Twelve months ago, Shimano announced their 12-speed
XTR drivetrain. It looked just as refined and well-executed as you'd expect a top-tier race-oriented group to be, but there was one problem - it was nearly impossible to purchase. Several factors, including a fire at Shimano's anodizing facility,
delayed the production of the group, and the availability kept getting pushed further and further back. In fact, it was only in the last month or so that the entire group, including cranks, became available.
Needless to say, the pressure was on for Shimano to get back on track and regain their footing in the drivetrain market. They've responded by releasing new 12-speed XT and SLX groups, and while there may have been struggles in getting XTR to the market, the new components are on their way to retailers at this very moment. The new XT components and will be available to purchase on June 14th, and SLX parts will follow shortly after, which means that Shimano will have three complete 12-speed groups on the market by the middle of July.
There are enough little details about each component to make your head spin, but it's worth taking a few moments to go over the key features that differentiate the XT from XTR and SLX, starting with the crankset.
XT FC-M8100 CranksetIf the XT M8100 crankarms look familiar, that's because they're the same as the model that was used as a temporary solution while the actual XTR cranks were being revised. Shimano had already finished the design work on the these cranks when they ran into production issues with the XTR cranks, so they were initially released with an XTR chainring in order to be able to offer a complete group.
In the XT configuration, the arms are the same, but the direct mount chainring is slightly different – it uses aluminum arms and steel teeth, versus the XTR chainring's full-aluminum construction. That adds a little weight, but it also means that an XT chainring is roughly half the price of an XTR ring.
There are three chainline options – 52mm, 55, and 56.5mm – in order to have cranks that will fit bikes with 142, 148, or 157mm axle spacing. For riders who pay attention to things like Q-factor (the distance between the outside of the driveside crankarm to the outside of the non-driveside arm), the 52mm chainline cranks have a 172mm Q-factor, which is narrower than what Shimano has offered in the past. If you have a bike with 12x148mm spacing and aren't sure which option to go with, the 55mm chainline option is the safest bet – that way there shouldn't be any frame clearance issues, and the 178mm Q-factor is only a couple millimeters different than previous generation XT cranks.
There's also a double chainring option for the three people out there that are still rocking a front derailleur.
SLX cranks have always been a workhorse option, an affordable and durable choice for riders who aren't counting every gram, and that sentiment holds true with the new model as well. As Nick Murdick, Shimano's MTB Product Manager, said, “SLX definitely rides in jeans.”
The SLX cranks have a nice blue tint to them that lets some of the metal grain show through. Honestly, I think they look even better than the finish on the XT cranks. The main difference between the SLX and the XT chainrings is the surface treatment, and the fact the there are only 30, 32, and 34 tooth options – you'll need to bump up to the XT level to get either a 28 or 36 tooth ring.
Chains and CassettesThe XT and SLX cassettes are available with either a 10-51 or a 10-45 tooth range, all with 12-speeds. The 10-45 tooth option is aimed at riders and racer who don't need a super-easy climbing gear and want more even spacing between the gear steps. It also allows for the use of a shorter cage derailleur – which means if you're willing to give up some gear range you can gain some ground clearance.
The 10-51 tooth cassette, which will be the most commonly seen option, has a 510% gear range thanks to the following gear progression: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51T. On the 10-45, the progression goes like this: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-45, for a 450% gear range.
The easiest way to tell Shimano's 12-speed cassettes apart is by counting the number of black anodized cogs. On an XTR cassette the largest three cogs are aluminum, followed by five titanium cogs, and then four steel cogs. XT cassettes get two black aluminum cogs and 10 steel, while
SLX has one black aluminum cog and 11 steel.
The new XT and SLX groups both use Shimano's Hyperglide+ chain and DCE+ chainring design.
It's only possible to take advantage of the full scope of Shimano's Hyperglide+ technology, which enables shifting under load, by having a Hyperglide+ cassette and chain. Chains from other manufacturers will work, but not as well as going the full Shimano route.
The main difference between the three 12-speed mountain bike chains that Shimano offers has to do with the surface treatment, and whether or not the pins are hollow. An XTR chain the gets highest end finish along with hollow pins, and should be the strongest, lightest, and most durable option. XT and SLX chains are the same weight and strength, but the XT has a different surface treatment that should give it a slightly longer lifespan vs. SLX. According to Nick Murdick, if you were going to only have one XTR part on your bike, choosing the chain is the way to go.
