Pinkbike's Burning Question - Does Size Matter?
THE
BURNING QUESTION
BURNING QUESTION
WORDS Mike Levy
Today's burning question is: Can the small guys compete, and how much does it matter to you how small or large the company behind your bike actually is? Representing the small guys is Jeff Steber, the president and co-founder of one of mountain biking's most celebrated names, Intense Cycles. On the opposite spectrum we have Specialized, a brand that started from scratch during the birth of the production mountain bike and went on to become one of the largest in the biz. Jason Chamberlain is the senior engineer responsible for many of the their preeminent bikes and will be leading the charge for Specialized in today's Burning Question.
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The biblical legend of David vs. Goliath is one that we all know well, with David defeating the massive Philistine warrior with a single, well aimed stone pitched hard from his sling. Regardless of whether the story is based on historical facts or simply a long-standing fable, we can all compare parallels from our current lives to the tale. From the bespectacled and under-sized youngster who not only makes the starting rotation of his school's basketball team, but becomes its star player; to the small, local coffee shop that digs its heels in and thrives when a Starbucks comes to town; the general lesson is that there is more to one's capacity than can be judged by size alone. Historically speaking, the role of Goliath is usually viewed as the antagonist, but what if the Goliath of our story began life as a David - small, in it for the love of the sport, and still full of employees who are not only in it for that very reason, but also ride just as much as any mountain biker anywhere? We're talking about Specialized, of course, who grew from one of the first mountain bike-centric companies into a 'Goliath' of sorts, with over one thousand employees working under the Big Red S banner. The David of our story is Intense, who were also not only present during some very important periods in the development of our sport, but have a storied history of their own that deserves book or two in itself .
Specialized and Intense may be worlds apart when it comes to size, but they both have the same goal: to design mountain bikes that kick ass. It is up to you, the consumer, to choose who you prefer. Can a larger company like Specialized (or Trek/Giant etc), who clearly have more resources available to them, produce a better finished product than a smaller company? Does Intense's relatively small size automatically mean that they have more 'soul'? Does it matter? And do you even care what name is splayed on your bike's down tube so long as the bike works well?
Intense vs. Specialized
Jeff Steber: president and co-founder of Intense Cycles 
When it comes to product development, how does a relatively small company like Intense compete with the sizeable resources of a larger manufacturer? “I am going to focus this question on our in-house, USA manufacturing since that is a strength of ours and something that makes us different from the pack. Intense has had to learn to be lean and get the most out of limited resources - focusing on our strengths. We are able to develop products faster, as the manufacturing is at hand. This also enables us to react to and create trends quickly (Intense is already shipping their 27.5'' Carbine and Tracer models)." Intense's ability to adapt quickly to the changing landscape, such as the 27.5" momentum must certainly help? "I can fab up a proto, weld it, heat treat it, and be riding it the next day. In turn, for a small company we have been able to be quite prolific with the models that we offer. We are also able to develop the 'tweener models in-between the main bike segments that the big guys do not bother with." The relationship between the customer and the manufacturer is something that many riders take to heart when considering the brand of their next mountain bike. Does Intense bring something to the customer service table that a larger brand cannot? “I can only say that we try our best on this one, and I will personally answer questions and help customers out with issues etc - you might not get that from a bigger company. I had built the brand on racing, and through the early years had worked on many racer's bikes at NORBAs and World Cups. Racers knew that if they needed a bolt, a link, or whatever, they could come by the Intense pit and get taken care of." Don't more people simply ride mountain bikes than actually race them, though? "In recent years we have put a lot more energy towards customer service as being high-end, the customers gets a bit more. We have put more thought into ease of maintenance and reliability in the new designs, better bearing systems, new tube sets, grease ports etc."  Intense can manufacture a prototype very quickly, an asset when a design needs to be investigated. Carbon fiber has become the leading material to use when building high performance frames. How are the smaller, boutique brands able to compete in the carbon fiber arena with the bigger players? "This is a tough one and I am living every day. The big companies own that market as the development costs to do carbon are so high, but at the same time it is becoming the material of choice for high-end mountain bikes. Intense has invested over the years into a factory that makes high-end aluminum, and I compare it to years ago when chromoly steel was replaced almost overnight by aluminum - if you didn't jump on the band wagon you where left in the dust. There will be a lot of the smaller guys struggling with this; some will do whatever it takes, some will get smaller and more niche, and some will disappear." Intense has debuted a number of new carbon frames recently... "I think it shows the dedication to our brand and loyal customers that we will do whatever it takes, and now we have some beautiful carbon frames and a few more on the way. I do miss my beloved, vintage '62 Strat, and my Rory Galliger Strat, and, and... I had to sell those to help fund this stuff, but in the end it is all worth it and a new generation of Intense. I must say at the same time that the big guys have developed the sources in Asia for carbon and now it is easier to get quality carbon frames; kind of like automotive, aerospace, and sporting goods. Carbon products set things up for bicycles."  They may have a celebrated past, but Intense is looking to the future. | Jason Chamberlain: senior engineer, Specialized 
