First Ride: Shimano's Back in the Game With New XT and SLX 12-Speed Groups

May 30, 2019
by Mike Kazimer  


Twelve months ago, Shimano announced their 12-speed XTR drivetrain. It looked just as refined and well-executed as you'd expect a top-tier race-oriented group to be, but there was one problem - it was nearly impossible to purchase. Several factors, including a fire at Shimano's anodizing facility, delayed the production of the group, and the availability kept getting pushed further and further back. In fact, it was only in the last month or so that the entire group, including cranks, became available.

Needless to say, the pressure was on for Shimano to get back on track and regain their footing in the drivetrain market. They've responded by releasing new 12-speed XT and SLX groups, and while there may have been struggles in getting XTR to the market, the new components are on their way to retailers at this very moment. The new XT components and will be available to purchase on June 14th, and SLX parts will follow shortly after, which means that Shimano will have three complete 12-speed groups on the market by the middle of July.

There are enough little details about each component to make your head spin, but it's worth taking a few moments to go over the key features that differentiate the XT from XTR and SLX, starting with the crankset.


Shimano XT 12-speed


XT FC-M8100 Crankset

If the XT M8100 crankarms look familiar, that's because they're the same as the model that was used as a temporary solution while the actual XTR cranks were being revised. Shimano had already finished the design work on the these cranks when they ran into production issues with the XTR cranks, so they were initially released with an XTR chainring in order to be able to offer a complete group.

In the XT configuration, the arms are the same, but the direct mount chainring is slightly different – it uses aluminum arms and steel teeth, versus the XTR chainring's full-aluminum construction. That adds a little weight, but it also means that an XT chainring is roughly half the price of an XTR ring.

There are three chainline options – 52mm, 55, and 56.5mm – in order to have cranks that will fit bikes with 142, 148, or 157mm axle spacing. For riders who pay attention to things like Q-factor (the distance between the outside of the driveside crankarm to the outside of the non-driveside arm), the 52mm chainline cranks have a 172mm Q-factor, which is narrower than what Shimano has offered in the past. If you have a bike with 12x148mm spacing and aren't sure which option to go with, the 55mm chainline option is the safest bet – that way there shouldn't be any frame clearance issues, and the 178mm Q-factor is only a couple millimeters different than previous generation XT cranks.

There's also a double chainring option for the three people out there that are still rocking a front derailleur.

SLX cranks have always been a workhorse option, an affordable and durable choice for riders who aren't counting every gram, and that sentiment holds true with the new model as well. As Nick Murdick, Shimano's MTB Product Manager, said, “SLX definitely rides in jeans.”

The SLX cranks have a nice blue tint to them that lets some of the metal grain show through. Honestly, I think they look even better than the finish on the XT cranks. The main difference between the SLX and the XT chainrings is the surface treatment, and the fact the there are only 30, 32, and 34 tooth options – you'll need to bump up to the XT level to get either a 28 or 36 tooth ring.
Shimano SLX 12-speed
SLX FC-M7100 Crankset


Shimano XT 12-speed


Chains and Cassettes

The XT and SLX cassettes are available with either a 10-51 or a 10-45 tooth range, all with 12-speeds. The 10-45 tooth option is aimed at riders and racer who don't need a super-easy climbing gear and want more even spacing between the gear steps. It also allows for the use of a shorter cage derailleur – which means if you're willing to give up some gear range you can gain some ground clearance.

The 10-51 tooth cassette, which will be the most commonly seen option, has a 510% gear range thanks to the following gear progression: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51T. On the 10-45, the progression goes like this: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-45, for a 450% gear range.

The easiest way to tell Shimano's 12-speed cassettes apart is by counting the number of black anodized cogs. On an XTR cassette the largest three cogs are aluminum, followed by five titanium cogs, and then four steel cogs. XT cassettes get two black aluminum cogs and 10 steel, while SLX has one black aluminum cog and 11 steel.

XTR M9100
The new XT and SLX groups both use Shimano's Hyperglide+ chain and DCE+ chainring design.

It's only possible to take advantage of the full scope of Shimano's Hyperglide+ technology, which enables shifting under load, by having a Hyperglide+ cassette and chain. Chains from other manufacturers will work, but not as well as going the full Shimano route.

The main difference between the three 12-speed mountain bike chains that Shimano offers has to do with the surface treatment, and whether or not the pins are hollow. An XTR chain the gets highest end finish along with hollow pins, and should be the strongest, lightest, and most durable option. XT and SLX chains are the same weight and strength, but the XT has a different surface treatment that should give it a slightly longer lifespan vs. SLX. According to Nick Murdick, if you were going to only have one XTR part on your bike, choosing the chain is the way to go.

All of the cassettes in the lineup require a Shimano-specific Micro Spline freehub body. At the moment, Shimano, DT Swiss, Industry Nine, and Newmen are the only companies producing compatible freehub bodies, but it sounds like we'll be seeing more options emerge in the near future.


Shimano XT 12-speed


Shifters and Derailleurs

There are two longer cage derailleur models for both XT and SLX. All of the derailleurs use the same larger pulley design that was first seen on XTR, along with the familiar clutch design. The 8100 and 7100 models are for use with a 1x setup, and the other two options are for the aforementioned front derailleur holdouts.

There's also a shorter cage derailleur in each group that's intended for use with the 10-45 tooth 12-speed cassettes.

Shimano XT 12-speed
The XT shifter paddles are a little bigger than XTR, with a non-replaceable textured rubber pad.

The XT shifters look and function nearly identically to their fancier XTR relative, but the release paddle is a little bigger, and the textured rubber pad isn't replaceable. Both XT and XTR shifters feature Shimano's two-way release design that allows the release lever to be pushed or pulled to move to a harder gear. You can also quickly drop down two gears with one push of the lever, and each click corresponds to a shift, without any need to let up off of the lever.

The SLX shifter doesn't get the rubber grippers on the shift paddles, and it also doesn't have multi-release or instant-release capabilities.

Shimano XT 12-speed
Shimano XT 12-speed
There are two- and four-piston caliper options for XT and SLX.

Brakes

There was internal debate at Shimano as to whether it was better to offer only a two- or four-piston brake, but in the end the decision was made to continue offering both. There was already an XT-level four-piston brake, but this marks the first time that there's been a four-piston SLX option.

The brake lever's shape has been modified slightly from the previous version, with a taller, flatter profile. The lever also has the extra support perch that was originally seen on the new XTR brakes, a feature that makes the lever body more resistant to flexing under heavy braking.

Even the rotors got an upgrade, and the Shimano's Freeza technology is now available at the XT level. The Freeza Centerlock rotors consist of a layer of aluminum sandwiched between two pieces of stainless steel, with that aluminum layer extending below the braking track to help keep things as cool as possible. The design is almost identical to XTR, except that the XT rotors don't receive the special heat dissipating paint that those top-of-the-line rotors have.

Shimano XT 12-speed
The new M812 wheels use 28 J-bend spokes laced to an aluminum rim with a 30mm internal width.
<Deleted photo>
Shimano XT 12-speed
The pedals use the same proven design that Shimano's been using since the dawn of time, but the shape has been modified to create a larger platform underfoot.

Wheels & Hubs

When XTR came out, there wasn't a complete wheel to complement the hubs. According to Shimano, that's because the wanted racers to have the ability to choose between carbon or aluminum rims rather than locking them into one option. With the XT group, Shimano saw the opportunity to add a tougher wheel than what they'd offered in the past, and the result it the WH-M812. The M812 wheels use offset aluminum rims that have an internal width of 30mm and are laced with 28 J-bend spokes. The rims' shape combined with the hubs' wide flange profile allows for a wheel with zero dish, and even spoke tension on both the drive- and non-drive side.

Along with the prebuilt wheelsets, there are also Micro Spline driver-equipped hubs at both the XT and SLX levels. The Centerlock hubs use a cup-and-cone bearing system, and the freehub body has 7-degrees of rotation between engagement points.


Prices & Claimed Weights

Shimano XT

Shimano XT 12 speed prices
Shimano SLX

Shimano SLX 12 speed prices




Product launches are often held in far-flung locations that require a full day's worth of travel to get to, followed by a couple days of riding on unfamiliar trails and equipment while battling jet lag. For the launch of XT and SLX, representatives from Shimano made the trip up to my home trails in Bellingham, Washington, which meant that I didn't need to spend any time in the germ tube, and could focus on the products' performance without trying to remember what time zone I was in.

The bike I was aboard was the new Ripley, Ibis' latest version of their classic light and lively trail bike. It was outfitted with the new XT components from tip to tail, with a 10-51 tooth cassette and four-piston brakes.

I've been putting the miles in on the XTR 12-speed group in preparation for a long term review, so it didn't take me any time at all to get used to the feel of the XT drivetrain. Honestly, it's hard to tell a difference between the two groups out on the trail, and that's a good thing. I'd say XTR feels ever-so-slightly more smooth and effortless when shifting, where XT's shifts felt a little more solid, but the difference is barely discernible.

Shimano launch 2019
Bryn Atkinson doing Bryn Atkinson things.

Over the course of two days of riding I didn't need to adjust the drivetrain at all – each click of the lever was met with a quick, crisp shift. Just like with XTR, the XT drivetrain will happily change gears even when you're standing up and mashing on the pedals, no matter how counterintuitive that may seem. The shifter's shape and feel is excellent, and the I-Spec EV mounting system provides a wide range of positioning options. The 51-tooth cog came in handy on a couple of particularly steep climbs, and the jump to that easy gear was nice and smooth - there's no longer the huge, somewhat awkward jump between the final two gears that was found on the XT 11-speed 11-46 tooth cassette. I don't usually backpedal more than a quarter turn or so while I'm riding, but I made a few backwards revolutions to see what would happen, and found that the chain stayed right where it was supposed to be.

There wasn't a whole lot of sustained braking to really put the four-piston brakes to the test, but they did remain consistent the entire time, with plenty of power, especially for the lightweight Ripley. I'm still harboring hopes that Shimano will come out with brakes that have a pad contact adjustment feature, although I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a long time for that wish to come true.

It takes much more than two days of riding to comment on a new drivetrain's durability, but I do think it's safe to say that Shimano are firmly back in the drivetrain game. The prices and weights of the new components are all very competitive, and the shifting performance and feel is top notch - it's hard to ask for much more than that.








mtb.shimano.com


667 Comments

  • + 426
 Shimano kicks in the door to the party carrying a huge pizza.... but all the guests are already full on chips and salsa.
  • + 334
 Even if I am full on chips and salsa, I have always been able to find room for pizza...because it's pizza.
  • + 148
 They'll eat the pizza believe me...it's REALLY good pizza.
  • - 23
flag yetiyot (May 30, 2019 at 9:11) (Below Threshold)
 @vjunior21: not in your chassis though..
  • + 3
 With magic mushroom pizza
  • + 9
 I would said the people is so drunk never notice the pizza guy...
  • + 140
 I've avoided the chips and salsa because I knew this fresh hot pizza was on the way. Pizza > Chips.
  • + 27
 @homerjm:
Regardless of what condition I have ever been in I always see the pizza guy. It's like seeing the white unicorn with the gun slinging cat on its back..."Look at him...He is glorious!!! LOL
  • + 12
 Not me. I want the pizza.
  • + 104
 @DARKSTAR63: Especially when they are charging steak prices for the chips & salsa!
  • + 16
 Binge and Purge...
  • + 2
 @m1dg3t: That is the truth right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • + 12
 However. The pizza is good quality. Unlike the nachos.
  • + 2
 RIP Sram Smile
  • + 1
 @Euskafreez: as every single time... it is easier to be the chasing one. We’ll see what Sram will do in 2-3 years. What do you think? I predict just a lighter version of all Eagle groups.
  • + 9
 @WAKIdesigns: No way, they will use that dual clutch stuff from the AXS (nice for taking a hit I'd guess), maybe a bit lighter and hopefully they try to figure out the shifting under-load that Shimano has done and make that awesome. I think that would be their requirements for an update.
  • + 46
 @WAKIdesigns: I predict SRAM will go back to the drawing board … for better or for worse who knows ????. But first, their marketing department will have some kind of weird but funny answer.

I think the Eagle range is a mess since day one: X01 and XX1 are too close from each other (both technically and financially), GX Eagle ain't XTish at all (some GX components are unreliable expensive junk) and the NX Eagle is a joke (metal alloy made out of chinesium).

The 12sp offer from Sram is confusing at best, so they will have to work on that first. Shimano offers a better working 12sp solution, period. The 12sp XT's price tag is where it's at, cheaper and better (but heavier). And the 12sp SLX shows how much both the NX and GX eagle were a rip off!
  • + 10
 Who gets full on chips and salsa at a party?!
  • + 12
 @homey78: right, I fill up on beer!!!!
  • + 17
 @Euskafreez: Yup. If street prices with Shimano's 11S XT and SLX are anything to go by, you can should be able to nab a 12S XT groupset(no brakes) for $500-600 in a few years or even months. SLX 12S for less than $500 for sure. Shimano's XTR lineup seems to be their only groupset that stays close to MSRP.

I like Eagle, but I like the precision, finish, and feel of Shimano more.
  • + 16
 I'll vomit the chips n salsa for some legit pizza.
  • + 1
 @Euskafreez: their whole line up was a mess since 10 speeds. With 11sp they fkd it, Eagle is just building on that legacy. 10sp XX was already like: ekhem why? Then they made XX1 and X01 which were nearly identical, but at least they had X1. Now it’s a chasm as you say.
  • + 6
 @Almazing: It's generally a 30% reduction off of RRP to get "street price".

So for XT we're looking at:

Derailleur - $80
Crank - $160
Shifter - $42
Cassette - $112
Chain - $30

So around $420 for the complete drivetrain with crankset. And this is soon after launch, once dealers have enough stock to satisfy initial demand.
  • + 19
 @TheRaven: except Shimano's actually enforcing MSRP now, no more finding stuff below wholesale on online retailers. Good luck finding a "Street price"
  • + 6
 @TheRaven: Heard Shimano won't be doing the massive discounts anymore so pricing will stay closer to RRP for the 12 speed stuff....Could be wrong about that but we'll see!
  • + 29
 @Euskafreez props for the word 'chinesium'. That's a keeper.
  • + 1
 @mnorris122: My price information is as of today...now like 8 months after that announcement was made.
  • + 9
 @covekid: German sites will tell the truth...
  • + 4
 @mnorris122: jenson is selling most Shimano stuff at 20% off MSRP - that's for legit packaged retail parts (rather than grey import OEM parts in a Ziploc bag), and they've continued doing that even after CRC stopped shipping Shimano parts to the US. They also process warranties for these parts.
  • + 8
 @TheRaven: Figure in the cost of a new microspline freehub body...and potentially a new rear wheel if you're hub brand doesn't make it.
  • + 0
 @motard5: I'm not going to get into comparing different situations. This is a clean sheet example - one where you don't already have any parts. That's the only way to make a fair comparison.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: bike24 is asking for 1000 EUR for an almost full group set (no hubs nor bb)
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: They have already stated they will not be shipping Shimano out of their region in the future.Shimano is clamping down hard.
  • + 0
 @mnorris122: they can't "enforce" pricing due to antitrust laws (that's why S stands Sugested in MSRP - sellers are free to compete with their pricing). so it would basically mean they did rise the wholesale price so there's no room for big discounts. don't worry, they will start giving ones once they realize they didn't hit sales targets Wink
  • + 6
 SO... the important question... Does this mean that all the Deore/SLX/XT 10/11 speed/2-piston stuff will be clearanced? Big Grin
  • + 10
 @vjunior21: Best comment so far... this one is for you imgur.com/WUkpOmY
  • - 1
 @shimano: the question is... are those shifts as crisp as tacos?
  • + 2
 They said there would be hot, medium and mild salsa, but they all kind of taste the same
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: When 11 speed XT and SLX came out, 10sp versions carried an additional discount while they were still in stock. I remember seeing online pricing for the new stuff discounted around 15% off MSRP, and the 10sp stuff going for around 25-30% off MSRP (compared to around 20% before the new stuff became available). Makes sense - the new stuff is not compatible with the old stuff, so the need for people to replace pieces of their existing drivetrains means the old stuff isn't automatically obsolete and needs to be liquidated.
  • + 2
 That’s fine coz who doesn’t like Pizza for breakfast!
  • + 1
 And insane Guacamole.
  • + 1
 @yetiyot: savage lol.
  • + 1
 Some of us don't fill ourselves up with chips and salsa. Besides chip and salsa (as much as I enjoy them), are an appetizer. YAY PIZZA!!!
  • + 4
 Whistler Opening Day 2020 Survey:

Drivetrain...
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Don't forget the new freewheel
  • + 2
 @Grnnilddcv: They don't have those antitrust laws in the US I think.
  • + 2
 @vtracer: Thanks for that!
  • + 4
 @vtracer: Or even better, check the AvE YouTube channel
www.youtube.com/channel/UChWv6Pn_zP0rI6lgGt3MyfA
  • - 4
flag the-burd (May 31, 2019 at 3:19) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: the xtr shifter is more clunky than crisp
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: I guess people didn't understand my joke.. Tough crowd.
  • - 2
 @streetkvnt-kvlt: they didn't get me though..
  • + 2
 @Grnnilddcv: They can. Shops have a limit on how low they can advertise and sell products (outside special sales and mouth to mouth agreements with individual costumers) so there is no dumping and the market stays healthy. If shops repeatedly breake these rules companies can stop suppling them.
  • + 3
 @DARKSTAR63: exactly! All that Eagle had over 11 speed Shimano was a wider range, that was it. But Eagle is pitifully unreliable in comparison. The number of exploded Eagle derailleurs that I've seen at enduro races over the passed couple of years is astounding! The Eagle chains are rubbish too. Go back and watch the XC WCs, note the number of snapped Eagle chains.

