Tech Tuesday - Why Brake Positioning Is More Important Than You Think

Nov 14, 2023
by Pinkbike Originals  

How big of a difference can brake lever angle make on how your bike rides?

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151 Comments
  • 209 1
 I have mine in a position where I’m able to use them, have done for years
  • 71 81
flag LucaP (Nov 14, 2023 at 11:34) (Below Threshold)
 Pfft. You're obviously just a bumbler.
  • 31 2
 @LucaP: is this gonna be the new hilarious comment that people put under every post?
  • 17 28
flag bman33 (Nov 14, 2023 at 13:11) (Below Threshold)
 @brapaholics: "Bumbler got robbed while riding a Session with Cable Tourism" I think we need to sell that on a t-shirt. lol
  • 14 0
 I have one positioned up and one positioned down, that way I have choices... choices are good
  • 3 4
 @squiffybiker: That’s exactly what my MTB-sugar-mama says about me.
  • 5 1
 This is basically what I do. I measured my lever angle with my phone and it came out to around 35 degrees. If I run them too high...it forces my palm to droop off the back of the grip.
  • 17 0
 I put mine where they feel comfortable and I brake with my middle fingers to let anyone who questions how I do things with my bike what I think about their opinions…..
  • 2 5
 @brapaholics: If it looks like a session, the rider definitely bumbles.
  • 2 0
 @Bikethrasher: interesting, almost nobody do that. I use middle fingers for braking as well and feel it is better way, never got an arm pump.
  • 1 0
 @brapaholics:
  • 3 0
 @stpan: @Bikethrasher: middle and next smallest for me, I think comes from being an old bmxer and 2 finger brakes. Hold grips with thumb n forefinger, no arm pump even on alpine descents.
  • 1 0
 bloody legend...
  • 78 2
 Yoann Barelli already provided strong arguments on brake levers position. It is even more important the older you get as you develop pendulous testicles
  • 33 0
 Yep, and now we have a generation of riders who learn more from Youtube than riding who run flat levers on flat trails.
  • 15 0
 Gotta properly tension the balls cable.
  • 36 0
 Testicle height is temperature dependent. It doesn't necessarily come with age. It progresses along with the greenhouse effect. Global warming is measured in centimeters.
  • 39 1
 Yoann has so many great takes - and his contribution to this conversation has been probably the single most important.
  • 1 3
 Always tilt your brake levers up
  • 3 0
 @GTscoob: Now apparently we have an entire generation of bikers with three balls. What are they putting in the water!?
  • 7 0
 @st-lupo: Maple Syrup. Yoann's lever position was normal before moving to Canada.
  • 3 0
 @vinay: At Hamsterley Forest (Danny Harts bike park) there is a corner with a drop into another tight switchback, and every time i do it I smack the area between my member and balls on the back of the saddle. The fact age has let them dangle is the only reason I can get away with it.
  • 3 0
 @Tristanssid: wait....whats between the member and the balls? You got an extra front gooch?
  • 42 0
 I noticed this a lot early on when I started riding.

Here is my TLDR:

When the levers are too steep (pointed too far down), I had thumb pain, because on the grades I was riding I was effectively holding on with only my thumbs.

When the levers are too flat/pointed up, my wrist flexibility is the limit for how far forward over the bike you can get, which can be a detriment

When they are just right, on the steeps I'm bracing with my palms (not thumbs, no elbow rotation like the video showed), but I can still get over the front easily.