What does a comparatively large company like Specialized bring to the product development phase that might not be feasible for a smaller operation? "There seems to be a faction that views successful companies as inherently sinister. I am excited to point out the great things that larger bicycle companies are able to provide their riders. It is somewhat intuitive that companies with higher sales volume have more resources to support product development. Now, in order to truly reap the benefits of those resources, a larger company has to be willing to invest in product development. I am lucky to be in a company that truly does. With the support of a larger company, I am free to simply focus on designing the best bikes possible - I don’t have to design a bike to fit a profit margin. Brandon Sloan (Director of High Performance Mountain Bikes) tells me to simply build the best bike that I can imagine without thinking about the cost. The bike’s performance is the only consideration throughout the design process. I don’t have to worry about accounting, marketing, or setting up the trade show booths. At the design phase, it’s all about the bike, not the business." So, more resources means that each part of the team can focus more on their specific task? "The tools and technology that enable cutting-edge designs are expensive, and larger companies are able to provide the latest computers and software, setup prototype shops and test labs, etc. With those resources in place we have the ability to go from concept to ride-able sample rapidly. We can simultaneously pursue a number of different ideas, ensuring that what goes to market represents the truest advancement in performance. Larger companies have people in dedicated roles to help translate ideas into real-world functionality and apply the finishing touches. At Specialized, we have a fantastic team of talented people in industrial design, graphics and art, quality, purchasing, lab testing, data acquisition, machining and prototyping. We also have experts in 3D computer modelling and carbon fiber layup. Collaboration across all of those groups is critical in taking a good concept and developing a bike that will make you the envy of all of your friends." Which projects have been the most memorable? Brandon Sloan and I combined have over a quarter century developing bikes just for Specialized. We are very proud of the work we have done. Projects like the 2002 Enduro and the 2004 Demo 9 were genre-defining and still stand up today. Platforms like the Epic and Stumpjumper continue to be game changers every year we reintroduce them. We can still offer niche products like the slalom-specific SX, Single Speed 29er Carbon hardtail, Troy Lee Edition Demo, or the rare McLaren Venge. Even though we are a huge company, we operate like a collection of small companies. We are very competitive internally. When the road group came out with an ultra-limited $18,000 McLaren Venge, it makes the MTB team want to one-up them with an even better Demo!" With after market sales support greatly affecting how a company is perceived, how does Specialized combat the common perception that customer service can suffer as a company becomes larger? "It doesn’t matter if you are a big company or a small company, you can rise or fall when it comes to customer service. I’m not sure that I understand where people are coming from when they immediately assume that larger companies simply care less about their customers. To me, it seems the exact opposite - a larger company is able to do more for their customers. On the front-end, it can invest in a tighter quality program to help prevent defects, but it also has the resources to stock product to be held for warranty replacement if that should ever be necessary. The last thing we want is to compound the frustration of a defect with significant delay in providing a replacement."  The Status is relatively inexpensive, yet one of the best performing platforms that we've spent time on. Can a large company still exude passion? "I take my hat off to the smaller bike companies for what they are able to do. Everyone has a preference, so more power to you if a smaller company produces a bike that is right for you. It seems that there are people who will object to larger companies no matter what, but I think that companies with higher sales volume can use their resources to do things that directly benefit customers. Don’t forget that those larger bicycle companies began as smaller companies and grew because of the success of their products. Specialized was founded and run out of Mike Sinyard’s VW van. He is still passionate today about riding and probably rides as much or more than any other bike company owner. Outsiders who get a peek inside Specialized are usually surprised by the lack of suits and number of dogs roaming the halls. Specialized employs bicycle enthusiasts, not corporate drones. We all ride, all the time." |
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by the way, i used to be a spesh dealer, so im not just saying what i think, im saying what i know...
there are such a limited frame design options, that even a small company can stick to some design and make better than a big company that changes designs every year and doesn't really get it right!.