In this battle, more was not better. Shimano took longer to get here, but the product is actually worth rising.

For objectivity, I'll add that I haven't seen Eagle fail outside of racing. If you're a fun rider, by all means, go for it.
  • + 2
 @santoman: That's for a special priority pack. The normal goes for 700 eur (www.bike24.de/1.php?content=8;product=333414;menu=1000,2,16;mid%5B931%5D=1;pgc%5B66%5D=24532).
  • + 1
 @vid1998: in the US, a price can be shown only when added to the basket, thereby not officially advertised. US anti monopoly laws are fantastic. In Canada for instance, the only place that sells Yamaha parts is the Yamaha dealer. In the US, lots of companies can sell Yamaha parts for up to 300% less than here in Canada.
  • + 1
 Just 420... You'll go:" what the heck, let's have the pizza".
  • + 2
 @pooceq: I have been advocating for him to become the official armchair engineer of Pinkbike
  • + 2
 @woofer2609: 300% less?!! How does that work? I buy $100 worth of parts and they pay me $200? I want in on that !
  • + 0
 @Mac1987: No, you either pay $300 CAD or $75 USD, which is 300% less. Do the math.
  • + 1
 @santoman: That's for the "Priority Pack" ... I think they have to sell it at RRP: www.bike24.com/p2330715.html?q=M8100

The real drivetrain group is 699 Euro: www.bike24.com/p2333414.html?q=M8100
  • + 5
 @woofer2609:
$300 x 300% = $900
$300 - $900 = -$600

Good deal
  • + 2
 @Chris97a: I've been bad at maths my whole life. It made sense in my head. Stuff can cost up to 300% more here.
  • + 2
 @woofer2609: your Canadian math is funny. I love the idea of a rebate check though.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 5:45) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: hahaha. Is he shouting f*cking sram?
  • + 9
 @thenotoriousmic: yes... hahhaha

for the record I rode NX Eagle two days ago, it is utter shit. I wouldn’t pay 100£ for a whole group. The shifting takes time, feels and sounds like transformers taking a real hard shit. Anyone speccing it on a bike more expensive than 1.5k should be shot in the knee. The one I rode was well setup. I just couldn’t believe it. GX is ok, it feels like good old X7 but NX is terrible. Terr fkng ible. It doesn’t even stand by Deore and I’d rather run Alivio in 2 ring setup than that
  • - 8
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 6:42) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: NX is alright I’ve run it with a slx 11 speed cassette on my kids bike but I wouldn’t use it myself. It’s basically a nicer version of slx but I wouldn’t run that ether.
  • + 9
 @thenotoriousmic: we must have ridden different nx and slx...
  • - 8
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 7:47) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns slx on a whole is decent. Not ridden the new stuff obviously but the old shifter and derailer is absolutely repulsive. Especially the shifter. I could make do with a NX shifter though. Slx derailer is a waste of money they don’t last.
  • + 8
 @thenotoriousmic: As for aftermarket choices SLX der is not worth the money because XT costs just 20£ more, you get better pulleys and stronger backe plate. SLX shifter offers nothing over Deore. So if you want to buy Shimano shifter/ derailleur set the only thing that makes sense is either Deore or XT. You may eventually go for XTR shifter if you want more crisp feedback on your thumb. XTR rear mech is not worth a single penny over XT.

Having said that GX is on Deore level in my books, lowest acceptable quality from SRAM. And then there’s a chasm tocross to X01/XX1 which are nearly identical but cost more than XTR.
  • - 7
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 10:03) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: yeah gx is is definitely on deores level. I’m loving this bait. What else you got?
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: nothing. Just stated my actual personal on hands experience since until 3 weeks ago I couldn’t comment on nx and gx. And since I rode Eagle a few times this year I can say that I am even more confident that 50t cog is a fancy chain guard ring stopping the chain from falling between cassette and spokes. 10-42 is a lot, 10-46 is plenty. Climbing on 32t front and 50t rear cannot be called cycling anymore. My 65 year old father walks up a hill faster...
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 10:32) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: yeah I agree with you on that one. I’m planning on sticking to 11 speed for as long as possible. I don’t need eagle at all. I don’t even need all the gears I’ve got right now. Currently using xo1 shifters and gx mechs after ripping my mech off on a biking trip and having to use what I could find at short notice. I’d be absolutely gutted if my gx was taken away and I was forced to go back to xt. Though I’ve not tried the new stuff yet. 10-42 with a 32t chain ring is enough for what I do. Embarrassing to say this but sometimes I even get top tens on Strava climbs but don’t tell anyone.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: I'll happily take that 50t here on the solid rock formation we call the northeast.

And yes, your 65 year old father can probably climb faster than me. But i'm happy to at least be doing it on the bike.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: Can't stop laughing at the video, it's gold! But as an insider working in the road races I'm not surprised at all.

People don't believe me when I told them most of the pro roadies hate Sram products. I'll have to share the video. Back when I started working around the 2012 Giro, it was already the case and racers made fun of the poor souls on Sram. And it's always a different issue, at least Mollema's AXS was mis-shifting, big improvement over last year's etap not shifting at all for no reason.

The teams on the road with no drivetrain sponsorship they all buy Shimano. All for good reasons, it's even worse for Sram with teams refusing money from them just to avoid their products. Sram offers loads of cash to the brave teams using their products. Through the years they have lost so many teams. Too bad they are the only real alternative to Shimano in the mountain bike world.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 3, 2019 at 5:59) (Below Threshold)
 @Euskafreez: ah yeah let’s value the opinions of the drug cheats who have spent the last 20 years turning their noses up at disk brakes but are happy doing roadside blood transfusions. Roadies are literally the worst of the very worst and their options are dirt and even if it was true it only makes me respect sram more.
  • + 5
 @TheRaven: no shame in climbing slow. We all have our own pace. If someone feels that a 34t front and 11-42 rear is sufficient on a 1x drivetrain, more power to them. Manliness is not determined by (gear) inches Wink
  • + 4
 @woofer2609: Fist bump to you sir.

The way I look at it is this - hate on principle is silly in this sport. If it's something that's going to improve my riding, or make my day on the trails more awesome, then i'm all for it.

But i've also learned that there are a-hole fanboys in every single sport and pastime we have.
  • + 4
 @DARKSTAR63: Haven't ever considered Eagle, as I new this day would come.. got a month on the new XTR brakes and they are just what we have been waiting for.. #pizzaplease
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: Call then drug cheats if you want but I'd like other sports being drug tested as much as those pro roadies.

Regarding the drivetrain subject, their feedback on drivetrains is of high value. You don't win races on road because of your equipment (or not very often), but you can lose races easy because of a mechanical. And the chances of losing a race because of a mechanical issue is higher if you use Sram, it's not a urban legend.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 4, 2019 at 6:45) (Below Threshold)
 @woofer2609: honestly I get off and push before going into my 42 tooth it’s actually faster than you can pedal with gears that high. Well it is for me anyway. Bike just wheel spins or wants to do a wheelie and the front starts wondering about. Absolutely hate climbing anyway.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 4, 2019 at 6:48) (Below Threshold)
 @Euskafreez: they run rim brakes on carbon wheels. You can’t trust a word they say especially considering all the drugs they’re on. Wink on the plus side a roadie pulled in front of me today at traffic lights and couldn’t unclip. A proper gift from the universe when he toppled off. He was ok though.
  • + 4
 @thenotoriousmic: At least the guy you're making fun of was on a bike.
  • + 2
 What do drug tests and silly ideas about not using disc brakes, have to do with hilarious video of Sram AXS not shifting, which is already barely relevant to discussing mountain bike groups?
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: did a roadie eat your puppy ?
  • + 1
 @Mac1987: *points at bear* the roadie touched me here and it felt icky.
  • + 139
 Thank the baby jesus, shimano you just made my week
  • - 62
flag GatoGordo (May 30, 2019 at 8:18) (Below Threshold)
 If this made your week. You need to get out of the house more often.
  • + 25
 I got all excited but I have King hubs so Shimano isn't an option until King can make a microspline driver.
  • + 9
 @reverend27: or just run another 12speed cassette. the XTR group works plenty fine with an Eagle cassette.
  • + 11
 @reverend27: Yup. XT and SLX cassettes won't be an option for a lot of people until they allow more hub manufacturers to use the microspline driver. I'm not upgrading my rear hub just to use Shimano 12 speed. SRAM stuff works just fine....
  • + 1
 HALLELUJAH!
  • + 59
 @covekid: So, Shimano sucks because their 12spd uses microspline but SRAM is Ok because they use Xd driver?

Gotcha.
  • + 32
 XT with DT 350 hubs = done.

No more cassettes made of cheese, derailleurs with play from new, BB's that creak faster than a Fox CSU, and chains that eat the chainring when you're in the 50T.
  • + 4
 @Klainmeister: one of the main reasons I would upgrade is for hyperglide ie being able to shift under power both up and down is the selling point.
Otherwise I'm happy with my di2 2x xx1 10-42 combo.
  • - 29
flag reverend27 (May 30, 2019 at 9:20) (Below Threshold)
 @m1dg3t: no dumbass it's because microspline is only lisensed to a few manufacturer.
Do some reading before spewing shit.
  • + 2
 Mine too! I'm ready to buy a new bike and hopefully I can get one with the new Shimano SLX!!
  • - 8
flag thenotoriousmic (May 30, 2019 at 9:27) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: er what?
  • - 6
flag m1dg3t (May 30, 2019 at 9:32) (Below Threshold)
 @reverend27: *Warning: Idiot alert* ^^
  • + 16
 @reverend27: understood, but if you're like me and sick of bending, fixing and adjusting Eagle derailleurs then the 12spd Shimano shifter/der combo is a drop in fix. Shifts just as good, keep your wheels, be done with fiddling.
  • - 4
flag Fix-the-Spade (May 30, 2019 at 9:33) (Below Threshold)
 @reverend27: Maybe they'll do it before I retire... in 35 years time.
  • - 29
flag thenotoriousmic (May 30, 2019 at 9:47) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: I can get my xt cassette to flex with my hands my x0 doesn’t but don’t worry I’m sure these new pressed steel cassettes won’t be the same old shit they’ve been making for the last 20 years.
  • + 7
 @m1dg3t: I was hyper-skeptical of the XD driver for many years, but at this point it's at least as widely available as HG if not more so, and to boot it's a far better mechanical interface. I'm now skeptical of MicroSpline for the same reasons (not to mention that it's yet another "standard").

That said, XT remains my favorite groupset ever and here's hoping that Shimano opens up the license.
  • + 19
 @covekid: They will, because Shimano needs those drivetrains on complete bikes. Every hub manufacturer who is active in the OEM market will have microspline by the end of the year.
  • + 7
 @m1dg3t: Didn't say that. Just said I'm not interested because I would need to buy a new rear hub to use this stuff. Everyone with King, Onyx, E13, Formula or other generic hubs are in the same boat. If Shimano would open up their license to allow everyone to use the new driver standard (like SRAM did with XD) they would sell a LOT more. I would love to try this stuff but buying a new hub don't make it worth it.
  • + 5
 @covekid: they don't need to open up the license, hub manufacturers just need to find a way around it.

White Industries has done just that, and made their own micro spline compatible freehub. Onyx also has microspline compatibility coming on their Vesper hubs. I'm sure king with come to market with something soon.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (May 30, 2019 at 10:59) (Below Threshold)
 @privateer-wbc: so you need to change your hub if you want to run shimano 12 speed? They haven’t just made it with a 11 tooth?
  • - 6
flag reverend27 (May 30, 2019 at 11:11) (Below Threshold)
 Just got a response from CK on Facebook they still do not have license for microspline. So whoever those other companies who are supposed to be getting microspline license Chris King hubs will not be one of them. Which makes me want to rip everything Shimano off my bike.
  • + 6
 @privateer-wbc: But why wouldn't they just open the license? Make little to no sense. SRAM saw that if they wanted to rule the market with a new standard they had to just open XD. Heard Shimano is making OE's jump through weird hoops to get access as well. Seems small minded. I would love to try this new stuff because I prefer Shimano to SRAM, but i'm not building a new rear wheel to do it....I'll stick with my 11 speed Shimano with E13 cassette for now...
  • + 4
 @reverend27: King has had their microspline solution ready for 9 months. Shimano won't license it to them (yet).
  • + 1
 @covekid: agree. Stupid strategy. Its like they are trying to lose market share.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: all depends which hub you mean. I believe with white, you just need a new freehub body. Same with I9, DT, etc. With Onyx, I'm not clear at the moment. Initially, it will be the Vesper hubs. I can only hope they will over for their non-versper also, eventually!
  • + 13
 @covekid: XD wasn't completely open at first either. It still isn't technically COMPLETELY open as you still need to get SRAM's permission, and just like they would with Shimano, they can choose to deny any application.

As for Shimano, the reluctance to license MicroSpline is due to manufacturing capability. Shimano needs to see that the applicant can reliably meet specification before they will sign off.

The bottom line is this - now that we know that both XT and SLX use MicroSpline, it's only a matter of time before all the significant players have MicroSpline options in their hubs.
  • + 3
 @thenotoriousmic: if you are fine with 11 tooth, and don't need the 10, and like me the difference between 11 speed and 12 is nil, I would say stick with 11 speed Shimano and snag a sunrace MX80 Cassette in 11-50t. That's how I just built my own bike. Use XT11 or XTR11, and a Wolftooth goat link, and save a bundle. We did a trip to North Carolina and this set up was also super popular in/around Pisgah. A good many of the MX80 cassettes in use there from what I could tell.
  • - 11
flag ukr77 (May 30, 2019 at 12:10) (Below Threshold)
 Xt cassettes have historically been made of cheese, now with the two largest cogs made of aluminum???? @jclnv:
  • - 7
flag thenotoriousmic (May 30, 2019 at 12:22) (Below Threshold)
 @privateer-wbc: I’m on 10 / 46 don’t need 1st 2nd 10th and 11th gears. Haha
  • - 10
flag thenotoriousmic (May 30, 2019 at 12:36) (Below Threshold)
 @ukr77: shimano fan boys live in an alternative universe mate. I’ll leave two examples of how to build a cassette. Machined from one piece of steel to shift perfectly or sheet metal stamped into shape. I’ll let you decide what’s the quality product and what’s cheese.

singletrackworld.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/3/files/2017/05/Shimano_XT_Cassette_5.jpg

content.competitivecyclist.com/images/items/900/SRM/SRM009W/BK.jpg
  • + 4
 @reverend27: I'd be shocked if Jing and Hope we're more than a few weeks out on that. There'll he a lot of demand, and this will be around for a long time.
  • + 10
 @thenotoriousmic: waki asked you a while ago, and I wonder too. Can you please elaborate why machining is better than stamping for the given aplication?
  • + 9
 @ismasan: it's fancier.

