Update: What's Going On With Shimano's New XTR Group?

Jan 31, 2019
by Mike Kazimer  
XTR M9100

Even though Shimano announced the details of their new XTR gruppo eight months ago, it still hasn't officially hit the market. Yes, some of the components are available from European distributors, but as far as purchasing all of the parts needed for a drivetrain, including cranks and hubs, well, that's not going to be possible until March. You may have even seen a few "reviews" pop up here and there, but the parts in those reviews aren't the same as what's going to be available to the end consumer – in fact, they may never hit the market at all.

That's because there have been some relatively significant changes to the lineup, including the cancellation of the Scylence hub (for now), and the 11-speed cassette option. The M9100 cranks are also being revised, with the slightly heavier FC-MT900 direct mount crank being released in the meantime.

Nick Murdick, Shimano's MTB product manager, provided more details about the current state of the new XTR.




When will XTR actually be available? Have the parts that consumers are buying in Europe been officially released, or are those grey market / early sample items?


North American customers can expect to find new XTR complete groups at retailers around the first of March. In our market, we’ve chosen to hold off on shipping XTR components because the crank set hasn’t been available. Since several of the performance gains with the new XTR group were achieved through a system engineering approach, it’s not so easy to sub in another crank. Specifically, the inner plates on the chain being extended out beyond the roller are responsible for the improved driving efficiency and chain retention of the crank. That chain plate also plays a key role in the smooth Hyperglide+ shifting across the cassette even under extreme load while accelerating.

Other distributors and sales offices around the globe manage their own distribution, which may be why you’ve been able to find some parts through the European retailers you mentioned. As expected though, we’ve heard that the riders who have bought those components have struggled to find an acceptable crank solution. The new XTR chain might not fit on some chain rings at all. On others, it might vibrate while pedaling or wear out extremely quickly. If they switch to a different chain, the Hyperglide+ shifting goes away and at that point it really just isn’t an XTR group anymore. Of course, it’s up to every rider to decide for themselves what chain and crank they use, and we aren’t trying to get in the way of someone choosing another product that they like better, but at the same time, we don’t want to force people into that situation because we don’t have a crank to sell them.


What caused the delay?


The production process for the crank still needs refinement. It’s a good design, but mastering the mass production of it has proven difficult so we need more time to work on it. As a remedy, we’ve added a new crank to the line-up that falls in-between the performance and quality of the previous generation XTR and the new M9100 XTR group. It uses our tried and true hollow forged crank arms but it will use the direct mount chain ring that goes with the new group. The crank and chain ring will come in a stealth black color and subtle Shimano branding. It’s simply called FC-MT900, so you’ll hear us refer to it as “The Black Crank”. While not as light as the new XTR crank, at 587 grams it is lighter than the previous generation and also gets the improved driving efficiency and chain retention that comes with the new chain ring design. As soon as that crank lands in our US distribution center, we’ll begin shipping all of the new XTR components.


2018 Shimano XTR Launch in Crested Butte Colorado USA
The Scylence hub lived up to its name out on the trail during the XTR press launch, but unfortunately the quiet coasting technology isn't going to be released, at least not this time around.


Rumor has it that the Scylence hub has been cancelled. Is that correct? If so, what's it being replaced with?


We have indeed had to go back to the drawing board on the design of Scylence - this one isn’t just a production issue. We still have faith that the concept can work and we’ll continue developing the technology, so if it’s possible to make it happen one day we definitely will. You’ve mentioned several times that the silent coasting was the stand out feature when you rode it, but there are actually several other good things going for the new XTR hub that remain. It uses these 100 tooth aluminum driver plates engaged by a helical spline on the back of the freehub body. That gives us a tight 7 degree free play angle with a very efficient and secure transmission of power from the cassette to the hub shell. With just about everything but the bearings being made of aluminum, we can make a very light hub too. The XTR hub actually won’t change much from the original design, we just need to keep the driver plates in contact with each other. The model number changes to FH-M9111 and it should be available right around the beginning of March like the rest of the components. Of course, there are other hub options in the market so we won’t hold the rest of the group if these hubs show up even a few days later.


Are any other components being modified from the first iteration?


There are no other modifications to the products that we announced, but there are two specs that have been cancelled. We recognized that our production capacity was spread a little too thin to keep up with demand so the wide flange hub (FH-M9125) and the 11 speed version of the cassette (CS-M9110) have been cancelled. At this time, we need all of the hubs and cassettes we produce to be the most popular specs. I think we’re going to miss the 11 speed cassette in North America – we were surprised by the positive feedback that it got and expected it to slowly gain popularity. There are really two benefits that might lead someone to choose a 10-45 11 speed cassette – dropping grams and gaining the ability to use a short cage rear derailleur. Luckily, the short cage derailleur remains in the line-up and it can be used with the 10-45 12 speed cassette. So riders who are looking for a derailleur that’s less likely to grab rocks and bounce around at high speeds still have a good option.


XTR test in Laguna California Dec 2017


Are the delays having any effect on athletes getting their bikes prepped for the upcoming season?


Things are on track and we expect to have racers on XTR with the black crank at the EWS in New Zealand this March.


How about bike manufacturers - are there bikes sitting in warehouses still waiting for XTR to show up?


A few bike brands have been shipping XTR bikes since the fall, but yes, others have been waiting for cranks and or hubs. Pivot and Cannondale had already sourced their own custom crank solutions since they have frames that use a chain line that we don’t yet offer. Some other brands may now be investigating other options but it’s hard to get something custom made any quicker. Several brands will use the black crank and start getting bikes to riders around the same time that we’ll start shipping components.


Riding XTR
Ideally, once a product is announced there's little, if any, delay before it's available for purchase.


Will the delays we’ve seen with the XTR group be improved with future launches?


It does seem like we’ve recently had more delays with new products actually coming to market, and that’s certainly been frustrating. While it’s not a good excuse, these have mostly been related to a new technology or a new production technique that hasn’t existed before. Since XTR was a ground up redesign, there were several of those new technologies that came with it. I’m proud that so many of them went so smoothly, but it wasn’t enough. That’s why big steps have been taken within our organization to put an end to these kinds of delays. The cancellation of two specs and streamlining production is a perfect example and there are many more steps being taken behind the scenes. I can feel a big change within our organization with a renewed focus on delivering exactly what we promise on time.


606 Comments

  • + 263
 XTRa lame
  • + 141
 Jumping on top comment.

Bike shop dude here. We have been told repeatedly that XTR is a 2020 groupset and will not be available in March. Getting kinda sick of Shimano saying one thing in releases and an entirely different thing otherwise. The f*ck is going on Shimano?
  • + 238
 Props to shimano for delaying putting out a product they found out it had some issues. SRAM would have released it without any doubt.... consumers can do the testing.
  • + 58
 They don't want us purchasing XTR stuff from Europe but, on the other hand they don't have them available to purchase here. This is what happens when a company starts hiring a bunch of hipsters to run their marketing and distribution departments thinking that they will be as successful as Facebook or Apple. The company was running better when the Japanese had complete control.
  • + 240
 Just gotta say, there's bigger things to worry about in life. We are all a bit spoiled-- complaining the latest XTR isn't going to be offered on time is really fractional. Just say'n.... keep pedal'n, continue to have an awesome time with your bro's... I love tech and latest stuff, but don't let that stuff override the big picture-- good times and big smiles.
  • + 20
 @endurocat: interesting view. Buddy of mine runs Golden Bike Shop our here in Colorado. They are a Yeti dealer, but cannot get Yeti bikes with the new XTR yet. However, one of their customers was just in Europe and purchased a Yeti with the new XTR minus the cranks. He has a Raceface crank with an aftermarket ring (forgot the brand). Funny since Yeti is literally 10 minutes from the bike shop but the customer crossed an ocean to get it.
  • + 2
 @bman33: thats a nice shop there too!
  • + 33
 @endurocat: Shimano USA doesn't have control over much, and never really has. Those guys have a limited staff, and a tough job to do. I don't know who you're casting aspersions on with that comment, but everyone I've met at SAC has been a professional.

And if I remember correctly, Nick Murdick did all of the original videos for Shimano's S Tec training. Calling him a hipster seems a little out of place, considering the work he's put in.
  • + 7
 Personally, I'm over Shimano. I'll take SRAM's fast to market, and simplicity over Shimano's slow to change and impossible to get approach any day.
  • + 5
 @bman33: You are correct. The new Specialized S works Epic Evo. Currently available in Europe. Has the 9100 grupo with Race Face cranks and a different ring.
The North American division has had a lot of problems and it's no secret that the building in Irvine has become a revolving door for new employees . Going after the product rather than human error As you can see by the article.
  • + 6
 @RedRedRe: this! i feel like thats what happened with guides and the reverb.
  • + 15
 @brappjuice: fast to market has lead to some issues though
  • + 114
 @bman33: not being able to get your yeti with xtr sounds like the biggest first world problem there ever was
  • + 1
 Within a year from the release no “mtb enthusiast” will care. If anything It must leave a bad taste in the mouths of companies ordering stuff from them. Shimano messed up with brakes big time, yet fanbois of their brakes are relentlessly popping up all over this site. People don’t care. They just don’t.
  • + 13
 @me2menow: indeed it is. I don't own a Yeti. However, just making a point about Shimano Euro vs. Shiman NA. Bottom line, any of us bitching and/or celebrating anything here on Pinkbike or riding our several thousand $$ bikes is pretty first world.
  • + 7
 @sherbet: Also bike shop dude here, I ordered the whole group the first day it was on the b2b in June. Rep called on Monday to make the crank swap adjustment and filled me in on the hub situation. First batch shipping end of Feb. If it doesn't, I'll cancel my order. Been riding borrowed parts for too long.
  • + 15
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm still surprised we have to cope with brake malfunction from several manufacturers as if it was a "fact of life". If anyone in the moto or auto industry would insinuate something similar, the avalanche of sanctions and sueballs would surely move our planet a few degrees off its axis.

Shimano has been having reliability issues with their brakes for almost 10 years, and the fanbois would just invoke the company's no questions asked replacement policy. Well, Shimano knows damn well their brakes are unreliable, so they would surely give you a new set to plaque you down before facing a class action lawsuit.

And the same applies to SRAM and the Level levers with inappropriate seals that swell or fail to push fluid to the callipers, but at least you are able to find spare parts for them.
  • + 2
 @me2menow: Such a ridiculously true statement.
  • + 9
 @southoftheborder: since when are shimano brakes unreliable? they have a reputation for being the more reliable brakes on the market. or at least thats what everyone i talk to says.
  • - 11
flag thenotoriousmic (Jan 31, 2019 at 13:10) (Below Threshold)
 @bike2850: no they’re really not reliable it’s a myth. I’ve had major issues with three different pairs of shimano brakes over the last year. They’re useless and not every good when they’re not broken.
  • - 7
flag MrDiamondDave (Jan 31, 2019 at 13:11) (Below Threshold)
 @bike2850: Shimano brakes need to be bled a lot more than a DOT system. If not bled, the red fluid gets contaminated with dirt and water in the system, this makes the brakes performance diminish.
  • + 13
 @MrDiamondDave: I have to do leaver bleeds on mine all the time. I have no idea where the airs coming from but there’s always a bit.
  • - 5
flag sherbet Plus (Jan 31, 2019 at 13:30) (Below Threshold)
 @bstwc: I'd cancel. Our estimated backorder isn't even currently listed; says to contact inside rep. I'd imagine etap 12 is coming to MTB this sea otter, and I'm certain Sram genuinely wants to sell it. Give them your money.
  • + 5
 I'm surprised there's even a press release since one year from announcement to availability is pretty much par for the course with Shimano. Anyone who's shocked must be new here.
  • + 22
 @MrDiamondDave:
The Shimano fluid doesn't mix with water. I never had any problems with Shimano brakes but had a lot of issues with brakes from other brands.
  • + 34
 @thenotoriousmic: I also wor in a bike shop but I've seen more problems on sram/avid, formula, hayes(nine model, stroker) than on shimano. Also I never had any problems with mine. I've tried a lot of different brake brands, but shimano works best for me. Just my oppinion though...
  • + 15
 @southoftheborder: Yeah nah. I've been using Shimano brakes since 2013. No problems with them whatsoever ever! And no I'm not a Shimano 'fanboi' but cheers anyway.
  • + 16
 @brappjuice: My budget doesn't reach the XTR platform. The Shimano XT line is rock solid and value priced. I'm pretty pleased with the upgrade over my SRAM mid-level components.
  • + 4
 @oldmanjoe: Great point. Sram X0 Eagle (I ride it after 20+ years on Shimano) and XX1 Eagle are excellent. That said, XT smokes anything Sram has below X0 for quality, weight and bang for the buck. I am eager to try the XTR stuff once it's out and my Eagle cassette is worn out.
  • - 3
 @bman33: Maybe it's just me, but XT is not a better groupset than GX in my experience. I get there's some opinions on this sort of thing, but saying XT smokes GX is a little crazy.
  • + 18
 @sherbet: I beg to differ. I'd even take SLX over GX. NX is barely Deore to me. What are my criteria? Finish quality, actuation? Both GX and NX feel like they have as much plastic on the inside as on the outside. X01 rear mech... please... and SRAM used to be better. Current xx1 barely corresponds to 10sp X0 and current X01 is not in the same ballpark as 10sp X9 used to be, and nothing comes close to 9sp X0 or 10sp XX in terms of finish quality. SRAM has juicy cassettes, this is where it ends. Shimano cassettes suck. Even Sunrace makes better ones.
  • + 16
 @thenotoriousmic: for me i haven't had a problem with shimano where as everyone i know minus one person has had to warranty there sram brakes. ask anyone who works in a bike shop if they have had more sram or shimano warranty issues. hint answer is sram
  • - 24
flag sherbet Plus (Jan 31, 2019 at 14:50) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: It's unbecoming to beg.
  • + 1
 @sherbet: I mean, 11speed Shimano cassettes suck. GX cassette looks decent. But this is where it ends.
Quality-wise I take XT rear mech over any sram rear mech anytime. The only thing I can blame Shimano for is that they failed to poliferate direct mount hangers and this dumb thin link is it’s genuine achilles heel. My X9type 2 outlived 3 hangers.
  • + 3
 @sherbet: yes, is just you. C'mon, that comment coming from a 'bike shop guy'?
  • + 1
 @ismasan: I rode NX all of 2018 just to see if it was any good. Not a single hiccup all year long. Our customers on GX have been absolutely stoked, and we've sold a ton of the GX complete groupo kits.

So yes, coming from a shop GX is a very solid drivetrain with very minimal amounts of issues or ergonomic flaws. It's just bloody good.
  • + 14
 @sherbet: I don't buy it. Anyone who can hold a GX derailleur in one hand and an XT derailleur in the other hand and say with a straight face that GX compares to XT is a very good liar. It's painfully obvious...GX is a big pile of plastic. In my riding region, XT is king.

Just take a look through this comment section for personal testimonies...it's like 100 to 1 in favor of XT, and this site is full of SRAM fanbois.
  • + 4
 I'm alright with you being unconvinced; I'm not here to convince you, I'm just here to share my experiences, and they've thus far been flawless. GX and NX are mostly forged alloy, with some steel here and there for the cages and parallel. I feel you need to be a fanboy or worse to not see the merit in Sram's entry level drivetrains. They're just solid.
  • + 22
 @southoftheborder: I very much agree with your first paragraph, but I must sya my experience with Shimano brakes has been nothing but excellent. I've had Sram Guide/Codes, Hopes, Maguras and Shimanos and have gone to Saints on all my bikes. They are the only brakes that I've had that are trouble-free and consistent, thrilled with them but of course everybody has their own experiences.
  • - 12
flag skinnyjeans (Jan 31, 2019 at 15:53) (Below Threshold)
 @thenotoriousmic: ditto here. xt suck.
  • - 6
flag n3sta (Jan 31, 2019 at 15:55) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: Idk where you get your info. Do you live where there is only one bike shop?
  • - 5
flag H3RESQ (Jan 31, 2019 at 16:48) (Below Threshold)
 Shit, I just want my Cannondale Habit 1, but they are unavailable solely thanks to Shimano offering a drivetrain for 2019 builds to companies and then not having it ready. Shimano let every level of customer down. . Crap I tell ya, crap.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven:
I happened to agreed at least with the derailleur, i had an xt set up 11 spd on my previous bike and it was bomb proof, but not butter smooth. My new bike has the GX group and the derailleur worked for about 3 month, had to upgrade to an XO1 to get the drive train back to butter smooth. There is a reason a some companies offer the GX group with the XO1derailleur on their kits; and when it comes to brakes my codes R have been amazing and reliable.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Jan 31, 2019 at 16:55) (Below Threshold)
 @bike2850: its a myth mate. Maybe back in the day but not anymore.
  • + 1
 @diggerandrider: amen mah dude +1
  • + 8
 @thenotoriousmic: what’s a myth? That they had warranty issues? Because that is a well accepted fact haha.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: Yeah you’re right, once they work things out, there should be Scylence.
  • + 14
 @johnbalz: it's your experience, but remember: the plural of anecdote isn't statistics. Go to ridemonkey or emptybeer and check the threads on failing master cylinders (they get ovalized, since Shimano doesn't anodize the MC bite after machining it) or cracked ceramic pistons that leak oil and let air in. Those are systematic failures, coming from poor design choices. If you've had good luck or if you aren't cooking your brakes on every run, I'm happy for you.

SRAM has its own share of issues (from master cylinders frozen from day 0 due to incorrect seal material selection, to stuck/misaligned calliper pistons, to whatever nightmare you could imagine and worse), but as I said before, they at least offer spare parts. If you get cracking Shimano pistons, your only way out is buying a set of replacement ones from China, machined out of aluminum. And if your master cylinder ovalizes, all you can do is buy a new complete lever.

What drives me nuts it's all those companies implying the number one safety component on our bikes is unreliable by design, and telling us to suck it up.

It's been said a MTB brake costs a fraction of a motorcycle one and we get the quality we pay for, but as I said before, we deserve better. If I was a US/Canadian/European citizen, I'd be more than happy to be part of a class action lawsuit to force the manufacturers to improve their products and quality controls.
  • + 6
 @MrDiamondDave: that's no contamination. If your fluid comes out dark and opaque, it's because the master cylinder bore is getting worn out by the piston. That's because Shimano machines it after anodizing the lever body, leaving a soft aluminum surface to be worn down by the seals and the piston body.

Then one day your lever goes down to the grip without any previous warning and you find yourself pumping it like crazy to get it working again. And you bleed and bleed the brake once and again, hoping to get all the bubbles out, but it's useless. The lever is FUBAR.
  • + 3
 @thenotoriousmic: I just answered@MrDiamondDave with a possible explanation. The other possibility is your calliper pistons being cracked. This happens to SLX brakes and above. The micro cracks start letting air in, and ultimately oil out, which leaks onto the brake pads, contaminating them.
  • + 1
 @Mocope: Yup, water and oil don't mix, but the water in there creates a "spongey" brake feel. Take your bike and hold it up right on the back wheel and pump the levers, I bet they start getting closer and closer to the bars.