All of the cassettes in the lineup require a Shimano-specific Micro Spline freehub body. At the moment, Shimano, DT Swiss, Industry Nine, and Newmen are the only companies producing compatible freehub bodies, but it sounds like we'll be seeing more options emerge in the near future.
Shifters and DerailleursThere are two longer cage derailleur models for both XT and SLX. All of the derailleurs use the same larger pulley design that was first seen on XTR, along with the familiar clutch design. The 8100 and 7100 models are for use with a 1x setup, and the other two options are for the aforementioned front derailleur holdouts.
There's also a shorter cage derailleur in each group that's intended for use with the 10-45 tooth 12-speed cassettes.
The XT shifters look and function nearly identically to their fancier XTR relative, but the release paddle is a little bigger, and the textured rubber pad isn't replaceable. Both XT and XTR shifters feature Shimano's two-way release design that allows the release lever to be pushed or pulled to move to a harder gear. You can also quickly drop down two gears with one push of the lever, and each click corresponds to a shift, without any need to let up off of the lever.
The SLX shifter doesn't get the rubber grippers on the shift paddles, and it also doesn't have multi-release or instant-release capabilities.
There are two- and four-piston caliper options for XT and SLX.
BrakesThere was internal debate at Shimano as to whether it was better to offer only a two- or four-piston brake, but in the end the decision was made to continue offering both. There was already an XT-level four-piston brake, but this marks the first time that there's been a four-piston SLX option.
The brake lever's shape has been modified slightly from the previous version, with a taller, flatter profile. The lever also has the extra support perch that was originally seen on the new XTR brakes, a feature that makes the lever body more resistant to flexing under heavy braking.
Even the rotors got an upgrade, and the Shimano's Freeza technology is now available at the XT level. The Freeza Centerlock rotors consist of a layer of aluminum sandwiched between two pieces of stainless steel, with that aluminum layer extending below the braking track to help keep things as cool as possible. The design is almost identical to XTR, except that the XT rotors don't receive the special heat dissipating paint that those top-of-the-line rotors have.
Wheels & HubsWhen XTR came out, there wasn't a complete wheel to complement the hubs. According to Shimano, that's because the wanted racers to have the ability to choose between carbon or aluminum rims rather than locking them into one option. With the XT group, Shimano saw the opportunity to add a tougher wheel than what they'd offered in the past, and the result it the WH-M812. The M812 wheels use offset aluminum rims that have an internal width of 30mm and are laced with 28 J-bend spokes. The rims' shape combined with the hubs' wide flange profile allows for a wheel with zero dish, and even spoke tension on both the drive- and non-drive side.
Along with the prebuilt wheelsets, there are also Micro Spline driver-equipped hubs at both the XT and SLX levels. The Centerlock hubs use a cup-and-cone bearing system, and the freehub body has 7-degrees of rotation between engagement points.
Prices & Claimed WeightsProduct launches are often held in far-flung locations that require a full day's worth of travel to get to, followed by a couple days of riding on unfamiliar trails and equipment while battling jet lag. For the launch of XT and SLX, representatives from Shimano made the trip up to my home trails in Bellingham, Washington, which meant that I didn't need to spend any time in the germ tube, and could focus on the products' performance without trying to remember what time zone I was in.
The bike I was aboard was the
new Ripley, Ibis' latest version of their classic light and lively trail bike. It was outfitted with the new XT components from tip to tail, with a 10-51 tooth cassette and four-piston brakes.
I've been putting the miles in on the XTR 12-speed group in preparation for a long term review, so it didn't take me any time at all to get used to the feel of the XT drivetrain. Honestly, it's hard to tell a difference between the two groups out on the trail, and that's a good thing. I'd say XTR feels ever-so-slightly more smooth and effortless when shifting, where XT's shifts felt a little more solid, but the difference is barely discernible.
Over the course of two days of riding I didn't need to adjust the drivetrain at all – each click of the lever was met with a quick, crisp shift. Just like with XTR, the XT drivetrain will happily change gears even when you're standing up and mashing on the pedals, no matter how counterintuitive that may seem. The shifter's shape and feel is excellent, and the I-Spec EV mounting system provides a wide range of positioning options. The 51-tooth cog came in handy on a couple of particularly steep climbs, and the jump to that easy gear was nice and smooth - there's no longer the huge, somewhat awkward jump between the final two gears that was found on the XT 11-speed 11-46 tooth cassette. I don't usually backpedal more than a quarter turn or so while I'm riding, but I made a few backwards revolutions to see what would happen, and found that the chain stayed right where it was supposed to be.
