Sick Bicycle Co Responds to Anger Over Undelivered Frames

May 9, 2019
by James Smurthwaite  
Tim amp Jordan

Professional agitators? Revolutionaries? The meteoric growth of Sick Cycles has been interesting to watch from the sidelines. Like many British brands, it was started in a shed, but it was clear from the onset that founders Jordan Childs and Tim Allen (no, not that one) had bigger plans. Innumerable prototypes, radical designs and a notorious social media presence got them noticed quickly and before long they were shifting large numbers of frames. Too many.

Slowly but surely, the forums lit up. Late deliveries, frames being damaged in transit, and radio silence from a normally vocal company. Panic spread among people who had bought a frame. Sick was hit with waves of refund requests and some customers even threatening legal action. Was this to be the end of a company that stuck its head too far above the parapet?

We sat down with Tim and Jordan of Sick to understand what went wrong, how bad the situation got and how they will move forward in the future:


So, your bikes have been on Pinkbike, but you guys as two people have never been featured. Do you want to give a quick potted history of Sick, why you started Sick and to introduce yourselves quickly?


Tim: We decided that we were going to start cross country running because we were too fat and it hurt our shins on hard ground.

Jordan: Maybe a week into doing these cross country runs, we decided it would be easier if we just had bikes. I bought a bunch of bikes off Pinkbike and I said, "You know the problem is that I like different bits of all of these bikes.” I just said, “what we should do...

Tim: ...is find out how hard it would be to make a frame.”

Jordan: My stage of mountain biking was the time it was on the X-Games. There was New World Disorder, Cranked, Earthed. We went into it culturally thinking that everything was still like it was when I stopped riding bikes. Then we discovered that it had changed a lot. It was very technical and it was very performance oriented and it was like the new golf.

Tim: Which I found incredibly off-putting, which is where we thought, "Hang on maybe there's a bit of a niche for that." It wasn't really to be cool. It was purely, "This fits us." It seemed obvious because we were coming from it fresh. We didn't know it was the right thing but it seemed obvious.

bigquotesWe're a lot less "f*ck you," than we used to be. That's a learned response. That's something that's come over time.

Jordan: For everyone that was put off by the imagery and vibe, there were enough people that were like, "f*cking hell, this is cool". It gets to the point when we've made our first few bikes and people were like “Well, when are you going to make more of them?” We're like, "I hadn't really thought that far ahead."

I think two things stand out with Sick. The big one is the attitude you mentioned. How did that develop?


Jordan: It really didn't develop, but when we started, we were basically a team of one and a bit. We never sat down to go, "This is going to be the tone of the brand.” It would either be Tim tone or Jordan tone.

Tim: I've never really been comfortable with the word attitude actually as well because I didn't understand at the time. That was a version of me.

Jordan: I think it was as close to the true version as you could be while dealing with a lot of people, dealing with problems, dealing with people coming online calling you a c*nt and disappearing.

Tim: The reason I didn't like it being called an attitude because it wasn't an act. However, I think looking at it now, we're a lot less "f*ck you," than we used to be. That's a learned response. That's something that's come over time. I've had to learn to refine myself. People saw us as disruptors or agitators. Also as uncaring and villainous and ...

Jordan: ...That we were rude to people deliberately. When we tried to make it clear we were only rude to someone if they'd been rude to us or someone else first.

Tim: At that point, we used to fight every battle.

Jordan: We didn't revel in being a dick. It was more that we didn't like people getting away who'd been dickheads to other people or were being dickheads to us. We held them accountable. We weren't thinking about the brand. Sick was just the crew we had around us, and it was supposed to be a fun, honest and real atmosphere. For a start, no one would sit down and take on that much work deliberately. Curating an attitude like that would be so tiring, it would be almost pointless to do it.

sick bicycle co death from above www.sickbicycle.co
The Sick Death From Above at Fort William

I think in tandem with that, was the growth as well. You say you never meant to start a business, but obviously, it's morphed into a business. When did that happen?


Jordan: It's more successful than anything we've done before in terms of with hands off it, it would just keep going. It had its own momentum. I think it became a business when we would do nothing and go to bed and wake up with lots of orders.

How many frames have you sold?


Jordan: In total? Well over 300. In 2017 we sold seven. Then in 2018 it was a lot.

So your business model is to take pre-orders...


Jordan: Not anymore. Was. [As of May 9, 2019, the website still is accepting pre-orders]

… Was to take pre-orders. What made you settle on that?


Tim: Small business is really difficult. There is no government help or funding. It was a case of pre-order to pay for a thing to sell, to put the money back into pre-order, to eventually double our money and accrue stock. Again, that's naivety. I didn't foresee any problems. It was purely, we are not wealthy, therefore the only way we could do it was taking pre-orders and then use that to fund the operation and double down on bikes.

bigquotesThere are voices out there saying it's a scam and saying we're con artists. I will never justify those. I think that's pitchforks and witch hunts.

Jordan: I was also worried that if we did sit down and decide to make a pleasing business case, and take a huge loan, that it would cost us a lot more in the long term anyway - while doubling down on risk, doubling down on the pressure to succeed. It seemed like the lightest way of doing that. It also relied heavily that everything was delivered on time, and that people would be prepared to wait.

And if it wasn’t, it would be okay because we had a close relationship with the customer, that there would never be that point where they were really concerned that it was like some kind of pyramid scheme or something like that.

What went wrong and broke that chain?


Jordan: The first break from the chain really was that we took so many orders that we had to have more than one manufacturer. One of them started to fall behind with getting deliveries of parts to complete things. It was as simple as axles, dropouts, bottom brackets and seat collars.

The way that they were held up was frustrating. It was the supplier to the supplier that was feeding the manufacturers was like, "They're literally a week away, don't worry" so we'd be like cool. It's like, "Oh, it's going to be a week more," it's like OK.

Tim: It might be the case that they were promising to us, as we have done, because they thought it would be, and it got held up in its own chain of events. It ran away from there, didn't it?

Jordan: It became that we started saying, "Okay, I don't care what is ready, as long as it's correct, send it." We'd get part delivery, but then the next delivery is still hit by the same set of delays and they were getting worse. They were falling behind, so they would have to catch up with the deliveries they were doing. Then we were adding on more stuff on top of it.

On top of that, the biggest mistake I made was my own passion projects. The titanium frames, the reason that they're on the market for half the price of every other one, was not because there was a shady deal where they were made out of garbage. It was because: One, we brought up someone else's production time that fallen through. And two, that they were loss leaders.

Tim: We wanted to sell them because we wanted to do it and it really did help in our mind with positive marketing.

Jordan: We wanted to make sure we could bring in more frames, and that they would be things that we'd look forward to buying. Challenging things to show people that we had the technical ability to pull it off, that we were making exciting things.

Tim: It's cool to make cool things. We built small amounts of profit into the titanium frames, which was then swallowed up, again, out of naivety. VAT, import fees, postage, handling, packaging, the courier's handling and packaging, all of this stuff. That's not part of the problem. We were learning to build the business and it was something we hadn't considered.

A Sick Gnarpoon rendering. Frank the Welder is working with Sick on this frame.

Jordan: Something that I've learned in this industry is that manufacturers with new business always deliver on time or early. Then afterwards, once you get the agreement that you're working together, you will get pushed around when bigger business comes in.

Once again, it's naivety. I'd be spending so much time hassling people to deliver stuff to me, and I'm being hassled at the other end. I ended up with this never-ending daisy chain of paperwork. At that point, something that was only costing you a little amount of money starts to cost you the one thing you don't have, and that's time. You're chasing for maybe 10 frames when there's 50 over here that need your attention.

Tim: All the time while you're doing that, we're not communicating effectively.

Jordan: Then you're getting people asking you the question, and saying they're getting a different answer. You don't want to just turn to the customer and go, "Yeah me too. I didn't know it was going to be like this, it's never been like this before."

Tim: Do you know the money's almost not important but their trust in you is terrifying.

Jordan: It's f*cking depressing.

Tim: We weren't burying our heads in the sand deliberately, we're sitting there going, "what do we say? How do we communicate?” Rather than just going, "Let's just communicate, let's just speak." Everyone just wants to know is my money safe? Is my product safe?

Jordan: You can't see the wood for the trees a lot of the time. I kept saying to myself," but it's my first day, everything is new all of the time". We're doing it now, but this is not what we signed up for. We wanted to make cool bikes and go out riding, see people riding. I love doing live streams, I love doing test rides, I actually like doing events now. It's like Christmas when you get the deliveries and they're actually right, and everything's good and you open up those boxes.

Tim: The biggest thing is that customer photo with some stupid components that look incredible that you would have never thought about. That's f*cking cool.

When did you decide to not do any more preorders?


Jordan: Quite quickly. We've had to choke it like a number of times. The other thing is we're quite careful to realize that our manufacturers are real people too. They're small.

We're taking the burden off them now with bigger manufacturers. We'll probably still put the same amount of business in for different stuff. They have families to support, they’re friends of ours, we're close with them.

We're careful, but we have a responsibility to provide them with work. That's the other thing. People are like, “why don't you get more staff?” Well apart from not haemorrhaging money, we can't just offer someone a job, train them up, and then in six months time say, “We don't need you now”.

Tim: I think it's important to mention as well, the frames that we were having manufacturers build [Tim and Jordan have ordered 150 frames as stock for the future] were ordered and set up and in place way before anything else. As soon as we had enough money to do that, we decided we'd do that because no one likes a pre-order. It's relying on too many things. It was too stressful.

Tim: I don't think we had any other way to do it. There were no capital loans available to us, but right or wrong it was the only way at the time.

Jordan: Would we have taken pre-orders if we knew it would take so long? No. It's hard explaining to people that this makes a lot of work that doesn't need to be done. It makes people unhappy.

Tim: You know what? I think that's the biggest one of it all. Work is one thing if you're working hard and you're getting something out of it and people are happy and coming to you saying "This is great, that's cool," it's rewarding. But when you're turning around and you're apologizing to people, when you're making people feel bad. It's just the worst feeling. It wouldn't be dramatic to say there have been nights when I just couldn't sleep. How am I going to get a handle on this?

Jordan: How are we going to fix it? We're not the sort of people who would walk away from anything.

The backlash to the issues you've had have been particularly vitriolic


Jordan: That's not unusual for us though. Whatever we do, we would always have quite a loud reaction to it.

Prototype Steel long wheelbase Enduro Bike.
The first ever Sick prototype from 2016, made at Downland Cycles


Do you think people wanted this to happen?


Jordan: Yeah. There are so many people that couldn't wait to see us fail. To see that smug look wiped off my face, it must be a great day for those guys.

Tim: I think there's a clean divide. There are enough people that wanted it to happen, and then there are enough people that are very sad about what happened. It has compounded and become what it is.

Jordan: People that are happy about it are a lot louder than the people that are sad about it. People are on the whole, honestly really supportive.

Tim: London Bike Show was a massive point of anxiety. It was going in and having to put our face up like we have to do this interview.

Jordan: The other thing that's really important is, we wouldn't be in a situation to do well if it wasn't for other, much bigger competitor bike companies literally being like, "This is normal. Just sort it out."

I'm not going to name drop, but some guy from a f*cking huge company drove, we met in Chichester. I sat down and I pulled out my folder of problems. They went, "Is this it? This is the problem that you have? This is business."

Tim: The reason being is because they're all problems with defined solutions.

Jordan: It's not like our problems are continual QA and QC dustbin. You know when you see things come up repeatedly on forums? Oh, they have problems with quality and stuff. I think the only standalone problem we've ever had on a long term basis with quality is frames getting paint damaged in transport.

Tim: Oh, along with the ovalised head tubes because of the packaging.

Jordan: But that was damaged in transit.

Tim: Our packaging wasn't robust enough and they were getting knocked around, ovalised some head tubes, which was then sorted out. That was only literally four or five bikes

Jordan: And the only other problem that we've had is that for some reason, some carbon cranks are so thick that they don't clear the chainstay. When you go look online, we're not the only frame manufacturer that has trouble with extra thick cranks not clearing. You can't really have it all. You can't have a tucked rear wheel and a 73 mil threaded bottom bracket and a three-inch tire.

It's really an overhaul of systems, rather than plugging the leaks and actually being able to stop for a minute to individually reply.

bigquotesPeople are saying that we don't refund anyone, that's absolutely bollocks. We actually did £16,000 worth of refunds in the last six months.

Tim: There was a lot of firefighting rather than working out what was setting it alight. I think that is a lot of effort, a lot of time we've spent on put it out, put it out, rather than looking at the root cause.

Jordan: In terms of the internet, well people do like to watch something burning.

Tim: Look, I'm guilty of that. I'm no different from anyone else. If I am pissed off with something and I'm not getting treated the way I feel I should be treated, I will be there making some noise about it. I don't think I'm unfair when I do it, but I will definitely do that because it does raise awareness and it does push people into doing something.