@thenotoriousmic The Shimano ceramic pistons will, over time, allow dirt and water into the system. The pistons need to be cleaned thoroughly when you do a bled and pump them out some to clear all the dirt.
  • + 0
 @MrDiamondDave: some Shimano fanboi is downvoting comments like crazy. I was about to say the water creates this "spongey" feeling you refer to when it vaporizes due to pressure and temperature, creating bubbles in the system.
  • + 2
 @southoftheborder: Yeah, I love my Guide RSC Been on them since they came out and zero issues. I am a mechanic, so I what do I know. I know how to bleed the shit out of Shimano breaks Wink
  • + 11
 @MrDiamondDave: I was a mechanic for ten years and even now do all my own work. My Shimano Saints I had for 5 years lived thru endless Colorado bike park laps and 3-4 Whistler trips and my XT's about the same. Absolute zero issues. I hear the newer XT's had issues in the beginning. SRAM's mess was widely known although their brakes felt good when there were good. Folks saying one is superior to other both sound like faboys and have their head in the sand on either S's issues and/or positive points. All brakes need occasional maintenance and cleaning. My current brakes for the last 3 years on all bikes, Hope.. Big Grin
  • + 0
 @bman33: exactly my point. How comes the thing we need most when going down a mountain is a hit and miss and we are used to it?
  • + 4
 You will ALL buy it and forget about this delay ever existed. Because it's half the price than Eagle for the same weight
  • - 4
flag Crampagnolo (Jan 31, 2019 at 20:02) (Below Threshold)
 @sherbet: same
  • + 2
 @sherbet: there is absolutely no way gx is superior to xt. My friend’s gx eagle derailleur blew up on his first ride, and the only things the entire group has over xt are price, and shifter ergonomics. The whole point of gx was to lower the price as much as possible, which means utter crap in terms of quality. On the 11 speed nx cassette I’ve ripped teeth of the cogs, and I can’t imagine the gx cassette being much higher quality. Any sram drivetrain is impossible to shift under any sort of power without crunching through the gears, where my slx group is silent all the time. Everything they sell is loaded with marketing bullshit to make a quick buck, and is utter garbage in terms of quality. If I had the money to spend on any brand new full group set I’d take slx over even xx1 any day, simply because it won’t cost a fortune when a sram groupset inevitably shits itself.
  • + 7
 @sherbet: is that the one with a 630gram cassette? Ya I'll pass.
  • + 8
 @thenotoriousmic: and yet I’m on my second set of xt and they have been dead reliable and quiet. Can’t say the same for multiple sets of sram I’ve had.
  • + 1
 @TheSlayer99: your friend set their own drivetrain up didnt they? Take a sram drivetrain to a mechanic that actually knows what they are doing (read: works on bikes for a living and deals with sram drivetrains more than occasionally) and they can all be set up to be bullet proof and incredibly smoot. Most people that rag on them just dont understand how to set them up.
  • + 13
 @lyfcycles: One can or cannot setup a drive train, make is irrelevant. All feature three screws, cable clamp and a barell adjuster at the shifter, neither is more straight forward than another.
  • - 1
 @sherbet: i just realized this is the stuff that was announced last summer. wow.
theyre probably losing a lot of sales to sram right now
  • + 7
 @bman33: true... need to bleed my Shimano brakes very often but they work. My Avid/SRAM brakes just failed in the Alps on long descents when being a few years old. Hope is said to be the most reliable but I just miss braking power compared to my Saints... so I keep on bleeding my Saints
  • - 3
 @Sebov: Saint are bomb proof, but still getting too old even more on current DH circuit.
They heta up too much, are the heaviest and freestroke management is poor and inconsistent.
I'm on Sram now even if the bite is a bit less powerful but without all the downsides of Saints.

Some Direttissima are coming, I can't wait to compare.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 1, 2019 at 1:26) (Below Threshold)
 Yep my rear slx brake is slowing leaking and contaminating the pads. They’re getting sent back on Monday so no doubt they’ll just send a new set with exactly the same issues and that will be two sets of xt’s and two sets of slx I’ve had issues with no doubt.

If you want something cheap that does the job shimano is an option because in the uk it’s usualy a lot cheaper then sram but if you wanted high end components you’ve got to go with sram. They just do everything better. They only thing shimano I’ve taken any interest in is the new XTR stuff that shimano have just discovered they don’t know how to make.
  • + 9
 @sherbet: I don't like it and I never will. The only thing I like about the Gx SRAM Derailleur over XT is the knob who can lock the cage for working on the rear wheel or drivetrain itself. I had with my 180mm so called super enduro 6 f*cking rear mechs. All GX , they are have a play from the factory right out of the box what is unreal. Only the tension from the chain will make it look and feels like it is right. But the play on derailleur bolt who is holding it is totall crap . I did lost tension on the parallelogram spring to pull it back on the fast gears. Lost tension on the clutch it self who is a joke. Why? Because you can not really tension it. Clutch 3.0 is just a spring but with no actual mechanism to get it tighter. The 2.0 hacks won't work.

If condition gets worse the little wheel who guide your cable is also useless and get clogged.

I am happy when I finally have a better frame where I can use 11speed again. GX lvl was okay back then but the eagle stuff is just to fragile.
  • + 0
 @lyfcycles: no this was on a new bike straight from a bike shop. Sram just doesn’t make quality products, there is no reason for you to be snotty about it.
  • + 1
 Not a fan of Shimano brakes, and reading some opinions about how many failures have certain brakes doesn't tell me anything. In fact, seeing the king of PB bitching about them pushes me to replace my Curas (very happy so far) with a nice set of XTs.

The only thing I know for sure is that Avid brakes (or whatever the hell they call them in the next incarnation) sucked a lot, mainly cause I had the misfortune of use them and suffered their poor performance and tricky service. Though on the upside I mastered the art of bleeding, thanks Sram for that!!!!
  • - 1
 @RedRedRe: How about delaying the press release until your product is ready to ship? Ridiculous that we've been reading about XTR now for months, and it's still nowhere near ready. In the meantime, shops are sitting on 11-speed inventory they can't well without heavy discounts, and those of us who ride SRAM Eagle are...out riding our awesome bikes. At least Shimano is now clamping down on price control, but it's still easy to see why they've lost so much market share the past few years.
  • + 0
 @southoftheborder: nobody is supposed to talk about these problems. Everything you say is 100% correct. Someone from PB management will talk about how they kind of alluded to it two years ago in a generally positive review. These are brakes! Kind of important. This article is as close to calling Shimano to a reckoning as we will get.

I don’t get it. They are two generations behind on drivetrains. Their brakes have had major problems. Their two new technological innovations are failures and will never see the light of day. Why are they being protected. Bring out the knives! Again, if this was any other industry they would have been ripped long ago.
  • + 10
 @wibblywobbly: You see what you want to see. That's why you don't get it.

Shimano has a 50 year history of quality, SRAM has NEVER had a history of quality. Those of us who have been in the game for 20+ years know this. That's why when something like this happens with Shimano it's a big deal, because it's very out of character for them. With SRAM, it's par for the course.

Once again Shimano is not "behind" SRAM just because SRAM has something Shimano doesn't. The companies have two very different philosophies. Shimano is not "chasing" SRAM.
  • + 2
 @bman33: I hear ya, I have owned Hopes, Shimanos, Srams, Hayes since 1998. Each product has pros & cons to them. I love them all and work on all brands every day. Hope is my 2nd favorite. cheers!
  • + 11
 @wibblywobbly: Oh come on, people have problems both with Sram and Shimano. First levers on Guides and levels were sht and they kept making them for 2 or 3 years. And Shimano drivetrains behind, come on... you are biased as hell. Sram deserves all the credit for xx1 in 2010, a genuine revolution in drive train. And then it stopped. Unless you believe there's any value in Eagle which I personally don't
  • + 7
 @WAKIdesigns: SRAM deserves a lot of credit for continually pushing. But to say that Shimano is behind is just ignorant. Shimano is a $3B global corporation...5x the size of SRAM. IF Shimano had any interest in being first to market, they would be. The simple truth is Shimano owns the bicycle drivetrain industry. The other players are just guests. I mean, we're very fortunate to have them, considering the innovations each has brought, but lets not lose sight of the truth here.
  • + 4
 Getting down voted for calling out shimano on a post where they f*cked up the launch of their flagship group set. Hilarious.

I want shimano to be good again and that’s not going to happen if you keep making excuses for them. Time to drop the fan boy shit and get shimano to get their act together.
  • + 3
 @sherbet:I also work at a shop and I would agree with you that the GX groupo is extremely reliable. The NX on the other hand, we've had tons of issues with. We've had several brand new bikes that have come with the NX Group not have a strong enough spring in the derailleur, which made us immediately have to warranty the bikes. I have also had the opportunity to test out the NX groupo on the Giant mobile road show on the new Reign SX. Once it has worn in, the shifting was terrible. The Giant mechanic literally told me just to deal with the shitty shifting, because the groupo just doesn't last. I have been running A shimano XTR Shifter and XT Derailleur with a GX cassette. Recently just switched to the E Thirteen Cassette to try it out. My drivetrain has been working flawlessly, even after a long summer.
  • - 2
 @Serpentras: type 3 derailleurs are meant to have an adjustable clutch you just have to take of the little plastic cap with a t25 torx and you can tighten it so I really don’t get what you’re trying to say type 2.1 were the “unadjustable” ones unless you took out then pin.
  • - 1
 At this pace, maybe we will see 12 speed XT by 2022. Then, maybe I’ll consider going back to Shimano. Meanwhile, I’m happy with my GX Eagle as it shifts better than my 11speed XT did, despite a cheap shift lever feel. Shimano 2x10 was flawless for shifting, but their 11 speed was crap IMO.
  • + 10
 @Geoff-Smith: extremely reliable - what is XX1 then? Indestructible? GX is what X7 used to be. Same weak lever feedback, same materials, very similar construction of the rear mech. the only thing worth writing home about from this group is the cassette. If anyone thinks GX is on par with XT, they are delusional.
  • + 6
 @whambat: shifting quality between comparable groups is 90% down to IQ, level of wear and quality of setup.
  • - 10
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 1, 2019 at 6:50) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: GX is class definitely better than XT. NX is the old x7 GX is the x9 replacement. Both NX and X7 suck though. Doesn’t last waste of money.
  • + 6
 @sherbet: East coast US here- Got into the shop this morning to find a shipping confirmation, my XTR group will be here on the 6th.
  • - 4
flag wibblywobbly (Feb 1, 2019 at 7:39) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: at the present moment, SRAM has fixed their brakes. Shimano still hasn’t!

Ride current XT and ride current GX Eagle. Even if you think Eagle is worthless the GX just feels better.

And if SRAM stopped innovating in 2010, what has Shimano done?
  • + 13
 @wibblywobbly: GX is an SLX competitor. X1 was meant for XT and is a much better comparison. That's why GX continually gets slaughtered when compared with XT. It's not up to par because it wasn't meant to be...AND it's more expensive. Double whammy.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 1, 2019 at 7:46) (Below Threshold)
 Leave them too it mate. They’re not worth arguing with. Anyone who uses both knows one is significantly better than the other. Ignorance is bliss.
  • - 8
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 1, 2019 at 7:52) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: GX is XT’s competitor NX is SLX’s.
  • + 7
 @thenotoriousmic: how? Did you held both in your hand next each other?
  • + 10
 @thenotoriousmic:

NX = Deore
GX = SLX
X1 = XT
XO1/XX1 = XTR

SRAM may be positioning GX Eagle against XT M8100, since there doesn't appear to be plans for X1 eagle.
But XT M8100 doesn't exist yet so we'll have to see what happens. Shimano has already adjusted by positioning M9100 against XX1 and M9120 against XO1 so there are changes coming.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: pad wear my dude
  • - 7
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 1, 2019 at 8:54) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: nope it was always x0 vs xtr, x9 (gx) vs xt, slx (lx) vs NX (x7). Sram brought out xx1 later just to remind everyone that they’re operating on a higher level.
  • + 8
 @WAKIdesigns: lots of new basic hardtails come with direct mount!

11speed Shimano cassette is a beautiful cassette for the price. Your out to lunch.
  • + 6
 @satansdog: hahahahahaha you have no clue do you? Search the whole internet and then tell me a workaround for that. You can't tighten it up it is all made up by guys who actually had done it on the older clutches but never took the eagle appart. You can't even use a T25.
I actually have a Eagle here with that wannabe clutch deasembeld. There is nothing to adjust, it looks like it can be done but there is nothing you could do to increase the force.
  • + 3
 @southoftheborder: It's not like Shimano and SRAM are the only players in the game. If their products are inferior, then there's always TRP, Hope, Magura, Formula, Hayes, etc.
  • + 1
 @bman33: I use both.. xt Di2 26-36 sram xx1 10-42 in syncro shift mode 586% range. gained a little weight over xx1 eagle but lost unsprung weight on the wheel and moved it to the bb area.
  • - 2
 @NWBasser: Yes, you are absolutely right. But the ones dominating the OEM market and failing to do proper recalls for massively failing brakes are the S ones. I personally run Formulas since a long time ago.
  • + 5
 @thenotoriousmic: That was 10-speed. There was no X1 in 10-speed.

One could argue that XX1 = XTR Yumeya, since XX1 is just carbon-clad XO1. But Yumeya is very rare in North America and regular XTR competes fine with XX1 anyway.

Side note - google this subject. Turns out i'm being very generous in my rankings. Most of the industry puts X1 below XT and GX below SLX. I at least give SRAM the benefit of the doubt by going with how they position their products.
  • + 1
 Seeing as this has turned into a SRAM vs shimano argument... My last 3 bikes have been SRAM equipped. Not by choice, it's what they came with. Avid Jucies, mine weren't nearly as bad as their reputation, though both needed bleeding 1 week into ownership, straight to the bars, at the top of a scary set of switchbacks in Les Arcs. Crappy pistons seized a couple of years later. Otherwise, OK. SRAM Trail 7 were flawless, kinda needed bleeding every 18 months if I was being picky. Broke 1, replaced with a Guide. Flawless. I've got new Guide REs. So far, excellent. Old 3x SRAM drive train - fine. X9 1x10 drive train was great. Mech got wobbly after nearly 3 years having had a proper beating, outlived probably 4 hangers. Replaced with GX. Not great feel, but worked great. I'm a month into Eagle ownership. So far so good. It even back pedals in bottom gear!
  • + 11
 @mountainsofsussex: Another relevant point - SRAMs drivetrains were of much higher quality up until the 10-speed generation. Go snap a few clicks on a 9-speed XO rear shifter...just like the Shimano M970 shifter, sexiest click you'll ever feel. It's like drivetrain porn, if there is such a thing. Both SRAM and Shimano lost that magic with the 10-speed generation. The big divergence came with 11-speed though. SRAM's shifters turned into a plasticky-clunk filled mess.
  • + 2
 @thenotoriousmic: it doesn't matter what the comparisons are if sram is utter garbage. You're on the wrong side of a one sided argument, but as you said, ignorance is bliss.
  • + 2
 @mountainsofsussex: being able to back pedal in the bottom gear isn't really an achievement. It just means you have a proper chain line and the drive train itself is engineered properly.
  • + 1
 Its a raceface chainring too. Kmc chain. @bman33:
  • + 3
 @southoftheborder: Yeah, the big S's certainly dominate the OEM market. I've had both great and bad experiences with Shimano brakes and won't touch anything SRAM. I just put TRP Slates on my bike. We'll see how that works out.
  • + 2
 @Serpentras: I’ve done it on every single sram clutch mech i had all the way from the first xo/xo1 (type 2) derailleurs in 2013/14 to my current brand new xo1 type 3 that I’ve loosened (they are quite tight when new) literally 14 days ago and if you don’t hold the screw on the back side with another hex key you can’t adjust it, the gx ones could be different but I wouldn’t know never owned one or pulled one apart but for the 10-15 X01 mech that i owned evey single one could be adjusted.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: didn't say it was good quality or comparable to XT, just reliable
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 1, 2019 at 10:47) (Below Threshold)
 @TheSlayer99: you realise your saying that in the comments section on a post about how shimano f*cked up its own comeback right? Er sorry about that guys but we don’t actually know how to make the products we spent thousands promoting about a year ago. Anyway got to swap my XT’s with my guides of another bike for tomorrow because they’ve contaminated my pads again or I can’t ride tomorrow. Not a joke. That’s a set of slx and now xt brakes that I have to send back on Monday I’ll probably get them back in about two months as well. Like I said if you don’t take the blinkers off and call shimano out they won’t change their ways and you’l keep getting the same garbage from them. Keep living in your make believe world where sram doesn’t absolutely dominate and shimano is still reliable. Hahaha
  • + 5
 @thenotoriousmic: Again, there's no comeback. Shimano's still in the lead it has been since...well...forever. Again, $3B in revenue last year. Dunno how many times this has to be pointed out.

Do us all a favor and sell your Shimano parts. Please. You've made it very clear you don't like them, so get them warrantied, and sell the replacements. Hell i'll even trade you for them...pretty sure i've got a set of Guides on the shelf that wouldn't sell, you can have them.
  • - 3
 @lance-h: why would you pay the same for a heavier cassette that downshifts after less than a half of a back pedal crank revolution on it’s own, as compared to Sunrace? Shimano 11sp SLX and XT cassettes are a joke. They suck. They really suck
  • - 3
 @WAKIdesigns: So 11 speed XTR cassette with the same tooth profile are garbage too... out to lunch buds
  • - 3
 @lance-h: Well I happen to have the 9001 and 8000 cassettes... The difference happens to be there... same tooth profile 11-40 XTR that does not come in 11-42 or 11-46... Both Sunrace and SRAM does not suffer from virtually immediate chain drop when back pedalling - an issue found on many forums, coming up with first google results? - so erm, ekhem... fail?
  • + 8
 @WAKIdesigns: I haven't had any backpedal issues with my XT cassette. However, the lower gear spacing is very annoying. I'll probably go Sunrace after it wears out for this reason alone.
  • + 7
 @WAKIdesigns: Luckily I dont pedal backwards up the trail
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns: UM...gotta jump in here...the backpedal chain-drop issue is a chainline issue, not a cassette issue. It happens with SRAM, Shimano, and Sunrace drivetrains and any combination of parts therein. It all depends on the type of cassette and the frame design. I've seen it happen and not happen on just about every popular 11-speed cassette in existence.
  • - 9
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 1, 2019 at 11:57) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven Yeah your just a deluded fan boy. Shimano aren’t relevant anymore. They can’t do what sram have been able to do for years and are now doing with even their NX group set. Not just that shimano only really make brakes and gears sram make a lot more. You only need to look at shimanos laughable dropper post to see they can no longer compete with sram.

So much fun trolling shimano fan boys.
  • + 2
 @TheRaven: how come People who changed from XTR experience the same thing as I do? I’ll try to keep the details as short as I can. XTR rear mech, 142 rear hub, 440 stays, hope crankset 36t, 46mm chainline. Near instant chain drop while back pedalling on 42t on XT. Half or full revolution required on 40t XTR. Changed to SLX7000, offsetted the 34t chainring to with spacers to around 48mm chainline. No change.

Another bike. 10sp Sram x9 drivetrain. 11-42 10sp Sunrace cassette. 142 hope hub. 430 stays. 50mm chainline. Almost full revolution needed to drop the chain
Briefly mounted 11sp SLx to it with same XT cassette. Chain dropping immediately.

I am not an engineer who tested 50+ prototypes of same cassette and knows exactly what is going on in production models. That is purely anecdotal experience correlating with quite a few people.
  • + 3
 @lance-h: I do and I have a good reason for it. If you watch some videos of Jeff Kendall Weed you will know why one would like to backpedal on a climb.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: Because they have the same chainline? Hard to say. I haven't been able to find a common denominator in things like frame size, or chainstay length, or suspension type, or wheel size...etc. All I can tell you is that I have seen the drop both happen and not happen now on almost every single group from both SRAM and Shimano. It's not the cassette that's at fault. It's chainline and perhaps even other factors.

Now, having said that, it DOES appear to only happen on cassettes with 42t or more.That's clearly a chain loading angle issue - which again points to chainline.
  • + 1
 @whambat: We'll have 14 speed NX by the time we have 12 speed XT. I vastly prefer Shimano drivetrains but the simple reality is they have not adapted to the 1X world and are getting their lunch eaten. They need to dramatically cut their R&D time and get 12 speed XT and SLX to market asap if they want to remain in the game.
  • + 2
 @ACree: yeah, because nr of speeds is what matters - I stopped using this as an argument in dick comparing contests around 13yrs of age...

