2015 Specialized Demo - Design and Development

Aug 13, 2014
by Mike Levy  
 
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Specialized Demo 2015


The Demo name has been in Specialized's lineup for nearly as long as riders have been building and sending moves that require such machines, and the bike has evolved over the years from something designed for freeriding to a low and slack bike meant for racing the clock on Sunday. But even though the geometry has matured drastically over that time, the five previous iterations all shared the same basic suspension layout, and its silhouette is one that's instantly recognizable by any mountain biker who's owned some baggy riding shorts or a full face helmet. 2015 sees Specialized make a wholesale change in the bike's design, however, and the result is a fresh looking 200mm travel, 650B wheeled downhill rig that is built almost entirely from carbon fiber and features a stunning one-sided seat mast that is sure to be even more polarizing than the wheel size the bike rolls on.




2015 Specialized Demo Explained


Views: 58,344    Faves: 186    Comments: 17

Filmed and edited by Mind Spark Cinema


Just like the five previous Demo platforms that came before it, the 2015 Demo is the brainchild of Jason Chamberlain, Senior Design Engineer at Specialized, and his aims with the new design were much the same as with the previous race oriented Demo, but to also take them to the next level. "About two and a half years ago I started putting my ideas down, and the goals were lighter weight, better bump performance, and lower center of gravity," he said of those early thoughts. Those goals aren't too surprising given the Demo's intentions as a race machine, but it's the last objective on that list that had him considering moving away from the suspension layout that we all picture when we think of the Demo. He explained that the bike's concentric bottom bracket pivot is the result of wondering what the bike would look like if he moved the main pivot down a few inches from where you would otherwise expect to see it, and then reconfigured the rest of the pivot points accordingly. But while less weight and a lower center of gravity were areas that he wanted to improve on, his number one priority with the new bike was to have it carry momentum better. The 650B wheels and the improved angle of attack that they offer over 26" hoops greatly helps that cause, but, somewhat unexpectedly, it wasn't a foregone conclusion that the bike would roll on 'tweener wheels. "When it comes to wheel size, we explored everything: 26, 29, and 650B,'' he explained to Pinkbike when questioned about if a 29" wheeled downhill bike was ever in the cards. ''We think that for this platform, 650B is best because it give you a balance of light weight and quick wheel response, and also allows you to package the rear wheel in a short chain stay.


2015 Specialized Demo Details

• FACT 11m frame: carbon front and rear triangles, link
• FACT 10m frame: carbon front triangle, seat stays, aluminum link and chain stays
• Rear wheel travel: 200mm
• Wheel size: 650B
• New FSR suspension design
• Revised Style-Specific Geometry
• 63.5° head angle
• 430mm chain stay
• Ohlins TTX shock
• Full 1.5'' head tube
• Internal cable routing w/ interior guides
• ISCG 05 chain guide tabs
• BB30 bottom bracket
• 12 x 135mm rear axle
• Frame weight: 7.6lb (FACT 11m w/o shock)
• Availability: January 2015
• MSRP: TBA


Specialized Demo 2015
bigquotesThis is the sixth generation of the Demo platform and we've always had a lot of positive feedback on certain attributes of the bike, and we've tried to carry those on. Even though it's a radically new re-configuration, the heart of the performance is still very similar to the bike that people have known and loved for years.- Jason Chamberlain, Senior Design Engineer, Specialized

The topic of geometry, and especially chain stay length, is one that's hounded Specialized all year, mainly due to team rider Aaron Gwin experimenting with a longer rear end that was custom made for his race bike. And while it was certainly no secret that Gwin was looking for some added length to improve stability, likely due to his previous experience on longer bikes, his teammates seemed to be getting along just fine with the stock geometry. "When we brought Aaron on board last year we did a lot of research into geometry because he wanted a frame that he felt he could go fast on and something that he was familiar with, so we made a lot of options for him to race on,'' Chamberlain said of the in-season changes to Gwin's bike. ''Ultimately, we ended up with one single geometry that he felt fast on, but at the same time still honoured the geometry that Troy had been winning on before that. So now we have a bike with a longer chain stay by 10mm than the previous Demo, which is still, for a 650B bike, probably one of the shortest chain stays out there. We also keep the low bottom bracket that is very characteristic of Specialized bikes."







Asymmetrical Frame

If there's one thing that might steal attention away from Specialized anticipated decision to go with 650B wheels, it would be the bike's single sided frame. Technically speaking, it's only the seat mast zone that has gone to a one-sided design, something that was made possible by this area no longer having to serve as home for the linkage to pivot off of, as well as Specialized's commitment to manufacturing the frame out of carbon fiber from the get-go rather than debuting an aluminum version first. ''With this new FSR layout we realized that the upper portion of the seat tube structure only does one thing: it holds up your seat post. We didn't need it to be as massive, and we didn't need the structure to straddle the shock like it had in the past,'' Chamberlain explains when questioned as to how the idea came about. That's all fine and dandy, but we had to ask why, especially when you consider that it doesn't seem to offer any sort of performance advantage. So, what's the point? "It allows the frame to be packaged very tight and very narrow, and it allows very easy access to the shock,'' a reference to a racer who may need to either easily reach the Ohlins TTX's dials or even make a shock swap in a hurry. A more important point is that it will likely mean that any shock made in the future, regardless of its silhouette, will fit the bike due to the clearance that the single sided design affords, especially because Chamberlain has also moved away from the clevis rearward shock mount system of the previous Demo.

The carbon fiber front triangle is molded in two sections - the seat mast and bottom bracket area, and the forward section of the triangle - and then bonded together afterwards, but the single sided design is also said to allow for simpler and more consistent construction methods due to a less complicated procedure in the molding process. Does it make for a lighter frame? Although the 2015 Demo S-Works FACT 11m frame, with its carbon front triangle, carbon link, and carbon chain and seat stays is claimed to weigh 7.6lb without a shock, which is nearly a full pound lighter than the previous Demo, Chamberlain did say that the single sided mast area likely saves only a marginal amount of weight. The FACT 10m frame features the same carbon fiber front triangle and carbon seat stays, but uses an aluminum link (which weighs 240 grams more than the carbon unit) and chain stay assembly.

2015 Specialized Demo
  Early sketches of possible 2015 Demo designs by Lead Industrial Designer Jamie Stafford, with the blue frame at center being close to the final design.






Suspension Design - The Same but Different

The previous iteration of the Demo that we're all familiar with, the design that led to oh-so-many jokes about surplus chain stays, was a four-bar, FSR layout with eight pivot locations (four on each side). Despite appearing to be quite different from that bike, the 2015 Demo also sports eight pivot locations and a four-bar, FSR layout that, according to Chamberlain, sports very similar kinematics and instant center location. That said, there's a pretty good chance that even your non-biking spouse would be able to tell you that the two designs look drastically different, likely followed by one of those eye rolling "what does it matter?" faces, as it's pretty obvious that Chamberlain and his team have done much more than a simple re-working of the Demo's back end. The asymmetrical design's main pivot rotates concentrically around the bottom bracket, and its 200mm of rear wheel travel is controlled via a custom tuned Ohlins TTX shock that Specialized says features less mid-speed compression for more control on initial impacts, but also increased high-speed compression damping for more control when pushing hard.

Specialized Demo
  The new, 200mm travel Demo utilizes a revised suspension layout compared to the previous Demo platforms, but it's still a four-bar, FSR design.


Concentric Bottom Bracket Pivot - There has to be a good reason for Specialized to shrug off all of the expected Rotec comments that are no doubt going to come their way, and it turns out that reason is all about center of gravity and lowering its location compared to the old bike, which is the reason that the main pivot now calls the bottom bracket home rather than sitting up higher as is more common. Why is this important? It's probably simplest to explain it in exaggerated terms: picture yourself holding a 10ft long pole that has a 20lb weight on the end and then holding it out in front of you and swinging it back and forth. Now do the same thing with a 5ft long pole with the same weight - it's not only easier to start the swinging motion with the shorter pole, it also takes a lot less effort to change its direction from left to right. What the hell does that have to do with mountain bikes? Well, the pole is the bike and the weight is its suspension components, which are the heaviest part of the frame. The lower those components sit (the shorter the pole), the easier it will be to move the bike around. Yes, we're talking small percentages here, not game changing stuff, but there's no doubting that the new bike features a lower COG than the Demo we're all familiar with. "I started by thinking about what it would look like if we just moved everything down three inches, and naturally what happened was that the main pivot moved into the same real estate as the bottom bracket, so it became natural to just integrate those into one pivot,'' Chamberlain explained about the design. ''Then I reconfigured all the other pivots around that. The FSR, four-bar performance is still there even though the pivots are in radically different locations."

Specialized Demo
  The bike's main pivot rotates concentrically around the bottom bracket, with the pivot axle also serving as home to the BB30 bottom bracket bearings.


Does the concentric pivot dictate the axle path, though? And couldn't you easily run it as a single speed setup due to the lack of chain growth? Sorry, wrong on both accounts. The rear axle isn't located on the chain stays, but rather on the seat stays that pivot off of the chain stay, meaning that the path of the axle is a separate deal that's not tied into the concentric main pivot. And speaking of axle path, Chamberlain wasn't sold on the idea of a drastically rearward trajectory in the never ending search for better momentum carrying abilities, a topic that seems to make up much of the word count in many reviews and marketing spiels relating to a lot of downhill bikes: ''At the onset of this project we purchased every bike out there with every imaginable wheel path so that we could really understand them,'' he said when questioned on the subject. ''We filmed them all from the side with high-speed film and really got an idea about what bikes did what. What we found was that we could achieve the same level of performance through a properly tuned FSR with an Ohlins shock as you could with some of the radical designs with crazy wheel paths.'' He went on to cite the drastic geometry changes, possible chain tension issues, and also difficulty lifting the front end for a manual due to the lengthening rear end as it compresses as all being valid reasons for tackling the momentum carrying challenge from different angles.

Going with a concentric main pivot wasn't without its challenges, however, as it means that the area around the bottom bracket becomes much more complicated than a more traditional layout. First, the massive main pivot bearings - there's one on each side of the shell - are pressed into machined aluminum bores, with a milled out spacer in between for each bearing's inner race to come up against. The pivot axle is equally massive, having to run through the swing arm and thread into the non-drive side, and it also serves as home to the BB30 bottom bracket bearings that the bike uses. Oh, and because the carbon swing arm rotates around the bottom bracket shell, Specialized has been able to locate the bike's ISCG 05 chain guide tabs on it, thereby allowing the guide to follow the movement of the rear axle and chain as the bike goes through its travel.








Frame Details

The Demo's revised suspension layout presented a few fresh challenges to the design team, especially when talking about lateral rigidity. The goal was not to make a stiffer bike than what they already had, however, only to equal the numbers of the existing Demo - too rigid and a bike can feel harsh, especially when leaned over in a corner and on an angle that doesn't allow the suspension to absorb the ground. And while you might assume that matching the current Demo shouldn't have been a difficult task, a look at the new layout from above shows that the left and ride side seat stays are actually completely separate units that are no longer tied together with a bridge over the tire like on the old design, meaning that matching the old bike in term of stiffness might not be such an easy job. Specialized approached the challenge from two different directions, literally, with a new keyed 12 x 135mm thru-axle at one end, and a massive rocker link at the other.

Specialized Demo
  The less expensive Demo 8 I Carbon uses an aluminum link (left), while the S-Works model sports a carbon fiber version that Specialized claims saves a whopping 240 grams.


Rocker Link - The previous design saw the shock actuated essentially by the swing arm itself, with just a short clevis between the two, while this new layout has the shock being compressed by the rocker link. That's not the rocker link's only job, though, as it replaces about a third of the length of the seat stays stays as well and also must play a significant role in the frame's lateral rigidity. There are two versions of the link; a hollow carbon unit coming stock on the high-end bike and frame kit, and an aluminum version that weighs 240 grams more being utilized on the less expensive Demo 8 I Carbon. The carbon link might look relatively simple, but it's actually a mostly hollow piece with internal carbon ribs that are strategically placed to increase both strength and rigidity. Tight confines are tricky when it comes to being able to compact the carbon enough to remove any voids in the walls, which is why the cutaway of the link shown below reveals small amounts of foam in such places, and each pivot location features aluminum bearing journals rather than having the sealed bearings be pressed directly into the carbon.

Specialized Demo
  A look inside the carbon rocker link shows the internal ribbing that helps increase rigidity and strength (left), and the foam elements can also be seen in the tighter confines (right).


Proper alignment is critical given that the link plays such a major role on the frame, and adding the aluminum bearing journals after manufacturing the link wouldn't guarantee that it would be up to spec. The answer was to install the still un-machined aluminum components during the molding process, with the carbon completely covering each of the small separate aluminum sections before being machined away along with all but only the minimum amount of metal required to serve as home for each bearing. The whole process ensures that not only is each bearing journal in perfect alignment, but also as piece of mind when it comes to replacing pivot bearings down the road that they won't need to be pressed in and out of fragile carbon bores.