Do you think your backlash has been unfair?


Tim: No, no. No, no I don't. I would love to say it's been unfair. I don't think it's been unfair. There may have been individual statements and comments, but those are outliers. I think there's a differentiation between those and those that aren't even a customer and just shouting.

Jordan: We've had customers ask for impossible things. One person, I ended up shutting down and blocking them, which is the wrong thing to do. I was having a continual conversation with them every single day where they said they no longer wanted their frame. I refunded it. He said, "Well I had a bike holiday planned. I've already bought the components, I've already paid for the holiday and I haven't got a frame now. To call it even, send me a frame for free and 800 pounds.” I just said at this point, when you're asking for these things, we're no longer having a conversation.

Tim: The ones that are fair, to list them: Anyone who has complained or who has been put off by lateness; Anyone who's been put off by what they think is going to be a non-delivery; Anyone who's been put off by poor communication. Those three I will validate and justify until the end of time. Every single one of those complaints has been fair.

There are voices out there saying it's a scam and saying we're con artists. No, I will never justify those. I think that's pitchforks and witch hunts and stuff.

Jordan: I had to call someone out on a forum. The guy had claimed that he had bought a titanium frame from us, and that the dimensions were wrong, and that he had broken it. At that point, we hadn't delivered any, so it couldn't possibly have happened. Some people just make up stuff. People have had to wait a long time but you have people like, "Oh, I've waited three years for a frame." Then it's just not true.

People are saying that we don't refund anyone, that's absolutely bollocks. We actually did £16,000 ($21,000 USD) worth of refunds in the last six months.

So, has everyone that has requested a refund got a refund?


Jordan: There are refunds outstanding but when you put something through the resolution centre on Paypal or open a chargeback then we don't have the final say but it actually becomes a longer process because we have to go through the diligence of them. It's sort of out of our hands. If they ask for one they'll get it because they always side with them and we can't manually override that, it just has to go through the process.

So you're not refusing refunds?


Jordan: This is the thing that I want to make clear. There is no way of refusing a refund to a customer. If you paid for it on a credit card, debit card or Paypal, through our site, we're too small a business to refuse a refund. The only time someone would ever get refused a refund is because Paypal or their bank says that they weren't eligible for it, and that would be with proof of delivery from us.

There is no way of with-holding refunds. I ended up going in circles with people because they would be going, "Oh, you're stealing our money". No, you opened a case with Paypal, we respond to that with pretty much a copy and paste thing to say, "Yes, this is delayed, it's a handmade item," and once it's in Paypal's hands it takes as long as it takes. When someone opens a query it takes the money from us straight away and they hold it. We're subject to the financial authority, you can't do that.

How are you working through fixing it and that backlog?


Jordan: The biggest problem is probably that it takes so long once you fix things for them to catch up. We started heavily investing time in January, knowing that we would have to scale up the amount that we're working. The amount of hours that we're doing, how many people, and what tasks people do, which meant that previously where one of us would only have a couple of tasks, they'd have to start early. Zam [Creative Director] was doing stock-taking, fulfillment, logistics, having to learn to do audits and bits to free us up.

Tim: That's been reactive, not proactive. That's come out of the back of it. A lot of the time we were dealing with individual cases as and when they arose because we weren't able to be proactive. You don't know what you don't have.

We didn't have this robust system, all in one place - here are the bikes, here's the QA, here's the dispatch notes, here is the dispatch process, and it's gone. It was in different places, in different people, in different things. Again, because there was no other way of doing at the time. Right or wrong.

Jordan: One of the reasons I had to learn to drive was literally because it takes 10 hours [on the train] to get to Canterbury [where the warehouse is]and back from here. If I leave there at 8am, it's midnight by the time we get back.

Tim: My work has not been kind to me at all. They've taken exceptions to running this business, I haven't been allowed time off. I would like to do things like running down and doing inventory and stuff.

Jordan: I know people have families, I know people have lives too when they work around them, but I already sacrificed two years of my family life to get this to where it is now. I can't continue doing it indefinitely. Otherwise, I'm not going to want to do the job.

Is anyone full time on Sick?


Jordan: I do 30 official hours now but I do a lot more than that. Zam probably works six or seven days a week, handling literally anything that slips through any gap. He will go ahead and just do it. He gave up everything for his job, he moved here.

Tim: He doesn't officially have a full-time job so he probably does now do the longest hours.

How many serious issues do you still have outstanding?


Tim: Define serious

Undelivered bikes.


Tim: How many undelivered? It's one batch. How many people have complained out of those? Or how many is ...

This is the titanium hardtails?


Tim: No, there are two or three of those. How many outstanding? In a batch? There are 30 of them I think

Jordan: As far as people waiting, there's about 14 tickets on my desk in escalation, so it's serious. It's actually quite funny to say 14. It doesn't sound like many at all but it really is. That's double the bikes we sold in the first drop.

Tim: The thing is, even if I know one person's upset and pissed off, I feel shit about that. I'm quite a sensitive soul really when it comes to people's feelings. I really hate upsetting people. This isn't for bumping my ego, it's just I don't want to upset people. I don't want people to be upset because of me.

Jordan: It's also the reverse, it's also the exact opposite of the best part of the job.

One of Sick's hardtails at the recent London Bike Show

When did you see it coming?


Jordan: Last year. We knew that these two to three months would be really hard regardless. Because it'll be the transition from being a small company pretending to be a big company to actually a fairly successful medium company.

We knew that while we were getting ready for that, we would not be as visible, we'd not be as open, we'd not be as communicative, and we would not be able to be as affable and friendly as we would. We knew the business was in the gear changes. It's the bit before you go.

It's incredibly scary going over to Asia and committing to this number of frames. We've sold this number before but those frames could have got us both to put down deposits on houses.

bigquotesThere is no way on earth that I should be doing any form of customer service

Tim: I think the most important thing is, we will do right by everyone. We've discussed this. That's the most important thing, is to do right by absolutely everyone.

Jordan: Even people we have already pissed off.

Tim: We won't go into detail on what we're going to do but anyone who has had a problem with us in the past, if they wish to move forward with us in the future, there is something we're going to do later. If you're a previous customer, and as an apology, everyone will be set right. That’s my number one priority.

Jordan: The way that people have been putting it on forums is that our plan was kind of just fizzle out, go bankrupt, take everyone's money and then go scott free.

One, that shows a surprisingly naïve look at how finances work for businesses. You couldn't just do that. Also, I ride bikes. Imagine going to Peaslake on a f*cking Sunday -
"Oh yeah, you're the guy that ripped off all those people." You'd have to give up the thing you love, and I've already given up a lot.

Where are we going? Working with a major bicycle manufacturer to make our stuff and having a lot more stock on shore and ready to sell. I'm hoping that once we do right by everyone and clear everything down, that this very short, but shit period of our business would be something that fades into the background like it has had to for a lot of other bicycle companies.

There has been a laundry list of people that failed in similar ways, and then recovered, and it's just a footnote in the history of the brand, and that's where I'd like it to be. Our only goal now is to continue doing what we're doing in a better version.

Tim: Yeah, cleanly, concisely... I want to hear people happy. I live vicariously through customers, you see. If they're not happy, I'm not happy. I know it's such a bloody cliché as well.

I honestly think if you had said to do this interview towards a month ago, I would have told you to f*ck off. Because I couldn't even concentrate on what was going on in my own life, and that's largely guilt. Guilt isn't exactly a useful emotion with problem-solving. It's, in fact, the complete opposite. It was easy to sit there and wallow and feel bad. Solutions are the most conducive thing here, they will fix things rather than sit there feeling bad.

Jordan: Then following on from that. [The order] is two variants of frames. It's two hardtails, and that's what we're having made in Taiwan. For full suspension bikes, we will continue to use Frank the Welder for a small number of frames and move some production back to the UK.

Tim: And for us it's structure now and lots more staff. People that are better at customer service…

Jordan: …Than we are. There is no way on earth that I should be doing any form of customer service. I just communicate poorly what I mean.

Tim We're personally and emotionally involved in the problems, therefore we react less than constructively at times. There are always people that fall through the net and there are always people that are not happy about what they get. There are always people that are really unhappy and never complaining visibly, but tell their friends, "Do not shop there."

You can't deal with them all. That's okay as long as we are not adding to that. As long as we're not causing it through our own sloppiness or disorganisedness

Jordan: Our attitude to the business is not that we don't care about people and that we don't want to be better and provide good service to people. I don't know where that came from.

Tim: Two years on, we're still not businessmen. 20 years on, we'll still not be businessmen.

Jordan: If we were businessmen, Sick wouldn't be the thing that people like about it. You can't have hot ice. The things that people want from the brand, the things they like about that are caused by who we are.

It’ll be better when we’re able to get on with the things we're good at and have other people that we can employ to do the things that we are diabolically bad at.

Is there anything you want to say to wrap up?


Tim: For what it counts, I'm genuinely sorry if I've upset anyone. Be that if I called someone a dickhead, or I've not been able to meet their expectations. I will do better but that's also not me conceding to the fact that I haven't been trying.

Jordan: My goal is to make it right, no matter how long it takes, even if it's past the point that we could continue doing this. I think that we will stand by our mantra.

Tim: Fixing and doing it right. It is the number one business goal.

Jordan: It doesn't fit into this, but it's something I really want to bring into sharp relief is the things that we haven't sped up was because it was unsafe to do so. Making mountain bikes is an inherently risky thing where you have people's lives at stake. And our laissez-faire attitude to talking to people talking to people and responding to emails does not reflect and has never reflected how seriously we take what we make.

That's why we always set out to make bikes that are really strong, and really trustworthy with a high level of longevity. That's what we set out to do. A lot of the time people are like, "I don't care, I just want my stuff." We could have just gone, “do you know what guys, I told you I need this done by this day. We're a week over now, I don't care how you do it, get it f*cking done. Rush it. I don't care, get it done." We have never done that and we will never do that.

Jordan: We have delivered it late, but we have never not delivered if allowed. Ever.

Tim: A bike delivered late, will eventually be good. But a bad bike will always be a bad bike.

Jordan: When you have your f*cking really whizzy bike there and you go for your first ride, you're like, “this is so f*cking good," everything melts away, but if it's a piece of shit, people will remember that forever.


Well, there you have it. That’s the account the owners of Sick Cycles gave us, in their own words, as to what they claim is and isn't going on. We hope it sheds some light on things for those who have been wondering.


463 Comments

  • + 661
 TL , DR - this was terribly written and barely comprehensible.
No one needs to read this boring sob story. How did this get published?
  • + 131
 Someone give this guy a public service award. I scrolled here to see if it was worth a ready. I'm glad my time not all that valuable time has been spared.
  • + 15
 double that
  • - 7
flag mtbman1980 (May 9, 2019 at 8:38) (Below Threshold)
 Money talks
  • + 43
 It reads like they just turned on Google 'speech to text' and hit publish.
  • + 132
 Change their name to Dick Bicycles
  • + 19
 @morewhitenoise It seems that this was published to demonstrate that these guys are [to put it nicely] pieces of work
  • + 13
 @Mntneer: it does look like sh*** excuse, the article is unreadable, have random content, and does not provide value to existing or potential customers
  • + 29
 Blah,Blah,Blah,Blah.
Plain and simple: We took money and we didn't deliver.
  • + 61
 I'm just here for the shit show.
  • + 107
 Anyone that's been directly or indirectly involved in what's been going on with them will value what's being said. People want to know wtf is going on and hear it directly from the horses mouth. This is how that happens. I think it's great that they were willing to do this and that PB was willing to post it. You've got all weekend to read about EWS.
  • + 8
 @onemanarmy: You think it was great that they were willing to spout more of the same lies to an even bigger audience?

I seriously doubt people who have been directly involved will value more of the same crap from them. What they might value is a refund, or a frame, or an answer to an email
  • + 13
 @honourablegeorge: Yeah... I think it's great that there's open communication out there. You can either read it and go... o.k. at least they're trying to get it together. Or read it and go... more of the same crap. Either way... it's out there. You believe everything you read in the newspaper or on yahoo? How's this any different. It's an interview. They asked the right questions. They posted the responses.

There's been a lot of drama around this company over the years so I think it's great that it's being addressed.

