The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 153 - Headset Cable Routing is... Good?

 so installation of the product is going to cost more than the product?

 @jaydawg69: seems fair to me. It's an hourly rate. Brake and cable swap on an all external bike,? Small bill. 3 hour job? Big bill.


It's on the customer for choosing which bike to buy. That's on them. All shops should move to an hourly rate for these things.

 @j-t-g: I don't have a problem with the shop doing the work as long as the customer is aware beforehand or when the shop sold them the bike. I like shops that have a fixed rate for a job like cars. Nothing worse than surprises on the bill.

 @jaydawg69: Some jobs lend themselves to having a fixed rate, but working on integrated nonsense usually doesn't. Sooooo much variability.

 @captaintyingknots: I get that but I'm not gonna pay $500 to change a drivetrain or brakes. I hope the shop explains this beforehand.

 @j-t-g: but is the salesman going to tell you that downside when he's pushing the 'sleek looks'? Is he going to say 'it looks great but will either cost you an arm and a leg or your sanity if it needs messing with'? No, of course not, and that's the problem.

 @inked-up-metalhead: bingo

 Do you tell the customers about that already when selling the integrated bike?

 @jaydawg69: I feel ya, it could be a big bill, but the shop can't be doing work for free. Working on excessively complicated systems at a flat rate means they'd be discounting their labor significantly. The real solution is for the bike companies to keep this nonsense contained to road race bikes (where it actually does improve aero). MTB doesn't need more integration!

 This sounds like a long and exiting sales pitch. Cable guiding on this bike is this much more expensive than on the other bike, unless you get AXS which by itself is this much more expensive. This fork you can service yourself or we'll do it for you, the other one we're going to send off and will cost you this much. Your rims are going to last this much longer if you run these inserts but tire swaps will be this much more expensive. This one has more expensive pivot bearings etc... People just need to know service takes effort. If you don't want to put in the effort, it is going to cost money. If you want to know up front, inform yourself. You can ask to be spoonfed but you have to ask for the spoonfeeding yourself.

 @jaydawg69: well servicing almost does already, so why not?

 i love those articles

 I forgot emoji, hope that most people will still notice I was kidding You can put your pitchforks back to the sheds.

 I routed my pitchfork through my headset, it's stuck

 @DizzyNinja: what kind of suspension fork is that?

 @lehott: It's rigid

 Came here to say just that.

 Pitchforks are great if you run two front wheels. Two front brakes too? Oh no...

 I agree, headset routing looks bad to me, and it's not because I'm not used to it. I think it's a vocal minority that likes it and it will just be a passing fad. And I'm a person that has been into multiple cycling disciples over many years including vintage and historic bikes.

 Agree. Seems like HQ et al lost the plot on this one. I'm thinking about all the incredible stems and bars, all those style pieces, the epicenter of rider bike input... keep the cables away from this for the aesthetic reasons, if nothing else. People pay top dollar for stems for a reason, they look awesome, they serve a purpose, yes, but they look a certain way that speaks for the bike and the intention of the rider. Again, cables routed in this area detract from that style piece... stem/bar/ steerer interface should stand on its own, aesthetically

 This and internal tunneled cables through the frame are the only acceptable solutions for internal cabling. Every other solution plain sucks and headset routing takes the cake for being the worst idea from both a practical and esthetics point of view.

 I bet that was a demand thing. Reviewers kept mentioning internal routing, customers started asking for it and so eventually they met the demand.

 Other people still annoy me more, but it’s nice to have a long list of things to be angry about.

 Did you listen to the podcast before commenting or nah?

 @mikelevy: hell no, informed comments are dumb.

 @mikelevy: As kindly as I can say this, don't make clickbait titles and you won't get clickbait replies.

Cheers lad.

 @sherbet: “Why are we using it if it's more complicated, more challenging to work on, and probably less reliable?”

 @mikelevy: because dentists buy bikes based on looks … and dentists spend more $$$

I just got a Zerode Taniwha Trail (hey Levy, good review!) and I was pleased to see that the rear brake line was run externally.

