Update: A Better Look at Norco's New Long Travel Bike
The problem with trying to guess how a bike works from looking at grainy photos is that sometimes you miss a key detail that wasn't quite clear in the 50 pixels that made up the actual frame. We speculated last week that the new Norco long travel bike may use flex stays for its suspension system, but now that we've had a better look at it under the team riders at Kicking Horse we've changed our opinion slightly.
The key detail we missed is that there's a (now) very obvious pivot on the swing arm. It's still a pretty unconventional design though and it looks like a similar layout to the Antidote Darkmatter's high pivot system.
Some other things we picked up are that it's a 29er front and rear and we're also no longer certain this is a new downhill bike. It's very definitely a long travel bike of sorts and the pros are running it with a dual crown fork for the rebirth of the Psychosis, but is it a full on downhill bike or an oversized enduro bike? At this point, we're not entirely sure but we think it could be a long travel bike that can be run with a single or double crown fork, a bit like the Slayer from Rocky Mountain, hence the bottle mounts. Either way, it definitely looks to be one of the most interesting bikes of the year and we look forward to learning more when Norco releases it.
Original article
We may not be getting much downhill racing this year, but you can bet that brands haven't been sitting on their hands. Instead, they'll have been using this downtime to find any mechanical advantage they can for when the World Cups get kick-started again.
One brand that we think has been doing just that is Norco, and this looks to be a brand new downhill bike underneath one of its riders spotted in British Columbia. Pinkbike user Tonkatruck went above (or should that be below) and beyond to get this spy shot from underneath a truck and then uploaded the pictures to our forums for us to pore over.
Norco's previous downhill bike used the distinctive HSP system. HSP stood for High Single Pivot, and it marked the first non-Horst Link bike that the brand had designed since 1995 (that would be the FTS-1 for any completionists). It used the same theory as classic Sunn bikes and more recent Commencal Supremes, where a high pivot provides a rearward axle path that lengthens the wheelbase as the suspension compresses. This should make it more stable through the rough stuff. Unlike the Commencal though, where the shock is compressed from below, the current HSP system uses an A.R.T pull-link to tug on a rocker that compresses the shock from above. Norco said that this allowed them to create a more progressive and tunable linkage than other similar designs.
The current Norco Aurum uses a high single pivot that is compressed from above.
It looks like Norco will be sticking with the high pivot design on this new frame, but there are definitely some changes going on with the linkage. Unfortunately the meat of it is obscured thanks to a handily placed leg, but we do think we've spotted something interesting about the way this bike might work. Pinkbike's tech editor and engineer, Dan Roberts, has run some numbers and believes that this bike could be using flex pivots to make the new design work.
 | It's still a high pivot but now the shock is driven by the large link that is concentric to the BB. From what I can see, they need some flex in that rear triangle to make it work. That would also explain why the carbon tube is constant and smooth, and the dropouts bolt on over a small patch to not impede the flex. |
Flex stays are fairly common in XC racing, where the low travel amounts mean that the chain stay and seat stay don't move apart very far, but we can't think of a downhill bike that has ever used them. We also think the aluminum drop outs could be used for some extra adjustability and could allow riders to tune the length of their chainstays, similar to the ones we've seen Greg Minnaar using on his V10 29 this year.
We're still just speculating at this point and reached out to Norco for more information, but at the moment all they said was, "This bike is part of Norco's Research and Development program and is purely an information-gathering exercise at this time. No details to share with you as any information about any bikes in R&D are under embargo." Hopefully we get to see more of this wild looking bike when racing restarts.
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I don't think it's the range but that's up for debate, at least until they release it
@Arierep: It is a cool day today here, only about 90F (32C) outside. I'll be riding about 30 miles (50k) and 3000' (1000m). That's just a Thursday evening ride.
I'm not a fan of pants.
You are welcome
I started wearing pants because the pros wear them. Because, Fanboy/poser. And I have ended up wearing them all the time, unless it's really warm. The main benefit, apart from making you feel like a pro, is when you are finished riding, and take them off with all the mud and dust that elswhise would have ended up inside the house.
I like pants because they keep you and your pads clean and generally do a much better job protecting you on natural trails, specially with overgrown
www.ridenf.com
But I agree and think it's hideous... Black socks or no socks for me.
I'm really allergic to poison oak and it's only gotten worse over the years. It's everywhere where I live and it's possible to get it during the colder months, too.
Pants, long sleeves, and gloves are the only way to be certain that I'm not covered in the stuff for entirety of the year. The pants are expensive, but you can find knock-offs or non-cycling stuff cheaper. getting breathable and sun-protecting long sleeves is easy too if you look through fishing and hiking gear off season.
@happycatbasket: I get that. Some people need/want that protection. For you, it's available.