L7 Square Axle - The job of upping frame rigidity doesn't fall on the rocker link's shoulders alone, with Specialized employing a keyed 12 x 135mm thru-axle at the other end that they say helps to have the new Demo match the older design when put to the test. Non-round thru-axles are nothing new, of course, but Specialized referring to the axle as being square is a bit misleading as it's round for its entire length except for each end, and it is compatible with any 12 x 135mm hub. It sports a square, conical shape to each end that nests into the frame to better tie the left and right seat stay assemblies together.

Specialized Demo
  A square, conical end to the axle sees it key into the frame to minimize flex (left). A small aluminum guard can be seen at the end of the non-drive side chain stay, an addition that has been made to protect the carbon from the disc rotor when removing and installing the wheel.






Style-Specific Sizing

Specialized feels that seat tube length should have next to nothing to do with downhill bike sizing, and that choosing the correct size for you should come down more to top tube length and reach than anything else. This approach makes a lot of sense and is one that you'll find in the BMX and dirt jump worlds where handling and being able to throw the bike around means everything and proper leg extension counts for nothing. They feel that the same principles apply to downhill bikes, and that as long as the seat tube is low enough to afford enough clearance, the bike's length should be the deciding factor when it comes to sizing. Style-Specific Sizing, or S3 geometry for short, is the realization of this, with the new Demo being available with four different top top lengths that are split between two relatively short seat tube heights.
2015 Specialized Demo
The idea behind S3 is to allow the consumer to choose the size that best suits their riding style and terrain. For instance, at 5' 9" I've often found that I can ride either a medium or large traditionally sized bike but usually prefer to go with the longer option due to the added stability of its stretched out wheelbase. Specialized calls their sizes short, medium, long, and extra-long, and if I was looking for a more lively, playful machine I might prefer the medium length Demo. Team rider Mitch Ropelato, at 5' 8", goes with the medium for this exact reason, but Gwin says that he prefers the long for its more stable wheelbase, despite being the same height as Mitch. Specialized Development Rider Brad Benedict is 6' 1" and reaches for a long Demo for days in the park but an extra-long for race weekends. The two seat tube lengths - 394mm for the short and medium, 419mm for the long and extra-long - are both short enough to even allow a relatively small rider to try out a longer bike if they're really looking for that added predictability that comes from a long wheelbase.






S-Works Demo 8
Specialized Demo 2015
Specialized Demo 2015

Demo 8 I Carbon
Specialized Demo 2015
Specialized Demo 2015

S-Works Demo 8 Frame
Specialized Demo 2015





That's a load of information to digest, especially when all that really counts is how the 2015 Demo performs on the trail. We'll be spending the next two days in the Whistler Bike Park with both a brand new 2015 Demo and last year's Demo to find out exactly how it's different from the old bike, so stay tuned for a comparison article that goes well beyond the usual "First Ride" impressions.

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350 Comments

  • + 287
 Cannondale definitely need to come out with a 200ml lefty to level this babe out
  • + 155
 where do you mount the water bottle?
  • + 25
 Lefty fork with Righty frame. That's gonna be the Frankenstein of mountain bike. This Demo looks sick if you look at it from the left side or right side only, but as a whole piece it's just too ugly for me. For that price I'd like my frame to be finished.
  • + 40
 this is where the ispiration came from SX trail earlier model
fotoalbum.mtb-forum.it/albums/25162/thumbs_800/835945.jpg
  • + 6
 I've got one hand on my right and one on left. It's the same with legs, ears, eyes, and bike sides. This way neither lefty, nor demo is for me, it is enough to have chain on one side and brakes on the other for my asymmetry needs.
  • + 12
 lefty's hurt my eyes
  • + 3
 All this minimal bike stuff just hurts my brain...
  • + 36
 Ugly or not, anyone who's ever changed the shock on a demo appreciates this.
  • + 6
 what if your wearing uber baggy pants and somehow it begins to eat your pants mid way down track...
  • + 5
 3:50 that saddle is soooo anoying !!! i hope this time the demo wont cost 3 billions Smile
  • + 2
 yeah yeah..... "you might end up dead" is my middle name, suckers!
  • - 9
flag jedrzeja (Aug 13, 2014 at 9:31) (Below Threshold)
 @halton So you should appreciate a shelf or a drawer even more. Just put a shock there and you don't even need to mount it. If a shock is set just perfectly and all works well, why would I need to change a shock more than once a year. Bike should first of all work well, than look and in the end be easy to maintain, right?
Afterall it is also easy to access a shock in frames like Knolly, Giant, Canyon, but they just have both sides there. As for me Spec released an experiment and it was not so hard to predict that there would be more haters. There is not much sitting in a DHwc, so thinking this way, why would I need a seat at all? It would be at least 1kg lighter without a saddle, post, tube, clamp etc.
  • + 5
 My seat has literally saved my ass hundreds of times. On a dh bike, or any bike designed to be chucked about as mentioned above, its not a really seat, its a crash pad/steering aid and the fact that you can sit on it is just a handy side effect.
  • + 2
 Once you said that a saddle ain't needed to ride down a hill i knew you don't know shit about riding a bike, first of all if you ain't seating on it alott doesn't mene that you don't need it to control your bike lol
  • - 6
flag jedrzeja (Aug 13, 2014 at 14:46) (Below Threshold)
 After reading all your rude points about my riding knowledge, I admit it is just necessary to have the fifth control point of a seat located between knees to control lateral leans. It was a retorical digression just for the sake of wide considerring. By making a seattube less stable Specialised questions it even more than me. Now I am asking what if I heavy rider lands a big air on this demo and misses one of his pedals? It's usually painfull and ends with using a seat like this "crash pad" which was mentioned by @gabriel. I landed this way several times and I know seat rails usually bend so much that there is nothing more to do than buy a new seat. So what if frame cracks after such a landing?
  • + 3
 then... it is broken. but i think, there are many frames which are much less strong on the seat tube. spesh guys really do their homework.
  • + 0
 @bOObdesign I hope you are right, but I would really appreciate some examples of frames which you think have weaker seattubes.
  • + 1
 all i can do is guess.... but how about mondraker summum, morewood makulu or santa cruz v10.
  • + 2
 mondraker summum? they have one of the more "normal" front ends of any dh bike. V-10 I will admit looks weak in the seat mast area, especially with the top sus linkage hanging off of it, but tell me....have you ever seen a broken one?
  • + 4
 as often as you have seen a broken 2015 demo. and we probably never will. thats what i wanted to say
  • + 3
 yes, that was my point too. these companies dont fuck about, it would hurt their rep waaaay too much to produce something that will break regularily
  • - 2
 From all of what I have analyzed about the V10, the seattube takes at least 30% of its support from the upper carbon link and the swingarm, regardless of its position. This is why it is quite genious in my opinion.

@gabriel Still it is a rider that risks health a some sense of psychilogic confidence is also important. I am just discussing.
  • + 2
 the seat mast is in no way supported by the rocker linkage. for a start its attached with bearings. the linkage literaly cannot offer any vertical support. side loads it could certainly help with, but given that the mast is solid but the linkage arrangment goes through 4 other pivot points before it reaches anything solid, i think we can assume the linkage offers little to no support at all in any direction.
  • + 1
 the linkage supports the mast as long as the rear wheel is on the ground. thats pretty clever. but i wouldnt say the seattube is stronger than the one on the demo. anyway... maybe the problem is, that people underestimate the strength of carbon. that demo rocks!
  • + 2
 So no alloy ? Wtf
Way exclude half your market , don't get me wrong I love it
  • - 2
 @gabriel. Provided that there is a shock and a coil or air spring there when you ride a V10, the support is given. It is not a solid support. The seattube carbon composite can be made kind of flexible, so it does not have to be a solid support. When you look at a V10 frame, the width of the seattube mounting just before it becomes the front "triangle" seems too weak. Especially when you immagine a 140kg rider missing a pedal while landing. I wanted to email santa cruz with such a question, but if you look twice it only makes sense with my explanation. I remember they give 5 years of guarantee and everyone would place a V10 in first five of the best frames in the world, so it cannot show such a a big mistake there. When you sit hard on a seat of a V10 the seattube is supported by the upper link, swingarm, lower link and shock tension all together, in any direction of vertical plane and in any point of travel. Horisontal plane support is mainly due to the distance between bearings of pivots and lateral rigidity of those moving parts. Practicly in any direction there is at least 30% support, provided that there is any shock. I haven't seen any frame resisting a load without a shock, so this is the genious assumption there. It has to have a shock mounted there, and all the parts like both links, all the bearings etc., so there is no way of loading the seattube without this complex support. Apart from this, if you look at it from my point of view, it seems more than enough strong to deserve 5 years guarantee, right? Santa Cruz also provides with a lifetime bearings durability to ensure nobody disassembles the important support.
  • + 1
 No. The top link provides NO vertical support and very limited side to side support. It physically CAN NOT offer vertical support as it has a pivot at both ends. Think about it. If you snapped the seat mast it would not remain held in place by the top linkage. It would flap all over the place, as would the rear swingarm.
  • + 0
 youre wrong....sorry
  • + 2
 no I am not. If you think I am, feel free to explain how. You will find it difficult.
  • + 0
 fanatikbike.com/merchant/1547/images/zoom/13-frame-v10c-red-01.jpg

puh... not easy.
i try ( u should feel honoured... my lifetime is super important Smile ) ! .... just imagine the bike is on the ground ( which is essential to put real stress on the seattube )... if there is weight on the pedals or not doesnt really matter. because the wheels are on the ground and there is a damper in the frame, the swing arm just stays where it is or maybe moves a bit upwards. and the upper link connects the seattube with that swing arm. the link defines the distance between swing arm and the seat tube. when u now put force on the saddle, the link will support the seat tube because it is supportet by the swingarm, which is supportet by rearwheel, lower link and damper. .... i hope, someone understands what im writing
  • - 2
 @bOObdesign Agreed. Thanks. This is a paraphrase of what I was trying to say.
@gabriel You're doubts as well as this discussion is helpful. This is why I will try to explain it again, but in one more different way. I bet you've seen a parade or some circus clowns who are trying to keep an umbrella or a long stick in vertical posidion by supporting it with just one finger or a palm. You can try it at home. Take an umbrella or any long stick like a pencil, a rod or something like that. Put it on your open palm and try to keep it steady in vertical position. You will probably move your hand around back and front, from side to side in almost horisontal plain to keep it beneath the mass centre of the umbrella. This is close to how the V10 upper link works to support the seattube. Since the umbrella is still in the air, you cannot deny you're supporting it up even when your hand is moving. Your hand is supported by your moving spine and legs and finally by the ground you're standing on. The V10 seattube stays there using similar rules. Links are like bones, Pivots are like joints and a shock is like a muscle. It does not matter if its support moves. It works in each position because there is a shock tension and the whole system to hold it. The weakening of the joining between the seattube and the main frame is designed especially to make it a bit flexible in this point. This is because the support we are trying to clarify is dynamic. Supports changes from stronger to weaker depending on shock tension, load and terrain. Too rigid seattube joining would crack. It has to bend a bit to stay strong. Just like plants structures under wind and the whole idea of carbon composite. Notice the frame is only offered in carbon version, because it is only possible (or much easier) to make it this way. Aluminium would be too rigid and would probably demand some additional type of pivot there.
  • + 1
 although I am in no way trying to say that the v-10 is not strong enough, quite the opposite in fact, saying that the swingarm supports the seat tube is akin to saying the lifting cable on a crane in some way supports the crane when the load being lifted is resting on the floor. it is the opposite of the truth.

I understand your likening it to a skeleton, which allows for movement whilst remaining flexible, but you have overlooked the fact that the skeleton is held up by the interplay of forces between bone and muscle, bones without muscles would flop to the floor. Muscles without bones would do the same. They need each other to perform the task of supporting your structure.