I faced this same question a month ago , and bought a titus el guapo (900$ shipped), for me the best bike is one that is personalized to suit its user!.
Either way as long as the product is good , the back up is good and the company has a good reputation i'm happy riding any brand.
Now as far as the bikes...I think they are about equally competitive but specialized moved onto carbon. Intense will catch up though, quickly, I'm sure.
It's true that "big companies" have the ressources to invest more in the whole bike making process but do they really bother or their primary objective is making more money so they try to keep it cost efficient in the end instead of putting a focus on quality?
My cousin was building up a Tr250 last month and some how his frame arrived with a huge dent in the downtube. Now this probably was a result of the shipping company, but when he called transition and asked if there was anything he could do to get a different frame, they apologized numerous times and shipped him another brand knew frame and he got it the next day for no additional charge.
That's one hell of a company IMO!
the replacement EL GUAPO is waiting for drivetrain parts (1x10).
if a frame is good there is no reason to change it! (until it breaks apart).
Warranty is overrated !
If this is even true, why is it sad? Don't we as riders want the best possible bikes to ride regardless of what size company they came from? I think this statement (like many more I've seen in the comments) highlights the shift in ideology in our culture towards a disdain for large, successful businesses. Remember, just because a business grows due to success doesn't make them bad.
Also - how is this for a testimonial:
INTENSE Punishment
Yesterday I clocked up my 510th run in the Whistler Bike Park, not to mention the 2 worldcups and other BC races I've done. The M9 has withstood the punishment. No frame bolts came loose, no bearings had to be replaced which is a testament to the quality of the American made brand!
Chris Kovarik
lifetime means the lifetime of the frame which is about 2 - 3 years, one of the best warranties i know comes from Nicolai (5years under racing contitions)
www.nicolai.net
Only company I know that has a lifetime warrany is Kona and they just brought that out a few years ago.
From spesh's FAQ section (last updated oct 2011) framesets have a limited lifetime warranty. They state its valid for the lifetime of the original owner. Their proprietary suspension have 5 years warranty and the other stuff is 1 year. Don't quote me on that but I'm pretty sure I read on their website back then that my demo 8 2010 only had a 1 year warranty but I can't find the info anymore so it's possible that it changed in the last few years.
Devinci also has a lifetime warranty on their bikes. Not sure about the other brands.
A lot of people are hyping intense. The only 2 people I know riding them had major problems on their framesets. They honored their warranty even if it was expired and the two guys still swear by bikes as the best they've ever ridden. I guess they're worth the hassle but from what I've seen, I wouldn't buy their framesets to be honest.
you checked the facts and said it yourself: LIMITED lifetime warranty, it's just BS.......
Spez is a huge Taiwanese company doing business in the US (just like Giant and KHS). rather than going into what I know about Spez and probably loosing the rest of my fans and followers out here in Pinkbike (I have over 25 years in the bike industry including racing and I know the inner working of just about every company so I now LOTS of dirt) I will simply say this...
As long as you are riding what makes you happy, it is all good. I (obviously) would want my bikes and company to make you happy but I love Kevin and Kyle at Transition (old friends, same with Chris and Lance Canfied) and I hope everyone buys or at lease seriously looks at and gets to talk to a smaller company before they consider a large brand. it is us small companies that drive the sport and drive the market, not the large dollar marketing budgets of the the big guys. it is Jeff at Intense that started all this IMHO and he is still fighting the good fight no matter how big he gets (which is needed it seems to break even). at the end of the day it is all a business and you speak with your money. do you want to help feed small, rider/racer owned family-centered companies or do you want to feed your money to large, international, multi-million dollar companies that don't need your money?
Oneghost, The guys at Transition are awesome. I'm all about supporting the local people in the industry including the local bike shops. Specialized started from nothing, and the employees and owner are riders for life. Say what you want to support your company, however Specialized is the one big company out there that deserves to be as big as they have become. I'm all about customer service, and Specialized is on top in that category. Transition has killer customer service as well, and I love their approach and ethics. Innovation is important in our sport as we continue to push the envelope with what is possible on a bicycle.