There wasn't a whole lot of sustained braking to really put the four-piston brakes to the test, but they did remain consistent the entire time, with plenty of power, especially for the lightweight Ripley. I'm still harboring hopes that Shimano will come out with brakes that have a pad contact adjustment feature, although I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a long time for that wish to come true.
It takes much more than two days of riding to comment on a new drivetrain's durability, but I do think it's safe to say that Shimano are firmly back in the drivetrain game. The prices and weights of the new components are all very competitive, and the shifting performance and feel is top notch - it's hard to ask for much more than that.
mtb.shimano.com
Regardless of what condition I have ever been in I always see the pizza guy. It's like seeing the white unicorn with the gun slinging cat on its back..."Look at him...He is glorious!!! LOL
I think the Eagle range is a mess since day one: X01 and XX1 are too close from each other (both technically and financially), GX Eagle ain't XTish at all (some GX components are unreliable expensive junk) and the NX Eagle is a joke (metal alloy made out of chinesium).
The 12sp offer from Sram is confusing at best, so they will have to work on that first. Shimano offers a better working 12sp solution, period. The 12sp XT's price tag is where it's at, cheaper and better (but heavier). And the 12sp SLX shows how much both the NX and GX eagle were a rip off!
I like Eagle, but I like the precision, finish, and feel of Shimano more.
So for XT we're looking at:
Derailleur - $80
Crank - $160
Shifter - $42
Cassette - $112
Chain - $30
So around $420 for the complete drivetrain with crankset. And this is soon after launch, once dealers have enough stock to satisfy initial demand.
Drivetrain...
www.youtube.com/channel/UChWv6Pn_zP0rI6lgGt3MyfA
In this battle, more was not better. Shimano took longer to get here, but the product is actually worth rising.
For objectivity, I'll add that I haven't seen Eagle fail outside of racing. If you're a fun rider, by all means, go for it.
The real drivetrain group is 699 Euro: www.bike24.com/p2333414.html?q=M8100
$300 x 300% = $900
$300 - $900 = -$600
Good deal
imgur.com/WUkpOmY = Total Ninja!
m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tsk3zAZyLaQ
for the record I rode NX Eagle two days ago, it is utter shit. I wouldn’t pay 100£ for a whole group. The shifting takes time, feels and sounds like transformers taking a real hard shit. Anyone speccing it on a bike more expensive than 1.5k should be shot in the knee. The one I rode was well setup. I just couldn’t believe it. GX is ok, it feels like good old X7 but NX is terrible. Terr fkng ible. It doesn’t even stand by Deore and I’d rather run Alivio in 2 ring setup than that
Having said that GX is on Deore level in my books, lowest acceptable quality from SRAM. And then there’s a chasm tocross to X01/XX1 which are nearly identical but cost more than XTR.
And yes, your 65 year old father can probably climb faster than me. But i'm happy to at least be doing it on the bike.
People don't believe me when I told them most of the pro roadies hate Sram products. I'll have to share the video. Back when I started working around the 2012 Giro, it was already the case and racers made fun of the poor souls on Sram. And it's always a different issue, at least Mollema's AXS was mis-shifting, big improvement over last year's etap not shifting at all for no reason.
The teams on the road with no drivetrain sponsorship they all buy Shimano. All for good reasons, it's even worse for Sram with teams refusing money from them just to avoid their products. Sram offers loads of cash to the brave teams using their products. Through the years they have lost so many teams. Too bad they are the only real alternative to Shimano in the mountain bike world.
The way I look at it is this - hate on principle is silly in this sport. If it's something that's going to improve my riding, or make my day on the trails more awesome, then i'm all for it.
But i've also learned that there are a-hole fanboys in every single sport and pastime we have.
Regarding the drivetrain subject, their feedback on drivetrains is of high value. You don't win races on road because of your equipment (or not very often), but you can lose races easy because of a mechanical. And the chances of losing a race because of a mechanical issue is higher if you use Sram, it's not a urban legend.
Gotcha.
No more cassettes made of cheese, derailleurs with play from new, BB's that creak faster than a Fox CSU, and chains that eat the chainring when you're in the 50T.
Otherwise I'm happy with my di2 2x xx1 10-42 combo.
Do some reading before spewing shit.