The top link on a v-10 is essentially similar to a bone with no muscular support. when unladen it would flop freely if it wasnt supported by the seat tube and swingarm. In this example the shock plays the role of "the muscle", but the shock is not directly connected to the upper link. This is why the upper link can offer no vertical support to the seat mast, in the same way the cable on a crane does not hold the crane up. That is not a very clear explanation I know, but I hope it helps.
  • - 2
 Crane cable comparison is completely irrelevant. The skeleton and muscle comparison is better. Get rid of muscles and skeleton colapses. Take away the shock from a V10 frame and it won't stand by its own, not even mentioning any rider nor landing. Springs are signed with lbs/inch notes, e.g. 500x3.00 which means it needs 500 lbs (about 250kg) to be contracted by one inch only, out of three available. This is how strong is the muscle which keeps the skeleton in position supporting everything in the bike. Upper link is directly connected to swingarm, which is directly connected to lower link, which is directly connedted to the shock (the muscle). There could be another 10 parts between them and it still means that the shock directly influences the upper link position. If you are still thinking about crane cable, there are several changes obligatory to obtain any resemblance. Cable should be shifted into something that can be pushed as well as pulled. So a rigid beam or a column. One end of it should be moved around on ground by some controled wheels (torque, brake and traction), which could hold the weight of the crane arm. The V10 seatube acts like a crane arm and upper link acts like a crane cable only when flying. It actually lifts the rear wheel, cassette, swingarm etc. but together with shock oil damping force pulling the front mounting of the shock attached to the main frame. I think your problem gists in direction of forces that should be considered. Rolling on ground, swingarm and wheel are supporting rider (seat). During air time it is completely opposite (swingarm and wheel are hanging). The second problem is thinking that the seattube provides the only support. No, it is no more than half of it. The main support is the shock mounted to the main frame, as well as the main load is in the bottom bracket nor seat tube. Nobody rides downhill sitting. The additional 500mm of stroke provided by legs is necessary to keep control.
  • + 0
 The crane/cable comparison is actually the more relevant of the two. The linkage provides as much support to the seat mast as a cable provides to a crane. There is no muscle (shock) attached to the upper link, so if the seat mast were to snap, it would simply flop around totally unsupported. Imagine that, if the seat mast was only attached to the top link and not connected to the front triangle, then tell me that the linkage supports the mast.
  • - 1
 Assuming you're right. There is broken connection between seat tube and front traingle. The narrow section of the connection, which I described to be a bit flexible, broke down and the seat tube can move around the pivot of the upper link. Still you cannot take it away. The upper link swings around its pivot attached to the swingarm and the other end moves free flopping around with the seat mast, exactly like you describe it. Still you cannot move it straight up or down more than the range of the upper link which is an orbital movement. So if you repair the connection, you know that it cannot flop around the upper link radius anymore, but it stops it from moving down or up. If there was no shock, a broken seat tube would go down or up as much as the range of all links and swingarms allow. Shock tension slows down the movement acting counter way to the point of a dynamic balance. If you sit of the seat tube, you push the bike down. This contracts the spring through all the levers of links and swingarms. Spring catches its sag and stops on some suspended level. This level hold the rigid swingarm in its stable position. Now you can put anything on the swingarm, like a seat post. It's done here through a link with pivots on both ends, so if you push it down, it will try to swing. The obvious connection (the flexible one) with the front triangle stops it from swinging and everything is balanced... in each position of the swingarm, because there is shock tension in each position. If you take away the shock, have the frame held by the bottom braket and head tube only and try to sit on the seat, the seat tube will brake under around 30-40% less of a load than with a propper shock.
  • + 3
 i wont read that
  • - 1
 @bOObdesign You don't have too. It is still all about the same. Just paraphrasing and explaining how on Earth the V10 seat tube can be supported by its rear suspension. It still seems @gabriel still does not feel like trying to understand, or what is more likely, is playing with me just to test my patience, language skills I don't know what else. Who could possibly understand a woman?
  • + 2
 no i am not trying to test your patience, i am trying to correct your wrong assumption that that the seat mast on a v10 is supported by the upper link. i cannot think of any other way to put it tho. you are just wrong.
  • + 0
 Watch this Gabriel: vimeo.com/m/103472235
  • + 0
 I felt the lack of Benjamin Blumchen in this movie so much, that I can't help with sitting on my bike for a while just to balance it. "When you can't tell your friends from your enemies it's time to go."
  • + 0
 Hmmm... Dont really understand what u are talking but i guess benjamin blumchen is your friend... And still youre right, its time To leave this chat Big Grin
  • + 130
 "A much simpler bike that's easier to make" yet more expensive... Pricing in bikes needs to be going DOWN as the sport grows not UP, particularly when it seems unjustified!
  • + 17
 Until the world's dentists find a new fad (or lose their credit cards) prices will go up.
  • + 12
 Some time ago, I actually had a discussion at the LBS with the owner, this is roughly what he said about his experience of the bike industry:

"simpler bike that's easier to make and yet sells more expensive"
He said he stopped selling big brands for that reason - (and now only sells frames he designs on his own and welded by some local pro welder).

He also said that there was such a huge move on carbon mainly because it take way less time to make a carbon frame than to weld properly a metal frame. Same stuff for press fit BB (which can be a creaking pain in the arse): a threadless BB is much faster to make. The miracle with carbon is that it takes less time to manufacture and yet sells more expensive: win/win.

He finally told me about some famous wheel manufacturer (Mavic not to cite them) tech center guy on the phone that once told him that they "redesigned" some wheelset because the older model was "too strong" and customers did not return enough of them for buying new parts/wheels.

I found it interesting...
  • + 29
 Someone's having you on about the carbon fibre, the man hours involved in laying up carbon are just as high as setting tubes in a jig and welding, the cost of making (and re-making, replacing) moulds for carbon is even higher. Spot on about press fit bottom brackets though.
  • + 7
 The extra money we pay is mainly from marketing costs. A Specialized customer will pay every euro that the company spends on promoting their products, including every word in this article. (or is this a press release? who knows?)
  • + 12
 by the way, the frame looks terrific
  • + 16
 BUT IT HAS BEEN! Look at the status! For a frame like this you are not only paying for manufacturing costs but countless hours of r&d, engineering, and testing. That is why it is so expensive. If you want a cheaper bike there are plenty of options out there.
  • + 6
 Carbon molds are a one-time up front cost when you buy them. The expertise to properly weld an alumincum frame is also more difficult and takes longer to acquire than laying up carbon. Welding is an art and a science. You can train someone how to lay carbon up much quicker, and it is a repeatable process from there. Also, don't forget that aluminum frames then need to be heat treated and realigned prior to final finishing, which is another step in the process that takes time.
  • + 4
 "Yes, we decided to make the frame simplier and easier to make" and this way charge you more.
  • + 1
 @samsq Of course I don't know exactly how much money Specialized spends between its departments, but dont think the budget is very different from other companies of similar size, where the bigger part of it is for marketing purposes.
I'll bet one coffee one third of the retail price goes to pay marketing costs.
  • + 1
 Or you can have a robot do the welding...

A carbon part is more expensive than a similar aluminum part in production. Mather of fact, like it or not there is no conspiracy going on here.

Samsung, it's not only cost directly related to production of the product like development. don't forget the marketing dollars, the race team, gwins salary, shipping, logistics, stocking spares for 15 years, the money your dealer wants to earn...
All those costs usually add up to a point where the the actual cost of a product 20-25% of retail price.
  • + 1
 Uh,autocorrect,.. Sorry samsq
  • + 1
 Not to mention healthcare(employer mandate kicks in after midterm elections/lol), utilities, taxes, buildings, ....most business costs have increased significantly past few yeas, while economy contracted.
  • + 3
 this topic never gets old. what makes me laugh is how the top end has been getting higher and higher (I think now we're something around US$12k, in order to make an average cost of US$5-6k seem "reasonable." this is completely insane, at least to me, but then again I just realized I'm paying 6 dollars for a loaf of bread in the bay area, so who knows what things cost anymore.
  • + 2
 @barkit
Yea. you think about everything made today. its made to break, not to last. Look at ur parents stoves, washers, driers, fridges. Those things lasted 30+ years before needing to be replaced. My fiances parents just bought a new stove, and within the first 2 years, needed 5 services covered under their 150$ a year warranty for 3 years. When i was there for one of the repairs, he plugged in something that got 'unhooked' and stopped the electrical from working.
My parents bought a washer, within the first 3 months theres a leak. My family fixes things instead of buying warranties. We looked in the back of the washer, and the sealed tubes were half assed.
it was made to leak, it was made to unhook

any big company will exploit their 'brand name' to benefit from it. We as consumers are the chumps. thats why when companies go big, its usually time to make a switch (for me.)
  • + 0
 Not only the bike is expensive, it now cost $10K+ to be able to change your shock!
  • + 0
 Marzocchi doubled their replacement parts for all of the older models just because significant number of people still use them, they are strong and relatively cheap. So if you ever decide to buy any old Marzocchi fork or shock in perfect condition, beware their doubled prices of all things to service them well.

"Potężna cywilizacja nasza dąży do wytworzenia możliwie nietrwałych produktów w możliwie trwałym opakowaniu. Nietrwały produkt wnet musi być zastąpiony nowym, co ułatwia zbyt; a trwałość opakowania utrudnia jego usunięcie, co sprzyja dalszemu rozwojowi techniki i cywilizacji." Stanisław Lem 1971.

Which means: The might civilisation of ours aims at making possibly undurable products in possible durable packaging. Undurable product has to be replaced quickly, which supports sales. Durability of package makes it harder to get rid of it, which supports development of technology and civilisation. In other words consumers should buy more and more, and civilisation and technology should focus mainly around managing trash and garbage.
  • + 1
 @SAM: " "A much simpler bike that's easier to make" yet more expensive... Pricing in bikes needs to be going DOWN as the sport grows not UP, particularly when it seems unjustified!"

I'm annoyed now by you. The price has NOT been announced and here you are pulling sh*t out of your *ss to hate.
If you don't like the bike or if $5K+ bikes are too expensive for you, WELCOME TO THE CLUB, but don't make up sh*t.
  • + 4
 Crying about the price of new bikes??? Buy a used one? Do you going into a Porsche dealer and laugh at the price? No you buy a VW if that's all you can afford. I always buy lightly used bikes and save a ton. I bought my 2013 Carbon Demo 1 with a bunch of high end add on for 4 Gs. It cost $6,600 new not including all the add ons. You can buy a Status super cheap if you want a budget DH bike, good looking bike too.
  • + 3
 @haljohnson six dollars for a loaf of bread. Wow!!! I'm paying about two dollars
  • + 1
 @abzillah I'm not hating on this nor pulling anything out of my ass (neither I didn't quote a price) but all I'm saying is that from where I'm standing prices in the cycle industry seem invariably to be going up.

I'm thinking of the longer-term future development of mountain biking as a sport, for which we all have massively high expectations. But we're never going to gain such a large scale of exposure to the rest of the sporting world when pricing is as high as it is becoming!

I believe that by trying to plateau costs in the short run (in what are still the relatively early stages of the development of mountain biking) the sport will reap the benefits of larger-scale exposure to the rest of the sporting world. This, then, will pay dividends in the future to these bicycle companies. Their financial stability for the future will always remain secure as the world will always have bikes!
  • + 0
 That's so true..listened to an expert on the radio and he said all manufacturers do it and it's totally legal.
  • + 2
 samtosswill: let me ask a question here:

As a mountainbiker, someone who simply enjoys riding bikes, a Customer, what the f**k do i gain from exposure to the rest of the sporting world?
Why do so may of you here on pink bike worry so much about media exposure of DH world cup and BS like that? I want to see it to, yes, but i actually perfer it online with no freaking advertisement. The market can do what ever it wants, i don't care. more people riding on the trails? longer lines in the parks? rather not!

Anyway, bikes did not really get that expensive. Think about it:

1) look at what you get for 2000 Dollar in 2014 vs what you got in 1994... 1994 you might have gotten a high end bike but it would have by no means worked better than your 2014 entry level full suspension.
Yes now there is a 10K option to. So what?

2) a f***ing I-Phone is 700-900 Dollars. Most people i know have a new one about every Year or so for a completely useless status symbol dooing a yob tht a 50$ piece of plactic could do just as well. Thats freaking 5000 Dollars in 5 years!