It just happens to be that they mostly sell the bigger brands, so I will have to stick to the bigger brands not because I like them more (I'd love a Banshee Rune, but they're hard to come by here), but because of practical reasons such as warranty, advice and all of this. Because I will also be moving to another country next year, I want to get me a Stumpy Evo. I trust a brand as big as Specialized to have solutions for my problems more readily available within a bigger action radius.
forums.mtbr.com/specialized/2005-demo-8-pro-broken-107267.html
I used to work for a distributor importing and selling 2 small brands (1 USA made, 1 Canadian made in Asia) , and 1 small-to-medium sized brand (Canadian made)
the 2 small brands had ongoing issues with QC and warranties were a joke, often taking months to resolve
the small-to-medium sized brand had good QC and warranties were dealt with in a reasonable time frame, but spares (pivot hardware, mech hangers, etc.) were sometimes hard to source and could take weeks if not months to come into stock
we also sold Specialized as the only 'complete bike' brand in our stores, we rarely had any issues with their products, and if we did they were generally taken care of within 48 hours, creating no stress for our staff and a happy customer
I've also worked for stores selling Trek and Giant, and found similar positive experience with Trek when rarely warranty was required. I've sold many other small, medium and big brands and have generally found the the big brands to have the best products, best pricing, best QC and best warranty back up / customer services
I used to love the kudos of the small brand, but from my experiences as a retailer and also as a customer, I'd take a bike from the big brands every single time.
this season? had a problem with a mis-machined (0.2mm) BB shell (PF30) on my aluminium Stumpjumper, and within 48 hours had a brand new, free upgrade to the Carbon Fibre frame, and was back out riding the trails the next day
I compare to this a frame I had from a small brand, with a mis-machined, bearing socket in the swingarm pivot, waited over 6 months for a replacement frame, only to find the same issue on the replacement frame
Also a good relationship with your local shop often leads to better than internet discounts and a credit sheet....
Most companys sell to us, or our shops, via distribution companys so it's actually the national distributor (not manufacturer) who is responsible for delayed returns, repairs, orders et al, or indeed the 24hr warranty replaced frame...... I could carry on this B.S. for hours but here's the bottom line.
I say we need the small guys for diversity and cool and we need the big guys for investment and support and they all need us to keep buying.
Buy bikes, ride bikes.
P.s. I'm well aware that many "62 strats are crap so any avid musos out there need not beat me.
The key thing is warranty: It should not be needed, ever, and if it is, it should be instant. I don't even want to talk to someone if my frame cracks, I just want a new one by the next weekend.
However, she had just purchased a custom built 2013 S-Works Tarmac from our store, and when we spoke to Specialized UK, they understood her situation and have offered to cover her faulty 5 year old frame under warranty. Her old frame is being shipped to Specialized UK today, and she has been offered a choice of different road frames (Tarmac, Venge, Ruby, etc.) so she can build another bike to complement her new custom built bike.
Awesome service from the big "S".
I would call Specialized USA directly and speak to their customer services department, and tell them about the problem with the helmet replacement and how it has changed your feelings about the brand; big companies actually benefit from hearing about these kinds of local problems (that you had getting your new helmet) as it can often be because of a communication problem between a local representative or dealer than any deliberate action to turn your custom away
you will often find they will be very keen to assist you as it costs them nothing but goodwill, and turning a negative into a positive only benefits your perception of them (this is true of any brand)
The simple matter of fact is that if a small company has always been small, they simply have not been managed well as it has not been able to take market share from other companies.
With regards to Specialized "trying to put the small guys out of business", I won't completely disagree, but I will add the following: I feel safe in my estimation that Specialized's single most valuable asset (by far) is their brand equity. If so, they must defend it with every means necessary and extinguish anything that has even the most remote chance of diluting it.
But fear not, the small guys will always have a chance, at least in the bike industry. The consumer base is exceptionally segmented, with preferences ranging from suspension design, appearance, geometry, etc, etc. There is no way for the big guys to cover all the bases, so smaller companies will be there to pick up the pieces.
I think it's ridiculous when people abandon their favorite bands because they become popular and allegedly "sell out". Every band's goal is to bring their music to more people, otherwise they wouldn't tour or record songs.
Marketingoutlets of the chinese manufacturing complex like GT, Specialized, Giant are thumbs down.
For some parts like forks, rims, tires there is no option but to buy chinese.
