“The new Awesome-O 5000 is longer and slacker for this season, and....” How many times have you read a similar line when a new bike is first introduced? Mountain bike geometry is constantly evolving, but the pace seems to have picked up over the last five years. Longer and slacker has become the prevailing theme for any new bike model, and the concept of running shorter stems on frames with longer reach numbers has gained widespread acceptance, for good reason.
But there's a limit to just how long you can make a bike before the handling and fit are compromised, especially on a trail bike, where a comfortable climbing position is just as important as its downhill handling. With that in mind, imagine for a moment that the limits of just how long and slack a bike can be (for its intended purpose) had been reached – could anything else be done to improve its handling?
Transition Bikes thinks so, which is why they've unveiled their Speed Balanced Geometry, or SBG. It's a multi-faceted concept, but the main idea revolves around fork offset, or, more specifically, running forks with less offset than what is currently considered “normal,” along with slackening the bike's head angle and increasing the reach. The goal is to create a bike that remains even more stable and composed at high speeds and on steep terrain, but can still easily be navigated around tight turns while climbing up the trail. Transition aren't the first company to experiment with this idea — Mondraker, Pole, and Nicolai are a few of the companies that come to mind with regards to pushing the boundaries — but Transition's widespread use of SBG for their upcoming line of bikes puts them at the forefront of what could be the next big shift for modern mountain bike geometry.
Before diving in too deep, it's worth taking a few minutes to go over some of the basics regarding trail and offset. If you've heard it all before, feel free to skip ahead, but otherwise, here's a quick rundown.
The basics of offset and trail Offset: Imagine you were to take off your stem top cap and shine a laser pointer straight through the exact center of that star-fangled nut. This is your steering axis. Now, measure how far away the front axle is from that line. That's your fork offset. Fork offset varies between wheelsize, and most suspension forks for 29” wheels currently have either a 46 or 51mm offset. For 27.5” wheels that number is typically either 42 or 44mm and for 26” wheels (remember those?) it's 37 or 40mm.
Trail: Trail is the distance from the center of the tire's contact patch to the point where the steering axis (that laser you aimed through the star nut) hits the ground. Trail is only one part of the equation that determines how a bike will handle, but the general rule of thumb is that a higher trail number can lead to more stability as speeds increase but at the cost of increased wheel 'flop' at slower speeds. Less trail can create quicker steering, which is why most 29ers ended up with forks with more offset — the idea was to reduce the trail number so that it was closer to what you'd find on a 26" or 27.5" bike with the same head angle, thus creating a similar steering feel.
It's worth noting that as the trail number decreases, the wheelbase increases, and vice versa. In other words, if you use a fork with a reduced offset, the front wheel will actually move back, increasing the trail, while shortening the overall wheelbase.
Confused yet? Hopefully not, but there's no denying that these concepts can seem overwhelming at times. As easy as it is to ride a bike, figuring out and explaining why they behave in a certain way is much more difficult. There's also the fact that there's no absolute set of figures that will create the perfect bike. Take chainstay length, for example, a number that's led to countless heated arguments online and in the real world. Should they be as short as possible? Is longer better? Or is the Goldilocks number somewhere in the middle? The truth is, there's no right answer. Chainstay length, head angle, reach, trail; the list of variables goes on, and it's impossible to say that one school of thought is absolutely better than the other (unless that school of thought states that really long stems and steep head angles are a good thing... I like to think that we've moved past that by now).
Nerd alert. Lars Sternberg and Sam Burkhardt are serious about creating better bikes, but they also know when to lose the pocket protectors and have a good time.
What made Transition decide to adopt a new geometry philosophy? The initial push for the geometry change came from Lars Sternberg, Transition's resident tinkerer. With a little bit of downtime on his hands as the 2015 season came to an end, he stumbled upon an article describing
Chris Porter's experiments with running reduced fork offset. Inspired, he raided his parts stash and began experimenting. He started by taking the upper crown assembly from a 26” Fox 36 which had 37mm of offset and reinstalling it on a 27.5” fork. He then put an angleset into his Patrol in order to steepen the head angle by one degree.
