Shimano FCC Application Hints at New Wireless Groupset

Feb 1, 2021
by James Smurthwaite  

CyclingTips is reporting that Shimano has been granted two wireless communication applications that hint at cable-free transmission coming from the Japanese groupset giant sometime this year.

Shimano posted two applications late in January, WY7-3GK1 for a rear derailleur and WY7-927A for a wireless module (shifter). Unfortunately, the juiciest parts of the applications, including pictures of the components being approved, are hidden behind a confidentiality agreement between FCC (Federal Communications Commission) and Shimano but there's still plenty we can glean from the news.

What we already know

So far, Shimano has never released a wireless groupset for on or off-road uses. Shimano made mountain biking's first foray into electronic shifting with Di2, a wired system that was first released at XTR level in February 2015 with the XT version following up 22 months later in November 2016. The system never massively took off and although it was being raced by XC World Cup riders, you didn't often see it on many punters' bikes. This is backed up by the fact we're more than two years into the current XTR's lifespan and it remains mechanical only.

2018 Shimano XTR Launch in Crested Butte Colorado USA
We're more than two years into XTR's lifespan and there's no electronic version, could that be about to change?

The next big shakeup came in February 2019 when SRAM released its wireless AXS system. SRAM had been supplying the wireless eTap drivetrain on road bikes for a number of years at this point but this was the first time fully wireless shifting had been brought to mountain bikes.

With SRAM way ahead on the cable-free front, it seems very likely that Shimano has been working on a project for a few years and we're becoming more and more convinced that Shimano is likely to drop some sort of wireless transmission this year. This is backed up by patents for both a wireless Dura Ace (road) groupset and an electronic dropper post filed by Shimano in the past three months.

What can we tell from the application?

As we said above, the confidentiality agreement between Shimano and the FCC prevents us from seeing exactly what's going on here, but there are still some clues scattered throughout. Firstly, the only things that are approved are a derailleur and a module. This crucially means no front derailleur and hints at the possibility this could be a wireless version of XTR and not a road groupet. Yes, some road bikes are now going down the 1x drivetrain route, but the pro riders have only dabbled with the setup and with limited success. We can't see Shimano launching what would be a top of the range product without racers showing it off at the highest level.

Other things to note are that both components work off the same frequency (2,478 Mhz) so are very likely part of the same product range. They also operate with both Bluetooth, which will most likely be used for software updates and setting control, and ANT+for communication between devices.

When can we expect more news?

Could Shimano's centenary herald the arrival of new technologies?

Well, the earliest we are guaranteed to know more is in 180 days from now (July 26), when the confidentiality agreement lifts between Shimano and the FCC. However, Cycling Tips are also speculating that something could come sooner. Shimano is celebrating its 100th anniversary in March 2021 and has been building up to it with a series of videos and a mini-site, with a countdown to... something. What better way to celebrate that anniversary with a product that takes it from a mechanical to wireless era?

Alternatively, if a new wireless XTR groupset is inbound, we've no doubt that Shimano supported racers will be testing it out between now and the race season. We'll be keeping a close eye on pro's bikes between now and the start of the season to see if we can spot anything out of the ordinary. We reached out to Shimano for more information but they told us that they, "keep tight-lipped on rumors and suggestions". We'll update you with more info as it comes in.


234 Comments

  • 167 26
 Shimano needs to fix their sticky seizing clutch mechanism in their 12 speed derailleurs first before anything else.
  • 55 12
 The sticky clutch is the least thing I would worry about their 12 speed drivetrains. You can use PM600 military grease on the clutch band and seal. It works very well and protects it against water and dirt.
  • 49 39
 I agree. That and the wandering bite point have put me off Shimano and I've been a hardcore user since Zee came out. Just now I'm more excited by the prospect of a GX level AXS than an XTR level Di3.

If they could sort the shitty clutch (or at least seal it properly at the back) and drop the Di3 to SLX level then I might come back, but keep my Sram brakes.
  • 66 11
 @OneTrustMan: You can but you shouldnt have to. Do you disassemble new shoes and double stitch the material so they are good enough to handle walking in them?
  • 40 47
flag AlanMck (Feb 1, 2021 at 10:17) (Below Threshold)
 True indeed. I found it fairly ridiculous that 12sp Deore won product of the year. The mech is possibly the worst component I have ever used. Just shows that reviews should be met with healthy scepticism.
  • 22 3
 @AlanMck: Hellz yeah. I had a first gen Monarch Plus RC3 that made the Dirt 100 as a "Super reliable coil like shock" and it was the biggest piece of shit ever.

Weird about Shimano 12 speed mechs though. The clutch is the exact same part as was used since inception and I never had issues with it on 10 or 11 speed mechs. That's why I believe the issue is with sealing at the back, not the clutch itself.
  • 42 4
 AFAIK the clutch mechanism in Shimano 12 is the exact same as the 11s groups. It's three screws and a dab of grease and you're on your way. No complaints from me.

This weekend I just rebuilt an M8000 RD and an M8120 RD. What is different is the exposure and wear on the plate axle. There was significant corrosion on the M8120 mech (3 months old) while the M8000 mech looked fine (3 years old). This is where I believe the 12s mech design is flawed. The "sticking" (inability to upshift, primarily out of the 51T) is, on a surface level, "solved" by loosening or fully turning off the clutch. The clutch however is not the culprit. The corrosion on the plate axle prevents the movement (page 35 of Shimano service doc DM-MARD001-03) and this of course increasing cassette and jockey wheel wear. Would love to hear other theories on the subject however.
  • 9 2
 @heissescheisse: if the plate axle that you are referring to is the spindle that the clutch rotates on yes, I agree 100%.
That is the issue I had with mine. I ended up removing the cage and then oiling that spindle while spinning it on the end of a drill. It got better but it was still worse than a three year old m8000 or five year old Zee. Whether that is down to materials or sealing, I’m not sure. What I am sure about is that I don’t want another 12 speed Shimano mech.
  • 6 2
 @heissescheisse: Yea agree completely. Also the spring between the parallelogram and the cage is terribly sealed as well. After 2 months in winter it is full of crap.
  • 3 0
 My new bike is coming in a few months (hopefully) with a 12spd Shimano group (XT RD). If I grease the clutch properly from the start, clean and grease it regularly (I barely ever ride in the wet other than commuting, and i'm not gonna use this bike for commuting) am I gonna have issues?

I have a ZEE RD which also gets a bit sticky after a while, although it doesn't cause any noticeable issues when i'm actually riding the bike.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Yea it is axle that seats the sprag. I sanded mine down, soaked it in FluidFilm, and reassembled with WPL grease. We shall see.

