 And down with cotton gin
  • 1 1
 @filmdrew: yeah, thats what happens when you put Di2 on a single speed
  • 1 1
 @Sontator: ?
  • 1 0
 @captaingillooley: We used to say the same about old mobile phones, do you remember that they last at least 5 days without charging?!
  • 44 7
 How long before Specialized finds something to sue over.
  • 37 2
 Never mind specialized. I think it looks a little too much like an iphone
  • 15 1
 too late. I just got a C&D from specialized for commenting here.....
  • 12 1
 "I'm sorry, but you must have known that we own the patent on interacting with technology."
  • 6 0
 @taquitos: Yup, rounded corners. Look out.
  • 2 1
 @taquitos: dude lol.
  • 2 0
 To be fair I would have thought Magura would have been working on something like this. After all they already have wireless operation of damping and saddle height adjustment. It shouldn't take much more than some lines in the software to trigger it all simultaneously. That said, the suspension travel is a different beast. It usually takes some rider weight adjustment to operate these on the fly (like their older Flight Control travel adjust). If you also need to put your weight on the saddle simultaneously to drop that one, it isn't going to make things any easier. Not sure how Shimano is planning to implement this.
  • 24 3
 These developments I can actually get more on board with vs changing already set standards every two years just because.
  • 13 0
 Did anyone read the patent if you get far enough it really sounds like it's for dropping a post that has adjustable angle, suspension adjustment, and everything described in the article but it also sounds like it's designed to work with an ebike motor someone elts smarter than me should read the patent but it sounds like there talking about an ebike that senses your speed adjusts the motor and suspension similarly to autos. The wording is kind of misleading and you can notice that they refer to adjusting when talking about suspension and seat post but assisting the bike in other portions. I can't be the only one who got that vibe after reading it maybe I'm crazy o thought the comment section would be on fire about it. It's a little long the first section doesn't tell you much but the longer descriptions are more useful.
  • 2 0
 @loganflores

The first claim in the patent says it all:

1. A bicycle control device comprising: an electronic controller that controls an operational state of a bicycle component based on at least an operational state of a bicycle electric assist unit, the bicycle component including at least one of an electric suspension and an electric adjustable seatpost.

As far as I can see, all the other claims are rooted in claim 1.

I am an engineer not a patent attorney, but I have been involved in the patent process up to my wallet. After a very quick read it looks to me like this patent covers an integrated suspension control module for a bicycle with an "electrical assist unit", so all the hardcore technophobes can go find something else to worry about.

As an aside, I have just installed an electronic shift group (Campagnolo EPS) on my road bike. It is still too snowy to ride it on the road, but on the test stand I really like what I am seeing. Uniform force to actuate the shifts, multiple shifts by holding the lever in the actuate position, the front derailleur trimming automatically.

And if it fails I can shift manually at a stop. I had to do that last fall when my SRAM shifter on the tandem failed on tour in the middle of nowhere in Scotland. I just don't see what there is to hate about electronic shifters. They will be as good or bad as the design, craftsmanship (stow it JustinTrudeau), and materials allow.
  • 1 0
 @Dangerous-Dan: Well I was referring to sections towards the bottom I think 0076. It refers to a part 40 on the pic it's in the center of the bb maybe it's the power meter though. The way they refer to part 40 throughout seems to reference some sort of motor.
  • 2 0
 @loganflores:
part 40 does indeed reference an electric assist unit.

I copied this from a patent attorney's web page. Not sure if it makes the whole thing more clear, or less:

The claims are the heart of a patent, in that they define the limits of exactly what the patent does, and does not, cover. That is, the patentee has the right to exclude others from making, using or selling, only those things which are described by the claims.