Only thing I take note of is the guy they've got doing their renders. Dude's legit.
  • + 60
 To many small companies building great handmade frames and running their business the right way to excuse this....
  • + 50
 @onemanarmy: Ths isn'r communication. It's PR. Communication would be them answering emails, issuing refunds, that kind of thing. Not continuing to ignore customers, censoring questions and comments from unhapy customrers on Instagram, spout lies (pre orders, the paypal refund process, "we've only had one frame failure", etc), and publish fluff pieces like this online
  • + 6
 @onemanarmy: 100% true. How many of these trolls and naysayers would wish they could be given a second chance if they stuffed it and would want people to appreciate their honesty?!
  • + 0
 @honourablegeorge: that would be the honourable thing to do
  • + 1
 load of shit i confirm!
  • + 29
 @landscapeben: I'm all for second chances, ben, but this is was past that. Take a look how long this has been going on:

www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=211801

"Been waiting for the frame for almost a year. Ordered one March 2018. Been told when ordering it's 40 day lead time. 2k titanium frame. Been very patient and understanding. Had enough of their bulshit and requested for a refund about a month ago. Still haven't heard from them. Their customer service is as useless. It's a rip off. Pretty pissed off.."
  • + 1
 @honourablegeorge: PR would be PB openly saying yeah support these guys. I don't think they did that. I think they just said here's the questions. Here's the answers. Take it as you will. I see a lot of negative isht out there.

I think anyone that was thinking about buying one but didn't know what was going on is probably having second thoughts.... not really the kind of PR I'm thinking they want.
  • - 3
 @honourablegeorge: That's some B.S. So it sounds like you're 1 of 2 outstanding ti frames.

That's a long time to wait for anything.
  • - 21
flag chriskneeland (May 9, 2019 at 10:04) (Below Threshold)
 Read the whole thing before getting the comment sections. Glad I did. They took a risk and shit went wrong. As bike riders, we should all be able to relate. And if you can't, you're not really taking any risks.
  • + 34
 @onemanarmy: PinkBike could have done a balanced article, maybe spoken to a few unhappy customers (the forum has lots of them), and told both sides,like Singletrack did, As it is, they just gave Sick a platform to tell more lies.

singletrackworld.com/2019/05/sick-bicycles-are-things-as-bad-as-they-sound
  • + 26
 @chriskneeland: The risks we take on our bikes don't involve other people's money.
  • + 66
 @morewhitenoise I can’t believe PB gave these nobs a platform to whine.....this is rubbish.
  • + 2
 @landscapeben: This is actual real life and not a sitcom.
  • + 2
 @onemanarmy: That's not me thankfully, just a quote from the forum thread I linked above.

I was close to ordering one of their original frames, but was decided against based on the answers I got to a few questions (like being given two reach menasurements - one with seat up, and with seat down).
  • + 4
 TL;DR manufacturing at volume is hard.
  • + 23
 I remember seeing these guys when I was getting my steel bike frame business up on social media. They always seemed to be pushing with new prototypes/designs etc but only a couple production models. There was a big following as far as comments/likes and I always thought 'good for those guys' but their rise was too fast and lacking business experience. The second they started offering frames to the public it was the beginning of the end. At first the arrogance of the owners was more of a funny/haha/part of the brand but now in dealing with refunds/failures/quality issues you can see these guys had no foresight into a proper business model. At the end of the day businesses fail no matter how well they were planned. The problem is these guys are skating around make things right by their customers and that is FU$*@D! PB should have wrote an article explaining what load of crap this company was/is and used this 'interview' as proof. Again it's a shame the business failed but you can't deny claims to customers who have legit reasons for a refund, especially when you try to snake out of it.
  • + 51
 I, for one, find this a fascinating look into how quickly things can get out of control for people who don’t know what they’re doing.

Kudos to PB for giving them an opportunity to clear the air... but, while honest, their responses still smack of arrogance and unpreparedness. These guys are clearly still in way above their heads and don’t seem to be really doing anything except making excuses.

Borrow some money like a real business, and get the job done. Or hire some actual employees to do the job right.
  • + 4
 @Xc2dh1: Pick a manufacturer and be a Dick about it
  • + 7
 @MasterSlater: I like the skip-the-financing approach. I hope they're able to right the ship.
  • + 2
 @twozerosix: Remember that Jordan is a manufacturing expert from an aero background though. Bikes are a piece of p*ss to him
  • + 6
 @metaam: I'm reading the Sick Bike forums now. Worse than I could have imagined...
  • + 0
 @onemanarmy: I have no stake in this (didn't buy a bike), but heard of them, heard some neg shiz. If you actually read, it was coherent. So 1man, I agree. Reinforces my theory, "to be in the bike industry, you need passion."
  • + 10
 @coyotecycleworks: I found the comment "We had to pre-order, there was no other way. " telling. It came across; ,"Hey, you're not buying a bike, you're supporting a (sssh it's a seceret) kickstarter campaign, that SHOULD become a bike.
  • + 31
 Take a look at the single track thread, a screenshot from Marino’s Facebook page.

He shows frames being ready 2 months ago which he can’t send as Sick hasn’t paid him for them.

Food for thought for anyone supporting them here.
  • + 21
 @jethromtbr: If the product is so amazing.Their faith in it so resolute.Then pony up and get a loan.I suspect if it was their cash on the line, then the attitude wouldn't be quite so cavalier.
It's a vanity project.
  • + 12
 @scottishmark: I work in the aerospace industry as a fabricator/welder and if you think about it bikes still need to be held to pretty high standards as far as quality and engineering. A failed part on an airliner could result in hundreds of lives lost but since a bike frame is sold to an individual it could still end up being 1 failure/1 fatality. Seeing some of the issues particularly on their Titanium frames really makes you wonder about their manufacturing process along with the people they thought were qualified to build them. Again they are just bikes but I think 99% of the people that mountain bike would be a little hesitant to ride their bikes after seeing some of the failures people were having.
  • + 0
 @scottishmark: didn’t know that, maybe I should read the whole interview. Aero tends to be low volume as well as expensive so it’s not exactly 1:1.
  • + 2
 Correct my man @honourablegeorge:
  • + 2
 @coyotecycleworks: Yup and yup (i’m from aero and hull-integrity world)
  • + 1
 Can someone give me the coles notes?
  • + 9
 @theedon: Imagine if Donald Trump (minus the money,misogyny and racism) started a bike brand.Hilarity ensues.
  • + 6
 @watchmen: It's so obvious they needed to take out a loan and hire an operations manager. Almost all businesses start with a cash injection. Unless your margins are insane it's nearly impossible to start from zero.
  • + 7
 @tom666: By the sounds of it they thought their margins were going to be 50%. But forgot to consider all the ancillary costs of delivering a product.
  • + 24
 Prestige World Wide wide wide wide
  • + 14
 @tom666: There are plenty of small brands who started out with next to nothing,self financed,worked 2 jobs,faced issues,worked their arses off to get where they are today.If you asked Andy at Stooge or Cy at Cotic or Sam at Singular or Ed at Airbourne or Joe at Starling they'd tell the same thing.They'll also tell you they made mistakes,lost money,dealt with arsehole customers and even bigger arsehole not customers,got let down by suppliers (Cy especially!!) ,stress over money constantly.They'll also tell you they dealt with the issues like adults and made the hard decisions and that is why they are still here today.I'm sure they understand what Tim and Jordan are going through.......whether they are sympathetic to them.......you'd have to ask them.
  • + 1
 @Xc2dh1: Prick Bikes also good
  • + 5
 @sewer-rat: These guys could not deliver bunk beds if their life depended on it.
  • + 3
 @chriskneeland: Me too, as a fledgling business owner, I've found it astonishing how quickly things can get f'ed up and surprising all the things I didn't know I didn't know.
  • + 4
 @scottishmark: bike design perhaps. Bike business, would seem less so. Credit for saying something, but this smacks of an “industry piece”. Read above comments suggesting pb article could have used some direct comments from confirmed customers.

Beyond that, sure a company or person can f up, and they can say sorry and try to make it right. Doesn’t mean anyone shouldn’t be a bit skeptical if there is a second time for these guys. Especially when they are learning their lessons on customers dime.
  • + 10
 That's cool that Mtbkg has a Fyre Festival. Also, "damaged in transit" sounds kind of similar to "mail fraud".
  • + 6
 @watchmen: At the end of the day you need some money to start - if nothing else just for cash flow purposes. It can be your own money, I imagine a lot of the guys you mentioned were engineers before they started and might have had some money saved. If you can self finance great. They may also have spun out of a bike shop, which is a good way of doing it because you already have a lot of stuff in place. If not, what most people do is get a loan of 20-100k so they can secure premises, buy a first batch of bikes, employ somebody who has the skills they don't (in this case an operations manager) and that gets them going. As soon as they start selling bikes they can start paying back the loan. It's a huge risk, requires you to have faith in yourself, your team, your brand, your business model. That's how most businesses start.

Trying to work 2 jobs and run a company at the same time is how you end up in a shit show like Sick are in. They don't have enough time or money to do a proper job of anything. Everything is late, missing, unpaid because they haven't managed it properly.
  • + 2
 @tom666: I agree with some of but maybe you have a bit of a 'modern' outlook on things, most small business start from nothing, from bedrooms, houses etc with tiny loans, people take risks, often starting alone, no £100k loans, no premises, no staff not for a long time usually.

- Starling, Joe started making bikes in his shed alongside the day job, people started to realise they were good and he got orders, continued to make in shed and do day job / outsourced some production to keep up only after some time did he quit his job and then the premises came later still, I dont know if he has any employees now but its possible not.

- Stanton - Started with a loan from a friend to order bikes from abroad, again no premises, no staff and I believe a full time job which he only quit once business picked up, again no employees to start with.

Superstar Components - I believe started as 'bedroom seller', no employees, no premises to start with, seem to be trading very well now, lots of employees etc.

Works Components - Article on here, shows similar to superstar, started with nothing, no employees to start, still seem small but from what I gather have a few employees now.

Cotic - Similar to the above from what I believe.

Lets put it this way, starting from scratch, with no other income and a £20k loan you wouldnt even open the doors if you wanted a premises and 'operations manager' from day one, you would burn through that £100k pretty fast too e.g. say the directors all want just £10k from Sick a year (not enough to live on) thats £40k, say 2 x 'staff' want £20k and £25k, thats another £45k plus associated costs, thats £85k a year gone already, add up a premises at about £15k and all associated costs and you need to sell a shit load more than 300 frames, thats why it all usually comes slowly, it takes years.

What Sick are doing is pretty typical,start in spare time and go on from there - there are 4 people to spread the workload, they dont need an army of staff and I imagine if they do claw out of this hole they are in if they just simplified the business (e.g. 3 frames bulk ordered from taiwain plus maybe a uk full sus rather than crowd funds, elaborate full sus frames and 10 different models of HT) the actual workload would become quite small and probably manageable by one person and a bit of help, a disorganised business however requires a lot more time and a lot more man-power to sort.

I direct no animosity towards the people at Sick, they are not my 'cup of tea' but thats my proble, not theirs (nobody is forcing me to buy from them / look at their stuff) a failed business knocks on to the families of those involved who are often innocent parties and its really tough starting a small business, been there and done it myself but this mess could have been so easily contained just by stopping pre-orders once the shit hit the fan and building a mail-list of waiting customers and emailing weekly updates to them, every week, even if there is no news, just so the customer knows you are there trying to sort things out for them.
  • + 5
 It wasn't terribly written - it's a verbatim transcript. The guys might make great bikes, but their English is shocking, as is normal for native speakers. Universities in the UK report that non-native speakers of English are more proficient than their native peers. It's all a bit depressing really.
  • + 2
 @scottishmark: yeah I remember reading that early on .. Should be no issues then hey!!!
  • + 5
 @tom666: This resonates for me...

There is an industry saying that goes something like;
"if you want to make a million in the bike industry, you need to start with two"

In this business the road is littered with brands that didn't make it because passion and creativity aren't enough. It requires start up capital, sound business experience/sense and the ability to manage a problematic supply chain, especially if you are a "design house" that is jobbing out fabrication and finishing. The process is fraught with pitfalls that relate to supply and delivery from frames to the smallest component that can hold up delivery of a finished product. Then there is the whole issue of QC, spoilage, warranty/customer service, etc. (it sounds like they were only shipping frames so some of this doesn't apply, but still).

Given the scale of their orders, I think if they could have kept their manufacturing regional it would have made more sense. Time line would have likely been a bit shorter with lower overhead relative to freight. Also, it seems to me that (probably a big) part of their issue (an assumption based on other information that has come to light) was poor cash flow and not paying their mfg vendors on time which further compounded delays.

From my point of view, these guys are marketing (excluding PR) and product design, they should be working with someone else that has the business chops (project and supply chain management, etc.) to pull the whole thing off.

There are plenty of examples of successful small builders who started small and were careful with their business model and have managed to survive and thrive, but it's still a tough way to make a living.
  • - 1
 @Hyakian: you mean UK + Peru + China isn’t a region?!
  • + 1
 @scottishmark: Relative to their base of operation?
  • + 2
 @MasterSlater: They did borrow money. They've got £15K in debenture, it's on companies house.
  • + 2
 @twelvemonths: that could be anything, could be personal money the directors put into the business, could be credit on stock, an overdraft etc etc.