Honestly, my cheese shifts fine. I use both SRAM and Shimano and can't be bothered to spend an extra $300 for a cnc'd block for marginal gain in shift quality.
  • - 21
flag thenotoriousmic (May 30, 2019 at 13:40) (Below Threshold)
 @ismasan: it’s been machined to the micron to allow for the best possible shifting, strength, weight, durability do I really need to explain why that’s better than putting a sheet of metal in a press and roughly stamping out some sprocket’s?
  • + 8
 @thenotoriousmic: Assuming the dies are of sufficient quality stamping is as accurate as milling, if the steel is soft enough to be milled it's no harder than a stamped part, so the way they're made doesn't give SRAM or Shimano much advantage. The Shimano factory won't be like BSA smashing out Sten guns for £2.30 ready to fire.
  • + 15
 @thenotoriousmic: Sounds like someone bought the marketing line...
  • + 17
 @ratedgg13: Ahahaha. "Machined to the micron" - yeah, he's been guzzling the SRAM koolaid.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: hahaa yes please, explain, I'm not the sharpest tool in the box Smile
  • + 1
 @covekid: I agree. Microspline is PITA for all. That said given the price and if XT feels nearly as buttery smooth as XTR stated in this article, I would consider replacing my GX Eagle drivetrain with XT when the time comes. Hopefully by then there will be more hub/driver options.
  • - 6
flag Svinyard (May 30, 2019 at 15:23) (Below Threshold)
 @smoothmoose: Just swap it out and use the SRAM cassettes. You won't notice a difference. I found an article where a guy just swapped out the GX rear derailleur with the XTR RD and everything worked awesome apparently. Most of this stuff will all mix and match. If/when I kill my X01 RD I'd consider going to an XTR one or XT for sure.
  • - 14
flag thenotoriousmic (May 30, 2019 at 16:40) (Below Threshold)
 @Fix-the-Spade: sorry what a stamped part is as accurate as a CNC’ed part? Who’s been drinking the cool aid again? I’m guessing the fact that it works a whole lot better and as a result have wiped shimano off the market is just one big coincidence then? Witchcraft maybe?
  • + 12
 @thenotoriousmic: you are forgetting that mountain bikes get ridden thru mud and shite (or do you just hang yours on a wall and stare at it?) and as soon as that happens your 1 micron is going to disappear, & also chain & cassette are a wear item. Sram may have good product ideas but they are on crack with the amount they expect people to pay for components. A shiny gold xx1 cassette may look good on a pro race bike, but in the real world where people actually ride their bikes it is a waste of time.
  • + 2
 @dobermon: I want that 51 tooth cog real bad
  • - 5
flag Svinyard (May 30, 2019 at 21:05) (Below Threshold)
 @zyoungson: come on man, they have done fine with that drive train. Its compatible with everything even other companies cassettes, there are multiple versions to fit a budget, and it's been out for years along with them getting it on OEM bikes everywhere quickly. It could be a lot worse, hard to be pissed at them for that...plus it's easy to get it all on sale.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Due to the degree of ratchets. I guess POE has to get to a certain capability. If you were to look at DT and i9 what's their POE. What about the rest of hub manufacturers would their POE be just as good? Guess their (shimano) baseline would be a minimum bite point some what of DT and i9 hubs and bearing load.
  • - 5
flag ColinD (May 31, 2019 at 1:45) (Below Threshold)
 @Ttimer: currently only shimano and dtswiss are licensed for the microspline body.
So unless @shimano opens up the license to other manufacturers we won't be able to use it on other hubs then shimano and dtswiss.

(source: Hope)
  • + 10
 @ColinD: That is last week's news. Newmen, Mavic and Syncros also have microspline, other oems will follow.

The only ones who might have to wait quite a bit are the aftermarket boutique hub brands like Hope, Chris King, Project 123 or Tune.
  • - 11
flag thenotoriousmic (May 31, 2019 at 4:38) (Below Threshold)
 @zyoungson: so your logic is it’s going to wear out anyway so you might as well buy a cheap stamped cassette? Two years on a x01 cassette I’ve got a spare one I’ve used about ten times can’t actually tell the difference really it’s hardly worn at all. Well at the end of the day you get what you pay for. Want something cheap that does the job temporarily buy shimano want high end that lasts buy sram. That’s what I do.
  • + 8
 @thenotoriousmic: At least Shimano puts their stamped cogs on a spider. Unlike SRAM who leaves them loose so they chew up your freehub. The last few cassettes I have replaced have been exactly for that reason.

Do you work for SRAM? Seriously. You are here trying to compare $350+ cassettes to ones that can be had for $80. LoL
  • + 8
 @Ttimer: I wonder where these people were crying & screaming when SRAM released XD drivers how ever many years ago? I think it's pretty safe to say that within a year, maybe 2, that everybody and their grandma will have the microspline option available.

It's almost as if people don't understand how things work.
  • - 12
flag thenotoriousmic (May 31, 2019 at 5:56) (Below Threshold)
 @m1dg3t: see what I mean about living in an alternate universe? Sram cassettes screw off couldn’t be easier however leave a shimano cassette on for a decent amount of time and there’s a good chance it’s gouged itself into the freehub body though unlikely to get stuck it still looks shit.

No I don’t work for sram i use wayvmore of their stuff but I still use a lot of shimano as well. I run four bikes. I just think they deserve more credit than they’re getting of these biased fanboys on the front page of pinkbike. Shimano don’t care about mountain biking they got into this sport by accident neither do sram go and find a rider owned company to fanboy over. That said haven’t ridden the new stuff could be decent. It needs to be.
  • + 13
 @m1dg3t: He's a fanboy. It's a waste of time trying to talk to him - his comments get downvoted into oblivion in a matter of minutes so you end up looking like you're talking to air...which is fitting cause you pretty much are.
  • + 11
 @Svinyard: Yeah but even on sale it's still more expensive than Shimano. Then when Shimano goes on sale - no brainer.

The overarching point with SRAM is that unless you just prefer the way SRAM does things, or their aesthetic (which I will admit can be pretty awesome - i've always thought XO1 is one of coolest looking drivetrains ever), there's absolutely no reason to buy. Shimano offers better durability, better reliability, and it's cheaper to boot. I always say - buy what you like (especially when you are spending this kind of money) but don't fool yourself about why you are buying it.
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: You are a fool. Re-read my previous comment until you understand the words contained therein.
  • + 10
 @thenotoriousmic: Correct, comes down to cost-benefit. 2 years on a sram cassette? Far out, you weigh 55kg or you have glass cranks? I ride bikes for enjoyment, and crunching a gear or putting a bike thru its paces knowing you are chewing out a $$$$ cassette doesnt sound like a good time to me. Got 6 months out of a sram cassette before it it was worn to the point it didnt feel good to ride, then rode for another 3-4 because for the amount they cost it didnt feel right to bin it after only a few months of use. I honestly couldnt give 2 shits how a cassette is put together as long as it does the job and i can enjoy riding. Im guessing you are on sram 11spd? the 12spd skips a tooth when you shift into the 42 or 50t cog, its f*cking horrible. There are cassettes out there that do a better job and cost 1/3 of sram rrip off pricing. Buy gear at reasonable prices, run it hard, get rid of & replace with fresh bits when the time comes without feeling like you are pissing money down the drain. Sram can get f*cked.
  • + 8
 @TheRaven: There are fanboys (SRAMboys) and then there are idiots...
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: ????????
  • - 10
flag thenotoriousmic (May 31, 2019 at 6:50) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: when you’re trolling fanboys every downvote is a victory especially when followed by personal insults. Well it’s obviously just a coincidence sram wiped shimano off the market then? Haha you’re all adorable as much fun as it’s been I’m going to leave you to enjoy your plastic thumb shifters. Xxx
  • + 5
 @thenotoriousmic: Downvotes are there for a reason. When every single one of your posts gets downvoted out of existence, you are supposed to get the hint. But you don't. That makes you a troll.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (May 31, 2019 at 8:19) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: anyone who actually takes the time to get someone’s comments deleted just because they don’t agree with what they’re saying isn’t worth worrying about. Especially on an article like this. I’ve never downvoted anyone in my life. A decent counter argument would be nice but I’m not going to get that of you bunch of wet flannels or I’d have got it by now. Haha enjoy your downvoting I’m off out riding.
  • + 4
 @thenotoriousmic: the counter argument - All my (3 of 4 current setups of) mixed XT/XTR/Sunrace/KMC/YBN drive terrains shift without any snap/crackle/pop. Always smooth, no jumping, no skipping, and near silent most of the time. I keep things clean and waxed, and in good adjustment. I get 4-5 chains on a single cassette when replacing at or near 0.5% wear. They shift well, and they last as long as any other Cassette I've used. The cassettes are heavy (Shimano/Sr), relative to SRAM, but that doesn't bother me - weight at the hub matters little, at least to my taste. I would love the weight of SRAM, but it's just not worth the extra coin when XT/MX80 can be had for close to $100 CAD.

I also have an X1 11 speed set up. It to works very well going into its 3rd or 4th season, but I will be hard pressed to replace with SRAM componentry (cassette especially) when the average consumer can get an entire Shimano drive terrain for the price of a 1195 cassette, that really offers marginal shifting improvement at best, and perhaps none at all - despite the CNC vs stamp argument - my Shimano shifts clean enough that I simply don't feel the need to look for reason to spend more money.

I'd rather save the big bucks and spend towards a riding trip. Or better suspension/wheels/brakes etc.

But this is all a matter of preference in the end, no? And we we all place value. Which I can only really value if people have substantial personal experience to offer - and on that basis, all I can to is listen - I'm not going to argue you having good experience with SRAM or poor with Shimano, or tell you that you are wrong (how can I tell you your experience is wrong?) - just want to offer up that I have had excellent experience with Shimano, and appreciate keeping the extra dough in my pocket. Certainly not worth hurling personal insults for.
  • + 1
 @privateer-wbc: Cassette weight definitely factors into suspension performance. It's unsprung mass afterall.

Also you can't compare old Shimano or current SRAM to new XTR (and hopefully these new groupsets). The shifting action, shifting under load, the lack of friction etc is in another league.
  • + 3
 @jclnv: sure yes, but I don't thing 100-200g is going to be ground breaking in terms of suspension performance. But that's again, simply my opinion and experience.

And totally true, the new XTR should be even better. But my point is, even before XTR, my well set up and maintained 11 speed Shimano didn't lack much in terms of shifting quality - certainly not enough to warrant an expensive 12 speed upgrade, in my mind
  • + 3
 @privateer-wbc: The cassette weight is damn near a non-factor. All these guys complaining about another 80g at the axle while running 1100g minions/sealant/tape. THAT'S a killer. Shave 100g off that tire choice and that's like losing the cassette completely.
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: absolutely. You and I are on the same wave length. You are bang-on.
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: It all adds up. Thing is a good tire adds grip, what performance loss is there from running a lighter cassette? And I say that as someone who runs the most minimal tires I can get away with.

I agree that 11spd is great but the arms race moves on. Wait till you try that XTR.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: Performance loss from a lighter cassette? A broken cassette.

And yes it adds up, but 100g at the tire is worth many times what 80g at the axle is. So I say go after the grams that matter most.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: assuming speed doesn't count on traction. Obviously conditions and track matter - but you know this - light a as you can get away with is always a smart choice - but obviously not at the sacrifice of needed traction or durability. Its all a balancing act.

But if I can get away with a lighter tire and not lose traction, or end up cutting though a casing - hell yeah, that weight matters far more than hub centric weight.

Many people are *over tired* out there.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: I would definitely like to try!
  • + 0
 @jclnv: I'm holding out for wireless Di2 with a 2x drivetrain and featherlight cassette. That would be the bees knees.
  • + 2
 @TheRaven: I see far more broken GX cassettes than XO1 go through warranty.

It's all unsprung mass. Your suspension doesn't care if it's rotational or not.
  • + 1
 @Ttimer: Maybe but I would be happy with cable XTR. It's got a satisfying feel, like a really good car gearbox or bolt action on a gun (not that I really know what the latter is like but I think the comparison applies).
  • + 2
 @jclnv: I don't think he is arguing about unsprung versus rotational. I think he is saying that be values rotational weight savings more for those related benefits, than benefits of unsprung mass. I feel the same. Couple hundred grams don't fuss me too much in terms of suspension performance, but definitely get my attention in terms of rotational mass. Especially if it's at the wheels extremity - tires/rim.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: Yes, I wired Di2 feels super nice but is such a pain to retrofit if it doesn't come spec on the bike.
  • + 4
 @privateer-wbc: Weight has little to do with traction in terms of a tire. Traction is tread and compound. Weight comes from puncture resistance. There are plenty of lighter weight options that grip as well or better than a minion...the difference is they may not make it to the bottom of the mountain where a minion would.

@jclnv: Rotational mass absolutely makes a difference to your suspension. But that's secondary to the most important effect - lever arm. That tire weight is levered anywhere from 11-13" past your rear axle, and it's spinning. Those are all effect multipliers, so to speak. All i'm saying is this - shave 100g off your tire, and you can run double the cassette weight.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: and 11-13" in front of your rear axle Wink
  • + 4
 @jclnv: Yes, that too. But the stuff in front of your axle doesn't matter near as much as the stuff behind it.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Fair enough. I changed an NX cassette for an X01 and the suspension is a fair bit more reactive.
  • - 4
flag StevieJB (Jun 2, 2019 at 12:58) (Below Threshold)
 @m1dg3t: Yes because I spotted this on single track world, new shimano microspline photo with the splines being chewed up by the loose single steel rings. XD is a superior design.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/17289240
  • - 4
flag StevieJB (Jun 2, 2019 at 13:00) (Below Threshold)
 @bmck: good reason to be sceptical of microspline, photo from single tracks review, microspline chewed by the small loose steel rings. XD wins for me having seen this photo of a virtually new driver. www.pinkbike.com/photo/17289240
  • - 7
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 16:15) (Below Threshold)
 @StevieJB: you’re wasting time. It’s like telling a Christian that Jesus didn’t exist or something. You just can’t reason with them. They’ve picked a side and that’s the end of it.
  • + 5
 @thenotoriousmic: Congrats, you just won the irony of century award.

Wow.
  • + 5
 @StevieJB: I'm just going to leave this here:

www.google.com/search?ei=YWb0XJn4E4jl_QafhYKoBg&q=XD+cassette+seized+on+driver&oq=XD+cassette+seized+on+driver&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160.1718.7523..7603...0.0..0.152.2975.8j19......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131j0j0i67j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i13j0i13i30j0i13i10i30j33i299j33i22i29i30.MWMLPnSAP2k

Seems like there may be no "magic" freehub. We all know about how the classic Shimano one gets chewed up by cheap cassettes, and how the XD driver has a habit of permanently fusing itself to cassettes. It remains to be seen how MicroSpline performs, but I wouldn't expect a whole lot of improvement on that particular front.
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 17:25) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: haha course I am. Like I said it’s no coincidence sram have absolutely obliterated shimano over the last five years or so. People voted with their wallets. You lost get over it. Facts lad facts. X
  • + 5
 @thenotoriousmic: FYI Shimano is doing 3x the business SRAM is, and still widening the gap.

Facts indeed my friend.
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 17:39) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: hahaha absolutely deluded. Not been in a bike shop recently have you? Good luck finding a bike with a shimano groupset. All sram babes. Meanwhile anything shimano is in the bargain bin on chain reaction while sram is still sold at a premium. Can’t sell something reduce the price something’s selling well it doesn’t get discounted. See now you’re getting it.
Stop being stubborn. Get involved. There’s absolutely no reason for the ridiculous blind loyalty. You’re cutting your nose of to spite your own face. Shimano doesn’t care about you or mountain biking in general it’s just a business mate. SRAM’s no different. I’ll buy whatever works the best. Do the same.
  • + 4
 @thenotoriousmic: You said facts. So I went with facts.

No ridiculous blind loyalty here...that's all on you. And I'm not getting into it with you, i'll just watch you get downvoted into nothing. Buh-bye.
  • - 8
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 2, 2019 at 18:18) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: victory is mine. I love wiping the floor with these deluded fan boys. I look forward to my downvote you petty little boy.
  • + 2
 @TheRaven: Fair play, I've yet to experience that myself though.

I had really been looking forward to buying the scylence hub (quieter the better far as I'm concerned) and the originally mentioned 11sp cassette that sadly hasn't appeared but now I see microspline has the same issue as the old design and the cassettes are loads heavier than XX1 11sp I'm not seeing it as worthwhile. I currently run XT crank, mech and shifter with XX1 cassette and chain and it's flawless and very light weight, the 3 more teeth on the 10-45 would have been a bonus but not enough to change. The 51T is of no interest.
  • + 1
 @StevieJB: I'm with you on the quiet hubs.

Since i'm a bike mechanic enthusiast (is that a thing?), I have quite a few more bikes than average come through my shop, and most of them are OE spec'd GX through X01, and it's actually a rare treat when I can get the cassette off without my special rigged-up setup that i created to handle seized cassettes. From my experience, at least 3/4 of the SRAM 11-speed drivetrains that come through my shop have this issue. Conversely, while pretty much all the of Shimano freehubs that I encounter are notched to some degree, it's exceedingly rare that I need to go out of my way to get the cassette off.

This is why, when I go 12-speed, I will likely just go with the Sunrace cassette. I use DT hubs pretty much exclusively, so I could go with MicroSpline...but it's $90 for the freehub and I can get either regular Shimano or XD for $40. I want no part of seized cassettes on my bike so i'll stick with the good 'ole Shimano freehub. Plus, i'm NEVER paying $200+ for a cassette, so that means it's GX vs. XT/Sunrace, and there's no comparison there.