Since the claims all refer to an electric assist unit, it seems to me that this patent is about e-bikes only.
  • 1 2
 @Dangerous-Dan: that was the point I was making nobody had mentioned it. I didn't bring it up to cause a scare in the ebike hate crowd I'm not sure how I feel about them yet my first inclination is usually the freedom of choice I.e it's not for me but who am I to tell you what to do. On the other hand it does effect me in a way so whose rights are more important. the guy wanting a little cheat on the way up at the possible cost of our trail rights I don't know. Time will tell.
  • 1 1
 @loganflores: You started off well, but then said 'cheat" and "trail rights", instantly putting you in the bellend basket.
  • 1 0
 A blocking patent by Shimano... something they have deemed to be beyond a current trade secret. The patent has to be novel and with no prior art available. People like Waki putting out sketches of far out there ideas into the public domain may cause issues for patents in the future as these sketches could be considered prior art.
  • 16 1
 So they are going with rim brakes?
  • 12 0
 Soon no driver required just send the bike down by yourself while you drink pints or film the bike.
  • 9 0
 IT will be soon when your implant gps adjustests you seatpost height , gear selection, suspension dampening moments before the trail features coming up so you have to only focus on shredding ... and your personal drones video the whole thing simultaneously
  • 6 1
 Good thing no gearbox and a motor! Dropping your seat post means going through some rough stuff and adjusting your front and rear suspension all at the same time! That's forward thinking, innovative and with Shimano, it will work! They got to work on that head angle though, not Enduro enough!
  • 5 0
 This thread pains me. For one I welcome a electronic dropper post especially if it works. 2 shimano isn't a dying company and as said above clearly make a lot of money still. If they made a whole system that was electric that controlled it all we'd have some pretty cool stuff come up in the future. They really do make the best stuff. Yes they may not be at the top of the mountain game with "innovation" but there stuff works. Ever try finding anything eagle anywhere in stock?
  • 4 0
 Who in their right mind would imply that Shimano is dying lol
  • 1 0
 truth. my only problem is that i dont want to charge my bike.
  • 1 0
 But you have no problem adjusting cables and checking air pressure in your dropper every ride? Charging is a LOT easier and to do that 3-5 times a year Instead of every time you ride @demoflight:
  • 1 0
 @freeridejerk888: that's valid. it's probably just because i'm more used to it. i also havent gotten around to getting a dropper yet, though i do want one eventually i think. i'm not familiar with the power the system uses but it would be cool if it could charge from riding. i understand that could cause rolling/pedaling resistance but realistically it wouldnt have to be creating resistance all the time. dont get me wrong, i love how precise and quick the shifting is and that all you have to do is press a button. i'll probably end up getting it and have a cable backup that i keep in my car. i just like the idea of not having to think about it and all i need is a shock pump and to mess with the barrel knob.
  • 4 0
 Whenever I watch bike trade show videos like this, I'm amazed at the lack of polish from the product managers. It's like they were all surprised that they'd be expected to explain the rationale behind what they sell.
  • 5 2
 Do we want to be reliant on Batteries to MTB? Yeah i have a road bike (dotn start) with DI2 and in the cold I ran out of power and got stuck in big ring. I dont want that on my MTB, suspension that dont work when it runs out of battery or seat post stuck in high position. More stuff to go wrong, mechanical analog all the way. It would have to have spectacular capabilities like terrain prediction for suspension. But it would end up like driver aid on f12 car. the skill is in the human feeling and driving the thing. We need manufactures to solve actual problems like DH tires that dont stop greg minnaar winning a race. It like the car industry with reverse parking cameras, they reduce the visibility in the back so they can sell you a screen you look in the car at to reverse... so you are not looking at the direction you are going and have no idea of scale or peripheral vision. So not sure if its going to actually solve any of my MTB problems?
  • 1 1
 "Yeah i have a road bike (dotn start) with DI2 and in the cold I ran out of power and got stuck in big ring. I dont want that on my MTB"
Di2 has an indicator for when it is running out of charge... when your car's low fuel light comes on, do you ignore it and go for a drive, then complain when you run out of fuel?
  • 1 0
 @Clarkeh: In a car the range does not change massively and there are filling station on route. now where to top your power up when you are out on the trail and you reserve drops of quickly.
  • 1 0
 @biglev:
I just bought a aftermarket add on electrical shifter for my tandem. It uses small cells and I can easily carry a spare set with me.
  • 3 0
 Kill it with fire! Seems like patent squatting to me. File a patent for something now that you don't really have immediate interest in perusing, then sue the pants off someone that tries it before you. Well played. Now stop it.
  • 12 8
 bikes should never have electronics. mtb is about being outside and away from technology we shouldn't bring it with us out to the trails. shitmano
  • 13 2
 Ya, cuz there’s no “technology” in your current bike. Cmon
  • 8 2
 But it's all mechanical. There's a big difference.
  • 1 0
 I thought so too, but ultimately put Di2 in the same basket with hydro brakes and dropper posts... unneeded but great to have.
  • 1 0
 I like the idea of improvement so I think it's nice to have the option for an electronicly activated drivetrain. I've read so many articles about Di2 that I think if I had the money I would buy one to give it a try... but still would have the wire "monkey adjustable" drivetrain just in case.. now.. here's a question to one of the points of the video: how come no one worried about still having an option when 27.5 hit the market?.. if 27.5 is an improvement great... but the 26" option is gone. I hope it doesn't go down the same road when electronic shifting becomes the benchmark... I would still like to have the OPTION of the three-buck wire activated drivetrain...
  • 2 1
 Dam, I was getting all excited over the fact that maybe there could be a 12 speed cassette with real range in that patent filing but item 26B looks like at most and 11-28 cassette! At least it's only got a single chain ring up front.......
  • 9 0
 How about 14 speeds? Shimano patented that back in 1999: www.google.com/patents/US5954604
  • 6 1
 @mikekazimer: Ah yes - I remember reading that. Although Shimano's development is like steering the Titanic with a broken oar. I have a feeling by the time it comes out I will be a retired and riding an e-bike on rail grades............ All I want is 12 for now!
  • 3 1
 I have word from several Colorado 'in the know' peeps about Shimano 12-speed debuting soon. Although, we all know what the rumor mill can provide regarding accuracy.
  • 7 2
 @bman33: i have barely managed to jump on 11 speeds thinking of moving back to 10 and now this???
  • 6 0
 @WAKIdesigns: im going full zee on my patrol. Holy shit i have a commonality with you
  • 1 0
 It’s coming, along with a new free hub standard
  • 1 0
 x@WAKIdesigns: I was 100% Shimano since 1990's (I am 43 years old). I tried the old Gripshit and hated it back then. My new ride has SRAM X01 Eagle I bought on a bro deal. Excellent kit. Solid, crisp shifting. And the extra super low gear/ability to run a larger front ring is very welcome while climbing out here way above sea level and the long descents. My home is over a mile high. My regular trails are 6000-8000 feet (1800-2400 meters). Is it needed at everyone's trails? No, but it sure is nice here.
I am eagerly awaiting Shimano's answer since it will not doubt be solid, and most likely cheaper than SRAM alternatives.
  • 5 0
 @pargolf8: I just went back to a 10-speed setup also. I put a Zee groupset on my daily driver. In addition, there's some interesting 10-speed cassettes available now. 9/42 - 11/45 - 11/46
  • 2 0
 @bman33: Shimano publicly debuted the new Ultegra R8070 (Di2 hydraulic... road kit) in summer 2016 and it's still not readily available. Anything "rumored" has to be at least a decade out.
  • 1 0
 @fullfacemike: Well could be and I did qualify my statement about it being a rumor. That said, I herd this several times from industry people and not just average riders.
That said, my money is on a year tops. A decade out who knows what will be the average drivetrain
  • 2 0
 @bman33: I guess my point is that you're right, they probably will announce it within the next few years. It will be a couple years until it's actually available for purchase though and it'll only be at the XTR level. It'll be another year or more until they announce XT then tack on one or two until that becomes available so...
Best case: 4-5 years
Worst case: a decade
  • 1 0
 @fullfacemike: Put that group on my wife's rain bike. shit is awesome. Hauling ass, 1 finger pull in the front brake and you can ride a nose manual....on a road bike.
  • 7 0
 Hydraulic shifting, God save us. Hydro Disc brakes are a necessary evil, but then I need to deal with Reverb and now you want me to bleed my derailleur which is also coupled to electronics which are already a bigger hassle the mechanicals... please Die2
  • 1 0
 @kwapik:
I ride my SLX 1x10 for 4 years now with 80€ spent in cassettes and chains- still works flawless.
Currently with sunrace 11-42 and the oneup upgrade for the der.