Or lets see - Campagnolo gear setup on my DH?
unfortunately Intense are now using the "asian sweatshopware" as they switch to asian-made carbon fibre manufacturing for their new frames - no longer USA made
btw, Commencal have always been made in Asia
I think BMC carbon frames are made in Switzerland but it might be only road frames, dunno. Anyway, top tube's too high for my taste and the price tag's too high for my wallet. Apart of that I'd be very curious to know what's made around. Let's make a list. I'll start it, please add up to it if you know some other brands made in EU (and I'm not talking about CroMo hardtails):
Orange
Home (born dead)
Caminade (to which I predict the same future cause of the Cromo full sus and really weird design, but hopefully I'm wrong)
Who else?
Nonetheless, any time a compant outsources its manufacturing plants to Taiwan, they are requires to use the same quality machinery and work environments that said company would provide in the states. Take a look around for pictures of the Giant warehouse that produces a large number of bicycles for other companies. Top notch machines, clean work environments, of age employees that look like they had a hot shower, and clean
clothes that morning. Then look closer and see all the brands you can name that they produce. In one photo, a guy was packaging up a Scott bike, with a bontrager wheel in the foreground, and a
Colnago boxed bike in the background.
No longer are manufactures outsourcing their bikes to Asia for cheaper costs. Sure, that may be part of if, but I would say its because the employees do it better, complain less, work harder, and willing to do it without the greedy pay a white man in the states requires.
Commencal have never been made in Andorra. like many companies they are a "design/marketing" company with off-shore production in Taiwan (also China, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.), nothing wrong with that model of business its very common amongst small, medium and large cycle companies.
however, the reason many small companies have long delays on customers receiving warranty frame or parts is because the small companies do not hold sufficient stock in their warehouse.
many small companies do not even have a warehouse (just an office for design and marketing), but ship straight from their factory to the in-country distributor.
some small companies do not even have an office, it can be a guy working from his laptop and co-ordinating with a factory in Taiwan.
so for warranty claims, the small companies rely on the next production run in Asia (TW) and then surface shipping to the in-country distributor. This is why it can take weeks if not months to receive a particular size/model of warranty frame (they are made in batches on a cyclic production schedule)
I'm well aware of where C.F. is coming from, and there is no harm (or choice) in companies like Intense and Ellsworth (both USA made) and Devinci (Canadian made) moving their production to Taiwan for their newer carbon fibre frames (or frame components).
The only shame perhaps, is they all spent a long time building up their domestic factories (especially Devinci) and they will start losing the production capacity and skill base as the market demands carbon fibre, and aluminium alloy becomes exinct in high end frames / bikes
Devinci have had their cheaper aluminium alloy frames (their recreational, comfort bikes and affordable hardtail mountain bikes) made off-shore in Taiwan for some years already, and was only the higher end aluminium alloy F.S. and Bixi bikes (mass transit city rental i.e. London's "Boris Bikes') that were made in Quebec.
With their move to carbon fibre, what would still be made in Quebec, just the swingarm (aluminium) for the carbon Wilson DH bike? Is this the same for Intense, I read they still CNC the aluminium short links for their carbon VPP frames in their USA facility?
The above stated, I have kicked the living shit out of my '10 SX trail and it hasn't even flinched. I love this bike. I would love more than anything though, to own a bike that was hand made in Canada or the US. So I'm looking at Intense, Devinci and Cove. Everyone brings something to the table. It's what aligns with your ideals and riding needs that should make your decision.
Call big brand dealer
Maybe dealer thinks rep will listen
Rep listens.
Maybe rep says sure, we'll act.
Inside warranty guy listens.
Maybe inside warranty guy does or doesn't have authority to take action.
Warranty manager gets involved.
May or may not act.
Buy replacement part/frame off EBay while waiting for answer
Problem Scenario II:
Call Intense or Turner.
Rep may or may not know answer.
Rep asks Steber or or DT.
Problem solved
1) You buy the bike
2) You break the bike (optional, only occurs in 1% of cases)
3) You send it back
4) The company realises they made a profit margin of several hundred % over the marginal cost of making and posting out a replacement frame.
5) This results in a policy of simply replacing it with no questions asked.
6) You are a happy customer, bike company is down what, 200£ if it was say an 8"DH frame, and you rave on the internet how great Company XYZ is.