@TheRaven not really I just mounted up 10-42 X01 and it works better than XTR. Unless it has different chain line than Shimanos.
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: they are definitely still relevant that isn’t a fair assumption as others have mentioned 3B in revenue. Also it could be said that you sound like a sram fan boy. As for the dropper I haven’t ridden a Shimano one but have ridden the reverb the largest piece of crap ever. Sram didn’t have the best luck with fluids so it’s no surprise the dropper has issues.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: If you went from an XTR 11-speed cassette to an XO1 cassette, you changed more than just the cassette.

But yeah, i've had the opposite happen...replacing the SRAM cassette with a Shimano cassette stopped the chain drop. I've seen it go both ways. Just depends on the frame.
  • + 6
 @bman33: Agree, us mechanics keep our shit running smooth, so I can see shimano giving you zero issues with normal brake bleeds etc. Also depends on where you live, I ride year round and there a lot of people putting 1000's of hard miles a year with no service,
  • + 6
 @MrDiamondDave: Exactly. It's like the Ford/Chevy debate. Hard to buy 'bad' bicycle stuff now. Yes, each of the major players has a screw up here and there. However, the mid to high end range stuff from both brands is pretty damn good compared to the late 90's, early 2000's. I am 44 and lived thru it all. That said, proper set up and maintenance is key .
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns:
Interesting. I visited my local bike shope this week, because they were opening under a new name.
And I was looking for a good deal on a new bike.
They had a few bikes with XT, SLX and Deore drivetrains. For show they were shifted to the biggest cog.
When backpedaling all of them droped their chain about 3-4 cogs almost immediately.
The Deore was acutally the least effected by that.
My Sunrace cassette didn't do that.
Anyway I bought a super nice hybrid bike with a Deore 3x10 for cheap.
  • - 4
flag wibblywobbly (Feb 2, 2019 at 4:08) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: it’s obvious I’m not going to change your mind. Maybe you prefer the feel of XT, but there is no way you can say it “slaughters” GX unless you either have no hands on experience or no grounding in reality. XT is decent. GX is a just a bit better.

I want nothing more than to buy highly precise, impeccably finished XTR from Japan. I want it to be like the original Lexus LS400 with perfect panel gaps and million mile reliablity. I use to be a Shimano fan boy. Right now they seem to be like one of those Japanese companies struggling with years of malasie and conservatism. They have forgotten how to take risks and successfully innovate. The competition has caught up and it’s no longer enough to simply have a reputation for reliability.
  • + 3
 @thenotoriousmic: make believe world where Shimano is still reliable, ha funny joke. In the real world sram is full of marketing bs and everything they put out is utter shit and full of problems that they can’t be bothered to take the blame for until they figure out how to manufacture it correctly, so they can make a quick buck and use their customers as their r&d department because they clearly don’t have one, and Shimano is an honest company not trying to screw over their customers like sram. For example, reverb sag, which didn’t get fixed until 17, on the market since 15. Guide master cylinder seizing, no recall, and could potentially have caused serious injuries to many people, because it wasn’t just 1 production run it was all the guides produced. Marketing bs I could write about for all of eternity, because it just never ends, but the biggest one being METRIC SHOCK SPACING because they can’t engineer how to build a decent shock within the constraints of imperial sizing like literally every other suspension company that takes up a sizable portion of the market share. I’m not a Shimano fan boy, I can just see that from an engineering and marketing standpoint Shimano is superior. Their new code brakes, which are supposed to be made to have the most raw power have at best equal power to the levels(I know from experience, I’ve ridden both), their drivetrains are utter garbage unless you buy the top of the line models(at which point they become half decent), and they have ruined every company they have bought out with their shit practices. If this was sram coming out with a new product that they royally f*cked up, trust me they wouldn’t delay production and publicly announce it. They would sell it anyways just like they have in the past. For a bunch of Germans, they sure are really shitty at engineering, which is the thing Germany is kinda known best for. I’d rather wait for slx 12 speed to come out than buy anything sram, because slx blows every reasonably priced sram drivetrain out of the water, and at least by the time it reaches that stage, Shimano will have perfected it and it will be a quality product, unlike sram where gx and nx eagle are shit.
  • + 0
 @MrDiamondDave: lol what
  • + 7
 @TheSlayer99: that was a joy to read. Thank you
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 2, 2019 at 8:17) (Below Threshold)
 @TheSlayer99: you could have saved yourself a lot of time by just saying your a deluded shimano fan boy and not have had to type all that rubbish out. I’d have got the message. If you want to state the case that shimano haven’t fallen that far behind I’ll listen but to claim they’re superior is just laughable right now especially in the comments section to a post like this. It’s up to you what you want to believe. I guess it’s just a coincidence 90% completes come equipped with sram and shimano parts are always in the bargain bin on chain reaction. Jump ship mate it’s better over at sram go back when shimano have sorted their act out if you love them so much but by spending money on their substandard components your sending the message that it’s ok and they won’t feel the need to improve. Vote with your wallet and you might get the shimano back you knew and loved. Your decision.
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 2, 2019 at 8:24) (Below Threshold)
 @bike2850: are they? What have they done in the last five years that sram didn’t ether do first or better? The only thing interesting they’ve done is the xtr silent hub... gutted.
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: in my opinion they have always done brakes better. personally i couldn't care about eagle. (yes i have ridden it) they are reaping the benefits of 12 speeds for sure and everyone who looks at it can say they have innovated 12 speed, what has shimano done? but i would argue that unless your a slow old man you don't need eagle so is it really the greatest innovation?
  • - 7
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 2, 2019 at 9:31) (Below Threshold)
 @bike2850: sram brakes were awful back when they were avid. Every avid brake I had or used sucked except the last generation of codes under the avid name. They knew they wasn’t good so they went back to the drawing board and rebranded. No one in their right mind is going to say that the current shimano brakes are better than the guide / codes. For a start you can adjust sram with shimano your stuck with that on off feel. shimano which needs constant maintenance to have them feeling good. I mean seriously shimano haven’t even figured out how to stop their brake pads ratting in the calliper. They don’t even know how to do that.
  • + 7
 @thenotoriousmic: Shimano brakes are better than guides/codes. as for the rattle give me a break you can just spread the little spacer spring thing or if that doesn't work for you take out the finned pads and put in some non finned ones. boom problem solved! i'm not sure about the guide timeline if it was still associated with avid but they were a nightmare when it came to warranty. its all based on personal preference for feel but you can not say they have fallen off as you would like to believe.
  • - 2
 @bike2850: currently there can b no talking about reliability, both companies suck. But when they work, feeling wise, I cannot find anything better than new Codes. More than enough power and fantastic modulation. Howver since both companies have different feel, I see how some may like Shimano more.
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 2, 2019 at 10:02) (Below Threshold)
 @bike2850: hilarious. Let’s take out the finned pads so they overheat even faster. Good idea but here’s a better one why not make them wedge shaped so they fit snug and don’t rattle? Shimano don’t think that far ahead they leave an expansion gap that makes you back wheel sound like it’s snapping spokes when your breaking over rough ground.

I am saying they’ve fallen behind I’m telling you exactly how they’ve fallen behind but typical fan boys won’t have it even though you secretly know I’m right. Anyway I’ve proven my point. I could keep swatting these flys all day but it’s Saturday night and I’m off out. Have a good one guys.
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: I am sorry, with all due respect, anyone who gets into Sram is better than Shimano or the other way around is kind of silly. Both companies have certain products whoch are better on one side and worse on another. That is why I use Sram cassette and brakes, with shimano cranks, shifting and chain. But at the end of the day, I wouldn’t cry if one of thm went out of business and never came back. Both make good and bad products.
  • + 6
 @wibblywobbly: Did you really come here expecting to change anyone's mind? I can't imagine you did. This has nothing do with changing minds. I'm not here to tell you that you shouldn't use SRAM if that's what you like. I'm simply here to squash claims that simply aren't true. In the context of your comment, the facts are as follows - GX was built to compete with SLX. X1 was built to compete with XT. That's not my decision, that's SRAMs decision. As for how they actually compare, the consensus based on a quick google search seems to be that SLX is slightly better than GX and XT is slightly better than X1. Again, not my claim - I always tell shoppers to compare SLX and GX, or XT and X1, again because that's how SRAM has positioned the groups.

So that's it. I'm not here to proselytize for Shimano. You ride what you like.
  • + 8
 @thenotoriousmic: The biggest fanboy in this comment section is you. You now have 17 comments in this thread alone. That's 50% more than ANYONE ELSE HERE. it's easy to see based on your use of the word "SRAM" in a positive context, "Shimano" in a negative context, and your use of the word "fanboy" directed at others that you are fully defensive and take negativity about SRAM personally. That's the definition of fanboy.

Enjoy that Kool-Aid.
  • - 3
 @thenotoriousmic: give it up. The Shimano fan boys/PB management downvote everything in to oblivion. Some pelple take it very personal when you say Shimano isn’t the best. It’s comical. It’s a losing battle. Dudes think it’s still 2005 and XTR has no competition. Meanwhile, 3 billion dollar company or not, they are losing OEM spec like crazy. Market has spoken.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: I’ve learned my way around the Pinkbike comments section from the best, what can I say.
  • + 2
 @TheSlayer99: no really, I am impressed I read it on one breath... continuous flow of rhythmic rantness Big Grin
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 3, 2019 at 5:40) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: xt rear mech full retail £90 sram X0 rear mech £180 but the general consensus is that XT’s slightly better but we all just like paying twice as much? I don’t think I’ll ever got bored of poking fun at the ridiculous things you silly fan boys say. XT sits somewhere between NX and GX performance and price wise. GX mech rrp £90.
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: omg, your head must be like a block of bricks.
Fanboys everywhere,. Let go my friend, let go.
  • + 9
 @thenotoriousmic: I don't think you have ever ridden a Shimano drivetrain before lol. The performance is by far better then NX and GX, and as you said yourself; the pricing is cheaper then Sram's "lower Midrange" drivetrain GX. As I said earlier in the thread, my shop has had to warranty several NX and GX derailleurs because of manufacturing defects such as not strong enough of a spring or too much play in the cage. You can tell the quality difference just by holding the derailleurs. Shimano's derailleur linkage/cage is tight, even after months of use. Right out of the box your getting play in the cage from both NX and GX derailleurs, which only gets worse with use. Obviously your going to disagree with this, but first why don't you go out and look at your own derailleur first, I bet you would be surprised. I am by no means a Shimano fanboy either. I have a set of X01 carbon cranks on my bike. This past summer I ran a GX 11 sp cassette rather then a Shimano, because the Shimano ones suck. Both companies have issues with their brakes, so lets not even get started on that.
  • + 7
 @Geoff-Smith: let’s just finish this conversation with: Sram doesn’t even have electronic shifting so it is 5 years behind Shimano.
  • - 5
flag wibblywobbly (Feb 3, 2019 at 21:46) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: but what about in a few weeks when SRAM has WIRELESS electric shifting! Shimano wires (and front derailleur) is so 2012. Heard Tesla is healing with their electron alignment so it’s going to be the best thing ever.
  • + 7
 @wibblywobbly: that’s how you can tell when someone is a fanboy. As if it made any sense to make electronic shifting, I said it like a stupid kid on the schoolyard “what about Di2?” BTW a system that Shimano dropped because it was so stupid to use on muntain bikes (as if it wasn’t dumb enough for any bicycle) and SRAM will bring it to the market and be like: “how can this be not cool anymore?” 12speeds, a Dinner plate and electronic shifting in one go. Full retard.

I know what innovation can Sram bring to the market. The Metric Chain! Yes! Shimano will be so back! Then 13 speed 10-52 Eagle with a new wider XD driver and Etap rear mech with servo controlled clutch deactivating itself when shifting,
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 4, 2019 at 1:34) (Below Threshold)
 @Geoff-Smith: I’ll do one better. I’ll post a picture of my two and a half year old gx derailer so you can have a look as well. Scared up but zero play still works faultlessly. I’d send a picture of my X0 derailer as well but honestly it still looks new. Sram don’t make they’re mechs out off cheese so unlike shimano the hanger will bend before the mech and normally you just need to bend the hanger back.

www.pinkbike.com/photo/16831016
  • + 2
 @RedRedRe: Upvote this to the stars people. Nothing like a company willing to introduce, continue selling, and then refuse to pay warranty work, for a major design defect that causes saftey issues (i.e. Guides locking up from heat sink).
  • + 1
 Just found this but I think it's still relevant. I had a nomad 3 with full XT m8000. I originally used an XT 11-40 cassette, and the chain would almost immediately fall off the biggest cog when back pedalling. I changed it after about two years to an XT 11-46 and the chain drop issue disappeared. It would pedal back two or three full revolutions before dropping. I'm going to say it's something to do with tooth profiles on the original m8000 cassettes. Brakes wise, I've got Shimano discs on all my bikes. MTBs, road bike and my wife's MTB. It pushes me to them because I have the bleed kit and oil, and also I much prefer the double upshift, two way release Shimano shifter. Anyway with all the inconsistency I experienced with my m8000 brakes I will not go shimano again. I also read that the wandering bite point issue is also present on the new xtr 9100 four pot brakes. On my new bike I will probably go code brakes, new xt or xtr 12 speed with an eagle cassette. Those old Shimano cassettes while reliable, are dinosaurs. Plus the micro spline is not going to proliferate as quickly as I would like.
  • + 0
 @jaame: Sram machine their cassettes to shift as perfectly as possible. Shimano still use stamped sheet metal from 1947. There’s no debate just those that know and those that don’t.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: that is such a prejudiced fanboi stuff, I wonder if it is more about Sram fanboism or resentment towards Shimano. I have both Sram and Shimano cassettes and difference is negligible. I even have a Sunrace cassette. If anything, Shimano XTR 9020 is the smoothest cassette that I have ever used and SRAM XX1 gives the most "toothy" feeling that I have ever experienced. So well maybe stamping isn't a bad option. For which exact reasons is CNC better than stamping? Is it like pinch bolts are bad? Smile
  • + 1
 @jaame: that'd be a nice build. I enjoy the Eagle stuff a lot, tho XTR is probably slightly better and using a SRAM cassette gets you out of shimanos slow adoption hub ecosystem that no one asked for. Aside from Saint DH brakes, shimano brakes aren't anything special aside from their decent reliability. Codes are rediculously nice Fwiw. I have XT, guides, slx, tektro etc in the garage and Codes are truly the complete package for a do everything brake. If I was always park riding at Mach speeds, maybe Saints would be more purpose specific but I'm not.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: I have the latest CODEs and they are the beat brakes that I have ever used. One ride and fell in love instantly. And I am a picky bastard. We’ll see how they fare in reliability contest. Hopefully better than Guides
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: same here. I've have guides a couple years and they have been ok aside from too much lever throw and no power ramp up. I don't see why anyone wouldnt just use codes by default. There is no need for Guide brakes. Sram should just make codes and work to make them better and cheaper.
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: "I wonder if it is more about Sram fanboism or resentment towards Shimano."

The answer is yes. Dude's got like 30+ posts in here bashing Shimano. Case closed.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I think that's fair. However there does seem to be this general shimano elitism that doesn't always line up and creates some frustration considering Shimano wide range cassettes and brakes have both been fairly significantly behind SRAM until the new XTR (and I'd still prob take Code brakes over them).
  • + 3
 @Svinyard: I don't see it. All I see is the opposite. The SRAM hype here is insane. SRAM is horribly overpriced for what you get - Shimano's equivalents are sometimes HALF THE PRICE!!! And it's pretty well established that SRAM lets us do their testing while Shimano spends years trying to get things right.

As for the cassettes - that's a matter of opinion. In my experience, SRAMs XD cassettes are a frikin nightmare to work with. Try removing one from a DT/Hope/King freehub after a full season of use. And they don't hold up any better than Shimano/Sunrace despite being 2x/3x the price. They are definitely lighter, but it seems ridiculous for me to complain about an extra 80g at the axle when i'm spinning an extra 500g at the tire.

As for the brakes - SRAM is on their fifth redesign trying to get things right while Shimano is still using the same design they've been using since 2010, and we're still waiting to see if the brand new SRAMs are as good as Shimanos.

I lean on what I experience in reality, because i've found over the years that what I read on the internet almost always does not work out in reality. Where I ride, guys either have SRAM because that's what came on the bike, or Shimano that they upgraded to. I don't know of a single rider that would be brave enough to claim SRAM makes better stuff than Shimano. ESPECIALLY brakes. Only on the internet do I find SRAM guys.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I cant disagree with your historic outlook. That being said in recent history SRAM 11sp wide range and Eagle were better than Shimano (BEFORE XTR) . Shimano wide range sucked due to the massive gear gap. Everyone is running Sunrace or SRAM cassette.

Brake wise Codes were better than any of the Shimano stuff and may still be.

I do like the midrange shimano shifting better than SRAM (we have both in the garage as well).
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: It's always one over another. When I watch football, sorry Soccer, I generally dislike the game, so I am always much more for Team A to lose than Team B to win. So I don't watch it much, once, twice a year, because it takes me to bad places of my psyche... recreational malice.
  • + 3
 @Svinyard: Well if your primary criteria is gear gaps, then i'm assuming you've only used the 11-46t cassette which does suck. One of the disadvantages to Shimano's extremely lengthy product development cycle is that they have to be good at predicting where the market is going, and they haven't been. They did a rare thing and "patched together" a bigger cassette just to have an offering in a space they didn't plan for. The result sucked. But that's one cassette. The 42t version is fine. Plus you can use any number of other Shimano-compatible cassettes *cough*sunrace*cough* that are just as well priced, with your Shimano drivetrain, to solve that issue. Seems silly to judge the entire 11-speed generation on one part.

You may have had better experience with Codes, but that hasn't held true for the general population. Just take a look at the comment section for the press release about the redesigned SRAM brakes to get a feel for how the current gen is working out. I know people complain about inconsistent bite-point on Shimano's brakes, but that's a lot better than complete failure. SRAM gets a little better with each redesign, but they're still chasing Shimano on the braking front, and based on the reviews of the m9100 brakes thus far, they're going to have new ground to make up.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I have never experienced problem with gear jumps being too big on a mountain bike. Never. Have 11-42 10sp cassette on my wife's bike. I am actually irritated with nr of cogs on 11sp! Too many cogs to go through on "technical" riding. Even on fireroad. For singletrack? when does one have time to think about gear ratio change when riding up a singletrack? I have had indeed experienced "wish I had in between gear" when riding on a rather flat road. That's it. This is why we have 10sp 11-25 cassettes on road bikes. But I bet, even in such case, there will be a dude who will be so bored to death with his road ride that he will go damn! If I only had 14 speeds, because that last 23rd to 25th cog, I'd totally use a gear in between! First world problem mongering bullsht.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: I have. At mile 30 of a 3000ft+ gain ride when my legs feel like they're not there, 2/3rds of the way up that last big climb, when I reach for a downshift and the gap completely blows up my cadence, or even the reverse - when the climb starts to level out and I need the next gear up but it feels like I hit a brick wall when I shift. I know that feeling. It's not something that happens alot, but man it sucks when it does.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I experienced that many times, but I pushed through with not much issue. On most of the fireroads I ride when I travel to Poland for the summer, the pitch changes often. Altitude also hardly plays a role for me, there are climbs with barely 1000ft difference which feel as bad as some 4000ft+ climbs I did in Italian Alps. If it's steep enough, if gravel is too chunky, it will kill your ambition quickly. Even Eagle won't help. Shut up, pedal, remember to eat and drink works every single time Smile Unless it is steep as hell with lots of chunk then 15 speeds 10-60 won't help and such stuff can come from behind any corner while riding in a new place.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: yeah you are right. The mid range 11-42 is very nice (I like it) but 11-42 range sucks. The alternative is to not use Shimano but move to SRAM for 10-42 or greater or sunrace... but then it's not a shimano drive train so I judge them only by their stuff and the weakest link is the weakest link. Especially for a large cog that gets used the most. If you give me a wide range sram VS shimano 11sp, I take sram everyday or Eagle (pre-xtr). The idea that Shimano engineering and testing clearly went out the window with their cassettes so I cant believe that. I have no idea why they can't add some modulation to their brakes.