Stop bitching, go riding, all of you!
  • + 2
 @samtosswill First up, good evening (wayyyy UK)
I have given some thought to the point you have made. Firstly, i think we need to travel back in time, not too far back though. A little history lesson.
Ok, so.... to make a top end product you need to put a tremendous time into r&d. this is where the majority of your money is going. So lets go back to the 2004 demo, [cue time machine] the top model would have seemed real expensive back then, however, the people that could afford it are funding for the next top end model for the next year.
We are back to the present, and have been exposed to one of the most beautiful frames i have ever seen. This is not for the everyday person/rider/shredder/legend.
The people that will inevitably buy what will be an extortionate vélo are just funding for more beautiful items like this to appear in the future. Without top spec bikes, the lower, more affordable bikes would never improve, and you and i would still be riding on the equivalent of a Halfords Trax Tr.1 and spending a grand on it too.
As for @abzillah... well i have no words for you, but as you like your stars, here are some more ***** wooo.
  • + 4
 We cry about the prices and argue about details, because we all want to ride the best bikes available, even when our skills or trails are compromised by our life beyond biking. There was an article by Mr Richard Cunningham offering a budget mongoose dh bike into consideration. (www.pinkbike.com/news/affordable-shredders-from-mongoose-tiocali-amtrailbike-and-bootr-downhill-racer-2015.html). There was not more than 10% of interest devoted to that topic comparing to the new demo, or a V10. Most of amateur riders would not even take the budget dh bike to its limits, but we all still believe that a new high end and expensive bike will make it easier to pedal, jump and shred faster. It is always so true. I think it may be becasue we use our muscles to move it and it hurts when a bike is heavy, and it is always too heavy after few hours. Off course there is also the phenomenon of showing off in front of mates about who's got simething better and newer. I've noticed possesing an expensive bike speaks for a position in local biking community. People just ignore those who ride old and cheap bikes. So we cry about the pricess, because we all know that whatever high the pricess are we will still have to buy the expensive ones just for the sake.
  • + 2
 good quality carbon fibre is not cheap to manufacture - cheap (poor quality) carbon fibre is relatively cheap to manufacture

to layup an average quality carbon fibre road frame takes 9 hours and 30 pairs of hands. This frame will use 3,500km of single filament which has been woven into cloth, and then impregnated with expensive resins. Takes a huge amount of energy, time and investment to be able to do this.

Tooling is another very expensive up-front cost, typically for the front triangle of a road bike frame in 1 size, its about $50-70,000 depending on the design. Then add in multiple sizes. Tools require ongoing maintenance as they wear during use, working life of a tool is approx. 3 year and then its retired.
  • + 1
 Sorry to be late to the party here boys. I have something to offer.
As far as I know, Specialized carbon frames are still made in Taiwan. The cost of labour in a factory here is between $600 and $1000 USD a month. A month is 22 days at 11 hours each. Lets use the top of that bracket (which I doubt people working with carbon are at) for the sake of argument. Hampstead Bandit you say 9 hours to lay one up and 30 people doing it. I don't know where you're getting that figure from, but frankly I find it very hard to be believe. I'm not attacking you personally on that, but like I said I doubt 30 people are involved. You could be right, but even if you are they aren't all working on it at the same time. Even if they were, the labour cost would be a little over $1000 USD at the top end of $4.13 USD an hour.

More likely is there's a production line with two people max doing the same thing at the same time. So 9 hours, two people, 18 hours at $4.13 is $74.34 USD for labour cost on one frame.

I've got a few mates who work in bike factories and I've heard a lot of times that the actual cost of making a carbon downhill bike frame is less than $300 USD.
  • + 2
 @jaame You could be murdered in the next 48 hours for releasing this kind of information to the public. Run! Hide!
  • + 3
 It's simply supply and demand which is not directly related to the the cost of manufacture. People want carbon bikes and they are willing to pay a lot of money for one. If no one buys this Demo (which I have to say is the best looking one yet, especially the single sided seat mast) the price will come down. If demand is so low that the price gets pushed down to an unacceptable level for the accountants, they will stop producing it.

You guys saying they aren't making money on this bike are having a laugh. You guys saying carbon is very expensive to make are a marketing department's wet dream.

Carbon is an accountant's wet dream. It's cheaper to make and more desirable, hence they can sell it for more. It's a win-win for the companies.

Also it's worth noting that Taiwan is being priced out of the market at the bottom end of the manufacturing scale because the costs are a lot lower in China and Vietnam. I'd be willing to bet a cup of coffee that a carbon frame made in Vietnam is well under $200 USD at cost price.

Of course, cost of manufacture is not the only cost to recover, but like I said, it's supply and demand. Plain and simple.
  • + 3
 jaame, could you please get me this factories contact?
After 15 years in the industry as a product developer a factory that is able to build a whole carbon frame for 300$ is my personal work related wet dream...
  • + 1
 Dear mates. This is not a commercial, rather a recommendarion. I had a conversation with the Pinkbike user and although it is China I don't think it would be wise to neglect their skills. Here's the link www.pinkbike.com/u/hancychow 2 years guarantee, looks nice and strong and all well priced. I will definitely use the contact in some near future, especially for some carbon rims that can handle 140kg for guaranteed 2 years. The fact that something is made in China, or somewhere near has, in my opinion, nothing to do with low quality these days.
  • + 1
 I've just taken a look at the link and the items are so cheap that seem a ripoff. To tell the truth I've never been partial to cheap made-in-china crap. Thanks for the information anyway.
  • + 1
 @jaame

My information comes directly from the world's largest manufacturer who has their own carbon division 'c-tec'

There is substantially more to manufacturing carbon fibre than basing your pricing on labour costs, Taiwan is not as cheap as some believe which is why some brands have moved production to China, Cambodia and Vietnam.

Of course, there is a lot of poorly made, sub standard carbon fibre flooding into the market, but their 'costs' bare no relation to the costs of doing if properly (and safely) with quality materials.
  • + 2
 Someone up top commented that the cost of labour on a carbon frame is very high. I happen to know that that is not the case. My real point is just about supply and demand. Of course there are different qualities of any product. I'm quite sure there is good carbon and bad carbon. I just don't want anyone to be fooled into thinking that because a frame sells for four thousand quid it cost something close to that to manufacture.

30 people working on a frame does not mean all at the same time. That would be physically impossible. There won't be one working on it and 29 standing around waiting for their turn either. So I'm going to stick to my belief that the cost of labour on one of these is well under a hundred american. I am open to being proven wrong about the raw materials cost.

The high retail price is because that is what people will pay. The shops need to make their 40% of the final price, the distributors their cut, the tax man wants his slice (and it's not a small one... 34% of import value in the UK no?), the design brand want their bit, and of course the factory has to clear a profit.

All in all it adds up and the consumer foots the bill. You pay your money and you take your choice.

I'm not being negative, they have a right to charge what they want. A lot of people who obviously haven't thought it through always get involved saying BS like the manufacture cost is high, the company isn't making money on it and other such rubbish. Bottom line is, bike companies are in it to make money, not because they want to do favours for the bike riding public!
  • + 1
 @guataisi I know it is unbelievably cheap and suspicious, but if you email them, receive a brochure and read it twice, there is 2 years warranty so you can buy it, test it hard in two years and send it back if anything goes wrong. It is an unknown company so they don't want to spoil any new impression. We cry for bike parts becomming ridiculously expensive. We know they are produced in China and we feel kind of cheated. What if someone lives in China (very wise culture with ancient roots), produces bike parts for big makes and feels the same? Get rid of all big names, commercials, pro riders recommendations, offer a quality carbon product with a normal price and people don't believe it is any worth. It is more than sure I will buy their rims or some other parts, I just regret they don't offer a full suspension downhill frames, forks and driveterrain parts. There is international trade freedom in attracting consumers attention. We got used to big names, commercials, and prices. What if there is company in China who only wants to make its living selling almost the same product with a price consisting of production cost and reasonable earn? I am not paid for the recommendation. I have similar doubts, but I think we are all prisoners of the stereotype of "made in China" quality. China is a big country, and there are skillful workers there. If you want them to produce crap for a peny they do it, but it does not have to mean they don't know how to built quality products. I would like people to give them a chance, because this could make a change in world bike prices. Sales of big names and their monopoly could be compromised and this is the key to better future of a global consumer rider and all of the industry in further perspective. This could make bikes a lot cheaper and a lot better. Big names offer us products that bring money, not the best bikes possible to make.
  • + 0
 There are no friends in business, end of story.
  • + 1
 I am not trying to be friendly here. I can see benefits of this to all of us, with no exception.
  • + 1
 @jaame

Cost of manufacturing a carbon fibre frame is substantially higher than for aluminium alloy frame, regardless of whatever labour inputs you think you know about. Bear in mind the labour input on an aluminium alloy frame is substantially lower than carbon fibre which is time / labour intensive

I've dealt with 100's of warranty and crash replacement jobs on all of the big brands and smaller brands the past 7 years. Seen the differences in cost pricing on carbon fibre and aluminium frames, its a big gap and not because of perceived value.

I also owned a bike brand with a manufacturer (offshore). I stood in the factory and watched my frames being welded. I manufactured my own aluminium alloy prototypes in the uk using basic machining, welding, alignment and heat treatment equipment. The setup costs were minimal, compared to the huge investment required to tool up a single size mould set for a carbon fibre frame.

Very good friends of mine own a well known Canadian frame brand, they won't get into carbon fibre because the setup costs are simply too high. This is why a number of small brands use OEM with open mould frame tooling, nothing special apart from different paint and graphics to the other 10 'brands' using the same mould Wink
  • + 2
 I think I know the cost of labour and I think I know it's a fraction of the RRP on a frame. Since you actually know the figures from personal experience, why don't you fill me in?

I am very interested to know what it really costs to make a frame, so come on... spill the beans!
  • + 2
 P.S. I bet you don't
  • + 0
 @jaame

Of course I am not going to release commercial information on a public forum...
  • + 2
 Of course not
  • + 1
 I'm working on it guys Smile It might be a little heavier but its got all the perks of any modern dh bike today... p.s. my website is a it janky atm but will we transformed over winter break. acoolacreativestudio.weebly.com/projects.html
  • + 62
 Please stop posting all those exciting articles. I have to work at some point you know?
  • - 3
 Quit job and ride a bike all the time. You are already rich living in Switzerland.
  • + 1
 Oh, how interesting jedzeja. Please tell us more of your extensive knowledge of the Swiss economy and its taxation system.......How rude!
  • - 2
 Better tell us more about the source of Swiss wealth. How ironic!
  • + 11
 The bike. Remember? We were talking about the bike.
  • + 2
 @tworldsmine AGREED. I am nervously overreacting because I read the news about eastern Europe. Apart from this I never mean to say anything negative about any Pinkbike user. In fact I didn't mean anything rude in my first comment on this. In my country, it could be read almost like a joke. There is irony common among poles. I was nearly sure to expect an answear like: "yeah right, you're kidding me. we all need to work." or something like that. It was Old-Man-Eggy who caused my reaction.

Anyway the bike. I have some doubts about the chainguide mountings attached to swingarm or swinglink. Antidote tried it some time ago and I think they replaced it with a stable chainguide, but I have to check it. It is always an issue when trying to use bottom bracket like a suspension pivot. As for the asymmetry, I am sceptic as usual, but I see a possible future of people being proud of their five year old asymmetric frames in 2019. In my opinion a solid critics helps in overall product development and even when I relate seeing disadvantages and regardless if anyone cares, I have not decided if I like it or not. I am sure it is not a trivial evolution stage of the demo frame. It's radical and this way controversial. Especially when compared to the new V10 which is almost the same like the 26" version. In this demo they introduced the larger wheel platfrom, asymmetricly mounted shock, carbon swingarm with a spining chainguide, and a strange bulky shape of left dropout, so it is definitely a radical design.
  • + 2
 @jedrzeja: First thing: if you think I never thought of stopping to work and ride all day you're wrong. Only problem: unless I win the lottery it won't happen.
If you think everybody's rich and not working in Switzerland, then do like I did 10 years ago: move to Switzerland.
If you think everybody's rich and not working in Switzerland, then where the hell would this money come from? Surprisingly enough, there are quite a bunch of working-poors in Switzerland. But if your education level is good, then you can make a comfortable living and even buy a nice bike from time to time. Not sure this Demo will land in the garage of my mansion though. Oh, I don't have a garage. Nor a mansion,,, Sorry to disappoint you!

Now the asymmetric thing: It's at first surprising but in the end, there are plenty of bikes which don't have the shock crossing the seat post tube, making for a continuous single seat tube. Here it's just a bit shifted, well the support of the seat tube as obviously the saddle is still in the middle of the bike. I hope!
  • + 0
 Dear EnduroManiac,
Please read again:
I am nervously overreacting because I read the news about eastern Europe. Apart from this I never mean to say anything negative about any Pinkbike user. In fact I didn't mean anything rude in my first comment on this. In my country, it could be read almost like a joke. There is irony common among poles. I was nearly sure to expect an answear like: "yeah right, you're kidding me. we all need to work." or something like that. It was Old-Man-Eggy who caused my reaction.

What I meant was a kind of a joke just to start some conversation. Sorry for causing this misunderstanding, or making you feel any of the kind you are talking about. Different languages, different cultures. All this needs our patience and understanding while communicating. Lets stay cool on both sides.
  • + 25
 As nice as this Bike looks, i am wondering what Bike norbs, hunter and co. Will be using now. 650b may have preferences in racing, but for freeriding it seems Not as suitible to me...
  • + 12
 anticipating how the bike works on rampage.
  • + 14
 Just throwing the idea out there....

Perhaps they might push the status a little more???