I've seen more intense M9 in Whistler than any other brand. Sure Whistler may not be representative... Still! Intense might not be that big, but it ain't small either. Plus it has a really big name (that I like a lot!). Intense's just playing with this cause they know it's good for their image: a small hardcore brand resisting the big ones still making in the us (at least the aluminum bikes). Like Asterix against Ceasar (might well be an unknown cartoon out of the EU "borders")
I have purchased and used several specialized products including some Specialized gloves I had...the velcro to tighten the glove basically fell off of the fabric and I was left with a big flapping piece of fabric while I was riding. I emailed support and they told me that it was due to wear and tear...fair enough...However, I had only wore the gloves for maybe 10 days of riding. I also had a Specialized Deviant Carbon Helmet which literally fell apart after my 3rd time ever wearing it (Inside EVA detached from the carbon shell) making it extremely unsafe. After visiting my local bike shop they told me to contact Specialized support. I emailed there customer support line multiple times but never even got a response back.
Now what am I supposed to think of there company? They didn't even bother to REPLY me to say No we can't help you out.
Either way, yes I agree that my LBS could've put a little more care into there customers...especially on accessory items...
I'm not competing in world cup so I don't care about those fancy researches done in big companies
besides you are spending some major dough on to your bikes. Do you really want a bike that everyone has?
Also bigger composites have name value so they will usually charge more money
"those fancy researches" (to correctly quote you) are what keeps the bike from splitting in half, carving your calf open with razor sharp aluminum, and bleeding you out in the middle of the woods.
Small companies do their research, sure, but the big ones push the boundaries more often in pursuit of what CAN be done.
The smaller manufacturers can have a design more biased to a kind of terrain or riding that prevails in their region, giving the rider a product that will need less care.
So what kind of customer care is more important for you: to have the parts you need immediately available, or have someone ready to help you tuning your bike?
1) Intense SS1
2) Transitions Double
3) Transitions Trail-or-Park
and I love all three of them!!!
I don't see how people disassociate the riding variable as soon as a big name is dropped.
For God's sake, on Specialized's "Careers" page, when you apply, there are MULTIPLE questions about what you ride, when you ride it, why you got into Mtn biking, etc...
STOP trying to take the weight from a big company's employees by inferring that they don't ride.
Oh and also, PRO TESTING and RIDER FOCUS GROUPS. That helps the big names too.
Apparantly my 3 year old intense m6 was out of warranty and the did not have the part because so many broke (top link).
I now have a specialized. If it is not covered by warranty they just give you cost.
But I have yet to have a frame failure.
Add to that the hardcore lawyering up they have been doing and using their vast amounts of money to make other companies lifes hell...seems a little like corporate bullying to this old guy.
velonews.competitor.com/2012/01/news/an-expensive-dollar-volagi-owes-specialized-1_203443
I think the bigger factor many forget about is what happens when things go wrong.
Ya so you bought your low production Intense M9, or your one of a kind euro speciality bike....but you had a crash in whistler and need to replace a pivot bolt, or you bent something in your rear triangle, or derailleur hanger.
It's all well and good that you have a low production bike, and it rides like a dream, but sometimes when things go wrong, and you need parts in a hurry you are then waiting days/nights/weeks for a part to come from the bike maker because shops dont sell them or stock them because they are so uncommon.
Anyone that races knows this. Anyone who rides bike parts knows this.
You ride a specialized demo you can pretty much brake anything on the bike anywhere, at any park or race, and the bike shop or race guys around the pits will have spare parts to replace/fix your every need. It's because everyone rides the damn things and so everyone has parts for them.
Having owned an intense, i know this all too well. Pivot bolt backed out, had to call intense because they are custom aluminum and no one in Western Canada had a replacement.
Something to think about when purchasing your next bike.
Full disclosure: I still support boutique brands, i ride a TR450, but they are almost as common in Whistler as Demo's so i'm not overly concerned, and their head office is a 3 hour drive away if things ever got real bad.
-don't make cheap options if the components are going to suck and ruin the bike
-customer service is way more important than anything else= if something fails where will I be able to get a replacement- specialized has some weird custom stuff that makes it impossible to get a replacement from anyone but them, and the shops don't even order stuff that you need. What about intense- they don't have any dealers around here,custom stuff that you don't get anywhere.
I don't care who makes it, make a good bike at a reasonable price and with a service that will be able to get replacements for stuff that gets broken.
designed in Cali built in oregon.
A BC resident (to give an example) will probably be able to get an exclusive, small brand bike and be happy with it and have quick and good support for it, but a guy like me in Spain away from anything similar to that will have to go for a bigger brand that can ensure I get my replacement parts and my support without having to pay lots and wait even more.