Small ltd company accounts show almost nothing of use to anyone being realistic.
  • + 2
 @justanotherusername: No, it's debenture, a long term loan. Director investment is equity and definitely not the same. Equity wouldn't be shown on the company information as an in debt claim. UK Companies have to disclose information like debenture for public record.
  • + 1
 @twelvemonths: a director will often make a loan to the company, or family, a friend etc - common practice.

Also a ltd company in its first year of trading is unlikely to be able to access any form of loan.

My companies accounts are no presntes as you suggest btw.
  • + 1
 @DarrellW: haha, and that from an Irishman
  • + 0
 @watchmen: people need second chances in real life much more than in sitcoms matey.
  • + 2
 @landscapeben: It took you 12 days to come up with that chummy?
  • + 291
 "Jordan There are refunds outstanding but when you put something through the resolution centre on Paypal or open a chargeback then we don't have the final say but it actually becomes a longer process because we have to go through the diligence of them. It's sort of out of our hands. If they ask for one they'll get it because they always side with them and we can't manually override that, it just has to go through the process."

Absolutely untrue - you can resolve a paypal dispute at any point by granting the refund, the transaction is then cancelled - It is not out of their hands at all, thats entirely the point of the process, why on earth would paypal force both parties into waiting for 20 days.

Its all here:

www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/resolve-disputes

The only reason not to just click the refund button is because you are choosing to use the 20 days available to delay the process.
  • + 157
 Also, after 180 days post payment (while waiting for whatever is going on a Sick) Paypal WILL NOT refund your money, whether you've received the merchandise, or not. Lots of people could have gotten burned because they were patient and trusting.
  • + 14
 Should be top comment. This and @hevi ’s response to it.
  • + 50
 They also left out the rather beautiful little loophole of theirs where if they do a pre-order like they do with a 3-4 month lead time and then something 'unexpectedly' delays them a short while and then something about customs and then an issue with the warehouse etc etc and all of a sudden the schedule has hit over 6 months and there goes the 180 days refund window.

"We're too small a business to refuse a refund." If that were the case there wouldn't be multiple folks waiting on refunds for literally two years that you claim to have processed multiple times.
  • + 4
 to the top
  • + 1
 @ratcat: there are PayPal guidelines regarding pre order with a maximum date stipulated for supply after taking payment, I believe it’s 20 days so potentially breaking their guidelines there.

I am not going down the bitch fest / personal insult route others do and have actually defended Sick in many ways before but feel it’s unfair not to shine some truth on this statement about PayPal - it’s just not true.
  • + 39
 I personally had to go through my bank and deem the transaction as a fraudulent charge to get my money back. I put the order in for a frame in August of 2018, kept getting excuses as to why it was delayed until I finally asked for a refund (at this point it had already been past 180 days). I sent probably an email a week and I'd either get no response or a bullshit answer saying it would be refunded any day now, which it never was. I was never, not once, rude to them about any of it. I even bought shirts of theirs (all of which will become garage rags or go into the garbage) and little accessories like headset top caps before all this went down. I did receive those items at least haha. Maybe they should just stick to clothing and accessories.
  • + 13
 @d3ftone: I was polite and did not call them out for all the BS nonsense excuse. I had tee shirts...I waited for the frame. I had to go through PayPal for my frame refund.

Prick Bikes Pyramid scheme garments are good for wiping shit off your tyres, nothing more
  • + 18
 @justanitherusername

It does indeed appear that either;
1. Tim and Jordan are bullshitters.
or
2. Tim and Jordan don’t possess the intelligence to perform basic tasks.
  • + 10
 To each their own I guess. Birds of a feather perhaps. Just looking at that photo of them with the long hair and tats, goofing around in the back garden. And the company is called Sick - a word popular with teenagers and dude bros. What did people expect? That a company like this would produce better bikes than one run by actual engineers and bean counters?
  • + 5
 @jaame: Spot on. I'm all for boutique brands (Evil, Transition, etc) over big names - but even those small companies have some engineers or frame designers with credibility. These are just two guys that made a frame for themselves and then oversold the concept to the masses.
  • + 1
 @DarrellW: that's an interesting point and the only thing in this entire piece I was actually curious about. Purely as a consumer that's had to do it on two occasions, once for an Evil Wreckoning that's failed after 290km (which I won), and also for a Manitou fork that was incorrect. Both chargeback were fairly lengthy but I went through Visa for one (which was quick) and PayPal which was much slower.
  • + 186
 Complaining about haters and witch hunts are the mark of any truly successful businessman. Just look at our president...
  • + 4
 you my man won the internet today
  • - 50
flag tigerteeuwen (May 9, 2019 at 10:49) (Below Threshold)
 @Compositepro: no, for 63 people he did. (Or whatever his current upvote count is)
  • - 113
flag JohanG (May 9, 2019 at 12:10) (Below Threshold)
 Westward Ho, Your comment is ill informed. Multiple reliable sources have confirmed that the Obama admin used the FBI as a political arm to interfere with the 2016 elections. That's banana republic shit right there and has no place in the free world. Canuckistanians, you may now downvote this comment for the children.
  • - 49
flag tigerteeuwen (May 9, 2019 at 12:24) (Below Threshold)
 Sheep being sheep with the down votes today.
  • - 78
flag preston67 (May 9, 2019 at 12:54) (Below Threshold)
 Except in President Trump's case there really are severe haters and a witch hunt. He is justified in calling them out.
  • + 16
 Thanks obama
  • + 1
 @tigerteeuwen: and yet he's still doing so much better than your good self....go figure
  • + 3
 @Compositepro: I upvoted you for comedic value.
  • + 4
 @tigerteeuwen: thanks man i tried to upvote myself but it wont let me...btw what is upvoting? i thought you could and should only downvote in the comments.....otherwise it will ruin it for me
  • + 12
 I like to vote anyone with a 0 to either +1 or - 1 indiscriminately, simply to make others think that it must be something they should have an opinion on.. Then I watch it unfold and nothing much happens
  • + 4
 @nordland071285: the comment section today made me think of a bumper sticker I saw once. "Honk if you don't exsist"

Of course I honked.... se la vie
  • + 1
 @JohanG: That is the complete opposite of what happened. The CIA and FBI began investigating the Russian interference, told Obama's administration, which did nothing to stop it and only kept an eye on it. Trump himself tweeted "The reason that President Obama did NOTHING about Russia after being notified by the CIA of meddling is that he expected Clinton would win" on June 26, 2017.
  • - 8
flag JohanG (May 10, 2019 at 9:38) (Below Threshold)
 @Rubberelli: none of what you state is true. It was Hillary who actually colluded with Russia.
  • + 1
 @JohanG: Hillary colluded with the Russians to ensure that Trump would win!! Hahaha!
  • + 3
 @Compositepro: I’ve actually had a net positive income in all the years I’ve worked, so...
  • + 2
 @DarrellW: I used to live in Westward Ho! The only town in England with an exclamation mark.
  • + 153
 "We're not doing pre-orders anymore"

Son, pre-orders are all you have on your website.
  • + 148
 They come across like pricks to me, they admitted they used to be pricks but have changed, pricks. I feel sorry for the people they have lied to and taken money from. What a pathetic sob story. Be STRAIGHT with your customers and things would of not gone to this sorry state.
  • + 8
 100% agree. It's a shame any time an business fails particularly if you're passionate about it but the customer is always number one priority. These guys really bent some people over a barrel. I would sympathize if they did everything they could to make things right by their customers but good luck with this technique.
  • - 13
flag youknowitsus (May 9, 2019 at 14:21) (Below Threshold)
 You're outta ur damn mind bro. Ever ridden on dirt?
  • + 141
 Fuck knows why you would give your money to this pair of bellends when there's companies like Starling and BTR making genuinely good steel full sus bikes in the UK with progressive geo.
  • + 73
 Lack of skulls and hyperbole.
  • + 18
 Starling, btr, shand, pipedream, Stanton, even Genesis! Including some there that order from overseas but design progressive or interesting bikes from Britain... Admittedly none are very punk rock, but a bright pink pipedream moxie comes close! All famous for customer support and contact too!
  • + 5
 @watchmen: Stickers though...
  • + 3
 @Hyakian: And socks.
  • + 13
 Oh, man. unashamedly cribbed from stw:

sickbicycle.co/pages/chainbreakers-cc
  • + 12
 @oobie38: Is this a f*cking motorcycle gang but with mountain bikers?

"Hey Bros! Let's session this 50 meter patch of dirt by roosting the ever living shit out of it of hours on end. Then lets have cheap beer until we're all wasted and drive home drunk."

Culture.
  • + 5
 @oobie38: You couldn't make it up.......they did/have and believe it devoutly.There's more to the naming of the brand than a euphemism.
  • + 25
 No shit... reading this, all I keep thinking is "f*ck these guys are dumb and bad at business... if they're this naive and stupid about the way they go about selling bikes, why would anyone trust them to actually make a good bike??"

And they seem to wear being bad at their jobs as some kind of badge of honour. f*ck...
  • + 3
 @dannyboybiker: *heavy breathing*

Jokes aside, I'm far too much of a hobbit to ride that bike, but it's very nice to look at.
  • + 2
 @Almazing: Not gonna lie that sounds pretty fun
  • - 1
 @tom666: Sounds like a 50:01 edit tbh.
  • + 3
 I'm lovin' my Starling. No drama there.
  • + 4
 @blitz66: buy a Chromag if you want punk rock.
  • + 2
 @fartymarty: doesn't tick the British steel box suggested , but completely agree! They work much better on it. Guerilla gravity make the pedalhead too. Can't knock their logo for that feel...
  • + 102
 A blind man on a galloping horse could see how shady these guys are.
  • + 7
 So many red flags.
  • + 91
 That is a shit ton of drama for a bike frame.
  • + 46
 You have to pre-order your drama, though...
  • + 13
 @MTBrent: but not from here, we have no pre-orders here...
  • + 7
 @MTBrent: it comes with a free frogurt
  • + 2
 @giantwhip: The frogurt contains potassium benzoate...
  • + 2
 @Wamprat: (silence).............That's bad.
Can I go now?
  • + 75
 This comment section is definitely going to go down in Pinkbike history...
  • - 26
flag WAKIdesigns (May 9, 2019 at 9:53) (Below Threshold)
 Doubt it. I would have to try hard to stir it up and nothing would still come out of it. I'd have to get into absolute denial mode and talk straight out of my ass, virtue signal all the way, wait patiently with mentioning nazis, socialism, us healthcare, transgender people, vegans, climate change, dying oceans, long geometries... funny enough if I started crapping on hardtails and long geometries this could turn into sympathy to Sick Nothing will possibly beat First look on ARBR. I think this can't even come close to EWS doping article...
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: Come on give it a go! I know you have it in you Smile

I'm not sure how I feel about those two personally and have to wonder how many posters here have actually done business with them & got the shitty end of things -vs- just being armchair CEO's who've never run or worked at a small international business started in a shed for pete sakes...

The article was painful to read, the message appeared to me to be two guys that got smacked with a tsunami of attention and made the mistake of trying to be all things to all people (with an attitude) without understanding logistics and human nature (people HATE to wait for anyting these days ~ givememyf*ckingburgeralreadyitsbeentwominutes)

Anyway, my unsolicited two cents in support of your epic pot stirring powers ~ Wakiwon the force is strong in you....
  • + 47
 RANT WARNING

Yes, there will be armchair CEOs and people here just to shovel and throw shit about, however, removing them from the equation still leaves a pile of shit on the floor, of JC and TA's own creation, and it is their job to clean it all up so as not to allow any of it to be thrown about.

I have had dealings close to a decade ago now with ordering frames with Cotic, Stanton (and would have had with BTR if I had had the money at the time), who all started out with an idea for a bike frame the same as JC and TA.

Others have managed the situation, and well, when inevitable issues arose. In my case, Cy at Cotic had to reject a delivery of tubes on QC issues which put back many people's orders and in my case, he kept me informed at all times, and had the factory in Taiwan personally finish off the frame and had that one frame sent to me direct to Japan to fulfil my order ASAP. They were in constant contact and, if they made a promise, they kept it. That is what generates and deserves respect in customers.

Compare that to JC and TA at Sick and it becomes very apparent, very quickly that they have failed to manage the situation, and dismally at that. Read that Singletrack article and it all sinks in.

Cy at Cotic, Dan at Stanton and Tam and Burf at BTR all managed to create killer product and simultaneously deal professionally with customers at all stages of their start up process. In the case of Dan Stanton and Cy Turner, they stumped up the money to make the frames; gambling their own money. Tam and Burf only took orders for what they could make personally from their shed and have grown slowly and steadily; customers at BTR can see their tubes becoming frames on FB. It is all open and transparent.

I for one have concluded from the Sick debacle that I do not trust JC and TA's management ability so, therefore would not trust them with my money. I hope they turn it around, however, I don't see that yet in their answers here; the experiences of the author on Singletrack cement those feelings further.