@themouse77: I'm smart enough to recognize the superior system. Dumb enough to work in a career where we don't use it.
antidotebikes.com/product/darkmatter/?v=7516fd43adaa
If you look closely at the seatstays of the Darkmatter, imagine if the cap for the pivot hardware was black. From a blurry, blown up phone camera it would be easy to miss:
ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb13894900/p5pb13894900.jpg
TL;DR: it could have a pivot that you can't see because potato quality
The pic above is a spitting image of the linkage of the dark matter sitting in my living room. If you also check out propain frame design Antidote launched that same design 1 year prior with the Antidote Lifeline (26 in DH).
There has been a lot of subtle influences that stem from Antidote.
There is no way, such rectangular tubes would be used to flex the structure for such a long distance required by rocker link.
By "Horst Link" I was referring to this chainstay positioned pivot, not to the whole suspension layout. The whole suspension system is very reminiscent of the one you find on the Devinci Wilson, or the one Sunn used on their DH bikes some time ago, as I stated above.
why: if you think of the curve the pivot linking to the chainstays would make if its a single lower link, this would allow for only a few cm motion to the back of the bike --> 200mm travel? nope...
My moneys on a flex design.
Yeah, I get the point made now. It would be a classical swingarm design with two short links driving the shock, which, kinematically, checks all the boxes. It's in the vein of the Alchemy bikes, or, better yet, someone mentioned Corsair Marque below.
The catch is with such long chainstays and seatstays with no bracing between them, the structure is gonna flex like crazy. Why complicate your life with a flexy construction and then complicate it again by using two links which will just wobble around and do mostly nothing, when you can use a single rocker link and be done with it?
Don't think of it as that the flex is needed for this to work. Flex was used intentionally to make it work.
You'd be surprised how flexy structures can be. Take a look at an airplane wing flexure test (where they break it). Even more, aerodynamics of such flexible structures must be analysed (with CFD) in their deformed state to provide accurate results, in their 'designed' shape the aerodynamics is quite different.
Where's that hat?
Cutting edge really, means I can use the pair I have for the climbs, and switch over to my 'NLEG' TM (Norco Leg Extension Gain) for the downhills.
I can only assume this is done via a Zipper like many other great products hitting the market.
I won't say what it is though
Keep in mind they had been working on that aurum since like 2016 or 17.
The Aurum (not HSP, now available in aluminum only) is aging and could (should) be replaced in your line up.
The Aurum HSP is expensive to manufacture and some of its shapes can’t be made in aluminum.
You’ve been convinced by the team and customer/industry feedback that high pivot + idler pulley design out performs the horst link, and you see that people want to buy this design.
You are seeing other brands coming up with trail/enduro bikes with such designs and you are now ready to get onboard.
Enduro bikes are getting closer and closer to dh bikes in terms of geo, strength, weight and performance.
More and more riders who can’t justify and/or afford two bikes are choosing a trail/enduro bike over a dh bike.
So, you come up with a hsp bike which:
- can be done in aluminum or carbon;
- is cheaper to manufacture in carbon than the Aurum HSP (rear trianlge);
- geometry/suspension set up can be adjusted so the bike can be built has a full-on DH (200mm) or big enduro (170-180mm).
- is lighter than the Aurum HSP.
What do you think?
And I too was flabbergasted when I saw that. Carbon front, flex rear in Al.
#engineeredflexgate
What happened to the brand?
Norco “DROPPED” a blinder right here with this!
Big props!! :-)))))))
No flex stay needed for this change.
Also the supposed range proto is made out of aluminium, looks nothing like this one, looks much lighter, but is also a high pivot with an idler. This is a DH bike.
Will there be aluminium versions of the Range too?
or... are you?
Because you only have one link driving the shock instead of two, the distances between pivots change and something has to flex in order for the suspension to cycle through the travel. With only two sides of a big triangle (seat stays and chainstays) the actual flex around the rear axle needs to be relatively small to go through the suspension motion.
This has been applied a lot in XC bikes, where the travels are small and the rotation angles similarly small as well. That and the fact that you get rid of a pivot point lowers the weight significantly. Case in point, multiple Cannondale Scalpel models have had flex stays, the latest Spec Epic has them (coming from _THE_ FSR company), Canyon has had them on the Lux, Scott has it on their Spark models (in aluminium as well!).
Kinematics wise, it's something in between and can't be modelled classically, you need to perform a flexural analysis to see how the brake carrier and rear axle actually move (and rotate) through the travel to actually determine the kinematics. But with the usual place of application (XC bikes), it's not that much of a concern apparently. And you can just strengthen the chainstays and make the seatstays flex the most, call it a day and say it's a singlepivot
Hell, everything flexes, everything is a flex stay!
Of course all dual short link bikes have a solid rear triangle, but it is suspended from two separate links and "floats" in space compared to the front triangle. The two options I was describing are both connected directly to the main frame and rotate around a single defined pivot point. That's their similarity with a difference down the line (driving the shock and all). With a dual short link, kinematics wise, there is no similarity to a swingarm (with or without driving links) or a flex stay.
If it's confusing it just shows that things might not be as simple as throwing around some pivots.
It's sooo fast! I won't be switching but it's kind of annoying lol