Besides, even the XT M8100 cassette is what, like 110g heavier than XX1 Eagle? You can't possibly justify 3x the cost for a weight difference that would only be noticed on a cross-country hardtail.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I didn't make the statement more weight = traction. But typically, for aggressive riding in more technical environments, the weight is a penalty you pay for more rubber associated with bigger lugs and more aggressive tread. Some places you need tires like a minion - you pay for more traction with additional weight, amongst other things. I'd love all tires to weight like an Ikon or ardent race, but any tire at that weight will generally be be sketch in any serious bike park, for instance. In such instances, the minion is faster and the weight is more than welcome.
  • + 1
 @privateer-wbc: Agreed. But if you are willing to pay a 400g penalty for bulletproof tires, then a 60-100g penalty for more range should be nothing. On the other hand, if it is more than you can stomach, then just stick with 11-speed, or 10-speed...whatever you got.

My thinking is, generally, if you are running the heavy ass tires then you are more concerned about going downhill than uphill and really don't need the extra range. If you are so worried about going uphill you are unlikely to need that much tire...cause it's also going to be a major drag (lol) on the climbs.

Me, I ride rocks and steeps...but i'm good with making it down the hill. Getting up it is where I need all the help I can get. Therefore i'll take all the cassette the industry offers, and if the weight is too much, i'll cut back on tire.
  • + 2
 @TheRaven: to each their own. Ultimately, as long as we make ourselves happy, that's all that matters Razz

I figure if you need the beefy tires, and extra 100-200g for a cassette isn't a big deal - weight at the hub is much easier to get spinning. For me, weight of the tire is dictated by the trails I'll be riding - obviously thats always a balancing act - weight/traction/durability.
  • + 117
 some bike company pls spec their alu bike with highest end fork and shock and with slx/xt groupset please....
  • + 24
 Knolly bikes, Banshee bikes, Commencal bikes, Just to name a few
  • + 8
 Wait wrong comment I'm sorry I didn't mean to reply to you and now it sounds like I'm being confrontational or whatever
  • + 7
 A Giant with a full SLX group, DVO suspension front and rear, and a decent paint job would be mint.
  • + 6
 @Lookinforit: But it could be, a bike company that also makes carbon bikes please make an alu bike with high end suspension and xt.
  • + 1
 @vid1998: Pivot Mach 6/Switchblade?
  • + 4
 @rezrov:

Giant's asleep at the wheel. Decades later and still no 29er with enough travel to tempt the largest segment of the market. Meh.
  • + 12
 Being a big guy, my next bike is likely a custom build - buy a solid alloy frame, add beefy suspension/brakes/hubs/rims, SLX drivetrain, OneUp dropper, and don't have to worry about spending the first year having to replace shit all the time.
  • + 1
 Alloy or carbon wheel though
  • + 1
 Cotic with Cane Creek suspension?
  • + 1
 Bird Bikes - Solid, bang up to date, alu frames, with whatever build kit you fancy
  • + 86
 Hope this means the end of seeing 3 grand bikes running nx eagle groupsets!!
  • + 26
 Agree. 600gr casettes for a wide range is the worst compromise ever.
  • + 12
 Now with new SLX/XT they'll bump the prices up again another $1k.
  • + 14
 @justwan-naride: yeh the weight is one thing but the shifting isn’t great either. Biggest problem I have is more or less every bike in the 2-3 grand price range is nx whereas the year before it was gx eagle or slx/xt. I was looking to change bikes earlier this year but I’d be spending more for a lesser spec bike than what I already owned.
Kick ass user name by the way!!
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: probably....
  • + 1
 @justwan-naride: Almost as heavy as a Trek Emonda Road frame!!
  • + 9
 @h82crash: any 3k bike should've spec 11spd slx, that obsession for a 10t cog is a bit silly to me
  • + 0
 @ismasan: Only if you're willing to overlook the dogshit shifting on the smaller end of the cassette with Shimano 11-speed.
  • + 46
 SLX pricing. Very good.
  • + 13
 And Slx four piston brakes! I want!!
  • + 16
 @cuban-b: You could have bought them anytime during the last 5 years, they are called ZEE.
  • + 8
 @Ttimer: if you are on a budget also check mt520, deore 4 piston brakes
  • + 3
 @winko: mt520s are killer, I love mine.
  • + 3
 @clink83: Me too! Certainly best value on the market. Would love to try out saints tho, to see how much am I missing out.
  • + 1
 @Ttimer: that’s just the thing - it has the word ZEE on it Frown
  • + 39
 I really hope I never see NX on a bike ever again. Does SRAM give away NX groups to bike companies for free for their entry level builds?
  • + 4
 Got to get the "low entry" price point
  • + 22
 @mostsleek: Low entry price point on $3k - $4k bicycles. Think about that for a second.
  • + 12
 SX will be on $3000 bikes and NX will be on $4000 bikes. Meanwhile, you can have a GX bike for $5000-$6000.

I hope these new Shimano builds will offer more value for the money. I'm getting really tired of seeing bikes with NX and GX costing $4000 and more.
  • + 12
 NX is such trash... but SRAM is smart and knows consumers who aren't bike nerds see EAGLE branding/12 speed/50 tooth and don't even consider the cassette is over 600 freaking grams... surprised they aren't doing a 2lbs SX cassette.

Awesome work by Shimano here.
  • + 2
 The NX builds are usually only a couple hundred more than the bare frame, but includes fork, wheels, dropper posts, and other components. And the price step up to the GX group is more than buying a GX group outright (although usually some other upgrades as well).
  • + 1
 @racerfacer: Yeah you usually see it come with better brakes for sure, better hub/s with XD and the GX drive train. Typically well worth the cost jump and I think most bike companies set it up that way.

I do like how companies like Ibis provides swappable hub bodies (I didn't know this previously) so if you buy an NX build, you aren't married to the old school hub when you want to jump up to GX/X01 or whatever.
  • + 6
 Well Good News! Now bikes are shipping with SX so people can have an even worse 12 speed experience.
  • + 1
 NX Eagle is flawless on my fatbike, wouldn't trust it on something that get's ridden hard though.
  • + 2
 @jpcars10s: what do you think is the failure point of it? I don't have it, just curious
  • + 4
 @Svinyard: it just has an overall very cheap feel to it. I think it's less about outright failure, and more about how long it takes to have a ton of slop in the mech and feel terrible.
  • + 34
 still 100% happy with my 11spd XT with Sunrace 11-46 cassette
  • + 9
 11 speed 11-50 is also great
  • + 1
 @nrpuk: does the derailleur handle it? any issues?
  • + 2
 @generationfourth: The M9000 RD needs an offset cage to do it, but the M8000 works as is. You don't even have to put a lot of b-screw into it. I have the M9000 with a OneUp Shark cage on a Sunrace 50t cassette on my Enduro bike and it's flawless. A riding buddy of mine has the M8000 bone stock on the same cassette and it's also flawless.
  • + 1
 @generationfourth: commenting because I want to see nrpuk's answer. I'm building up a nukeproof scout and Shimano 11 speed is what i want, and this is a question I've had as well.

I'm also thrilled to see some barely used xtr/xt/slx 11 speed stuff popping up in the buy/sell.
  • + 5
 SLX m7000 drivetrain for me with the Sunrace MX8 11-46 has been super durable.
  • + 3
 Me too.
  • + 1
 AMEN to that man. Do any of you running this setup run into problems with breaking/bending the part of the derailleur body that the low limit screw butts up on? That's my only gripe with this. I wonder if you could run the new XT 12sp derailleur with the rest of the 11sp XT-sunrace group?
  • + 1
 @tigerteeuwen: Yeah except for SLX shifters (I have broken several). Switched to XT shifter and haven't looked back (and you get doubletap downshifts.
  • + 1
 I have that setup as well, but there are pros and cons. XT shifter is good, but the Sunrace is the not the smoothest shifting. XT cassette has smoother shifting but the gearing is not good on the low end.
  • + 2
 Came here to say this.
  • + 1
 @generationfourth: I built bikes with 2 people running a long cage derailleur and the 50t Sunrace cassette with no issues.
  • + 1
 @generationfourth: Works just fine with 11spd SLX rear mech. Shifts great and fits a standard hub.
  • + 1
 @generationfourth: Medium cage is also fine, no need to run long cage.
  • + 1
 I'm on xtr shifter/xt RD with the sunrace 11-46 and it's great....but the 10 and 51t sure would be nice sometimes....hmm.
  • + 3
 Haha, I wanted the old XT before the cost went up, and I got it. The whole gears thing is silly too, in my opinion. Rode my bike today, used 2 gears.
  • + 3
 That butt hurt when you upgraded to XT 8020 brakes just recently. Moral of the story, "never buy anything".
  • + 2
 Im on 11-42, love it.
  • + 1
 @dglass: I will look into that. I Don't totally love the SLX shifter.
  • + 3
 @tigerteeuwen: well dude don't fix it if it ain't broken! Nobody wants a used slx shifter anyway! just use it till it's done. Its not like mtn biking is the new golf (oh wait...).
  • - 1
 Try upgrading to a SLX cassette and you'll immediately notice how much smoother it shifts than with the shitty Sun Race cassette. It's really a big difference. Sun Race was alright when there was a lack of proper wide range cassettes in 9 and 10 speed, but it doesn't belong in the present anymore.
  • + 1
 @generationfourth: I run a medium cage sram NX derailleur with a sunrace 11-50T 11speed cassette and it works great. I have been considering getting an 11-52T cassette but not sure if I'd have to get a long cage deraileur.
  • + 1
 @Mattin: I’ve run an SLX Cassette. I find the Sunrace better. If you’ve got a standard hub, the 11 speed sunrace is more economical that swapping over to Eagle and the new Shimano. Shimano should have made the new SLX like the Sunrace.
  • + 2
 @nrpuk: Sunrace also has 12-speed cassettes for both standard Shimano and XD.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Was under the impression you needed a 12 speed mech for that?
  • + 0
 @nrpuk: I assume you do.
  • + 34
 will we ever see an update to the saint group?!?
  • - 38
flag usedbikestuff (May 30, 2019 at 8:08) (Below Threshold)
 No. it is dead.
  • + 28
 It's perfect as is.
  • + 44
 @usedbikestuff: words of someone who rides mountain bikes, but not in actual mountains
  • + 4
 @usedbikestuff: no,it is not....Watch and see.
  • + 17
 There's already been a few pros seen riding next Gen "Zee" stuff. Nobody paid attention, because it was all marked Zee.
  • + 12
 10 speed ain't dead
  • - 9
flag sunringlerider (May 30, 2019 at 10:04) (Below Threshold)
 @Mntneer:
Words from someone who doesn’t realize one my own a car, van, truck, helicopter and that NC is quite close to SC.
  • + 1
 @sunringlerider: or someone who's seen the product roadmap.
  • + 26
 And Shimano isn't licensing the microspline freehub to everyone. If you have Hope for instance, you're out of luck. Good going Shimano.
  • + 4
 That’s shite
  • + 13
 The free hub thing is such garbage. Sram has been making shimano hub cassettes forever and still are...yet Shimano cant just figure out a way to make this work with XD? We didnt need a second hub std, sram already figured it out yrs ago. I do like Shimanos new offerings tho, but the hub stuff has been ridiculous
  • + 24
 This is all amusing. Everyone was bitching about XD when it came out with almost the same argument of 'new standard'. Shimano's new cassette body (old one was 30+ years old) will be their new standard. In the end, we end up with the same, two cassette bodies for MTB.. I would be willing to bet Hope, King, Onyx, etc. have the new Shimano cassettes soon enough.
  • + 7
 @bman33: at least that std had some new functionality that the other didn't. a 11 to 10t drop is pretty nice without needing longer cage RD etc. This doesn't add anything new. Its the epitome of a useless standard.
  • + 1
 Can you confirm this? I run hope cranks/hubs with 11speed xt on everything..
  • + 22
 @Svinyard, but would you really expect Shimano to use a standard that SRAM developed? That'd be like expecting Toyota to make sure their parts were interchangeable with Ford's.

At the moment the lack of options is a little frustrating if you want to run a hub other than Shimano, DT Swiss or I9, but that's going to change.
  • + 19
 @Svinyard: Shimano can't use XD, SRAM won't license it to them. This was talked about in the XTR articles - XD licensing is free, but it still has to be granted by SRAM.
  • + 1
 @bman33: will shimano license to king? it seems they wont because their hub designs seem so similar
  • + 15
 @senorbanana: They'll have to license to King. There's no way we won't see MicroSpline pretty much everywhere within a couple of years.
  • + 12
 @mikekazimer: agreed. SRAM owns XD and isn't going to share with its direct competition. This launched TODAY. Everyone hold up on the license crusade... @bman33 is right, there are multiple manufactures bringing new cassette bodies to market.

Centerlock only rotor thing surprises me more, but IMO, it's a way better standard than the super tedious 6 bolt standard. Deep down I kinda applaud Shimano for sticking to it and trying to force the change... I hate screwing on 6 bolt rotors.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: If that's what you believe you haven't been paying attention.
  • + 4
 @mikekazimer: Doesn't SRAM make Cassettes that are compatible with the previous Shimano hubs?
  • + 15
 @thenewphonebooksarein: I've always said Centerlock is a much better solution than 6-bolt...it's ridiculous that we are still stuck on 6-bolt.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: Yes they do, and they suck monkey nuts because they chew the shit out of the "standard" freehub shell.
  • + 3
 @mikekazimer: You can add Mavic and Newmen to your list of hub manufacturers offering Micro Spline currently. And as you said, others will be offering it in the future.
  • + 4
 Combine various pressfit BB's with centerlock, xd driver, threaded BB's, 6 bolt i.s., and now MicroSpline, and what we are left with is one giant shitshow of an industry that ensures that only a fool would want to work in a bike shop.
  • - 7
flag mgrantorser (May 30, 2019 at 10:11) (Below Threshold)
 @Svinyard: as a large rider who g enefates a hell of a lot of torque, I'm pretty happy that shimano has released a new standard. I would never ride XD. The spline is too small. I look forward to finally trying 12 speed!
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer: I love this comparison.Found On Road Dead vs slow to change, but insanely reliable lol.
  • + 1
 @richwag So the Hope XD driver was an instant release was it.

You really need to try a DT Swiss wheelset. Far superior to Hopes and more reliable... My basic E1700 haven't needed tensioning or truing in 2 years, plus they don't use an inferior bawled system. Seriously, try them. They're not even expensive
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t:
Does Shimano coolaid have hgh or some other testosterone boost? You are so angry all the time.
  • + 0
 This point confuses me a bit. I'm current;y running XT 2x11, on Bontrager (boost) wheels. Am I good to go on the new 1x12?
  • + 4
 @Swcreates: No you will need a microspline driver. Which is probably not available yet for the hubs on your wheels.
  • + 2
 @timbud: why not both? been running hope hubs ( pro 2 evo and pro 2) with dt swiss rims( ex471, ex511, xm481) without any big problem. just don't recommend the xm481 as they dented pretty easy, and i only had it in the front.
  • + 1
 @nrpuk: Thats whats keeping me from upgrading.
  • + 1
 @thenewphonebooksarein: Centerlock is annoying if you regularly fly with your bike. You have to specifically pack a cassette tool just to remove the damn rotors because airlines can't be trusted not to bend them in transit.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: It allows compatibility with cassettes made in simpler ways to make them accessible to more people. Sram’s freehub requires more complex cassette assemblies which is why their cheaper NX and SX are not compatible with XD and require HG freehub designs. SLX already justifies this approach. You can have a lightweight XTR cassette that rivals SRAMs weights but with better shift quality and either wider range or closer ratio gaps (10-51, 10-45) while also offering the same range/ratio options and superior shifts at lower than Sram prices.
  • + 2
 @tiagomano: Because DT hubs are better!
  • + 3
 @davechopoptions: never had any problem with them, the noise is nicer from hope and the price is in between the dt 350 and the 240.
when i built the wheels i thought of going dt, but i didn't want the 350 because is heavier, and needed to upgrade the star ratchet, and the 240 was more than a 100€ more, so it was not worth it
  • + 1
 @Flowcheckers:
Dude it's really not all that difficult. You probably know half the stuff already. What the hell are you whining about.

Take the two laces, cross them, over under, make the bunny ears, cross, loop and...damn better leave this shoe tying business to the pros. There’s like six steps to this.
  • + 1
 One of the main reasons I prefer the current 10speed XT cassette over SLX (or anything SRAM) is that the sprockets are either separate or on two sprocket clusters (for the bigger sprockets). Usually when I put on a new chain I just pedal heavily (with the rear brake applied) in different gears and replace the sprocket that skips. i never replace the complete cassette, never need to. Now with these new cassettes it seems to be one big spider so their selling point is lost.