Just for the record, I have run a business here in Japan for 18 years. We had one complaint 15 years ago, which we fully accepted, and changed our business as a result. We have never had a single complaint since. With integrity, which people like Dan, Cy, Tam and Burf have in spades, it can be done, and done well.

JC and TA don't deserve any more slack, they deserve a kick up their whining arse to sort their mess of a business out;

And to do that, you have to stop adding more bullshit to the ' shit for throwin' ' pile. I just checked and their website says on an Shrike frame "Please note, this is a preorder, we currently do not have a firm date for delivery. Estimated completion date of manufacture is 29th May 2019."

They stopped taking preorders did they? Manufacture date of two weeks?
If you want people to stop throwing shit about, you have to stop bullshiting to start with.

RANT OVER
  • + 13
 @orientdave: Not sure that that was a rant, Dave. It was very well put.
  • - 5
flag WAKIdesigns (May 10, 2019 at 0:50) (Below Threshold)
 @orientdave: I don't think their intention is to bullshit, I find them quite honest. I think they just don't see the fact that these explanations are not helping them and definitely aren't helping their customers, and there is no way in the whole world any business can work like that. It is against the business ethics and mechanics - as simple as that. I am afraid that with this article the coffin has been delivered to their door.

What I find ironic and fascinating though, is that in many ways, they are the embodiment of the "keep it real MTB company". Sick is what many, MANY people say they want, when they criticize big companies. A little business producing no fks given bikes, simple constructions, going against the tide of overengineered, overpriced tech bullshit. Then, they would never get where they are if cool geometry wasn't on the rise. Finally they are rather big mouth, passionate, outgoing as hell and very accessible.

If you can't build TRUST, you're out. No matter what you sell.
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns: you find them honest? The article is full of obvious lies. The frames are late because they haven't paid for them. The supplier had confirmed as much. They claim to have stopped pre orders, another obvious lie. There's a whole paragraph of lies about PayPal refunds. Lies about their products being high quality. And lies to their customers about dates, deliveries and all the rest, when they can be bothered to reply.
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns:

You find them honest, OK. A question then. How would you describe the gap between their claim that they are not taking pre-orders anymore with the demonstrable fact that their website is taking pre-orders?

Honest? Sorry Waki; you talk sense here far more often than people give you credit for, however we will have to agree to disagree here.

I agree with you totally about the tendency of the industry to sex-up everything and everything to ejaculatory gnarly shreddage (Transition BIkes being the undisputed champions of that for over a decade) however whether you are a huge conglomerate or a boutique hand made brand, you have to work to build trust and these two boys have failed miserably in that department.

Honesty builds trust. These gents haven't built any trust.
Be my guest and do the maths.
  • + 2
 @honourablegeorge: I expressed myself in the wrong way. Honest was a wrong word. I meant that I can believe that they themselves cannot recognize their own shortcomings. They think they are acting fairly.

I selfishly reserve my judgment because I am not going to go around with the weight of accusations on people who do not influence life of mine or any of my farthest associates. Can I muster enough empathy for folks who had problems with them? Not any more than for any person in the world who has problems with getting something they paid for. I am not going to do a research, trying to get to the bottom of things. Definitely not in an recreational manner. I am not going to buy any frame from them and highly possibly from anyone making a similar product, it is just not my thing, no matter how much I may like to see such things existing. As a product.

@orientdave I do need to explain what I wrote. What I meant was, tgat tgere are plenty of folks whining on overpricing, overcomplication and soullessness. One cannot carelessly throw accusations demanding the perfect world, because Here you have an example of the opposite of Spec or Trek, so to sum u: people be careful with what they wish for.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: Absolutely agree with you there. Just a bit of miscommunication. Enjoy the weekend!
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: I can't believe that they think they are acting fairly - they're lying to customers, claiming customs problems, shipping delays, all that nonsense, but the facts are that the frames are still with the supplier because the supplier hasn;t been paid - they're not innocent victims here, they are actively deceiving their customers, they are refusing to refund people. they are ignoring people who have paid them for frames for months on end..
  • - 4
flag WAKIdesigns (May 10, 2019 at 8:13) (Below Threshold)
 @honourablegeorge: I don’t know how to put it better... I meant that I am pretty sure that they themselves think they act fairly, which doesn’t mean that they act fairly. I am not even on their side, I just don’t want to have anything to do with the witch hunt. If you want to squeeze out of me that they are scumbags you are not getting a bit of it. TreK and Sram has robbed more people off their money by introducing Boost than Sick could achieve in 50 years of their conduct. Not to mention 650B bullcrap.
  • + 0
 @honourablegeorge: For what it’s worth, I talked to Jordan personally on a few occasions and we wrote some to each other, and trust me I can tell a piece of crap scammer right away. Here, all I see is incompetence. The results may be similar but I leave you with the stench of assumption of malice.
  • + 1
 @orientdave: I agree, not much of a rant, actually quite an understandable explanation.
Hope the guys at Sick will read it and reconsider their situation, ... can't believe they are still taking orders.
And honestly nobody knows who is really making their frames and how much profit these people is making.
  • + 62
 They lost me with why did you decide to stop doing pre-orders & literally the only frames you can currently buy on the website are pre-orders...
  • + 56
 Yo, we replaced our pre-orders with pre-orders 'cause we heard the pre-orders never got pre-ordered.
  • + 59
 Nobody with half a heart wants to see a business fail - but the milk of human kindness is not unlimited & Sick have drunk, spilt or wasted more than their fair share. Stop acting like victims, grown a pair, act like adults & see right by your customers!
  • + 9
 Right, and so many small builders out there worth supporting that have an established track record.
  • + 6
 As a past and current business owner seeing a business fail doesn't make me feel badly except for any employees that got involved and are then left in the cold by bad business owners when things fall apart.
There are loads of reasons why businesses fail, and 98% it's going to be something the owner did and F'ed up or it was just a bad idea, etc. So, live and learn, and maybe not be self employed. But I don't feel bad for these guys at all since their "business failed"....they obviously just shouldn't be in business, and why anyone would buy a bike from people that don't even ride bikes is incomprehensible!
  • + 60
 "Two years on, we're still not businessmen. 20 years on, we'll still not be businessmen"

It's fine to not be business people. Just don't run a business. Problem solved.
  • + 4
 It's funny how their shtick was being a couple of c*nts, and the plot twist is that they're *drumroll* a couple of c*nts.

Something I don't like about the long/low/slackers is they never explain how they can be equally effective in tight trails, and yet they claim they're just as good.
  • + 1
 @rezrov: You can use a lot more body movement on a long bike to get it where it needs to be, rather than being pinched up and relying on the smaller bike to get around tight corners
  • + 47
 The q factor comment about cranks and chainstays is total bullshit. It's called a good print either it's right or its wrong. The f*cking carbon crank is not "thicker" than an alloy crank arm. What in the actual f*ck? Thia is why they will fail!
  • + 49
 These guys are idiots.
  • + 33
 I tried to make it through without an opinion, but the "some carbon cranks are so thick that they don't clear the chainstay" statement just made me laugh.

I've never read such a whiny pile of bullsh!t words before.
  • + 10
 @MTBrent: they f*cked up and are making excuses lol
  • + 46
 What no one has pointed out was that these guys don't even ride bikes....they wanted to "run XC but it hurt their shins"(or something), so they recalled biking from X Games, and they bought a "bunch of bikes", then built their own.
That would be like me teaching yoga, even though I have zero interest in yoga but a girlfriend of mine was into it, so....I can probably teach it....and if I walk around saying "namaste" a lot that must mean I know what I'm doing.
I'd never want to buy a bike from people that don't have a deep passion for bikes....just like surfboards...a shaper knows what a different curve or tail will do and how to make a board act a certain way because he's spent years in the water.
I guess in the Insta world people buy into image
  • + 9
 Exactly, un-ironically naming your company 'sick' is telling it itself. What I don't understand is why, once they were struggling to supply what customers payed for, they didn't simply stop accepting further orders and focused 100% on not scamming people.
  • + 15
 @Henrito: "sick" makes me cringe anytime I see or hear it used in it's modern slang way, which I'm guessing is how these guys were using it.
I didn't read all the way but I'm guessing they're just clueless dudes that found it a big joke with no concern of creating an actual business.
I am self employed creating one-of pieces for customers and I've been in the position of being backed up, behind schedule, etc. But...I've always communicated upfront and did everything in my power to make sure my paying customer got what they wanted and more! Hence, I have a solid reputation, customers have been returning for years, and I have a job that lets me ride my bike when I want!! It really isn't all that difficult to have a decent business ethic, in fact, with how many flakey people exist, if you have ten percent more ethic then you'll already be winning!
  • + 12
 @GlassGuy: ur right, bro. that's a sick comment.
  • + 4
 @Henrito: Because that's how scams work. They focus 100% on scamming rather than supplying what people paid for.
  • + 2
 @Henrito: Because I am guessing they were out of money, and to fix the first customer's problems they needed to take money from more people - but instead of solving the first problems, their problems just compounded.
  • + 46
 Firstly, I gave a bunch of material to James for this article. What a waste of my time. Secondly, I ordered a Wulf frame in October 2018. It was relatively cheap, not fancy and it had the geometry I wanted. I was told all sorts of stories about what was happening, things like my frame was lost in their warehouse, which was clearly not true. I asked them for a refund. By then they'd managed to stall things long enough that I couldn't reverse my credit card payment, something I didn't know was possible. I kept asking. A month ago they said my refund had left the Sick account. No refund. Now they're ignoring my emails.
  • + 15
 I’m also pretty disappointed in this article, after giving James plenty of info. Nothing from the customers side. Props to Hannah for the STW article.
  • + 32
 That's a much better, fairer article. They decided to answer Pinkbike's easy questions instead of Hannah's difficult ones
  • + 9
 @honourablegeorge: Looking at that photo of the Death From Above makes their claims here about the build quality look somewhat questionable.
  • + 36
 There's no such thing as bad publicity

Sick: hold my beer you c*nts!
  • + 32
 A disappointing interview from James (editor on pb). I was contacted by him about 2 months ago. Was asked if I'd like to be featured in the article about sick to which I said yes. He asked and I've given him all the details about my experience with them hoping it'll help my case. I even postponed taking legal action giving them a chance not to go down that route.
Lack of communication with James (pb) made me look him up and when checked his fb profile saw a picture with no other then sick gang posing and him beside them. At that moment I felt that I was messed around by sick and it was just another way of gaining time.
Lack of responses to emails sent to James in trying to get some info on the process became even more stressful than dealing with sick. It is like you reach out to a drowning person and the let go.. ah, well...
After reading Hannah's piece on stw wish I would have helped her as she seems to have put a lot of constructive work in this.

I ordered xxl titanium gnarcissist luxe on 23 March 2018. Have been told that at the time there were only 3 of them "in the wild". I recently found out that there are 20+. Someone has received no23 in February 2019. This got me fuming!
So,.. I'm wondering where the f***k that frame is.. They definitely been getting or got delivery of those frames. As my was ordered this long ago it was definitely in that shipment. I've been told it should be with me any day now. This was all more than half a year ago. I saw a picture of the frame that looked exactly like one I ordered at the time it was supposed to be delivered but was told it was not mine.
I believe I'm the longest standing outstanding customer (prove me wrong) that has no frame, no refund, no communication. They have paid 16k on refunds..yet I haven't received one when requested..
.. And they say it's not a scam. You've scammed me.
  • + 4
 thnx ! this should be included in the article
  • + 14
 @kiksy: STW article was due to publish weeks ago, but Jordan kept not providing answers, presumably knowing the above was in the works. STW still publishes first though
  • + 4
 @tomhoward379: sorry , yes. What I should of written was "coincidently this Pinkbike article appeared shortly after the STW one". I saw the STW one first.
  • + 32
 Looks like Tim did some soul-searching out in the backyard and got some friendly, helpful advice from his neighbor Wilson.
  • + 6
 He probably should have listened to his friend Al in the first place.
  • + 26
 So a couple of Bros decided to make a company without any business acumen or customer service experience.

"...That we were rude to people deliberately. When we tried to make it clear we were only rude to someone if they'd been rude to us or someone else first."

Sorry Bros. People are paying you money. You can't be rude to your customers no matter how much of an a*shole they are to you. Customer is not always right. But that also doesn't mean you can be dick to them. I know you have your Bro image to maintain and all, but customer service ALWAYS comes first. Especially a 'company' as small as this one.