Also worth mentioning I spray my bike off a few times a week with residential water supply (4.5 bar), so shame on me. Not quite pressure washing, but .... yea.
  • 1 1
 The clutch mechanism is the same for the entire group of clutch mechanisms since the 10-spd lineup. The grease that's used needs to be maintained and it's a special grease/oil that is applied to make the clutch slip and/or have enough friction. I had the same issue after running the XTR 986 derailleur and tried applying the Finish Line lithium grease. I thought that grease was slick but it didn't work. What worked was applying some WPL Fork Boost oil to the clutch where it's necessary. Worked like a charm, but I think it may be too slick for the clutch. I've never had the clutch seize since. (Fork Boost oil is an amazing semi-thick oil and it will lubricate anything that has become stuck or requires less friction).
  • 3 2
 Yeah, not fond of the Shimano clutch either because it starts to creak over time. Took me a long time to figure out where the creak was and kept thinking it was the BB. However, you can take it apart and re-grease and it works fine. Pretty easy, but you just have to do it about once a year.
  • 7 25
flag Thelittleweasel (Feb 1, 2021 at 11:21) (Below Threshold)
 @jaame: you do know that slx=nx, right, bc xo1 and xx1 are both at xtr's level, so gx is the sram equal to xt, not slx.
  • 4 1
 @tacklingdummy: Funny thing you mentioned that. I had a creaking noise on my XTR 10-spd drivetrain that I thought was my rear linkage or my seat. I finally realized it was the creaking from the XTR cassette! The rivets creaked like crazy! I had to put some grease or anti-seize to stop the creaking, but it's short lived. Later, I found out that all of Shimano's 10-spd cassettes (XTR and Dura-Ace) had the same rivet issues on the largest carriage arms. So, I replaced the cassette with an XT cassette and the creaking went away. For the rear derailleur clutch or other issues, if you're experiencing issues with contamination issues or no grease at all, check the seal. And yes, the derailleur and all of the drivetrain should be maintained regularly. It's not like the derailleur is completely sealed. The cool thing with Shimano's derailleur is that it can be maintained and small parts can be replaced. Imagine if you have to do this for SRAM's clutch derailleur? You can't, you pretty much have to spend several hundred dollars for a new one.
  • 7 20
flag bulletbassman (Feb 1, 2021 at 11:36) (Below Threshold)
 @Thelittleweasel: no. Nx is equivalent to deore. Gx to slx. Xt to x01 and xtr to xx1. At least when it comes
To drivetrains.
  • 2 1
 Regrease It a lot came dry
  • 5 0
 @heissescheisse: thanks for the page 35 pointer.

I have a RD8000 that only shifts smoothly with the clutch turned down. It was like that from new, at first I thought I'd damaged a cable on assembly.

It's on a hardtail that gets an easylife so no clutch is no problem but it's still not really acceptable.
  • 3 0
 @heissescheisse: I solved the issue of it not shifting out of the 51T gear by cleaning and greasing clutch as mentioned but more importantly, using wet chain lube to lube every pin in the parallelogram. Basically the tension in the chain caused by the clutch increases the friction in every pin. If they are not lubed, the spring won't have enough force to overcome the friction, and the derailleur won't move. The tension in the chain is caused by the slight chain growth when you slightly compress you suspension to the sag point. If the clutch doesn't break free, it creates a lot of tension in the chain, which binds the parallelogram. That is why turning off the clutch also solves it.
  • 2 1
 @CSharp: So satisfying to find and solve the creak problem. Lol.

For me, the issue has been the clutch and not the seal with XT derailleurs. Have had several of them. I ride a lot and the grease just wears out. I'm a big fan of Shimano, the action of the shifting is excellent. However for drivetrains, SRAM has a slight edge for me. I haven't had any problems with SRAM derailleurs, except a little creaking at the pivots, but just a little cleaning and some light lubricant easily solves it.
  • 1 0
 @drc99: Are you sure? I thought the spring doesn't have to overcome the tension of the clutch, since there is a one way needle bearing in there, and because of that the clutch only engages while the cage rotates forward. I thought when you shift from a bigger cog to a smaller cog, the clutch is completely disengaged. Yeah when you sit on the bike and sag the rear suspension you engage the clutch, but it should disengage as soon as the rear suspension stops moving. If it doesn't "break free", there is a problem with that needle bearing and/or that "plate axle" that was mentioned already. The spring shouldn't have to fight the clutch.
  • 1 0
 @HollyBoni: It does and then it re-engages. Kind of cool how it works. But it needs to have the right kind of grease/oil or the clutch becomes stuck.
  • 4 3
 Shimano's own recommendation is to regrease the thing every few weeks. No thanks.

@drc99 nice tips.
  • 8 0
 @jaame: that f*cking wandering bits point has been driving me made for years. How have they not addressed and fixed the problem in so many years.
  • 3 1
 @CustardCountry: it’s weird isn’t it. My old Zee and XT levers never did it. Every bike review with Shimano brakes since 2014 has complained about it and yet it’s still not fixed by all accounts. My last bike had Guide RE brakes and they were faultless... could do with a bite point adjuster though.
  • 2 2
 @Riggbeck: There's a youtube video of a guy who was testing to see if the new 12-spd shifters would work well with the 11-spd drivetrain and if the 11-spd RD-M8000 would shift properly with the 51T cassette. As it turns out, the 12-spd rear derailleur is totally redesigned to run the larger teeth on the cassette. You'd have to run a longer cable in order to adjust the RD-M8000 derailleur and adjust the B-screw in order to run the bigger range cassettes. The 11-spd Shimano derailleurs were made to run up to 46 to 48 teeth cassette rings. Anything bigger than that, the newer Shimano 12-spd derailleurs have no issues. Supposedly, Shimano 12-spd XTR shifters can work with ANY 11-spd and 12-spd drivetrain. There's a switch on the back of the 12-spd XTR right shifter. Talk about versatility or what!
  • 1 0
 @heissescheisse: 100% correct sir.
  • 3 1
 @CSharp: despite popular belief not all XTR shifters have that switch!
  • 2 0
 @seekanddestroy: The latest 12-spd XTR right shifter has it. The older XTR 11/10-spd don't have it except the 10-spd XTR front shifter has the 2x/3x switch.
  • 2 1
 @Thelittleweasel: I don't know why you downvoted but this is the true name to name comparison
  • 2 0
 @CSharp: Some of them yes. But there is a version that Shimano has put out of the 12 speed shifter without the 11/12 speed switch. You'll likely see more of it, because its cheaper to produce.
  • 1 0
 Just had my XT clutch serviced. I was really surprised at this issue too.
  • 1 0
 @HollyBoni: sorry for the confusion. By overcoming the spring I meant the spring in the parallelogram that pulls the derailleur to a harder gear.
  • 1 0
 @AlanMck: have you seen sx??
  • 7 2
 When I said I had issues with shimano 11 and 12 speed xt and went back to GX/X01 people downvoted me to oblivion. Good to see I'm not alone anymore.