Currently deciding between Zee 1x10 or SLX 1x11 for my new bike...
  • 2 0
 @NotNamed: I personally didn't like Zee on 11-40 cassette, I felt it's pain when shifting to 40. Dunno how it shifts to 42. But maybe it was my setup. Personally I find my 1x11 XTR nowhere better than 10sp SramX0 shifter coped with X-9 type 2 rear mech. I am actually waiting with my cash in my teeth for a x-9 type 2 mid cage to pop up on classifieds. That is hands down best drive train I have ever owned. I would never buy XTR I got it. If you go for 10speed Shimano I would still recommend you to go for XT instead of SLX/Zee since it is a sturdier construction both for paralelogram and for the cage, then pulleys are also better - so you will actually save yourself some money in the end, and more probably than not, save yourself some hammering it back to relative true. I have bent 2 10sp SLX and only one could be saved. The cage on SLX, Zee is a pain in the arse to get right after it gets bent since the chain will keep on dropping between the pulley and the cage. Anyways If I was getting a 10sp drivetrain now, I'd go for Sram. My x-9 type 2 went strong for 4 years and 2012+ X9 shifters were great too. The Achilles heel of all Shimanos is the connector between the hanger and the main body. It get fkd up by the bike just falling over, like to happened to my 9sp Saint which had a rather thick one.
  • 5 1
 0:10 in the video. i dont think anyone wants to continue a life with herpes
  • 20 5
 Erm... if you don’t have herpes it says something about the quality of your sex life
  • 11 6
 @WAKIdesigns: no, it says something about the quality of his partners, and your comment says the opposite about the quality of yours! :-D
  • 11 3
 @conoat: so you hang out with virgins aye?
  • 1 0
 what happens when you aren't pedaling and try to e-shift? or even two or three shifts without pedaling, or if limit screws or b-tension screw aren't set up properly, does it explode? honest question. (i apologize for not reading through all the comments before asking)
  • 5 3
 Same thing that happens when you aren't pedaling and try to normal shift. Di2 has no limit screws, it calibrates itself.
  • 2 0
 @TheRaven: thats not true, Di2 has limit screws, and requires an initial setup/calibration.
  • 3 0
 @TheRaven: so you are saying it's so advanced it installs itself on the bike and then sets itself up and then works flawlessly until it needs to read calibrate itself. This sounds like fake news to me
  • 1 0
 @weebleswobbles: No. Didn't say that. At all.