Keep up the good work, live all the internal line routing, let’s keep those shops busy!

 @mikelevy: For what it's worth, I'm so far not against headset routing. I will have to check your podcast on this one, but we've had the new Scotts in stock; they're just not that bad to deal with, and they sell like hotcakes.

People want gorgeous bikes, this fits what most people deem as hot. 99% of our customers never take a wrench to their bike, sadly even when cranks are loose on trail. Headset routing is not an issue for most riders out there.

So if it's a non issue to most, it drives sales, and it makes people believe they own the ferrari of the bike world, what's the issue? There's other bikes out there with external cables that people are able to buy. Get one of those if those are your priority. It's very interesting to me that something I see as completely not a problem is blown up this massively, and I'M LITERALLY THE DUDE WORKING ON IT.

Sorry, rant over. Have a good one dude.

 @sherbet: The issue is that it’s a pain in the ass and turns one nice arc of cable into 3 sharp ones. Cables will need to be swapped more often and takes longer. They might be selling like hotcakes but it’s a slippery slope. I’m sure they’d sell just as well with cables slightly more visible.

 @sherbet: because after a while most brands in the bike industry tend to follow the 'Ferrari' trends and we all had to put up with press fit BBs, BOOST ULTRA TURBO MAX DELUXE spacing and QR15 on DH bikes. Enough is enough.

 @sherbet: Yeah, most of Scotts customers doesn´t wrench their bikes. But the disease is spreading to other brands and that is scary

 Most customers of most brands don't wrench on their own bikes. I sell Marin, Santa Cruz, Scott, Kona, Niner, and a host of others. The vast, and I cannot overstate this enough, vast majority of customers bring their bikes back for service for years after we've sold it to them, then get a new bike and the cycle starts again.

To those that haven't worked on the systems, you're overexaggerating how annoying it is. Most people I encounter don't swap their upper bearing on their headset for years. You should be getting brake service within that timeframe regardless.

We have other gorgeous bikes in this same category of bike. Blurs, Tallboys, Spurs, Rift Zones, etc. People are going for the Scott citing that the lack of cables is a plus for them. People would walk past the externally cabled Spark and go for the internal one, I cannot stress enough how this is absolutely a given reason for why the bikes are selling, and it comes up every time we sell one.

Don't buy the Scott if you don't want to deal with it. I have a 5010, my partner has a Spark. I prefer to work on my 5010 over the Spark, but the Spark is far from an issue.

The real issue I see with the new Spark, for example, is hilarious as nobody really tends to mention it, everyone's so focused on the cables it goes unsaid. It also paints a great picture of people complaining and having not worked on the bikes, as there's a vastly more egregious issue you'd bring up if you had. Plastic headset cups that wiggle in the frame even under correctly torqued headset figures. They flat out move around. I've taken to putting some loctite inside them fresh out of the box so they don't suffer from this. People need to bitch less about working on bikes and actually do it before making these strongly stated remarks, and you can always spot out the person in the comment section that hasn't.

Pinkbike posters have a serious issue accepting the fact they aren't the average rider/buyer, and so the market will not cater to them. There will always be bikes available with different routing options, go support those companies and vote with your wallet.

 @bok-CZ: i think your word choice here is exquisite

disease [ dih-zeez ] see also: plague, infestation

 @sherbet: Do you think cables stuffed through the headset is a selling point because most those buyers aren’t aware of the negatives or do you think they’re aware but willing to deal with it?

 @emptybe-er: It is a selling point, they enjoy the aesthetics of the bike. We tell people these bikes are Lambos when it comes to working on them, and it doesn't even make them flinch.

They're very willing to deal with it.

 @mikelevy: when you give attention to things it makes them real. So yes, you are supporting headset routing just by making the podcast about it. Kind of like what you did with Downcountry.

 @Dogl0rd: @mikelevy invented downcountry, it was @mikekazimer that made downcountry famous!