Brake wise, the Code RSC have been great for people. Most (nearly all) complaints were mainly those guides with the piston issues which is totally valid (I don't think Guides should exist). But still, the Codes are a better brake than Shimano stuff aside from pure DH stuff. They have more power than XT stuff and certainly have the right amount of modulation. The guys I spoke to that rode new XTR brakes weren't blown away (the drive train is apparently great tho). Kind of a more powerful XT brake and still lack in modulation and are a fortune. Codes are freaking awesome and reportedly very reliable so far in bite point, piston movement etc.

Look I'm no fanboi by any means hence why I have all of these options on the garage (aside from new XTR). But the reality is reality. I just don't get why people make it such a black or white thing.
  • + 3
 @Svinyard: If you just prefer SRAM drivetrains, thats fine. I only take issue with outright BS. You ride what you like.

Shimano can add modulation to their brakes, but they have chosen more power instead. Just as completely on/off brakes can really suck, all the modulation in the world won't help you if you don't have POWER. If i'm just out for a leisurely fire-road ride, modulation is nice...hell i'll modulate all day and smile the whole time...but then I wouldn't notice the difference between BB7s and Saints on a ride like that. When i'm descending major chunk at mach chicken, F modulation, I WANT TO STOP. At the end of that run, I couldn't tell you how far I pulled the levers, how much modulation I felt, or anything really...I can just tell you that I stopped.

We are not going to agree on brakes. I think the comment sections on PB speak volumes. Shimano brakes just work, all the time. You may not know where the bite point is, but you know it's there somewhere. You don't know that with SRAM.

People will always debate over stuff like this. Ford vs Chevy, Shimano vs SRAM, Boeing vs Airbus, Football vs Football, Samsung vs Apple... and on and on and on.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: that's the beauty with Codes. You get some modulation early in the lever but then the anchors drop easily. Codes have plenty of power but also the modulation to go with it. Now they aren't Mt7 power or saints but close enough for sure. I rode some chunk the other day and having modulation through the techy setup before a big chute was awesome... At the bottom there was no straight rollout and I could just mash the brakes at the bottom to make the tight corner. The best of both worlds without the herky-jerky nonsense of my XT's or lack of power (they aren't that powerful but get up to power quickly). Have you ridden code rsc? They are impeccable with no compromises other than DH racing style stuff.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: XTs are great when they work, but inconsistent lever feel plagues them. For me the biggest difference is the zone where most modulation takes place. Shimanos seem to have more progressive feel, you can fine tune the early part of the stroke better than Srams which are linear. Codes fix where Guides fail that is the end of the stroke. Guides are a bit dead there. Codes on the other hand are fantastic by the end of the spectrum, you can fine tune “dropping the anchor” which inspires to brake hard. And that is what makes them the winner for me. Not the raw power, because that is only as useful as your ability to control it, where Formula falls quite short. If thwy only were as reliable as people claim Hopes are
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: are you talking about Curas? I haven't tried those but have considered getting some for my kid because they are light and powerful.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Apr 2, 2019 at 14:05) (Below Threshold)
 @Svinyard: I’m just sick of these miss informed blinkered fanboys spreading fake news all over pinkbike and I just think sram deserves more credit than it’s getting for the stuff it’s putting out. I was so hyped as a 14 year old when I got my first set of xt brakes and I still run XT’s to this day. I’ll always be a shimano fan boy at heart but they need to step up massively if I’m going to choose them over sram again.
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: as someone who’s just spent the last three hours riding XT brakes I couldn’t disagree more. Ice tech rotors and pads and they still overheat on a 1 min 40% gradient run. The pads rattle inside the callipers so there’s an actual dead spot in your braking as you’re trying to modulate over roots braking bumps etc not like that’s an issue because your bite point is all over the place so you never know if your going to be pulling back to the bar or your going over the bars with the lightest of touches. They all slowly leak over the pads and let air back in because there ceramic pistons don’t seal properly and they’re getting battered from the pads rattling around. I could go on all day but I’ll just leave you to talking nonsense on the internet and I’ll keep riding these bad boys.

www.instagram.com/the_astral_apache/p/Bkhdh89B_Fn/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=17d0v0svgpi60
  • + 2
 I did not have a problem with the shimano 11-46 having too big of a jump at the big end. I only used that as a bail out gear to conserve energy before smashing out the next DH run. I used the 11-40 for two years on the same hill. I could push 34x40 up there but it came to the question of you can, but why would you? I would be happy with a 40-50 jump at the big end. It does depend on your style of mountain biking though. Everyone isn't the same. I mean, some people like fat birds apparently. It takes all sorts.

From the sound of it, Code brakes have some problems too. The problem I have is believing what I read. I read at various times the Monarch Plus is a great reliable shock and it's almost coil like. I bought one and it turned out to be the biggest bag of shite ever. I read that M8000 brakes were sweet and unfortunately they were not exactly consistent. I read that Stan's Flow rims were strong and... I could go on.

So how about Hope Tech 3 E4 brakes?
  • + 2
 @jaame: See I have the same issue - what I constantly read here does not jive with what I experience in reality. I.E. - this is the only place where I find people who (claim to) swear by SRAM. This is also the only place I hear people making a big deal out of the bite point on Shimano brakes.

I've been using Shimano brakes for twenty years...couldn't even count how many sets i've depended on regularly from Deore through XTR and Saint. I have experienced noticeably varying bite points only maybe 5 times, and only on Deore and SLX. I've never experienced anything but perfection on XT/XTR/Zee/Saint brakes. Granted i've had the usual need-to-bleed again type issues, and extraneous noise...but that's not a brand-specific thing (in fact it tends to happen a lot more on SRAM and other brands from my experience). My shimano experience, and the experience of my (real world) fellow riders has been - struggle like mad to set them up initially, then bleed once a year and enjoy your ride.

I would not hesitate to recommend Hopes. My experience is limited to one ride with them but the few riders i've spoken to that have used them say they are every bit as good as Shimano, and better looking too. The problem is that they're twice as expensive...so looks need to be very important to you otherwise just buy XTs.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Apr 3, 2019 at 8:39) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: so basically all you know is shimano and have had little experience with anything else including hope which your more than happy to recommend after jumping on your mates bike once and not actually owning and maintaining them. I rest my case.
  • + 2
 @thenotoriousmic: Incorrect. I have little experience with Hope as noted, however I know other riders who have more experience.

My experience with SRAM is extensive. Without a doubt far more SRAM product has passed through my shop than Shimano. So it could be argued that i'm actually MORE experienced with SRAM than Shimano.

But you should definitely rest your case.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Apr 3, 2019 at 9:41) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: yeah I’ve got a lot of experience with hope and shimano and sram over 25 years not just what I’ve heard of other people. I’m about to spend another three hours getting sketched out by my xt’s because I’ve not had time to do it’s monthly lever bleed pretty confident my guide rsc’s That haven’t been ridden since October won’t need touching though when I get them out at the weekend. Personal experience not what someone’s told me.

Not a fan of the current holes. Don’t like how the lever feels physically and they’re hard to pull compared to sram brakes with the bearing and shimano are even lighter still which I really like about my XT and they have the nicest feeling lever also. I don’t like how they feel like they’ve got no power unless your really pulling on them but the build quality is amazing and the customer service is amazing. I once sent back a second hand set of brakes with a note saying not original owner he’s my details contact me and I’ll pay you to fix them and got a new set two days later. I don’t know if they’re still that generous because that was a long time ago and the only Hope product I had an issue with. I’d pick Hope brakes over anything if it wasn’t for the fact I personally don’t get on with them for now.
  • + 2
 I really wish I could turn off notifications for comments right about now. No offense, but you guys are just rehashing opinions over and over again. Let it go.
  • + 2
 @sherbet: Exactly. Here is the summary: "My "Blue S" brakes have NEVER had issues, how dare you say otherwise I don't care about your experience!" -OR- "My 'Red S' brakes have NEVER had any issues, the other companies are crap, your experience is invalid!" Wash, rinse, repeat. Big Grin
  • + 2
 For fucks sake, this article is three months old and your arguments are even older. Let. It. Go.
  • + 3
 @sherbet: You are not wrong. See I WAS having a nice conversation with a few other members but it appears that's over now and the fanboys are coming back.

I'm going to give it a rest.
  • + 2
 Actually Shimano vs Sram arguments on Pinkbike should be new Lorem Ipsum for InDesign
  • + 3
 I've never had a problem with older XTs, 860s or 870s, or Zee, or the non-series brakes on my wife's bike. They are literally nine years old and never had a bleed or a pad change - not a lot of use on that bike! M8000s though, I really did have issues. Basically any time there were a ton of roots or bumps, say for example you have to manual over a load of roots and then get hard on the brakes, the brakes would bite after pretty much no lever throw. They would be back to normal after a single pull. Pretty annoying and disconcerting. I bled those brakes a million times and they always did it. I did invest in a litre of brake fluid though which I can use on my other shimano brakes so it's not all bad. I wouldn't get them again like. I would just get Hope but everyone says they have no power.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Apr 4, 2019 at 2:20) (Below Threshold)
 @jaame: going to fast into a corner with braking bumps is terrifying with XT’s for the exact same reason also not helped by the fact that shimano don’t have the technical knowledge to know if you make your pads a wedge shape like sram you don’t need an expansion gap and your pads don’t rattle over roots and you don’t get that dead spot as your trying to modulate your random bite point down a rooty death chute. Honestly if you don’t have issues with shimano brakes I’m just going to assume your riding mellow trails slowly.
  • + 2
 @thenotoriousmic: @jaame: I had lots of issues with M8000, which were supposed to be from the "fixed" batch (which most mechanics will tell you is a BS, they are all the same, including the replacements people get). Rebled many times, than I just left them as they were and they got better. Neglectance worked. Untill last visit to the Dirt Jumps...
  • + 2
 Anyone tried the new XTR enduro brakes yet?
I am told XT 8100 is going to be out in proto form this month, and available to buy before the end of the year.
I would go that route just for the sake of a clean bar if they have solved the bite point issue.
  • - 3
 @WAKIdesigns: yep I’ve experienced this with four m8000’s and two m7000’s just got to keep doing those lever bleeds every three or four rides to keep them usable. You’ve still going to have the leaky pistons and all the other issues shimano brakes have always had even if they do fix the the bite point issue.
  • + 2
 @jaame: ask mechanics around whether the lever has been changed on the inside (if they have opened one). It was the lever fkng up everything
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns and @jaame: The levers HAVE been updated, however for whatever unknown reason, Shimano never thought to increment the model number, like they've done plenty of times in the past, so we can identify the revised levers. Probably in an attempt to not devalue all the levers already in circulation and to a lesser extent, to not look like they were admitting there was a problem. As a result, it's next to impossible to know for sure that you are getting a revised lever.

Though I thought I remembered seeing a mechanic posting on MTBR about a diaphragm mod that fixed the problem on the first version levers...i'll see if I can find it.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Apr 4, 2019 at 6:18) (Below Threshold)
 You are so full of shit it’s untrue. Yesterday you was claiming you’ve never even heard of anyone experiencing issues with xt brakes and they’ve never been anything but faultless or whatever and now your not only admitting it’s a problem but that shimano are trying to hide it from their customers. Just go and treat yourself to a set of codes mate. Stop being stubborn.
  • + 1
 @jaame: I have heard similar with newer Shimano XT. I had great luck with the older versions. That said, I have had Hope brakes on both my Trail bike and DH bikes for 3 + years. I live in Colorado and do endless bike park laps, few enduro races at an Masters' expert level and at least one Whistler trip per year. Hope's have plenty of power along with modulation. I don't really know where the 'no power' thing comes from other than they don't lock up with the slightest pull like Saints do.
  • + 1
 @bman33: I have noticed a lot of shop guys in the UK who could buy any brake they wanted at employee discount using Hope Tech3 E4s. Last summer I was in the UK and asked a couple. They said yeah, they are awesome brakes. On that same trip I used a Turbo Levo rental bike with Guides and I thought wow, these brakes are a lot better than my XTs back home. That was the first time I had used those brakes. I have used the older Codes on a Nukeproof DH rental bike a couple of times, but they failed to impress. I just don't know what to do.
I guess I really need to try some Hope brakes for myself.
  • + 1
 @jaame: just get some Code RSC's. They have the modulation similar to Hope's best but a bit more power.
  • + 127
 UPDATE: What is going on with Richie Rude's positive drug test?
(idk, was just wondering the other day, wasn't sure if this was a place to ask)
  • + 24
 psht leave it to a roadie to only care about doping.
  • + 3
 @scott-townes: Or also rides a Yeti and races enduros...
  • - 5
flag WAKIdesigns (Jan 31, 2019 at 12:14) (Below Threshold)
 Oh so you ask about Richie... you know that I know that you know that it would be #toosoon
  • - 1
 Got full xt on my current bike. Last was x01 and guides. Had loads of issues with the guides, x01 was flawless. Went xt because it's cheap to replace and a lever bleed is so quick and easy.
  • + 0
 Jared said #metoo.
  • + 7
 @ReformedRoadie: Vegans, Rodies, and Yeti bike owners are all the same. Why do you need to tell us the bike brand? It doesn't give you automatic respect. You own a Yeti, big deal.
  • + 5
 @Yippee-Ki-YayMF: let me explain this so you can comprehend it. I have a Yeti. I am a fan of the brand. Rude races for Yeti. That is all. I really couldn't care less if someone on the internet 'respects' me for whatever reason.
  • + 1
 @ReformedRoadie: That's a pretty dumb reason as to why you care about what's happening with Rude....
  • + 1
 @ReformedRoadie: You sound pretty insecure dude.
  • + 71
 Shimano being late really doesnt bother me. Being a shop employee and seeing the difference between sram and shimano really gives you perspective. Sram always has the latest and greatest, but shimano just plain works. I expect this will be no different. Sram 11 speed had like 15 click of range on the barrel adjuster where the shifting would work, meaning you could be 7 clicks tight or 7 clicks loose of perfect and it would still shift and hold gears, with eagle, that range is down to like 5 clicks of total range and even then its finicky with the b-tension. Think you have your eagle set up perfectly? Hit one rock with it and all of a sudden you need to adjust it. Owner of gx and xo1 eagle here, waiting patiently for shimano to hit our shop so I can make the change. (If someone from shimano is reading this, please dont make we switch hubs though!)
  • - 29
flag thenotoriousmic (Jan 31, 2019 at 11:07) (Below Threshold)
 Hit a shimano mech of a rock and it will break though. Id rather readjust it than have to buy a new mech.
  • + 25
 I have SRAM on all my bikes but a 1 hour ride with XTR yesterday was enough to convince me to switch. The shifting feels like a tiny sequential gearbox out of something like a Radical. The shift action is so positive and the shifting is so instantaneous. Stuff I thought was great about XX1 now seems pretty clunky and unrefined.
  • - 2
 Try saying that to anyone that has an XT M8000 groupset, you need to break your thumb in order to use the shifter. SRAM have definitely moved far ahead of Shimano in terms of their gearsets (Not brakes IMO). Also, how do you know that the XTR groupset will be better than eagle in terms of ease of set up? It's not like they're easily available at the moment....
  • + 8
 This. I used shimano for years. Took a flyer on GX Eagle and nothing but constant issues keeping it running smoothly. I'm all over the XTR since XT probably won't come until after the riding season of 2020. Odd the cranks and hubs are in stock at several European distributors.
  • + 14
 @AD4M: I dunno, I have xt8000 and don't find the action to be tough at all, my buddy has GX Eagle, and it's nice but doesn't seem like the action is that much better. The big difference was on a particularly muddy ride, his GX chainring kept throwing the chain off and my Wolf Tooth Drop Stop never once had an issue.
I'd take an entire day of not dealing with chain drops over two years of slightly stiffer action.
  • + 20
 Pick a drive train and be a dick about it. If you are happy with what you run keep running it. My personal preference has always been shimano. The indexing feels cleaner to me and I have always found their products reliable (last 6 years at least- way back in the day I always used to break that stupid pin on the xt detailer's that would leave it flacid and useless and the initial Sram X9 was godsend as it didn't have that issue for people hyperextending deraleurs regularly... but that hasn't been an issue for years). I rushed into a GX build in my new ride and have replaced most of it as it just didn't hold up or work the way I wanted- the XO I replaced it with seems to be holding but I miss my 11sp XTR- just worked really well.
  • + 15
 @AD4M: I have the XT M8000 groupset and it works perfectly... Shifting is easy and positive.
  • + 0
 @WoodstockMTB: Most people fail to set the damn b-screw AT SAG, this causes issues. The system is a bit sensitive to it. I've been on X01 Eagle and other than the odd barrel adjustment, ZERO issues. My buddy, had a super shop bro set his up (had an issue)...still had problems. I throw it on the stand for 10mins and 4 months later he still has had zero issues. I'm guessing he isn't the only one that had a guy not understand the nuance of setup and created issues. Good news is that its super easy to do but you need two people and the little red tool.
  • + 6
 @Svinyard: That's exactly what I'm talking about, when it works it works pretty good, but its just so sensitive to everything. Kids run through the shop playing with barrel adjusters and shifting gears while the bikes are in the floor stand makes me wanna cry!!!
  • + 11
 so it's not just me? I hate the shifting of the SRAM Eagle stuff. Seems like it is ALWAYS out of adjustment. Really thinking about going to XTR. I'll just miss my grip shift (don't laugh)
  • + 9
 @AD4M: I guess I just have strong thumbs. I've never had an issue with M8000 stuff. I'm on my first SRAM drivetrain now(not by choice) and I can't say that I care for it. I'm just waiting around to switch to Shimano once their new big range single is out and finalized...so probably next year.
  • + 4
 I love that on a press release with Shimano saying they fucked up horribly, people will still find a way to downtalk on Sram, whom I will add has been steadily adding more features and releasing more functional products constantly in the meanwhile. This all comes off as insane fanboyism. And no, old sram did not have a 15click range on the adjusters. That's mental.
  • + 8
 @Svinyard: Why the hell would you design any drivetrain system to require rear derailleur setup *at sag*? The only time every bike has it's rear wheel in the same place for every rider, and every brand and every type of terrain is at full extension.
  • + 2
 @sherbet: Have to agree,

I'm totally indifferent SRAM v Shimano but Shimano has clearly left a lot to be desired here and in recent years for what is a massive company that should be able to do better. They've been left behind in developing and delivering 1x drivetrains and are resting on historical perceptions of quality and performance.

You can still only get 11sp drivetrains from Shimano and their 11-46 cassette is a rushed bodge-job. Meanwhile SRAM has moved on and on and now dominates the market for drivetrains on new bikes at all price points.

For every person who wants to rave about one brand and dismiss the other with a handful of anecdotal experience (and delve into tangential topics to this article like brakes), there are just as many on the other side.

Shimano has clearly stuffed up here and it should be acknowledged. By the time Shimano manages to release 12spd XTR, let alone XT and SLX, SRAM will be well down the line of introducing the next chapter of mtb drivetrains.

