Sunday Randoms - Sea Otter 2019

 It's okay, I don't think there is much risk of you seeing anyone else with one...

 @lacuna: I see them a bunch in my riding area actually.

 @lacuna: well that wouldn’t work then. The whole point is that it has to be expensive as hell to make sense.

 not gotta lie, i would love to splurge on one if they had timekeeping as well....

 price is pretty on point with other GPS units.

 Ya I was like cool I'm getting one then I saw the price..wtf?? I could justify $100-150.. but $5fn50 are you fn kidding me?

 @ninjaty: You could get a Garmin watch that does all that for much less and you can use it for other things. But it is a really cool speedo. If it wasn't so much it would be on my long list of bike wants.

 @lacuna: bike radar did a review of it over a year ago..https://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/category/accessories/gadgets/cycle-computers/product/omata-one-review-51776/#disqus_thread

 @H3RESQ: I think this one is a fault of PB, not reverend27....

 Ya I agree is gorgeous, but that’s like 700 Canadian

 but did you factor in the buying like 3 because that thing will snap off every time you take a digger? figure three crashes a year and you're at $1650. That rich enough for ya???

 Gravelicious

 @conoat: no. The whole point is to measure economic dicks, not to measure speed. Nobody knows or cares how many you broke. The important bit is to make it look like it costs 1650$ from the start, in order to confuse your "opponent". You are supposed to be signalling that you have a lot of money to waste, meaning you have much more money for other fancy things. Many can buy an S-Works Enduro or Trek 9.9 Project One. But if you put a 1650$ speedometer on it, 1000$ Powermeter, tube strap from kashmeer - you are ahead of the game.

 Evil laugh!

 What has been seen cannot be unseen.

 The one laughing is because of how heavy rims have become

 @tcmtnbikr: You forget about the doublewides of the past? These are feather weights in comparison.

 I'm still crying after struggling with my crappy MK3's popping holes in my rim tape every bump. Seriously fk those rims.

 Like the comedy and tragedy theater masks!! Came to my mind immediately.

 Value bike of the year

 For $3000 Id buy the shit out of that. Replace the wheelset and go. Looks like a bike that you can adjust to be exactly how you like it. Lets hope it doesnt have shit geometry or something.

 I was gonna say it actually looks really good for 3k. good on haro.

 @chillrider199: Looks a bit steep from the couch

 you get Shimano 12 speed with a Yari? Give me good suspension with a decent drive train and I'd consider it.

 @mustbike: Then again, there's a pretty legit lineup of $3k trailbikes out there these days. Which is good for the sport, I'd say.

 I just saw titi

 @pargolf8: My neighbor rides a Titus, the previous owner removed the 'u' from the logo so now its the 'Tits' bike.

 I spotted this too - 12 speed XT must be coming soon (Shimano run 4 year product cycles and the 11 speed XT M8000 was released April 2015...).

12-speed SLX though... Exciting, and makes sense as Shimano is losing MTB market share to SRAM at an alarming pace, they must be trying to get 12 speed to market ASAP.

 @eddlessride: as I have heard the Shimano XT 12 speed is ready, just waiting to be announced.

 @Stenimir: Yes - XT 12 speed is likely to be announced very soon...

 @eddlessride: Maybe they'll try and release both at the same time? Could make sense.

 @eddlessride:
What about the 10 speed Deore?
How long has that been out now?
I'm thinking from a trickle down perspective.
12 speed down to SLX makes sense from that perspective.
So will Deore and Alivio then see an 11 speed version soon?

 @Tjomball: Hopefully!

 That would be too quick to release for 2020. Especially for this market XTR still has to prove itself in terms of durability and reliability. Also I don't think they should go for a different spline (because of the wide availability and low price of the conventional Shimano spline) which would imply they can't run smaller than 11t.

I'm surprised to read that Shimano is losing to SRAM at an alarming rate. And if so, why would it be because of a lack of 12speed drivetrain? Shimano is still relatively affordable compared to SRAM. Increasing price and making the products more finicky is not going to gain them many fans.