 @Dogl0rd: Send me a list of things you don't want to be real and I'll avoid talking about them

 @mikelevy: I broke 3 toes and maybe my foot when I clipped a pedal today, so please don't talk about that, also, the great Pacific Garbage Patch, never that

 @sanchofula: Oh, tell me all about that one. Was it a new bike?

 Even after listening to the podcast I'm still with @mikekazimer unless there is a performance benefit.

 +1 the timecoding is all screwed up on the last few podcasts... every time I stop & restart the podcast it jumps back 15-20 mins, but displays the time from when I stopped

 Gotta leave something for Gustav to do.

 60 grams seems laughable, but that's not the whole story. In case of the Spark, by going with headset routing Scott managed to save 60 grams while also increasing the stiffness in the headtube area by 20%. That's no mean feat.

 If you kink or flatten a brake hose, you most likely will have a soft spot in the hose that will cause some degradation of brake feel, if not power. I’ve seen it a bunch of times on customer bikes, specifically people that haul bikes with under top tube routing on a old style hanger bike rack. You’ll have these flattened spots that will bulge slightly under pressure. They’ll have poor lever feel or excessive travel and you can bleed it but it will still have a slightly squishy feel. If you find those spots you can physically feel them bulge with your fingers.

 Any brand with half a brain understands these polls are completely useless.

 What on Earth are you doing to wreck headsets that quickly. Mine last years. The one on my Cotic is 7 years old and running smooth

 @chrismac70: He lives in the UK. The general rule there is new prime minister = new headset time.

 That's because they're wrong tho

 modern problems require modern solutions

 If you use Magura and removed the lever I’d assume you’d be able to put a master cylinder through a 1.5” headset bearing. I haven’t tried but maybe a road lever with the blades removed as well. Looking at my XT levers, if you removed the clamp, I think they’d fit.

 Honestly you might be able to with those new codes.

 That's totally not unrealistic. Because these bikes with headset routing all use huge diameter bearings. Usually it's a ZS56 top and bottom, like on a downhill bike.

 I should mention bike before was an sb150. I was having press fit bottom bracket issues on the frame until they warrantied the frame. So a threaded bb was also a big selling point for me.

 I'd be open to wireless shifting, if the batteries lasted twice as long as they do on AXS currently and if it wouldn't cost any more than basic Shimano Deore/SLX.

 Interesting, I’d sigh and walk away.

 I think I typed the tag wrong @henryquinney. Every “through the headset” setup requires the brake to go through the bearing, pretty much by definition. The bikes you worked on that didn’t… maybe you forgot, or maybe they were a different setup? Maybe into the front of the headtube, or into the top of the top tube like some aero road bikes? Genuinely curious, since that was a key make or break for you. Thanks!

 @henryquinney:
I would like to know also, I‘ve seen one road or gravel bike (can’t remember the brand) that had grommets in front of the top bearing, all others going through the bearing…

 @henryquinney

 saves watts, please

 I was in San Martin for a few months then Pucon for a bit. This was recorded a few weeks ago though and I've just left sadly as I've got some stuff on in Canada.

 Power for the brakes could come from the cranks, no wait that may have drawbacks

 I'm putting a backpedal coaster brake on my mountain bike. That solves the entire problem... except actually stopping.

 Quite sure that wireless brakes on vehicles that access public roads can't legally be a thing where I live.

 I'm still not sold on it. Yes, it works well on some bikes but not all in my opinion. I think there is some flex somewhere in the food chain, hence the new hangers we're seeing. However, I wouldn't deny that no wire is better than having one. Mega riding though! I hope you're enjoying yourself.

 @henryquinney: Glad to hear that your position has shifted slightly. I have a bike full AXS and another with full cable. I will say my AXS has been pretty much maintainence free with no hanger or derailleur issues, while my cable bike has required much more derailleur tuning and hanger straightening. That's apart from how good it looks and how fast and flawlessly the dropper works

 Is that what the doctor said to your Mom when you were born?