That said, XT remains my favorite groupset ever and here's hoping that Shimano opens up the license.
White Industries has done just that, and made their own micro spline compatible freehub. Onyx also has microspline compatibility coming on their Vesper hubs. I'm sure king with come to market with something soon.
As for Shimano, the reluctance to license MicroSpline is due to manufacturing capability. Shimano needs to see that the applicant can reliably meet specification before they will sign off.
The bottom line is this - now that we know that both XT and SLX use MicroSpline, it's only a matter of time before all the significant players have MicroSpline options in their hubs.
singletrackworld.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/3/files/2017/05/Shimano_XT_Cassette_5.jpg
content.competitivecyclist.com/images/items/900/SRM/SRM009W/BK.jpg
uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171009/dcd8cfc7890e44d842a74bd63410bbca.jpg
Honestly, my cheese shifts fine. I use both SRAM and Shimano and can't be bothered to spend an extra $300 for a cnc'd block for marginal gain in shift quality.
So unless @shimano opens up the license to other manufacturers we won't be able to use it on other hubs then shimano and dtswiss.
(source: Hope)
The only ones who might have to wait quite a bit are the aftermarket boutique hub brands like Hope, Chris King, Project 123 or Tune.
Do you work for SRAM? Seriously. You are here trying to compare $350+ cassettes to ones that can be had for $80. LoL
It's almost as if people don't understand how things work.
No I don’t work for sram i use wayvmore of their stuff but I still use a lot of shimano as well. I run four bikes. I just think they deserve more credit than they’re getting of these biased fanboys on the front page of pinkbike. Shimano don’t care about mountain biking they got into this sport by accident neither do sram go and find a rider owned company to fanboy over. That said haven’t ridden the new stuff could be decent. It needs to be.
The overarching point with SRAM is that unless you just prefer the way SRAM does things, or their aesthetic (which I will admit can be pretty awesome - i've always thought XO1 is one of coolest looking drivetrains ever), there's absolutely no reason to buy. Shimano offers better durability, better reliability, and it's cheaper to boot. I always say - buy what you like (especially when you are spending this kind of money) but don't fool yourself about why you are buying it.
I also have an X1 11 speed set up. It to works very well going into its 3rd or 4th season, but I will be hard pressed to replace with SRAM componentry (cassette especially) when the average consumer can get an entire Shimano drive terrain for the price of a 1195 cassette, that really offers marginal shifting improvement at best, and perhaps none at all - despite the CNC vs stamp argument - my Shimano shifts clean enough that I simply don't feel the need to look for reason to spend more money.
I'd rather save the big bucks and spend towards a riding trip. Or better suspension/wheels/brakes etc.
But this is all a matter of preference in the end, no? And we we all place value. Which I can only really value if people have substantial personal experience to offer - and on that basis, all I can to is listen - I'm not going to argue you having good experience with SRAM or poor with Shimano, or tell you that you are wrong (how can I tell you your experience is wrong?) - just want to offer up that I have had excellent experience with Shimano, and appreciate keeping the extra dough in my pocket. Certainly not worth hurling personal insults for.
Also you can't compare old Shimano or current SRAM to new XTR (and hopefully these new groupsets). The shifting action, shifting under load, the lack of friction etc is in another league.
And totally true, the new XTR should be even better. But my point is, even before XTR, my well set up and maintained 11 speed Shimano didn't lack much in terms of shifting quality - certainly not enough to warrant an expensive 12 speed upgrade, in my mind
I agree that 11spd is great but the arms race moves on. Wait till you try that XTR.
And yes it adds up, but 100g at the tire is worth many times what 80g at the axle is. So I say go after the grams that matter most.
But if I can get away with a lighter tire and not lose traction, or end up cutting though a casing - hell yeah, that weight matters far more than hub centric weight.
Many people are *over tired* out there.
It's all unsprung mass. Your suspension doesn't care if it's rotational or not.
@jclnv: Rotational mass absolutely makes a difference to your suspension. But that's secondary to the most important effect - lever arm. That tire weight is levered anywhere from 11-13" past your rear axle, and it's spinning. Those are all effect multipliers, so to speak. All i'm saying is this - shave 100g off your tire, and you can run double the cassette weight.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/17289240
Wow.
www.google.com/search?ei=YWb0XJn4E4jl_QafhYKoBg&q=XD+cassette+seized+on+driver&oq=XD+cassette+seized+on+driver&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160.1718.7523..7603...0.0..0.152.2975.8j19......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131j0j0i67j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i13j0i13i30j0i13i10i30j33i299j33i22i29i30.MWMLPnSAP2k
Seems like there may be no "magic" freehub. We all know about how the classic Shimano one gets chewed up by cheap cassettes, and how the XD driver has a habit of permanently fusing itself to cassettes. It remains to be seen how MicroSpline performs, but I wouldn't expect a whole lot of improvement on that particular front.