 On their website it says Shimano 1x11 XT with a 11-46 cassette.

 @vinay: SRAM is definitely taking Shimano’s lunch money in the OEM market, especially in the mid-range (GX and NX is on pretty much every 3-5k FS bike).

 @vinay: a large majority of OEM bikes are spacing gx and nx eagle over shimano drivetrains currently.

 @vinay: One of the big reasons shimano is losing to sram that doesn't get much attention is that bike shops arent stocking shimano anymore. They've been screwing over small and large shops for years by selling to big companies like chain reaction and competitive cyclist for much less than shop cost. This has allowed those big companies to sell shimano for much much less than MSRP, while bike shops are unable to match those prices without selling parts for less than they paid.

 @TannerValhouli: Alright, I get that. Must be the reason why I think their stuff is so great value! I've worked (part time, as a student) in a shop that also built custom bikes (though mostly custom geometry race and trekking bikes). And as that made us a "bike manufacturer" we probably got their stuff at OEM pricing, which made us competitive with Shimano stuff. I suppose as CRC has own brands too (Blank, Vitus, Nukeproof etc) they may be enjoying similar discounts. On the other hand in the OEM market, obviously only SRAM offers both suspension and drivetrain (whereas Shimano doesn't offer suspension, Hayes doesn't offer a drivetrain except for the PeteSpeed gearbox patent from BeOne they've been sitting on and Suntour does have a gearbox but nothing seems to be happening). I expect that may be the biggest edge SRAM has in the OEM market. The fewer suppliers a bike manufacturer has to juggle, the easier. I really think Shimano should have bought Marzocchi. Now that would have made things a bit more exciting. Also just so that they would actually be in the position to develop and deliver top end products independent of other suspension manufacturers.

 @eddlessride: if they want their market share back license the micro spline to more then one hub manufacturer ffs.

 @vinay:
Didn't Shimano and FOX cooperate on some joint venture re Di and electronic lockout and dropper actuation?

 @lehott: Shimano's market share in the bike industry is in two segments: road and low-end MTB/recreational bikes. They have those two areas pretty well cornered, though SRAM is making inroads in the gravel/all-road segment thanks to the popularity of 1x drivetrains. The $1000+ MTB segment is pretty heavily dominated by SRAM right now though - anything that it makes sense to spec NX Eagle or higher on tends to get that for the most part. You find relatively few bikes by comparison specced with SLX or XT, and XTR builds are only just starting to reappear again with the availability of M9100 XTR.

 If they released SLX before XT I'd be surprised as that doesnt seem to be Shimanos MO, and while I'm not suggesting Shimano is getting ready to kill XT, but Sram basically did just that. They have X0 and XX at or near the XTR level and skipped X1 for Eagle and went to GX. Skipping XT for SLX would feel the same to me. And Shimano defintely has road and under 1k bikes covered, but nothing in my shop above 2k has Shimano drivetrain. Brakes yes, but no shifty bits.

 @charnek: To be fair, XX and X0 were the only carryovers from their old naming convention - X1 and GX were both introduced when they made the move to 11-speed, and NX didn't come around until a couple years later. Dropping X1 with the move to 12-speed made sense IMO - now they have XX to compete with XTR, X0 to compete with XT, GX to compete with SLX, and NX to compete with Deore. X1 was always kind of the red-headed stepchild of the 11-speed family, especially once NX rolled around.

 @TannerValhouli: and what is wrong with that? honestly, SRAM's version where they price fix, is bullshit. It's decidedly anti-consumer and I cannot support it. I mean, do you not think that Sram sells to OEM at a ridiculous discount over Retail? Why do you think that is? I will tell you. it's to get people on their shit just like Apple giving schools computers. Later on, you will stay even if you're unhappy because it's what you know and also it's cost prohibitive to swap everything just because your shifter crapped out.

Shimano should start selling to OEM and undercutting SRAM, sell to retailers at prices commencerate to their size(CRC is bigger than Bubba's Bikes so they get a better price) and own the aftermarket via affordability.