So yeah I guess that would make it fake news - since it doesn't exist.
  • 2 0
 Fox and shimano have always been in bed fighting off the sram/rockshox/avid machine

Would not surprise me if shimano is planning to integrate and provide batteries and stuff for live valve
  • 1 0
 I love the idea that the rear mech is better because it doesnt have a cable, but... there is a cable going to the battery.

The benefit of electronic shifting is... mmmm.. there is a battery to worry about, environmental impact of battery and battery disposal, additional supply chain constraints (probably sea freight compared to air freight for no batteries), additional change control, more parts to fail (lower reliability), more expensive... looks like marketing v engineering. (I work in R&D so know the battle all too well).
  • 1 0
 @betsie:
There doesn't need to be a cable between the shifter and the derailleur. RF for short distances can work well with a fairly low power consumption. With an RF system, the shifter is 2 buttons in a case with a small RF circuit.

It is much simpler than the abomination I currently have on my bars. My SRAM shifter failed on Skye last fall, and since it was not Shimano I couldn't find a replacement since the one bike shop that might have had one was closed.

Using a removable cell adds some complication, like sealing against water intrusion, but allows the components to be shipped and locally sourced cells added. Li Ion cells can be safely disposed of, and much of the material can be reclaimed.

And on a long travel suspension frame, an RF based shifter eliminates possible issues with cable flex and pinch. The cost is higher, and reliability will depend on the design and workmanship of the manufacturer.
  • 1 0
 @Dangerous-Dan: BLE can communicate over significantly longer distances than from the mech to the shifter. I could guess which IC they use for their BLE. Between 2 companies but based on their developmemt time I would be pretty confident who they use. The BLE will have a separate registration for every country they sell in which costs money and conforming to Red will have just cost Shimano a few dollars for a low volume niche part which the consumer will be paying for. As for rechargeable batterie's, there is lots that goes on in the background that consumer's don't realise. I failed 5 supplier who wanted to supply us a battery for a medium volume medical device. Max 1 million units per year currently. As for sealing. It looks like they might have an external battery for capacity, sealing is not an issue and makes the design more simple in some respects as it frees up valuable real estate for the motor and controller which will be a basic motor and drive I would guess.
  • 1 0
 I read the article, and also watched the vid at the end...