On paper, that steepening of the head angle created a bike with the same trail number as before the fork swap, but once his tires hit the dirt, Lars realized that the ride characteristics felt completely different. The reduced offset put the weight balance in a different spot, and the bike felt as if it was cornering better than ever.
Intrigued, Lars continued to experiment and soon realized that going with a slacker head angle (rather than the steeper setting he initially tried) and a reduced offset seemed to be the ticket, creating a bike that was even more stable at high speeds, but still maneuverable for slower sections of trail. “If you just shorten the offset and don't do anything else you get the steering change, but what you incur is tuck. You're basically just pulling your front wheel back, so when you're coming into a section that has a sharp turn, your front wheel wants to knife under you. If you're going to shorten the offset you need to slacken the head tube angle so you achieve better handling in those scenarios,” says Lars.
The Super Smuggler, one of the bikes that Lars used for his offset and head angle experimentation.
 | You can't change anything like this without some sort of tradeoff, but I feel what you're trading off is worth it. And in the end I've found we're not losing any positive attributes, we're actually gaining some. It's providing a more comfortable experience at higher speeds – you're allowing people to ride better.— Lars Sternberg |
Sam Burkhardt, Transition's product manager, started to join in on the experiments as well, but according to Sam, “I was initially a little bit of a naysayer – I told him [Lars], 'It's cool, I think it's great if you keep doing this, but this isn't something that's going to work for us [Transition] – we need to be working with things we can buy.” Without the ability to easily obtain reduced offset 27.5” or 29” forks the project didn't seem like it would go much further than the experimental stage. However, after talking with Fox and RockShox, it turned out that they would be able to get the forks necessary to bring this new geometry idea to the mass market, and the project began to gain momentum.
Transition's current geometry numbers fall well within the realm of what is considered modern, but the next generation of bikes, including a longer travel 29er that's yet to be officially announced, will be based around the SBG concept, and take things a step further.
“Just based on the numbers some people could be excited or other people could be freaked out,” says Sam. But despite the boundary-pushing numbers, he's quick to offer the reminder that, “Nothing we've done with the head angle is so extreme that you can't run a normal offset – you're just not getting the full benefit of it.”
The components of SBGThere are five main components that differentiate Transition's new Speed Balanced Geometry from what they have used in the past. Moving forward, new bikes will have an even longer reach, a slacker head angle, a reduced fork offset, a steeper seat tube angle, and shorter stems. Even though on paper the longer reach numbers may seem daunting (a size large will now be 475mm), the new bikes will be spec'd with 10mm shorter stems, and the steeper seat angle will also help to maintain a similar bar to saddle distance to Transition's previous models. The reduced offset fork will also partially counteract the wheelbase length increase that comes with a slacker head angle.
Transition have also worked hard to ensure that the traits that made their bikes so popular aren't erased by the switch to the new geometry principles. Sure, some of the increased high-speed stability that SBG achieves could have been accomplished by increasing the bikes' chainstay length, but Lars says, “If we lengthened the rear ends significantly you're going to change how they manual, how playful they are. We're effectively bringing the stability back and bringing the rider into a better center of balance as much as you would have by lengthening the chainstays.”
That doesn't mean that things will feel exactly the same; according to Lars, “You can't change anything like this without some sort of tradeoff, but I feel what you're trading off is worth it. And in the end I've found we're not losing any positive attributes, we're actually gaining some. It's providing a more comfortable experience at higher speeds – you're allowing people to ride better.”
Is this the future?Are we going to see a wholesale switch to reduced offset numbers throughout the industry? Are Transition simply an early adopter of what will soon become a common geometry trend? It's too early to tell for sure, but I have a strong feeling that it won't be long before we see more and more companies going down this route. Mountain biking is still continuing to evolve, and geometry ideas that worked in the past, back in the days when bikes were short and stems were long, may no longer be relevant. If it's possible to produce bikes that are more stable at higher speeds while still retaining their maneuverability when the pace slows, it only makes sense to give it a try.
