The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 61 - Athlete Pay, Lycra, Equality and More from the State of the Sport Survey

 A few podcasts ago, y'all mentioned the Microsoft Tay chatbot, and mentioned that no one should ever attempt to simulate Pinkbike commenters like that. Well, I DID IT: twitter.com/ExcitedPinkbike

It's a Twitter account that tweets AI-generated Pinkbike comments, trained from a library of tens of thousands of PB comments over the past couple years.

Should I have wasted my time in this way? Absolutely not. But I did, so there it is.

 My Hoffman Bikes contract had a clause that said Mat Hoffman had to take me out for Braum’s ice-cream anytime I visited Oklahoma City.

 Only thing that will make xc racing more exciting than it is is more course variation. Make Albstadt an hr long sprint. Make nove maestro a 2 hr sufferfest. Have more natural technical courses that the core mtb guys really shine on, (Cairns was an awesome course) as well as courses where race craft is going to be the biggest factor (snowshoe).

The more varied the races the more varied the results will be which I think is ultimately good for sport and riders. I’d much rather see a guy win the overall cause he wins the races he excels at and does well in the others rather than another perfect season. It will also give more riders the opportunity to focus on getting a win somewhere rather than fight to stay in top 20.

Right now the only thing xc suffers from is other than a few iconic sections it can be a bit hard to differentiate a lot of courses from one another. Some courses should have one giant up and one giant down. Some should be criss crossing on 50 meters of elevation. Way too many are gravel climb to dh to natural climb to dh to sprinting around around a grass field with a bridge.

I currently only watch the courses i like. But if the courses I didn’t like as much offered different results and a different experience i’d watch those too.

 Very interested conversation. Disagree with Levy in that the sport is only becoming more commercial so a pay structure for 'support' level riders is needed to keep growing the sport. Also I can honestly say I'll never buy or own a DH bike but I do pay attention as to what bike brand wins and what they're doing with their other bikes, so in that case there is correlation to win on sunday, sell on monday.

And if the riders don't like doing social media, and if we all know their posts are BS just to get clicks for their sponsors, can we just drop the whole social media charade? Let the brands handle that since they're the ones benefiting the most from it. I feel like brands are valuing 'social media presence/status' because they're too cheap or lazy or both to do their own marketing.

 I have to say I really appreciate unleashed @henryquinney , loved the ideas for a better structure in racing, and enjoyed the social media rant from Henry and Levy. There's some really poignant thoughts hidden in that rant.

 I can’t think of anything more equitable than calling us Pinkers.

 Levy can say pink pod but James has to read ad copy? Levy must has some good dirt on Brian!

 Question for you guys, though slightly off topic. I've really enjoyed the latest value bikes field trip and it has me wondering on your thoughts on used bikes in the $2,000-$3,000 range. I've always recommended used bikes to newcomers in the sport, with the caveat that they should purchase the bike alongside someone with a bit more mechanical knowledge and to include a full tune up in the total cost of the bike. What are your thoughts?

 Some good stuff..

DH racing..For a sales standpoint, one of the worse things out there.. But, from a marketing perspective, a lot of eyeballs see the brands.

R&D... I think we are starting to see that shift to enduro bikes and then the manufacturers upscale it a bit for DH, downsize for trail.. And to touch on Henry's point, once that carbon "prototype " is out there, it's no really a prototype at that point, it's preproduction. Not much will dramatically change once the molds are made..

Social media is a double edge sword.. For riders, its the easiest way to show their reach.. Followers, views, likes... The numbers are there.. Sales numbers aren't really a solid way to show if an athlete is truly selling bikes unless a lot of people are saying "I bought Brand T bike because Rider J rides one.. On the other hand, it's easy for a company to look at those same numbers and say "Yeah, but this rider has pretty good results and way more followers..."

As for the minimum wage, a lot of riders are not on factory teams.. Of the top 40 polled, how many on on smaller teams that may not have the funds of the top tier teams?

 Lots of interesting stuff, but skin-suits in DH? f*ck off. And when you get there, f*ck off from there too. Then f*ck off some more. Keep f*cking off until you get back here. Then f*ck off again....

 Henry is such a great addition to the pinkbike team! Lots of great insights and ideas. Look forward to hearing more on future podcasts

 I'd also say that you're slightly confused as to what is the motor of capitalist industry. What you're paid has nothing to do with how much output you create. A capitalist invests their money in a process which will return the money forwarded along with a surplus, profit. They will do what they can to make the outlay in wages as small as possible so that the surplus is as large as possible. The money they spend on wages are no more than that which the worker considers they need to keep them living the quality of life they have become accustomed to. The capitalist has to do this because if they don't, another capitalist will and eventually outcompete and subsume them with the extra surplus. The only bulwark against this is the power of the worker to demand more of a share of the value of the product. It's why union jobs tend to better paid, why high profile riders can wield their status for more money and why lesser riders, desperate to make it get exploited. In a toss up between quite how much profit already incredibly wealthy people make Vs professional athletes making a living from a full time sport, I know which I choose....

 No UFOs again! cmon!