Weird to see Pinkbike doesn't mention the new brakes. You'd say they'd be excited by the new four pot SLX brake calipers.
  • + 0
 @mikekazimer: They should have engineered something using a standard hub. I have been running an 11 speed 10-50 cassette. This is durable and works great. Surely Shimano could have done something similar with all there word leading resources?
  • + 2
 @vinay: They surely are good, but why would anyone be excited about the 6th very similar four piston brake from Shimano?
  • - 1
 @TheRaven: How’s a mounting a rotor onto a hub with a ten inch bottom bracket tool better than mounting a rotor with an Allen key that which we all carry around in our bags when we ride? I’m excited to hear you justify this one.
  • + 2
 @thenotoriousmic: Because 1 ring, or 6 screws.
  • + 1
 @Ttimer: Oops, my bad. I didn't notice the bit about the brakes, it happened to be covered under pictures in my browser. But fair enough, they did mention it. I guess I just get more excited by brakes than huge cassettes and cranksets. Who can even tell one crank from another in a blind test (that is, by just riding them)? Obviously what is nice is that XT is getting steel tooth and the SLX cranks get the throwback Shimano Deore LX blue finish.
  • + 0
 @thenotoriousmic: engineering wise it's better. Even force around the entire circle vs. 6 points.

I'd love to hear how often people are removing their rotors during a ride.
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: yet most motorcycles, have much more force on the disc, used bolts as well. Both ways work. Both have pros and cons
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: Engineering is stupid then. The brake force is applied in a single point on the brake track. It is then transferred by a finite number of spokes from the brake track to the center of the disc (where the spokes are part of the same piece of steel or in other cases are part of the spider). Once it is at the center, I don't think it matters much whether it is redistributed along the full circumference (like centerlock) or over those six or four bolts to transfer it to the hub shell. Both ways work. The advantage I see in centerlock is that for the OEM market (bike manufacturers) it is a much quicker way to mount a rotor to a hub with even torque everywhere. The very same reason that made the PM disc brake mount big. The advantage I see in six bolt torx (not allen key) is that if you're riding and find your rotor slightly loose (causing excessive brake noise and vibrations) you can tighten it with the tools you carry with you. And if you bend a rotor on your ride, you can remove it to at least make it back home with a single brake. That's all practical stuff. I've no reason to believe one system will keep up where the other will break.
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: probably right but we’re only attaching a rotor to a hub why over complicate something? I’d rather be able to fix something with a multi tool than need a specific very big very heavy tool that you can’t carry on a ride with you. I’ve never had an issue with ether. I’m actually running 6 bolt ice techs with centre lock adapters... best of both worlds. Haha
  • + 1
 @vinay: exactly what you said.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: A TEN INCH bottom bracket tool?! WTF are you going to do with that? It ain't gonna help you with any rotors.

Instead, with Centerlock, you can simply carry a cassette lockring key, like this:

www.parktool.com/product/cassette-lockring-tool-fr-5

IF you are concerned about your rotors coming loose or something. Back when I ran nothing but Centerlock, I NEVER once carried that tool and never once needed it. However, if you do choose to carry the tool, and you do end up needing it, it will take you about 5 seconds to tighten/remove/reinstall your rotor instead of 30 seconds PER bolt, if you're fast. And don't even get me started on seized/stripped bolts. I'm up to five bolts so far this year i've had to drill out.

Side note - all the ISO bolts i've ever used are Torx T25, and that's not a tool that I purposely carry, since I use Shimano and they stick to allen bolts EXACTLY LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE ON EVERY BIKE EVER. So at least for me, ISO bolts would require me to carry an extra tool anyway...that's if I was concerned about them coming loose.
  • + 1
 @vinay: The argument for Centerlock really has little to do with effectiveness...yes having the load evenly distributed on the hub interface is better, as opposed to six concentration points (which are shear loaded too), however as i'm sure you will attest it's not really a problem for six-bolt as that setup works just fine. The real argument for Centerlock is ease of use and maintenance. It does everything six-bolt does, and is far easier to install, remove, and work on. Fewer parts to break too.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I need a bb tool to lock my rotors. I do have a few lying around that use a cassette tool but I’d still need to bring that with me and a spanner if going on a bike trip or something. I have no problem with 6 bolts but do have a massive problem with all torx fittings though.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: Well we agree on the Torx thing at least. Really bad choice in an application that has used allen bolts since the beginning of dirt.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: They moved to using torx bolts because they could be more shallow than allen bolts. Allen bolts wouldn't fit in the available space.

Never realized this could be an issue really. A multitool with a T25 key doesn't have to be bulky.
  • + 1
 @vinay: Yeah I do believe that my bigger multi-tool does have the T25. The point is this - everyone else uses allen bolts, and they have forever. It's not something that needed to be changed - I mean in the case of SRAM using it for all their drivetrain stuff - as Shimano has proved.

For the brake rotors it's not as big of a deal because for the most part, you mount the rotor, and it stays. It's rare in my experience to have a rotor damaged and they generally last quite awhile. The problem is that when there IS an issue, it REALLY REALLY sucks. Encounter a seized or stripped bolt on the trail and your day is over.

Centerlock solves pretty much all the issues in that design - it's just as durable, weight difference is negligible to non-existent, it uses fewer parts, and it's so much easier to work with when maintenance is needed.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I guess we both have our preferences and experiences and that's all fine. I once had to remove a bent rotor so I was glad that I could. And I never had issues with stripped bolts actually. I tighten them to 6Nm with some blue loctite and they stay put just fine. They never seize or strip when I remove them. I'm in no rush so even though I don't think it takes me 30s per bolt yet still I believe centerlock sure must be quicker, I don't really care. I'm no pro mechanic. I work on my own bike and maybe help a friend out, enjoying a cup of tea in the process. As for T25, the introduction of these was before centerlock so you can't blame them for taking that route when the allen bolts didn't fit. I recall some stem manufacturers decided to work with T25 bolts too. Magura went all out and on their more recent brakes (and their thru axle) they use T25 bolts for nearly everything. So that's the other way around from your reasoning. That is, they say we already have T25 and for the majority of hubs out there this is what we need, let's use it for (nearly) all other bolts too. So that would slim down the multi-tool too. That said, I never considered my multi-tool bulky by any means. Actually, I prefer some "bulk". I need some leverage to operate it under cold/wet conditions. Those really miniature tools won't do it for me. Folding tools as long as the width of my hand are perfect. In most cases, tools this size contain allen keys up to 8mm, a flat blade and a philips screwdriver and a T25 tool. I prefer a separate chain breaker but you can get tools this size that have that one integrated too (and puncture repair kits, CO2 inflators etc...)
  • + 1
 @vinay: Yeah I have to deal with other people's bikes so I don't have the luxury of making sure everything I work on was built "right". I encounter problems with brake rotor bolts all the freakin time.

Magura's thinking is counter productive because frames are all allen-bolt oriented. So they're just making it so that more people have to carry another tool. That said, it is a small tool and often integrated into multi-tools. But you still have the much higher probability of stripping out the bolt head though, as compared to allen.

To circle back to the original point, which still stands - Centerlock does everything that six-bolt does, and is far easier to work on. That's all i'm sayin really.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: The other advantage is that it's impossible to lose the lock ring, whereas people do occasionally lose a rotor bolt. Also, less of an issue, but if the lock ring were to come loose, the load is still transmitted through the splined interface -- the rotor doesn't have ~15-degrees of play rotationally like a 6-bolt would (if all bolts came lose; admittedly unlikely).
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Yeah, I can't argue with that as I have no experience with centerlock. I've never been against it and I do believe that it sure must be fine. I just happen to be fine with what I have. I've got to say I'm surprised to see you've had trouble with bolt heads stripping. People may have already damaged them and/or installed them with too much torque.

I don't really think Magura made it so that people need to carry another tool. You already needed the T25 for the disc rotor. Then you needed the 5mm allen key for a couple of mounting bolts (brake caliper, handlebar clamp) something else again for the brake pads, reservoir/bleed port and reach adjust and of course the open ended wrench for the hoses. There is no alternative for the hose mount at the brake master end (unless you go for the banjo fitting) but other than that they narrowed it down to the T25 tool. So at least you can work on their brakes with a T25 exclusively. That said, I don't ride with their modern brakes. I ride with a mix of 2006/2007 Louise brakes on one bike and 2008 Louise on the other. Doesn't bother me at all, because I already need so many other tools for that same bike. I consider a tiny cheap T25 tool or bit less of an issue than some proprietary bearing extractor or a crank or bottom bracket tool that's bound to be extinct by the time I upgrade.

But yeah, should I ever get a centerlock hub, I'd be fine with that too. I think Shimano kind of went against the grain back when they almost simultaneously introduced centerlock and oversized centerlock (for Shimano Saint hubs). That was too much at once. Then Manitou came with onepointfive. People weren't used to changing standards back then. By now we can almost be certain that standards will change every few years. My guess is that within the next few years we'll go to metric chain pitch (12.5mm or even 10mm chain pitch) to get more teeth on a smaller sprocket, because 10t and 9t are considered too few for a durable cassette. And even though with the introduction of the dropper seatpost the number of seattube diameters has dramatically reduced, the small current diameters have been chosen with rigid seattubes in mind. Fox will be the first to introduce their 36 and 40mm "technology" in their Transfer seatpost and with their huge OEM influence, the bike manufacturers will be quick to upsize their seattubes. To save weight on XC bikes with limited seat drop, their seattubes will taper towards the bottom. Like step-cast.

There you have it. We almost wrapped this thing up, did I just open a whole new can of worms for you all to feast upon Smile .
  • + 24
 I don't get all the GX hate. If it properly adjusted it just works, maybe not buttery smooth but it shifts when I want it to and has held up just fine with now issues for me.
  • + 14
 Yeah I don't get it either. I have GX on my current bike and I honestly notice zero difference compared to my previous Eagle X01 and Sram X1 (11 speed) drivetrains I had before. Which were more expensive. Performance is identical, and works great. Only thing I had to make sure to do was set the B tension using that measuring device thingy and I haven't had to adjust a thing since.
  • + 1
 @gbeaks33: Exactly!
  • + 4
 For me even NX has been perfectly reliable on two different bikes. Consistent shifting, and no adjustment needed after the first couple of rides when everything has settled in.
  • + 13
 Yeah, GX eagle works. It's just nowhere near as smooth and seamless as an XT 11-speed. If you spend years on something that's better, stepping back to something not as good is really noticeable.
  • + 4
 @samimerilohi: NX has been fine for me (outside of a bad cassette that was warrantied very quickly). I was honestly a little nervous about it based on a lot of the hate for it and GX you see. Is the NX cassette heavy? Yup. Do I notice it? I can't say I do. Speaking with 4 months in on this bike I wouldn't have a problem going NX again when it's time to replace a worn out drivetrain.
  • - 12
flag thenotoriousmic (May 30, 2019 at 11:02) (Below Threshold)
 @Explodo: come off it. Gx is way better than xt.
  • + 8
 @rkillianjr46: I don't think the folks bashing NX actually have NX on their bikes or they have dentist builds. I personally have NX on both my fat bike and my wifes Fuel Ex. That stuff just works, I haven't had any issues. I see no reason to upgrade when the bike is just going to get blasted by salt on the way to the trails in the winter anyways.
  • + 14
 I personally don't hate GX. I just hate that it's on bikes that cost $5000 or more. I also don't like that NX is on bikes costing $3000 or more.

The GX and NX needs to go down one price bracket. Where they belong.
  • + 0
 @Almazing: what are the reasons you say GX "doesn't belong" on a $5000 bike?
  • + 3
 @biker245: Remember the days when you could get a bike with an 11S GX for about $3000-$3500 or so? That's why. Remember the 11S X1 which was found on bikes costing $4000-$5000? The X1 was the best value groupset SRAM ever had and it was built better and lasted longer than the 11S and 12S GX. And no, the 12S GX isn't built the same as the 11S X1.

SRAM keeps make lesser and lesser groupsets like the SX which in turn, would bring up the NX and GX up another price bracket in complete builds. Of course, it's not just SRAM's fault. Bike companies are just as much to blame.
  • + 2
 @thenotoriousmic: In what way do you feel that GX is better than XT?
  • - 3
 @Explodo: shifts faster, isn’t made from cheese and most importantly quality shifters you can easily reach. Just overall a way nicer experience and if you’ve only got half a crank to change gear setting up for something. Sram really comes into its own.
  • + 8
 @thenotoriousmic: I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree because my XT vs GX experience sounds like the exact opposite of yours.
  • + 7
 I've been a Shimano guy forever, then tried the GX recently and really like it. Smooth shifting and feels Shimano-ish. I think the GX clutch works better than the XT clutch and it has the derailler lock which makes it easy to take off your wheel. I'm a fan now.
  • + 1
 @Explodo: I agree. I've been on SRAM drivetrains since I started mtbing 12+ years ago mostly because their stuff does just straight up work and they were the first to bring out 1x components and I'm running GX at the moment. I demoed bikes with Shimano XTR 12spd and XT 11spd a couple of months ago...damn I'm sold! That hyperglide shifting under power blew me away. Yes, I agree with everyone above who say SRAM works. 100%. Smooth when new/clean but clunky the moment dirt touches it and a bit slow compared to Shimano which was smooth and quick to engage. Also my GX cassette is showing more wear than I've seen from previous SRAM cassettes at comparable mileage.
  • + 2
 @Almazing: +1 one on the X1 vs GX durability comparo. My GX started skipping in the middle of the cassette range like 3 months in from new. X1 11spd cassette, while not as smooth as Shimano's never skipped the 3 years I ran that sucker.
  • + 4
 @biker245: because it's a sub $500 groupset for the bike manufacturer?
  • + 1
 I have smashed my gx on countless rock, hell its even missing a chunk of plastic and I hardly know how to adjust limit screws but two years, two chain and a inner cable replaced its still shifting fine. Couldn’t ask for anything more
  • + 1
 @almazing totally agree. A properly tuned GX Eagle works and works well. I have it on my trail bike and have been really happy with it. The shift lever is cheap, but it’s only like $40. Don’t like it, get the XO for a relatively cheap upgrade. My XC bike has Shimano XT 1x11 and it also works well, better lever feel than the GX, but shift quality has been the same for me.
The thing that always annoys me with the Shimano is the self-shifting when back pedaling. Been a problem ever since they added a clutch. Not generally a big issue on a smoother trail, but if you are trying to do some trials type moves to get over some tech it’s damn annoying. And my kid who is just 9, backpedals a lot just because he’s a kid and those shifts get annoying. Hopefully, they fixed this issue.
I’ll be psyched to try this new XT, but I’m not racing out to buy it, especially since I’d have to buy a new wheel at the moment. I’m just happy Shimano has finally stepped up to a good gear range in a 1x at a good price point. 1x has allowed for some good frame and suspension design changes. Keep the competition alive. We all are the better for it.
  • + 1
 The other thing I will say, was GX 1x11 did feel a little cheaper. It got crisped up with the move to 12speed. I wouldn’t doubt a lot of the GX haters have only been on 11speed.
  • + 1
 @whambat: My GX eagle dropped a chain in the front at low speed on a flat because it was a little muddy out this weekend. I'm still unimpressed by it.
  • + 1
 @Explodo: I don’t have muddy conditions to ride in, but I haven’t dropped a chain in the year I rode with it. Maybe it’s just my high desert conditions. If I ride here in the mud, the whole bike stops working within moments and my trails are effed, all turns to clay.
  • + 16
 I was really hoping the new XT and SLX would follow suit with the 11 speed option alongside 12 speed that XTR offers, would be nice to give us the option of dropping a cog with the 10-45t range, cassettes are too heavy, unsprung and we don't all need 50+tooth cogs.
  • + 2
 The 11 speed XTR was never actually released, citing 'lack of interest'. It fell by the wayside in the same press release that ditched the Sylence hubs, from what I remember.
  • + 1
 7 speed dh cassette???
  • + 13
 I don't like that Shimano makes a couple cogs in the cassette out of aluminum, and that they're all riveted to the steel cogs. Signed, a guy with a bunch of 11speed XT cassettes in his garage with a worn out aluminum cog and 10 perfectly healthy steel cogs. They should at least mount the aluminum cogs on a separate carrier to you can swap them out without junking the entire cassette (i think e13 does that already). Or be like SRAM and build the whole thing out of steel, and just take the weight hit.
  • + 6
 Yes agree. Have had this problem as well.
  • + 5
 I had this problem as well, might you consider running smaller front chainring and an SLX 11-42 t cassette to make better use of the steel rings (only the 42t is aluminum)
  • + 4
 @woofer2609: I'm going to just try and get stronger and stay out of the 42t... dreaming
  • + 1
 Can just use a SRAM cassette. Though the biggest cog on everything above gx is aluminum...but is replaceable.
  • + 12
 I wonder how this release will affect pricing on complete bikes...