In the end, if it feels like a bike & you get off of it smiling, who gives a turd. Just make bikes.
.....by a whole 4mm............woop.
25 / 50mm I could understand a noticeable difference. I added a Gary Fisher longer reach fork to my old felt on 26" wheels years back and the longer wheelbase made it more stable, no change to the head angle. But if it was only 2mm I doubt I'd have noticed it.
Probleme was, that 29" forks got more offset and frames got steeper HAs. Trek was sorting that out with their Slash 29er.
www.pinkbike.com/news/behind-the-bike-developing-the-xxl-santa-cruz-v10-2016.html
"Greg convinced me that you don't want a stem any longer than the offset of your fork," says Marshy. Greg didn’t want a stem length too different to the offset of his fork".
Took measurements before install.
Was Jason working on his bike back then too?
It sounds so simple, but how do we make these bikes? Are you suggesting we don't overcomplicate it and just make 'em? If so, the only solution is to make them exactly as they already are. If we did that, nothing would ever change and we'd still be on fully rigid bikes with 130 mm stems.
Someone has to think about this. The progress from the bad old days until now came from people thinking about it and experimenting. Maybe the analysis isn't for you, so thank goodness there are people who enjoy the complication and the process of improvement.
Maybe a better motto would be "Just buy bikes." Leave the thinking to us.
FOX places their offset in the crowns so I may just keep the crowns from my 26 40 if I get a 49 for science purposes.
2mm, do know what that looks like?
From where did you get this information?
Think about what possible performance increase could be derived by increasing (or decreasing) shock stroke by 3mm, yet many people say the metric shocks feel better than non metric.
Anyways cool that Transition tries! At least on Pinkbike everyone is a great rider wanting aggresive geo for natural technical trails, so it's good place to sell the concept
It would be that easy.
I will say it: why has no one made one yet?
I, for example, am a lousy rider and so, I don't use more wheel travel than 140 at the rear and 160 mm in the front. Okay, okay, I like a lot of compression damping.
My ride: fthumb.mtb-news.de/cache/1170_auto_1_1_0/5d/aHR0cHM6Ly9mc3RhdGljMS5tdGItbmV3cy5kZS92My8yMS8yMTMyLzIxMzI0MTYtdXBvMm1nNGJzNmtlLWZvdG9fMDAxNC1vcmlnaW5hbC5qcGc.jpg
It has a similar geo to a Santa Cruz V10.
Although I'd dreaming of a Nicolai G19 with Eagle drivetrain, I'll also stick with my enduro bike, because it's enough bike for me. And I also like more to improve my skills, als my bikes.
In the article they start with "Longer and slacker is over-marketed", which I agree; and in the end they present a bike that's "longer and slacker bro".
I'm just super stoked that a Bandit successor had been tacitly announced
Vital MTB delivers further data about the SBG:
HA = 64°
Offset = 42 and 44 mm
Wheel size = 29".
which results in a trail of 135 and 133 mm.
For example, Aaron Gwins YT Tues has a trail of 119 mm.
Nicolai G19: 128 and 134 mm
Nicolai G16: 128 mm
Nicolai G13: 116 and 121 mm
My Giant Trance: 126 mm.
BOS has some massiv offset an its 27,5" Idylle: 56 mm. If you put it in a Solid Strike, you'll get a trail of 125 mm. So, Transition really went for a lot of trail.
There are, of course, negative effects. First of all, you need strong arms and shoulders. Then, you shouldn't steer too much, but lean the bike into corners und be aware of switchbacks.
I think, the SBG concept will work good on so called flow trails.
It's a bit like the smartphone world : we came to tactile screens, internet on phones, great cameras, but now we feel like the progression curb is flattening.
Have we reached some sort of a pic ?
Everything you said is just improving things that already exist, not big revolutions.