The days of shops making 200% markup on parts needs to die.

 @conoat: No bike shop on earth makes that kind of margin. Shimano also sells at a huge discount to OEM and makes few attempts to control the price of their products after that. The insane prices that you see for Shimano are due to their nonexistent attempts to enforce MSRP. Shops, though, generally have to at least try to sell for that MSRP in order to stay afloat because they can't/don't buy a thousand XT groupsets at a time and can't accept a piddling dollar profit per group and still eat.

"Shimano should start selling to OEM and undercutting SRAM, sell to retailers at prices commencerate to their size(CRC is bigger than Bubba's Bikes so they get a better price) and own the aftermarket via affordability."

So yeah, Shimano already does this, which is why you'll see a lot of shops forgoing their products.

 @Pynchonite: why do you think it's shimano's job to police what someone resells their product at? They make a thing, and sell a thing. There is no reason they should be trying to or want to, control what that person resells it for. What's next, coming to you and telling you what you have to sell your XTR derailleur for on PinkBike?


Also, yeah. for years that was the markup on parts. It's how shops could stay alive while also being horrible at customer service. Snarky techs that talk down to people, ridiculous prices, slow turn around, etc.

let's just say it; it's not Shimano's or sram's fault shops are failing. It's terrible customer service and the fact that DTC brands are eating their lunch.

 @conoat: The problem with Shimano pricing was twofold.
1. They dictated an MSRP and forced US retailers to adhere to MSRP at risk of losing their dealer agreements.

2. They sold large quantities of components to online and offshore retailers who were exempted from that requirement - either because of location (Europe doesn't allow forced MSRP pricing) or other deals (not sure why US-based online retailers like Jenson were allowed to lower their prices, but I suspect it had to do with volume of product).

This created an inherently unfair market, where US storefronts were not allowed to compete, even if they wanted to. A system where anyone could price Shimano's products however they wanted would have also been a fair solution, but that devalues the product, which is bad for Shimano, so they elected to go with the solution currently in place.

Having worked at a shop a little more recently, I can tell you that the markup on parts is absolutely not 200%. It may have been in the early 90s before the rise of mail-order parts companies, but that's not the case now. Pricing on Shimano parts from CRC was within a couple dollars of the shop's pricing direct from Shimano. For example, dealer cost on an XT derailleur is around $60, MSRP is $100 - in other words, a 67% markup.

I agree that many shops were sorely lacking in the customer service department, and that has contributed to their decline, but that's not the whole story.

 @lehott: shimano dominates the road and urban markets. They also have the lower end MTB market (Alivio, non series Deore). But they’re being crushed in the MTB mid to high-end due to a lack of 12 speed (customer feedback to product managers is the driver). Shimano also is big in the fishing market.

 Should be called RipOff.

 I would pay extra to NOT have to go to a gym.

 Except Riprow simulates what you are doing on the bike so it’s a work out time much better spent than spinning miles while watching a stupid movie. It doesn’t replace a barbell but it’s the best cardio contraption one can have. If I had a house, and a home gym in it, I’d defo get a rip row straight after getting a squat rack and a nice set from Eleiko.

 @STMCO: Live where you play and you'll never need a gym or workout machines.

 @WAKIdesigns: it puts a lot of motions together in a nicely packaged machine. However I think most of those could be duplicated more simply with a Bosu ball and small barbell or curl bar set. The standing aspect is great tho, getting the hips involved.

 The biggest problem with the riprow is that after you use it twice you won't be able to fit it under your bed with the rowing machine you're also never going to use again.

 I'm not sure what the point is here... If this were some other piece of cardio equipment, such as a treadmill, stationary bike or rowing machine, it would all cost more than your gym membership. Hell, even a good Olympic weight set or kettlebell set is going to cost about the same as your gym membership. Good equipment is expensive. Join a gym if it makes more sense to you, but the cost of this Riprow isn't out of line.