I consider the XT a step above the GX builds and the SLX is about equivalent to the GX, tier wise.

But GX specced bikes have had their prices steadily rising over the past couple of years since there's no middle ground between the GX and XO1 build kits.

Now the 12S XT and SLX are out, I hope to see Shimano builds offer decent pricing, or at least fill in the gaps between GX and XO1/XX1/XTR builds.

Paying over $4000-$5000 on a GX specced bike is very hard to swallow. But if it were an XT 12S build kit at the price, I'd have an easier time accepting it.
  • + 8
 I hope to see it OEM on a lot of new bikes, the NX has to go, it's crap.
  • + 1
 As I understand it, prices are rising because of the tariffs on a lot of the parts on a bike.
  • + 8
 If SLX takes over NX and even some GX OEM spec I'll be a very happy guy. XT will be a solid option, cost-wise, for $5000-7000 bikes.

Do I trust Shimano to deliver this product on time? Not even remotely. Do I trust Shimano to ensure pricing isn't made a joke of online? No. Microspline? Probably better than the XD driver so that's fine.The brakes all look great. And both XT and SLX look good.

Don't mess it up Shimano.
  • + 10
 I’d like to see them do the “blind taste test”, see if anyone could actually tell if they were riding XTR or XT????
  • + 30
 I have performed many blind taste tests. It's hard to see inside the garbage can and honestly who can be bothered to remove the contents before you begin consumption? Coffee grounds.
  • + 7
 I can tell you that right now. No, except maybe the shifter. MAYBE.
  • + 3
 @agreed except I’d say you can definitely tell the difference between the shifters. The XTR shifter is the only real upgrade performance wise between the two groupsets. I have an XTR shifter on one bike and XT on the other. The difference is NOT subtle. I’ve had XT and XTR derailleurs and cranks and the only difference is how much they cost and weigh.
  • + 3
 I had GX Eagle on my previous bike and went for X01, because 'dream build' or something. Honestly, i don't see any difference. I only went for X01 because of the X01 cassette, if i was given GX Eagle cassette with the X01 derailleur and shifter, i'd taken the GX group hands down. I'd take a GX group with an X01 cassette if possible.
  • + 1
 @Primoz: Dude, there is quite a difference in the shifters and how they feel. Other than that, in the operation not so much not counting the weight. BUT, in my experience the GX stuff tends to not last as long. I've seen GX rear mechs wear out their pivots in a matter of 2000kms becoming so loose they would not shift properly no metter the adjustment (and yes, the hanger was checked with an alignemnt tool, cables and housing replaced etc. and still wouldn't shift correctly across the whole range). We had multiple GX shifters develop "skipping teeth" and shifting to higher gears on their own...
  • + 1
 I can definitely tell the difference in X01 and GX. X01 is clickier and GX is smoother more like Shimano. I actually like the way GX shifts better.
  • + 7
 I'd like them to be good too, but XT now competes with GX from a weight perspective. You have to go to XTR if you want to compete with X01 and then you have to buy a new rear hub. Going to be a hard transition on existing builds, but fine if your starting from scratch i guess and want to pay for XTR or upgrade your crank and cassette after you've paid for XT. For the record I'm currently on XTR 11-speed, but will probably upgrade to Eagle at some point because its easier as I already us the XD driver and XX1 Cassette with my XTR parts.
  • + 56
 But unlike GX it will work
  • + 24
 11 Speed Shimano is still best bang for buck with weight, price and good range on the 11-46t cassette.
  • + 5
 GX is pretty Stellar! You can just use an Eagle Cassette with the new 12sp XTR. It all works fine. Guys have been testing that out and you can see videos of it. Just like everyone running a Sunrace cassette instead of Shimanos crappy 46t one.
  • - 4
flag sunringlerider (May 30, 2019 at 8:29) (Below Threshold)
 @stella10:
“But unlike GX it won’t be available”
Fixed that for you.
  • + 14
 Anyone take the time to do simple math? What's the real difference between XT and GX and X01 in terms of weight? From my perspective, I'd still take the slight weight penalty to ride with Shimano. I know it's a trope, but I'm tinkering with my friend's SRAM crap more than I ever have to touch any of my Shimano mechs.
  • + 20
 XT is listed above at $160. Jenson USA lists a GX cassette at $215. Large pricing difference. An X01 Cassette is $400. Current hub would be your issue. However, starting from scratch, XT over GX every time in my book.
  • - 5
flag sunringlerider (May 30, 2019 at 8:43) (Below Threshold)
 @bman33:
I do hope you realize XO1 is not aimed to be at the gx and xt level?
  • - 1
 THANKS FOR GOING ON THE RECORD @Caddz
  • + 1
 @bman33: That is good competitive pricing on shimanos part. I would argue that you can find great deals on Sram drivetrain parts all the time. Even on link bike there are a lot of new takes offs always being sold. Still it’s good to see some competition for Sram.
  • + 2
 All the arguments against the Microspline standard are simply the same as when the XD driver came out. It will be adopted, more people will upgrade, and the world will continue to rotate. As long as the product continues to perform and it's delivered at some point, then people will still choose the product.
  • + 3
 @stella10: What is wrong with GX? I haven't had any problems with GX.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: From (numerous) prior comments, you seem to absolutely hate the XT (11speed) cassette. Any particular reason? The weight is a touch under the GX cassette, and the jumps between gears are nearly the same (within 1 tooth difference, with both having a large last step to 46 or 50 respectively), and it's less than half the price.
  • + 1
 @Climbtech: I like the XT drive train a lit but that cassette is trash. They just took their 11-42 and took the cheap route, swapping out the 42t for a 46t just to catch up, with zero r&d; rather than do what everyone else did and make proper steps. You end up with a big 37t to 46t jump at the end. It shifts crappy for no good reason. 11-42 is real nice tho. A sram or sunrace is what most people do to fix it.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: Myself and several buddies out here in Colorado and Utah have had zero issues with the 46t 11-spd cassette. Pretty good usage out here as well with all the elevation changes.
  • + 1
 @bman33: there is a good reason no one else is putting big steps in a cassette like that, shimano has not done it again either. Its functional but not great. For the same money you can get a proper cassette from a 3rd party anyways. Everyone has their own expectations for what's good tho. Cheers
  • + 7
 Is that extra gear worth all this weight? Using lower cost 12spd cassettes is adding some serious weight on the rear wheel of your bike. Upwards of 1/2 to 3/4 of a pound over a high-end 11 speed that isn't much more expensive. I know its hard to find a new bike with an 11 speed build, but it makes me wonder.
  • + 4
 The xt cassette is about the same weight as the 46t 11 speed casette
  • + 2
 An NX 12 spd cassette was OEM on my bike and I am hoping to ditch it to an XD driver and GX 12 spd cassette. It shifts fine but is a full 120 grams heavier than a GX cassette. I can't afford XO cassettes.
  • + 2
 @clink83: True, but that XT 11spd is notoriously heavy too, I mentioned a high-end 11spd like XX1 or X01 which is usually on sale, so not terribly priced and its 200g lighter than the XT and over 250g lighter than the SLX. Definitely more $, but man that is a ton of rotating weight. I guess to each their own. I'd rather spend the extra $100 or so when we're talking about $3k - $9k bikes generally.
  • + 1
 The XT 11-spd worked flawlessly for me and several friends under hard riding out here Colorado and Utah. And that is the larger one at that. Ugly? To some maybe. I'm not sure why all the hate
  • + 9
 "either a 10-51 or a 10-51 tooth range"...so can I get it in any color I want so long as it's black too? ;-)
  • + 7
 Just built up a new 2018 Rocky Altitude, I put 10spd drivetrain on...
  • + 5
 That's fixed - it should have said '10-45 tooth range.'
  • + 5
 @amack5: And it still works abso-f*cking-lutely fine. Go ride it
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer: Price and weight for the 10-45?
  • + 3
 @amack5: yep I have 10spd 11-46 (sunrace cassette, M8000 mech and 10spd slx shifter), using a 34t oval ring, never feel the need for more gears and shifting is relatively flawless, crisp and instant. My main upset with these new groupsets is the need for microspline, rendering my old wheels uselss
  • + 10
 Bye Eagle.
  • + 5
 Did they fix the brakes? It sounds like from reading between the lines in the XTR reviews that they didn’t. Will any review in the next 6-12 months tell us that?

This will put some pressure on SRAM so at very least they won’t be able to jack up their prices.

Is any of this stuff made in Japan or is it all China... or Laos. If Shimano can’t get their flagship factory to make quality stuff I shudder to think what “lowest cost” factories can do.
  • + 4
 Someone messed up the math in that table.

SLX Drivetrain adds up to $350.95 individually, but table states $409.93
SLX Complete adds up to $793.90 individually, but the table states $819.89

XT Drivetrain adds up to $599.94, but table states $622.93
XT Complete adds up to $1187.89, but table states $1,148.89

The SLX Drivetrain is the real winner here at $350 USD with crankset with only a 101g total penalty to the XT versions. If a local Canadian Bike Shop actually stocks and sells a complete SLX Drivetrain for ~$470 CAD (at today's exchange rate), then there's little reason to go hunting for these parts overseas.


Those brakes look quite a bit over-priced vs. the rest of the grouppo:
SLX: $410 USD for brakes + rotors
XT: $520 USD for brakes + rotors
  • + 4
 So best value looks like SLX cassette, brakes, crank set, derailleur; XT shifter, rotors; XTR chain. Also I'm wondering what the difference is between the hubs. In the past it was a Ti free hub for XTR; with microspline they're all going to be lightweight.
  • + 2
 XT derailleur has better jockey wheels, but you can always buy them after market, when your SLX wears out (might be cheaper to buy the wheels separately).

the freehubs:

XTR M9111 237g, all alloy, 7 degree engagement
XT M8110, 305g, all alloy, 7 degree engagement
SLX M7110, 350g, steel axle, otherwise alloy

the front hubs all use aluminium axles and seem to be identical between XT and SLX. XTR is like 10g lighter.
  • + 4
 There's a subtle difference between XTR and XT/SLX, not mentioned in this article. According to the Shimano booth at Sea Otter, XTR bearings and races have a hardened surface coating, making them slightly more efficient. Also, the bearings in XTR hubs are laser-measured, sorted and size-matched for each individual bearing.
Tech note: if you're overhauling an XTR hub, DO NOT let your left and right side bearings intermingle. Keep the drive side bearings on the drive side and non-drive side on the non-drive side.
That's the kind of precision and attention to detail that separates XTR and Shimano from the rest.
  • + 1
 There might be differences in the pulleys, pulley bearings, and I remember XT and up used to have bearings instead of bushings in the shifter, correct me if I am wrong.
  • + 6
 This is legit! However I have huge problem with Shimano 11sp, it is just works all year round without any issue, so I cannot upgrade to the 12
  • + 5
 Aside from the 11 gram weight savings and slightly different (more refined!?!?!?) shape. What benefit would I get from buying the XT crank over the SLX (other than than a couple of alphabet thingys)?
  • + 7
 Prestige.
  • + 5
 A lighter wallet.
  • + 1
 In the past, I believe XT has been made from 7000-series aluminum, and SLX out of 6000-series. (I could be wrong on that, as it's not published anywhere I can find right now.)

The result is that, they're the same weight/stiffness because they use the same amount of metal, but the XTs were harder to break. It would be nice if the difference was only finish, cause I'd take SLX everytime, for the price.
  • + 3
 Mike K, can you tell us if the freehub mechanisms in the XT and SLX rear hubs are ratchet based like the new XTR? Or standard pawl design? The 7 degree engagement sounds coincidentally similar to the 7.6 degree noted for the XTR, so I'm hoping the ratchet trickled down.

After destroying 8 Shimano freehubs over 2 years in the M770 era, I gave up entirely on Shimano hubs. Need to know if I should consider, perhaps against my better judgment, another try w/ Shimano.
  • + 4
 Yes, they use two aluminum 100 tooth driver plates, the same design that's used for XTR.
  • + 1
 100 tooth would be 3.6 degree engagement.
  • + 1
 well that is interesting...big change for Shimano...I wonder how they felt under power? If you can handled the cup & cone bearings slx/xt hubs can be had very cheaply.
  • + 2
 @JohanG: Correct, but these hubs are ring-driven first, then ratchet rotates to engage.
  • + 1
 Does this make them silent too?
  • + 1
 @vinay: No, not silent, but not loud, especially quiet at higher speeds. The ratchet plates make slight contact while freewheeling.
  • + 3
 So this is great and all, but when will we see more wheels with microspine freehubs because without that non of this matters.

I have a Hope Pro4 rear hub and would love to upgrade my X1/GX mixed 11spd drivetrain to 2020 SLX but i'm locked out until Hope makes a Pro4 microspline freehub.

Frown
  • + 3
 I'd bet we'll see it from hope within a month or two.
  • + 0
 @ratedgg13: we won't. Hope are being blocked from getting a licence by shimano
  • + 1
 @endorium: Yeah yeah, it took hope a few months to get an agreement with SRAM on the XD driver too. It'll happen, it'll just take a few months.
  • + 3
 "If you have a bike with 12x148mm spacing and aren't sure which option to go with, the 55mm chainline option is the safest bet – that way there shouldn't be any frame clearance issues, and the 178mm Q-factor is only a couple millimeters different than previous generation XT cranks."

This makes no sense to me. A 55 chainline with Boost 148 spacing would give you a terrible chainline.
  • + 7
 LOL I was wondering the same thing, I've had 3 boost frames so far and every single one of them had better chain line with non-boost cranks. This whole thing has gotten silly.
  • + 2
 2x junk
  • + 1
 And 178mm Q-factor is pretty wide. SRAM's base is 168mm. Still options out there for 156. Not everyone notices it but if you do, an extra cm is disqualifying.
  • + 0
 @CarlMega: This to me if where all the frame manufacturers went downhill.

When 148 came out it was touted as the widest you could go without making the q factor wider. That was ingored and they made the chain stays wider because of stupid mid-fat/plus tire craze

Now you have 157 on non downhill bikes that need to be pedaled. Great if your knees don't bother you. I had one years ago, loved the frame, knees hate it.

Give me a boost frame that can run a reasonable q factor crank.
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: Yup, most Boost frames can handle a narrower chainline crank or ring up to 32t. Sometimes that comes at the expense of chainguide fit though.

Same is true for Superboost, use a boost crank or ring if you can. If you want 34t or bigger, then you might have to go wider. In that case the 55mm option would be preferable to the Superboost standard at 56mm.
  • + 6
 I really want these to be good. Some actual competition in the drivetrain arena would be great.
  • + 6
 I hope there'll be a triple chainset.
#Triple4Lyf
  • + 2
 re: "All of the cassettes in the lineup require a Shimano-specific Micro Spline freehub body. At the moment, Shimano, DT Swiss, and Industry Nine are the only companies producing compatible freehub bodies. "

Guess thats fine for new builds/bikes, but don't think I'm switching for my bikes/wheels. Not an option.
  • + 2
 You'll be able to get a replacement freehub eventually.
  • + 2
 Is the shifter and derailleur compatible with an XO1 Eagle cassette and chain (unofficially, of course)?

Is there a 6 bolt version of the Freeza rotors?

When Eagle came out I was skeptical about performance and price and durability. I am not skeptical any more. XO and GX Eagle work really well. The chains, cassettes, and chainrings last far longer than any drivetrain stuff I've used in over 30 years of mountain biking.
  • + 1
 Some interwebzing reveals a few reports that the XTR and therefore presumably XT and SLX shifter and mech work well with an Eagle cassette and chain. One guy reports using a GX shifter with XTR mech and everything else SRAM with good results. It makes sense. Shimano would be crazy not to make their stuff compatible with Eagle cassettes.
  • + 1
 You lose a lot of the benefit of the new Shimano 12-speed groupo by running the Sram Cassette. Part of what makes the shifting quicker both up and down are the all-new ramps in the cassette, mated to the special Shimano chain. That's what makes this group special and superior to SRAM (supposedly). There's reports out there that using the new 12-spd XTR Cassette with any aftermarket chain "works"...but the shifting speed up and down are noticably less crisp.

Shimano states that with XTR, you need to run the XTR ring up front. This is technically correct. This is ONLY because the master link of the new 12-speed chain is too narrow for a normal ring. If you use a SRAM/KMC/ETC. master link on the Shimano XTR 12-speed chain, it will work on any normal narrow-wide chainring.

However, if you're just looking for a 12-speed setup, without the shifting benefits...then frankenstein the system...but why bother...just wait till the stuff is available.
  • + 1
 @neons97: so would using a new XT cassette and chain with Sram Eagle give you all the benefits of hyperglide
  • + 3
 It would be nice to see a return to the duopoly on oem component spec for new bikes (and with it, hopefully, some price competition).