Besides any of the bikes norbs, hunter or berrecloth ride they will rip on anyway.
  • + 5
 Was nico vink not running a 2015 650b gambler at loose fest?
  • + 5
 Vink wasn't throwing any 360
  • + 7
 Totally right! Norbs just got robbed!
  • + 5
 The word I am hearing is that the free ride guys may be on the new Enduro Expert evo.
  • + 3
 They will use whatever bike Specialized gives them to use, with a few personal preference adjustments. That's why the sponsorship exists, to get professionals to ride a specific product so people will buy it. It's not done out of the goodness of Specializes heart. That said, those guys could rip it up on a tricycle from Walmart if that's what they were handed.
  • + 4
 Actually most of the specialized sponsored riders get a choice in what they ride. They want their guys winning and that means they have to be on bikes they are comfortable on.
  • + 2
 Bike companies also make one-off tweaks to a products for a rider, so really what they are riding is kind of a lie- like blacked out tire logos. So maybe they will ride a Demo at rampage, but that doesn't mean it's the same as this Demo.
  • + 4
 Vink doesn't like 650b so he runs his 2015 Gambler with 26in wheels (which is possible so long as you run the bb in the high position).
  • + 2
 True. That's often part of the development process. Also keep in mind at the last Rampage, there were Demos, an Enduro Expert evo, and a Status being ridden. There's a few options from Specialized for those guys to choose from.
  • + 2
 Could have sworn the first article/ video that introduced the new '15 demo mentioned how they will be keeping the old frame design for '15 as well. Not sure if they will retain 26" wheels, though. Whatever happens, @ninjatarian is right, they'll be using whatever Specialized wants them to ride.

Also, find it kind of hilarious how they put a boxxer team on what could be a 10k bike... give me some worldcups, please!
  • + 2
 The demo the specialized team was using earlier in the year before this bike became available will be the aluminium version for 2015. It looks like the current bike but will come with 23in (650b) wheels. Dunno if you will have a high bb position on the frame which will allow you to run 22in (26in) wheels front and back.
  • + 3
 @SintraFreeride - you will not be able to use the geo adjust chip to run 26in on the new 650 alloy Demo. The geos will not be close enough.
  • + 18
 Why people say that specialized bike are SOOOO expensive, but when this is the AMAZINGGG V10 much more expensive, it's legit ? You can be jealous, ok, but you must be a minimum objective, you're not forced to buy this thing and you don't even try it ! god damn, shut the f*ck up and look at yourself
  • + 8
 Amen brother. I have no bias when it comes to either one of the bikes mentioned, but I totally agree with you.
  • + 6
 Pretty sure people are whining about the super expensive v10 as well
  • + 8
 It's funny when people bitch about the price of the most top-end World Cup level racing machines. They were not built for you and I, they were built for Aaron Gwin and Troy Brosnan. These are the pinnacle of R&D engineering and production and the price reflects it. Specialized has always had several tiers of kits/price points, and I'm sure the Demo I and the Status will do just fine for 99% of the riders on this site
  • + 6
 Seeming as troy and Aaron don't pay for the bikes I'm guessing they are actually made for us , the people that buy them..
  • + 2
 The way I see it, the bikes are made for Brosnan and Gwin. And we as consumers are offered the opportunity to get the same ride experience, with out being a top level athlete. And that of course will come at a seemingly astronomical price, so that's why they're offering the old aluminum versions with bigger wheels for the likes of you and I
  • + 2
 It's like people bitching at Toyota for building an expensive Formula one race car. Sorry buddy, but the Camry is probably better for you
  • + 19
 Yeah cool concentric this four bar that........will it look wicked awesome on the roof of my Audi?
  • + 4
 Yes, it will. The bike looks good, I will acknowledge that and that is where the compliments end and the criticism begins:

Is it redundant to point out that there has never been a successful suspension design that pivots directly around the BB? When you hit square edge bumps with a BB that low there is no way the suspension can absorb them as effectively as a bike with a higher pivot. Because the rear axle is higher than the BB the rear tire is in effect bounciing off of square edge bumps instead of absorbing them because of the impact angle. On drops to flat this super-low BB pivot placement works great because the rear axle goes directly up but the majority of impacts you encounter on a DH trail are square edge. So a higher BB placement would help the bike absorb bumps and carry momentum better. They sacrificed suspension performance significantly to get a slightly lower center of gravity. Bad trade-off.

Jason Chamberlain, Senior Design Engineer, Specialized:

"What we found was that we could achieve the same level of performance through a properly tuned FSR with an Ohlins shock as you could with some of the radical designs with crazy wheel paths.''

This statement flat-out acknowledges that other suspension design are more effective at absorbing bumps and holding momentum, period. But they are going to make up for it with the performance of the shock? So what if you put that Ohlins shock on one of the other brand's superior designs? It would be even more superior. The new Yeti switch infinite design is the most promising to date

This also implies that if you are riding a new Demo with shock other than a Ohlins you are getting sub-par performance. Wonder how the team guys sponsored by Fox and Rockshox feel about that?
  • + 5
 They have obviously again compromised Aaron Gwins preferences, putting him on a bike with short stays and a long to tube. The larger sizes should have incrementally longer stays at the very least. His large bike effectively has shorter stays than Brosnan's smaller bike.

Combining a concentric BB with a BB30, hmmm... Why not combine the worst BB placement with the worst BB standard of all time?

I'll be surprised if this design sticks around for long, honestly. But I will not be surprised to see them proudly displayed on the top of Audi's.
  • + 4
 The low main pivot doesn't necessarily rule out a rearward wheel path. Look how low the Horst link is compared to older specialized designs. The chainstay is very downward sloping, just like the older Demo. Since the upper rocker link is nearly parallel with the chainstay, the will still be significant rearward movement, at least for the first half of travel. Runs a single speed setup and the chain will break.

And to defend the engineer, he does admit that other designs probably do better with absorbing head on bumps, they also have disadvantages, like changing geometry and chain tension issues. I think he was saying that through shock tuning they can get close to the same performance through the rough stuff, but without the disadvantages that dramatically rearward axle paths also seem to have.

Your third point about Gwin though I agree with 100%. This geometry setup might be good for other riders, but Gwin was so unapologeticly dominant on the Session that this has to be a compromise for him.
  • + 5
 I would have to sell my Audi to be able to afford it....dammit.
  • + 9
 Ahh Protour - I missed you dude, where were you?
  • + 5
 You do realize mate that all of the latest revisions of "major" DH racing rigs like V10, Session or Glory got shorter chainstays, despite going up in the wheel size, then to they got longer front ends? Everyone is crazy but you Protour, nobody listens to you, fools! hahah Big Grin
  • + 11
 Protour... king of the armchair engineers.
  • + 3
 hamncheez: "The low main pivot doesn't necessarily rule out a rearward wheel path."

No, but it makes it much less reactive to square edge bumps and in no way helps the bike keep momentum. That is why Specialized says they bought all the bikes and watched them but have no scientific proof this design is superior. They have banked everything on good looks and producing a lower center of gravity and have sacrificed pretty much every other aspect of DH bike performance to achieve those weak goals. They should have just copied Commencal's design, they would have had a proven performer with a lower center of gravity.

It is also worth mentioning that the concentric BB pivot is notorious for being one of the worst pedaling-performance designs out there, which is why it was ancient history until Specialised decided to re-innovate it. This is also why I guarantee Specialized will never try this design with any of their XC bikes. The low BB puts too much force on the shock during pedaling efforts and makes it want to engage. I suppose the supposedly moto-superior Ohlins shock is supposed to make up for this suspension design deficiency as well?

Gwin and Brosnan are getting decent results in spite of this bike, not because of it.
  • + 2
 Waki: "Ahh Protour - I missed you dude, where were you?"

Just riding my bicycles. Nice to hear from you, my friend. Continue your creative work.
  • + 2
 hamncheez: "Look how low the Horst link is compared to older specialized designs. The chainstay is very downward sloping, just like the older Demo. Since the upper rocker link is nearly parallel with the chainstay, the will still be significant rearward movement, at least for the first half of travel."

The chainstay appears to be at the same angle from a distance but if look closely you can see that the old Demo has a significantly higher BB pivot. Quit lying to yourself, It's fairly obvious. Considering that at least 25% of the travel is used in sag, the bike doesn't have much rearward movement.

Also, what are the big disadvantages of rearward path suspension designs? In its various variations it is the most successful design in gravity racing history, pedals more efficiently, absorbs straight edge bumps better, and maintains momentum better. Meanwhile I will remind you again there has never been a suspension bicycle with a concentric BB pivot that has stood the test of time and been successful. A great shock can't make up for a bad design, and it makes no sense to do that unless your priorities are confused.
  • + 2
 Waki: "You do realize mate that all of the latest revisions of "major" DH racing rigs like V10, Session or Glory got shorter chainstays, despite going up in the wheel size, then to they got longer front ends? Everyone is crazy but you Protour, nobody listens to you"

hamncheez agreed with me on the chainstays, so have others in the past. Don't listen to me, just look at the most dominant two seasons any rider has ever had in the history of World Cup DH...Gwin had long chainstays.

Also, nice try on a lie, but the new V10 appears to have the same length stays, and the new Session does have the same length stays as the old one. Don't listen to me, listen to Trek engineer Dylan Howes:

"On a downhill race bike, simply having the shortest chain stays isn’t the best option. So, with careful design and adjustment to parts, we kept the chain stay length the same."

The same length as they were when Gwin was a guaranteed win.
  • - 2
 jaydawg69: "Protour... king of the armchair engineers."

It shouldn't take an armchair engineer to convince you that the suspension design platform of a bike is inferior when the actual engineer who helped design it (Jason Chamberlain) willingly admits it is inferior.
  • + 1
 Its true, the main pivot on the new demo is lower (three inches I think the video said). However, the Horst link out back is also lower. There still will be chain growth. There still will be rearward movement. This won't affect the shock articulation if the rearward motion is the same.

What bike with dramatic rearward movement is the winningest DH bike? All bikes that don't use a floating BB, internal transmission, or idler pulley (like the Canefield Jedi) have very similar amounts of rearward growth; they just have slight variations on the growth curve plotted against the travel. I am willing to bet that this new Demo has a comparable amount of chain growth to the older one and other "traditional" DH bikes.

This doesn't mean I think this bike is good; without riding a bike I think its hasty to judge its ability to carry speed. There are other things I think are kind of stupid, like the 1 sided seat tube and how a $10k+ all carbon frame is still over a pound heavier than the first carbon Trek Session.
  • + 4
 @Protour: if you watch the video, the engineer says they are able to achieve the same performance with a tuned FSR and Ohlins shock compared to other suspension designs. Take that for what it's worth but he never stated or implied that the FSR design is inferior. I think a good engineer/company should always look at the competition and see how you compare and fine tune if necessary. Once again, you take things out of context.