Facts indeed my friend.
Stop being stubborn. Get involved. There’s absolutely no reason for the ridiculous blind loyalty. You’re cutting your nose of to spite your own face. Shimano doesn’t care about you or mountain biking in general it’s just a business mate. SRAM’s no different. I’ll buy whatever works the best. Do the same.
No ridiculous blind loyalty here...that's all on you. And I'm not getting into it with you, i'll just watch you get downvoted into nothing. Buh-bye.
I had really been looking forward to buying the scylence hub (quieter the better far as I'm concerned) and the originally mentioned 11sp cassette that sadly hasn't appeared but now I see microspline has the same issue as the old design and the cassettes are loads heavier than XX1 11sp I'm not seeing it as worthwhile. I currently run XT crank, mech and shifter with XX1 cassette and chain and it's flawless and very light weight, the 3 more teeth on the 10-45 would have been a bonus but not enough to change. The 51T is of no interest.
Since i'm a bike mechanic enthusiast (is that a thing?), I have quite a few more bikes than average come through my shop, and most of them are OE spec'd GX through X01, and it's actually a rare treat when I can get the cassette off without my special rigged-up setup that i created to handle seized cassettes. From my experience, at least 3/4 of the SRAM 11-speed drivetrains that come through my shop have this issue. Conversely, while pretty much all the of Shimano freehubs that I encounter are notched to some degree, it's exceedingly rare that I need to go out of my way to get the cassette off.
This is why, when I go 12-speed, I will likely just go with the Sunrace cassette. I use DT hubs pretty much exclusively, so I could go with MicroSpline...but it's $90 for the freehub and I can get either regular Shimano or XD for $40. I want no part of seized cassettes on my bike so i'll stick with the good 'ole Shimano freehub. Plus, i'm NEVER paying $200+ for a cassette, so that means it's GX vs. XT/Sunrace, and there's no comparison there.
Besides, even the XT M8100 cassette is what, like 110g heavier than XX1 Eagle? You can't possibly justify 3x the cost for a weight difference that would only be noticed on a cross-country hardtail.
My thinking is, generally, if you are running the heavy ass tires then you are more concerned about going downhill than uphill and really don't need the extra range. If you are so worried about going uphill you are unlikely to need that much tire...cause it's also going to be a major drag (lol) on the climbs.
Me, I ride rocks and steeps...but i'm good with making it down the hill. Getting up it is where I need all the help I can get. Therefore i'll take all the cassette the industry offers, and if the weight is too much, i'll cut back on tire.
I figure if you need the beefy tires, and extra 100-200g for a cassette isn't a big deal - weight at the hub is much easier to get spinning. For me, weight of the tire is dictated by the trails I'll be riding - obviously thats always a balancing act - weight/traction/durability.
Giant's asleep at the wheel. Decades later and still no 29er with enough travel to tempt the largest segment of the market. Meh.
2020 Rocky mountain instinct BC edition A70
Full XT groupset including brakes with fox factory 36 and dpx2.
I'm kind of on the fence about it as I had tons of issues with my M9000 single piston brakes and really enjoy my GX eagle/guide ultimates that are on my current bike.
Hoping
Kick ass user name by the way!!
I hope these new Shimano builds will offer more value for the money. I'm getting really tired of seeing bikes with NX and GX costing $4000 and more.
Awesome work by Shimano here.
I do like how companies like Ibis provides swappable hub bodies (I didn't know this previously) so if you buy an NX build, you aren't married to the old school hub when you want to jump up to GX/X01 or whatever.
Words from someone who doesn’t realize one my own a car, van, truck, helicopter and that NC is quite close to SC.
I'm also thrilled to see some barely used xtr/xt/slx 11 speed stuff popping up in the buy/sell.
At the moment the lack of options is a little frustrating if you want to run a hub other than Shimano, DT Swiss or I9, but that's going to change.
