Trickstuff Cleg 4 Disc Brake - Review

Mar 24, 2015
by Richard Cunningham  

Cleg-4 Disc Brake 2015


The Cleg 4 is a beautifully made and well-engineered disc brake, designed by deranged German engineers at who wanted the most powerful braking system that could be made, but also one that could also be precisely modulated. Its master cylinders, levers and four-piston calipers are CNC-machined aluminum, its stainless steel rotors are extra thick, and it uses a special DOT 5.1 brake fluid that was developed for Formula 1 motor racing. One side weighs 245 grams without a rotor and mounting hardware, which makes the Cleg 4 among the lighter stoppers in the high-performance trail brake class. It is also the most expensive. Two Cleg 4 brakes, ready to ride, will cost you $1,150 USD. I am certain that when this review is posted, the roar of discontent reverberating from skinflints in the UK will be heard around the world, but the Cleg 4 brake exudes the powerful attraction that well-executed, handmade machinery has on cyclists and many are happy to pay a premium for it. Trickstuff, the people who make Cleg 4 brakes, produce them in small batches and in a number of color combinations, with each set custom-configured for individual customers.




Features:

• Four-piston calipers CNC-machined from 7075 T6 alloy
• Two-part bolted caliper halves
• Rotors: Stainless steel, 2.05mm thick - 140, 160, 180, 200, 203mm
• Tapered rotor for quick wheel changes
• DOT 5.1 brake fluid
• Extremely simple, "idiot-proof bleeding."
• Top-loading pads with Shimano profile - organic or sintered metallic
• Lever-reach adjustment via 2mm hex key
• Post-mount fitting with extended adjustment range
• Low hand force through high ratio, low-friction master cylinder piston.
• High pressure-resistant Kevlar hoses, cut to length as required, reusable Goodridge fittings.
• CNC-machined aluminum, short or medium-length levers
• Options: High pressure-resistant Goodridge steel hose, low viscosity “SuperFormula” brake fluid, special anodized colors
• Standard colors: anodized silver, black, red
• Weight: 245 grams (claimed) charged, with lever, caliper and front-length hose (no rotor or hardware.) Test weight - 420grams (front, with180mm rotor).
• MSRP: $575 USD per side as tested.
• Contact: Trickstuff, Radsport USA


Cleg-4 Disc Brake 2015
The Cleg levers are clamped with a band of 7075 T6 aluminum, using polished stainless steel hardware. The wide clamp minimizes the possibility of stressing carbon handlebars.


Construction and Technology

The Cleg 4 brake adds a powerful 4-piston caliper brake to their original two-piston version and creates what is essentially a new, ground-up design. As mentioned, the entire system is CNC-machined from aluminum and stainless steel. The radial master cylinder and reservoir are in the lever perch to conserve space on the handlebar and to maximize the rider’s options for shift lever and remote dropper placements. The Cleg 4 lever assembly, hoses, and caliper, fully charged weigh 245 grams, depending upon hose length. Add a 180-millimeter rotor, an adapter and the necessary hardware to that, and the weight recalculates to around 420 grams per side for our test setup. Compare that with 390 grams for a Shimano M9020 XTR trail brake and the Cleg 4 is in the ballpark, but certainly not the lightest in class.

Cleg-4 Disc Brake 2015
The Cleg 4 calipers are bolted together in halves, which is said to be stiffer. Top-loading pads are interchangeable with Shimano, and the outer edge of the rotor is tapered to facilitate wheel changes.


The hydraulic ‘leverage ratio’ (differential between the area of the master cylinder piston and the combined area of the caliper pistons) is set to maximize the stopping force generated at the caliper, with a minimum squeeze force at the lever blade. Trickstuff notes that this configuration slightly reduces the firmness of the lever’s feel at the pad’s contact point, but the benefit is less hand fatigue and easier modulation in maximum braking situations.

Cleg-4 Disc Brake 2015
Radial master cylinders take up less real estate on the handlebar and conserve weight because the cylinder and reservoir bodies double as the lever perch and clamp assembly.


Levers are available in both a one-finger and a two-finger length, and special profiling is used to make the flats of the blade follow the change in the grip angles of the two fingers most often used for braking. Adjustments for lever reach and engagement are flush, so there are no protruding dials to break off in a crash.

The Cleg 4 calipers are made in halves after Trickstuff’s testing revealed that steel pinch bolts resisted flex measurably better than a one-piece machined or forged caliper body could. The four-piston arrangement features a smaller-diameter leading piston (13mm front, 16mm rear) to even out the clamping force of the caliper across the brake pads, which is reported to reduce noise and improve braking power, in addition to their promise of longer lifespans for the pads.

The top-loading pads are manufactured for Trickstuff, using its organic compound and the backing is the same design as Shimano XT and XTR to ensure that customers can find replacements anywhere in a pinch. Cleg pads are also available with sintered metallic friction material for riders who need a longer wearing pad or desire a firmer feel at the contact point.

Cleg rotors are made from a special stainless steel and are thicker than average (2.05 millimeters) to conduct heat more efficiently and better resist warping under maximum stopping conditions. A chamfered edge eases the task of installing a wheel by guiding the rotor between the pads, and rotors are available in six-bolt and Shimano’s spline system, as well as a number of popular, non-standard bolt patterns.
Cleg-4 Disc Brake 2015

Cleg-4 Disc Brake 2015
The Cleg's two-finger lever is the standard option and it is very comfortable. There is a small reach-adjustment screw, but no bite-point adjustment.

Cleg-4 Disc Brake 2015
Rotors are reportedly made with a heat-resistant stainless steel alloy that is also used for turbine blades. The thicker, 2.05-millimeter disc is said to better dissipate heat and to remain straighter.


Trickstuff makes Cleg brakes in small batches and in a number of anodized color combinations (expect up-charges for some colors). Brakes are made to order, and arrive in a fancy wooden box in your selected colors, pre-bled and with hoses made to your specified lengths, and with your choice of rotor diameters and adapters. Standard levers for Cleg 4 brakes are the longer, two-finger models, but you can ask for the short lever blades if it suits your fancy. Goodridge steel-reinforced hoses are optional for the firmest contact feel.