And I'll also add that I wanted the entire XTR groupset on my next bike, which I expect will now have to be SRAM (I struggle to believe all will be resolved in the next couple of months).
  • + 6
 @AD4M: I have XT M8000 on both of my bikes and I do think it is a bit harder to shift than GX although not much but it is much more reliable in my experience so I won't be going back to GX.
  • + 12
 In many cases where I see people complaining about the new Shimano shifter tension (i.e. XT M8000), it's because they're not using genuine Shimano Optislick/Polymer cables, but instead a standard stainless cable...be it they replaced with a standard stainless cable, or the manufacturer just used standard cables from the factory for budget. The truth is the Shimano Optislick/Polymer cables are *that* good, and you really should be using them for best experience (I'd recommend DA Polymer over the Optislick). Is an extra $10 over stainless really too much for a summer season of butter shifting?
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: Good info!
  • - 4
flag AD4M (Jan 31, 2019 at 18:34) (Below Threshold)
 I have had various iterations of Shimano gears on different bikes (xt and slx 10spd, xt 11spd) and I have always found the shifting to be incredibly firm, even when brand new. Have been using GX eagle for a good while now and it hasn't missed a beat.
  • - 1
 @Svinyard: Thanks. I'll give it a try. I'm not really harshing on SRAM other than it has been far from set it and forget it. Setting B screw as a two person job with a special red tool is lame even if it works. I do agree SRAM is pushing the envelope and seem to be one generation ahead. IF SRAM can fix the sensitivity of their drivetrain and reduce weight even more....they will still be head. I have always just liked Shimano. I like their shifters better. I know how to get it up and running, but maybe XTR will have me eating my words.
  • + 7
 @thenotoriousmic: actually sram anything explodes if you get close to a rock! Shimano can smash many a rock without issue
  • + 6
 @jimschulze: yeah sram sucks
  • - 7
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 1, 2019 at 1:32) (Below Threshold)
 @markar: my gx derailer looks like I’ve been doing feeble grinds on it. Two years old. I’ve never got 12 months out of a shimano derailer for a long long time.
  • + 2
 @snl1200: I get the feeling that 10 and 11 speed shifters and derailleurs just worked better and more reliably than 12 speed.
  • + 10
 @sherbet: Seems the people here would sooner have proven tech delivered late, than shoddy products as soon as possible. Shocking!
  • + 0
 @AD4M: are you, by any chance, a toddler?
  • - 7
flag AD4M (Feb 1, 2019 at 14:23) (Below Threshold)
 @arrowheadrush: Are you, by any chance a butthurt shimano fan boy who A: Can't accept the fact that Shimano aren't perfect when it comes to their gearsets (or brakes as well-look at the changing bite point issues on the more recent xt/xtr/slx brakes) and B: Also struggles to accept that although not perfect either, that Sram are well ahead of Shimano in terms of gearsets?
  • + 6
 @AD4M: i seem to have hit a nerve, i'm merely poking fun at you for thinking you need to "break your thumb" to use an XT shifter. Don't take shit so seriously buddy :*
  • - 5
flag AD4M (Feb 1, 2019 at 16:19) (Below Threshold)
 @arrowheadrush: and I merely just exaggerated my reply to your exaggerated response to my original tongue in cheek comment. Just trying to make the point that both Sram and Shimano are good and bad at certain things, (hence why I run Gx eagle with Zee brakes), and not that Shimano is the be all and end all that a lot of people in this comment section are making them out to be.
  • + 7
 I rode the new XTR for 2 hours at Worlds (they had a fleet of Scott bikes for demo). It's really outstanding. Better feel, better gear spacing, and noticeably smoother than XX1 Eagle (which I have on my main bike; that's great too but it's a notch below XTR and on the finicky side and very susceptible to slight changes in alignment). The new XTR race brakes are a step up as well, they modulate as well as SRAM and have XTR stopping power. We should be glad that Shimano is working to get this right. When they get it right, they will rock. (Of course, by then SRAM will have something else shiny and new to attract attention).

Makes no sense to knock Shimano USA for manufacturing issues over which they have no control. The only victim from the delay is Shimano. Their "old" (current) XTR can't sell except at discount, and they are losing market to SRAM. I bought a new race bike recently and XX1 Eagle was the obvious choice thanks to XTR's unavailability.
  • + 55
 So summary of this shit show:
- No Scylence hubs and 11sp that people are hyped about
- No working with independent manufacturers to produce compatible alternatives
- Leaving riders waiting on their new bike for MONTHS with failed promise after failed promise
- Restricting licensing of Microspline drivers to DT and I9 only, leaving riders with little choice
- Giving customers a black nondescript crank when they have paid for XTR
- Launching a product that can't be manufactured
  • + 46
 Meanwhile, SRAM continues to sell the shit out of Eagle.
  • + 6
 And Onyx has had a Scylent hub for a minute.
  • - 4
flag OvaltineJenkins (Jan 31, 2019 at 14:43) (Below Threshold)
 @Poulsbojohnny: which, unfortunately, doesn't mean Eagle is the answer.
  • - 8
flag ibishreddin (Jan 31, 2019 at 14:45) (Below Threshold)
 @Poulsbojohnny: eagle is shit
  • - 2
 @demolist
Scylence hubs - who waits for 300-500$ hub with angular contact bearings?

I agree on the rest
  • + 3
 -No cheap XT8100 until 2021 AT LEAST.
  • + 14
 The *biggest* bullet point everyone is missing: Shimano went out of their way to create new chain-plate, cassette-tooth, & chainring-tooth profiles that are not cross-compatible w/ other brands. *Screw that* I already own an awesome crankset and have zero interest in replacing every part on the bike (hubs included!) just to try Shimano's flavor of 12 speed. Consumers simply said no to your BS "system integration" pitch for Di2 2x front shifting Shimano, in what bizarro world do you think they'd say yes to an entire new group as an "all or nothing" proposition?
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: beats me but I guess some people are just excited about a possibly lighter alternative to Onyx. Me, I like my hubs loud af lol.
  • + 4
 @endlessblockades: twice the weight and $100 more tho
  • + 4
 Really bummed about no Scylence and 11sp. I was gonna build a new wheel and just run my 11sp XT, but now I'd have to get 12sp shifter, derailleur, oh and that'll mess up my elegant Ispec setup unless I get new brakes too. I love Shimano but I'm not buying.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: A lot of people were comparing Scylence hubs to the current CK design when they came out. I honestly don't know a lot on these designs, took me a bit of time to understand how Scylence worked. However, it looks like they are using a concept that is similar to CK in the sense that once the ring drive is engaged, there seems to be very robust engagement points, unlike a pawl system, more like CK and DT Star Ratchet.

I didn't notice the bearings in the Scylence images though, are angular contact bearings different than what DT and CK are using? I keep refering to these two as they are, apparently, two of the toughest hubs around.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: From CK website "Unlike common radial bearings, we build sealed angular-contact bearings that allow for adjustment as they are used."

What is your opinion on the CK hubs/bearings?
  • + 2
 @cole-bikeva: you can use the new XTR shifter with a Ispec Ii setup (if that’s what you have). The hack is simple with no odd mods. Google is your friend here.
  • + 1
 @guylovesbike: the key word in your quote is "sealed". Shimano's cup-and-cone system is outdated. Kill a cone or a cup and your expensive hub is done. CK's bearings are replaceable.
  • + 1
 @southoftheborder: Thanks! Is the cup-and-cone problem still present in the original Scylence hub design?
  • + 2
 @guylovesbike: yes, Shimano defends the cup-and-cone design because it bears cross loads better than radial bearings.
  • + 3
 @guylovesbike: The difference is CK uses ready made, sealed bearings that you can either service or change when they go to sht. Once Shimano bearings go to sht, whole wheelset/hub goes to sht.

@southoftheborder: yes and when you go to a bike park and hub seizes a bit, you can throw away the hub/ wheelset (Shimano is really bad at providing spare hubs for their wheelsets - so the whole thing... goes to sht) Anyone can notice play/seizing on regular ride involving a climb. Good luck in gravity fed riding! Been there done that, won't do it again. All people buying XTR wheelsets free willingly and don't service them often (like 3 times a year) are lunatics.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: amen to all you said. I'd venture to say any half competent home mechanic could clean and regrease their hub sealed bearings under an hour. Shimano's cup and cone setup takes a lot more work. If you want to squeeze every second of life out of them, you should ideally disassemble the axles and inspect both the cups and the cones. And adjusting their free play once you are back to assembly isn't trivial.
  • + 47
 Seriously Shimano is poor at this or understaffed. As an Aerospace Manuf/Eng consultant I can tell you quality doesn't take time, it takes talent, proper process and solid supplychains. Taking this much time means that the quality of their internal product development life cycle is broken somewhere. Time and cycles are expensive and no one wants that. It's not a good thing.

SpaceX has built a reusable space rocket in the time it's taken XTR to get built...
  • + 16
 I agree, the chain is broken, well played young man, well played.
  • + 10
 ~cough~ Boeing 787 ~cough~
  • + 12
 but they dont have to produce tens of thousands of those rockets do they?
  • + 3
 I'm almost 100% sure Shimano doesn't have comparable resources and finances to the aerospace industry, so your comparison is a tiny bit unfair.

That and the fact that none of us have ever heard of any plane crashes.......
  • + 1
 Well, it's the difference between Slippery Pete's Homebaked Hubs, in which he has to fulfill a yearly order of 20 (12 for his bros) and Shimano, which has to mass produce these for at least 18 billion people.
  • + 2
 Hear this guy. he has the cash for paying an xtr group with pocket money. Half of the people complaining here won't ever spend money on a top groupset. I thought the delay was due to last year's fire at one of the factories in Japan.
  • + 10
 @timbud: Lol what? Shimano is a 13 BILLION dollar company with 3B+ in sales a year. Not exactly a Mom and pop shop. They are literally just trying to copy what SRAM (a relatively small company) and Onyx did yrs ago and make it better....and jacking it up. If they don't choose to invest in this portion of their business, that's their decision and their fault.
  • + 4
 @bike2850: no, but they make tens of thousands of parts for those rockets and most of them have to function near 100% of design all of the time. Completely different level of quality control in aerospace, pharma..etc.
  • + 2
 Supply chain issues in Arospace MRO, umm...can be unbelievable. Our engine MRO co-developes and has a % share in all of the new GE/P&W/CFMI turbine programs, and we still struggle to get cooperation from the OEM for parts Frirnd but enemies, totally power struggle, it’s nuts! The mtb industry should be comparatively easy Smile
  • - 1
 @Svinyard: you and I both know that figure is still a fraction of that compared to aerospace so I stand by my original point.
  • + 1
 @timbud: with all due respect building a reusable rocket is harder than making a crankset...
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: yeah no shit! And that just makes the original comparison even more ridiculous
  • + 1
 @timbud: regardless of the budget... however please notice that many rockets tend to go to sht spectacularly before one goes to space. Shimano changed manufacturing method and I am not surprised something went "oooooh crap" after they started pumping out stuff. After iall I do belive their cranks are the best in the buisness.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: you don't have to tell me that, its not what I'm talking about.
I know good Shimano cranks are, I've already got the MT900s on order, to replace my current XOs.

My only point here has been the comparison between the aerospace industry and Shimano's. Whilst Shimano's resources are vast (although I feel I have to point out that not all of it is focussed on XTR) it is not correct to compare them with Boeing/Airbus/SpaceX etc.
  • + 42
 Something he didn't mention, that did get mentioned on S-TEC (the dealer training site) is that big fire at the Shimano facility last year really set things back for a lot of new gear too. I think this bad of a delay (hub aside) are probably a one-off thing. It's too bad about the hub, I've been looking for an Onyx alternative forever. Back to waiting!
  • + 23
 Why would you need anything better than Onyx?
  • + 15
 @nug12182:
I would assume most folks have not had the pure joy of riding a Onyx hub.
  • + 21
 @nug12182: did they finally get them under 700g for the rear?
  • + 23
 @nug12182: Because the Onyx weighs 14 pounds.
  • + 0
 @TheStabbyCyclist: Silly reason in my book. If you go lighter, they won't be as durable. Onyx has a new hub that shaves about 1/4 lb, but smaller bearings won't last as long. Remember, light, durable, inexpensive, pick two Smile
  • + 6
 @RobKong: I guess I just don't worry about weight.But man that instant engagement is hard to get away from now.Just got new set of Hope wheels and its night and day the way they feel.
  • + 4
 @nug12182: Weight and $
  • + 3
 Onyx quality and engagement are definitely worth the weight penalty. Their updated hubs that are lighter should be available close to March
  • + 2
 Can't find Onyx hubs in Canada. I recall when I did manage to find them way back when, the rear alone was $620.
  • + 1
 @bsedola: Alba Distribution in Whistler is your place to go
  • + 5
 @nug12182: It only takes one ride on an Onyx hub and the worry of weight goes out the window. Been riding MTB and BMX since the early 90s and the one part that will go from new bike to new bike is my Onyx rear hubs. They're spendy, but the warranty is awesome. I really don't see how a pedaling experience can be made better than Onyx. There are few things I would stand behind more.
  • + 4
 I had heard that the engagement on the onyx feels a little soft- though instant. I have never ridden one. Anyone have comments on whether or not that is the case when you compare an Onyx with a King or I9? I'll also keep in mind that if you invest in something there is a psychological protection to allow you to think that your choice was the best- so if anyone who doesn't own one and has ridden it can compare it to others that would be helpful also. Loved the concept when I heard it and they looked solid.
  • + 2
 @snl1200: I have one on my 2019 Stumpjumper. I love the thing. Yea, it's a little soft on engagement, but that doesn't distract--just feels objectively different than the slam-bam engagement feel/sound we're all used to since riding BMX bikes at 5 years old.

It has changed the feeling I get when I mountain bike, simply due to the silence as you're flowing through sweet singletrack. It also pays big dividends on technical switchback climbing, when you sometimes need to reclock your cranks to get over a rock--that instant engagement is the difference between success and a stupid dab.
  • + 9
 I don't want a quiet hub. I like that I can coast and clear out the hikers without saying a word.
  • + 4
 @nug12182: Because Onyx have thus far been notoriously fragile and weigh 500g? That's horrible. If durability is in your mind, get a starratchet hub and call it a day.
  • + 1
 @sunringlerider: just got a new WR1 wheelset with a set of onyx hubs, is it really that good? rain is keeping me from riding..
  • + 2
 @sunringlerider: god oh god i get orgamsic every time i ride with my onyx hubs.
  • + 1
 @snl1200: those moments where you have rollers and you half pedal? no more searching for the engagement point since its instant. so more power down quickly = more speed. also, i notice my knees don't feel the ache after a long pedal, since there is no jerkiness at the engagement point, feels forgiving yet stiff at the same time
  • + 9
 @sherbet: Ive been riding the shit out of my Onyx hubs for a couple years now and have not had a single problem with them.
  • + 5
 @nug12182: ive got a thousand miles on mine without service, bombing the shit out of trails and park jump lines. i will never buy another bike without onyx hubs
  • + 1
 @Medicfung: Yeah- I've ridden both I9 and King hubs over the years and both have that quality to them. I think anything that gets you around or under 6 degrees has that instant feel- I'm wondering about that feel of when it clicks in as someone once described the onyx as "a bit soft feeling" and I'm not sure if that's accurate or if it would be an issue
  • + 3
 @nohit45: Been riding with Onyx on my Warden Carbon for two years now. Love the engagement and silence. I didn't realize how heavy my rear end was until I test rode a Zerode Taniwha. Yeah, the Zerode is going to have a lighter weight hub than any conventional bike out there but the weight difference was immensely noticeable and made for a really nice ride. Won't ever get a gearbox bike as long as they're grip shift though.
  • + 1
 @snl1200: I don't own them but have serviced them / test ridden them enough times and as such can be pretty subjective, and they certainly have a slightly soft feel to them. Very similar to the likes of a Shimano Alfine hub (also clutch based but different design). Whether that's an issue is up to the individual. I want to love them as the technology is pretty cool but......I don't.
  • - 1
 @sherbet: Fragile? I'm calling BS on your experience there. Anything can fail once(even your precious DT hubs) and a one-off is typically that. All your comments so far on here have been trolling at best. Most every line is filled with exaggerated claims and superlatives. News flash.... your sh#t DOES stink! I can hear the tut-tutting from here...
  • + 1
 @Medicfung: I just bought Hope wheels and its very annoying (especially on my hard tail) to not have the instant engagement.I thought I might like them but I don't.The Hope wheels are nice though.
  • + 33
 Creating a product then realising that you can't manufacture them AFTER launching just sounds like the sort of things you'd hear from small bootleg garage brands. Not from a company as big as Shimano. By the time the XTR is out, SRAM will be laughing in their faces with the e-tap Eagle wireless shifting.
  • - 16
flag RedRedRe (Jan 31, 2019 at 11:03) (Below Threshold)
 Yeah... better served w SRAM and their recalls and faulty products.... where to start...?
  • - 8
flag wasea04 (Jan 31, 2019 at 11:26) (Below Threshold)
 @RedRedRe: Slow and steady versus flash and failures...I'll take the tortoise. Not hating on SRAM, instead just appreciating the time and quality of Shimano gear.
  • + 15
 @RedRedRe: Funny how you manage to bash SRAM when the whole issue is about Shimano. Sounds like you have personal vendetta against them.
  • + 1
 @RedRedRe: sram doing recalls? Funny joke
  • + 1
 @wasea04: what quality? shimano still use plastic thumb paddles on their shifters.
  • + 20
 If mass production (still) hasn't been figured out, I'd say beginning of March launch is wishful thinking and not realistic.

Shimano is going to be in deep sh*t if they run into the same issues with new SLX and XT. If Shimano cannot deliver at least OEM spec in a timely fashion, it's going to force bike brands to spec alternate brands to ensure their own success.
  • + 1
 Agreed. Unless this interview is about a month or 2 old, I'd say April or may realistically
  • + 4
 Its already happening with Canyon, Pivot and Cannondale...specing their bike with RaceFace crankset
  • + 4
 Yup, Santa Cruz is speccing e*thirteen cranks on their XTR builds.
  • + 1
 For the March release they're using the "black crank" which can be produced currently with existing production methods. The new XTR crank will still not be available in March because, as you said. This is how I understood it, anyway.
  • + 1
 according to Pivots websites they are using RaceFace crankset with Shimano chains ... wonder if they are running a different chainring ????
  • + 5
 Trek is already 90% SRAM on the mtb side, unless things change dramatically, I bet they'll be the same for 2019 and 2020.
  • + 1
 @tuumbaq: We've seen an XTR 429 Trail come in with a RF crankset and a Wolftooth chainring.
  • + 17
 aint nobody got time for this
  • + 8
 *money
  • + 17
 I got bronchitis!!
  • + 13
 What a joke of a launch, not only has it been difficult and frustrating informing customers that xtr is not available but now shimano is going back and redesigning their hubs? Cant wait for shimano north america to get stock in for late 2019
  • + 1
 Hi Pedal Head. Keep up the good work. I can't believe this either.
  • + 13
 Fwiw don't for a second think that SRAM hasn't been innovating this whole time still. You'll see something very cool coming from them soon enough.