@hamncheez: no prices have been set so I don't know where you are getting $10k for a frame? The 1 sided seat tube was discussed in the video. But I agree don't judge until riding the bike. This concept is lost on a lot of people.
  • + 1
 @jaydawg69 Sorry for the bad wording, but I meant $10k+ bike with an all carbon frame
  • + 2
 OMFG Protour & WAKI commented on my post. My bro's will loose their shit when i rock up bossin my new Demo on me custom wheeled A4 and I tell em how down I am on Pinkbike.
  • + 15
 Dunno if it's the 650 wheels, or the thicker sections on the frame, or maybe that I'm used to seeing Pikes/34s on shorter travel bikes, but those Boxxers look like spindly little 32s in those pics..
  • + 14
 A Fox 40 makes every DH bike look just right
  • + 13
 I really don't understand the obsession with carbon. If I was a pro racer then trying to shave tenths off my times is fair enough.... but I don't even time my runs. The success of my run is judged by how sideways I got. Carbon seems like a pretty bad, and excessively expensive development that doesn't make sense for most of the riders I know.
  • + 4
 They both have their place. In terms of world cups look at the two most recent victories - Sam hill won MSA on a aluminium and Ratboy the next weekend on carbon. Proves that if your fast you can be fast on anything. In more very limited opinion carbon = ability to create more unusual shapes and less weight. alloy = cheaper
  • + 5
 Carbon tends to absorb vibration and ride nicer as well compared to alu...the difference is very obvious in the HT world.
  • - 2
 Sure Sam won on an aluminum bike at MSA and I was stoked on that, but the WC overall will be won on a carbon bike just like the last year and the last 2 World Champs.
  • + 6
 My guess this that no bike company makes money off of DH bikes. They all lose money by selling them. What they get is brand recognition and promotion. People see Gwin and Brosnan winning on the DH bike, and it makes them want to buy a specialized, regardless of model. Shops and bike manufacturers simply don't sell very many DH bikes. If your flagship DH race bike is built solely to get your athletes on the podium, then they can be super expensive because you're not going to sell very many anyways.
  • + 2
 Completely agree. The majority of shops I have been to are no where near trail centres or places with uplift, so they simply don't have a market DH bikes.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez I think that is spot on and I think that's why we see relatively small companies (SC, Devinci, etc.) when compared to Spec, Trek, and Giant invest pretty heavily in their DH programs. Winning world champs and world cups probably does a lot for sales for the brand, which is why they put a ton of money into these bikes.
  • + 0
 gavlaa, this is exactly what I've been thinking about for a long time, at the end of the day we all ride bikes for fun. There's very few who take it extremely seriously and I think that manufacturers should realise this. Instead of marketing bikes as fast I think there is money to advertise them as fun, I remember when Kona marketed the Stinky as a "do anything and have fun doing it" type of bike which worked really well... until they all broke (but we won't talk about that)
  • + 0
 *money to be made by advertising
  • + 14
 I'm just waiting for all the geniuses to comment thinking they know better than the designers haha
  • + 11
 I found the paragraph on sizing preferences extremely interesting. Would be so awesome to have the resources (sponsorship) to be able to test out different sizes to see the difference in play/stability etc!
  • - 2
 Practically everyone knows it, but yet barely any frame builder actually does it.
Chainstay lengths that get longer with growing frame size should be mandatory!
I guess this modification is too complex and costly for big "S". Smile
  • + 14
 "Specialized feel that seattube length should have next to nothing to do with mtb sizing...". Finally, thank f**k for that.
At 6ft I am always torn between medium and large but end up compromising with medium due to the more sensible seat tube length/standover height. Other bike manufacturers PLEASE TAKE NOTE AND FOLLOW SUIT.
  • + 4
 tremeer- other brands, such as Evil, have already been doing this with their DH bikes. But I agree, should be far more common
  • + 1
 tremeer023 DH bikes are not te only type of bike out there. I'm on a large Commencal Meta (the 2008 model, the first with the banana swingarm) and it's actually a bit too small for me at 6'3". The next bike will be XL, if possible.
  • + 1
 I've found too low is a problem for sometimes - I'm 6'4" and need to run a lot if seatpost if it's too short
  • + 1
 Yeh, sorry. I was thinking in the context of DH frames.
  • + 2
 It's funny when people bitch about the price of the most top-end World Cup level racing machines. They were not built for you and I, they were built for Aaron Gwin and Troy Brosnan. These are the pinnacle of R&D engineering and production and the price reflects it. Specialized has always had several tiers of kits/price points, and I'm sure the Demo I and the Status will do just fine for 99% of the riders on this site
  • + 1
 At 6'4" I am struggling to get myself comfotably on anything I have seen yet. Evrything is so small, and I don't want a 400mm seatpost to compensate for stupid tiny seat tubes. I don't get the current fad for small only sized bikes. My 2010 Enduro XL has totally different sizing from the 2014 XL. The headtube on my bike is 3cm longer! Why is it assumed that taller people want to have to resach down to the bars. Was goiung to buy a YT Capra, stupid tiny sizing is a no go, YT Tues the same issue..
  • + 1
 clarky, Most people are not 6'4" but 5'9". Companies will never make exspensive DH bikes for super tall people that make up such a small % of the DH population. You need a custom made frame if your seriously having problem fitting your bike. Most people 6' 4" play basketball not ride bikes lol.
  • + 1
 Oh god clarky, don't get me started on the Capra... It's a proper dream bike, if only it came in XL or I was 5 cm smaller... And the price as well... As for the enduro, there is no xl in a normal wheel size since the 29 has been developed. Supposedly us somewhat tall guys should use the wagon wheels...
  • + 2
 Most people are not 5.9"! The average some 20 years ago was 5'10" and that has been going up slowly. Look at the Santa Cruz Syndicate team and tell me only people 6'4 play basketball! The whole teams riders are around 6'4", and unsurpisngly the V10 does come in an XL size. 6'4" is way too short for basketballers anyway.

I hate this current trend for pushing large sizers to 29rs. I don't like the ride on the 29r, I want a 27.5. I can get a Speciailzed to fit me but the pricing is unrealistic for carbon models. I am really trying ti persuade myself I can fit on a Capra (accroding to their stupid sizing chart it shoud fit). Also considered a Canyon, again, only upto large. a Radon Slide 160 Carbon LE is looking best bet which comes in a 22" (but in CM's is actually around a 21"!).

I understand being really tall is out the question but I consider 6'4" to be borderline normal sizing. There are people riding 25" frames over 6'6", they have to use 29rs, they simply don't look right with small wheels.
  • + 8
 love the new bikes has always, im a huge fan of specialized and i always been riding demos and never wanna go back.. but now i think for the price of that S-Works will cost i thing we should get a Boxxer WC and not a Boxxer Team and also a full set of Avid Codes and not just the front one lol if we pay for the best demo then in my opinion the bike should came with the best of the best components other wise i prefer just get the frame and build up my self..

well done specialized the new line up looks amazing Beer
  • + 5
 1. Those specialized boys have a wicked stylist!
2. Whats up with the two holes by the headtube? And no fork bummers? Shaking my head...
3. I wish I could be there to see when other companies like santa cruz and trek cut one of these frames open to see it's inner secrets
4. But what I really cant wait to see is this bike ridden by the richest """"shredders"""", reserved for them factory racers, and kept from the riders that would put it to work and will continue to drool at the art that specialized made into a bicycle

It looks rad, I'm pretty sure its fast as f*ck, and it will turn heads, specialized hit the goldmine
  • + 4
 The holes on the side of the head tube are for internal cable routing. No fork bumpers - they say that fork companies make great bumpers that work well and are light, so why add them to the frame?
  • + 1
 Factory racers don't put their bikes to work? What planet are you on
  • + 2
 "Richest shredders" as in rich people who rarley use their $10,000 bike and well there are only so many factory racers, so i think their point was that the best bikes will be ridden by very few. Completly unrelated but its funny how every spesh article that comes out (not just about the new demo) gets over 100 comments every time. Shows u how many fanboys or haters there are with specialized.
  • + 3
 Based on some of the comments here, it seems that we have some arm-chair engineers who are seriously under-employed! Man, if you know better than the Specialized Engineering team then I would suggest you quit whatever your doing, polish up that resume and start applying for some of those 6-figure jobs for which you are clearly qualified! (Bonus: You'll no longer have to complain about the price of this bike with all the money you'll be raking in!)

Seriously though - this is very likely to be one of, if not THE, best performing downhill race bikes currently to be found anywhere on the planet. Both Gwin and Bronson are have posted top 5 results in the first two races - and either could easily win the overall.

Kuddos to Specialized for the downtube protector. As the owner of an S-Works Enduro 29, I can tell you that the one major oversight is that the increased traction from the larger wheels also serves to toss fist size rocks at my carbon downtube when I am at speed. It's painful to hear the sound of carbon being pummeled.
  • - 1
 The only specific compliment you give the bike is the down-tube protector. How convincing.
  • + 0
 That "other" new bike has posted better results in the last couple of races. And it just may end up being the last 26" design to ever win.

KJP1230: To say that people who don't have the jobs know nothing is nothing short of simplistic hogwash. There are tons of people with a lot of know how, knowledge, and extremely logical thought processes. Those are the ones that aren't going to accept what a company has to say just because the company says it.

Companies are very well known for trying to manipulate what you think, without regard of facts. If this is something you don't know then you'll forever suffer from blind fanboi brand-allegiance, buy whatever polished turds they shove out there and claim to be the next best thing.
  • + 0
 I am suggesting that people engineering advice offered by blog readers (from nothing more than PICTURES to go off of) who are not engineering at a proficiency level found at major, high-end, bike companies is a little like a formula 1 team looking for advice from an 18 year old behind the counter at a back-country Advanced Auto Parts shop. I did not make a single statement to suggest that people not employed by a bike company cannot or do not have knowledge.

Companies do try and have an effect on our thinking - that is called marketing. Deciding that just because a company is large, they must be motivated to put out an inferior product is the hogwash. It's like the same losers who continually hate on the iPhone simply because they don't like to see the popular company's reign continue.

As I said once again: this bike is very likely to be amongst the absolute best downhill bikes in history. At least 99.8% of all pinkbike participants are unlikely to be technically savvy enough to offer an engineering critique from photos online.
  • + 1
 "As I said once again: this bike is very likely to be amongst the absolute best downhill bikes in history."

With this comment, it sounds like you are doing exactly what you are accusing us of. The only difference is that you are saying it with absolutely no input as to why?

So tell us "WHY" you think this instead of attacking people that have explained why they don't believe you.
  • + 0
 Look man - read the quote: "This bike is very LIKELY to be amongst the absolute best downhill bikes in history". Likely, as in 'having a high probability of'.

People love to come on Pinkbike and throw around engineering terms as if they actually know a damn thing about suspension design, engineering or even basic physics. People love to come on Pinkbike and hate on larger companies like Specialized, Trek, etc. simply because they are large companies. I get it - it is easy to want to go after other people's success.

The Specialized Demo lineup has received universal praise from nearly every major publication since its debut. The Specialized Demo is one of, if not the, best selling DH bike in the history of DH bikes. No matter how you feel about the "big S" - the Specialized Demo platform has been and is LIKELY to continue to be one of the best DH bikes on the planet.

Meanwhile, every time they release a product people on Pinkbike jump on message boards to sound off on why this new frame is the biggest POS to have ever been produced. It's not. It is meticulously thought over and engineer by some of the best engineering minds in the bike industry.

The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that the people throwing negative comments toward this frame are behaving in an ignorant fashion. Not a single person on this thread has had access to actually riding this frame - and I would be downright shocked if this bike were not an improvement over the previous model. Again - one of the best reviewed and most loved DH bikes on the planet.
  • + 1
 1) It's obvious I read the quote: I quoted it. Questioning whether or not I've read it is a straw man.

2) Receiving universal praise for older designs doesn't mean the new one is good.

3) I never mentioned how I felt about Spesh and it's besides the point here. I actually like some Spesh stuff. Just not the Demo. But considering this is about the Demo, this line of questioning/derision is another straw man.

4) "The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that the people throwing negative comments toward this frame are behaving in an ignorant fashion." Prove that! The person that said the most and was the most and was very clear in his reasoning was Protour. His commentary on the topic shows an understanding of the topic. But if you think otherwise, tell us why as opposed to flinging about the "arm-chair engineers" moniker in an attempt to be dismissive.

Fact it fact and opinion is opinion. Neither are things that should upset you.
  • + 0
 Okay. I am going to engage you point by point, because I don't feel I need to add anything that isn't already stated or implied to address why your points aren't points worth mentioning.
1. I asked you to re-read the quote and note the term "Likely" as it is significant to the purpose of my contribution to this thread. I, quite literally, did not question whether you had read the quote. Is that settled?
2. I would suggest that there is, at a MINIMUM, a tendency for well engineered bikes to improve with each new iteration. Can we agree with this basic pattern as being a useful heuristic?

If you disagree with this assertion then I suppose we are operating on fundamentally different perceptions regarding manufactured goods in this day and age. I can think of a nearly endless list of bike companies that have shown dramatic improvement in frame design and suspension performance with each passing generation of bikes in their lineup. I cannot conjure one single, salient, example to the contrary. This does not mean a counter-example does not exist; nor does it imply that this observable tendency would be degraded should a counter-example exist.
3. I didn't once accuse you specifically of having any opinion about Specialized bikes. Can we agree that this statement is true?
4. I went on to discuss and support this assertion IMMEDIATELY after - with the very next sentences. I clearly supported this accusation of "ignorance" by pointing out that anyone citing problems with this bike frame were doing so with limited or no actual experience with the bike. This is the literal definition of the term ignorant. Can we agree on this?

I know that I have typed a lot of words - and they are carefully chosen words, because I believe in their meaning and intention. Please read and respect all of them as you have done a poor job this far of demonstrating their lack of validity or truthfulness.
  • + 1
 PB caps the amount of drivel we can put in one place.... so here you go.

www.pinkbike.com/u/bdkr/blog/so-pbrs-dont-know-jack.html
  • + 3
 Ohlins shock,full carbon frame with boxxer RCs, don't really get this. A few bike company seem to be doing it at the moment to bring the price down but must really effect the ride. Good thing rockshox are selling the charger upgrade.
  • + 5
 how else do you realistically expect the price to come down, other than specing lower-end parts on it? This is normal down-grading in order to create a "lower" end model. Sure it might not ride as nicely as the S-Works, but that's why this isn't and doesn't cost as much as an S-Works.
  • + 1
 yeah i get that but for the extra money of some teams/R2C2 its a pretty big sacrifice to the ride.
  • + 1
 I guess it will depend on their asking price, once they release that then we'll know how much of a price/value gap it has
  • + 5
 I read something about an Öhlins cartridge for 40s and Boxxers on the German site that may be interesting...

www.mtb-news.de/news/2014/08/13/specialized-demo-carbon-650b

"Im Aftermarket werden zusätzlich Öhlins-Kartuschen für Fox und RockShox Federgabeln angeboten werden. Es scheint, als ob das komplette Öhlinsfahrwerk in greifbare Nähe gerückt ist – nicht nur in Form eines Nachrüstkits, sondern vielleicht auch bald in Form einer kompletten Gabel von Öhlins, was schon letztes Jahr in diesem Artikel im Gespräch war."