Trickstuff touts that its Cleg brakes are foolproof to bleed and sells a service kit, which looks and operates exactly like an Avid twin-syringe type kit. Stock brakes use DOT 5.1 fluid, which is a higher temperature formula based upon the universally accepted DOT 4 and not the problematic DOT 5 that probably should be abandoned by the industry as a whole. If you are interested in upgrading your present DOT 4-type brakes, DOT 5.1 is compatible and Trickstuff sells SuperFormula brand 5.1 fluid, which is reportedly used for F1 racing and has the highest boiling point one can buy off the shelf.


Trail Test Results

The Cleg 4 brakes are targeted at the sport's most elite riders in both price and performance, and they have received high honors from respected European media channels, so a gloves-off review is fair game. Sitting alongside the current leader, Shimano's XTR trail brake, the Cleg 4 looks like an award winning street rod parked next to a McLaren P1. Both are beautiful in their own right, but a generation apart in style and execution.

The Cleg's long lever, compared to the XTR's shorty blade suggests that it would feel cumbersome, but it is quite comfortable in hand. Neither XTR nor the Cleg 4 has an engagement-point adjustment (Shimano pretends to have one). The Cleg's engagement is quick and crisp feeling, which provides a consistent contact point at a wide range of lever positions. Shimano's Servo-Wave cam provides a similar function, but it feels a tad clunky. The Cleg 4 has a boxy radial master cylinder and reservoir which triples the footprint of its clamp on the handlebar compared to XTR, but Shimano's in-line reservoir and master cylinder design bangs on SRAM shift pods and limits options for positioning a remote dropper lever. The Cleg's, boxy profile and all, did a nice job of squeezing between the existing controls of our test bike, and the angle that the hoses exit (similar to Magura and Formula), ends up tracing a much better path around the frame's head tube. So far, so good.

Cleg-4 disc brake 2015
The Cleg 4 brakes played well with the Cannondale's remote dropper and suspension controls, and the hose routing looks cleaner than the more popular in-line master cylinders, like Shimano XTR end up.

Initial setup was easy. The thick rotors had no runout, and all we needed to do to get the brake pads centered over the rotors was to squeeze the lever while tightening the caliper fixing bolts. As promised, the rotor's tapered edges made short work of wheel changes. They seemed to fall into place between the pads. The test bike was a Cannondale Jekyll, which has a remote suspension lever on the right and a RockShox dropper button on the left side of the bar. The band-type clamp eliminated the annoying castings and pinch bolts that most brake lever perches have, giving our thumbs a cleaner shot at the remotes and the SRAM right-side shift lever.

We were warned that the Cleg's organic pads, which were said to have a mix of ceramic, metallic and organic fibers, would take a longer time to bed into the rotor's braking tracks, so we were not surprised to discover that braking continuously improved over two solid rides before stopping authority occurred the instant the pads contacted the rotors. The feel was much like Galfer's organic pads - slightly noisy and very grippy, but with authoritative stopping power that was very proportional to the squeeze force at the lever blade. The Cleg 4 brakes modulate better than XTR at the point of pad contact, which led to a lot less skidding on the dusty rock faces where most of our test riding took place. When it did rain, the pad material bit the wet rotors hard enough to produce a similar feel as in dry conditions with no perceivable lag at the contact point.

Three rides in and the rear brake started to howl and moan, and no amount of cleaning or rotor preparation would silence it. Trickstuff said that I either had contaminated pads, or that the Cannondale's swingarm was winding up near the caliper mount and causing an oscillation. New pads and a freshly resurfaced rotor silenced the rear brake for the winter season, but the low howl returned just before testing concluded. Occasionally, we would get a peep from the front brake in wet conditions (XTR brakes do that also), but otherwise, the only sound it made was a slight hiss when the pads first contacted the rotors.

Trickstuff is quite proud of its claims that the Cleg 4 can handle a lot of heat without fading, and that proved true. San Diego has some monstrously steep descents that routinely barbeque brake pads. The Clegs seemed to bite into the rotors harder and get more sensitive as they heated up - which took a little getting used to - after which, they remained consistent as long as they remained warm. No test rider reported fading or a change in the engagement point when we put the screws to the Clegs on the downs. We'd run them on a DH bike without question.
Cleg-4 Disc Brake 2015
We had some noise issues with the rear brake. A mosquito (It's supposed to be a horse fly) may not the best mascot for the Cleg 4.

With the power of the Cleg 4, we never needed two fingers to stop the bike in any situation, so we would get the shorter blades next time. Where the German brake shined most brightly was when negotiating our way down boulders and steep chutes - any situation that required dexterity and precision. At speed on DH trails, where most of the braking events are simple speed checks and skid entries into tight corners, the Clegs did not have any advantage over the Shimano XTR stoppers.

Except for a brief period of grabbiness as the pads and rotors got some heat into them, the Cleg 4 brake feels smoother at the bite point and slightly more controllable than XTR in almost every situation, and while maximum braking power versus lever pressure can only be validated using a calibrated dynamometer, our call is that Clegs are easily on par with XTR for maximum events. All told, the Cleg 4 would have earned our highest marks for a technical trail rider's brake if it were not for the nagging noise reverberating from the rear caliper. Every make of disc brake has produced an occasional howler in our experience. That said, we had used three different brakes and four pad and rotor combinations on the Cannondale and the Cleg 4 was the only howler in the bunch and only in the rear position. It was heaven for the two months when it was silent. Perhaps a switch to sintered metallic pads would have done the trick.


Pinkbike's Take:
bigquotesThe Cleg 4 disc brake pose an unresolvable question among cyclists: why pay more for a handmade product when a mass-produced version of equal performance and quality can be had for significantly less? It's awkward to think of Shimano XTR as being the inexpensive alternative to the Cleg 4, but the MSRP of an M9020 XTR trail brake with a 180-millimeter Freeza rotor is around $380 USD a side, while the Cleg 4 sells for $575. Both feel like a custom-tailored instrument in hand, and both look beautiful in their own style. Both are designed to be easily maintained and either brake will enhance the value and appearance of your mountain bike. The Cleg 4 brakes are a miracle in that they work as well as they do, considering how hard major brands, armed with teams of engineers and manufacturing resources, have sweated to produce competitive braking systems.

The Cleg 4 is the disc brake equivalent of a handmade titanium hardtail from the likes of Steve Potts. Somewhere, a factory is banging out Ti hardtails at the rate of one per hour, and they will have stunning finishes and be perfectly aligned, and I am sure they will ride beautifully. Functionally, the Steve Potts will be about the same, but it has a connection with the man who built it. It is rare and unique and it has details, however small, that will cause its owner to stop and run a finger over the frame, or inspect how a weld transitions from one tube to another long after he or she has taken ownership. Only its owner can judge whether that Steve Potts is worth four times the cost of a factory-made frame. Cleg 4 customers are paying for a similar experience. - RC




See larger and additional images in the review gallery.