First on the article, it could lead to something big... or, it could be a matter of "patent it just in case someone else goes down this path", and they may have decided not to, possibly. Either way, really neat little blub, I love stuff like this.

Regarding the vid:

I just wanna say, I love what KS is and has been doing as a company. They started out making cheap parts en mass quantities as recently as 1991... look at them now, only 27 years! They've been a great alternative at a nice price point for a while now, and they're rolling out with new stuff year in and year out- keeping up with the "big dogs". I have a lot of respect for them as a company. I hope they're able to grow their market share so they can keep coming out with nice stuff.
  • 1 0
 " But getting those suspension components to "talk" to non-suspension components? That's a new trick, if not a logical progression. That patent suggests it may soon also be a reality."

... and ideas for connecting suspension with dropper adjustment with the possibility to link it to gear selection/cadence/...based on a logic have been pointed out in the public domain for at least the same time as electronic adjusted suspension, gearing and droppers exist.
  • 4 1
 Nice video title... I swear I've heard the Inside Line Somewhere before... Oh, right....
  • 6 6
 Love my Di2 love doing nothing to it but lube and recharge every 2 months. About to experiment with 2x 22/34 11-30 rear there by moving the weight back to the middle of the bike and having synchro shift do the work.
Leaving me with 13 gears to work with.
  • 26 5
 That's two more things than I do to my non-electronic shifters.
  • 16 3
 huh, you know what i havent had to do? charge my drivetrain...
  • 4 5
 Well, in fairness, I haven't touched my cable actuated XT drive train in 6 months... But I hear you. I'm not a fan of e-bikes, but e-shifting is cool I guess.
  • 11 2
 @skelldify: you havent lubed your chain in 2 months?
  • 10 1
 @skelldify: You don't lubricate your shifting?
  • 8 1
 @pinhead907: in the movie Icarus, the one about doping and Grigory Rodchenkov, that journalist is competing in the Haute Route and his Di2 goes flat. That is enough to put me off.
  • 6 6
 @adrennan: know what I don't do? turn barrel adjusters or worry about ever changing cables. Also can go from wet to dusty gravel road with no worry about grit and water fouling my shifting.
  • 2 2
 I am obsessed with shift quality to the point a hanging shift can sometimes take my focus from trail to bike. If you aren't that particular then the price is prob insane.
  • 5 2
 Sounds like way too much. I'll keep my mechanical mech. Thanks
  • 2 0
 @reverend27: i would say i have to touch barrel adjusters less often than you are charging. during proper riding season here, i would say breaking derailleurs is the most common reason i have to touch my drivetrain.
  • 4 14
flag weebleswobbles (Feb 13, 2018 at 15:26) (Below Threshold)
 @reverend27: you kind reverend sir sound like a complete idiot.
  • 2 7
flag nannoo (Feb 13, 2018 at 15:39) (Below Threshold)
 @reverend27: yeah you sound like a muppet
  • 8 5
 @weebleswobbles: and you sir have a history of dumb arguments and calling names in the pb forum.
You are so preoccupied with hating ebike that you hate anything you might deem loosely connected to it.

You basically have created right-wing bike politics.
Only if there was a fox News equal for mtb news...
  • 3 13
flag weebleswobbles (Feb 13, 2018 at 15:46) (Below Threshold)
 @reverend27: I do? I have? You are right about only one thing.. I hate e-mopeds. PERIOD. You think you know me and my political views? I don't mix emopeds or politricks with my mtb. Thanks for trying. Cheers
  • 4 3
 @weebleswobbles: the only comfort I have is knowing you will swallow ebike till make you sick in the face and there will nothing you can do about it.

They are popular and becoming even more so around the world.

And by the way try sticking a stick in my spokes and see what happens.
  • 1 6
flag weebleswobbles (Feb 13, 2018 at 15:55) (Below Threshold)
 @reverend27: and you talk about dumb arguments? I rest my case.
  • 4 0
 @reverend27: @weebleswobbles

I don't have the money for an electronic shifting system, but my trip in the ambulance and 7 hours in the ICU when a ghost shift at full sprint sent me OTB into a concrete curb tells me I might be tempted by one, if only to avoid the pain of a shoulder blade broken in 3 places and face like Frankenstein's panda.