I don't have any reason to have faith in 12s deore or the newer brakes as I've been screwed on the last 2 iterations
  • 1 0
 @drc99: Appreciate the useful perspective in this dumpster fire of a comment thread. I think you have got it.
  • 5 1
 @UtahBikeMike: yeah, the Shimano faithful can be relentless. It does shift awesome, until it doesn’t.
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: correct, you can use 12 sp rd with 11 sp shifter on wide range 11 sp cassette; or any of other suitable combinations depending on your goals; not sure how it is practical
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: I know from experience that the M7000 front shifter has two clicks (for a 3x), but only one click is used on a 2x setup.
  • 1 0
 Oh man, I’m glad this isn’t just me. What an appalling piece of design > in summer, it barely manages 10 days in the dusty conditions with squeaking like a Walmart special.
  • 1 0
 Honestly, who you gonna call? Someone who invested everything they have into designing, a derailleur, and probably almost died, going to school so hard, to get in the position. Or someone who it probably is the 5th thing on their mind, behind, Becky, and Veronica, and, beer, and McDonald's?
  • 1 0
 You can do the clutch service within less than 10 minutes, without even taking the derailleur of the bike.
Here is an instructional video www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztf38cO2Ej4&t
  • 2 0
 @jaame: the last set of reliable Shimano brakes I had with no wandering bite point were either original Saint or SLX. I wish I’d never ‘upgraded’ to the newer XT and Zee brakes.
  • 4 7
 @bulletbassman:
Deore = SX
SLX = NX
XT = GX
XTR = XO1.
XX1 no shimano equivalent.
  • 4 3
 @thenotoriousmic: I thought they were staggered myself. They’re not really equivalents are they? The SX that was on my Capra was definitely a lot lower quality than the old Deore that was on my Mega.
Perhaps:
SX
Deore
NX
SLX
GX
XT
at the bottom of the scale. Also part by part there is variance. For example, the Sram top end cassette is definitely better than XTR, but the GX one is probably worse than XT. I mean, it’s not really a like for like comparison across the board.
Definitely unimpressed with Shimano 12 speed rear mechs though, SLX and XT. I’m keen to try GX even though I think the materials are of a lower quality. It would be nice if my gears just worked though. Having not used Sram since about 2013 I can’t objectively comment on it, but I do know that 12 speed Shimano has left something to be desired. 11 speed XT was a lot nicer in shifter feel and reliability.
I wouldn’t want SX or NX though. They are a lot more yuk than SLX.
  • 4 7
 @jaame: I’d put GX above XT personally. You get about a year out of an XT mech before the clutch fails or it goes floppy at the pivots. I’ve just hit five years on a GX mech still solid at the pivots and the clutches rarely fail on sram. GX costs more the XT but I’m still happy to pay it because it works better and lasts longer.

Deore, SLX, NX and SX are all trash. They come on completes. Ride it until it falls apart and upgrade with something better but don’t actually buy it aftermarket unless it’s really cheap on chain reaction.
  • 2 2
 @thenotoriousmic: If its 5yrs old you must be on 11 speed? 11 speed sram was vastly better than 12 speed sram, its like the quality and performance have dropped down a full level for each of their groupsets I'd say. New deore is probably a bit better than new GX, it didnt used to be.
  • 2 5
 @pbuser2299: deore is absolute junk dude. It’s designed to tick all the boxes at the lowest possible price point same with SX. It’s made to a lower standard out of cheaper, weaker and heavier materials. There’s hasn’t been a single deore mech that’s ever been used seriously and not been in bots after a year let alone five. I’ve got similar out of xo1 and other GX mechs to though don’t expect it to last five year it will definitely work better than xt and will last longer.
  • 5 1
 @thenotoriousmic: I completely disagree. Deore has been solid and not much different from tiers above it, it's just heavier and nothing special. It's the stuff lower than Deore that I'd be concerned about.
  • 4 1
 @pbuser2299: I would respectfully disagree. While 12 speed GX was harder to dial in, once you did get it setup right, it was significantly better than 11 speed GX IMO. And the newer GX 12 speed, which came with the newer bigger range Eagle update, ended up being a pretty significant upgrade in quality of shifting. And when I asked my local shop recently about choosing between new XT and GX for replacing my aging 12speed GX, they really pushed GX just because the number of XT failures they had this past year with month long delays on getting replacements.
  • 3 3
 @thenotoriousmic: If you belief so, but here's my chart:

XX1 ~ XTR performance wise. Price wise XX1 >> XTR
GX SLX Performance wise. Price wise GX >>> XT
NX ~ Deore Performance wise. Price wise NX >= XT
X9 and lower ~ anything Deore or lower (Alivio) and cost of SRAM will be comparable with SLX or Deore components.

From what I see with riders on the trails, most if not all will have X01 or GX mixed SRAM drivetrains since most can't afford a bike with XX1 drivetrains or XX1 components even if you wanted the gold XX1 cassette and derailleur. You might see a few with XTR but quite a few with XT/SLX components. For people who ride a lot and do their own maintenance, it just makes sense to get Shimano since you can also get parts for the derailleur, rings for the cassettes, and small parts for practically any component. SRAM cassettes are like one piece and expensive as hell. The only thing you can replace on their derailleur is the jockey pulleys. Everything seems to be more expensive with SRAM. I know, some of my friends who thinks money grows on trees will always say price is THE best gauge for quality. I guess the more bling you wear, the better you feel. Wink
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: XX1 = XO1. I have had both and don't seem like much of difference. Nowadays, I like GX better.
  • 3 0
 @tacklingdummy: xx1 is a little lighter but is in no way better. Most enduro guys are riding x01 as it’s a bit more robust if they are not on axs.

Which is why I compare xt to x01 and xtr to xx1. As really the only difference in performance is weight.

Srams axs derailleur is on another level. I doubt shimanos will match it in robustness but rather be a wireless di2/hyper glide combo that simply shifts exceptionally well.
  • 1 0
 Interesting to read this thread. I have been hearing about XTR shifters failing (mine hasn't, but I don't ride it a lot), wandering bite point (mine seem fine), and now clutch issues. But you make one mention of liking Sram better because...well...mine has been flawless and you get downvoted like crazy.

Both my XTR (XC race) and GX/XO1 (E29, started as GX only) bikes have been fine.

(I also find the Hyperglide to be mostly BS, it doesn't shift THAT much better).