Centerlock only rotor thing surprises me more, but IMO, it's a way better standard than the super tedious 6 bolt standard. Deep down I kinda applaud Shimano for sticking to it and trying to force the change... I hate screwing on 6 bolt rotors.
You really need to try a DT Swiss wheelset. Far superior to Hopes and more reliable... My basic E1700 haven't needed tensioning or truing in 2 years, plus they don't use an inferior bawled system. Seriously, try them. They're not even expensive
Does Shimano coolaid have hgh or some other testosterone boost? You are so angry all the time.
when i built the wheels i thought of going dt, but i didn't want the 350 because is heavier, and needed to upgrade the star ratchet, and the 240 was more than a 100€ more, so it was not worth it
Dude it's really not all that difficult. You probably know half the stuff already. What the hell are you whining about.
Take the two laces, cross them, over under, make the bunny ears, cross, loop and...damn better leave this shoe tying business to the pros. There’s like six steps to this.
Weird to see Pinkbike doesn't mention the new brakes. You'd say they'd be excited by the new four pot SLX brake calipers.
I'd love to hear how often people are removing their rotors during a ride.
Instead, with Centerlock, you can simply carry a cassette lockring key, like this:
www.parktool.com/product/cassette-lockring-tool-fr-5
IF you are concerned about your rotors coming loose or something. Back when I ran nothing but Centerlock, I NEVER once carried that tool and never once needed it. However, if you do choose to carry the tool, and you do end up needing it, it will take you about 5 seconds to tighten/remove/reinstall your rotor instead of 30 seconds PER bolt, if you're fast. And don't even get me started on seized/stripped bolts. I'm up to five bolts so far this year i've had to drill out.
Side note - all the ISO bolts i've ever used are Torx T25, and that's not a tool that I purposely carry, since I use Shimano and they stick to allen bolts EXACTLY LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE ON EVERY BIKE EVER. So at least for me, ISO bolts would require me to carry an extra tool anyway...that's if I was concerned about them coming loose.
Never realized this could be an issue really. A multitool with a T25 key doesn't have to be bulky.
For the brake rotors it's not as big of a deal because for the most part, you mount the rotor, and it stays. It's rare in my experience to have a rotor damaged and they generally last quite awhile. The problem is that when there IS an issue, it REALLY REALLY sucks. Encounter a seized or stripped bolt on the trail and your day is over.
Centerlock solves pretty much all the issues in that design - it's just as durable, weight difference is negligible to non-existent, it uses fewer parts, and it's so much easier to work with when maintenance is needed.
Magura's thinking is counter productive because frames are all allen-bolt oriented. So they're just making it so that more people have to carry another tool. That said, it is a small tool and often integrated into multi-tools. But you still have the much higher probability of stripping out the bolt head though, as compared to allen.
To circle back to the original point, which still stands - Centerlock does everything that six-bolt does, and is far easier to work on. That's all i'm sayin really.
I don't really think Magura made it so that people need to carry another tool. You already needed the T25 for the disc rotor. Then you needed the 5mm allen key for a couple of mounting bolts (brake caliper, handlebar clamp) something else again for the brake pads, reservoir/bleed port and reach adjust and of course the open ended wrench for the hoses. There is no alternative for the hose mount at the brake master end (unless you go for the banjo fitting) but other than that they narrowed it down to the T25 tool. So at least you can work on their brakes with a T25 exclusively. That said, I don't ride with their modern brakes. I ride with a mix of 2006/2007 Louise brakes on one bike and 2008 Louise on the other. Doesn't bother me at all, because I already need so many other tools for that same bike. I consider a tiny cheap T25 tool or bit less of an issue than some proprietary bearing extractor or a crank or bottom bracket tool that's bound to be extinct by the time I upgrade.
But yeah, should I ever get a centerlock hub, I'd be fine with that too. I think Shimano kind of went against the grain back when they almost simultaneously introduced centerlock and oversized centerlock (for Shimano Saint hubs). That was too much at once. Then Manitou came with onepointfive. People weren't used to changing standards back then. By now we can almost be certain that standards will change every few years. My guess is that within the next few years we'll go to metric chain pitch (12.5mm or even 10mm chain pitch) to get more teeth on a smaller sprocket, because 10t and 9t are considered too few for a durable cassette. And even though with the introduction of the dropper seatpost the number of seattube diameters has dramatically reduced, the small current diameters have been chosen with rigid seattubes in mind. Fox will be the first to introduce their 36 and 40mm "technology" in their Transfer seatpost and with their huge OEM influence, the bike manufacturers will be quick to upsize their seattubes. To save weight on XC bikes with limited seat drop, their seattubes will taper towards the bottom. Like step-cast.