MENTIONS: @JuniperBike / @shimano


206 Comments

  • + 115
 "Two Cleg 4 brakes, ready to ride, will cost you $1,150 USD" - f*ck me sideways......
  • + 75
 no thanks, ill stick with my death traps, aka "Elixir 3's"
  • + 197
 The good news.....no standards where changed in with this product
  • + 6
 Were*
  • + 10
 Thanks. F!
  • + 21
 I'd expect it to at least have ti hardware at that price.
  • + 20
 and oriion isn't even one of the "skinflints in the UK".

Shame on you RC. Tarring all those citizens with the one brush.
  • + 1
 haha oh man. Smile
  • + 35
 I'll just use my feet to stop
  • + 38
 Just like the article said, I am impressed that they work as well as they do considering the great lengths that major companies go through to try to create the best product. People will inevitably complain that the price is absurd for a pair of brakes, and I will agree that its a lot, but you're paying a premium for having something beautiful and unique, something that no XTR brake can replace on the right bike. The funny thing is people don't stop and think before they go comparing what they can get thats "similar" for much less; I could own a Timex watch that would be off by no more than a second after many months of use, but I'd prefer (as many do) to spend much more on a mechanical watch. Its far less accurate, costs lots more, but is a beautiful piece of art that requires no batteries. Everyone has their "thing" that they're into, so there is no reason to explain what other products there are that can do the same thing; You can always buy a cheaper suit, car, sound system, etc. For some its not about getting the best deal, its about having a product that means something to them. These brakes would be very much at home on a beautiful handmade ti or steel mountain bike.
  • + 53
 Beautiful is subjective. Those brakes, however are far from beautiful.
  • + 19
 But tapered rotor ends - not a bad idea.
  • + 10
 How many times you wanna hop, turn, stop? How many times you wanna ride your bike in the hills, take spills, get thrills. Now you gotta sit and watch your bike sit against your wall, and why?

The price of parts is TOO DAMN HIGH.
  • + 0
 I dunno. You can get XT brakes F&R for $150 on wiggle. When Shimano disc brakes first came out I think XTR vbrakes were around $150.
  • + 22
 Those levers make my eyes sad.
  • + 7
 I think that I'll start production of ultra mega hi end mtb enduro specific stickers. For only 199,99€/piece you will be able to choose from variety of colors and fonts. In right lower corner I will even add ''Swiss quality'' or ''Swiss made'' so you can be a real badass with 200€ sticker on your brand new 15k Nomad.

Also, I wanted to ask Pinkbike community how they feel about Strava racing specific extremely expensive trail bell? For 35 mm handlebars, of course...
  • + 1
 @vroomvroompartystarter you wanna marry a shoe? I'lll mary you...
  • + 4
 Was about to read stopped at $1150 dollars for 2 stoppers. Way out of my budget even if they are the best brakes to land in the mountain bike world.
  • - 1
 no way id pull my xtr brakes iff my bike and replace it with that,,, they dont look very good for a "handmade" product and to be frank at that sort of price thats the only strike they need, why buy something ugly when we have a market full of good looking kit that works every bit as well, but to be fair the new xtr trail brakes make me think there is no point in saint, they will throw you over the bar with little lever effort from the rider and thats with a 180 rotor, nevermind a 200
  • + 0
 "Move along folks. Nothing to see here", says anyone that didn't just win the lottery.
  • - 2
 Ya and maybe a set of levers that actually look nice those levers look so crappy ill stick with my four piston codes that look way nicer and only cost me 400 bucks I know they are sram but hey it saves 700 bucks for better upgrades and no matter what anyone says about the codes they do work and they work great!!!
  • + 3
 I remember when Brembo tried getting into mountain biking. I think at the time they were about $2500 per side.
  • - 4
flag USMC (Mar 25, 2015 at 7:15) (Below Threshold)
 @D-owen being that I litteally stopped reading the article when I saw the price tag I did not read this bit of information that you pulled from the article. That bit of information changes everything. So instead of using brakes that stop just as well I should buy brakes for the artistic value of them. So glad that was added to the article. Makes my wallet feel so much better that these brakes work as well as other offerings but are worth more because they are artistic.
  • + 4
 I almost NEVER complain about prices for bikes, or bike parts, but HOLY SHIT! $1,150 for a pair?!?!?! WTF are they thinking?

If I am paying that much for brakes, they better come with free lifetime no, questions asked, warranty & brake pads for life & rotors for life. Oh and they better do the braking for me...
  • + 1
 I wonder how many Hope designs and patents this violates?

Oh look, a red anodized DH4 caliper...
  • + 1
 and the last gen shimano reservoir design also.
  • + 1
 @eriksaun You got yourself a deal. Only if you're not a Reebok shoe. Them shits are ugly.
  • + 1
 First test drive, then judgments.
  • + 2
 Holy sh!t. Some rich guy out there is going to buy a $1,150 brakes so he can stop 0.15 seconds faster than me with a 3-year old XT. That's a high value purchase right there.
  • + 1
 Look like magura or Clark's?
  • + 46
 Who 2 finger brakes?!
  • + 8
 Some of us 1-finger brake using the middle finger.
  • + 34
 One finger for the front and one for the rear.
  • + 1
 Whoever it is should stop. As a motocross pro. One finger braking is definitely better for grip and hand fatigue.
  • + 1
 diddo
  • + 26
 @GalenS - I'm pretty sure the wise ol' saying dictates TWO in the front and one in the rear...
  • + 4
 Same, got me wondering who the hell uses 2-finger breaking nowadays with the power the brakes offer...
  • + 5
 I meant to say *ask a motocross pro.
Also ask a trials motorcyclist.
Also ask a doctor to show you a diagram of the hand's muscles. If you use 2 fingers you are using two thirds of the available muscle in your hand to brake, leaving only one third to hold on.
  • + 3
 You win the Internet!
  • - 1
 ^nygaard
  • + 3
 In my country almost all of the riders that don't ride BMX,DH or any aggressive style brake with two fingers. I blame mostly the bike shops for this. I repaired bikes as a hobby for 3 years and switched more riders to one finger braking than I can remember. It's like an instinct hard to get rid of similar to descending with the seat really high.
  • + 1
 I thought I was the only one who middle finger brakes...lol well for most of the time I do anyways. ..
  • + 3
 @taletotell didn' realize u went pro
  • + 3
 That's a shocker!
  • + 2
 Not "professional" so much as I am one of the pros to motocross. The cons include broken bones and burning money the pros are me, and looking cool.
  • + 1
 Respect. Same as DH, being a professional doesn't mean you are necessarily a big name with big sponsors. Th r e are so many talented professionals in DH and Moto who just don't get seen or aren't as well known as everyone in the magazines and videos. Hats off to all the lesser known pros out there in both DH and moto.
  • + 22
 now... i'm not the engineer here, but in 15 years of motorcycle racing i've never once seen the 2-piece caliper option being the stiffer and better performing choice against a monobloc forged one. that was a weird thing to read. but hey they'd know best i guess if they tested it. i'd like to know more about the science/physics behind that.
  • + 6
 "The Cleg 4 calipers are made in halves after Trickstuff’s testing revealed that steel pinch bolts resisted flex measurably better than a one-piece machined or forged caliper body could."