1. I have ridden big and small companies( specialized,ventana,ibis). I think the smaller companies produce cooler looking bikes. This matters because the more you like your bike the more you will ride it. Although To be fair, I do use Specialized pro carbon MTn. Shoes( 2 pairs).
2. The smaller companies make more expensive bikes myth is BS. Specialized makes a $9900 mountain bike. I think the most expensive Ibis Mojo HD is $7500.
3. I have not dealt with customer service at Specialized. But I have met Sherwood , from Ventana at Sea Otter. And Scot Nichol personally answered one of my emails. I he never seen Sinyard at Sea Otter...
4. Big companies don't always make a better tested product: Specialized suspension products were a train wreak. The Gary Fisher Roscoe rear triangle is a cracked rear triangle waiting to happen.
5. This is the part that PISSES me off about the big companies, and has not been mentioned in this post: big companies make the stores that carry their products agree to stock a majority of their product. I have heard "rumors" that Specialized makes you stock 40% of your store with ONLY their products.
If you think you make the best product, why not let the customer choose your product over another?
Ibis Mojo?
Santa Cruz Nomad?
Turner 5 spot?
All use new designs and suspension linkages, and I would argue are very experimental looking bikes. All small companies.
I find the opposite to be true. The little companies have been defining the industry for the last five years.
How long has Specialized been using the Horst Link? 20 years?
Kind of surprised that I haven't seen anybody say this. For me, I know what I want, knew that my purchase wouldn't end up in the garage and so was willing to spend some coin. Went with a boutique brand for myself (ibis) and couldn't be happier.
That said, if a friend comes to me asking for advice on their first nice bike - I tell them to go check out the local specialized dealer. Purchasing power means $2500 on a specialized gets you a top frame with a solid component spec. It only seems to be at the $4k and above price point where the boutiques can catch up. Me, I love that Ibis is within 15 minutes of my house and that if I have a problem, there is a good chance I can show up at their door and be treated like family.
The other picture is trying to convey "hey this bike is light, I'm lifting it with ease." I can see the front wheel resting on a surface. I'm sure the rear one is too.
Anywhoo, after reading most of the posts here, why do I feel like Specialized fans are like Apple fans?
rang up mr 24-7 said i bought this frame new few months ago and its cracked in 3 places how do i get it replaced. and i was told i had to send the whole bike to them at my expense for them to inspect it to see if it had been abused ect. even though it was only the frame that was 24-7. so basicly they just fed me a fu*k off tablet. as i was not paying to send them my bike only to tell me its been abused or jumped so they cant replace it. shit customer service and full of shit offering a "no bull lifetime warranty" so not all small companies are good no matter how for the rider or passionate about riding they are. but not all companies are like these.
As far as customer service, Specialized is pretty hard to beat. (I work at a shop that is a Specialzed dealer) and other than some bad freehub bodies that we have had a hard time getting hold of lately, they have been awesome. And in some of those freehub cases, they have sent out complete wheels and in two cases complete wheelsets when a rear wheel wasn't available.
As far as the lifetime warranty, it is clear that it is to the original owner and they may require a proof of purchase. More companies are starting to ask for proof of purchase.. Look at the Black Market warranty page.. And with so many FR/DH riders out thrashing on used bikes, should the companies warranty a frame with no questions asked?
I guess if money was no object I would have a mix of bikes in my garage... Support my friends at Transition and One Ghost, but still have some cool S-works level stuff in there too...
No, not sinister, just able to have enough money and lawyers to put the little guys out of business .
Epic Wheelworks in Portland, OR: Specialized sent a threatening letter demanding they change their name. The shop ONLY builds custom wheels.
Epic Designs Alaska: Demanded they change their name. Epic sells frame bags for adventure rides like the tour divide.
The corporate bullying at the BIG S keeps me from purchasing their products.
Perhaps they can try "Intense Wheelworks" and "Intense Designs" next. It seems reasonable to me for a company of any size to protect it's trademarks.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33282954/ns/business-small_business/t/monster-threatens-vermonster-beer-brewer/#.UIbcl4V1HQw
I'm just saying that in this discussion about big vs. small it's a factor in my purchasing decisions. It might be important for Specialized to protect perceived trademark infringements but it's important for me to not support corporate bullying.
krisrayner: I know exactly what you are talking about. I have a friend that owns a shop and because a Specialized concept store came into town, he acts like they are the devil. In reality, my friend is a close-minded individual in a huge biking community that fails to innovate with the sport on almost all levels. Customer service is almost non-existent, high pressure sales, no price breaks, etc. I live almost 6 hours from him, I come into town with a pedal issue and since I forgot a pedal wrench, I had to buy one from him instead of him letting me use one.