Oh well, I am keeping the XTR since I don't also want to put on a new hub to go to XX1. Too much work for too little gain.
  • 2 1
 @JSTootell: XT M8000 drivetrain with Zee brakes would be smooth, reliable and robust. It would be heavy and only 11-46, that's the only problem.
I admit, I like to try new stuff and also am a bit of an MTB fashion whore. I was fine with 11-46 for years so I don't strictly need more now.
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: it’s not what I think it’s an actual fact. It’s always been that way. XO1 / XO is srams XTR alternative, It’s even priced the same and then sram brought out xx1 as a tier above XO1 they didn’t demote it and shimano just didn’t release an alternative. I run both shimano and sram on my bikes. Sram works better and lasts longer but you can always find shimano with heavy reductions online so it’s good for bikes your not using all the time.
  • 1 0
 @bulletbassman: Yeah, XX1 is a little lighter but negligible. To me, XO1 is better than XT, and XT equal to GX. I don't have or tried AXS or DI2. I'm sure it is excellent, just not too into it.
  • 1 1
 @JSTootell: Go grab the cheap plastic paddle on an brand new XTR shifter and give it a wiggle and feel how poorly made they are the quick release mechanism and shimano clutches cause a lot of drag and makes your shifts feel like your cables are clogged compared to the super light action on sram and the clutch is always fails on shimano mechs if you manage not to bend them. You hardly ever hear of srams clutches failing.

I’ve replaced 7 shimano callipers in two years because the pistons have started leaking over the pads. I have to bleed my shimano brakes all the tile to stop the random bite point issue. I had it yesterday. Pulled the back brake coming into a chute and it locked up instantly and nearly took me out.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: It seems that flushing and re-bleeding the brakes are not the only thing to maintain the hydraulic brakes in good working order. You'll need to do the following:

1) Clean the caliper pistons
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tbsfQp3EaU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXFFgRButo (Park Tool Tech Tuesday)

2) Clean/overhaul the master cylinder lever piston
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z43tGeGkYec&feature=emb_rel_end

For #1 - the brake fluid gets black if the caliper pistons are dirty. When you push the caliper pistons back in, it'll contaminate the brake fluid. So, you'll have to flush out the contaminants quite frequently. But if you clean these caliper pistons regularly, the fluids should last longer.

For #2 - this is done probably not as much but probably an annual maintenance to prevent fine dust particles from ruining the rubber seals in the master cylinder chamber. You can get parts for these on AliExpress. But if this is well maintained, you'll like not experience any wondering bite point issue. Surprisingly, ALL of Shimano hydraulic brakes from XTR through SLX use the same or similar master cylinder pistons (plastic) and seals. The reason for the plastic piston is probably so that when the silicone grease wears out, the plastic won't scratch up the inside of the master cylinder.
  • 2 0
 @bulletbassman: The XTR shifter and pedals are much better than the XT ones.
  • 4 0
 @HollyBoni:
The clutch can become sticky when really dry, unsurprisingly. It's a combination of a lack of maintenance and/or over washing the bike.
Maintain it as you said and it will work as planned.
And as a side note, do not fall in that trend of over washing your bike and ruin bearings and bushings faster along the way.
  • 1 1
 @Porkybob: The new derailleurs are not as well sealed as the old. I've run old XT/XTR into the ground without them causing issues. A few wet rides with the new XT's, and they just freeze up.

The need frequent maintenance. Well above what was needed in the past.
  • 2 1
 @seekanddestroy: Seconded. I had an XT M8000 which I ran for three years on my Nomad and never did anything to it. The SLX M7100 I had went to shit after about a month and only one very wet day at Revos. It wasn't the clutch, it was that sleeve bushing that the clutch sits on.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: 100% due to poor sealing.

I love that I am getting down votes on these posts - die hard Shimano fan bois who know nothing. If you have access to the Shimano S-Tech forms (i.e. you are a mechanic who is connected to Shimano) you'll see that there are plenty reports of this issue. Many people are experiencing it, and it is not acceptable.

Shimano has silently released an upgrade kit, and would suggest to you that you need to over-maintenance these pats. No thanks. I've been a die hard Shimano customer until this fiasco by the way.
  • 1 0
 @seekanddestroy:
Pretty interesting. Thanks for the info:
What is this upgrade kit? A new seal for the housing?
Have you talked about the other problems like the spring in the XT and XTR shifters that keeps breaking?
  • 1 0
 @seekanddestroy: I'm genuinely surprised about these comments, I've got 2 derailleurs from the new 1x12 range and haven't had a problem yet. All I do is the quick ~ 10 minute service on the clutch, once that feel a bit notchy, other than that I haven't had any problems.
  • 3 1
 @A1990ToyotaHilux: I think the issue is that people such as myself used previous gen 10 and 11 speed Shimano derailleurs with no maintenance at all for years. We expected the same from 12 speed and found out the hard way. If they put a note in the box saying "You must service the clutch every wet ride because the seals or materials are a lot shitter than they were on the older mechs" then I would have done it. It's not very good though is it?
Imagine you have a Golf and run it for 100,000 miles with ten oil changes total. Then you get another Golf and it needs oil changes every 500 miles, but VW doesn't tell you when you purchase it. I imagine it would lead to a lot of failures.
  • 1 1
 @jaame: let’s be honest shimano have been lacking for years now, it’s only now with the new ranges that have all the same same issues as the previous and more that people and online reviews are calling them out on it. The 11 speed mechs all failed at the clutch after a year at most anyway and that’s if they didn’t bend or go floppy at the pivots. These days I won’t buy shimano unless it’s dirt cheap online and I’ve not been impressed with anything shimano since a bought a Saint chain guide in 2014.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Yeah, I absolutely know what you mean. I'm still kinda bothered by Shimano not outright saying "Check derailleur for smooth operation" and "clean and re-grease clutch once it feels notchy".If I hadn't found the video, I linked somewhere above, I probably would've had the same experience as some people here.
I still think some people here blow this way out of proportion tho, yes doing the clutch service every 2-3 months is annoying and probably would be unnecessary with a better seal, but I think it's an overreaction, to say the whole product is crap. For reference I do a lot of wet (even salty) rides too and by far don't have such short service intervals as some people here claim.
  • 2 1
 @thenotoriousmic: I have had multiple Shimano mechs last multiple years since Zee with no issues or maintenance. I switched over from Sram because the X7 derailleur I had been using was pants and went floppy in no time. Zee came out and I was all over it. I still have a Zee setup on my son's bike. I also ran SLX ten speed and XT 11 speed for years. I have to say my favourite of all time for shifter feel and reliability was XT m8000. As I say, I haven't used Sram anything since the early 10s so I can't comment. I did have a go on a mate's bike with X01 a couple of years back and remember thinking 1. This can only shift up one gear at a time, that's pretty wack. And 2. The action is a lot lighter than my XT, that's sexual.
Anyway, I am mad keen to try AXS mostly for the clean bar. I wonder when that will drop and more importantly what it will cost.
  • 2 0
 @seekanddestroy:
I agree. Every 12s system being more completed, with tighter tolerances, longer cages etc is more finicky than 11s'.
I found the XT 11s is ridiculously durable.