Stick to selling stickers and shirts.
  • + 71
 So a couple of Bros who were up to no good Started making bikes in my neighbourhood......
  • + 34
 They got into a couple dozen internet fights and my mom got scared....
  • + 41
 @nyhc00: so they accepted more pre-orders and bought a house in Bell Air.
  • + 18
 @Mac1987:
I gave a few hundred, about 7 or 8
And they yelled to the punter, "Yo bro see ya later"
I thought of my new bike
But it's not anywhere
I just paid good money for a load of hot air.
  • + 26
 What a couple of blowjobs... could they come across any more douche?

How did this make it to PB’s front page? How did it not get scrapped from minute one of the interview?
  • + 30
 Its like Friday Fails, but with words! Entertainment!
  • + 4
 @iamamodel: lmao good way of putting it
  • + 27
 The industry is just fine without these 2 individuals & their frame business.
  • + 25
 Please don't give these people a chance to bail themselves out... Blaming their suppliers is crap. Managing suppliers is part of being a bicycle company, if you can't do that, then do try and sell bikes.
  • + 0
 What would you know? ;-)
  • + 5
 Seems a few people have missed the joke here...
  • + 2
 @tomhoward379: I got you bru.
  • + 24
 I never wanted to see them fail, but they got too cocky like they said, selling more than they could. I like sick and what they do, they just need someone to make sure theyre doing things right.
  • + 36
 They're way past the stage of "oops, we made mistakes".

They're still lying too - talking about not ding pre-orders any more, while their site right now offers two frames on preorder and one being crowdfunded.

"Please note, this is a preorder, we currently do not have a firm date for delivery. Estimated completion date of manufacture is 29th May 2019."
  • - 1
 It's the same case with nearly every custom car shop out there. There are so many talented dudes that can build amazing things. But they can't manage money, work flow or communication. Their minds are focused on making cool stuff. So eventually either someone jumps in to take over the workflow/money/communication or HA comes and shuts them down. Or the internet gremlins do.
  • + 15
 @onemanarmy: Ahh...the 'custom car shop'...ever the model of ethical, sustainable business.
  • + 4
 @motard5: Apparently you and other's don't read much.

That was pretty much my point. All the talent in the world doesn't matter if you don't have business sense.
  • + 6
 Why care if they fail? They aren't sincere about the "business", they don't even ride bikes!! What is the attachment?
If a business "fails" it's almost always because someone F'ed up. If there is a product that people want...and...the business owners have a solid work ethic then that business will grow. If it falls on it's face, like apparently this one did, then...bye bye.
There are plenty of true bike builders out there that want to make sure you're happy, and they know how to build a bike! I'm sure skull stickers can be found to put on those frames too
  • + 27
 Grabs popcorn.....
  • + 8
 Can I join? I've got tea.
  • + 5
 Do you need extra butter sir?
  • + 7
 @vinay: I've got whiskey for your tea
  • + 3
 I got Hob Nobs,Jammy Dodgers,Bourbons and Garibaldis.
  • + 6
 Are you three trying to have popcorn together?
  • + 22
 I'm running an indiegogo for halftime sweets, biscuits and crisps if anyone wants to sign up. using some artisan snackmakers, they'll be delivered before you know it
  • + 2
 @rnayel: Oh, lovely!
  • + 0
 @oobie38: this might be the comment of the day and that is saying something on here!
  • + 2
 I’ve got grey poupon.
  • + 5
 @powderturns: Probably bad diet.Eat more fibre.
  • + 0
 This popcorn is gonna be extra salty.
  • + 0
 @nyhc00: Great! This article is best enjoyed with a good pinch of salt.
  • + 2
 @vinay: To quote themselves,from their own Instagram page announcing the comeback.
"Don't believe 100% of everything you have read."
  • + 2
 @watchmen: chocolate hobnobs?
  • + 2
 @BenPea: Pervert.
  • + 2
 @watchmen: just when we thought the controversy couldn't ramp up any further.
  • + 2
 @watchmen: Garibaldis 3
  • + 22
 Happy to issue refunds my ass. This is my account after waiting 4 months and 30 emails later. Sick aren't the victims they make themselves out to be. They block or delete anyone that's stands up to them.

Jake,

Ignoring the legality of the refund for a second.

Your bike is in a box, done and finished, and is on the process of shipping.

If I give you an exact date and it misses it by a day or so then we will have ‘built up hopes and dreams again’

The delay was in the manufacturing process of the bike. Buts that’s now done, and finished. I would wager it will be with you before the one you have ordered. We originally quoted 30 days as that’s what we were told it would be.

We don’t manufacture bikes ourselves. So we are at the mercy of our suppliers.

You only need to check our IG to see that customers are taking delivery of frames in the same batch as yours, we just need to process all the frames.

You are of course entitled to persue a refund through PayPal: they will open a case for you and we will have X amount of days to respond with our side of the story. But your goods will be shipping very, very soon and probably be with you long before PayPal have resolved it

I would be as frustrated as you, absolutely. But I have to stand by the decision to not refund a custom built, frame we have supplied and paid our suppliers for, purely based on it ending so close to delivery.

Kind regards

James

Customer Service
Sick! Bicycle Co
  • + 15
 I got the same e-mail...pretty much word for word...scammy cunts
  • + 1
 This fucking snake did nothing but lie to me for 5 months! One minute it was in cutoms waiting to be released, then a month later it was on the boat coming over. Fuck Tim, Jordan and Sick!
  • + 18
 "previously where one of us would only have a couple of tasks, they'd have to start early" :this thing is commonly known as work. Creating a bike company is more than t shirts, beer and bike shows. That's sad you had to learn it the hard way.
Now some companies managed to get back in fashion (Evil) it took some time and hard work.
  • + 9
 Evil's first three bikes burned down, fell over, and then sank into the swamp.
But the fourth one stayed up. And that’s what you’re going to get son, the strongest bike in all of Bellingham.
  • + 4
 @acali: Was wondering how long it would be before someone brought this up. Don’t get me wrong, I love mine. Was just wondering.
  • + 4
 @acali: beautiful quote
  • + 19
 I decided today right now that I am starting a bike company. Send me your money and I'll send you some bikes... maybe... when it's convenient... for me... no returns
  • + 8
 As you've been honest.And we all know running a business is hard.And you seem to like bikes.Here's my Bank Acc number 0985 354287800.
  • + 6
 @watchmen: Do you also have a soul and or children? Also accepting souls and first born children as payment. Its part of my new business model I want my company to be edgy
  • + 18
 This is called giving someone enough rope to hang themselves. Compare with Hannah's stw article and chipps comments on the forum on Jordan stalling...
  • + 2
 What did Chipp say?
  • + 4
 @rezrov: singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/unhappy-sick-bicycles-customers-beware/page/14

Seems Sick were endlessly stalling and in the end failed to answer any questions, strangely this article then pops up.
  • + 19
 There a lot of sketchy responses in here. Not exactly giving small builders a good name.
  • + 10
 They are not builders.
Hype building != Frame building
  • + 16
 PB pretty low giving them a platform when there are people hundreds out of pocket and when they've asked for a refund they are told 'its on its way'. When it isn't.

Is this the pinkbike model of journalism of the future?
  • + 12
 Indeed - where is the balance to this article...? This reads as a one sided hatchet job where what Sick says is the truth, but everyone else is lying. Very poor journalism.
  • + 9
 I thought the same thing at first, why gives these guys a platform?....but look what it's done, complete opposite, I think they are worse off for it judging by comments.
  • + 14
 Here's an idea fellas -- how about stop taking people's money for pre-orders -- that you clearly cannot produce -- and make things right with the countless people you've boned on frames....and even fucking stickers and t-shirts! You two are real pieces of work. Defensive, unprofessional, full of excuses, guilt trippers...yikes.
  • + 13
 Strange - they say their problems started when not getting enough axles, dropouts, bottom brackets and seat collars. Well at except for the dropouts all theses parts you can get from any big online dealer in 24 hours and in large numbers if you are so inclined.
  • + 13
 They’d probably get their frames more quickly if they paid the people making them: www.facebook.com/(null)?metadata=mTAiAHhJTQVen2NiBd3+DONtrupGXSkPKmjNUaQqWho0Sz18dY+EQv0GxW5E/UClAy146lRQ4j8sbGPsBsVq2PcV&sfns=monull
  • + 9
 Every one should boycott sick if they even have any business left after this debarcle And go straight to the man himself and just order from Marino and save the massive mark up they are making off his craftsmanship
  • + 5
 Link is not working for me.
  • + 5
 @rideonjon: its been removed but it was Marino posting pictures of the sick bike frames pretty much saying they are ready to ship and have been for a while but needs paying before they leave Peru
  • + 3
 @mbc92: Don’t sell it short, they were absolutely saying that the frames will only ship once they’ve been paid for them. The screenshot is still on the STW thread
  • + 3
 @mbc92: I saved the pic, will post on the forum
  • + 4
 Here's a screenshot of the post from the Singletrack forum: i.imgur.com/TNa29j3.png
  • + 9
 @dannyboybiker:

So they took pre-orders because they didn't want the risk and "pressure to succeed" that a business loan would have brought, but they're not paying their own suppliers who have already made the bikes? *deep breath* Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicks.
  • + 17
 How can PB back this article when they have bumped so many people?
  • + 15
 maybe james has been promised a frame... hahahahahahahaha
  • + 7
 @ranjomandolin: Don't buy based on Insta Hype mate Wink
  • + 8
 All PB is doing is giving them the chance to explain themselves... and/or hang themselves. It's called open press. I think it's great. I've read a few articles that make some big names in the game look like saints when I know first hand they're not. So... at least this is honest.
  • + 6
 @onemanarmy: This is hardly journalism, they dodged all the awkward questions and gave generic fluff instead of answers to the other ones. None of the poor people that are out of pocket on behalf of this shambles company are any better informed after reading this.
  • + 12
 These guys over promised and underdelivered, they don't understand how to run a proper a business, they spam social media with bs and then they expect sympathy from people. It's absurd. They're chancers who kept chancing instead of addressing their issues and focusing on delivery. And then they did it again and again and again. More products, more bullshit, more playing the victim. Personal abuse, doxxing and suchlike isn't right, but at the same time the relentless insta-bs these guys spout really does not help their cause.
  • + 3
 Yup! - amateurs!
  • + 16
 RIP Sick bikes...you buried yourself with this interview
  • + 3
 One can only hope, but pretty piss poor for the people that bought their vapourware.
  • + 11
 Now there's interesting. Article title was "THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT COULDN'T WAIT TO SEE US FAIL" which is pretty click baity and paints them as victims.And now the title is "SICK BICYCLE Co RESPONDS TO ANGER OVER UNDELIVERED FRAMES".Now either James had a change of heart (not enough to counter the softball interview) of PB editorial staff (odd concept I know) has changed it.
  • + 6
 The URL still has the original title...lol
  • + 14
 TLDR: Group of guys who know nothing about business and still don't trying to justify their failure.
  • + 10
 "Tim: At that point, we used to fight every battle. "

Translation: We blocked anyone with unfulfilled orders and deleted unfavourable comments.

I can't believe these cowboys are still hiding behind this facade. I doubt they got into this with dishonourable intentions, but their actions are nothing short of fraud.

Even today, posting a vague Instagram post about things changing (with comments disabled). How about be honest with people who have trusted you with their cash? If you can't fulfill orders, be honest and refund what you can, don't try and con more people into your black hole of deceit.
If you have investment, you will know exactly when you're in a position to fulfill orders. There is no in-between.
  • + 10
 I read stuff like this and wonder why anyone would hand money to these clowns

Cool, a new bike brand vying for your dollars. Nothing in this "interview" explains their credentials or legacy. It's hard for me to not look at this thru the lens of BMX. Any company worth a shit has a story or an owner with a definable history.

Some are beyond legendary, looking at you J.Rich.

It's something sorely lacking in "watch me skid down this hill" mtb
  • + 10
 So they didn't know how to make a frame, don't manufacture their own frames, and have terrible customer service and general business practices. What's left: marketing ("attitude").

Sure sounds exactly like MTB to me!
  • + 9
 So you went into business without a business plan and failed to produce any product after gambling that you could run the company off of "capital" generated through pre-orders alone?

Nice.


You deserve all the vitriol being directed your way from dissatisfied customers. Please fade away.
  • + 9
 The biggest thing for me is that neither of them are/want to work on this project as a job. They both are keeping their full time jobs... Doesn't sound like they are actually commited to this at all.
  • + 9
 What a bunch of boners, how much did they pay PB for this article? Even scarier if someone at PB is friends with these blowhards.
  • + 7
 So, if I'm reading this correctly, the way to make this edgy, bespoke/hand-built company successful is to make it less edgy and use a factory in Taiwan that mainstream frames come from.
...But you have to buy them sight-unseen and you might not get the product for months. Maybe it's that sense of danger that they should be marketing?
  • + 11
 Is Sick bikes the two wheeled version of Fyre Festival..?
  • + 8
 So your business model is to take pre-orders...