Took a minute to figure out, but was worth playing around with it.
  • 4 0
 Totally agree. Once I found my favorite angle, I even started playing with running them a bit more inboard (toward the stem) in super small increments until I found a really happy spot that works for anywhere I might ride. I do run relatively narrow bars though (750mm), so I don’t know how much that brake position would be practical for someone my size that runs wider bars.
  • 6 1
 This topic has always been seriously underrated, and I think it is very important for people who want to progress in the sport to think about.
I actually tune the angle of the levers for the bike and terrain I use it for. Dirtjumper? Levers pretty far down. Enduro bike? Almost flat. XC? Depends on the steepness of the downhills
  • 1 0
 @two-one: totally. My levers are quite different between bikes. I also makes tiny little marks on my (alloy) bar with a boxcutter to record the roll and position of my levers once I find a good spot.
  • 34 1
 I have self adjusting lever angles. They run off sram batteries and I have hacked flight attendant to continuously adjust them based on speed, angle of the terrain, angle of bike in x and y axis and AI corrected based on the expression on my face. Manual override on the 3rd Sram controller on my bike that get pressed when I contract my rectum.
  • 4 0
 This would be my first asx purchase
  • 19 0
 Don't know what all the fuss is about they only slow you down anyway. Gas to flat all day.
  • 14 2
 Another hot tip is to use the level app on your phone to make sure both levers are at the same angle.
  • 4 0
 And then when you crash, and your levers get all jacked up - you can easily set it back to your baseline.
  • 3 0
 100% this. I know the level should be and how far from the grip the clamp should be. Makes it way easier to fix after a crash.
  • 15 18
 LOL you guys and your $*#)ing phones....
  • 5 1
 Do both levers need to be at the same angle?
  • 18 4
 I think this is a really great tip but is really dependent on a level of symmetry and alignment that not everyone has. Personally, I think I want my bike to fit my body and not a phone-app and have mine slightly different to one-another. Looking back, I should have mentioned this in the video - ha.
  • 17 2
 @henryquinney: My OCD won't allow asymmetrical brake lever setup, ergonomics and comfort be damned.
  • 1 0
 @henryquinney: I've had a multitude of injuries in either hand now, so my levers are never setup the same. You can tell just by looking at them, even.
  • 2 0
 @MTBrent: Makes me wonder about motorcyclists with OCD. Do they need their clutch lever to be setup exactly the same as their front brake lever or do they just need to align brake pedal and lever? Similarly with dirt jumpers. Would they install a front brake just for the sake of symmetry?
  • 4 0
 @vinay: most moto guys do, but I've seen a handful of faster guys that don't.....when it comes to hand levers a clutch is obviously used very differently than a front brake, different circumstances and body position. I think a lower clutch lever vs front brake has merits in that you'll use a clutch uphill where you typically wouldn't with a front brake. With that said, most guys cover the front brake and clutch at all times so you don't want a huge discrepancy or you'd be riding unbalanced.
  • 4 0
 You don't need to measure it with a level or a phone. You can eyeball it as long as you position one eye along the handlebar's centreline.
  • 9 1
 @boozed: I agree. If you can’t eyeball your levers you need to question fundamental life skills
  • 6 0
 @emptybe-er: what if you don’t have eyes?
  • 2 0
 Or just mark your bars! Either a little scratch on the clamp where it lines up, tape, or nail polish.
  • 1 1
 @emptybe-er: I even wonder if their vision is trail worthy. I mean if they can't eyeball their lever position how can they know which rock or root is higher than another and where they should put their front tire?
  • 1 0
 17.5 -19 angle perfect setup...
  • 4 0
 @robotdave:
Silver sharpie works great for this kind of stuff and wipes off with isopropyl when you are done with it or need to make a new mark.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: Experts would say yes, they do. I like my right just a smidge lower. OCD and 49 years heavily spent on two wheelers.
  • 2 0
 @k-n-i-x-o-n: nice, gotta add that to the toolbox!
  • 2 0
 @blissindex: Piece of cake. Echo location, like a bat, only with tongue clicks.
  • 12 1
 Now that the PB team finally figured out how to record Henry's voice properly, I find his dulcet tones as soothing as Bob Ross painting happy little trees.
  • 3 0
 What lube are you using?
  • 1 0
 @owl-X: I'm a Pedro's Chainj guy, but I think I might not be understanding your question...
  • 3 0
 @VtVolk: oh no, you understand. You understand.

SRAM Butter over here. Put the headphones on, turn the lights down, let ol Henry take over…
  • 12 0
 I position my brakes on my handlebar and I think this is a good place on the bike to put them.
  • 10 2
 Another forgotten aspect is which part of your finger you use for braking. Lots of people use their fingertips, but in my experience this causes massive amounts of armpump. If your levers allow it, and you have to ride long downhills, i would recommend curling at least 2 'phalanges' around the lever, instead of just one. This would require setting your levers pretty close to the bar, and getting used to the feeling, but you will get so much more brake modulation through the finer motor control of those muscles.
  • 1 0
 Whoa. Didn’t expect that!
  • 4 0
 This. Not only it increases your brake finger's mechanical advantage, therefore saving you lots of arm pump, but having that finger more wrapped around the lever helps the middle finger grip stronger with less effort as well. It may be a big adjustment for some people though, and requires brakes that reliably work closer to the bar and I feel like with some brakes that's impossible. Won't name any brands because this is the internet haha.
  • 6 1
 @MrDuck: I think most people are gonna have issues with the lever hitting knuckles, I do grabbing the last knuckle so have to run my levers far out
  • 9 0
 @owl-X: (suspect they just wanted to write phalanges in a post)
  • 1 1
 @emptybe-er: Don't you hold the lever at the very end? Again I know it wouldn't work with every lever shape.
  • 2 0
 I purposefully run my bars 5mm too long on either side. this way, I have the metal lock on sticking out and when I clip a tree, 9/10 I don't break my pinkie.
  • 2 1
 If you can't use your breaks with the last phalanx it's likely you have the wrong / bad setup breaks for your riding style.
Most likely you also don't have a neutral wrist-underarm in your "attack" position.