To be fair and from what I see at the shop, I'm not sure most people need 12s. If the average rider use 8-9 of them regularly, that's better than I expect.
Most people would benefit about having a smaller chainring instead of changing the whole system and adding complexity to an aleady complex part.
  • 2 0
 @Porkybob: I agree with you. Most people don't touch the smallest few cogs. A cassette with a smaller and tighter range, with a smaller max tooth count, a smaller cage derailleur, and just a smaller chain ring would be largely beneficial for most people. These 12 speed wide range drive trains are all hype and people buy into them hook line and sinker.

The older 11 speed derailleurs are superior to the 12 speed versions. People need to continue to discuss this as it really deserves more attention.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: I never had zee mechs last but I ran them on dh bikes and they costed around £35 so I didn’t really care. Ive just never had anything shimano last that long. Maybe I just got lucky but my XO1/GX is lasting three to four years. I just don’t like m8000 shifters, they feel cheap and not very sturdy. I find it a fumble to get to the down shift paddle. I don’t like how they shift down twice if you accidentally push to far. I can remember cranking up to the step down at hamsterly over rough ground accidentally shifting down twice slipping a chain and nearly dying on it with one foot of the bike and there’s a load of unnecessary friction from that rapid release system when I’d rather my shifts feel a light as possible.
Yeah x7’s absolutely sucked complete garbage that wasn’t fit for purpose.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I preferred the feel of 10 speed Saint and 11 speed XT shifters to 13 speed XT. I guess there is plenty of variety of opinion on that subject. We all like reliable parts, low prices and wide range though.

Shimano used to have a 12 or even 13 tooth smallest sprocket. Suntour dropped the Micro Drive systems to 11t and made the crankset smaller as well - kind of what you are describing Seek and Destroy. That was back in the day before Sram existed.
  • 2 0
 @heissescheisse: I'm fairly confident that the on/off switch for the clutch is the entry point for moisture that leads to the corrosion. I use a very heavy/thick grease on that gasket and ovoid water in this area at all cost and it has seemed to fix the issue for me.
  • 42 1
 Wish they'd just drop a nice, light XT 11sp (with way less clunky, plastic-y shifter) with hyperglide and 10-51 that's buttery smooth despite the jumps. Oh and their brakes without the stupid wandering-bite point thing. Do we really care that much about electronic shifting? I can afford it...but I don't want it. I'm already waiting for a buddy to "reboot" his Ebike to try and get the damn thing to work.
  • 10 1
 I still can't believe they haven't figured out the wandering bite thing. It's always fun guessing where your brake is going to start working when you squeeze the lever... As to wireless shifting, AXS isn't shabby.
  • 19 1
 @gilby82: the solution to wandering bite point is just to always be dragging your brakes all day long (like me!). That's way, the bite point is always right where you are.
  • 4 1
 @gilby82: I read this a little while back, they say they have fixed the wandering bite point with a lower-viscosity oil: bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/65337/what-causes-and-how-to-fix-wandering-bite-point-on-shimano-hydraulic-brakes

I haven't personally tried it, but next time I fully bleed my brakes I will!
  • 19 2
 And a 10-45 option w/ short cage derailleur for those of us who don’t need the range and don’t want our RD to look like one of those robot arms in a car factory, caressing the ground as we ride along.
  • 1 0
 @bishopsmike: I have a set of 2nd hand 6yr old XTR brakes. Always had problems with the wandering bite point, until I replaced the levers with Deore's. perfect
  • 7 1
 @kylar: Why even bother with 12 speed at that point? There are lighter and cheaper 10 speed options with that kind of range.
  • 8 1
 @kylar: 10-45t 10spd Saint
  • 12 0
 @drakefan705: I was tagging on to the original comment asking for reliable 11 speed. After trying both 12 speed xt/xtr and Box prime nine, I’m back on 11 speed Sram. I’ve decided that 11 speed X1 and above is the pinnacle of mechanical derailleur advancement for me. Reliable, long lasting, good shifting, light....
  • 4 2
 @ceecee: I’m hoping they make the zee series the enduro/free ride series and saint the dh series. Don’t even update the brakes they are perfect as is.

I’d prefer 10-42 though. Or 11-42 and no micro spline.
  • 2 0
 @kylar: Thoughts on prime 9? I've been thinking about ordering a prime 9 one as soon as they are in stock, so maybe never
  • 3 0
 Oh ya, 11sp XT with hyperglide would be divine.
  • 1 0
 @bulletbassman: hey, XX1 cassette. 260g. Available now. Should work nicely with XT/R 11 shifter, der. Not so available. All I need's a Torch XD freehub and 500 USD
  • 2 1
 @hamncheez: it worked. I had box two, and for $260 it was great. Big range with no frills. I didn’t like the shifting, wasn’t crisp by any means, but alway shifted. And the RD was huge! If box one has more work put into the shifter and not just everything thrown at that hot cassette, it’ll be killer!
  • 2 0
 @ceecee: the xx1/1195 cassette is fantastic - but it possibly may not shift as nice as the new hyperglide stuff that everyone is raving about.
  • 1 0
 @onemind123: I had an xtr cassette and chain w/ xt rd and shifter and couldn’t get it to shift as clean as I was hoping. Even at one point thought I was missing something in the setup and had Fanatik tune it. So this sample size of one has had the opposite experience. I was really excited to try the smoothest shifting ever, too!
  • 3 0
 @kylar: 11spd x1 was easily the most durable, no fuss drivetrain I have ever used and I've only gotten "better" derailleurs since then
  • 3 0
 Also about to pull the trigger on a Box 9. I really only use the top gear and the bottom gear, so anything else is kindof a waste.
  • 2 0
 @runbrung: This is the best info on the internet I have found on this issue. Thanks for the link!
  • 2 1
 @kylar: Ya that prime 9 one cassette gives me a chubb
  • 2 0
 @kylar: on 27,5 bike I do nor plan to go beyond 11 sp based or rd cage length, it is almost as rim radius
  • 1 1
 @runbrung: but should we be having to fix their problem? Surely Shimano should be designing a brake that doesn’t need us to sort it out.
  • 1 0
 @onemind123: 'my hyperglide 12 shifted flawlessly under load up a steep logging road,' they chant. I'm still trying to get 10-45t xtr 12 not to shift by itself, but didn't fully set it up myself nor done a full reset
  • 1 0
 @nickmalysh: I feel like peak cassette was the e*thirteen 9-42. Thats the same range as a 10-47. I run mine with a 10 year old 10 speed x9 derailleur. I bet you could get a pretty short cage for just a 42 tooth, and add hyperglide and you're set. I love the gear jumps of only 10 speeds; its perfect.