Sram has had a near monopoly for the past few years.
  • + 4
 Is “SLX definitely rides in jeans.” like someone skiing in jeans? Cause I don't know if I would want to make that comparison.
  • + 2
 Do the brakes finally have some modulation on the early part of the lever pull?? I've dealt with the inconsistent bite point a lot on my m8000's but I can at least kind of fix it by bleeding it often...however the grabby bite point is useless in slower tech, don't like it at all. Adjustable bite point seems silly to not have with these things being so dang expensive.
  • + 6
 That's a you problem
  • + 5
 Same problems reported with the new xtr. Don’t expect much to have changed except the paint.
  • - 1
 Have you tried resin pads? I found switching to resin made the feel more progressive and not as much "on/off".
  • + 8
 @freeridejerk888: every set of M8000s I've had and my friends have had suffered from the "moving bite point". Also it is mentioned in some reviews of those brakes, it's a pretty well known issue and a deal breaker for me.
  • + 1
 @gmoss: I haven't. Which do you recommend? Metal pads seem to usually have a bit less bite than organic pads for me (on other brakes I've tried). You seen it differently with these?
  • - 1
 @thenotoriousmic: come on, the bite point thing cant still be a problem right? Or are you just talking about the grabby brake?
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: Don't get into it with him, remember what happened last time.

Objectively, the bite point problem was fixed on the later m8000's, so I would bet that fix carries over to the new line. I have two sets of the 00-series (one m8000 and one m7000) and I haven't experienced the issue, so i'm guessing I got the revised design. Would have been nice of Shimano to denote that in the model number.
  • + 8
 I had wandering bite point on my rear m8000 brake for a few months, but never had an issue on my front brake. I since replaced the front brake with the m8020 4 piston brake and out of the box it has better modulation, increased power, and so far no inconsistent bite problems. So that upgrade may be worth it to you.

However, I found that a decent overnight bleed got rid of the inconsistent bite point for a few months. Set up your lever bleed, strap your lever down to the bar with the cup and fluid set up. And leave it overnight. Any deep-seated bubbles will work their way out. Not saying it'll help for everyone, but it got rid of the problem 100% for me for the last few months. It'll probably come back, but I'll try that bleed again and hope that is the solution.
  • - 2
 @Svinyard: I’m saying I have absolutely no idea what my brakes are doing from one corner to the next and I have to pre pump the lever to have some idea where the bite point is. 3rd pair. I stopped wasting my time send them off warranty because they come back exactly the same and take ages to arrive. I bet nothing changes with the new groupset. Same crap different paint.
  • + 2
 @freeridejerk888: this is a shimano problem, brakes should not have inconsistent bite
  • - 1
 @gbeaks33: it’s the rattling pads and the ceramic pistons. They let air in and after a few rides the air gets in the lever and your brake works like crap. Unless they do something about it your still going to see the same old problems like we are doing on the new xtr.
  • - 5
flag senorbanana (May 30, 2019 at 9:32) (Below Threshold)
 @thenotoriousmic: I had saints and I was wondering why my bike was so rattly, it was the damn stupid "ice tech" shit pads rattling in the caliper
  • - 3
 @senorbanana: it’s because they leave an expansion gap so the pads don’t buckle when they heat up but what happens is the pads rock forward and backwards when you brake over roots or braking bumps pulling and pushing on the porous ceramic pistons letting air in that eventually works it way to the lever.
  • - 3
 @thenotoriousmic: It all boils down to Shimano not anodizing the inner bore of the master cylinder before machining it. The piston wears down the softer aluminum, that's why you'll find dark colored oil when bleeding them. There's nothing you can do to prevent it. On top of that, the ServoWave puts more stress off the center line of the piston, which leads to it putting more pressure onto the MC's inner bore.
  • + 12
 @southoftheborder: Why would you anodize something and then machine it?
  • + 7
 I like the instant power/grabbiness in slow tech. Ride mostly the Shore and Squamish so no shortage of that terrain here.
  • + 1
 @gbeaks33: did sort of the same thing . I tap the brake lines with the bleed cup attached. Then I wait ( for about five minutes) then I tap the brake lines again . I do this about five times. Every time I sqeeze the lever more bubles.
Did a ride next day no random bite point .
  • - 2
 @gramboh: Yeah but when its wet and a bit steep, a quick bite on a bike or 4wheel rock crawler still induces more traction loss than a control slow slower bite. I mean, plenty of guys do just fine with them and it isn't throwing me off the bike or anything...but its not ideal imo. Its night and day when I'm back on my bike with Codes. More power and more control. I think Shimano should have tried to mimic that in someway. Its kind of the best of both worlds. Maybe the resin pads provide this tho, I haven't tried those.
  • + 7
 @Svinyard: The last thing we need is Shimano trying to mimic SRAM. Hell no. We're very fortunate to have Shimano holding down the "cheap and reliable" option to begin with. Can't imagine a bike world with only two drivetrain companies competing fiercely to be the first to market with expensive stuff that breaks all the time.
  • + 2
 @TheRaven: I know, I agree with you. I was just talking specifically about the brakes "performance traits" not everything else or their implementation. Hope/SRAM Codes/Dominions/some Maguras, they've done a decent job at building in Power and some decent Modulation, no compromise brakes...I just meant that Shimano should have shot for that kind of ideal. Its exceptional to have both especially for the cost of brakes these days. My XT's haven't exactly been reliable but it seems like lots of people have with their previous stuff. I really like the idea of the XT/XTR/SLX shifting under load tho and would ride that in a heartbeat. Cheaper XT cassette will be nice moving forward too!
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: Don't forget you can also go with a Sunrace cassette. I have been using their cassettes pretty much exclusively over the past three years and they are fantastic. More options than Shimano at the same (And sometimes cheaper) price. Sunrace has an 11-50 12-speed that fits the standard Shimano hub, and a 10-50 12-speed that fits XD. So that leaves no excuse.

I'm thinking about trading up my 11-speed XTR for a mixed 12-speed group - XTR shifter and chain, XT derailleur and crank, and sunrace cassette.
  • + 2
 @southoftheborder: That's why I went to Magura this time. I got tired of the Shimano's eating themselves.
  • + 5
 @Svinyard: I am running the Shimano resin pads for XT single pot brakes with Icetech rotors.

downvoting for offering my experience tied to a question. LOL Some of you young bucks are a bit broody it seems. All I can tell you is what I have experienced. I weigh 215 lbs, brake hard for some corners, and prefer to not lock up the brakes if possible. My combo does this better than the sintered pads did with the same rotors.

Try your own combo and find what works for you.
  • + 1
 @gmoss: Thanks man! This is good news.
  • + 2
 I like both Sram and Shimano. I prefer either of their lower end components. That stuff just lasts longer and is less finicky, and takes a beating better, plus is way cheaper. The heavier weight in grams is so irrelevant when actually riding IMO.
  • + 2
 I had a hellofatime getting my XO1 setup working smooth and consistent, and I still don't think it has quite the refinement of my old XT 11 speed group. Shimano stuff is always just so solid, so I'm looking forward to trying it. Probably next season though.
  • + 4
 "There's also a double chainring option for the three people out there that are still rocking a front derailleur."

heh heh
  • + 2
 use a granny ring on my old XT crank but no mech. Switch it over on steep mountain climbs.
  • + 1
 Anyone with 3rd party hub's such as Hope etc, may want to read this. It seems like Shimano XT/SLX 12 Speed isn't coming to you anytime soon Frown

www.facebook.com/hopetech/photos/a.179027565472417/3440814985960309/?type=3&theater
  • + 1
 My most interesting observation here, traditionally Shimano has been much better than other brands at stratifying their product offering across the different levels, with this, and the recently released XTR, I'm seeing much less of that.
  • + 1
 I've been running GX for a while,but didn't like the fickleness of Eagle so I opted to stay with 11sp. The only wide range XD cassette at the time was e13. So about e13 cassettes ... they suck.

I was looking at getting the all steel cassette from Garbaruk, but with a $300 + price tag and a time delay I was hesitant, but now the entire XT package with DT micros[pine driver is only a couple hundred dollars more, so yeah, I'm in.

Just waiting for the XT package to be available.
  • + 1
 I like this new stuff, and I like the price; but I can’t bring myself to trust Shimano drivetrains anymore. I’ve literally never had a reliable one. Poor luck? Maybe, but I’ve had 6 bikes that came with Shimano; and they all had issues that even shop mechanics couldn’t get working.

2.5yrs on with SRAM X1 mech/shifter, and a GX 11sp cassette and chain...completely flawless performance and no reliability issues whatsoever. I’ve not even needed to adjust cable tension in that time.

So it will take some doing to turn me back to Shimano.
  • + 1
 Apparently the Shimano XTR (assuming XT/SLX) rear derailleur works really well with Eagle stuff. This guy messed around and only swapped the SRAM GX rd for the XTR rd and it worked great. I think that's where Shimano's big improvements have come so it might be nice to replace the SRAM RD with Shimano's RD as it gets worn out. Much smaller cost to get that loaded shifting capability.

www.kustombikes.co.uk/article/6-shimano-xtr-m9100-rear-derailleur-is-compatible-with-sram-eagle-12-speed
  • + 1
 I wonder if the DT Swiss freehub will work in my Bontrager hub? Bontrager (used to) and a few other companies license DT's hubs and internals. I have older Bontrager hubs on a blown up wheel and I could lace it into a new hoop for microspline compatibility. I tend to run Shimano hubs these days since they're typically inexpensive and fairly robust. Plus at nearly 100kg I need 32 spokes minimum, which for some reason bike manufacturers feel is excessive.

Actually, to be fair, I'm so happy with my 11sp XT, I'll likely keep replacing cassettes and chains until Shimano no longer supports it.
  • + 1
 It is quite hit and miss which Star Ratchet hubs work with DT Swiss's MicroSpline freehub body, I'd contact DT Swiss before buying freehub body. Shimano has some great and affordable MicroSpline hub and wheel options.
  • + 3
 Questions: does the SLX shifter still only let you go 1 at a time down gears vs XT letting you go 2 at a time? How much is an SLX microspline hub?
  • + 4
 SLX does not have Multi or Instant-Release, XT has both. Rear SLX hub with MicroSpline is $85-95 MSRP depending on configuration.
  • + 1
 For all the complaints about HG versus XD versus Microspline and the industry conspiracy against standards . . .
. . . at least a single tool still works to install/remove all of them!!!

Well, except Campy, but that's another demographic.
  • + 4
 question is will Shimano actually get these products out on bikes, unlike the mess that is XTR right now
  • + 1
 I think yes because they gave up on scylence and never had a problem making this crank design.
  • + 1
 Just found time to read most of the article but didn't see if the derailleur cage is carbon. Doesn't appear to be. Advantage of carbon cage, knowing that the cage is not bent after a mishap. It's either perfectly strait or broken in two (or more) pieces. The uncertainty is the worst thing.
  • + 1
 Advantage of aluminum is you can sometimes bend it back.
  • + 1
 Regarding the chainlines on the cranks . . .

The math is pretty obvious for 52mm going to 55mm when you go from 142mm to 148mm. So why does the even larger jump from 148 to 157 only bump the chainline by 1.5mm to 156.5mm??
  • + 2
 No DI2. Only means one thing, wireless XTR in 2020. Entrepreneurial opportunity, manufacture plugs to close off all those needless holes in the frame. Available in ever color of the pallet.
  • + 1
 Just a heads up, in the US you can get a 10-45 tooth cassette but not the appropriate rear derailleur. After installing a long cage 7100 on an 8100 cassette I was like wow, no way can this be right. After calling Shimano they confirmed that you need a medium cage for the ideal match up to 10-45. They also told me such derailleur won’t be available in the US for 2 more weeks...why make one product available when the other necessary piece isn’t? Their website also blatantly says the sgs Cage works with 10-45, which they admitted to me needs to be changed. Talk about a shit way to release products
  • + 1
 I'm hella excited for this, But Shimano needs to allow more people to build micro spline hubs if this is to be widely adopted. I'm not buying a DT hub and re-lacing my wheel just to run this drivetrain.
  • + 3
 @mikekazimer
Do the XT and SLX cranksets still hold together with pinch bolts?
  • + 8
 Yes, they use the same two pinch bolt design that Shimano's been using for years.
  • + 7
 @mikekazimer: Thank goodness. I prefer the two pinch bolt design over the huge 8 or 10mm allen bolt on the drive or non drive crank. Makes maintenance easier. I always feel like I'm going to destroy a tool or the crank itself removing or torquing down SRAM(and similar) crank designs.
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer: wow, finally a good reason to replace my 2009 slx cranks. I guess new chainrings will work with 11spd chain?
  • + 1
 @Almazing: agreed, maintenance is great with those cranks. i don't think they can do carbon with this design though.
  • + 2
 @Grnnilddcv: Nope. Shimano doesn't do carbon. Which is fine. Their alloy cranks are some of the best out there.
  • + 2
 @Grnnilddcv: like carbon crankset is a good idea in the first place
  • + 1
 I'd like for someone to tryout a 12sp Shimano derailleur on a full X01 Eagle drive train. That seems to be where most of the tech/improvements are at. I've seen plenty of shimano xt mixed with SRAM shifter etc.
  • + 2
 Damn... Knowing GX was spec'd on every $6-7k bike in the shop was the last thing stopping me from buying a new whip. Sorry kids. Maybe you can go to college next year.
  • + 1
 Been running XO Eagle for 3 months, generally unimpressed by poor, delayed shifting and the general flimsiness of the derallieur. Definitely going to get some XT shifty bits.
  • + 1
 Funny, i find XT flimsy and incapable of staying aligned after minor scuffs and scrapes. what a world!
  • + 1
 Will the new Rotors not bend super easily? I have to replace my xt rotors so often due to warpage. I also keep getting them warped too. Kinda a huge pain in the ass. When they work tho boy do work
  • + 3
 just buy regular shimano rotors without ice tech garbage. cheaper anyway and way less prone to warp when overheated.
  • + 1
 @Grnnilddcv: ive tired them but they dont work nearly as well
  • + 0
 I run a Shimano 11 speed drivetrain on my Pivot 429 and SRAM GX 12 speed on my Cannondale Flash. Between the two, both do what is required, that is shift smoothly, and never leave me stranded miles from home. The one accolade I will pass to Shimano is the shifting is noticeably crisper than the GX group.
  • + 2
 So does this mean the 11 speed XT and XTR stuff is being phased out and will soon no longer be available? If so, I guess it's time to stock up on 11 speed parts...
  • + 1
 Just PM me, I have lots of it. All obsolete LOL.
  • + 4
 @preston67: I wouldn't call it obsolete yet. For XC in my area, 11sp XTR with XX1 10-42 cassette has perfect range, is about as light a setup as you can get and is affordable (as far as top end drivetrains go), I have no need for big heavy 12sp cassettes on my XC bike. Would be a shame to see the 11 speed stuff disappear.
  • + 4
 Weight of the M812 wheels?
  • + 4
 The more Sram parts I take off my bike, the more I like my bike.
  • + 2
 LoL I too have found this to be true!