At least I don't have such issues with my 4 piston XT/XTR and MT5/MT7 i've used the last couple of years.
That said I didn't like some of maguras levers.
  • 2 0
 I only disagree with you on this because of the mechanical advantages of running your levers further out (leverage). Where I live, I see plenty of bikes with the levers too far in to get proper power.

Plenty of people with high end brakes are not getting the braking power they should, see this a lot with bikes that come through the shop I work at. I'd say lining it up with the last hinge of the finger is the best trade off. But at the end of the day I guess it's all preference, ride what you like.
  • 1 0
 @chri: I'd agree if you **can't** use your last phalanx, something may be wrong.
Personally I simply choose not to and don't see any advantage in using the last one for reasons I mentioned above. Since I've eliminated most arm issues, can ride daily and do big laps in Whistler without any arm pump, I don't think I'd call it wrong.
  • 1 0
 Take a crescent wrench and hook that end part out a little more, too.
  • 7 0
 I found that angling them more downward helped with hand numbness I had been experiencing. Generally, the more flat the terrain the more of an angle down and the more steep the terrain you ride the more they feel better at a flatter angle. Just my experience, your milage may vary.
  • 7 0
 So fair - I think too flat and it can do weird things to your wrists depending on front-end height relative to your body. It can feel like it closes the wrist on bikes with low fronts sometimes. Like you said though, it's very personal.
  • 1 0
 @henryquinney: Dude you must come from Motorbikes at some point..
Not only is your set up identical to mine, your path to it and rational is is parallel to my experience!
I think of myself as a Moto rider square peg that will never fit in that round hole of Mtn biking, but it’s what I do now, and I gotta make it work.
And BTW, I’d run a 160mm rear disc and single piston if heat wasn’t a factor. Seems like rear brake modulation is no longer a concern. I beg to differ..
  • 5 0
 1) If the top of your forearm is burning, tilt them up. If the bottom of your forearm is burning, tilt them down. Your hands should never be flat with your forearm, tilt them up a bit so that your grips are in line with your forearm.
2) Going down steep terrain is when you need them the most. Try to position the lever between 2nd and 3rd knuckle on your index finger; because if you try to reach your brake using just the tip of your finger, you will have to tilt over the front of the bike just to reach your lever (if you can reach it at all) going downhill.
3) If you cant get your levers far enough in for one finger braking without hitting your shifter/dropper, just swap places with them.
4) Running your lever reach in more towards the grips reduces hand/arm pump. I personally run mine to lock up right before they hit the grip.
  • 3 0
 would be interesting to see correlation between HTA/reach and a rider's lever angle preference...I know on my old 90's Specialized HT, my levers were almost perpendicular to the ground (at least they felt that way)...short reach and steep HTA.
  • 3 0
 Henry made a good point about hand position on the grip. I've seen people put their hands far in on the grip. That is probably where their hands naturally move towards. They have a 780 bar...but a 740 hand position. I use a 760 bar and have my hands where my pinky is at the edge of the grip. I avoid grips with large lockrings on the ends. That alone can reduce the bar width by 10 to 20mm.
  • 8 1
 lever? I just met her
  • 1 0
 @henryquinney:I think next review shall be how high should be your seat post and what is the optimal position for power delivery, or long rides? There is the unwritten rule "you hell shall be just touching the pedal when you are on the saddle" but is this the real case ?Thanks!
  • 11 0
 Hey there - honestly, I'm not sure I'm qualified enough to say. I believe that a lot of saddle height should be lower than people think for greater hip stability, but would be cautious to present myself as an authority on it. I think that, for me, the position you reference with your heel is actually a little too high, but I know that's what some great road coaches suggest. I think that the difference in seat tube angle on the road to MTB could account for that. My rule is basically as high as I can without introducing any instability across the hips, and it serves me quite well.
  • 3 0
 @henryquinney: thanks for responding to the off the subject question . A kid of a friend of mine races and he recommended me to get my saddle ~2" down from what i used to ride . I noticed that i have started to load different muscle groups but was able to push more power, pedal better though the turns and totally agree about the stability in the turns I have gained nimbleness . Will try your advice.
Cheers!
  • 1 0
 @henryquinney: as a couch potato I find that as I warm up in the season my body gets more loose and flexible and I can raise my seat because my legs can flex without having to rock my hips as my hip flexors release and get healthier. So my max seat height changes as the season progresses.
  • 2 0
 @Bobanek @henryquinney : I did similar tests actually on a road bike and the thing that complicate it a bit more is you would ideally change the set back of your saddle at the same time as your move it up or down. The lower it is the further you would be from the pedal in an horizontal axis and vice-versa + it impacts your weight distribution and possibly your handlebar desired reach/stack.