The only problem is that bike manufacturers have optimized antisquat for a 32 tooth chainring because everyone is running 50+ tooth cassettes now. For a 9-42 you need a 28 tooth chainring, which would give you way too much antisquat and chaingrowth on modern frames.
  • 3 0
 @kylar: I have box 11spd, and i had to replace shifter for a box 1. fixed the issue of a very hard lever feel. box 2 shifter was not precise and failed about a week in.
  • 1 0
 @ceecee: Does that actually work? I thought the tooth capacity of the saint was 25t. I've been stuck on an 11-36 w/ zee derailleur because I dont want to move away from a short cage.
  • 2 0
 @LaXcarp: I use same zee derailleur. There is no saint option with 36 tooth.

One up used to offer an aftermarket cage to go to 42 with saint. Wish it was still made.

10 speed deore is an option, but I’m a bit worried the derailleur won’t be as dh friendly as the zee and they’ve been on back order for months. I bought 3 zee derailleur/cassette backups and called it a day.

Hoping the zee fr gets an update. A bit more range to 42 and the hyper glide tech.
  • 1 0
 @bulletbassman: That update would be greatly welcomed. I'm tempted to drop to a 30t ring to give me knees a break from grinding a 32x36. I do have deore on my hardtail I could swap over and I think it would work for 42. Any idea what the shortest 11speed derailleur is?
  • 1 0
 @LaXcarp: current deore 10 speed goes to 46 and there is a 42 tooth cassette option if 37 to 46 sounds like a rough jump (it does to me)

Not sure about 11 speed.

I have a zee crankset so can’t go lower than 34 chainring. It’s fine though cause it’s on a hardtail and I just stand up when climbing most the time anyways.
  • 1 0
 @LaXcarp: No. Wishful thinking for new medium range 10. Would need 11spd SGS or 12 GS der; mainly a new cassette. Off the menu for you and Bulletbass, who's got the right idea: commit and hoard. Short cranks, good orthotics, and flats are nice for knees, if you're not already using

@onemind123: HG12 seems to require more cable tension than 11. I reset with metal ferrules and lubed der pivots. Still doesn't have the satisfying crack of an 11 upshift. I'm not at all certain the 1x wars are good for consumers
  • 1 0
 Advent X is back in stock at JensonUSA; i have two and they shift pretty dang well. They are so cheap I don't really care that the ergonomics are meh and the range is somewhat less than others. It is light, shifts well, and doesn't look uber cheap.
  • 40 0
 I still ride (obsolete parts) and they work just fine! (Manufacturer) sucks anyway because (unrelated topic)!
-Every Pinkbike comment ever
  • 37 1
 Still hoping Scylence hubs become a real thing
  • 7 1
 The Box silent hubs look like what we're hoping for from Sylence, but I'd totally go for a Sylence SLX hub to save some cabbage.
  • 2 1
 Do those hubs engage similarly to a freecoaster? If so, reliability might not be the best.
  • 3 0
 Keep in mind the lack of durability in a freecoaster isn't due to the large POE gap, but because there's bearings getting sideload as you engage the clutch.
  • 1 0
 @sherbet: right, but I’m not familiar with Shimano’s system and I’m curious if it’s a similar design idea or not. I currently use Onyx hubs but those engage far differently than a freecoaster and I’m guessing more expensive than what shimano may be able to offer.
  • 2 0
 It's a very different system than a sidepull or sprag clutch.
  • 1 0
 @sherbet: Is there any additional info out there on how it works? A quick google search just showed an exploded view.
  • 4 0
 @coletrane-mtb: Box hubs work on a roller clutch that is totally different than Shimano's hubs. The only thing they share in common is that the operate in silence - Box 100% of the time, and Shimano most of the time. Box has instant engagement that is superior to Shimano, but then Shimano hubs are dirt cheap so they have that going for them.
  • 2 0
 @sherbet: I am sure no one in here follows bmx freecoaster tech but I think some MTB company should look into the free night bmx planetary freecoaster that was just picked up by BSD (for manufacturing power reasons). I think they solved pretty much all of the freecoaster woes with this one. Some Israeli dudes figured out how to fix the freecoaster problem using a very simple 3d printed piece of plastic, it's quite genius. Basically allows a ratchet/pawl system to coast.
  • 3 1
 They kind of are. If you buy a M8210 hub (or complete wheel), you'll notice they go completely silent above 5mph or so. They didn't get branded as Scylence because (AFAIK) there was an issue with the design that made them COMPLETELY silent, but they were able to make them silent at all normal speeds. My XT 8120 hub is DEAD silent at almost all times during a ride, unless I'm going extremely slow and coasting. It's really, really nice.
  • 3 2
 The new Shimano hubs are pretty nice. I build a set of SLX for a friend a short while ago and quite liked them - great value. The new BOX hubs are totally different, and run on a roller clutch. If the new ones are anything like the legacy True Precision hubs, they will be fantastic. Even more instant than Onyx, which are a favorite of mine. Shimano lack that instant engagement, but the silent is very nice.
  • 2 1
 @privateer-wheels: @privateer-wheels: I've tried a couple of Shimano micro spline hubs and had nothing but problems. I really want to like them and kept them running best I could but eventually the internals ate themselves. After a quick google I saw I wasn't the only one and gave up, beware if it starts creaking. As a lifetime Shimano fan I've been pretty disappointed by 12sp so far.
  • 2 0
 @jlauteam1: got one of the og freenight hubs, it's rad. But it doesn't coast silently which is what I think these folks want. Wouldn't say no to some trail fakie action though.
  • 1 1
 @jlauteam1: I’m interested to see how that system lasts long term. I watched a few videos about that hub a while back and it seemed like it just didn’t have much slack at all. And I’m not sure if you can adjust slack on those. Personally, I like having all the slack I can get on my freecoaster.
  • 2 1
 @jlauteam1: onyx and stealth (now box) had it figured out a decade ago.
  • 3 1
 @fruitsd79: 100%. But both cost significantly more than Shimano of course!
  • 1 0
 @fruitsd79: They use sprags though don't they? Totally different design. Also doesn't freecoast!
  • 2 0
 @jlauteam1: Onyx uses a sprag clutch, Box Stealth uses a roller clutch.
  • 1 0
 @privateer-wheels: And they're heavy.
  • 1 0
 @acme54321: I think people tend to over exaggerate the impact weight at the hub makes. Many of the same people won't think twice about tossing on an extra beefy tire which you are penalized for much more in terms of ease of acceleration.

But if you are super weight focused, there is no getting around them being heavier than many of the competition. For me however, the benefits outstrip the weight differential.
  • 12 0
 For those dealing with rusty/sticky derailleur clutches, Shimano has an update kit for it. Should be warranty.
Shimano says the moisture is entering by the on/off switch lever shaft, not the rubber seal or rubber access port.
The kit consists of new lever(probably with a better seal on it) & clutch mech, I believe.
  • 2 0
 This is good news.
  • 3 0
 Cool bananas
Does the kit have a part number?