I can dream, maybe when my teenage daughter stops spending all my money on her education!
  • 2 9
flag weebleswobbles (Feb 13, 2018 at 15:58) (Below Threshold)
 @orientdave: ghost shifting? Sorry man, Sounds like you need to talk to your mechanic about that.
  • 4 2
 @weebleswobbles: yes politics as in making your own name and definition for something.
Sort of like when a crazy chic attacks a bus driver and is labeled a feminist on fox news.
But in reality she's just a crazy bitch.

Clearly a ebike isn't a moped anymore then a motorized shopping cart is a car.

But labeling it that helps you justify yourself.
  • 1 0
 @weebleswobbles: That would be me!!
  • 1 3
 @reverend27: hey you ride your mtb with all the electronic gizmos. I'll ride my mtb without. You ride yours as fast as your electronic shifting will allow you to go for as long as it will allow you to. Id wager that would be far enough away from me.
  • 1 3
 @orientdave: ouch mate. That sounds painful. I hope you heal up quickly and get back on the bike!
  • 1 0
 @weebleswobbles: It was last year, so all is cool these days! I should really oil that shifter cable more often! Enjoy the day.
  • 1 2
 @orientdave: would have enjoyed my day a little more, but the trails around these parts are closed. Too much wet. Bummer
  • 3 0
 My mechanical shifting is zero hassle for 6 years, I do nothing until it sucks then 5 minutes later a new chunk of housing is on $3 has been spent!
  • 1 0
 @bman33: No? Is that something I'm supposed to do? I used to, but it just seemed to collect more dust.
  • 2 1
 @reverend27: Running full length housing with proper lubrication once every six months I have never once had to deal with fouling of my shifting despite creek crossings, mud, dust... Standard XTR F/R and I can't even tell it is shifting unless I am under too much load.

At the same time, I wouldn't mind trying electronic shifting, seems cool. The problems with gear housing are pretty much gone with decent housing running full length and coated cables, though.
  • 1 0
 @mfranzen: Been running full length housing for years. Even back when all the bikes had a break in housing and exposed the cable, I just cable tied the housing to the frame.
  • 2 1
 @bman33: Same! I usually drilled out the housing stops and did it that way, though. Definitely made life easier and shifting much improved.
  • 1 2
 @reverend27: I created right wing bike politics? All by myself? If you scroll through the pb forum you will notice at the very end is where the non biking related topics are. This is where you and your e moped belong.. in the non biking category
  • 2 0
 I have tried di2 at the shimano booth before. It was nice, but not really nicer than a mechanical system. The price and ergonomics put me off. You can't get the FIREBOLT (!) shifters in ispec. That's a big no no for me. Plus Santos guys say, if you run full length housing you just need to change the inner like once every two years or something.
  • 1 0
 Looks like it takes into account the gear ratio and adjusts the suspension for rider input too.
Higher gearing, seat up (uphill climbing) stiffer shock?
Low gearing, saddle down (dh) shock open...
  • 4 0
 It's a smart bike For fat dumb people
  • 3 0
 All this shit sounds like extra cost that I'm not willing to pay unless it's actually giving game changing performance.
  • 3 0
 Vernon: Why electronic shifting?
FSA guy: Errrr..... it's the way the industry is going.