Yeah, I'd like to understand the physics behind that too. Maybe if you torque the living sh!t out of those pinch bolts...maybe then?
  • + 3
 My thoughts exactly! I would bet it influences the howling noise in fact.
  • + 2
 Its just a thought, but could it be due to easy use of different material? The bolts being made of something stiffer and stronger, while still allowing the caliper body to be made out of the optimum alloy for heat dissipation. A handy side effect would be ease of machining... The size of an mtb brake could be a factor too.
Its a possibility that the two piece design could cause the howling though.
  • + 6
 Siffness is the reason why some one-piece calipers have through-bolts.
  • + 9
 In a lengthy tech article about F1 brakes I read a while ago it was shown that the stiffest calipers were bolted monobloc ones (so a one piece caliper threaded through with bolts). Something to do with the tensile strength of the bolts, that material of which may be impractical to use as the entire caliper.
  • + 4
 Exactly karaknic, I think Avid was the first bike company to use through-bolts in one-piece calipers and that's where I first saw the comparative numbers. Where weight and space are considerations, through-bolts make sense.
  • + 1
 right on. didn't consider the overall size of this kind of caliper compared to the normal huge block that is a motorbike one, in the effort for packaging and size/weight considerations. makes sense. even still yea, why not still make it monobloc with some bolts besides being cheaper/easier to manufacture on a CNC?
  • + 1
 Greater tensile resistance in steel bolts than an AL block, even if forged...got it.
  • + 2
 @Sweatypants Perhaps in their testing, the difference between two-piece & one piece with a bolt-through was insignificant enough that it made sense to reduce machining costs instead.
  • + 0
 maybe instead of focusing on through bolts, avid/sram should focus on stopping power and brakes that actually actuate.
  • + 1
 The review says they work great. all that is left is semantic.
  • + 2
 @groghunter

Pretty sure you should fail as a business if you cut corners on machining a 1200 brake set to reduce production costs. When you pay that much, you have the right to expect a fully refined product with no compromises in build quality.

Let alone the fact that they look like a shitty hope knockoff with undeniably tasteless and terrible branding.
  • + 4
 @banjberra so there's some magical dollar value where suddenly you don't care about how much money you make per brake? if it saves them a dollar per brake(it would save them far more, likely) then that's a grand for every 1000 brakes they sell. you think they don't want that 1000 bucks? because their brake costs a lot?

If the difference between two methods of manufacture, affects performance by a small enough amount to not act as deterrent from your target market to buying your product, you go with the cheaper method. that's how you SUCCEED as a business.

I'll agree that they did not factor in how much appearance will deter those in the market for a $1200 pair of brakes. Paraphrasing a comment I made earlier: If I'm getting a great deal on a Nissan Stanza, I'm willing to forgive it looking a bit frumpy. If I'm paying 2+ million for a Bugatti Veyron, I want it to look like a Bugati Veyron, not a milk truck. especially when I can pay 2 million for a fast milk truck, or 300k for say, an Aston DBS(as an analogy for Hope.)
  • + 3
 @banjberra

he's right tho... the difference between a 2 piece vs. a monobloc means buying a run of the mill CNC machine that's cheap compared to buying a 5-axis CNC to do monobloc calipers. you'd reduce your overhead emensely by having a 2 piece design. irrelevant to what you're charging people, that still holds true.

my engineer buddy said its indeed possible that due to the such small amount of material on a mtb caliper compared to a sportbike caliper, the stainless thru bolt may indeed create an overall stiffer design. he also was of the opinion that the difference for this application is probably negligible and wouldn't be noticed by really any rider, and we would need to see the finite element analysis to actually see if its true or not and by how much compared to say a XTR, Hope, etc... and i quote: "like 95% of all other bike industry creations, is mostly a marketing ploy to differentiate themselves" haha
  • + 0
 @groghunter

That's all fine and dandy, but when you are selling a set of brakes for 1200 you are producing a very limited run for a very special and perverted demographic of rich people with exceptionally poor taste. You don't get to care about saving money on the production, because if you cut corners for this demographic, it just won't sell. And it shouldn't because that's a ripoff.
  • + 1
 You keep talking about it like it's cutting corners. It isn't necessarily. Just because there's a difference, doesn't mean there's a PERCEPTIBLE difference. Differences measurable in the lab aren't always significant in the real world.
  • + 2
 yea... and to further that note, do you think anything on a Lexus costs Toyota more to manufacture than stuff on a Toyota or a Scion? they're not being made from space age materials or endangered condor egg shells or the last trees from the amazon rainforest or leather from sabretooth tigers... a vinyl dash is a vinyl dash, carpet is carpet, a steel frame is a steel frame, the bushings on the suspension arms are all the same, etc... the Lexus might have an extra layer of sound deadening, and an extra step of QC to keep it from rattling and squeeking a bunch after a year, but its the same shit. none of its hand built. none of it is using carbon fiber monocoques or body panels or dashes or seats. there are no carbon ceramic racing brakes or magnesium wheels or 800whp engines. there are no carbon kevlar - self lubricating adjustable heim joint suspension arms. somehow they get away with selling the cars for 2x or 3x the money of a Camry or a xB or a Corolla. its PERCIEVED value, and the prestige of ownership, and a little dash of refinement. but now that's marketing's entire purpose isn't it?
  • + 1
 Actually the high end market is where Toyota throws in the stood parking stuff, the safety sensors and the other self driving stuff. It does cost more.
  • + 1
 As does that marketing, it's part of the cost of the car as well. & since part of the value of a Lexus is in it's cachet, that money increases the value of the car you bought, not just how much Toyota made off it: you'll get a higher resale value from a Lexus than a Scion.