Also I wonder if a new derailleur comes with the updated lever.
  • 1 0
 How do we get these kits? Only through shops, or is there somewhere to get them directly? Thanks!
  • 15 0
 cant wait for another i-spec standard
  • 12 2
 An e xtr? That'll be extra sir! See what I did?
  • 6 0
 Xtre! Xtre! Read all about it! Shimano goes wireless on mountain groupsets!
  • 5 1
 I wish Shimano and SRAM would drop some of their R&D budget on developing gearboxes instead of creating more and more expensive derailleur and cassette systems! £700+ for a new derailleur when it inevitably gets bent catching it on a rock? No thanks...
  • 3 0
 Shimano has already patented a gearbox which -surprise surprise- only works with the STEPS attachment pattern to the bike's frame. Here is some more info on it:

www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-gearbox
  • 7 0
 Time for the rumors to shift into high gear.
  • 6 1
 The new 12 speed stuff is unreal. My xtr shifts just as good as anything electric I've used. Shimano are for sure playing the long game here.
  • 2 2
 My old 7-spd XT thumb shifters (in a 3x8 setup) and 10-spd XTR 2x10 works flawlessly as well. No qualms about that. I've tried Shimano's latest lower grade drivetrains (2x5 and 2x7) and they're super smooth. I can't believe how well made and how precise they are.
  • 2 0
 @CSharp: reliability of the 12-speed shifters is still to be confirmed. There are numerous reports of downshifting issues, in all the series. Also, at least in the Deore and SLX rear hubs, the play between the freehub and the body increases pretty fast, leading to binding and drag.
  • 1 0
 They are always playing the long game when they are years behind. I love shimano but would it kill them to innovate on a few things here and there? I guess the Sylence answers that question.
  • 1 0
 @browntown40: I'd rather a company release their latest stuff without any issues rather than have recalls or redesigned due to usability or have functional issues. Shimano usually take a 2-4 year iterations to improve or innovate their groups and not just for the sake of release a "new" thing for market. The stuff they put out each time are solid. This is why their top end stuff have more warranty than other manufacturers. It's easy for every manufacturer to create new stuff on their computers with CAD, but time is required to test the stuff out thoroughly before and after production runs. It's similar to creating software applications, except there are a lot more standards and guidelines for manufacturing. Anyway, like anything, you speed up the process to market and you likely end up with crap. The worse thing is, people seem to want to pay more for crap these days just to get a hand on the latest and "greatest".
  • 7 1
 Shimano people be like "SRAM YOU'RE DONE"....Then Sram release a mind actuated drivetrain
  • 18 0
 SRAM people's comeback - "Wondering shift point" Wink
  • 1 1
 My brain be like ???? my mech be like ????
  • 13 7
 Not a Sram fanboy here, but its criminal that Shimano continue to sell brakes that dont work correctly.
  • 7 2
 Well, they do make you stop, so in that sense they work. My guide’s on the other hand didn’t even manage that part... I had my bike holiday cut short, because the pistons were stuck in the lever. Turns out a lot of people had this experience, but no recall from sram (these brakes were actually dangerous). After that experience, I’ll gladly deal with the wandering bite point of the shimano’s. But to be fully honest, I don’t think I will buy sram or shimano brakes again and give either Hayes, TRP or Formula a try next time I need brakes.
  • 1 0
 uhhh what
  • 10 0
 @cvoc: Bros don't let bros ride Guides. SRAM shouldn't make any other brake other than their Code RSC's. They are near perfect with zero compromises. Their other stuff wasn't great. Some of it was flat out junk. The Codes are freaking badass tho, by a mile. Shimano doesn't compete there. Dominions are a small step up from the Codes tho...a bit more power while not giving up more control. They are the best I've ridden/owned. Incredible brakes. Bleeding is a bit annoying but whatever. Perhaps the trickstuff is better but who can afford those. No need to try other brakes...Dominions or Codes are the easy choice. I hate my Shimano XT stuff. New Shimano is pretty nice but yeah they are flawed out of the box so even tho they fixed their dumbass "lightswitch lever" to be closer to Codes/Dominions...the bite point is still broken.
  • 5 0
 @Svinyard: Could not agree more. I don't have a single riding buddy who doesn't ride codes, and not one of us has had a single issue in multiple seasons of Colorado "enduro" style riding and shuttling. They're adjustable, they modulate extremely well, and their power puts them in at least the 90th percentile for aggressive brakes.

The only place to go from Code RSCs is Trickstuff Maximas. I'll be honest - I'd happily pay the outrageous premium if it didn't also come with an 18 month lead-time. You can have my money or my patience, but not both. Smile
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: dude guides and codes are almost identical. Codes hold more fluid and have a slightly larger piston for slightly better heat management and a tad bit more power but that’s about it otherwise they’re the same brake.
  • 3 0
 If you flick through FCC website there are also SRAM applications for shifters, front and rear suspension (internal wireless shockwiz?) and pedals!!! Imagine pedalling constantly changing suspension? Death of pedal bob?

Gives the latest PB podcast title of decoding suspension a whole new meaning. Cheeky of SRAM as it was submitted just days after the podcast was released. Coincidence?
  • 3 0
 Ok, crazy idea... what about instead of dealing with the potential battery and wireless connectivity issues -- we use a cable. I will accept my reward in person or via new fangled internet call... but, crazy idea, what if we used the telephone?
  • 3 0
 Cost more than an e-Bike, which I can't even afford. Mechanical shifting worked for over 100 years and will continue to work. So, who cares!
  • 5 0
 So with current supply issues it should be ready by 2025.
  • 7 0
 Without current supply issues it wouldn't be available until 2025.
  • 3 2
 I must be in the minority. I much prefer Shimano shifting and brakes to SRAM. Just replaced the Code Rs that came on my Yeti with a new set of SLX. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't get those brakes to work right. Great lever feel though.

I have had the wandering bite point before, we will see if these new ones act up. Just did a 50+ mile ride and didn't have any issues so fingers crossed!

I am digging Eagle, although it seems a bit more finicky than Shimano XT. Haven't tried Shimano 12 speed yet.
  • 5 2
 You replaced codes with slx. K.
  • 2 0
 @the-burd: I know, hilarious.
  • 1 0
 @the-burd: Huh...never said the SLX were better brakes. Just easier and less fussy than the Codes I had. AND...I don't need the Codes on that bike.