Jordan: Not anymore. Was. [As of May 9, 2019, the website still is accepting pre-orders]

Says it all haha
  • + 2
 The PB comment in [brackets] was the only kill-shot this article needed. Glorious.
  • + 10
 Cmon Pinkbike, you're better than this poor excuse of an article
  • + 9
 They seemed more passionate and motivated to sell shirts and stickers than their bikes.
  • + 8
 They've been described, somewhat generously perhaps, as a t-shirt company that has tried its hand at making bikes. As others have touched upon, I'm not convinced that they have brought anything to the industry that others don't do far better, unless you consider bad attitudes and poor customer service something worth paying a premium for.
  • + 9
 i think they got a bad rep from the beginning when they respond to hate publicly and don't act professional
  • + 6
 Anyone used that death from above suspension design? Does it ride well? I'm curious about building up one of my own:

www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Custom-titanium-full-suspension-bicycle-frame_60750072359.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.11.318329cdZdgz17
  • + 17
 Check the Singletrack article. On the one bike that actually got ridden the downtube folded where the shock mount is.
  • + 9
 These bikes looking f*ckin' retarded. Why would someone by one of these in the first place..?
  • + 5
 I got all excited when they showed a render of the heathen, high pivot gearbox dh bike. Then it went quite and they moved on. So f*** it I built my own high pivot dh bike.
I have a tiny business(40 hours a week) and was employed by a small business(at least 40 hours a week) at the same time... Man up feller's and get your shit together.. I also have a young family that I spend time with... Yes counting on other people sucks but you build a time line around your ordering and tell people about it. That's just part of manufacturing.. Also, don't say you are making the frames yourself when you clearly aren't.

I really did want you to shake up the industry and prosper, I still do. You had the same thoughts about things as me.. Stupid standards etc.
I reckon you could have made it if you didn't try a different frame design every 2 weeks without releasing the one from a month ago.
You've got a lot of work ahead of you if you are going to keep going. Drop the attitude that come from the tattoo world for a start.
  • + 5
 I watched their you tube videos where they were very punk rock about disrupting the industry etc etc all the tatts and stats, but they came over as very "F*** You!" which I guess the kiddies love as anti-authoritarian, but it doesn't really work as a customer service mantra. Everyone loves a "F... You" attitude - until its said to them!
  • + 9
 Not sure why Frank went into business with those two...
  • + 5
 Must be the kind of person who joins a cult. Hope he gets out soon.
  • + 2
 He didn’t.
Go and listen to the Vital MTB podcast with him
  • + 1
 @timbud: just remarking on what was written in the article.
  • + 5
 The thing that would really piss me off is seeing prototype after prototype being unveiled but never receiving the one I'd bought (or pre-ordered). It just lacks integrity. It should've also started alarm bells ringing...or at least it did for me.
  • + 10
 Couple of twats. Wow.
  • + 6
 "You can't really have it all. You can't have a tucked rear wheel and a 73 mil threaded bottom bracket and a three-inch tire"
Yes you can. RSD does it with their Middlechild model.
  • + 8
 The reason they believe this is because they are not bike designers. If they have any right to the term "designer" they can only attach "graphic" at the front of it. They can colour in a frame and make a cool looking logo (which in and of itself is subjective).

Same to be said with their comment re thick carbon cranks. They are clueless in bike design (stresses, geometry past a head angle etc), and have little knowledge of components, borne out in their carbon crank statement.
  • + 6
 @handynzl: in the beginning of the article it's stated they don't even ride bikes, in so many words. Why does anyone care what these guys say or do??
  • + 3
 They don't know what they are doing engineering wise. See the Singletrack article with picture of DFA frame failure.
  • + 4
 So Sick is actually a Chinese brand? Hmmm...interesting. So who are these two plonkers in the interview then, and what are they on about???
  • + 2
 @handynzl: As I understand it there is no such thing as copyright in China, so even if Sick had designed the frame it may well be that the factory decided to cut out the middleman and also offer it direct...
Or Sick may have just bought an off the peg frame, branded it and sold it on...
  • + 5
 @handynzl: I don't have an opinion but I love the word plonkers.. And even more so since you might say it with a nz accent
  • + 0
 @slimboyjim: you think they are frame designers with engineering experience?
  • + 2
 @sacalobra: I don't know. If I had to guess I doubt it, but I stand to be corrected...

I read all the above as two guys who were woefully out of their depth from the start, who learned their lesson the hard way. They've had others build their frames for them, and appear to be using a Chinese frame that one purchaser has had fold above the shock mount in another post... It doesn't instill confidence. Not researching the various costs involved in the process of manufacturing seems pretty short sighted too.

I genuinely hope they sort it out though, so that they can honour their promises to their customers.
  • + 4
 @slimboyjim: oh I was being sarcastic. Any person could conceivably make contact with a Chinese frame builder, give them some Geo numbers etc and start rolling frames off a production line. The funny thing here is the frame maker slapped them on Alibaba at less cost and will no doubt supply them too, all with the sick Sick logo on the chainstay yoke. So the point is, what's the point dealing with Sick? I doubt they even had any agreement in place with the frame maker that said they couldn't sell direct. Just one more nugget showing how naive these two plonkers are.
  • + 4
 @handynzl: That’s two models now on Alibaba. The second model clearly has the Sick head tube lettering
  • + 3
 @handynzl: That ti frame was probably on alibaba before Sick was a thing.
  • + 1
 @handynzl: Ha ha! Sorry bud - that was WAY over my head and I missed it completely!
  • + 7
 A bike company that calls themselves 'sick' bicycles doesn't inspire a massive amount of trust that these folks are clued into the industry one bit
  • + 4
 I listened to the inside line podcast with the owners of yeti yesterday, they used all their money and went cap in hand to friends and family and had the industry experience required to start a bike company, they didn't sell something they didn't have to customers hoping that it'd work out. I've a suspicion that I won't be listening to an interview with these guys in ten years telling me how they built a successful bike company
  • + 1
 They have a podcast episode on the hot podcast
  • + 1
 Hkt*
  • + 4
 Oh Sick, where did you go wrong?
When they started, I was a massive fan but as time has gone on... I just can't trust them.
I had the pleasures of meeting them when they just started at a local race and them seemed like sound lads.
Fast forward a year or so and, my friends and I meet Jordan at another park and got chatting. Again seemed like a sound lad. One of my mates purchased their anniversary Gen 1 Gnar frames. He had an idea to get this frame in custom colours and Sick obliged.
Have we seen said frame? Yes, in pictures...
Why hasn't he received the frame? Oh, there's a story. One, I'd like to hear from Sick themselves... Maybe we'll finally find out why at the Malverns Festival later this year...

I really do for sorry for my friend as he has waited over a year for said frame and, he like many others have been fed the same excuses all the time, with no change in sight.

Sick, I hope you sort your shit out rather than put up a post on instagram, on how you're changing or articles such as the one above.

Also liked the fact, you disabled comments for you last post on the gram, nice touch!
  • + 6
 I read that whole thing expecting to learn of some new action or result... something tangible. Nope, just a whole bunch of words.
  • + 4
 It seemed like to me they spent way to much time on all their little side projects e.g. clothing, accessories, stems, social media. Probs should have focused on establishing their company's foundation in frame production before expanding their product breadth.
  • + 9
 lol fuuck these knobends
  • + 3
 (kudos for usage of knob ends,though it should be 2 words or at least hyphenated)
  • + 3
 @watchmen: I think the k is silent so I think he means no bends.?
  • + 0
 I should clarify, I mean the silent k is correct.. I wouldn't call these guys knob ends because I'm pretty sure they didn't mean to angry people
  • + 4
 'Tim: A bike delivered late, will eventually be good. But a bad bike will always be a bad bike.

I'd have more fun in the woods on any given steep and short piece of two wheeled crap than I would waiting for a bike to arrive.
  • + 4
 SHITBYCICLE.CO.UK
you lie lying
you lie lying
you lie lying

GYPSYS....5-6 month waiting shipping my frame plus 2 month waiting dvo shock funny category your sick website 1 month ready the frame many many email James is good the size ?"yess is good fit " f*ck fit..small broke my torso pain my leeg. me sent message me need back my money no money back another hardtrail frame,,, HA HA HA shipping back mí frame 1450 gp vith shock and shipping me hardtrail frame is lower price ha ha ha UNCORECT UNCORECT you lie lying
  • + 21
 Can you try this again, but like in a way that is less stream of conscious gibberish?
  • - 5
flag Shartriloquist (May 9, 2019 at 11:53) (Below Threshold)
 @Naturel: if he slowed down and took the time, the pieces I see there suggest he’s more than capable. Perhaps it is you being the a*shole denigrating him by assuming he can’t do better?
  • + 5
 So they offered you a hardtail frame in lieu of a refund for a full suss? That takes some balls, I'll give them that. Nevermind Sick, I'm not sure PB comes out of this that well for this puff piece.
  • + 5
 yes...Tim say me shipping back full suss frame with shock.. and shipping another frame hardtrail.. hardtrail 1/3 price with full suss frame and shock ha ha ha ha and say money back NO..SHITBYCICLE....
  • + 4
 PB's question "So you're not refusing refunds?"

Sicks reply.

Sick can't refuse a refund? All the customer has to do is open a dispute? I've had refunds off sellers before. You open a dispute when the seller ignores you for long enough and if the seller is stretches out the it's on its way, it's shipping now until over your refund period. Sick keeps the money it seems.
  • + 3
 I never really checked out Sick bikes when people were going on about them, i just thought they were a couple of dudes that made a few bikes but were not selling them or some such thing. It appears they were far worse than that.
  • + 3
 All I learned from this poorly written article is to avoid this company. Yes, they are having problems, but the same problems every bike assembly company has. It's clear they don't know what they are doing and are trying to deflect by appealing to the non-conformist hipster demo they seek. Still taking preorders with no firm delivery date.
  • + 3
 Why would anyone hand over ANY amount of money to these idiots, let alone a sizeable sum? More shocking to me than the fact that they appear to have lots of unsatisfied customers, is that they have so many customers in the first place. Wtf? Who could possibly feel safe doing business with these two?
  • + 5
 I found them annoying from the first moment on, inflated show-offs, and yes, I wouldn't mind if there were no more advertisements for a lot of hot air here.
  • + 4
 Well sentence at the very beggining "We're a lot less "f*ck you," than we used to be." Worried me the most. It means that they are still somehow "f*ck you" attitude Wink thats ver bad for starting company IMO.
  • + 3
 Wow, the forums ere bad to read, but they come across as so arrogant and pass emotive. What needs to happen is every customer awaiting a frame request a refund and end their contribution to the cycling industry.
  • + 2
 This seems like a fluff-piece, no real questions asked Or answered. And the answers they do give don't seem to match up with what the customers are saying. Whether through deceit or bad management they seem to have taken the money of quite a few people who got nothing in return. And then we're dicks about it.
  • + 2
 So you do pre-orders to build the company, then the next pre-orders get the first round built so you have to have another round of pre-orders to build that next round. If this were the finance world, wouldn't that be considered a Ponzi scheme?
  • + 2
 You can see this same story over and over on just about every Kickstarter campaign out there. Amateurs with good intentions and a great idea, but absolutely no clue how to run a business or the realities of supply chain economics. Planning for 100% success is guaranteed to 100% fail.
  • + 3
 Marino now saying Sick never paid for their frames and they’re sitting at Marino Bikes.

m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/story.php?story_fbid=2155699947800272&id=134704909899796&anchor_composer=false
  • + 0
 What a bunch of wankstains. I hope PB have a word with themselves for this pathetic excuse of an interview.
  • + 2
 Sorry to say I got sucked into this Ponzi scheme for one of their chromo frames. I'm glad I came to my senses before -just before 180 days went by. It looks like PayPal will make me whole again.180 day loophole strategy I suspect. Too bad, I liked the new geo of the wolf frame but I guess I don't need another hard tail. Oh well got a Kingdom instead I love it and it came right away. I figure the English have been cracking the whip over there in China long enough to have made some good business connections. Looking hard at Oddity today - China has enough of our money...
  • + 4
 Has there ever been a Pinkbike article received as badly as this one? It seems to have missed the mark in spectacular fashion.
  • + 5
 Certainly not a double diamond level of journalism there..... more like a blue flow trail
  • + 2
 To be honest their frames were made in Peru.....not many companies based there so I would say Marino Bikes made them on their behalf. That was pretty floored if that was the case as he had a reputation for not being reliable at all.
  • + 3
 Sounds like they robbed Peter to pay Paul, thought it'd work out, now the money is spent and they're eking out what they can, if you're not good at business, leave your passion out of it, you just ruin both.
  • + 2
 okay ... I’m sure these morons... should read this, however they are probably, more likely to be spending other people’s money, on beer, s£&t tattoos and ladyboys ....
But for those who have fallen victim; to there skullduggery. Please read ... as it’s clear it’s gone beyond incompetence, and could well be fraudulent!