Still irritating that Shimano just reinvented a new std just to not use XD (which SRAM doesn't charge to use iirc). I'm sure it's mildly better in someway but entirely a Pita for no good consumer reason. Especially with them failing at the Sylence hub stuff.
  • + 2
 Sram reinvented a new standard with XD. Shimano has had the same cassette design for decades that SRAM leveraged until Eagle. The reason is Shimano does their own thing respectively and the new cassette interface will just end up being the Shimano one once it trickles down to SLX level....JUST like SRAM did with XD
  • + 3
 Even more frustrating considering e*thirteen managed to build a cassette that fits nicely on an XD driver without needing their IP either.
  • + 8
 @bman33: Just to be picky, XD drivers actually came out with SRAM 11 spd
  • + 15
 @bman33: SRAM created XD to allow a 10T cog. The existing standard didn't allow that. Shimano made microspline to... allow a 10T cog.
  • - 2
 @neologisticzand: Ahhh, Kudos, forgot it was 11. My point still stands though
  • + 0
 @mobaar: your point? Shimano and SRAM have had different cassettes since XD. They will continue to have different ones, just Shimano is updated their current design that is 30+ years old. Why is everyone crying about it? I mean, I hate it when my 1980 engine components from a car don't automatically bolt up to my 2008 car. So frustrating.
  • + 6
 SRAM were smart enough to make XD adaptable to most any hub, costing you $50 or so for the change. Clearly Shimano realized SRAM was right in needing a 10 gear for 1x after they were trampled in the marketplace on their 1x11 (which showed up years too late anyway). So they thought a proprietary hub available on only one or two wheels? Someone in Shimano R&D needs to be in charge of understanding consumer behavior before they design something. Hell, they haven't even been smart enough to adapt their Di2 to the Pinion Gearboxes, which is really the only way mountain biking benefits from electronic shifting.
  • + 1
 @Rubberelli: Two components to the new Shimano cassette: 1. the silent drive (seems to have patent issues) and 2: the acutal splines themselves. Sure only Shimano, DT, and i9 have the spline for their respective drive formats (i9 isn't the silent drive). However, once Shimano has everything sorted, gaurantee King, Hope, Onyx and number budget hubs will get the same spline just like they do know with the current Shimano cassette. Remember everyone, there was a time when ALL freewheels/cassettes were thread one and the modern cassette driver didn't exist. The first few years of its existence only a small number of hub makers had it then. Relax folks. Seems same people whining about this were the same ones whining about XD and a 'new standard' when it came out. #firstworldproblems
  • + 1
 @bman33: I realize that Shimano is trying to replace the old Shimano hub standard and they thought a whole bunch of wheel makers would fall in line. However, since they are abandoning their new hub and did not have an adaptable spline solution for existing hubs, I would take that to mean that they realized this wasn't going to happen and the product would fail in the marketplace.
  • + 1
 @Rubberelli: They aren't abandoning the the entire thing, just the silent drive, for now. I bet almost 100% they have a patent challenge vs. adoption from hub makers. i9 and DT already spent the R&D and $$ to have a microspline option so there is that point. Hub makers had to create an XD driver that used whatever ratchet/drive they use (King, DT, i9, Onyx, Hope, etc.). For example, i9 uses there pawl drive, not Shimano. I think DT is the same (possibly a silent option if that gets resolved). No reason they can't flip to the microspline of the 'new' Shimano regardless if the silent drive ever sees the light of day. In addition, it lets Shimano finally have a 10t cog on their own tech vs. someone else's. I don't see any issue her other than we are at the 'grey area' of old vs. new. In two years nobody will blink for the microdrive, again regardless if silent of not, the same way they stopped complaining about XD when it came out.
  • + 0
 @bman33: I see no issue other than marketability. So do you think his quote "there are other hub options in the market so we won’t hold the rest of the group if these hubs show up even a few days later" mean they will make their cassette for XD or what?
  • + 1
 @Rubberelli: I don't think it means they will make a cassette for XD at all. I believe it means folks like i9 and DT whom already have the microspline you can order are out there and others like Hope, King etc. are in the works of making them.
  • + 1
 @bman33: from this press release and previous ones, it seems you need to get licensing from Shimano in order to use the Microspline freehub. So far they have only allowed DT and i9 to develop their alternatives.
  • + 0
 @southoftheborder: The press releases seem cloudy on that. However, you may be correct. That said, Shimano knows better. Their headset market dried up after the Aheadset (Threadless) came out. They had excellent headsets, but refused to pay I believe it was Dia-Comp at the time the license fee. A spline, no matter the shape is a pretty common interface in bikes and in numerous other industries. Not sure how they can patent that but they may have.
  • + 2
 @bman33: well, e13 got off with their tri-lobed crank axle patent, so I wouldn't be surprised if Shimano got a patent for the Microspline design. Anyway, we will have to wait and see how things go.
  • + 2
 It is just free of charge if used for SRAM components. if shimano wants to use it for their own design, you have to pay for it.
  • + 1
 error, sorry
  • + 0
 @bman33: Sram has not invented anything, it's based on something already existing.... you seen the Shimano Capreo?
  • + 0
 @Svinyard You know the Shimano Capreo??? www.sheldonbrown.com/images/capreohub.jpg the Sram Xd is not almost the same? the Sram version of the Capreo............ the micro spline freehub will not be an update of the Capreo?
  • + 1
 @bummel42: From the press releases I read, I understood your application had to be approved by SRAM (if you intended to build freehubs/cassettes under the XD standard) but nothing about licensing fees. I guess the shame of capitulating against SRAM was enough for Shimano to spend a ton of money developing their own standard. It was either that, or committing Seppuku.
  • + 10
 Holy hell, have a little perspective. This is not a life threatening problem. Shimano had a recent factory fire that affected the higher end forging production, then problems producing some new technologies. You can buy XTR soon, or not. There are other bike parts you can buy. Keep breathing people. How much shit would Shimano get for prematurely releasing new XTR hubs that broke? More than SRAM got for releasing brakes that seize in heat, I’d bet.
Bike sales are down very significantly over the last years and I have little doubt Shimano and SRAM (and most bike mfrs) are sweating bigger, existential problems. If you want to wring your hands over something, think about that.
  • + 9
 I don’t understand all the Hate for SRAM Drivetrains. I’ve been running SRAM drivetrains since they came out with the XO derailleur many years ago. I currently run Eagle and have barely touched the barrel adjuster since I installed it. I’m currently shopping for a new bike and I have to say. Every single bike with a Shimano drivetrain has been disappointing. Don’t even get me started on their inconsistent feeling brakes. Admittedly Guides don’t have enough power but Codes are the Bomb. We have been Shimano free for a couple years now and we’ve had less drivetrain issues than ever. For all of you here that don’t think SRAM spends lots of time testing product. SRAM has been working on a Wireless Mtn drivetrain for over 5 years. Nothing’s perfect but I’ll take SRAM over Shimano any day.
  • + 1
 I like the Shimano 11sp with a SRAM XD Cassette. The double shift down and "clicky nature" of the shifting is kind of nice. A little less analog. But yea, I'm not leaving the X01 Eagle setup. Its too good once its setup just right (I think most people dont get it right on the b-screw and it gets grindy or laggy).
  • + 8
 I was seriously looking forward to the Scylence hubs. I wonder if they hit a snag with the patents or something. Having their factory and what not burn to the ground really sets things back. Good on Shimano for at least providing us an update before Spring really kicks in to gear. More companies should do this.
  • + 3
 Its overrated and needlessly heavy tho. Just buy an DTSwiss 240. Much lighter and they are really pretty quite. I never hear mine and my buddies with I9's are always commenting on how quiet it is. Its not silent but I don't hear it on the trail.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: This is actually pretty accurate statement. I'm running Onyx hubs which are as dead silent as it gets although at a hefty weight penalty. My buddy has the lesser DT 350 with 54 tooth ratchet and it's 98% of the way to dead silent at good bit less weight. I'm actually pretty surprised how close it is to the Onyx. The 240 would be the same only even lighter. Onyx does have quicker "infinite" engagement though.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: damn I thought the XTRs were super light? Like half that of the Onyx?
  • + 1
 I was wondering the same thing re patents. Their design was pretty similar to CK according to some, myself included. At the time of launch, people were saying that the CK ringdrive patent had expired and that it was pretty much open for everyone incl. Shimano.

After reading the interview more carefully, it does seem that the Scylence design will stay similar, however the hub will no longer be silent. In the original design, there was a spring that pulled apart the ring drive when coasting which was what made it silent. I'm really curious as to how/why that design has changed.
  • + 2
 @guylovesbike: American Classic had a similar concept back in the day. The driving plates would stay away unless you pedaled. And I suspect KHE would have something to say about the decoupled design, along with some other Japanese manufacturers, such as Gokiso.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: New Shimano hubs are actually about the same weight as DT 240s. Though apperently not so silent anymore
  • + 9
 While I’m at it, it might be a good idea for Shimano to take their damn Scylence hubs off their website since they aren’t making them. Enough with the bait and switch.
  • + 1
 It sounds like there will be a Scylence hub coming out in March with a revised design (FH-M9111), just not the 11-speed variant. Or am I misreading the statement?
  • + 7
 There’s no perspective from which this kind of delay and idiocy is acceptable. Shimano is supposed to be the market leader in cycling components. That’s clearly not the case any more. What we’re seeing is a company that no longer has it together and is starting to crumble.

They haven’t done a thing in the last few years that’s worth mentioning, other than the Scylence hub which isn’t happening now. Product quality and reliability is down. Product availability is pathetic, go ask your local shop if you don’t believe me. From the business end of things they’re a nightmare to deal with. Even when it comes to products with which they’ve historically had an enormous lead Shimano is blowing it. XT disc brakes being a perfect example of all of those issues.

From a consumer and rider standpoint, I’m done with Shimano. I don’t need a thing they sell, there are legitimate alternatives to every single one of their products. And those alternatives are actually available to me. Good riddance to bad rubbish, the rubbishy in this case being Shimano.
  • + 7
 I don't know. I'm lucky enough to have a bike with 11 speed XT drivetrain and another with 11 speed GX. Everything about XT has been better (other than hub driver notching); noise, shift quality, chain life, reliable shifting in wet/mud and cassette pricing.

Granted I'm not one to waste money on gold XX1 (I've got friends that do) or the Di2 XTR groups, I just want something I can install, adjust once and ride. For the everyman's groupsets, that's still firmly in Shimano's hands in my opinion.
  • + 3
 @yzedf: Lol what cassette are you using tho? I have XT as well as SRAM and SRAM Eagle (two boys and wife). I don't think I even notice much of a difference but that XT cassette is utter garbage performance wise on the larger cog jump. I do like the feel of the XT shift with the double down shift tho. I certainly wouldn't take it over my Eagle.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: 11 speed was my comparison, XT cassette vs GX cassette with same level derailleur and shifter. X01 11 speed does feel better, but the dollar value of a cassette that doesn't any longer isn't there.

That jump to 50t on Eagle feels like crap to me in a high torque situation. Only ridden that in GX level though.
  • + 4
 @Svinyard: XT shifter+derailleur with a SRAM 10-42 XD cassette is the perfect working man's drivetrain. Set and forget. Plus the 11speed GX cassette lasts forever and is lighter than the XT 11-46 trash.
  • + 2
 @yzedf: The Eagle setup is VERY sensitive to initial setup and has to be done under sag (for the b-screw) to avoid the 50t grind. Once its done tho, its done. I do all my own builds and its fantastic. I'm in 50t a lot unfortunately. The nice thing is, you don't have to use it as much, its a bail out.

I was also comparing the 11sp. 11sp SRAM GX is very similar to Shiman XT...except the Shimano 11-46 cassette is complete trash. That was my main highlight. You can't honestly say XT 11sp is awesome unless you are using a 3rd Party cassette with a 3rd party hub or just have a 42t or less range. Ergo, Shimano F'd that 11sp up as well. Thankfully SRAM stuff works with it really well. GX 10-42 cassette on Shimano drive train is great.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: no need for 46 where I live. 1x10 is fine, 1x11 is almost a luxury, 12 speed is pretty much ridiculous. My preferred 10 speed setup was XT shifter and derailleur with a sram cassette and a kmc sl chain. My terrain is all punchy quick up down stuff, very little cruising and almost no dedicated climb trails or fire roads to be seen. When I was riding down in NC/TN border, yeah I'll take 12 speed
  • + 1
 @skylerd: Agreed...but I will take it a step further. Would someone just make a f*cking 9 or 10 speed drivetrain with a 10-46/48 cassette. I don't care if the shifting is a bit clunky, I just want it to work when a f*cking twig hits it and moves things out of alignment 1/10th of a f*cking mm. More gears just makes things need to be more precise, and when you are riding bikes in the dirt/mud/rocks, that precision is a pain in my a*shole.

I just upgraded my dad's old 9 speed shit that was working perfectly to some of my leftover 11 speed stuff. His derailleur hanger was out of wack, his chain was stretched 50 miles long, but it still f*cking worked. Getting the 11 speed to function properly added 30 minutes to the procedure because I had to get out the D.A.G. to get it millimeter precise before the shit worked again.

f*ck XTR 12 speed, f*ck eagle 12 speed, helll, f*ck all things 11 speed. 9/10 speed with 10-46/48 is what I want.
  • + 9
 And this is exactly why I am pleased with SRAM Eagle. Works perfect and can deliver 12 speed all the way to the lowest levels!
  • + 6
 What a joke. This shows how far they have fallen. At least send out one of the top executives in Japan to make a public apology instead of a random guy who drives a van and gives out bro deals.

Nice try Shimano. Try to force everyone in to using your cranks and can’t even deliver them. So called “masters of metal” can’t deliver.

Everyone says SRAM releasss early and tests on consumers while Shimano just works. Shimano can’t even release stuff! Their two big innovations are failures.

If this was any other industry than bikes, Shimano would be toast. Instead they just coast of the past for another few years. Too bad Box is a pipe dream and TRP isn’t ready.
  • - 1
 whats wrong with shimano taking there time? most people arent even going to be ridding the xtr so whats the big deal? but would you rather wait for a product to work the first time or, in the case of sram get it sooner but have to warranty it a few times while they figure out how to get it right?
  • + 5
 @bike2850: Been a few years since the last SRAM fiasco. It’s a tired and outdated urban legend that SRAM releases stuff early and Shimano waits for it to be perfect. It’s 2019 - it’s just not true anymore. Shimano brakes have been awful this entire generation and despite multiple running changes they aren’t fixed. Shimano is late to market and can’t make it work.
  • + 6
 Hey Shimano..... how about you fix your patented SVBP (Shimano Variable Bite Point) of all of your brakes first, then when you've finally fixed that, then you can have your engineers develop something new that will never be seen.
  • - 3
 Uhhhh that got fixed like 3 years ago, an early run of XT M8000 brakes had issues with migrating bite points...
  • + 4
 @mnorris122: I guess I, a lot of my riding buddies, as well as many other riders littered across the forums who are riding the latest versions missed that memo.
  • + 2
 @DBone95: Yeah this is still a thing. I'd def buy some of these new XTR brakes tho assuming they are amazing. Shimano brakes have been great but I hate the light switch stuff on XT/XTR and appreciate how they fixed it in the new XTR. I bet its all good brake wise.
  • + 2
 So much this... I am no bike mechanic but I know now how to bleed my rear brake like a pro.. I am sure.. Guess should thank Shimano for the opportunity to learn new thing ????
  • + 6
 I have the whole groupset apart from the cranks which aren't due till the end of August (the day I return from this years Alps trip - bloody typical!) and the 203mm rotor for the front brake (next week apparently). I'm using DT hubs. It is worth the wait, shifting is amazing and the four pot brakes are the best feeling brakes I've ever used.
  • + 5
 “we don’t want to force people into that situation because we don’t have a crank to sell them”.... and yet that’s exactly what you are doing!

Been sitting on a brand new drivetrain for months now,was told the cranks would be available before Christmas, then January and the lastest Ive heard from my shop was APRIL.With my new frame finally arriving next week, I cant wait any longer...Im now forced to sell the drivetrain ( most likely at a lost ????) because I cant buy a compatible crankset...this is completely dumb.

This issue was so poorly handled and Its screwing up your customers across the board big time.Based on that little marketing pr, Shimano clearly dont give a shit about their customers.As it occurred to you that people are
loosing money on this?How is that possible that no one at Shimano offered a solution at this point ?It would have been easy to adress the situation months ago .You could have subcontracted small manufacturers such as wolftooth or Absolute Black to produce compatible chainrings for other cranksets like RaceFace or Ethirteen, or better yet, work with other crankset manufacturers to remedy this shit show and help people getting into the new xtr drivetrain.

You guys dropped the ball and youre letting the customer foot the bill for your mistake.

NEVER AGAIN SHIMANO,the product may be good but I will never ever put my trust into your brand...
  • + 4
 You can run a Sram chain on them with any crank you like.
  • + 3
 @niconj: you clearly didnt read the article...running a different will cause premature wear of the cassette and you’ll loose hyperglide shifting performance.
  • + 1
 Mismanagement. Needless new standards and they can't even bring it to market. For goodness sakes they can't even get out an ALUMINUM CRANK on time???
  • + 3
 It seems like you can just run a different chainring on whatever crankset you want. MTBR postings seem to indicate most (but not all) of the narrow/wide 11 spd chainrings will work, only real issue is that the Shimano master link rides up but tht it wears in after a while or weirdly enough you can use an Eagle master link and it will work. It doesn't seem like you have to be completely dead in the water just because of the chainring. Go to the Shimano forum on MTBR and read for yourself, I don't have any direct experience as I am waiting until they are officially available.
  • - 1
 @preston67:Seen that tread and many others actually, Absolutely Black are only offering chanrings for OLD Shimano style cranksets , none for RaceFace or others... Personally I have no desire to purchased a discontinued product to use witb my brand new drivetrain... As for using a Sram master link I find it highly unlikely it would resolve the issue.The entire chain as the same links spacing and I fail to understand how replacing ONE link would magically make every other links work perfectly.
  • + 0
 @tuumbaq: The article says nothing about premature wear on the cassette.
  • + 1
 @Saether: You’re not too good at reading are you ?

“ On others, it might vibrate while pedaling or wear out extremely quickly“

In my book I call that premature wear but perhaps I should have used a simpler vocabulary: it wears out f*cking quick...Is that better ?
  • + 1
 So you're mad at Shimano that you knowingly bought an incomplete drivetrain before it had been properly released for retail sale? Sell it off and get your xx1 and bad mouth them for the next year like everyone else that makes a mistake like that.
  • + 0
 @tuumbaq: Premature wear on the chain and chainring. Not the cassette.
  • + 4
 @yzedf: haaaa the good old internet warrior who thinks hes smarter...lol

NO, I did not buy a an incomplete drivetrain knowing it might end up where I am now.....We’re talking about Shimano here, not some small aftermarket custom maker...At first Shimano had said the cranks would be available before Christmas, so I figured I could wait a few weeks to get the cranks knowing I wouldn’t get the bike until February anyway.Then is was January, then February and last time I was told April.We are finding out just NOW that they are having difficulties making these , wellllll after they officialy released the product and several months after their original delivery dates. (these kinda of manifacturing issues are normally taken care of BEFORE releasing new product btw ) .What prevented them to inform their customers about the issues? Why didnt they simply tell they wouldn’t be able to meet their delivery dates and chosen to keep the truth from us?They essentially lied about the delivery dates hoping for what?That people wouldn’t notice they are several months behind without any explanation??

Im sorry but thats not something youd normally expect from an industry leader.You telling me you saw that one coming? Lol, please your ENTIRE country didnt even see that clown you call your president would win the election ... lol, yeah, you’re sooooo clever.

When was the last time you saw any other manufacturers come up with an article like the one above? This is not normal behaviour, its completely backwards and there’s cleary something wrong at Shimano
  • - 2
 @tuumbaq: you did but an incomplete setup. Shimano is notorious for dragging their feet, it's how sram stays in business.

You mean like the time that the president of Honda apologized to the public for the Civic and they brought out a replacement ahead of schedule? Or last week when Subaru stopped production of 2 cars because of steering issues, months after production had began of that particular setup?
  • + 3
 @tuumbaq: Half of us voted for Trump. You're doing fine ranting about Shimano, Pinkbike is plenty fun and dramatic without dragging politics into things.
  • + 4
 @preston67:
*Half of the the people who showed up to vote voted for Trump

Smile
  • + 1
 @jpcars10s: a lot less than half. The power of the electoral college.
  • + 2
 Ohh, you're lucky people, the cream of the country is governing here: basque fascists (aka skull measurers, activitity carried out at night in cemeteries in order to prove their supremacy), terrorist motherf*ckers, catalan racists, radical commies, idiotic feminists and the boss (or vassal) of them all: a retarded socialist that does not get off the plane.
Much of the country is still waiting to vote and tell this garbage to f*ck off.
  • + 1
 Canyon is running Race Face Next SL G5 on their XTR equipped bikes. They don't have any delivery date though. Perhaps that could be a faster solution or a G4 crank with a compatible chainring?
  • + 5
 I work for a big corporation. This happens all the time. AT LEAST they are not putting untested crap out into the market. If you are old enough you will remember the run of shoes that the soles peeled off - typically during races in the early 90ies and the batch of SPD cleats that had release tabs that sheared off - typically at the first tricky dismount in the late 80ies. Also I used to walk 10 miles to school in blizzards with no gore-tex or Iphone. Bah Humbug!
  • + 1
 Shimano has had their share of spectacular failures. Why any one waits for Shimano to get its shit together is beyond me. They are so far off the back of Sram they are almost irrelevant. The rear hub that can fit a 10t cog? Its been 7 years since Sram released XDriver and Shimano still haven't got it done because they have to reinvent the wheel and cant get it to work.