If the marketing doesn't work though, all they've done is increase their cost without benefit. Ask Microsoft about Surface, or Blackberry about anything they've done in the last 4 years.
  • + 1
 & to really get into the nitty gritty of why a Lexus costs more, they also use designers for those cars that cost a lot more per hour. It's not just about materials & manufacturing. But I think it'd be hard to argue the same about these brakes, as they are butt ugly, & have some questionable engineering descisions applied to them, like that bolt for the lever pivot.
  • + 2
 the high end market is also where you see enormously more wiggle room because margins are WAY higher at the end of the entire chain. they'll cut you a way bigger deal off a $60k Lexus than they will a $18k Toyota. its certainly not larger margins because of manufacturing or supply chain savings, so then where does that come from?

the little gizmos like parking sensors are not adding up to thousands and thousands of dollars. they cost more sure, but not that much more. not to get too far out into outerspace here, but the difference between a comprably equiped Prius and a CT200h is like $4-5k. same engine and chassis. both with Nav and sunroof. how much you think the little LEDs in the headlights are costing a company with buying power like Toyota, $1 more haha? just sayin...

in the end, these brakes, like everything else... are worth whatever somebody is willing to pay for the percieved value of them. if that's enough that the company is profitting, good for them, if its not, they won't sell, and they won't be. can't beat that factoid at the end of the day... overhead costs be damned.
  • + 2
 The development of self driving technology is hugely expensive. Between software and hardware Also the Prius is artificially cheaper due to subsidies that covered a lot of early costs.
  • + 18
 I find "MSRP: $575 USD per side" to be very amusing when riding Saint caliper with Silver and Unex Ultra cables for much much less than that.

As this product is designed by The Germans and expensive I do believe that Greece is their target market.
  • + 2
 *with Zee lever
  • + 2
 we get shimano XTRs for $399 new. can't beat that. still for those who wants them unique and have the money why not? can you justify the purchase of an Evil bike? what about a nicolai? those expensive aluminum hope cranks? same thing applies here.
  • + 11
 They are going to cover bailing out Greece with the extra money made from these brakes.
  • + 1
 I agree to an extent but those two companies you mentioned aren't charging double what the competition is
  • + 1
 To be honest If I wanted something superexpensive and nicely done I'd just get the hopes
  • + 2
 for the price they should be absolutely perfect, though, including in appearance. If the Bugati Veyron was still as fast, but looked like a milk truck, people would give them a ration of shit. I see no reason that shouldn't be true here. Also, trickstuff makes adapters for i-spec to matchmaker, but their own brakes don't have a method of mounting shifters to them? lame.
  • + 1
 @groghunter sometimes there's cachet in being ugly. For reference look up Lamborghini LM002. Ugly as f*ck, looked like it could be the uncle of a military Humvee, but powerful, super exclusive, and some 20 years ahead of the SUV craze.
  • + 2
 True, but I think there's still worlds away more design in that lambo than these brakes. & at least there's some charm to the lambo. 1st generation Jeep Cherokees were boxy, but they won all sorts of design awards. This brake's design just looks like they simplified things to reduce costs, but then charge more than almost anything on the market.
  • + 12
 As a certified skinflint from the UK, I would like to address all the haters out there. Reviews of these kinds of products, for me, are about product development and interesting innovation. Ok, as a skinflint, I'm not going to buy them even if I win the lottery tomorrow. But surely people must recognise the achievement that these brakes signify? XTRs are pretty damn good brakes, many claiming that the current shimano offerings are the best brakes ever. So if a relatively small company can bring out a brake that beats the XTR in even just one category, surely thats something.

Yes it is something, because its small achievements like this that push technology and make things better. So they have have an exorbitant price tag, what new innovative product doesn't? Just a few years ago people were going "carbon wheels at that price, no chance." Look around and see how many people are paying for carbon wheels now? Admittedly these cleg brakes aren't a whole new way of doing things, but even if shimano look at them and then see how they can improve their own product in one small way, surely that can only be for the better?

They could have made them a little prettier though...
  • + 11
 I love the way you describe the "UK" as serial moaners about the price of products. Just because we like good value products and don't tolerate being ripped off doesn't mean you should point the finger of blame to us.
  • + 16
 The best and the worst thing about people is always the same thing. The golden side of the Isle of Skinflint is that collectively, the UK (one of the strongest MTB markets) is driving down prices and pushing up quality for the rest of us. The roar of discontent is matched by the hum of CNC machines... at factories in the UK that are answering with more affordable products. BTW, "serial moaners" is the best phrase in this comment section.
Cheers!
RC
  • + 9
 Interesting to note most of the comments regarding the magnitude of the price aren't from the U of K.

I must admit though there is something deeply ingrained into my soul that is politely raising a hand up at the back of the room and saying 'What on earth is wrong with that price old boy?!?! I could buy a perfectly decent working 12 year old car for that!".
  • + 3
 Lol very true
  • + 1
 @veero That's probably because most from the U.S. (and other places I'm sure) will bitch and moan on the internet and then buy said expensive product anyway, where maybe the U.K. will bitch and moan at the point of sale and buy the more sensibly priced option. The first method is not very effective at actually reducing prices.

I wonder if the U.S. and elsewhere have developed buying habits like these because of how flooded our market has been with imported goods, often meaning that quality can not be found in the less expensive options. Way back in ancient history when we actually manufactured the majority of our goods, the price between hi and low quality was much closer. Then when we moved away from domestic production, the term "They don't make 'em like they used to" came into existence. Well, they do still make 'em like they used to, but the competition with huge mass production has forced old world domestic manufacturing costs through the roof so they can make enough just to stay in business, and become "boutique" products. They are forced to outsource and produce huge, or keep it small and local and charge huge.

I think markets like the U.S. have developed an innate distrust of the "cheap products", where perhaps markets like the U.K. are more sensible in their buying habits due to a relatively high level of competitively priced domestically produced goods.