Google Translate:
In addition Aftermarket Ohlins cartridges for Fox and RockShox suspension forks are available. It seems as if the entire Öhlinsfahrwerk is within reach - not only in the form of a retrofit kit, but maybe soon in the form of a complete fork kit, which was last year at this article talking. www.mtb-news.de/news/2013/09/01/brandaktuell-usd-gabel-von-oehlins-passend-zum-neuen-ttx-daempfer
  • + 1
 The companies that are lowering the prices usually employ a direct sales model. I doubt it's an option for Specialised with them even moving to special stores, showcasing all of their stuff. Some of the stuff they do needs to be shown and tried in person. And the stores cost money to operate.
  • + 1
 @ka-brap the problem is some 4-5 year old higher end parts are still more durable than what gets put on lower end bikes. The tricke down on complete bikes doesn't often work.
  • + 2
 @stuiewarrior - We're going to have some more info on the spec details in the ride comparison piece, but the guys at Specialized made a decision to go with coil sprung forks because they prefer how they feel. The BoXXer on the high-end bike uses the same Charger cartridge, just a coil instead of air.
  • + 1
 ahh ok I didnt think the RC was gunna have the charger,I thought that was the Team and world cup.
  • + 3
 Amazing looking bike , really cleaver . There are 3 things i don`t like though . 1 , no fork bumpers on the frame . 2 , there is a chip on the paint o the non drive side seat mast , is this going to be another frame Spec has paint problems with . 3 , there not available now .
  • + 5
 They have said that there is no point adding fork bumpers to the frame as the fork manufacturers already make them spot on so why add extra weight.
  • + 1
 the 40 bumpers go limp after a few months and slide around . i just feel it would finnish the build of if the frame had bumpers and offer better protection .
  • - 2
 Easy solution, don't buy 40's.
  • + 1
 I replaced my 40 bump stops with the ODI ones, they work pretty darn good for an average Sunday rider like me.
  • + 2
 Looks like a very nicely designed bike. I actually really like the asymmetry - particularly as it serves a purpose. Working as an industrial designer at Specialized looks like an incredible job tup


I'm not yet convinced by the new sizing idea though. I'd like to hear more from Specialized about how that's going to work Salute
  • + 1
 There are 4 sizes, or lengths. We hope customers will start re-thinking how they pick their size. You shouldn't buy a DH bike solely on your height and inseam, which is how most other bikes are sold. You should start to think about what your riding style is and would a longer or shorter front center better match that riding style.
  • + 2
 Dr Evil: You want this bike? Well you can't have it. That is, unless, of course, you pay me... one hundred billion dollars.
You: Dr Evil, this is 2014! That amount of money doesn't even exist. That's like saying "I want a kajillion bajillion dollars."
  • + 3
 This is the father of demo: vimeo.com/26932877

I can't imagine how it must feel being the creator of such a machine which is being used so much in such ways around the globe.
  • + 2
 It feels like a failure in the eyes of ProTour.
  • + 2
 anyone know why new dh frames with 27.5 are 135x12 rear axle
i would have thought a larger rim would make you want a wider hub for strength, but maybe the other way round?

doesn't matter to me anyway, i'd have to change my 26 wheelset regardless if i swapped frame :'(
  • + 2
 What matters is dish if you can have less dish by using an asymmetric rear end like the old big hit then you don't need a 150mm hub. The other alternative is to mess around with the freewheel size to achieve the same thing. 150mm hubs aren't stronger they are just a solution to keeping the same freewheel hub size without making the rear end asymmetric. Narrower rear hubs reduces the chance of smacking your deraileur... Also you can still run a rear 26in on this new Demo but yeah you'd have to change the rear hub.
  • + 1
 thanks dude, great explanation
isn't the rear end stiffer on a 150mm rear design? or does the stiffness only come from the wheel?
  • + 1
 The stiffness comes from the wheel not the hub. 150mm hubs only make a wheel stiffer by removing dish if you don't make an asymmetric rear end or reduce the freehub size. You could make a 165mm hub with dish and it would be weaker than a 135mm hub without dish.
  • + 1
 soow if im right the taco of the guide moves along with the chainstay. soooow at full travel the taco is being pulled rearweards? thats when you need the most protection since the bracket is the lowest. ever landed in gnarly rocks? maybe it doesnt move that much but still.... dont take me wrong, love the frame, but it strikes me as kind of odd.
  • + 3
 Everyone is entitled to an opinion but anyone who thinks this is ugly is either crazy or a Specialized hater! That is perhaps the sexiest downhill bike ever!
  • + 1
 Watched the vid . Read Protours response. The shock looks like it only has 2.5 inches of stroke. In the slo mo vids, The rear looks like it is having trouble keeping up to the Boxxer fork. Spesh had to radicaly change the Demmo to keep up sales.
  • + 5
 lot of "looks like"... you and Protour could be professional armchair engineers. I hear the pay is outstanding!
  • + 0
 longer stays....... some one made the call before spesh. who would that be?
  • + 2
 A well known fact that a taller rider requires longer chainstays is something these big brands always choose to ignore just so they can save a bit of money in making the same rear end for all four sizes... Shameful.
  • + 1
 Nobody pays attention to these kinds of details anymore. The bike looks awesome and has a low center of gravity... What else is there to doubt?
  • + 1
 I hate to say it but overall it's a pretty clean lookin' deal. What I love to say, since I f*ckin' hate Spec' 'cuz they're dicks, is that the whole one-sided seat mast thing is balls & runs in to C-Dale category as far as stupid goes. Concentric pivots are great, but only for the right reasons & if you're not doing it to lose the dumb derailleur then you're just doing for the sake of change. Fail on this one Spec'. Maybe you should stop bullying small business & try harder at making better bikes.
  • + 1
 Aside from the fact that they make, arguably, the best lineup of bikes on the planet...and have been doing so for the last decade. The one-sided seat mast thing is a brilliant design that saves weight and allows faster adjustment of the rear shock - not to mention it has probably been through more engineering/testing than the majority of the parts on whatever automobile you're driving.

Other than that, you have a wonderfully written critique of a brand which is clearly failing to produce popular, well-reviewed, well-loved bikes.
  • + 1
 Here's the deal with pricing, coming from someone who's worked in various shops around the country for the last 15+ years. When it comes to high end bikes ranging from 5-10K+ I have never worked at a shop where either the owner or assistant manager gets involved in the sale and provides some type of "deal" for the customer. Thats just how it goes, most shops are extatic to get a sale like that. A shop I worked at 2 years ago gave a customer a killer deal on an Epic carbon 29'r just because of the rarity of someone buying it from his shop.
With that said, it's crazy to think that even the EP on this bike will still probably be around or more than 5K but its understandable considering the new engineered design.
  • + 3
 Showcasing a new bike with an Ohlins shock with a video showing Brosnam riding RockShox whilst Gwin races his with Fox shock. Hmmm. Seems a bit of a mess to me.
  • + 5
 Dear Santa... I've been a good boy this year....
  • + 1
 Still want to know what the two holes on the none driveside by headtube/down tube are for? People have speculated it's to externally route the rear break for easier maintenance for race mechanic work. IE: removal of entire closed system/not opening the line up to separate caliper so you can pull internal out. If it is for this I would expect to see a few additional mounting points down the frame to continue the external routing down the frame. Don't see anything but the two holes up top so what is it for???
  • + 1
 Yes, it's for external brake cable routing. I asked the Specialized mechanics in the pits here at Whistler yesterday afternoon.
  • + 1
 Yup. This dirt article shows the routing option... dirtmountainbike.com/news/first-look-specialized-demo-8.html

Wonder if this was just on preproduction/team bikes... I say this because the holes are absent on the big flat pic in this article of the non-driveside... Maybe just photoshopped out when they did the shoot.

Yes... I know I am geeking out on such a small detail.
  • + 1
 Those 2 bolts are indeed for external brake cable routing.
  • + 1
 Well if anyone would know you would. Thanks Jason! Bike looks amazing.
  • + 1
 It does look Amazing! Can't wait to see how it does at Rampage!
  • + 1
 Seems like a good bike and concept, but I have a few questions. Firstly, carbon fibre is very strong, but only in one direction, unlike aluminum, which has similar strength in all axis. Has this property been properly factored into the design of this bike? I am not sure how the angles have been reinforced, since, unlike aluminum, sharp angles increase the force on carbon fibre. Have factors such as tensile strength, Young's modulus, compressive strength, etc. been taken into account? Another question I have is what is the capability of taking brunt impacts of the carbon used in this bike? For example, if I crash and the bike also bounces around the trail, how will it stand up? Will I have to comb it for damage, or will it be in perfectly rideable condition (again, I am not talking about every single eventuality, but rather more generally). Also, I remember that the previous carbon Demo had strongly reinforced areas in the bottom bracket and head tube region. Are these found in this bike as well? I am curious to see how the bike will stand up to use by average riders, not World Cup racers who have mechanics to inspect the bike before every run. Finally, have the tube thicknesses factored in the unusual impacts of normal, everyday riding on big jump lines, compared to the impacts of a predictable race course? Again, looks like an amazing bike, but I am wondering if the durability will be of the superior level I have come to know from Specialized. I hope my questions can be answered. Thanks.
  • + 1
 Also, watching the video has clarified a few more things, such as the reinforcements in the bottom bracket area. The other questions remain, however. Again, I am genuinely curious about the design of this bike, and reserving judgement until my questions are answered. Thanks again.
  • + 6
 what a time to be alive!
  • + 1
 The pole and weight analogy doesn't really work but what the writer says in this connection might refer to the benefits of a reduction of unsprung weight or perhaps optimisation of what mechanical engineers would call the yaw moment of inertia - reduce that inertial force and the bike does become more responsive to deliberate efforts to effect changes of direction. There is a problem with this line of thinking though. The yaw moment of inertia is primarily influenced by mass centalisation i.e. moving weight (in absolute or relative terms) towards the (fore-aft) centre of the bike. The new Demo does achieve that by lightening up the rear end of the bike, but even the old Demo could easily achieve the same result by implementing the rear suspension linkage in carbon. So there seems to be nothing compelling about the new Demo design in that respect. The unique thing about the new Demo is the lowering of the centre of gravity or the rear suspension sub-assembly. But, is that really such an important thing? The CoG of the whole bike and rider is not the same thing as the CoG of one sub-assembly and lowering the CoG of the rear end may not (and probably doesn't) have a large impact on the overall CoG height. I remain to be convinced that there is anything that makes the new bike a notable improvement on the old one.
  • + 1
 I am thinking about getting this but I have one concern, the shock is completely exposed leaving it to be pelted with pebbles and dirt. Normally I wouldn't give it much thought but that Ohlins shock is too sexy to risk it. Not a deal breaker but a fender/mudguard would be nice.
  • + 1
 Well, say what you will about the bike (I dig the looks but will never own one), but at least Spec did one thing right and held off on showing the price. That way people can focus on the bike and save the internet tears for later.
  • + 1
 Soooooooo Spesh whatcha doing with all the competitors bikes you bought to test their radical rear suspension designs? Any chance of getting a deal on a used SC V10 or Pivot Phoenix. Can't be worth much due to their inferior design and components.
  • + 1
 That's concentric pivot is remarkably similar to that found on the Rotec RL9. Funny considering John Sullivan of Rotec designed and began to produce that frame in 2005.

The way the axle houses the B/B etc is all very similar. The design works great on the Rotec so it should here too.