Couldn't just re do the existing free hub body. Yet another example of biting off more than they can chew in a timely fashion. They cant even claim we may be slower to market than Sram but our stuff works. Only it doesnt this time and its not the first time.

This new XTR is a testament to how far detached Shimano is from reality. At a time when cyclists are really fed up with new standards every year Shimano brings us yet more with a new crank, chain ring and chain for the sake of making 50 year old technology shift .00001% smoother. does any one care? Did anyone ask for that? No.

We did ask for wide ratio 10 speed that Shimano reluctantly provided 3 years late and 6 to 8 teeth short of the requirement... at the Deore level. Great job.

While Shimano continues to make more propietary standards and increasing the skews they have to make and retailers have to stock all of their competitors are delivering on time AND reducing the number of skews OEM and retailers have to buy and manage. Lack of agility, the inability to keep up with the market and continuing to add new standards while others reduce and simplify may not kill shimano but it is going to hurt them. I'm looking forward to that.
  • + 5
 so much for "shimano are always releasing refined stuff contrary to sram" like a lot of people are stating in comment sections. 2 years late to sram's 12 speed drivetrain and still not available. shimano dropped the ball big time IMO.
  • + 5
 I guinea pigged the XTR 12 speed drivetrain sourced from Europe on a Yeti SB 130 I built in December. setup . XTR medium cage, xtr shifter, XTR 10-45 cassette, and finally XTR Chain.... wish I had waited. Its been a challenge but I am getting close to how it should work. I did use E13 cranks with a 12 speed E13 guidering and DT Swiss 240 hub with Micro spline. Set up has been trial and error and after 6 weeks of trying I finally have one ride where it worked with out skipping, grinding, and I basically forgot I was riding XTR. KMC Chain didn't work, SRAM was ok but not perfect, Finally found the new XTR chain which was an improvement but has still taken more tuning that it should. As a side note Shimano did update all their tech documents in December and seemed to post them mid January with revised setup instructions. After 6 weeks on xtr drive-train my opinion is they rolled it out too soon and I wish I had gone with Sram.
  • + 1
 Is there really skipping on that new 10-45 cassette???
That shouldn't be.
Not even the cheap Shimano cassettes do that.
I read somewhere that the new XTR chain only works in one direction.
Have you tried to put the chain the other way around?
  • + 1
 Well 9 speed chains who’re fine ,the 10 not bad ,the eleven worse cause that stupid quick link connector,the 12 ....,can you guess ,I think it’s all because of the quick links
  • + 4
 The thing that really kills me is that for 20+ years SRAM has used the standard Shimano spline for 8-11 speed cassettes that allowed for 11 teeth. SRAM then develops a new standard to allow for 10 tooth cassettes years ago. Instead of using that already developed standard Shimano has to create a new cassette standard to accommodate 10 tooth cassettes. Now I won't be able to re-use wheels if I want to swap drive trains. Really??? Please spend your time innovating on shifting instead of making life more difficult for riders. What is the benefit?
  • + 5
 Personally, I jumped ship for the XD driver years ago *because* Shimano stuck with their ancestral freehub. In a 1x drivetrain, that 10T top is a huge deal, which is why SRAM did it.

Shimano are just trying to carry on pretending that no one else can invent stuff and get hub sales back. Especially given the noises they made about back-compatibility when XD launched, years ago, I can’t help feeling this will bite them.
  • + 7
 ffs. All I wanted was the silent hubs and the 11 spd stuff. Don't give a stuff about the rest Shove 12 spd up yer.....
  • + 7
 Onyx Racing hub. You'll love it. Honestly not sure why I hadn't purchased one years ago.
  • - 1
 @sunringlerider:
Price is crazy high to the UK and it's to heavy for something that expensive.
I'm praying hope see sense a do a silent one
  • + 2
 @markg1150: Hoping Box does something since they purchased Stealth from Precision Components.
  • + 2
 @sunringlerider: onyx racing hub in the UK is massively more expensive than xtr would be! Plus mass. Lots of heft in an onyx hub
  • + 2
 11sp Shimano Drive Train with SRAM 10-42 is excellent and no wait required. DT Swiss 240/350 are very quiet (you won't hear them on the trail) but not silent if Onyx is too expensive. Easy fix.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard:
Na 240s are still to loud. I'm sensitive to noise. I can hear them a mile away. Does my nut in.
  • + 1
 @markg1150: Gotcha. Is there really no other hub maker doing silent hubs? Its just Onyx? (used to be Shimano too)
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: no one ever mentions Project321....seems like another good option
  • + 1
 Onyx. Not only will you get a silent hub you'll also get instant engagement with a belt drive like feel due to the sprag clutch design.After riding one for 2 years, when I get on a bike without an Onyx the first thing I notice is the feel of delayed harsh engagement.
  • + 7
 The quiet hubs were the only thing really pulling my interest back to Shimano. Hopefully they’ll pull through eventually.
  • + 4
 Please shimano ,make the 11 speed cassete with the last 37/42/46 and the rest never mind cause you have already the best parts for the price,but .....the rear pulleys should last longer the XTR ones cause the rest of them are crap and start building wheels like the ones you did on the xt something the ones that had white stripes and tubeless,and you have a winner ,I still have a 9 speed xtr m960 group no dual shift/brake ,and that thing shifts gears like a video game it’s amazing after all these years ,good luck
  • + 3
 Couldn't agree more. The 37 to 46 tooth jump on XT and SLX 11spd seems likes it's almost there to dissuade you from buying it.
  • + 3
 Yeah that 11sp cassette was a joke...and very late to the party too. They just throw on a new top gear and left everything else the same to say "hey we have wide range". SRAM 10-42 has same range and works with XD hub. Just use that.
  • + 6
 @woofer2609: Sunrace even make a 10spd cassette with a 40 to 46 tooth jump. If you can do that with a 10spd spread, there's absolutely no excuse for a 37 to 46 jump on 11spd.
  • + 1
 @mammal: My wife has the Sunrace. It's OK. a bit of weird chain rub when in the 42. Shifts well enough with the XT long cage on it. I'd like to see Shimano make a proper wide range 10 speed. I'm sure their shift ramps are better designed than the SunRace. And it probably wouldn't weigh a ton either!
  • + 3
 @Poulsbojohnny: I can't tell the difference between sunrace and XT 11 speed cassettes, but I do love having 36/40/46 climbing gears.
  • + 1
 @Poulsbojohnny: Except that will never happen because of the limited amount of people on 10spd, now and in the future. Sunrace likes giving people the option to use up their current 10spd gear (that's me!!), but shimano wants people to invest in their current gear. I bet there's a reason they make a lack-luster ratio.
Does your wife run the 46 or 42? With the 42, you should just need to max out the B-tension, but I wouldn't know for sure because I ran the One-Up RADr cage when I ran the SR 42 cassette. With the 46t cassette, it's a whole different ballgame, requiring an extra hanger link (included) to extend the derailleur low enough to clear the 46. Shifts quite well though.
  • + 3
 @oneheckler
FYI, the 46T 11spd sunrace cassette shifts very well with the SLX 11spd long cage derailleur, and has a 40-46T jump at the end, which is quite palatable.
  • + 1
 @mammal: Yeah they did that cassette right enough. They even have a lightweight version of it too iirc.
  • + 1
 @mammal: Shimano makes a proper wide ratio cassette, the Deore HG-500 10speed 11-42t. It's 430grams and works with regular Shimano derailleurs. Pair this with a 28t front and you have an easier (lower) gear inch number than a 32t front/46t rear.
This cassette is actually lighter than an XT 11spd 11-42.
  • + 1
 @mammal: I I’m riding it already for the past 2 years One for each year ,they are not bad ,they do not last very long (6000km),they have small problems with some chains because of the quick link release in the small sprockets and some times in the 36 some rubbing,I already used the shimano 11/42 with a 32 chainring and also the 11/46 with a 34 chainring,they shift better and last a little bit more ,but that jump from 37 to 46 it’s a shame cause that 40 from sunrace it’s like that gear that you just love in most of the climbs not to heavy and not to light at least for me , and in the winter you really miss that 40 on the XT ,but that just me
  • + 1
 @woofer2609: Yeah, I'm not a fan of the 28T ring, so I was looking for an 11-46 cassette. 30Tx11 is as low as I want to go, and I'm definitely not overly concerned about weight. I'm sure the 28x11-42 works great though, to each their own.
  • + 1
 @oneheckler: I hear you on the 37-46 jump, that's just wrong, especially from a company like shimano. Thanks for the heads up about wear, as I'm running two sunrace cassettes, hardtail and dually. I do a couple/few chain replacements per cassette, so I'll see how it goes. Haven't noticed any issues with interference on the quick link.
  • + 3
 yeah at this point wgaf. they were late to the game with 12 speed and then they're a year late on top of that, plus another 6 months to really hit the markets in another month on top of the fact that they're interiming some of the key points of the system.

ended up going with yet another xo1 group set waiting for this to hit market.

#unimpressed.
  • + 2
 Plus they spent years telling everyone that 2 x was better...
  • + 2
 Shimano better hurry, Eagle wireless 12 speed drops next month...
  • + 3
 Great. So whst we have here is a series of new crank chainring and chain standards that dont work with anything else. You cant sub in a different chain and, another silent hub doesnt work andcwont be delivered and of course its 2 going on 3 years behind Sram... Still. Good job Shimano keep up the good work! Another year to let your competitors whittle away your market share. One of these years youre going to figure out no one cares about your system approach, excuses and limitation. OEM customers love having their production and delivery schedules delayed because you cant get your shit together in a timely fashion. I wonder why anyone cares there are so many other options now XTR isnt a game changer any more. It because your development time lines is yesterdays news.
  • + 3
 Man, lots of hate here for a simple product delay, a product that most of us won't even shell out the cash for or actually need until that March timeframe. I think it's perfectly understandable for them to hold back the whole line if it is not going to perform well, and production issues do happen. Sounds like they did make some good moves to recover. I like nice stuff and am lucky enough to be able to afford it, but I still don't typically go higher than XT or X1, and I'm even pleased with the current GX I am running. The price jump to XTR/XX1 is just not worth it to me -- I'd break those just as easy as I'd break an SLX or GX. I'm not a stickler for either SRAM or Shimano, although I do like the Eagle I am running now for the great granny gear. I find Shimano to be quiet and smooth, SRAM to be sturdy and a bit louder, but not a huge difference between the 2. Heck, I had a Shimano cassette, SRAM chain and derailleur, and RaceFace chainring on my fat bike and it worked beautifully.
  • + 3
 I’m running the group with Race Face chain ring, GX Eagle cassette and chain, 9100 SGS new derailleur and shifter. Works perfect! Don’t waste your time waiting for a Microspline freehub body and Shimano chainring. Brakes/shifter/dropper are awesome!
  • + 1
 Ha, this is pretty interesting. Shimano RD and Shifter works with all that other stuff?
  • + 1
 Oh ya, shifts beautifully. Tired of waiting for other aftermarket to get Microspline freehubs out. I have Next R wheels and there’s no sign of race face coming out with freehub...
  • + 3
 That wide range 11 speed with the short cage derailleur sounds sooooo good to me. Less weight, more clearance, a bit less shifting, and can run a smaller front chain ring for better ground clearance and more anti-squat. Just sounds like it's full of win. Heck it would even fit in to my homemade bike stand better.
  • + 3
 " I think we’re going to miss the 11 speed cassette in North America – we were surprised by the positive feedback that it got and expected it to slowly gain popularity."

I think the positive feedback it was getting was from people (me) thinking that this meant a 10-45T 11 speed hub that sat on the new freehub, but worked with our current 11 speed shifters and derailleurs.

Eventually I found out that the 11 speed cassette was only going to work with the new XTR shifter and derailleur, just with the shifter set to the "11" setting.

All I want is a light 11 speed (spaced for M7000 SLX and M8000 XT) cassette that fits on the new microspline freehub so that I can get wider range without having to re-purchase half of my drivetrain components!
  • + 3
 Can't you just use a XD hub with a SRAM GX/X01 cassette or e13 9-46? You won't need new hubs. Heck or just go Eagle GX for the price of that Sylence hub. Why not? Shimano clearly doesn't even make a decent XT 11sp cassette today with existing hub.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: sorry, typo, i meant new cassette, not new hub in that 2nd paragraph.

the microspline DT Swiss freehubs are already available, so i wanted to go in that direction, but since there are no compatible cassettes yet, yeah i may just go with an XD freehub and SRAM cassette instead.

I figured going with microspline would future-proof me a bit, but with how slowly shimano is moving, i guess XD will be around a long time before SRAM feels the need to one-up shimano
  • + 6
 Theft of intellectual property and technology takes time to perfect. Just be patient.
  • + 6
 This is exactly why I'm sticking with my unicycle and friction shifters.
  • + 5
 Job to be done: 12 speed better than Sram
Job done: A hub and crankset nobody wanted
  • + 2
 And this really won the product of the year??? Shimano looks like a used car salesman that overstated and is now panicking to meet demand. Pretty pathetic if you ask me, Eagle works great and has been available for the past two years without production issues.
  • + 17
 Nope, it didn't win Product of the Year, at least not on Pinkbike.
  • + 10
 @mikekazimer: Ah, nominated...
  • + 0
 We you heard what the issues were pretty up front and not to mention the fire in the production facility in Japan. All companies make mistakes. Sram has had plenty since they started. Shimano has a proven track record and they just put their issues out in front of everyone to see on Pinkbike. Call it pathetic if you will, but Shimano will survive just fine and once everything hits, those looking for a 12-speed alternative to SRAM will be rewarded.
  • + 7
 @bman33: You got to wonder what's going on with Shimano lately though, they used to be the Gold standard, but formerly being great doesn't make you great in the future.
  • + 2
 I'll keep on plugging away on my 11sp xt mech and xtr shifter, this set up in 12sp will doubtless be the next one for me and luckily my current one would survive a nuclear strike so teething issues with xtr won't worry me given how sorted the system will be when it trickles down to xt. I'll stay with shimano because I've never been an early adopter and therfore have always reaped the benefits of other people guinea-pigging xtr. Thanks if that's you
  • + 4
 better hurry, because the kind of people who are buying this now that CRC can't sell to NA have a fire burning in their wallet that might start to spread quickly!
  • + 2
 there's always germany Smile
  • + 2
 I would really like to know what the issue with the crank is and if this is only for the Race and not the Enduro crank I have on my bike. As far as I know, there were two different cranks, the 9100 and the 9120. I have the latter and found Absolute Black who manufactured a chainring that fits.

Is it safe to use the 9120 cranks I have on a Enduro bike?
  • + 1
 I‘m sending back the 4pot XTR though. The bite point just isn‘t consistent in the cold (just like with any other servowave brake that came out the last couple of years).
  • + 1
 @niconj: Really? I thought perhaps the brakes would be the holygrail of brakes. Shimano reliability, a bit more power and with enough modulation to be nice to use.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: They are nice to use when it‘s over 0 degrees. I recently went down a rough enduro trail and it was about -7 after pulling the brake lever two or three times rapidly, the bitpoint went out a lot and I had about 1cm until it was reached.

I got the Trickstuff Direttissima already here and once that is mounted, I‘ll send in the XTRs to have Paul Lange to have a look at it.
  • + 0
 @niconj: your brake probably need a professional bleed then this problem should be solved. sounds like air got stuck in your calipers. did it happen on your rear brake?
  • + 1
 @MTBert: This is a very common problem on Shimano brakes. They are bled perfectly and this problem only happens in the cold. When it's warm, the brake isn't affected. In our forum in Germany some engineers have already found out why this happens but my English doesn't suffice to be able to explain it here. Something with a higher viscosity of the oil when it gets colder and some tiny wholes... I dunno. What I do know is that this happened to all my Shimano brakes (servowave) more or less.
  • + 0
 @niconj: never happened to one of my shimano brakes (saint, xt 785&8000, xtr 9020&9120) and i use them all year with temps down to - 10°..
All the need is a good gravity bleed and they`ll work in all conditions flawlessly.
  • + 1
 @MTBert: You speak German? It's NOT the brake bleed that's the problem here.

www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/druckpunktwandern-shimano-xt-m8000.771314
  • + 2
 @MTBert: because you never had an issue means it is out of the question haha. I did have problems with MTB products most other people never heard of.
I just use Bionol only for brake's and that was the most significant improvement.
  • + 2
 @Serpentras: I do now as well in my Direttissima. Big Grin
  • + 1
 @niconj: yeah my Direttissima is also working with it but Magura and Shimano aswell.
I also have a old Deore who is working with DOT haha.
  • + 2
 I have always used XT and XTR, Shimano has always been rock solid for me. But where are they? They are missing from most new MTB's nowadays and that is a shame. I just don't get how they could allow themselves to fall so far. It's looking like my next bike will have a SRAM drivetrain and I'm probably going to love it.
  • + 1
 Shimano continues to completely BLOW IT on mtb drivetrain. I tried to swap after getting mad at a few X1 level SRAM mechs losing their clutch, but my Shimano lasted 2 months as well. Different was when the Shimano clutch fails, the cage jams. Ride ruined.
  • + 1
 Give me that 11spd cassette, been waiting for that for a long time. I don't need more gears, I just want a better ratio than sram 11spd and keep the good shifting. I could even go with a 10 spd 10-46 especially if that means more durable But hey they would sell less.....
  • + 3
 I can’t tell you available in March means Jack Shiat. Trying to get Shimano parts in season is joke with Shimano Canada. XTR and Shimano are so 10 years ago.
  • + 2
 Wonder if Shimano is more road focused these days, their groupsets are pretty new on the road side also and they dominate compared to SRAM on factory builds...seems like they don't give a shit about mtb anymore
  • + 3
 Sorry but Shimano are well behind Sram in both gearing and brakes. They have been playing catch up for years. I used to swear by Shimano until and 4 years ago.
  • + 1
 What ever happened to making a commitment and delivering on it? I have been, and still am, a huge supporter of Shimano products but this product roll out has been a huge failure. For a product that was many years in its development to be a year behind in its delivery is a disgrace at best. More accurately it is absolute incompetence. The entire marketing and PR group needs to be fired and go back to f*cking up your order at Taco Bell.
  • + 1
 Will the cranks + chainring + chain work with my existing SRAM 11-speed cassette/SRAM derailuer/Shifter?
I assume it's going to come down to if the chain fits on the cassette cogs + derailleur jockey wheels properly.
Trying to avoid swapping out cassette/hub on existing wheel, but want the new alum cranks.
  • + 4
 Thank you Sram, and I cant remember the last time I saw a Shimano drivetrain out on the trails too #shitshow
  • + 1
 Nick Murdick sounds like a politician. Shimano is so arrogant and it reflects in their products and distributors as well. They, like SRAM with their ever more expensive high end groupsets might not say it but they are looking over their shoulder. They have left a huge gap where they should have released better priced products first with the latest tech.