It's no secret that most all industries take advantage of this fear, and up-mark their goods to make their products appear of a higher quality in order to attract buyers. I believe cycling is very guilty of this offence. Marketing back in ancient history used to focus a lot more on value and quality. Now we focus on image and perceived quality...Value be damned!
  • + 2
 @Metacomet

My reply was mainly aimed at the comment about the UK skinflints being up in arms about the price and a quick browse through the first comments there were only a small %age from UK based PBers.

The problem with 'they don't make em like they used to' is that far eastern production quality is actually pretty good for the most part so you have to go full-on boutique and fork out the dollar for domestically made products which as you say might have an over inflated price just to achieve a higher perception of quality. Domestic products simply MUST outperform established cheaper alternatives to stand a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding, and I'm sorry but if a £800 set of disc brakes started whining like my old Avid Juicy 5's did after a couple of months, they would be returned and inserted into whoever produced them.

I don't think the general UK populace has a problem with buying cheap tat though. The prevalence of the £1 or 99p shops is disturbing. Sure you can buy almost anything for a pound, but it's a bag of crap, will probably break first time you use it but people flock in those shops in their droves. I think frugal best describes careful and selected second hand purchasing of bike parts by people on here and I guess we/they just don't like having their proverbial pants pulled down by the apparent pricetag on these brakes.
  • + 4
 "The golden side of the Isle of Skinflint"

I think what you mean is, in the UK we are typically better at seeing through marketing bullshit, and don't lap up the crap that is put out every year. Just because it is new and expensive, doesn't make it better.

Subtle difference Wink
  • + 2
 ^^Kudos100. Good point. For example Superstar charging only £699 for a set of 650b AM Carbon wheels that have been independently tested and has received great reviews.......then there is ENVE and £2000 for theirs..........
  • + 2
 Sometimes I wonder if UK pensioners get a free set of Hope hubs and internet access. In the US we just put in on the credit card and pretend it didn't happen. But thanks for helping to drive prices down if that is really happening.
  • + 10
 Not that I'm against new products that improve the riding experience but, $1150 for a set of brakes, another $1200+ for a Push Industries shock, then top it off with some $1800-2500+ carbon wheels and you've spent close to 5K for what amounts to be about 30% of a bike.
Well, looks like it's back to the buy/sell section for me...
  • + 2
 Another 2500 for Di2, 450 for a stealth dropper, 300 for a carbon seat and ect.....
  • + 12
 Don't worry guys Daddy will buy me them for me along with my 2016 tld gear and new demo c Smile
  • + 7
 When I reach Formula 1 status then I'm sure my sponsor will cover, no prob. At that point, I'll need the minute difference in modulation, fade resistance, and power. But, in 2-3 years others will figure how to mass produce the precision and strength and the price will drop and scrubs like me will enjoy the benefits of the pro trickle down effect of top level racing. Thank you Cleg for applying 'pressure' to all others!
  • + 2
 here here!
  • + 6
 Not only do these brakes have the worlds most hated insect as their logo, they also have the least trusted name in the UK politics! Thats before we look at the price and aesthetics.
  • + 5
 I dunno, if they were a free gift, but called the 'Farage', I'd still rather ride brakeless.
  • + 5
 "A mosquito may not the best mascot for the Cleg 4."

@RichardCunningham To your info, I think you'll find that that logo is not a mosquito, but a Cleg (german word for horse fly). Here in Norway, we have a saying that goes something in the neighbourhood of "Hanging on like a Klegg" (nor. spelling of Cleg) and if the germans have something similar, I'd say the name is a very apt name for a brake.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse-fly
  • + 3
 HAHA! Thanks, Now I know.Judging by the cartoon on the caliper, German horse flys must look a lot like mosquitoes.
  • + 1
 The funny thing is: the word Cleg doesn't exist in German. A horse fly is called Bremse, which is the same word as brake in German.
Also "upstart component maker" seems to mean something different: Trickstuff was founded in 2003 and bought the Cleg, which was founded in 2000, in 2007. Hence the 90ies design.
  • + 2
 Haha! Even funnier! Because Bremse means break in norwegian! Big Grin
  • + 4
 "The Cleg 4 brakes are a miracle in that they work as well as they do, considering how hard major brands, armed with teams of engineers and manufacturing resources, have sweated to produce competitive braking systems."

Sram, is that you? Haha!
  • + 4
 Also you describe the XTR as being the benchmark but you have seem to have forgotten about Guide brakes. The Guide brake is now the bench mark in power and modulation and is a better brake than the XT/XTR. I know that because I have had both.
  • + 5
 Matt76^^^ I am with you on SRAM Guides, but worldwide, the majority vote is still Shimano XTR by a strong margin, so it earns the hot seat for this comparison spot.
  • + 1
 Perhaps in the next 12 months or so once opinions and confidence in Sram brakes grow again it may be a different story.
  • + 6
 At that price I'd at least expect that brake to be handmade by Jesus and to be filled with unicorn blood.
  • + 3
 Or you could just buy either some Hope V4s or Formula ROs, both of which wipe the floor with XTRs and are less than half the price of this monstrosity.

Side note: I love the line about Shimano pretending to have a bite point adjustment- on no shimano brake I have ever owned has that stupid screw ever done a goddam thing. Can we just start calling it the "Placebo Screw"?
  • + 2
 I can't understand why this style of levers keeps being produced. The pivot point further from the grip makes it fell less comfortable than the design with it closer. This is the reason I switched to SLX ( BR675) brakes from Formula RX. Even with reach adjustment (modified plunger screw) closer to the bar they didn't feel right.
  • + 2
 Jesus, boys. Lahey's done it again, these brakin things must be rocket appliances at 1150 dollars. gonna have to get my grade 10 and start growing dope again to buy these then maybe lucy will start talkin to me again instead of hnagin out with that cheeseburger eatin bastard Randy. I need these brakes bubs.
  • + 5
 Looks like an old Deore lever
  • + 1
 Hi @RichardCunningham, thorough review, thanks! What's the reason for the Cleg 4 to be compared to an XTR versus a Zee, Saint or other 4-piston brake? Would those be more appropriate if the Cleg 4 was more focused on stopping power...
  • + 1
 Because XTR is the current mass-produced leader in technology, MSRP, and in the media, it makes sense in this case to make a direct comparison. I usually avoid name brand comparisons in reviews unless there is a clear and popular competitor that is in the same market niche and directed at similar customers. Both Cleg and Shimano XTR 9020 are high-performance trail brakes that one would expect to see on "cost is no object" AM/trail bikes.
  • + 2
 I would take Guide RSCs over XTR on any high end AM/trail bike anyday.
  • + 1
 Not convinced.