Also riding flat vs clipless can change a whole lot your foot position and thus your saddle position.
  • 1 0
 @s100: yep, I think a lot of bike fitters will echo what you put here. Seat height is dynamic based on current flexibility and athletic ability and will change over time.
  • 1 0
 One thing I haven't heard anyone discuss is brake lever reach. Recently I bought a bike that was used for XC racing and the guy had set the levers so far in that if you pulled them to the bar, you could not skid or lock up the tires. I think that's absolutely mad and don't understand how you could ride like that. I also know people that keep the lever so far out that you could almost miss the lever if you're not careful and you wouldn't be able to slow down at all! Madness!
  • 2 1
 Probably someone who is not very fast downhill. People who drag their brakes all the time in the downhills rarely need a lot of actual power.
  • 1 0
 This is super personal I think, and IRL depends on things like how much you use a keyboard, what particular other exercise your arms do or have done over your life, how you personal genetics have influenced the relative lengths of the various tendons in your arms and hands, etc etc.

So at the obvious risk of falling into the trap of trying to prescribe a method for everyone, I have tried this a few times:

Totally off the bike make an bar gripping fist. Move your braking finger(s) through the range of motion of the braking action. Move your wrist forward and back and keep making that brake pumping motion. Figure out the angle of your hand where it is easiest of all. Then go to your bike and set the levers at the corresponding angle to that easy angle for you. This is at least a good starting point for subtle changes depending on your setup and geometry. Your can tweak it from there to help overcome any other issues you might have with stack height, weighting the front wheel or whatever your particular bike might need.
  • 1 0
 One might also put it the other way round:

Know your riding preferences and get to know how you should/want to position your self on the bike (when going fast/down).
Then adjust the lever to get a neutral wrist-underarm position.

As always there are exceptions but the lever adjustment is the easy part.
Getting to know the right position on the right bike (geometry) is the hard part and should come first.
  • 1 0
 Am I the only one who has totally different position on the trail / more downhill focused bike and my touring / XC marathon bike? My trail bike has levers in a much flatter position because I simply spend more time pointing down in steep stuff so they need to match the difference in arms position. Evidently when riding said trail bike in the flat the levers position is definitely not ideal so it is a matter of making compromises. [1]

Or am I the only one that enjoy both kind of riding.

[1] I immediately see some product manager getting weird new ideas of a device that allow to switch angle depending on riding conditions Big Grin
  • 1 0
 I think it’s that second one…