In common law jurisdictions, as a criminal offence, fraud takes many different forms, some general (e.g., theft by false pretense) and some specific to particular categories of victims or misconduct (e.g., bank fraud, insurance fraud, forgery). The elements of fraud as a crime similarly vary. The requisite elements of perhaps the most general form of criminal fraud, theft by false pretense, are the intentional deception of a victim by false representation or pretense with the intent of persuading the victim to part with property and with the victim parting with property in reliance on the representation or pretense and with the perpetrator intending to keep the property from the victim.[4]
  • + 2
 ???????????? I’ve read this article; which is quite frankly a load of nonsense; especially when you read the Single Track article..A couple of incompetent,egotistical chancers... utterly disgusting to continue to take money off of people, while knowing, they couldn’t resolve issues with lead times, and quality...
By all accounts didn’t like it when there F-you attitude came back and bit them in the ass!
Lies are never a good thing to tell your customers.
What’s amusing... is people thought they were cool and bought into the hype, you only had to read between the lines to realise. How unprofessional these guys are.
Sorry to be so derogatory... BUT they simply ripped people off; they should have had the intelligence to stop taking orders, when things were getting out of hand ... instead they continue through sheer arrogance! Clearly!
I do hope they actually come to there senses, and reimburse, those they have been dishonest with.
However considering they owe there suppliers money; I doubt it will happen.
My god! even Balldrick had a plan!!!!
  • + 1
 For those out there who have ordered from these guys - you may want to put your 2c here to give a better idea of how many people are actually waiting:

www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=213188&pagenum=1#commentid6730182
  • + 3
 Would anybody here order a bike (pre-order or not) from these guys after reading this article and researching the company? I'm not asking to criticize if you would.
  • + 3
 I dunno...I got halfway through the article and thought....anyone dumb enough to front these guys money, deserves to be taught a life lesson anyway.
  • + 5
 Why is the sick website still showing as taking preorders?
  • + 1
 STILL taking preorders....
  • + 1
 The bikes are beautiful but I really don't want a 'RAD BRO' responsible for every aspect of selling me a high end bicycle. The entire appeal of the attitude is weird to me.

I want a Company headed by a guy/ gal with a mean sweater vest game. He doesn't have to be a rad punk guitarist or anything; but a professional businessman that understands that you have the RAD BRO test the bikes, then you have engineers, technicians, and other professionals do everything else that is related to a bike. Which provides a consistent product that is the basis for repeat business so that they can make money.
  • + 4
 I wonder if big Frank Weldy is watching this and reconsidering having anything to do with these plums
  • + 2
 I'm sure the payments terms just changed..... cash up front!
  • + 1
 In the interest of balance ( on PB !) I bought a Grizzly Wulf Ti hardtail from Sick, paid up front knowing it was more risky than buying an established brand, but willing to take the risk to get the frame I wanted at a very good price
The Taiwan production model was clear from the start, and I was kept up to date with some delivery issues
The frame is lovely, geometry is perfect for me and quality very good
Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones, hope the other customers get sorted soon
  • + 3
 Just six minutes of this HKT interview are pretty telling: soundcloud.com/user-808908651/037-jord-tim-of-sick-bicycle-co#t=12m29s
  • + 2
 Sadly this is the way things seem to go these days. Same in my industry ( photography). Someone does something "fresh", gets Instafamous, blows up and gets busy but has no clue about running a business... crash and burn
  • + 2
 "Sadly"?? It's market survival...weed out the weak.
Have a good product, good business ethics and you'll survive and prosper. I've had clients come to me after someone closer to their location flaked out, so they pay me more and for shipping because I take care of my customer. I'm happy when incompetent people go out of business...they can create bad reputations for an industry, take work that could've been mine(until they F up and I get hired anyway). Not everyone that goes into business for themself should. It's a lot of work and these guys seem like it was more of a "why not?" scenario...and they don't even ride bikes!!!
  • + 1
 It is so cool to see how people can change before and after they f@ck up!
Now you don't have anymore people calling you a c*nt and disappearing, now they do and stay...
can't believe you still take preorders and that people are waiting for their money.
I saw a story about a guy who took you to Court (and won of course).
You wanted to make people live and experience the good MTB vibe and be all cool, and instead just f@cked up to make money. You could have put a pre-oder limit (like 50 frames per time)...instead you showed that you were there only for the $$$£££
Frown sad people make sad stories
  • + 4
 LOL what a joke.....2-3mins wasted I'll never get back. What a terrible company.
  • + 4
 Also. Canfield Bros should sue for that use of the skull logo on the head badge. Not exactly "fresh".
  • + 0
 Was looking for that comment. Not that the "Punisher" style logo is that unique.

Also, the Sick bike guys sound like a bunch of a*sholes. Too many good bikes and good companies to bother with worrying if your bike will ever show up and what happens if you need a spare part or break something?
  • + 4
 "There is no way on earth that I should be doing any form of customer service"

no idea what running a business is about...
  • + 3
 I would say if you gave these two ass clown's any money....you better call Saul.
  • + 4
 So has Frank The Welder made a bunch of frames yet?
  • + 9
 And if so, has he been paid? Will he ever be paid?

More to the point, why would this legend get into bed with these two shysters? A man of his stature should surely do his diligence and note that these two aren't exactly a pleasant proposition.
  • + 1
 @handynzl: Frank has plenty of his own issues.
  • + 1
 Can we get another thread like this for ti-springs they are equally just as bad he lies to customers and gets his parts from Alibaba and put his mark up on it.. You will also never receive your order
  • + 4
 What shit story. Fuck these guys.
  • + 3
 Most poorly conceived, ill-fated business ventures don’t get nearly this much coverage.
  • + 3
 They should call themselves 'Fyre Festival Bikes'. Seems to have the same business model...
  • + 2
 Sounds like another example of people that go into business and seriously underestimate or just flat out neglect the value of customer service.
  • + 0
 stravaigingmtb.com/2018/03/19/singletracks-post-sick-bicycles-the-birth-of-an-unusual-bike-company Some of the ambition and lightening from the beginging before they ahd their issues here.
  • + 1
 Just another small business who bit off far more than they can chew. I'm sure they wish they were still just making bikes in their shed for a few people.
  • + 16
 Ha these guys never had a shed and never built any bikes themselves.
  • + 4
 @rideonjon: I have a shed. Contact me for payment options.
  • + 2
 These guys still owe me either a Ruby Wulf or a refund......it's been a couple of months now.
  • + 4
 What everyone else said.
  • + 3
 Sooooo, 2 guys in a van down by the river...
  • + 1
 Silly inkies, you're supposed to draw up a business plan and get a loan. This relieves cash flow problems like this. Oh and you actually have to then start shipping product.
  • + 1
 Where's my frame? Where's my money? WTF? It's been months. Reminds me of that Fishbone song.....Lyin' Ass Bitch....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OuiuolN1r4
  • + 1
 If you still want your frames just get them off alibaba much cheaper

The 'DFA'
m.alibaba.com/product/60750072359/Custom-titanium-full-suspension-bicycle-frame.html
  • + 3
 never trust anyone called Jordan...
  • + 0
 Not even Nike Air?
  • + 2
 She not call you back?.....Harsh.She seemed classy.
  • + 3
 Insert funny vitriolic statement here... Cheers in advance.
  • + 4
 I think I can smell shite. Yes, I can definitely smell shite.
  • + 0
 @km79: Did you wipe properly?
  • + 3
 Sick, or muerto?
  • + 1
 On the plus side, I hear that Sick are the official sponsor for the next Fyre Festival.
  • + 2
 anyone buy a custom frame from blkmkrt?
  • + 1
 So this is where you draw the line at unit conversion. No PSI/bar, no lb/kg, but USD and GBP, sure.
  • + 2
 You are a bunch of liars, thieves and clowns! Delete that bunch of knobs.
  • + 1
 Luckily they don't make craft beer, image waiting at the bar for 6 months for a pint that wont arrive.
  • + 1
 Just by listening to there podcast on the hkt podcast you could tell what sort of blokes they are.
  • + 2
 Laharharhrharharharharharhar.......
  • + 3
 F*ck these guys
  • + 10
 @CosmicCycles That's a hard pass.I don't do beards.
  • + 1
 Their DFA Ti frame has been spotted on Ali Express direct from the people who actually fabricated it, for $1100.
  • + 1
 What i want to know is how much company money they spend on Heroin and transvestite hookers each month.
  • + 4
 I want to see photos of their personal cars - see where the money went.
  • + 1
 ????????????????
  • + 2
 sick, as in ill?
  • + 7
 Sick as in close to death in this companies case.
  • - 3
 They may have a great bike but they have no clue how to run a business. More common than you think.
Are these bikes manafactured in China? If so you need some one to visit the factory almost on a daily basis. To ensure quality control.
Sick bikes though.
  • + 1
 “Sorry guys, we were Sick.”
  • + 1
 Bunch of absolute pricks. Golf? These twats look like baristas.
  • + 0
 What are the chances of a sick bikes, waki and trump collaboration frameset?
Pre order obviously.
  • + 2
 Reeks of trainwreck
  • + 1
 Hate to see companies fail, but stick to selling t shirts & stickers.
  • + 4
 Why? Companies fail for a reason. The market will dictate who survives and these guys obviously shouldn't. I don't think they can be called a "company" anyway. Two dudes that kind of work at it and don't even ride bikes!!
  • + 1
 Who knew starting a company would be so hard?
  • + 5
 Not these two. Apparently in their world, thirty hours a week is too long to work...all successful companies require far fewer hours of personal investment, surely? Razz
  • + 0
 Are they still around? Thought they got plundered at londons bike show!!!
  • + 1
 Ponsey scam?
  • + 0
 Not much going on in the race/bike industry today eh Pinkbike?
  • + 0
 They Who Shall No Be Named
  • + 1
 Fuck sick bikes
  • + 0
 I don't give a shit to that soap opera...
  • - 2
 Didn’t read also. Looked at the bike, first word that came to mind is ugly
  • - 3
 I think these guys need another chance. They are so open in this interview it put a tear in my eye. Let's all give them a big pinkbike group hug and all be friends.
  • + 35
 That's just the Canadian in you talking........pretend to be more southern.
  • + 5
 @watchmen: I think One mind is taking the piss.
  • + 3
 @LAT2: r/whoosh.Bless
  • + 4
 @watchmen: I upvoted not because I agree or disagree with whether they should be given another chance, but because I found this hilarious
  • + 1
 @watchmen: I appreciate your blessing.
  • + 3
 @Shartriloquist: I do believe it is called homour (or in Amerinese 'humor') and specifically a branch of humour known as 'Irony' .Not because it has metallic overtones but that it is the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite,for emphatic effect.
But many thanks for clarifying your position.
Have an up vote on me.
  • + 4
 @watchmen: Actually, you described sarcasm...
  • + 2
 @watchmen: Easy watchmeister! I was laughing with you here lol. It was your sarcasm and portrayal of the general American/Canadian dispositions I found funny (as an American!)
  • + 0
 @Shartriloquist: Don't lie.Americans are immune to sarcasm (I met one once....it was ghastly).
@handynzl: Only because you're upside down.If you turn it the right way up it's ironnie.
  • + 0
 Bikes look garbage tbh
  • + 0
 This is gonna be sweet..
  • - 1
 bbbbbbbwwwwwaaahahahahhaha
  • + 0
 SOME not all frames....
  • + 0
 Oof.
  • - 1
 I love their titanium bars! Not in my price range though sadly
  • - 2
 The boys may have screwed the pooch but I'd still love a titainium GNarcissist.
  • - 3
 Didn't read it...
  • - 3
 Rubbish /thread.
  • - 3
 Moral of the story ? Buy a specialized
  • - 2
 *Grabs big mac and waits for show to unfold*
  • + 6
 The Big Mick from McDowell's is way better than the Big Mac.
  • + 1
 @Naturel: Not me. I've got a pile of oranges and a couple strawberries.
  • + 2
 @onemanarmy: Just a couple of strawberries? We're in peak strawberry season, they be tasting so good right now.
  • + 2
 @BoobyHill: LOL. Definitely. Mine are fresh from the grower. But I was down to 5... figured 1 for each kid. 3 for me. Seems fair. LOL!

We're definitely ramping up. I'd say peak season isn't for another month or so though. Still kind of early season here. Very delicious but slightly tart.
  • + 2
 @onemanarmy: That's a good way to balance the distribution of strawberries.

I'm so very jealous of your access to great strawberries out in California, but yes they have been a little tart so I can't wait for the true peak season.
  • + 2
 @BoobyHill: Give it a month and buy anything coming out of Watsonville. I'll grab some out of the field and toast you with some cool whip... and try not to get shot this time.
  • + 2
 @BoobyHill: You get treated like royalty too
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