That's why frame only costs so much nowadays. They (SRAM) need to get rid of their stock somehow. Wink
  • + 1
 Curious about cross-compatibility with SRAM 12sp. On 11sp they’re perfectly compatible, I’m running m8000 shifter with xx1 derailleur (and on the other bike xx1 shifter with xt derailleur, haha)
  • + 1
 A guy tested it and wrote a short blog on it. Said the xtr RD on a full eagle setup worked perfect.
  • + 1
 I just completed my build with a complete 11spd XT group (with a 10-42 GX cassette) and 4 pot brakes. My only consolation was that I wouldn’t have wanted to wait bikeless for this to come out anyway.
  • + 3
 That SLX is looking good from an OEM perspective. Might give NX and GX a run for its money if the price is comparable....
  • + 1
 and you think sram won't go cheaper on lower groups? only reason for sram pricing was no competition. same goes for enforcing complete eagle groupsets. this might change a little with slx/xt-12.
  • + 1
 @Grnnilddcv: I hope they do... competition should drive down prices and thats a win for everyone.
  • + 1
 @JudyYellow: It should, but marketers will find a way to keep upping the prices. The free market isn't really free. It's a lie.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXqgKGaZ3vM "They Live" is/was such a great film.
  • + 4
 so no more shadow tech on the dérailleurs?
  • + 1
 No mention of it, but it definitely looks to have down away with the B link and to not be compatible with the direct mount style hangers.
  • + 1
 This is disappointing it was one of the great things about recent shimano rear mechs.
  • + 1
 I think its a great revue of the high end parts but working stiffs like me need the SLX revue. Am I missing something here?
Also the upgrade to 12 speed means I need a new wheel set........ew....
  • + 3
 SLX cranks are only 11 grams heavier but half the price of XT? THAT is great ????
  • + 2
 I assume it has to do with the chainring. Shimano are absolute lunatics when it comes to chainring prices.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: hey they have to make money on something in that group right?
  • + 4
 dangit my current drivetrain is perfectly fine, and now I want a new one.
  • + 2
 Let's hope shimano can deliver and no customer looking for budget bike shall suffer from nx eagle nx in the next year
  • + 1
 Happy to continue to stick with wide range 10 speed on my hardtail if Hyperglide+ trickles down to that level. Same with 11 speed on my trail bike.
  • + 3
 Pretty sure that's Bryn Atkinson doing Bryn Atkinson things...
  • + 3
 It sure is. Good eye.
  • + 1
 also pissed Shimano won't let the german mail orders ship here any more. they wanna make their low-end shit in thailand but won't let me order from Germany? fk off with that.
  • + 2
 Yessss Kazis. Not having to travel to ride dogshit doubletrack trails (Garda) for product launches ftw.
  • + 2
 Man, those cassette prices are awesome. Damn $300+ SRAM cassettes got me looking Shimano-ways for sure.
  • + 1
 first time i have rode with sram, just got a c-90 with the 1x12 xo1. Pretty happy with it, i have always had xtr xt comps on other bikes. So does x01= xt and xx1=xtr?
  • + 2
 So still no contact point adjuster that actually works, eh? I'll stick with SRAM then...
  • + 1
 You can't adjust contact point on the master cylinder. The design does not imply this. The only thing you can adjust is lever free stroke, on any brand brake.
  • + 1
 Shimano are refusing certain companies licences to make microspline free hubs. Hope being one. Stupid decision by Shimano. Had this confirmed by hope themselves Frown
  • + 1
 Will Shimano Microspline freehub bodies be retro-compatible with Shimano and other branded hubs that support replaceable free hubs?
  • + 2
 "An XTR chin the gets highest end finish" ~ I'm kinda scared here... what is an XTR chin and how does one finish it?
  • + 2
 "Body blow, body blow, upper cut......KNOCK HIM OUT!"
  • + 1
 Outside medium sweep range. Up, Up, Forward, Down, A+B
  • + 2
 still waiting patiently on those M9100 chainrings to round out the XTR group that was supposedly released a year ago.
  • + 0
 Any feedback on the clutches on the Shimano 12x stuff? I had to adjust my shimano xtr 11x clutch so tight that shifting was really difficult. Been on SRAM for the past 3 yrs because of that.
  • + 2
 Excellent news! 12 speed drivetrains at non-XTR prices that don't fall to bits!
  • - 1
 OMG, Shimano has a 12 speed drivetrain! I can't believe we have 12 speed already in 2016! - oh wait, my bad, it's 3 years later and Shimano completely missed the party. I am happy they have released this, now AXS GX will come out faster.
  • + 1
 How will an XT cassette work with GX Eagle? Looking at some new wheels (I9 hubs) and it would be nice to use the cheaper shimano cassettes that probably shift better.
  • + 3
 Coming to a bike shop near you, Fall 2022.
  • + 1
 Just from a comparison standpoint, both options are a good amount heavier than a GX groupset, but bother lighter than an NX groupset.
  • + 2
 12 speed??? Better late than never i suppose!
  • + 2
 how has no one mentioned the weight of those cassettes?
  • + 1
 Just waiting for the trickle down of these to drive the price of xtr di2 11 spd down... way down
  • + 1
 How long before it's available online cheaper than what a dealer can get it for?
  • + 2
 White Industries also has a Shimano 12 Speed compatible freehub. FYI.
  • + 1
 the xt 4 pot brakes i bought last september... are they now old generation or are they the same as these released now?
  • + 2
 Older 4 pot xt's are basically old xt lever paired with zee caliper but renamed.. I wonder which ones have more power. And no they're not the same - different pads, different caliper, different lever..
  • + 2
 Hey, HOPE, where’s my micro spline driver for my Pro 4’s?
  • + 1
 Shimano are blocking hope from getting a licence to make a one Frown
  • + 2
 Shimano should really make micro spline open source, I imagine most hub makers would have an option by now ready for people to move to 12spd slx and xt. looks like they want to clip the ticket with licensing or force people into using their hubs, or possibly give oems a reason to spec shimano wheelsets. shooting themselves in the dick IMO
  • + 2
 @zyoungson: Totally agree, I have 4 rear wheels with Hope Hubs, because they are bombproof in the UK. If I want to go 12 Speed, the easiest option for me would be to jump to SRAM, which I don't particularly want to do, as I prefer Shimano components, but if they are going to be dick's about it, i'm sure the shareholders of SRAM won't mind ;-) Brand loyalty only goes so far.
  • + 2
 @plainsrider: Have you considered a sunrace cassette? have been on one for a few months now after running sram cassettes and personally rate them. about 1/3 the price depending where you buy and works with regular shimano hub too
  • + 1
 1. Love the cranksets 2. Love the overall pricing 3. I hope you fixed the brake levers 4. Cassettes weigh a tooon!
  • + 5
 3/5 overall lacklustre comment would not read again
  • + 2
 How short is that short cage?
  • + 1
 This is a great first-look piece. I've come back to it a few times now--all the info is in there, laid out logically.
  • + 1
 Does SLX brakes still have the stupid free stroke screw with the two holes?
  • + 0
 Are there people who use it?
  • + 1
 Is it weird that I think the latest two generations of SLX cranks look better than the XT?
  • + 3
 Yes, but I'm not complaining!
  • + 1
 The micro spline thing is annoying but for me I can't get past the ergonomics and feel of the shifter.
  • + 1
 Shimano ..any day ...any time ! Best products ever to come out of Japan! Who needs sram??
  • + 0
 Ride what you like, if you are a Shimano fanboy/girl, that's fine, but 2 years late to the 12 speed party doesn't justify this kind of hype.
  • + 1
 So if I want to run one of these cranks on a non-boost bike I am out of luck right?
  • + 2
 No, there are options available that will fit non-Boost bikes.
  • + 2
 White Industries has a compatible FH body
  • + 2
 Still using 10 speed Shimano SLX since 2014
  • + 2
 This seems rather good. Pricing and look of the SLX is spot on.
  • + 1
 Hail Satan 12 speed has arrived (at an accessible price point) to devour your 11 speed sinning souls
  • + 2
 With cables...5 years back it would have been nice.
  • + 1
 Just need free hubs! A joke they are blocking people like hope from releasing a freehub!!
  • + 1
 DT and i9 have them...
  • + 3
 Any manufacturer can obtain a license and produce the freehubs. Here's an article from earlier this month about Micro Spline freehub availability:

off.road.cc/content/buying/complete-guide-who-makes-micro-spline-wheels-hubs-m9100-xtr
  • + 1
 @kwapik: not correct. Shimano have blocked hope from getting a licence. Had this confirmed from hope
  • + 2
 @endorium: I don't if that's true or not, but I'll bet you - Hope will have a Micro Spline freehub option sometime in the future.
  • + 1
 @kwapik: hopefully, that information came from hope themselves on their Facebook site. I guess it's down to money Shimano want and of they want people buying hope hubs instead of their own.
  • + 1
 I wonder if I swap out my capilpers and put on the new SLX four pot will give me more power.
  • + 2
 Mavic and Newmen make Micro Spline freehub bodies.
  • + 1
 As to White Industries, and Onyx did have something in the works also, to allow DT Swiss freehubs to be used on their hubs. Not sure when this will go to production.
  • + 1
 Add on - their Vesper hubs will be compatible.
  • + 2
 I'm still on a 1x10 speed so.... im down for pizza or chips and salsa...
  • + 1
 No more 2nd tier $5g bike OEM builds with GX can we have XT for 2nd tier again
  • + 1
 SRAM's GX train is nice man. If you just get the setup done appropriately (good wrenching) its done and works like a charm. Why the hate for GX? I'd ride the new XT over it if I could just for the load shifting but that doesn't mean GX sucks.
  • + 1
 Just when I bought a bunch of M7000 SLX components. I thought there was no way we would see new SLX until next year. Darn
  • + 1
 Same here. M7000 SLX brake literally landed today. Haven’t even opened the box yet.

Had loads of XT M8000 stuff a few weeks ago too. At least it is all a moot point as I don’t have suitable hubs.
  • + 2
 @lewiscraik: Not really, you can just use a different 12sp cassette and keep your hubs. SRAM Eagle Cassettes (I think there is a Sunrace one too) will work fine with XT/XTR/SLX 12sp. When you update wheels or whatever, then you can update the cassette
  • + 1
 So if you have a DT Swiss Hub can you simply change the XD Driver to the microspline without having to buy a whole new hub?
  • + 3
 Yes, that's correct.
  • + 3
 95$ for the new body
  • + 2
 Thanks @mikekazimer: Sweet stuff. I just bought an RM Instinct BC Edition A50 and I can tell you when my SRAM drivetrain wears out what I'll be buying since I have a DT Swiss hub on the RF rear wheel. I'm a total Shimano fanboy as I've found there stuff to be rock solid!
  • + 1
 I was just wondering when is xt coming out. Slx is definitely a nice surprise!
  • + 1
 I’d like to purchase the XTR chin, available yet? /s
  • + 1
 when will all this be available?
  • + 1
 Good things come to those who wait ... Never been more true !!!
  • - 1
 Does anyone know if a 105 long-cage derailleur will shift with an XT 11-speed 10-42 cassette? Need moar gears for gravel grindin'
  • + 1
 Apparently the new GRX (clutched Ultegra and 105) stuff will work on a 42T cog, despite the recommendation to limit them to 36T.
  • + 0
 Hubs? Especially 157x12? Other then that - just 7 years too late. Good job.
  • + 1
 Yes, 157X12 will be offered as an individual hub, not in the complete wheel.
  • + 1
 Came here to say this... But all the good comments are taken.
  • + 1
 And here I am just upgrading to 11 speed Shimano...
  • + 1
 On the 6th day god made the XT, and then rest.
  • + 1
 Will the 172mm Q factor single crank come in 180mm length?
  • + 1
 holy crap, what year is it?
  • + 1
 Checking for deals on old XT stuff for the spares bin, sweet!
  • + 1
 Four piston SLX lets GOOOOOOO
  • + 1
 Bellingham pics always a nice touch.
  • + 1
 Is it safe to assume the XT hub will also have Scylence internals?
  • + 3
 Ah, found the info. So it's getting the revised Scylence hub and dropping the Scylence branding. Any comments on the sound of the revised hub? Or lack thereof.
  • + 4
 @onlybirdman, it's not silent, but it was pretty quiet - maybe a touch quieter than a DT Swiss, although I don't have the hub on hand to compare.
  • + 5
 No, Scylence has been canceled for the time being, for XTR too. Almost the exact same internal design as Scylence, just not silent. At speed though, it might as well be, I can only hear the ratchet at slow speeds.
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer: Thanks! Would you say it is quieter than the Project 321's P321 system? I'm guessing it could not be any quieter than the Onyx's sprag clutch.
  • + 1
 .....AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!!! Take my money now.
  • + 1
 4 piston SLX looks pretty sweet!
  • + 0
 The big question is, can a four piston slx or xt caliper work on an older model lever?
  • + 1
 Can't see why it wouldn't. I looked into setting up a m8020 4 piston caliper with an m8000 lever. You can do it, but you need the same hose and banjo configuration that come with Saint brakes. So you might have to do that. It was an extra expense and it was easier/cheaper to just buy an m8020 brake and lever and just bolt it on and be riding 5 minutes later. Also found it was hard to get just a caliper here in Canada.
  • + 1
 @gbeaks33: m8000 uses banjo aswell doesn't it? Why would you need to swap hoses?
  • + 1
 @ondrejaugustin: it uses a banjo, yes, but not the same one as m8000. There's also a different bolt that attaches it so you can't just use the existing brake lines, bolt, and banjo from an m8000 brake and put a four piston caliper on there. I'm not 100% about that, haven't tried it myself.
  • + 1
 @ondrejaugustin: I guess you could use the same hose into the different banjo connector. I was looking at buying the Saint banjo thing and it came with housing so I just assumed I'd replace that too. But I guess you don't have to.
  • + 0
 Well fudge my buns, i missed the part about 2x and a front derailleur options. How quaint!
  • + 1
 Riding a fully loaded touring bike over the central Andes is quaint?
  • + 0
 @Lugers: I imagine the engineer who does mtn front derailleurs for Shimano just comes in everyday and is on edge constantly about getting the chop.
  • + 1
 Finally direct mount shimano cranks!
  • + 1
 M950s were a direct mount pattern in 1996.
  • + 1
 Maybe some price control so shops can bother with it?
  • + 1
 MAP protected in North America, European onliners are blocked from shipping to NA.
  • + 1
 How do the 4 piston XT/SLX calipers compare in power to the saint and XTR?
  • + 2
 They're probably amazing...until the weird modulation problems start to show up.
Honestly, running every level of Shimano brake possible over 15 years, I can't notice a lick of difference in stopping power between the different levels given the same pads and rotors.
Anybody else?
  • + 1
 @woofer2609: not me. I just buy the SLX 7000 ones and replace the retarded free stroke screw.
  • + 1
 Next time Shimano deore 11 Speed?
  • + 1
 That trail is REAL fun.
  • + 1
 Shimano get new game
  • + 0
 2014 me is really excited about this.
  • + 1
 12 speed is lame
  • + 1
 Less gers plez
  • + 1
 *delete
  • + 1
 Brilliant. Looks great.
  • + 1
 RIP sram
  • + 1
 Take my money
  • + 1
 Take all my money!!!
  • - 1
 Still loving my 1x10 36t Saint on my 2019 Nomad. Don't no stinking 12 speed, (said it in husky manly voice).
  • + 1
 I like SLX. EoM.
  • - 1
 And what about QR hubs ? Will there be any for XT/SLX ?
  • - 1
 i allways prefered shimano over sram.
  • - 1
 Do these also drop to a higher gear when backpedaling on the lowest gear?
  • + 6
 So you didn't read the article.
  • - 2
 "The XT and SLX cassettes are available with either a 10-51 or a 10-51 tooth range" - typo!
  • - 3
 Available 2022
  • + 15
 I'm giving Shimano the benefit of the doubt on this one - June 14th is only two weeks away, so we'll see. As of last week most of the parts were already in their N. American warehouse.
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer: I'm keeping an eye on the news just in case there are some misc fires, reactor meltdowns or Godzilla outbreaks.
  • - 3
 @mikekazimer: XTR 12 speed was announced over a year ago and you still can't get the complete group. No benefit of the doubt earned.
  • - 5
flag GatoGordo (May 30, 2019 at 8:23) (Below Threshold)
 Did Shimano pay you for this article. Because for a guy that’s supposed to be in the industry. Your answer sounds and reads very scripted. “Benefit of the doubt” C’Mon Man!@mikekazimer:
  • + 12
 @GatoGordo, how is suggesting that we wait two weeks to see if this stuff is actually available a scripted answer? Shimano were very upfront about the issues they had getting XTR to market, but they seem to be on track to deliver these products on time.

Like I wrote, we'll see. And if there are any issues or delays we'll report them, just like we did with XTR.
  • + 3
 @davidccoleman: but it wasn’t supposed to start shipping until a few months after release, and then a factory caught of fire and they had productions issues.

Two weeks means everything is already in production and is shipping to warehouses. Unless warehouses start exploding I think they can predict availability two weeks out.
  • - 3
 Now jumping the chain when you backpedal in 12 gears instead of just 11!
  • + 4
 None of my 11 speed Shimano setups jump while back pedaling. Mix of XTR and XT. Canfield Riot/Banshee Spitfire/Chromag Stylus. If your jumping or dropping chain, you have set-up issues, more likely than not.
  • - 2
 New standards, more expensive, and still doesn't really compete with SRAM.
  • + 0
 Amen!!!
  • + 2
 I mean, I ride a bunch of SRAM stuff but I'd take the new XTR shifting capability over my Eagle. Eagle is great but if we are splitting hairs, I'd like that extra bit of load-shifting when I screw up Smile . With a GX Eagle cassette (close in cost with sale coupon and abit lighter) working with XTR you get around the silly hub compatibility non-sense.

Sounds like there are still some compromises in regards to their brakes tho.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: Funny, I ride with Shimano shifting only because I'm used to it.
I'm sure the XTR shifting is nice, but still don't think Shimano is threatening SRAMs dominance in oem or aftermarket sales. Its starting to feel like Shimano is becoming more of a niche manufacturer than the mainstream powerhouse they always were.
  • + 3
 Sram shifters are junk tier
  • + 1
 @JohanG: Yup. Ever since Gripsh1t days.
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: i love the grip shift. only trading it out for the di2 xt.
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