 @TheR: nope, it’s not out of line at all. Good stuff is expensive and yes sadly ends up as a clothes hanger or under the bed. Dedicated equipment like treads can really just do a single thing which is great for runners but so is getting a jacket and running outdoors.
For individuals tho, “the more you know the less you need”.
It would be great if a group or team could get the product and use it in drills, thus sharing the expense.

 Just go out in the woods and lift rocks and sticks!

 @wibblywobbly: yawn.

 Not something to lose sleep over

 That one's nothing new. It's a transmission from a Fazua Evation system. Similar to e-bike systems from Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, etc. Except that the removable battery also has the motor attached to it, rather than permanently bolted into the frame. fazua.com/en/evation/bikes They're working with a dozen brands already, and you wouldn't mistake any of them for 'analog' bikes up close. They're getting closer, though.

 But.... Is that....? It can't be...? ISIS?!

 @biggerted: yes the fear is isis will use their ebikes to get to their down country training camps.

 @wibblywobbly: C+ trolling at best.

 Oh yes. An upgraded geometry fully rigid 29er klein. Attitude 29er with Nightstorm paintjob and internal dropper routing, with enough space for a 125-150 mm dropper. And ofcourse MC reworked as well. Black E13 11 speed block with black KMC chain. XTR Race Brakeset. Hope wheelset. XTR 11 speed deraillur and shifter. And a reworking of the old Deathgrips would be noice, real noice. For me personally this would be as close to perfection as I could come for a light trailbike for an old fart with a touch of nostalgia. Still remember my old Adroit and Attitudes.

 @Tjomball: I always wanted a Top Gun or Rascal

 @jeremiahwas:
I don't remember the Top Gun.
But I do remember the Rascal.
That was a nice little ride.
But given a choice I'd rather have my old Attitude. Because that pink and purple little trailrocket was s*x on wheels. My god that bike wanted to go fast.

 @Tjomball: The Top Gun preceded the Rascal but was renamed because of issues with the movie. It was red, white and blue. When I was a kid back in 1990 or so, Cambria Bicycle, when it was just a small shop, let me ride it around town for a bit. ‘King of the world’ moment for sure.

 @jeremiahwas:
Did Tinker ride one?
Just googled it. Looked very familiar.

 @Tjomball: www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/d/2633-2/Klein1992.pdf

 @jeremiahwas: catalog Pr0n.
Thanks.

 This 2010 seat post motor issue looks like it will never be dropped.

 Yeah, actually the photo is of the Fazua BB Gearbox...the motor is in the downtube battery pack and transfers power to that funky tri-lobe looking thing on the left.

 No, and it's not going to be for some time.

The prototype XTR hubs had CNC small parts (Sylence bits etc), but that was too time/cost intensive and when they came to production they couldn't make it work.

 @nouseforaname: you can, however get DT swiss star ratchet freehubs that use the new shimano freehub standard

 @xeren: Yeah, and probably other manuf will make hubs with the spline standard. But they won't be Sylence(tm) hubs. They'll be hubs with microspline or whatever it's called.

The Sylence-y bit was the problem.

 @nouseforaname: yep, they still use the star ratchet instead of sylence. fine by me, i'm a fan of the star ratchet

 Bafo yes you use a 160-203 mount on forks with a 180 mount as stock.

 Some frames have 180mm PM tabs (7" PM) instead of 160mm PM tabs so using a 203mm adapter for a 160mm fork or frame on one of these, you can fit the 223mm disc. My forks have 8" PM tabs so I just need to wait for their 246mm rotors.

 @vinay: no if you have a 8” mount you just use a 160-180 mount that’ll give you the 20mm needed to make a 223.

 Good way too not have a warranty for all new forks you may buy?

 @aljoburr: Yeah, my forks are certified until 210mm rotors so 223 nor 246mm would be such a good idea. If I really need that much more power, I'd better get more powerful brakes instead of just bigger rotors.


@mikelee: Yes you're correct. If I would want to go up to 223mm the +20mm adaptor would be sufficient. Not what I was talking about (which was about going up to 246mm), but you're correct.

 @mikelee: thanks for the explanation!