There you have it. We almost wrapped this thing up, did I just open a whole new can of worms for you all to feast upon
The GX and NX needs to go down one price bracket. Where they belong.
SRAM keeps make lesser and lesser groupsets like the SX which in turn, would bring up the NX and GX up another price bracket in complete builds. Of course, it's not just SRAM's fault. Bike companies are just as much to blame.
The thing that always annoys me with the Shimano is the self-shifting when back pedaling. Been a problem ever since they added a clutch. Not generally a big issue on a smoother trail, but if you are trying to do some trials type moves to get over some tech it’s damn annoying. And my kid who is just 9, backpedals a lot just because he’s a kid and those shifts get annoying. Hopefully, they fixed this issue.
I’ll be psyched to try this new XT, but I’m not racing out to buy it, especially since I’d have to buy a new wheel at the moment. I’m just happy Shimano has finally stepped up to a good gear range in a 1x at a good price point. 1x has allowed for some good frame and suspension design changes. Keep the competition alive. We all are the better for it.
I consider the XT a step above the GX builds and the SLX is about equivalent to the GX, tier wise.
But GX specced bikes have had their prices steadily rising over the past couple of years since there's no middle ground between the GX and XO1 build kits.
Now the 12S XT and SLX are out, I hope to see Shimano builds offer decent pricing, or at least fill in the gaps between GX and XO1/XX1/XTR builds.
Paying over $4000-$5000 on a GX specced bike is very hard to swallow. But if it were an XT 12S build kit at the price, I'd have an easier time accepting it.
Do I trust Shimano to deliver this product on time? Not even remotely. Do I trust Shimano to ensure pricing isn't made a joke of online? No. Microspline? Probably better than the XD driver so that's fine.The brakes all look great. And both XT and SLX look good.
Don't mess it up Shimano.
“But unlike GX it won’t be available”
Fixed that for you.
I do hope you realize XO1 is not aimed to be at the gx and xt level?
This will put some pressure on SRAM so at very least they won’t be able to jack up their prices.
Is any of this stuff made in Japan or is it all China... or Laos. If Shimano can’t get their flagship factory to make quality stuff I shudder to think what “lowest cost” factories can do.
the freehubs:
XTR M9111 237g, all alloy, 7 degree engagement
XT M8110, 305g, all alloy, 7 degree engagement
SLX M7110, 350g, steel axle, otherwise alloy
the front hubs all use aluminium axles and seem to be identical between XT and SLX. XTR is like 10g lighter.
The result is that, they're the same weight/stiffness because they use the same amount of metal, but the XTs were harder to break. It would be nice if the difference was only finish, cause I'd take SLX everytime, for the price.
Tech note: if you're overhauling an XTR hub, DO NOT let your left and right side bearings intermingle. Keep the drive side bearings on the drive side and non-drive side on the non-drive side.
That's the kind of precision and attention to detail that separates XTR and Shimano from the rest.
SLX Drivetrain adds up to $350.95 individually, but table states $409.93
SLX Complete adds up to $793.90 individually, but the table states $819.89
XT Drivetrain adds up to $599.94, but table states $622.93
XT Complete adds up to $1187.89, but table states $1,148.89
The SLX Drivetrain is the real winner here at $350 USD with crankset with only a 101g total penalty to the XT versions. If a local Canadian Bike Shop actually stocks and sells a complete SLX Drivetrain for ~$470 CAD (at today's exchange rate), then there's little reason to go hunting for these parts overseas.
Those brakes look quite a bit over-priced vs. the rest of the grouppo:
SLX: $410 USD for brakes + rotors
XT: $520 USD for brakes + rotors
I have a Hope Pro4 rear hub and would love to upgrade my X1/GX mixed 11spd drivetrain to 2020 SLX but i'm locked out until Hope makes a Pro4 microspline freehub.
After destroying 8 Shimano freehubs over 2 years in the M770 era, I gave up entirely on Shimano hubs. Need to know if I should consider, perhaps against my better judgment, another try w/ Shimano.
This makes no sense to me. A 55 chainline with Boost 148 spacing would give you a terrible chainline.