But yeah, you probably know what's best.
  • 1 0
 I am not sure moving towards normalized electronic groupsets on mountain bikes is a good thing. It increases the carbon footprint of your drivetrain a lot. I don't deny the performance increase of AXS for example but we probably should ask ourselves if it's really worth it because these innovations don't seem to be in favor of a more sustainable industry.
I mean we're mountain bikers and therefore nature lovers, right ? Don't we want to preverve it ?
  • 1 1
 OK, riding my hobby horse here..... after 30 (f__k I'm old) years on mountain bikes, I've gone between the 2 big S companies.... past 5 years, I can not convince myself that any human has thumbs that like SRAM triggers.... I have 2 GX bikes... an 11 speed HT and a 12-Speed week-old Ripley AF (happily came with a shifter up-spec to GX)..... and 1/2 dozen "other" bikes with Shimano..... my wrists are shit, but is it just me?
  • 6 0
 The sram triggers are the best part of sram's groupset for me.
  • 2 0
 @jlauteam1: Yeah I'd take a the new Shimano 12s over my X01 Eagle because of the hyperglide and double-down shifting....but I definitely like my Eagle shifter feel/ergonomics better than Shimanos by a long shot.
  • 1 0
 I really don’t like the SRAM paddles either. The big lever is okay, but the tiny floppy paddle thingy just doesn’t vibe with me. Much prefer the instant release Shimano shifters.
  • 2 0
 Gripshift may be an answer for you, give it a try.
  • 2 0
 The issue they're going to have is their own 12sp mechanical shifts so well that there's no way the price of the e version will ever be justified.
  • 1 1
 Sticky shimano clutches can be remedied with an oval chainring also the oval seems to keep it moving just enough to keep it from sticking and contrary to belief they don’t “wear out” I’ve had the same XT. shadow + mec for more than a year now w/no prob.
  • 1 0
 Interesting, guess that’s why my derailleur is fine
  • 1 0
 Might be the case if you have a hardtail. A full suspension bike with chain growth will keep it moving as the suspension cycles.
  • 2 2
 Im out from shimano for sure... got the m9120... almost black oil in brakes, very spongy feeling, the chain makes noises when going uphill with a bit of load on the pedals on the 3rd and 4th gear... ( checked almost everything twice, still cant repair that ) and the bike is something like 3 months old not even ridden hard ( Top Fuel 9.9 2021). Sorry Shimano but thats not acceptable with that price tag and that group set. Time for SRAM.
  • 1 0
 Shimano doesn't have enough parts for sale that were already launched. If you order now some XT parts you might get them in 6 months from now on. So this should be more important than launching something new.
  • 2 1
 actually in Europe you cant even get a tourney derailleur available... so a new electronic supa-dupa complicated derailleur seems faaaar from us...
  • 1 0
 Hopefully we'll see some lower prices if Sram gets some wireless competition. You know they have a cheaper version lined up ready to go as soon as Shimano releases something.
  • 3 0
 Nice. this should bring xtr 11 spd di2 down in price
  • 2 0
 Think of the extra laps ebiker's fingers can get it. Shifting with cables is exhausting.
  • 4 1
 6 years late to the party, lol.
  • 2 0
 Came for the wireless story , stayed for the extensive discussion about Shimano 12-speed clutch problems.
  • 13 12
 Well it's about time. Lets see what the prices are and hope it's more reliable than their 12 speed stuff.
  • 10 2
 If it is then it’ll never ever wear out.
  • 7 3
 You're gonna get downvoted like crazy, but I agree that the 12 speed stuff hasn't wowed me with reliability like their other stuff does. 3 ripped off derailleurs, a bent chain from a bad shift, derailleur clutches too tight/not greased properly from the factory, ultra sensitive to cable friction (could be a problem for all 12 speed groupsets). None of this was a problem with my M8000. I long for the time I could forget about my drivetrain for months and it would just work.
  • 8 0
 Funny there was a poll just a few days back here on PB that showed that most people are satisfied with reliability of their components..
  • 11 13
 Shimano 12 speed is 100x better reliable than sram and shifting is another level.
  • 4 1
 @coletrane-mtb: sell your 12 speed and put an 11 speed xt set on and you're good.
  • 4 7
 @Skarhead89:
Lol good joke
  • 4 1
 Saint halo groupset....
  • 2 0
 Nope. Wireless brakes. Ya heard it here first, folks!
  • 9 0
 Wandering wireless brakes
  • 3 0
 reviewed tomorrow...
  • 2 1
 What will it be called:

e-late
di3 or die-die-die!
SXS " pronounced "sex" becasue AXS isn;t " A " " X" " S" either
  • 3 1
 imagine shimano dropping a 13 speed 9-53 drivetrain to triple one-up SRAM
  • 1 0
 This brings up the quetion: Is it posible to have 9t cog on microspline?? I am not sure because the thread the last cogs are on is quite large... Does anybody know the definitive answer? ...Btw I expect 13 speed shimano in 4 years if ever. Simple math campag 13 exists so: Campag+2years=sram sram+2years(minimum)=shimano
  • 2 0
 Bring back pneumatic shifting!!!!!!!
  • 2 0
 Bring back Hone! Just kidding.
  • 1 0
 i expect we'll see a SEMI-wireless duraace group this year, but xtr will likely be another couple years.
  • 1 0
 Definitely holding out for a true wireless Shimano Ultegra Grouppo one day in the future!
  • 2 1
 Sram innovates, shimano perfects. I call Shimano making wireless electronic across all price points....
  • 2 0
 This. SRAM without a true wireless competitor has been able to fix their price. If Shimano provides competition one will lower their price.

It makes me wonder, has Shimano ever had a product line that DIDNT trickle down to cheaper price points?
  • 3 3
 Dibs on in being a Dura Ace road group, roadies love them shiny electronic trinkets.
  • 1 0
 Fix the clutch first Shimano
  • 1 2
 i am not a fan of sram brakes as the ones i have tried they do not stop the wheels no matter how hard i pull on them. also they always feel like they need a bleed
  • 2 1
 Bike build on hold for this option in the summer Wink
  • 1 0
 Summer 2023 I hope.
  • 2 0
 Available 2036
  • 2 2
 I’d be interested in just be able to buy some XT brakes sometime this year. Please shimano. Please.
  • 2 0
 Bonerjams 98 for me
  • 1 1
 what do you do if you're on a 4day weekend trip in the backcountry and the battery dies?
  • 3 0
 Realize that you’re riding for four days and charge your batteries beforehand, and perhaps bring a spare.
  • 1 0
 I lubricate the grease on my clutch.
  • 1 0
 No wireless XTR from Shimano this year.
  • 1 1
 Let's hope it's reliable. My experience with 12 speed XTR has been disappointing.
  • 1 0
 I feel like it's about time they make a wireless drivetrain.
  • 14 14
 If it's not Deore 12 speed or a new saint. . . not interested
  • 28 1
 Uh Deore M6100 12 speed does exist
  • 5 4
 @bender85: it exists to the people that have it / can get it.
  • 5 1
 Demand a raise so you can at least get XT, the white collar worker groupset.
  • 2 1
 finaly
  • 1 0
 Gimme!
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 AXTR
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 ok
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