I have four - yes four MTB groupsets that are equal to the big S brands , two are 11 speed going to 12 speed this year and two are already 12 speed. All of them together are cheaper the XT/XTR/GX/X01 I will not buy from either of the big S brands ever again.
  • + 4
 Shimano's nail in the coffin. New 12spd XT will come when? 2021? SLX in 2023?
  • + 3
 na, the 11spd xt is value and performance and fine for the vast majority of riders, and sram shifters still suck
  • + 4
 Folks over at SRAM must be sleeping easy.
  • + 1
 @flipfantasia: Just get a SRAM GX 11sp 10-42, its superior in what matters. It has the same range as shimano's 11-46 which is trash because of the ridiculous 37 to 46 jump. No way you want that over SRAM's offering.
  • + 5
 @Svinyard: actually I've ran the shimano 11-46 on two bikes, and don't mind the jump, I also am into tough steep climbs and the 46 is basically the granny so, no complaints here. Sure it's a bit heavy, but functionally it's been flawless for 2 seasons on each bike.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: props for speaking truth.
  • + 6
 @flipfantasia: Are higher end SRAM shifters still 1 click down the cassette? Rode an NX set up the other day and it was terrible. XT shifters for life, or until someone does better.
  • + 2
 @JesseE: SRAM GX or X1 would be a closer comparison to XT. You really can't compare XT to NX.
  • + 2
 @JesseE: they are, my new bike has GX and it works, but I really miss the action and functionality of the XT shifters, two way/dual release is awesome
  • + 2
 @flipfantasia: I'll give you the Shimano shifters feel better.

Just you wait and the family life start cutting in more and more on the riding and even you will need that sweet sweet 50t bailout.

From a product manager perspective I bet more and more of them are having a tough time trying to spec 11spd , this is where it's going to kill Shimano. Once someone buys a bike spec'd with an XD driver they are just going to stick with it.
  • + 1
 @JesseE:

My X01 11sp shifter will allow a thumb full of downshift in one go, you can go from top to bottom of the cassette in three shifts if you really want to.

Like all SRAM it’s strictly thumb push, but I’ve never got the love for Shimano pull-trigger. Apart from anything else, the way I like to run my controls, getting a finger to the shifter to pull is problematic due to the brake lever anyway.
  • + 1
 @shirk-007: new bike has eagle, only ridden it a few times and already grazing rocks and other objects....also miss the shadow plus of shimano, sram der's are chuuuunky
  • + 2
 @flipfantasia: Why can't SRAM have the double down? Is that a Shimano patent or something? It'd be cool. I like the Shimano "clicky" feel most of the time but its a little less analog and I find myself jumping further than I want sometimes...but its not my main bike that has it so I'm guessing I'd just need to get used to it.
  • + 1
 Canyon Lux appears to be one of those models sitting in warehouses... 9.0 stalled out for months and I see the crankset in their picture is somewhat hilariously blacked-out and no information on crankset spec other than “34 tooth”
  • + 1
 I actually got excite about the Black crank.. Mmmmm stealth.. But no 165mm!! Why the hell not! FAIL SHIMANO. In fact FAIL to so may crank manufacturers for not putting out a good Enduro (not DH) strength 165mm crank. (I'm ignoring XTs because I'm a self confessed carbon/XTR whore)
  • + 1
 Well, it’s -20 degrees outside so I started reading the comments on Pinkbike. Lol

I would have had time for a big bike ride instead of reading those comments. Wink

XT brakes check: works
SRAM GX check: works
Rocky Mountain Altitude bike check: works

Go for a ride...
  • + 1
 Shit or get off the Pot Shimano.



Getting to the point where seeing Shimano bits out on the trails is kind like an extra special rarity piece on someones bike that everyone goes "holy I haven't seen one of those in a long time!" like stems with 6 bolts holding your 25.4 bar on.
  • + 2
 i think they still have the best 1x11 drivetrain with xt. but eagle has just taken over the market and good on sram for that but its not needed just popular.
  • + 1
 @bike2850: Why does this come up? The XT 11-46 cassette is absolutely one of the worst cassettes on the market. Its a joke. Now if you use a 11sp SRAM GX/X01 Cassette with it instead (or a small range cassette)...then yeah, its very nice but that's not a Shimano drive train.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: I like it. Never had a probem with the cassette. Shifting is fast and reliable, range is good enough and I can actually afford it.
  • + 1
 @bike2850: SRAM is killing it on the gravel and cyclo cross market as well. Even though Shimano have a clutch RD for gravel and CX now their pro contracts for Shimano stipulate you must run 2x. There have been several contracts leaked to the press in Europe. What a gas.
  • + 2
 @Kiwi19: that’s lame that they require 2x I had no clue about that. I guess they just want to justify producing them still. I bet sram did the same thing with eagle, making most ride it, which is why it’s gotten so much traction. Even thought some would benefit from 1x11.
  • + 1
 Can’t wait til the 12spd XT drops. Throwing the Shimano shifter + eagle cassette + eagle derailleur will be the best of both worlds. You have Shimano double up-shifts and SRAMs little push button lock for when you need to take your wheel off.
  • + 3
 So when it was released, lots of people said YAY for nice new silent hubs and wide range 1x11!... oh wait, that's what Shimano has now cut?!
  • + 2
 Never wanted a 12 speed anyways... was hoping to frankenstein a 9100 xtr cassette as 11 speed to work with di2 and maybe new chain and crankset/ring... would maybe have required old pulley wheels... oh well
  • + 1
 Rotor's 13 speed should be shipping soon too...
  • + 5
 Yeah but WHY are they canning the hub? There wasn't any explanation.
  • + 2
 Most likely a patent issues I suspect.
  • + 1
 Probably found it brakes off teeth when the two ratchets come together.
  • + 1
 It is a bit too easy to bash Shimano for failing to deliver on time. It is impressive what they manage to do and I applaud them for acknowledging that their latest product isn't up to their standards and they're doing all they can to fix it. I guess the nomenclature of Shimano is pretty clear. If you want top performance and reliabilty, get XT (and yeah I realize people complain about their brakes). If you want bleeding edge competitive stuff at the expense of reliability, get XTR. Obviously sponsored athletes are riding even less proven pre-pre-preproduction stuff. Either way, manufacturers who spec these components on their bikes are well aware of this too which is why many stick with 2018 XTR for their 2019 bikes. Those who plan to spec 2019 XTR on their bikes know they are taking chances. A component may arrive late, a component could be scrapped altogether.

Personally I'm not one for XTR stuff. Simply because I don't care about the latest, lightest or blingest. I want reliability and durability (which includes the availability of spares and repair options) and I'm actually willing to pay more for that. But I understood the XTR rear hub would use steel clutch plates whereas the lower end models would most likely have them in aluminium to save on machining costs. I'd expect those to wear quicker so that would be a reason to go for the XTR rear hub. Now reading they claim that only the bearings in the XTR hubs are going to be from steel (so apparently not the clutch plates) they got a whole lot less interesting for me. Yeah indeed the cup and cone bearings never bothered me. Bummer though that they put the new 11 speed hub on hold. Of course I prefer the shortest cage rear mech possible but the wider flange spacing of 11 speed hub sounded interesting too. Hopefully they'll do this for the lower end models in the coming years.
  • + 1
 except that they haven't managed to do it yet lol.
  • + 2
 Mike, you should ask him why Shimano N.A. will not warranty XTR products (5 years) if a customer bought them online from Europe. Shitty customer service from one the biggest companies in the bike industry.
  • + 3
 I’m running the previous generation XTR on two bikes, purchased on close-out price. Pretty stoked on the previous gen!
  • + 1
 Will there be a recall on existing cranks and hubs? I know people who have the cranks and the hubs are in stock at most retailers, so I assume some already have them on their bikes?!
  • + 2
 they say the hub "gives us a tight 7 degree free play angle".. 7 degrees is shit, that is not a fast engagement at all and i dont see how they can think it is
  • + 4
 At least Shimano waits to get it right.
  • + 3
 Not exactly, they waited, put it on the market, couldn't produce it, withdrew it and will re-release it in March...
  • + 0
 We're big SRAM fans, but the new XTR is pretty incredible to ride (we've been out on the press/test bike). We're glad it's coming to market (eventually) and going give riders another top-of-the-line option and keep SRAM pushing forward.

Industry friends working of developing compatible chainrings for their brands tell us they have been presented with a challenge - typical narrow/wide (SRAMish) chainrings aren't working well in terms of performance or component life. Unfortunately, or fortunately (since the bar will be raised), right now this group really needs the Shimano crank/chainring.
  • + 1
 What's the objective differences that you liked best? I've seen the reviews and stuff but its hard to read between the marketing lines on the big differences between Eagle and XTR. I'm glad Shimano has done it for the competitive reasons as much as I dislike their Troll-out of the product. I'd ride it in a heart beat if it didn't cost so much to try.
  • + 1
 Jaja, a chain transmission, a thing that was invented a century ago or more and this industry claim to perfect. Another joke to scam all of us and to put their hands in our wallets. C'mon wake up people.
  • + 2
 I'd have to assume all that read these posts have high-end bikes with drivetrains that work perfectly fine. Just get out and ride!
  • + 2
 First world problems. If Shimano thinks that they're not ready they don't release unproven products into market. Simple as that.
  • + 3
 Check out this silent rear coaster that will not be released. Makes call to I9.
  • + 2
 Shimano: what other hub choices exactly do we have???? Runors of dt swiss? Help us help you, release the driveshell rights to some other respectable brands.
  • + 2
 I can't believe my eyes… are these vicious negative comments directed at... Shimano?! Whatever next? Long-travel, coil, steel, and 26" is still cool, right? Razz
  • + 2
 So what they’re telling is, that it’s going to be late, but, when it does finally get it’s realise, we’ll now be able to hear it coming.
  • + 2
 They should have dropped this news release at about 3:30PM this coming Sunday so it would get buried in the Super Bowl coverage.
  • + 2
 I got a 1x11 drivetrain from Box Components and they are pretty sweet and much cheaper than this.
  • + 1
 bad news from Shimano. Within the next 6 days, they will get the final headshot by SRAM. Then the guys from Schweinfurt will show how to develop and to launch a product.
  • + 1
 I remember Shimano offered a silent free hub years ago (STX-RC?) that had issues and was pretty quickly dropped. Deja vu all over again?
  • + 2
 The infamous silent clutch! It was featured on Deore/STX-RC/Deore XT hubs. They couldn't stand the internal pressure from the sprag clutch and their shells cracked. But boy, they instant engagement and silent actuation were golden.
  • + 3
 Shimano=Fishing equipment.
  • + 1
 $10k Sworks XTR comes with a KMC chain. Shimano peaked my interest but has lost me forever now. Worst product releases in the industry.
  • + 1
 Been on shimano brakes for years and on the new XTR for a few months now. They feel better than ever and totally worth the wait!
  • + 2
 Got me all excited to buy those hubs, then canceled them. Seems like a poor sales strategy.
  • + 1
 Bunch of knuckleheads! I'd buy a Pinion gearbox bike before I would sign up as a Guinea Pig for this stupid, mix-matched crap!!
  • + 1
 I waited months and months extra to get my SRAM 1 x 12 Eagle, so this is nothing new for any biker manufacturer or parts supplier.
  • + 1
 I get it, Shimano has to compete with the market but in hindsight, I dig my XTR groupo now and have zero plans to buy another one till my derailuer kisses a rock.
  • + 1
 Odd that there was such a demand for the 11speed stuff mentioned. Could 11 truly be enough gears? Have we reached saturation?
  • + 1
 Pretty sure we were getting up and down mountains ok with 11 speed...but, getting spun out on the high-speed flat stuff lil bit
  • + 3
 Well this sucks Frown not that I really care tho. Sram for the win lol
  • + 1
 On the bright side, the new XTR pedals are available and are pretty nice! That said, I've had two pairs with issues (seals pushing out of pedal body onto the spindle)
  • + 2
 If the press version of the silent hub worked as intended why are they now going back to the drawing board?
  • + 3
 I wouldn't be surprised if was a patent infringement issue. Maybe they "just need to keep the driver plates in contact with each other" due to engagement problems or something... or it could be that keeping the plates apart or the method to do it was part of someone else's patent. Or maybe the chemtrails are making me read in to things too much Wink
  • + 2
 My money is on a durability issue.
  • + 1
 @JohanG: Dito, after all they let DT Swiss produce a licensed version of the new cassette body and the DT star ratchet must be the closest to the Shimano design..
  • + 2
 Easy answer: they focused on Di2 for too long and delayed dropping a good XTR set. Now they're catching up.
  • + 1
 Funny thing is SRAM eTape Eagle 12 speed (or what ever it is called) comes out this month so Shimano will be even further behind, hence this PR hurl today...
  • + 3
 How is this any different than any other Shimano launch?
  • + 1
 What makes me laugh is everyone who posted that has ridden the new xtr praises it all of the remaining commenters haven’t touched it but are good at e-speculating!! ????
  • + 2
 "It’s simply called FC-MT900".

Simple nomenclature is exactly what popped into my mind. Just rolls off the tongue.
  • + 1
 Until they revise their clutch mechanism on their mechs so it isn't complete garbage that wears out in a few months, I don't give a shit.
  • + 1
 Yep my limited faith in those hubs seems to be correct. I love the idea of new approaches, but that thing just sounded like it was going to be difficult to get right.
  • + 1
 I just saw brakes, shifter and derailleur on an S-Works Epic in a shop. Pretty dope! Everything else on the bike was specialized how brand so no cranks or hubs.
  • + 1
 Umm, are all the people making noise here really going to buy XTR? I for one would never pony up for XTR when XT is every bit a good and soo soo much cheaper. Just say'n
  • + 7
 Whether people want to buy XTR or not, an extra years’ delay or more means that it’ll be later for trickledown. So maybe 12sp XT in 2021. 12sp SLX in 2022. Etc. SRAM are going to sell a lot of drivetrains in those years.

My thought? Shimano should have not screwed around with a new hub they can’t make work and just used XD which is licence free. And they really need to do something about their standard release timetable. They don’t own the market anymore and SRAM have been ripping them for new releases since whenever 2x10 was now- 10 years, maybe? In that time all Shimano seem to have done is get some electronics hardly anyone can afford working nicely with front-derailleur setups that are now incompatible with many new bikes, made a mess of 11sp by trying to keep it compatible with front mechs and given it crap cassettes and screwed up thrir reputation for reliable brakes with essentially the same failures across several generations, Elixir-style.

I’m honestly amazed they’re still getting a pass...
  • + 2
 @tref-h: It is not license free if you make both hubs and cassettes. Shimano had no choice. SRAM is not giving it away.
  • + 3
 i think it's more that XTR is a sign of what direction shimano will be going for the next 3 years. so you don't need to buy XTR for this to affect you
  • + 0
 @EuroinSF: They didn't need to make a hub for this to work. Just the Cassette
  • + 2
 The license ins't for the micro spline, it's for the silent drive (if that ever sees the light of day) from everything I have read/heard. That is why for instance i9 already has a microdrive cassette but with the i9 drive ratchet mech and not the silent drive.
  • + 2
 I won't buy XTR. I'm anxious for XTR to get out there so XT will follow and I can enjoy that. But my XT8000 groups will have to do until then and that's ok. Just hope they can get Scylence working.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: the patent for the cassette body is free to use but SRAM will sue the pants off you if you make a cassette to fit XD Driver cassette bodies. Sunrace found a way around it but they told me there are delays and should be available in March: bikerumor.com/2018/11/06/sunrace-adds-affordable-lightweight-10-52-cassettes-complete-1x12-groups
  • + 1
 In the meantime, they are stoked to be offloading all the extra 1x11 stuff..
  • + 2
 Rumor has it that their new XTR hubs will be renamed Noizy
  • + 1
 I bought an SLX crank in the meantime, the 12 speed chain will NOT work on an SLX ring but seems fine on a Burgtec ring.
  • + 2
 As hot as when the first XTR came.
  • + 1
 Still running 1x10 and 26in wheels, saving all that money in the bank for vacations just feels so so good!
  • + 1
 Brother from another mother dude with a little bit of a DNA difference. 1x9 and 26” wheels.
  • + 2
 why not just tell us about XTR when its ready?
  • + 2
 Those cranks are beautiful but, should've kept the pinch bolts
  • + 1
 Shimano is the Square Enix of the MTB world Gimme KH3!! I mean gimme XTR!!!
  • + 2
 I was only really interested in the silent running hub. I'll wait.
  • + 1
 Excepted I9 and DT-Swiss, does other brands have aftermarket micro spindle? Chris King? Hope? Someone here knows about it?
  • + 1
 From what I understand, these companies are already working on it but they can't launch because Shitmano won't allow them the license to do it.
  • + 1
 Also notice that XTR 9000 parts are getting hard to find (try to find an ispec II shifter).
  • + 2
 Cannondale running SuperBoost for 2020 then?!
  • + 1
 Haha this is literally 1st world problems, rich peoples at that, I'll never be able to afford xtr so no worries here lol
  • + 1
 Why not get rich? You can do it come on!
  • + 1
 @jrocksdh: haha if only it was that easy!
  • + 2
 Tired of waiting. Sram customer for drivetrain needs now.
  • + 1
 GIVE. ME. SPRAG. CLUTCH. HUB.

WHY. NO. SHIMANO. SPRAG. YET?

Thank you Smile
-hbs
  • + 1
 Shimanos CEO must be hanging out to much with Elon Musk , perhaps that would explain the bad delay in the manufacturing.
  • + 3
 "The Black Crank"
  • + 1
 Can Chain reaction not sell shimano to New Zealand now? I wanted to buy some shoes but nothing comes up
  • + 1
 Nope and they have blocked several other countries too. Take a read on Bicycle Retailer and Industry News (BRAIN). Check out the glee in the comments from actual bike shop owners and staff, it's what they want, they want to jack up the prices and margins. No more choice, no more market economy but there are a number of other brands coming to market and they will take grate big chunks out of SRAM and Shimno this year...
  • + 1
 @Kiwi19: Probike is also embargoed from selling to NAm.

Choice is defineyly reduced, some items are seemingly only available from Overseas, and that is at the recommendation of my LBS.
  • + 2
 I wouldnt go higher than xt
  • + 1
 some of you are close to a good chopping! no respect for the company that got you riding! no verbal discipline!
  • + 1
 April fools???? good job shimano, everyday I see more and more bikes with eagle on the trails
  • + 3
 Don’t care.
  • + 1
 I'm still running a SLX 2x11 drivetrain lol who needs 12? Or a one by?!
  • + 5
 @lehott: people who hate front shifters
  • + 1
 @TylerG96: i guess eh? I haven't ridden a one by...yet so I'm a bit biased
  • + 2
 Shimano SLX is enough for me. I don't really need XTR or even SRAM thing..
  • + 2
 Sram for the win
  • + 1
 Cheers for the info Kiwi 19
  • + 0
 Why is it hard for people to understand that a factory fire can affect things like this??
  • + 1
 I think most people would understand if Shitmano had been transparent and forthright from the start rather than beating around the bush and giving false promise after false promise. From Aug, to Dec, to Jan, and now to Mar.
  • + 1
 Holding back, hum... maybe another standard is happening?
  • + 1
 What about GX cassette creaking? only used 11speed is 12speed less creaky?
  • + 0
 too bad no one besides the government is allowed to use beryllium... it's more dense than steel and lighter than aluminum
  • - 3
 Im in Colorado. I order xtr cranks in November from Germany. I order a chain ring from Germany in early December. Everything works just fine. If you want XTR and don't have it, consider yourself lazy and generally not a resourceful person. Enjoy.
  • + 1
 Aliexpress already figured it out!
  • + 2
 maruti groupset
  • + 2
 meh
  • + 0
 News to me! Just took my new 12-speed XTR for a spin this past weekend. Pivot LES with a Next crank and wolf tooth spider.
  • + 1
 do your self a favor and bay Sram
  • + 2
 What a bust
  • + 1
 XT the new XTR
  • + 1
 SRAM take note*
  • + 1
 care factor zero
  • + 0
 XTR´s are absolute rubbish now
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