When 148 came out it was touted as the widest you could go without making the q factor wider. That was ingored and they made the chain stays wider because of stupid mid-fat/plus tire craze
Now you have 157 on non downhill bikes that need to be pedaled. Great if your knees don't bother you. I had one years ago, loved the frame, knees hate it.
Give me a boost frame that can run a reasonable q factor crank.
Same is true for Superboost, use a boost crank or ring if you can. If you want 34t or bigger, then you might have to go wider. In that case the 55mm option would be preferable to the Superboost standard at 56mm.
Objectively, the bite point problem was fixed on the later m8000's, so I would bet that fix carries over to the new line. I have two sets of the 00-series (one m8000 and one m7000) and I haven't experienced the issue, so i'm guessing I got the revised design. Would have been nice of Shimano to denote that in the model number.
However, I found that a decent overnight bleed got rid of the inconsistent bite point for a few months. Set up your lever bleed, strap your lever down to the bar with the cup and fluid set up. And leave it overnight. Any deep-seated bubbles will work their way out. Not saying it'll help for everyone, but it got rid of the problem 100% for me for the last few months. It'll probably come back, but I'll try that bleed again and hope that is the solution.
Did a ride next day no random bite point .
I'm thinking about trading up my 11-speed XTR for a mixed 12-speed group - XTR shifter and chain, XT derailleur and crank, and sunrace cassette.
downvoting for offering my experience tied to a question. LOL Some of you young bucks are a bit broody it seems. All I can tell you is what I have experienced. I weigh 215 lbs, brake hard for some corners, and prefer to not lock up the brakes if possible. My combo does this better than the sintered pads did with the same rotors.
Try your own combo and find what works for you.
Guess thats fine for new builds/bikes, but don't think I'm switching for my bikes/wheels. Not an option.
Is there a 6 bolt version of the Freeza rotors?
When Eagle came out I was skeptical about performance and price and durability. I am not skeptical any more. XO and GX Eagle work really well. The chains, cassettes, and chainrings last far longer than any drivetrain stuff I've used in over 30 years of mountain biking.
Shimano states that with XTR, you need to run the XTR ring up front. This is technically correct. This is ONLY because the master link of the new 12-speed chain is too narrow for a normal ring. If you use a SRAM/KMC/ETC. master link on the Shimano XTR 12-speed chain, it will work on any normal narrow-wide chainring.
However, if you're just looking for a 12-speed setup, without the shifting benefits...then frankenstein the system...but why bother...just wait till the stuff is available.
#Triple4Lyf
Sram has had a near monopoly for the past few years.
heh heh
Actually, to be fair, I'm so happy with my 11sp XT, I'll likely keep replacing cassettes and chains until Shimano no longer supports it.
The math is pretty obvious for 52mm going to 55mm when you go from 142mm to 148mm. So why does the even larger jump from 148 to 157 only bump the chainline by 1.5mm to 156.5mm??
. . . at least a single tool still works to install/remove all of them!!!
Well, except Campy, but that's another demographic.
www.kustombikes.co.uk/article/6-shimano-xtr-m9100-rear-derailleur-is-compatible-with-sram-eagle-12-speed
2.5yrs on with SRAM X1 mech/shifter, and a GX 11sp cassette and chain...completely flawless performance and no reliability issues whatsoever. I’ve not even needed to adjust cable tension in that time.
So it will take some doing to turn me back to Shimano.
www.facebook.com/hopetech/photos/a.179027565472417/3440814985960309/?type=3&theater
I was looking at getting the all steel cassette from Garbaruk, but with a $300 + price tag and a time delay I was hesitant, but now the entire XT package with DT micros[pine driver is only a couple hundred dollars more, so yeah, I'm in.
Just waiting for the XT package to be available.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXqgKGaZ3vM "They Live" is/was such a great film.
Do the XT and SLX cranksets still hold together with pinch bolts?
That's why frame only costs so much nowadays. They (SRAM) need to get rid of their stock somehow.
Also the upgrade to 12 speed means I need a new wheel set........ew....
off.road.cc/content/buying/complete-guide-who-makes-micro-spline-wheels-hubs-m9100-xtr
Had loads of XT M8000 stuff a few weeks ago too. At least it is all a moot point as I don’t have suitable hubs.
www.cyclingnews.com/news/shimano-grx-gravel-specific-groupset-launched
Honestly, running every level of Shimano brake possible over 15 years, I can't notice a lick of difference in stopping power between the different levels given the same pads and rotors.
Anybody else?