 @aljoburr: and how would your fork company prove that you had a bigger disc on there exactly? Also I’ve ran the galfar 223 rotor on my lyrics for over a year now with no issues.

 @mikelee: You send back your fork with brake mount snapped off!

 @aljoburr: When braking when riding forwards, the PM tabs are loaded in compression and some shear. They won't snap.

 @aljoburr: ah someone who actually understands where the force goes under braking. The is no way you can rip off post mounts on the fork from braking.

 @mikelee: Hope recently released this very clever rear brake mount everyone is raving about. If you want to run a bigger rotor, just add some spacers and longer bolts. So both these would be loaded under shear, one under compression and the other under tension. That could rip apart. Luckily they only use it in the rear, not in the front. So we're seeing different brake mounts again front and rear. Hurray...

 @mikelee: I have seen one or 2 but more likely that bolts were loose or cross threaded & what about if you get a stick stuck in your spokes?

 @aljoburr: then your spokes will snap!! I’ve ran a 223mm rotor on my lyric with hope v4 brakes for a year and no issues at all. The force from a brake compresses into the top part of the mount! It would have to snap the fork leg in half to put enough stress on the lower bolt!

 once seen...

 How else would he be able to ride that tricycle?

 Genius

 yeah, i get why shimano is chasing sram at the drivetrain speed game, but i would be much happier if shimano just came out with an XT 11 speed 10-51 cassette and matching derailleurs for their new freehubs. there would be no reason to go sram unluss you were willing to spend 4 times as much for a bit less weight, and that's not most people

 Has it got one of these?
www.suregripracks.com/uncategorized/who-said-you-cant-have-a-gun-rack-on-your-bike

 That front fender is leaky.

 That's a fair bit cheaper than they used to be lol.

You are way off here man and are a bit ignorant to that bike if that's what you think.

For starters, if you get the kid on a proper sized bike, you'll get 2 seasons out of it. My kid is in the 99th size percentile and got two seasons out of his Spawn 20". Little brother is coming so that'll prob be 3 seasons for him (he's smaller) and 5 seasons total then we'll sell it for 60% of the cost. Good bikes have great resell for kids.

Now the bike you are talking about converts from 16" FS to a 20" FS. So approx 4 seasons of riding out of a 2400$ bike. Its only for the uber shredders at that age, but their are plenty of them these days. u10 DH racing is also STACKED with talent that flies, both boys and girls sending it.

Why is a nice bike important? Because some kids shred hard and go from zero to hero in mere months. My kid went from jumping small ramps in the driveway on his 16" beater bike to clearing 10ft table jump lines in about a season on his 20" Spawn. So while that was only one season, a LOT of development and stoke and downhill good times were had. Best "Dad Moments" of my life. Most of it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't invested into a very capable bike so the kid could ride legit trails going down. Mom shuttles are the best. Now you know. BTW, PB buy/sell is full of trash mostly. Sad that its so empty of quality bikes.

 Bikes and bike parts have terrible resale values no matter what the insane people on Buy/Sell claim. There is one exception to that: high end kids bikes. Dual suspension kids bikes are retaining value really well.

 Yeah, it went out of style on mountainbikes because the cartridge bearings used weren't strong enough (axle diameter increased but bearings were still inside the bottom bracket. It is still common on Pinion gearboxes, some mid-motor e-bikes and unicycles as the problem isn't there for these. In fact I'm using the Howitzer bb, not sure if that's exactly the same ISIS spline.

 @vinay: I've had a Howitzer on 2 frames, it wasn't even perfectly round, neither were the BBs on the frames. Pretty much bulletproof. The spline on the Giga Pipe and Howitzer are the same, just bearing placement is different. If I may add, never really had a problem with either Giga Pipe or Howitzer, those were the days when Sram were actually good.

 Funny how USA maybe CIA called their mercenary army too disable Europe & middle east after a bottom bracket?

 Scott Genius Trail/ XC bike?

 *in the picture

 Yeah EC says he will be shaving it off soon.

 He probably means that the North American market only gets framesets, rather than complete bikes.

 @speedfreek: What he said...