XTRs are great brakes but when it comes to absolute stopping power Zee or Saint (or Code or perhaps these new Maguras) are the benchmark. When raving about the power of a pair of 1200$ brakes I think it is only reasonable to compare them to the best their competitors offer..at a quarter of the price. Combined with a comparison of weight and overall quality with XTRs it would give a good idea as to whether they're worth the extra cash.

Probably a case of PB politics again though, who will buy them if a review says a pair of 170 euro Zees have more power?
  • + 2
 I bought a pair of Zee's a few months ago, worst-decision-ever! Now my bike stops so fast my track times keep going up! I should go back to my Avids to shave a few seconds... Just kidding, Zee's are freaking awesome!
  • + 1
 Oh btw I meant 'Guide', not 'Code'..

Caiovk: how do you think they measure up against the Saints when it comes to raw stopping power?
  • + 1
 @bonkywonky - Not sure, I have never ridden Saints! But I read somewhere that the Saints callipers are the same as the Zee's, their difference lies on the external adjustment only, but I may be wrong...
  • + 1
 Wait, wasn't RC's last article about spending 33% less on complete bikes with non name brand parts that perform the same, and now it's just great to go spend 51% more on boutique brakes that don't perform any better? Am I missing something here? I'm getting mixed signals...
  • + 5
 He says they aren't any better than mass produced brakes and that some people just like boutique brand stuff. What about that is confusing?
  • + 0
 @taletotell, nothing is confusing in that statement alone. Sure if you have money and like boutique stuff, go buy it. I just find it funny that he's reviewing a brake that's more expensive than XTR when his last article was bemoaning how expensive the industry is getting... That's where I'm getting the mixed signals.
  • + 2
 Personal feelings aside, he is a reviewer. It is his job. A mechanic might think Chevy sucks, but that doesn't mean he won't fix then to pay the bills. RC serves a population that is eclectic in both income and taste. He tries to put personal feelings aside impede to serve all of them.
  • + 3
 who cares if they take dot 5.1... i put that in my code-r's too.

Those calipers look awesome but the lever/body is another story.
  • + 2
 My same thoght. Love the look of the caliper. Body is pretty ugly. I'm a fan of the billet machined aesthetics vs forged aesthetics.
  • + 2
 The whole "These have 5.1 DOT fluid!" Is an absolute joke.
Just order new brakes dry/without fluid and you should be fine to run 5.1 assuming it's within the manufacturers recommendations of acceptable fluids.
  • + 1
 Those who can justify spending 4 times factory price on a ti frame do it because, as the review said, of the connection you have with the man who built it, which, if you have the money to subscribe to that attitude, comes from the way it rides, the way it looks, the way it feels, whatever... point is, not really sure how you can get that with a brake... it's kind of like saying you have a connection with the Taiwanese dude who made your shifter paddle. It's a fucking shifter.
  • + 5
 Why do people buy a Ferrari or a Lamborghini?
  • - 2
 @theteaser Because they like wasting money on pointless shit?
  • + 3
 Pointless for you, not for them.
  • + 2
 @theteaser because they can! Its as simple as that. and I dont think its "wasting money" and pointless shit if it makes you unique and at the same time happy with what you have. so these are expensive. they do make hairgel with gold bits that cost more than these you know.
  • - 3
 These brakes will not get you laid... /drops the mic
  • + 0
 FYI guys I wrote a different comment then actually read the review and edited it to something completely different, and theteaser was most likely responding to my first comment. Sorry :/
  • + 4
 The evil spud has a point. My deore brakes are total chick magnets, and my old elixer CR's made it hard to ride through the woods without naked women jumping all over me, but these brakes seem to draw no women at all. Only wild turkeys with the warbling mating call they emit.
  • + 3
 Everyone knows the extra 6mm of SRAM Boost is what attracts the ladies.
  • + 1
 Nah dude it's the 10mm in the front, gotta give em that stiff front end
  • + 1
 For all guys not realizing that it is difficult to post right after comment I was referring to ;]
Guys buy Ferraris and Lambos to get laid....those brakes will not get you any "pump action".

...although my Saint brakes attract women looking for bling-bling on those golden elements...
  • + 1
 It should be noted that the Euro price from Trickstuff on the Cleg4 brakes is €428. When we starting bringing the Trickstuff products into the US late last summer, the Euro was about 20% higher. The Euro has since been dropping like a rock and as a result we've been re-evaluating the US pricing on many of our products that we bring in from Germany. As a result, pricing on the Cleg4's will actually be a bit lower this spring. Yeah, they're still pricey, but once you ride them...

Thx - Kenny Roberts
Radsport USA
www.radsportusa.com
  • + 1
 Current USD price on the Cleg4 brakes is $499.
store.radsportusa.com/product_p/cleg4.htm
  • + 2
 THE Kenny Roberts?? God of GP racing in 1980? Go slow to go fast? On PB? No way...
  • + 3
 No, not THAT Kenny Roberts - although having worked in the bike and moto industries for 20+ years not the first I have been asked.
  • + 1
 It's cool. Got me to check out your website!
  • + 4
 I suggest reading this review with an extra pair of undies as you'll need them after seeing the price.
  • + 0
 Just shat my pants and I'm at work.... here comes the boss..... I'm screwd. Anyone looking for a business analyst who surfs Pinkbike all day? FML.
  • + 3
 I still use old avid juicy ultimate and original code. They stop me and have modulation I like. why would I change?
  • + 3
 I'll just buy another pair of hopes and have money left over for Gas and beer.
  • + 2
 am i missing something here?...im running the old hope dh4 calliper and there almost identical?http://s744.photobucket.com/user/gadro/media/CIMG2581-1.jpg.html
  • + 2
 "why pay more for a handmade product when a mass-produced version of equal performance and quality can be had for significantly less?" - Exactly that. Also, they're ugly!
  • + 2
 " and not the problematic DOT 5 that probably should be abandoned by the industry as a whole."