For me personally though it's dog ugly.
  • + 2
 I found it interesting that they downplayed the Rotec design saying that the pivot location was a result of trying to lower the CG. Gee, could Rotec have possibly done this for the same reason, way back in 2005? No, no. Specialized is breaking new ground here by lowering CG... right. Not much of the tech reasoning actually spoke to me at all in this article.
  • + 2
 Devnici has a concentric pivot as well.
  • + 2
 @mammal - They didn't downplay the Rotec reference, those are my words. The concentric main pivot idea has actually been around since the early 1900s, believe it or not.
  • + 1
 Hey Mike. I realize it's an age-old design, and sure the "Rotec down-playing" were your words. My main point: Nobody can skirt around the fact that the concentric, horst 4-bar has been done ages ago just by saying "this was to lower center of gravity". Surely that was the on of the original design objectives back in 2005. Great, use a good design that works, but no need to imply that specialized is on to something new.
  • + 1
 For sure, didn't mean to imply they were doing anything new, only their stated reasons for going with it.
  • + 1
 Rotec actually mistakenly thought the concentric was a suspension design advantage, I doubt it had anything to do with center of gravity considering how high BB's were back then. Specialized seems to only be doing the concentric to lower the center of gravity, and Chamberlain even acknowledges it results in an inferior design when it comes to absorbing bumps and maintaining momentum. But the golden Ohlins shock is supposed to make up for that. ... right.
  • + 1
 With such money and work put into this development, at least they coudlve thought about etching the torque specs on every link bolt, instead of a dull FSR FSR FSR all over the place. Dang !
  • + 3
 How pissed would you be if you landed a new 2014 demo 3 months ago to see this released now!!! Quite a bit i reckon
  • + 1
 I'm all over the Demo 1. I love my 2013 Carbon Demo. Not sure why they still mate an Boxxer RC still on the front with that sweet Ohlins, but nothing an Avalanche cartridge can't fix.
  • + 2
 I love it. It's different, unique, and sexy. I will probably never own a downhill bike but if I did and I could afford the price of admission. I would.
  • + 1
 I hope Specialized will design an Enduro bike of this design influence, just don't like the X frame type of the current Specialized Enduro, it kinda look like an old school Cannondale X frame.
  • + 1
 A well known fact that a taller rider requires longer chainstays is something these big brands always choose to ignore just so they can save a bit of money in making the same rear end for all four sizes... Shameful.
  • + 1
 Quite like how it looks from the right side, but from the left side I'm still struggling with the asymmetry. I know it serves a purpose but it's preventing me from getting a bike boner. Might need some bear goggles.
  • + 4
 I was a hater, now I am a lover. So much want!
  • - 2
 PS: SHow us the Alu version please Specialized.
  • + 3
 There is no aluminum version as of right now, only the Demo 8 I Carbon that uses an aluminum link and aluminum chain stays. No pricing as of right now. Also, the aluminum 650B Demos that use the previous suspension design will still be in the lineup for 2015.
  • + 0
 Cheers Mike, we all know it's just a matter of time though. It would be interesting to see what they do with the "lefty" design, as it won;t be possible with alu.
  • + 5
 Brent Foes would disagree.
  • + 2
 @mikelevy: "...aluminum 650b Demos that use the previous suspension design..."

Say what?
  • + 3
 Its the same old demo you've seen a million times at your local bike park, only with 650b wheels.
  • + 1
 @somismtb, correct. The carbon demo's are as per the new design above and the Aluminium versions are the same as last year but slightly revised to accomodate 27.5" wheels.
  • + 2
 i think, its a beautiful fram, but only the reght side Big Grin
its asymmetrical and that is what does kills the optic.
  • + 1
 Would love to run one of these frames with RS Totems and 26in wheels. I wonder if bolting a set of 26in wheels would lower the BB to much tho?
  • + 1
 Yeah it would. It would lower the bb by at least 12.5mm if not more (will depend on tires). Unlike the new Scott gambler you don't have a high bb position. However, you may be able to get away with running a rear 26in.
  • + 2
 Specialized still don't get that integrated fork bumpers are the way of the future
  • + 1
 Integrated fork bumpers add cost that we would rather not pass along to you when the fork makers already have it covered. The bikes are expensive enough, as duly noted here. Integrated bumpers are also generally heavier and can take away strength.
  • + 2
 I'm not a S fan but damn that bike looks bad ass. I wonder what bike will be like when I'm pushing a walker.
  • + 1
 We've come to the point where there's no way of making a lighter bike than having even fewer parts. 2017 demo will probably have one magical 650b wheel only.
  • + 1
 "at the onsite of this project, we purchased every bike out there with every imaginable wheel path."....seriously? There's your R&D cost.
  • + 1
 I just want to see that high speed cam footage spec has on all the different drands reacting to bumps. Would be really really cool.
  • + 1
 anyone else notice that the suspension is the exact same as the status? specialized made an asymmetrical 650b status, and people are gonna pay through the nose for it.
  • + 3
 Wondering why the S-works wouldn't come with a WC Boxxer??
  • + 1
 Maybe beacause team is cheaper and works better, only heavier;
  • + 2
 @Oliver-Nicholas - We're going to have some more info on the spec details in the ride comparison piece, but the guys at Specialized made a decision to go with coil sprung forks because they prefer how they feel. The BoXXer uses the same Charger cartridge, just a coil instead of air.
  • + 0
 Been on a Demo for 6 years. Cant wrap my head around this Cannondale looking thing. May work great but still looks bad. My next frame for 2015 may have to change to the new YT Tues. Oh well i guess I'm fashion contentious.
  • + 1
 one of the sexiest bikes I've ever seen...too bad I would have to sell a kidney to be able to afford one. Frown
  • + 1
 What keeps the seat stays from potentially "hyper extending", opposite direction of normal movement, towards the chainstays?
  • + 2
 It's sort of a visual illusion. If you map out the I.C. you will see that it can't really rotate the wrong direction.
  • + 1
 There's foam in them frames?! Why not solid Carbon? If I'm gonna pay $10k for a bike, it better be solid carbon in my links!
  • + 2
 27.5 = completely useless
  • + 1
 well not really useless as they obviously switch to 650 wheels Wink but i was amazed they bought every single DH bike on the market to be able to
explore them.... wow they must have wild collection then Wink I would mind to own it ;P Razz
  • + 1
 I am actually surprised they admitted that. It is common practice yes, but admiditting it in a video which will be posted in the most transited mtb website is somehow odd...
  • + 1
 in the description of the bike they should add FACT you're never going to be able to afford this..
  • + 1
 Some girls sell their bodies for drugs, almost considering selling mine for this bike.
  • + 2
 10k+ price tag according to a Specialized dealers here.
  • + 1
 Interesting that they only had Brosnan riding in the video and not Gwinny?!
  • + 5
 We filmed with Troy up at Sun Peaks, a resort only a few hours away from PB HQ and where Troy has spent the last while between World Cups.
  • + 3
 Ah right! Thanks for clarifying mate!
  • + 1
 I saw Matt Hunter catching some big air in the video too.
  • + 1
 Riding looks pretty sick there! Is PB going to start reviewing resorts as well as bikes/equipment?
  • + 2
 You know, I think this Brosnan kid is going to be something some day. Great riding in this video.
  • + 1
 I think S3 refers to the fact that you can now order based on both front triangle AND seat tube lengths. For example, you could get a Large frame with a Small seat tube if you wanted a longer wheelbase but where a shorter rider.
  • + 2
 The frame seriously looks like something Waki would draw.
  • + 1
 does anyone know when the companies will release the 2015 bikes to the markets?
  • + 1
 Many models are shipping now. This Demo will be Jan 2015.
  • + 1
 And no mention of why they went with BB30 again, despite nearly all suitable DH cranks still being threaded BB only.
  • + 1
 Most 30mm alloy spindle cranksets are lighter than their 22mm steel spindle threaded counterparts. It's a great place to save weight without compromise.
  • + 1
 Right, except the compromises of parts availability, and the whole process going from easy peezy to a giant pain in the ass.
  • + 1
 There are simple adapters to step down to 22mm, but you can't adapt up to 30mm.
  • + 1
 Like the plastic ones that shipped with demo's the last few years? Yeah those were great. Everyone I knew who had them wanted to sell their bikes because of them.
  • + 1
 had a heart attack when i saw tredz list it as £7000, like who could justify that cost on a bike.
  • + 1
 You think they would at least put the saddle on straight in the close ups at 3:51
  • + 1
 Just to let you uk riders know you can test ride these babies at the pearce cycles rounds all sizes available check them out
  • + 1
 is it worth getting the frame on its own then just adding on your own parts from a previous dh bike...?
  • + 1
 ha!full 1.5!and 12x135mm.so all my old shit will fit!too bad its ugly as hell.
  • + 1
 Good to see that i was right about the mold being easier to make with a onesided support Wink
  • + 2
 Looks weird but good! Good job Specialized!
  • - 1
 S3? Seriously, an absurdly forced acronym to describe that you are now sizing bikes by top tube length? You have a plague of marketers Specialized, start culling them. With bullets.
  • + 2
 I've been sizing bike w the top tubes for decades nothing new here again. even the reach is a better way to size people on bikes
  • + 1
 S3 refers to the fact that you can now order based on both front triangle AND seat tube lengths. For example, you could get a Large frame with a Small seat tube if you wanted a longer wheelbase but where a shorter rider. It's actually kind of a cool idea - a taller rider who only rides park might choose a size Medium Frame with a size Large seat tube.
  • + 2
 Hopefully it plays nice with the Fox 40 finally!
  • + 1
 This demo is very beautiful ,but this shok don't is much good idéia. This place
  • - 2
 The Demo name has been in Specialized's lineup for nearly as long as riders have been building and sending moves that require such machines

No. Wasn't the first demo released in like'08 or something? I remember seeing Big Hits falling off of cliffs at least 4 years before that...
  • + 2
 Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first demo was released back in 04
  • + 1
 really? i thought it was 08ish and spesh's bike archive seemed to agree. Could be wrong tho.
  • + 1
 oops. looks like you are spot on. Still think people were riding big terrain far earlier than the demos release....
  • + 1
 The first Demo 9 was in 2004.
  • + 1
 yeah i was being a dumbarse. now realize had i watch the vid i woulda heard that being confirmed in the first 30 seconds. durr
  • + 1
 Radical design!!!! let put it a lefty!!!
  • + 1
 I've never wanted a bike more than this one!!
  • + 1
 Nô kashima infinity ????
  • + 1
 this design should have been cannondale's new lefty frame
  • + 0
 Looks like they took the Enduro and cut a piece off. And then decided to make it out of carbon fiber.
  • + 0
 All that story is cool, but it looks weird like wallmart bikes. So no, thanks.
  • + 1
 Did anyone else just watch this to see Troy shred?
  • + 1
 Suprised that they have not ditched this design yet.
  • + 1
 wow! rocket science seems simple now
  • + 0
 don't get your junk caught in that coil spring, or any other part of the human body. ouch, whats the point they ask.
  • - 3
 Wow, that was incredibly boring.

@ Spesh - you guys made a pretty sick looking bike. Gwin and Troy are awesome riders at the top of their game right now. I want to re-edit your video to have 1/2 the middle age men in offices talking while people draw on computers, 2x as much riding and swap out the music for some form of metal. That is all.

Someone please take on this project as I have no video editing skills what so ever.
  • + 1
 integrated fork bumpers??
  • + 1
 "Revised Style-Specific Geometry"

LOL @ marketing.
  • + 1
 Specialized please make Enduro with same design )
  • + 1
 O my that's a good looking bike.
  • + 1
 As a demo fanboy for the last ten years all I can say is 'meh'.
  • + 2
 Love it!!!
  • + 2
 fugly
  • + 1
 Looks like an asymmetrical Session
  • + 1
 if im buy this bike, can i use it with 26'' wheels ? i dont like 650b
  • + 1
 Snap!
  • + 1
 Sold.
  • + 1
 Expensive piece of art!
  • + 1
 It's got a wasp shock
  • + 1
 Soooo is Mitch dead?
  • + 1
 and the price is?
  • + 3
 To be announced. Specialized isn't sure yet.
  • + 5
 I guess the marketing team is brainstorming between "one of your kidneys" or "sell your kids lungs" for the s-works edition.

BTW, it's probably one of the slickiest design I've seen in a long time... And I guess we're going to see a bunch of those next year, despite the price...
  • + 0
 It is more like a machine
  • + 1
 Found this on a site. But I guess it is just a place holder.


www.pinkbike.com/photo/11290965
  • + 1
 Eight grand? I hardly believe so.... i would sell all my bikes and get that one
  • + 1
 Ehh what... size doesn't matter??
  • + 1
 Highly believable the price has stayed the same, considering the frame is easier to make and the cheaper fork. Dirt are reporting £7000 for the S-Works which is exactly the same price.
  • + 1
 12x135???
  • + 1
 We recommend only running 7 cogs, and that is the way the bikes will come spec'd. When only using the outer most 7 cogs, a 135 provides the correct chainline to an 83 front.
  • + 1
 Price - TBA - oh boy.
  • + 0
 DAT REAR AXLE
  • + 0
 Josh Bryceland.
  • + 0
 take my money now.
  • + 2
 ain't enough though. Try harder.
  • + 0
 u must to pay 10000AUD
  • + 0
 ugly frame
  • - 2
 the best bike in the world, prices please, who needs a car anyway, want this bike so much
  • - 2
 just no.
  • - 2
 Not a fan.....dont wanna go 650B....
  • + 14
 don't get it then
  • + 16
 Dont tell me what to do.
  • + 3
 @Pitcrew made me laugh that!!

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