 @henryquinney so i don’t know how much you know about the technical side of bikes, but just because the mold of the bike is done, doesn’t mean that the whole bike is done. A lot of designing a carbon fiber bike isn’t the outer mold, it is the layup inside. You can have the same mold and test 50 different carbon layups, reinforcing some parts, using less material in other parts, and i think that is probably where most of the “testing” of the new bikes come from

 I think it would be cool if all disciplines of bike racing went to a franchise model similar to professional ball sports. Then the owner of the franchise could build that brand as a business with marketing, merchandising and all that fun stuff and separate the franchise naming from the sponsors. This way the fans wouldn't be left wondering who's who at the end of each season, there would be more continuity between each year and hopefully your average Joe would be able to sport your teams merch without looking like a tool or a want to be. Maybe this model is more relevant to the road world were the team plays a bigger role and less on the dirt side where an individual rider is more dominant, but I think its still worth exploring. We don't have to sell ourselves short just because we are riding bikes. We can be just as big of a money and time sink as any other sport out there.

 way back when, as a Jr racer, IOC decided DH was not going to be an Olympic event. I decided to not peruse racing as a "professional" for a courier. According to the pinkbike survey i could buy and sell riders on a whim as a team owner. i think i made the right choice.
Maybe ill create my own trade team, pay myself and still get as much media coverage as 80% of the start list at a World Cup, that is to say no coverage at all.
lets face it. thats already what most of us do anyway.

 Question: been thinking about a bike for my friend who's getting into the sport. The trails around here are pretty rough with lots of roots and rocks, but he's not looking to bomb stuff. Would you recommend the Ripmo AF or Ripley AF? He's on the cusp of a M and L and would go with a M to make it more manageable. Seems like the Ripmo will be more bike to pedal around, but be more forgiving and comfy on the chunky downs. Guessing Levy will say Ripley and Kaz will say Ripmo.

 Supply and demand. There is no shortage of 20 somethings willing to huck their meat for a free frame.

 LMAO, my take away from the PB staff, capitalism, BAD! Which is quite funny for a company/website that exists purely on marketing dollars and brand partnerships... And show me a non capitalist based country that has not only had an impact, but any involvement what so ever in mountain biking?

 I actually think XC courses are in a great spot right now! There's enough variation from course to course that it lets different skill sets shine, and the majority of them are techy enough that a rider can't win an overall series without being a seriously good bike handler. Also nice work on the survey, it's creating a ton of insight and good discussion!

 I have thoughts.
For starters, Henry Quinney is a fantastic addition (he is newish right?) to the team. Great insight and future thinking. And I know that you all have unlimited time for podcasts, so please record another 5-6 hours on these topics, mmkay?

I come from the snowboard industry and it is pretty easy to make parallels and glean the future using the history of what they have been through. Also, this will likely read with little cohesion. It could be smoother/clearer, but meh.

On pay, the number one fact or concept to understand about a pro athlete before any further conversation is that they are a marketing tool, and most of their value as such is view time for the audience. Road was mentioned and a factor to be considered there, that also somewhat applies to XC, is that much of the field is in the same shot as your top performers. So even ignoring the team level aspect of the sport, the rider that has little to no hope of ever being in contention for any color jersey is at least valuable as another body with brand names attached to it. It was briefly mentioned, but in downhill your coverage is pretty much limited to the top 10 or even just the top 5. You will likely never even see the rider, or what they’re riding, if they’re below 20. Bridging the topic to social media, without it that rider in the bottom half of the field is frankly pretty useless to any sponsor if they aren’t utilizing social. In a snowboard shop, the “best” board is rarely the one that sells the fastest; there are truly VERY few options that are just garbage, so people buy with their hearts. Bikes have hit that same level at this point. I’ve done gear reviews for years and have ridden well over 300+ boards in the last 10 years, but your average rider will get on maybe 5 over their lifetime and not ride anything different in short enough time, so the minute performance advantage is lost on them. It’s the same, if not more pronounced on a bike. So how good a bike is, or how fast it is only affects the core of mtbr’s which as mentioned DOES effect the general public by proxy, but only by proxy. They otherwise will only be influenced by how that bike brand makes them feel. And social, more than any other media, is targeted at eliciting an emotional response. Also, the same people that are so quick to shoot down social media are also the ones that love to reminisce about the old videos and magazines and how much they consumed that media. Same thing new age, adapt or die. The OG media in snowboarding is all but dead, they didn’t adapt. People hunger to be a part of a tribe, if that tribe they feel pulled to rides Trek, that’s what they’re going to buy, period. Slope and Freeride’s ties to social make too much sense to me, those disciplines fit socials short-time instant eye-candy more than any form of racing. I have little sympathy for riders that have established careers and once they stop racing or putting out content lose their support. Sure it sucks to see, and if you hit legend status you should be cared for, period. But also remember there is always someone younger and probably better/faster that is ready to huck their meat for a paycheck. Make yourself valuable outside of riding your bike if you want a more stable future. This is already way too long, so I’ll stop, but I could talk these topics for hours.

 Great having Henry able to speak his mind a bit more at Pinkbike as compared to last place. It's refreshing.

Also I think it would be great to invite/put out feelers to the pro athletes if any of them DO want to talk openly and not anonymously about the results. It would be great to hear from some athletes who are willing to talk about these topics and get their perspective too

 Professional mountain bikers of the world unite! You have nothing to loose but your chains (Not joking)

 I won a pair of goggles and $20 gift card to our local pet shop last year in my hometown beer league DH, so I have that going for me!

 Levy is definitely foreskin suit... I mean for skin suit... nope had it right the first time.

 Brian really came across like a dick to me on this one.

 Does the survey include podium prizes/ winnings or just company pay checks. For people like Brandon Semnuk podium prize checks can boost income dramatically.

 Question: how do we get the UCI to be better for mountain biking? Like could we elect people or something?

 None of my buddies or myself was ever influenced in our buying decisions by race results in any discipline.

 Grim Series
All same bike, all same components - lowest end (tyre inserts) and skin suits.

 @mikelevy did you just say ,"foreskin suits?"

 Pinkpod, lol... so evocative!

 What's that you were saying about foreskin suits at the end there, @mikelevy?!

 @mikelevy please please never ask again if folk are in favour foreskin suits......

 WTF @39:10, PinkBike,
stop being biased and
stop throwing like that
"companies/drands in the ditches" !!!