Sounds legit.
  • 4 0
 only works when your connected to wifi though. plus u gotta sign up for their spam emails
  • 1 0
 Been saying something like this was on the way, an intelligent bike that knows where you are on the trail an the conditions also the effort a rider is putting in an sets suss tune, geo an gearing
  • 1 1
 Shimano plays the long game. You can bet there will be some cross tech with mix and match mechanical and electronic systems. There was a seatpost rumor a while back and that silent hub? I see the ebike world being all over this. Big S will also have amazing stuff without a battery.
I'm all in for Team Blue and Team Red ,Box, Pinion, MRP and all the rest.
  • 3 0
 meh. i prefer bikes to be strictly mechanical, theres something pure about them because of it.
  • 1 0
 Oh my Lord, I really like the ker-klunk sound of the next gear, kinda warms my heart knowing that the bike shifted. But most of all what would I do with the 12 Jagwire inners I got on sale?
  • 1 1
 Just let us put this micro chip in your neck..doesn't hurt at all. You have now been assimilated by the e-moped borg. Now just think about shifting and the e-moped borg has already shifted and also already rammed shimanos e-dropper 200mm into your ass.
  • 3 0
 Forget electronic shifting, I want to hear about that 1 x 3.5 drivetrain!
  • 2 0
 The only thing I’m interested in is wireless Di2. Do that and I’ll consider it for my next drivetrain. Road or mountain.
  • 2 2
 This is most definitely for an E-MTB...
From the patent "The electric assist unit 40 includes an assist motor (not shown) and assists the rotation of the cranks 24 using the assist motor."
  • 2 1
 The way for Shimano to make this work really well and as quickly as possible is to roll out the whole bike from the frame to the suspension. Its time they went full moto.
  • 1 0
 Forget this, SOMEONE NEEDS TO PERFECT THE DROPPER POST!!! there is so much room to improve but no one is taking the ball! Reliability, durability is the main issue.
  • 1 0
 Alas, touching the front brake lever will add compression in the fork to avoid brake-dive. Oh eair, that can already be done mechanically..
  • 1 0
 Perpetual dynamo charge system with mag-lev floating brake system. Add in a flux capacitor for a pedal assist on the crankshaft - so high tech, it makes my mouth drool!
  • 1 1
 I would love an electronic dropper that could index height and angle the seat. Add a short seatpost insertion length and it would have my money.
  • 1 1
 Climb, comfort/cruise, trail and descend on an indexed up/down arrow button. Shut up and take my money.
  • 1 0
 Coretion SRAM , Mavic made the first wireless shifter in 1999 and it was caled Mektronic .
  • 2 0
 Awesome! I look forward to the new technology making my bike obsolete
  • 1 0
 I would love an electric wireless dropper that's affordable. I hate internal cable routing
  • 1 1
 A nice clean bike without all the cables and I get to keep all the function? Yes, please. I still want the control, so no auto anything.
  • 2 0
 Shimano bets on the wrong ponies...again.
  • 1 0
 Sounds like the automotive industry with sports cars and drive select modes
  • 1 1
 Patent drawings always make things look like they were designed in the 19th century. Or maybe Shimano just ripped off another Nikola Tesla invention
  • 3 1
 Acceleromator....that hurt reading.
  • 1 0
 Would work, if was some way to keep your chain clean, Well there is, but for some reason that is not going to happen?
  • 1 1
 this is what ive been waiting for. the only thing that'd get me away from SRAM eagle.. is full electronic. gears, dropper, suspension damping.. so that ive zero fiddling.
  • 1 0
 That Shimano dude said it all in the video. Fox shares the same technology...
  • 1 1
 I’m on board if we can standardise on routing all the wires though the handlebars and stem, nice neat handlebars with only brake hoses would be lovely.
  • 3 1
 As she said: Cool, but not needed Wink
  • 2 0
 Honestly as much as I've ridden bikes, I usually just end up removing things, and dicking around at the end of the day. Maybe I feel there are no competitive parameters to adhere to, like acceleration times, or lap times, or bunny hop heights. Sure I watch Danny Macaskil, and think, "damn he's good", but it's not like, "damn I have to be that good too".
  • 1 0
 So much electricity for an outdoor activity. Imagine your bike suddenly shorting out after a heavy down pour and burns you.
  • 1 0
 Electronic what? No thanks!!!! I’ll stick with my cable actuated post, gears and the turn dials on my suspension.
  • 1 0
 NO, NO, and NO! Stainless steel all the way.
  • 4 2
 Sounds cool go Shimano.
  • 1 0
 I dig the Rockshox Mag21 suspension fork
  • 3 2
 Money destroying cycling...
  • 2 2
 If there was no money in mountain biking, very few mountain bikes would exist. Unless you are welding your own frames, you should reconsider your opinion.
  • 1 0
 I think there's an app for that...
  • 1 1
 SRAM must be 28.99 percent disappointed they got Trump'd by a newly dropped standard.
  • 1 0
 Will it have automatically adjusting tire pressure?
  • 1 2
 Looks like road bike geo with an impossible suspension system. The chain looks all wrong. What’s up with the rim brakes??
  • 1 1
 Smart e-bikes will take over the world.
  • 1 1
 Is that the latest GeoMetron?
  • 1 0
 Looks like a sess...
  • 1 0
 Look like a session
  • 1 1
 it better have bluetooth. i don't buy anything with out bluetooth
  • 1 1
 Will they have 29plus?
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