Yeah, I don't think it's bullying, it's the small companies running themselves out of business.
Oh, and the FSR patent is ridiculous. You can find that linkage in engineering texts from around World War 1, more commonly applied to tanks, cars etc than bicycles admittedly.
R.I.P. Miii + ST4 + Elite + P7 + Pure7 + G3 + G2
Does this ranked list (biggest to smallest) that I made up look somewhat accurate? I basically just considered model range, amount of R&D, history, race team and sponsored riders, number of shops carrying them, perceived estimated size of management and R&D, market influence, patents, aggressiveness, etc. Just guessing. Someone who has access to sales figures might come up with a more credible list.
Trek
Spec
Giant
Scott
Cannondale
Rocky Mountain
Santa Cruz
GT
Lapierre
Kona
Yeti
Intense
Pivot
Devinci
Commencal
Norco
KHS
Orange
Titus/On-One
Ibis
Turner
Ellsworth
Knolly
Transition
Banshee
Nuke Proof
Morewood
Tomac
Foes
Cove
Canfield
Zerode
Couldn't really fit these in anywhere: Polygon, MDE, Mongoose, Diamondback, Canyon, Fezzari, Orbea, Jamis, Felt...
Edit: I ranked the SoCal bike co's a bit higher than I should've. Being local to them, I see them all around me, which kind of made them look bigger than how others may see them. Canadian and Euro brands are likely misplaced, since this is coming from an American POV.
Good bikes cost money. Design, materials, distribution, and most importantly, limited production runs. It's a lot more difficult to sell a high-end bike than it is to sell an I-Phone. The lower production numbers result in a higher proportion of the fixed costs and overhead being tacked on to the price tag of each bike. It's just math. Very few companies get rich manufacturing bikes. Most do it because they love it. Look at Steber in the above story. Dude had to sell off his personally owned guitars just try to keep up with the big players in the carbon game. Anyone with any ounce of sympathy has to be feeling for him, becuase they sound like some really nice guitars that he must have cared for dearly.
20 Euros per hour, where in China? hhahahhahah
You have to pay tax on a service or product where it is supplied or purchased, not where it is made. Being in the EU, there is no import duty to ship a bike to Greece from another EU country, like France, however you will have to pay Greek VAT (which is pretty low for the most part but 23% for bicycles I think? Stand to be corrected). Further, whilst the factory is in Andorra, and no corporation tax is applicable, the headquarters are in France and any profits Commencal make are therefore subject to French corporate tax.
Now if we take a look at how a bike can cost a bike shop €1700 and you €2700. The €2700 consists of the €1700 that the bike shop paid for it. 23% VAT means that is a €505 chunk right there, taking the cost to the bike shop so far to €2205 (they pay the VAT on your behalf). That leaves €495 to pay for the shop, employees, any other overheads, and when you consider that they might have a €2700 bike taking up space on the shop floor for many months, this is not a huge profit margin. Any profit they make after paying overheads will be subject to tax as well, so I suspect the margin on a €2700 bike is probably around €100.
If you want to go back further in the chain, a distributor will likely supply the bike shop. Distributors purchase from the manufacturers. Both distributors and manufacturers have to make profit to function, manufacturers especially so that they can re-invest in R&D. Without profits, none of these vital links in the supply chain will exist, and you wouldn't be able to buy your bike. Welcome to the ugly world of capitalism, but without it, you'd be walking.
What you really need to focus on is how lucky you are to be able to afford a €2700 bike.
Same size wheels , same frame material, same component spec.
The specialized costs $9900.00
The Santa Cruz costs $8100.00
What makes the bike cost $1800 more?
Great frames, check
Great accessories, check
Great in house components , uncheck.
Tires.. Well, I will give the Big S a C+.. The mtn tires seem to do well for us, but some of the other tires (road and hybrid/comuter) have left a bit to be desired..
At least they are like some many companies that simply open a catalog, select an item, email logo to Taiwan, and BAM new product!