I mean, getting from Nokia 3310 to the first iPhone or whatever modern smartphone was a big step forward. Going from the Galaxy S5 to the S8 isn't, to me at least. It is just improvements of an already great product.
In MTB, the next revolution could be the gearbox ? I'm just speculating obviously.
Furthermore if you actually want to keep the chainstays short (shock horror) then you kind of have to keep the front centre short too or you'll never find any grip from the front end which means a steep head angle which also means less confidence and stability. But shorten the offset and you can slacken the head angle a touch, increasing trail, confidence and stability without increasing the front centre so much you lose the ability to weight the front wheel.
Be patient.
p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2017/04/14/5096/s1200_Teaser.jpg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUsl-qb138A
www.pinkbike.com/photo/14889605
We believe our maintenance requirements will be no worse than any other bike, yet will deliver more advanced chassis dynamics. If you want zero maintenance, you'll have to ride a rigid, belt-driven singlespeed!
Very interesting. I wonder if the Scout and Smuggler will get the same amount of adjustment as the Patrol or whether they'll be a little more conservative with those?
As I said in another thread I've experimented myself a bit with this stuff and while I agree the ride improves at speed I did think it was quite a lot worse a lower speeds but I went down to 64° on a 29er (flip flop was huge with shorter offset and I hated it tbh though once at speed it was better). A slightly steeper HA may work well but I decided there was no way to make a 29er the way I wanted, became frustrated and just said f*ck it and bought a Scout. Really like it and I hope they don't change it too much tbh. If the new ones has 66° HA and 37mm offset that would be ideal, please Transition ;-) Ramble over.
I think both the Scout and Smuggler are great bikes in the UK if you have the short, steep and twisty trails that are so abundant here. The Scout makes a great jump bike too so I hope they don't go too crazy with the slackness.
With 51 mm, the bike had a trail of 125 mm, which should be a good value.
idk what the rest of you think, but most enduro bikes are plenty stable for me. Its keeping them playful and nimble that is the problem. Especially with 29" wheels.
Would be nice for all fork manufactures to offer a variety of CSU's with different offsets.
Kudos to Transition.
So acronyms aside - Kona and Transition have been at the forefront of what we could probably call modern trail bike geometry. They both have followed that through - and to see Transition emphasizing geometry in an attempt to further make their bikes more intuitive, more user friendly, and more fun bodes well, for them, for the industry, and for our little town of Bellingham.
Nope. Not everybody is a racer, some are just looking for a fun and playful bike on 08/15 trails.
www.bikeradar.com/us/mtb/gear/article/pushing-the-limits-of-fork-offset-an-experiment-45343
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.
www.instagram.com/p/BQVhq1BAs6j/?taken-by=wakidesigns
But variable fork offset is next on the list...
It has even been said that shorter offset forks may allow the bike to corner better (even though the steering 'feels' slower). A fork with a large offset theoretically puts the contact patch of the front tyre inside your cornering arc whereas a shorter one will keep it more 'inline' - though it's also been mentioned that there are so many variables involved in cornering a two wheeled vehicle that nobody is really sure what's better and what's not. Chris Porter and Lars seem convinced enough to put the idea into production but there is no correct answer when it comes to geometry.
Point being that decreasing trail is more or less guaranteed to produce worse performance at higher speed, in exchange for better handling at low speed.
As ever, there is a trade to be made.
It is great to see Transition experimenting with bike geometry and the direction they are taking things is good, for the most part. However, making things up about about how trail works is not a good look. Increased trail leads to increased straight line stability and thus increased stability at high speed, which is a good thing because all riders will go faster in straight sections of a track/course/road when engine power (combustion, pedal or other) is the main determining factor of performance. This kind if stability can also be of benefit in high speed corners - berms is the obvious example in mountain biking. But high trail values slows down steering at lower speed - steering can become sluggish and feel heavy during cornering.