This discussion is very close to roadie chat, I think it may be best not to talk about it publicly.
  • 1 0
 Maybe it was mentioned but at the most basic level, you want the brake to match your hand position on your grip in which only your index finder is pulling comfortably on the brake lever. You don’t want the brake too close the the grip that when you attempt this, the lever pinches your middle finger. Conversely, you don’t want it so far from your grip that you have to strain to the side to reach it and pull your hand away from its desired position on the handlebar grip
  • 1 0
 I always run the brake and shifting levers in-line with my arms when in a seated riding position. I run 800 and 810mm bars on my bikes. So far this has been the best setup for my riding needs. I have super short legs so my saddle height is about M-L but my reach is XL because I have a swimmer's frame.
  • 4 4
 One thing I've noticed is that the angle at which you set your levers is also tied to how you like to set your reach. If your levers come real close to the grip when pulled you can get away with a lower angle, and conversely if you like your levers far out from the grip angle should be set higher.
  • 1 0
 I find that the steeper and faster the terrain I run my levers flatter. It allows me to get further back on the bike. When trail riding, my levers are angled down a little more.
  • 1 0
 Here's a quick test.... Once you get your levers in the position where you can absorb a full fork compression and go sideways with the bike after, (instead of otb) you have found the correct lever position.
  • 3 0
 Would be nice to see a poll on brake lever angle.
  • 6 0
 The alternatives would be: To high, to low and just right Wink
  • 6 0
 Nooooo.......Pick an angle. Be a dick. It's tradition.
  • 1 0
 @watchmen: thats it. It is so easy
  • 1 0
 @Unbegabt: If you want to save time you can just skip the first part.
  • 4 1
 cut your brake lines, less brakes = more speed
  • 5 0
 Lol..ditch them coward levers.
  • 1 0
 That's what those stem cabling wants you to believe!
  • 3 0
 Mine are angled down. They are setup for a standing position.
  • 3 0
 Very confused here . Is a leaver the same thing as a lever ?
  • 3 0
 You have literally no idea what I think...
  • 3 0
 This was useful and clear. Did they medicate Henry?
  • 1 0
 Lever positions and reach doesn't bother me that much. The silly stroke length (aka modulation) on SRAM brakes gives me all kinds of illnesses, including mental ones.
  • 1 0
 Be careful with those power outlets on the wall, they may be installed in a dangerous position no matter what the internet says.
  • 5 4
 pretty sure if your levers arent sticking straight out, you're doing it wrong...
  • 15 0
 Is this the secret account of @yoannbarelli?
  • 1 0
 @judge-shredd:
  • 2 1
 amen! #MOTO
  • 3 0
 Balls >= 3
  • 1 0
 @eh-steve: $balls % 2 == 0, actually.
  • 1 0
 @MrDuck: Well for Yoanne $bqlls % 2 == 1
  • 1 0
 @eh-steve: Thanks for the correction. Should have unit tested in an isolated yontainer. I'll see myself out.
  • 2 0
 Straight down for gate starts obvs!
  • 2 1
 I personally a fan of the no brake deathgrip route. They only slow you down anyway
  • 3 3
 Flat levers win medals? I’m firmly rooted in camp Yohann. Works for me and is dead simple to get back into position after riding thru the rhubarb.
  • 3 0
 Unfortunately they don’t…they are only needed for the super steep as otherwise you’re not going to be able to weight the front properly.
  • 4 4
 Most peoples levers are way too low. They may feel good when on flat ground. Raise em up!! Then they'll be on the right position when you need them most......in the steeps
  • 1 0
 Correct
  • 1 0
 Wasn’t it Mike Kluge who said “if it gets too fast, I let go of the brakes.”
  • 1 0
 The "Barelli dictum" is the final word on the matter: the only remaining question being the following: 1 ball, 2, or 3?
  • 1 0
 adjust your levers to the angle and position that is the most comfy. This isn't rocket science.
  • 1 0
 We obviously need another button on our cockpit that adjusts the brake angle as the terrain changes.
  • 2 2
 I bet the #1 reason for MTBers getting "arm pump" is running their levers too low.
  • 1 1
 I did not see any evidence that it matters. Where is the roll down test? The impossible climb? The XC lap?
  • 1 0
 If I take mine off because I'm not a coward where do I position them?
  • 1 0
 i run everything from vertically down on my dj to 35ish on my dh bike
  • 1 0
 Pick a brake lever angle, be a dick about it.
  • 1 0
 I found myself thinking about this on my ride today
  • 1 0
 You’re right; this video is boring AF.
  • 1 0
 mine is 17.5 angle...
  • 3 3
 I’m part of the 3 ball gang, so my levers are flat
  • 1 2
 I position my lever to have a long stroke and a steep angle. My wife likes the same.
  • 1 1
 Great tips to help me bumble down trails.
  • 1 0
 A video?!?
  • 3 6
 Biggest issue is shimano brakes bracing against the bar, meaning you can’t slide them over enough without hitting the grips
  • 3 0
 How long are your grips?! I hold my bar pretty close to the end of the grips, hands fit size small and I have about 17mm between the brace and my oneup grip. Imagine the gap would only increase with a bigger hand.
  • 4 1
 You should only be using 1 finger
  • 2 0
 @MrDuck: I like the edge of my hand off the grip a little. I have to cut my grips down to get the lever far enough over to grab the lever where I want it.
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