Now, as steering angles are slackened, and in mountain biking there happens to be very good reasons for slackening steering geometry, up to a point, steering will become more sluggish at lower speeds unless some remedial measures are taken. The reason steering becomes more sluggish is the increase in mechanical trail that naturally follows from slackening the steering angle while continuing to use the standard/existing fork axle offset. Of course, by increasing axle offset and thus reducing mechanical trail bike and fork designers can go a long way to restoring the responsiveness of steering that gets impaired by slackened steering geometry.
But, why play this game? Don't you just lose the stability at high speed that has been gained by slackening the steering geometry once you increase the fork axle offset to reduce mechanical trail to a value that ensures responsive steering? While it is true that there is a complex balance of factors governing high speed bicycle stability and steering responsiveness, a significant part of the stability gain that follows from slackened steering geometry isn't lost by making compensatory changes, i.e. increasing axle offset/reducing mechanical trail, to improve the low speed steering responsiveness. Straight line composure of a bike is not only determined by the stabilising castor effect that is heightened by increases in mechanical trail (resulting from slackened steering geometry) but it also directly follows from the wheelbase of the bike and any slackening of the steering geometry or increase in axle offset (individually or together, but together is best) will result in some increase in wheelbase. For a bike with a long wheelbase reducing mechanical trail for the sake of steering responsiveness does not jeopardise the bike's rightfully prized stability at high speed.
Now, if we look closely at what Transition is offering in terms of fork axle offset for the Sentinel 29er (the first bike to get the SBG treatment) we find that a "42/44mm" (a couple of options, apparently, that are both reduced axle offsets from the common 51mm offset of 29er forks) offset and 64 degree head angle is being used on a bike probably intended for Enduro use. Those geometry parameters will very likely combine to produce a bike with a vague and sluggish steering feel at lower speeds despite Transition's claim to have things sorted.
A check of Transition's claims about fork axle offset can easily be carried out. Just whack a standard long travel 29er fork (with a 51mm axle offset) on the bike and compare handling directly. Don't be surprised if the standard fork is better.
I am not unhappy with the substance of my comment, except insofar as it mischaracterises and impugns your mechanically correct remarks. But, I would like to offer my sincere apology for the mischaracterisation. Sorry, mate.
@dthomp325 That's the option I've thought of so far. Order a 36 RC2 29er and a CSU for a 26 or 650b 170mm fork. Why does FOX have to use a ridiculous 15mm axle system though!
The mainstream North American brands are pretty stale innovation wise. They seem to think 100 frame colour options is what people want.
Cornering felt a wee bit sluggish compared to the 33, but he descending didn't feel too different, so my next test will be to go back to a 40mm stem to compare all three.
Would experimenting stem lengths be a cheaper way to experiment handling performance and feel than swapping out crowns, while still being able to find the best performance?
Ummm... punching the Sentinel numbers into a calculator produces the following:
Trail 138mm
Wheel Flop 54mm
Mechanical Trail 124mm
I hate the wheel flop (what Transition calls "tuck" on my current bike which is significantly smaller at 40mm... The Sentinel will have extreme wheel flop issues and make navigating tight twisty single track quite challenging.
Maybe the Patrol would be better for tight twisty trails? I rarely ride on flowy trails.... What if I put my 160/130 27.5 42mm pike on the 2018 Patrol instead of the 170 27.5 37mm lyrik???
its common knowledge that as bikes get slacker fork offset needs to be reduced to stop them handling like a boat. how are they getting away with pretending like they came up with this idea?
Did you read the same article as me? In the third paragraph it states "Transition aren't the first company to experiment with this idea". And then later on Lars gives credit to Chris Porter.
I'm interested to ride this. Does it actually work, or are they sacrificing slow speed/climbing handling?
www.tantrumcycles.com/press.html
" as the 2015 season came to an end, he stumbled upon an article describing Chris Porter's experiments with running reduced fork offset. Inspired, he raided his parts stash and began experimenting."
Later it says the new bikes are slacker... I really think the author got confused himself...
Probably best to just try it on the next testival...