Eh? I can't think of an MTB brake that has ever used DOT 5?
  • + 1
 Nobody use DOT5 except old car owners and army.
  • + 4
 'skinflints in the UK?'

are you taking the piss?
  • + 14
 It's like my (English) Dad's favourite joke "How do you tell when a BA jet has landed? The whining continues after they turn the engines off".
  • + 2
 I think RC may well have identified one of the central traits of us Brits there..... Deore brakes on my bikes unless I push the boat out and go for SLX!!!
  • + 6
 I ride XTs and love the feel, ease of maintenance and reliability. I also love looking at things like Cleg brakes. Things of beauty that one day may adorn my bike but most likely not. Anyone who thinks they cost too much doesn't have to buy them.
  • + 3
 @Super7 yerp derp! I agree with you. so much hate for an expensive product. you dont have to buy them really stick with what you have. but if you can and you want to be different in the trail, go for it! so much hate for being expensive, I just dont get it.
  • + 4
 I'll stick with my hope e4 race evos that huhummm come with ti hardware Smile
  • + 0
 Price seems very reasonable. These will go nicely with my new $1200 Push rear shock and $3500 SB6 (crack!) frame. Hmm, seems I'm missing something..... Oh yeah, and my $3000 Enve wheels.

If I ever show up at the trailhead rocking any of the above, please beat the sh*t out of me immediately.
  • + 4
 90s throw back!
  • + 2
 those brake levers remind me of the clarks skeletal...not good. and for that price id rather have a set of zee brakes
  • + 1
 argh, the Clarkes Skeletals. I'm ashamed to admit I fell for some bullshit review claiming they were as good XTs and bought myself as set. I'm sure the brakes preformed well in the mind of the engineer who built them, but I found that simply willing my bike to stop was more effective than pulling the fucking lever
  • + 1
 they felt as wooden as noahs arc, fitted 1 and never used it cos for some reason they were covered in oil from the purchase up at crc (brake, pads and rotor) so ditched it straight away and raided my flat, wallet etc for spare change, and found i had just enough for a new deore brake... to which im stil using to this day
  • + 1
 On sale for 204$cnd per side saint + rotor on chainreaction......Got this setup on my bike and it works deadly! never had a problem Smile
  • + 1
 Tapered rotors… No thanks, mine are sharp enough already. I reckon same end could be achieved more safely if the bottom of the brake pad material was tapered instead.
  • + 1
 Suggested tagline for this product: "These brakes offer a 12% improvement over Shimano Deore...... and at a mere 12x price differential." Um, sold.
  • + 1
 Ain't nothing wrong with being a skinflint! Frees up money to spend on beer... Jokes aside, I'm not buying a brake with the same name as our deputy prime minister!
  • + 0
 I've never got on with brakes that have the lever pivot so far away from the bar. When braking it feels like it's pulling my index finger towards the stem as the lever gets closer to the bar.
  • + 3
 Master cylinder looks abit early 90s aka hideous
  • + 3
 I'll stick with shimano, hope, formula, hayes or even avid at that price.
  • + 11
 Or all 5 haha
  • + 1
 Yep I'll take one set from each manufacturer and have spare change for a trip to freaking New Zealand.
  • + 2
 I really really really doubt that owning this brakes can be compared to owning a frame made by steve potts.
  • + 1
 $1000 brakes with lever that should be adjusted with a screwdriver?
As well as unique spare part required?

Why some one should use them except of "Road Show" ?
  • + 2
 I'm sorry but those levers are ugly af
  • + 1
 Hopes can be had in any color from some vendors on the Pinkbike buy and sell. Looks better, works just as good, costs less.
  • + 1
 You will never find these on a stock dirt bike. Uber parts for the discriminating mtb world.
  • + 1
 I got formula c1. Dam fine brake, trouble free. I also got shimano xt. Also a dam fine brake. No need to over spend...
  • + 1
 they are deranged for $1,150 for brakes... do you get a limited lifetime of reach arounds for that price too?
  • + 2
 as soon as biking gets to the same cost as cancer I'm tappin out.
  • + 2
 The hose routing looks cleaner?! Hmmm...
  • + 1
 "575 per wheel" "first year product" i mean get that its hand made but jeeeeeze
  • + 2
 more than $1000 for brakes..
i ride a bike bro..not the F1 cars..
  • + 1
 RC. Do you agree with the state ment. Two pieces of metal bolted together is stronger than one piece that is cold forged?
  • + 1
 Easy to bleed, but just how much is the cost of this "F1" brake fluid.
  • + 2
 they look like fossils
  • - 3
 Well, I'll stick with my 3 year old SLX. But thanks for filling us in on the "far too overpriced for anyone who isn't a brain surgeon" kit anyway. I truly couldn't give a shit about these brakes and probably never will, don't even try defend them with how they're so "worth it" when you could pay a fraction of the price for some nice Hope brakes with all the added "bling" features. No wonder this website has gone to shit.
  • + 0
 i don t know if they have a good designer ugly make . i stick on a power of sram guide rsc .
  • + 0
 Ha...my Juicy 7/Code frankenbrake will do just fine. No need to spend more on a set of brakes than a frame.
  • + 1
 Word. How's that for some perspective?
  • + 1
 Just what the industry needs, more cost-is-no-object objects...
  • + 1
 Vintage Brakes ?! Haha lol
  • - 3
 SKIP it. Nothing new. Blah blah blah... Blah Blah Blah... OH its more expensive than XTR. Blah blah blah. Thanks Richard for review. Who will buy those at that price, that's the question to be answered - new frame anyone?
Hand made things - sure... i will have a hand made hamburger and a beer. Ha-ha-ha. We can afford those.
Did some one said - ugly? I say so too...
  • + 1
 Could they possibly be the Brembo of the Mtb world...
  • + 1
 Brembo came into mtb then left. Their shit was expensive too
  • + 1
 also... brembo RCS19 is the best thing that's ever happened to motorcycles. so i wouldn't even be mad if they came back.
  • + 1
 I genuinely had to check it wasnt april the 1st....
  • + 1
 1150$ no thanks i prefer my shimano....hahaha
  • - 1
 I stopped reading after you generalised the entire UK nation as skinflints... Jeremy Clarkson can do casual racism but when you try it just looks unprofessional. Blank Stare
  • + 4
 Instead they can now generalise us as miserable buggers with no sense of humour.
  • + 1
 Brits are an entirely new race? well that has to count for something.
  • - 2
 That's why I put "Nation" not race

If I said that all Americans were far dibetuc inbreds, you'd go loopy.
...
  • + 1
 Well said he an old fart like me, only I know when to retire
  • + 2
 I would've but then he tried to justify it, by making light of it.... great example being set here. Well done.
  • + 3
 Im a miserable skinflint and quite happy to be highlighted as such....
  • + 1
 is a skinflint the same as a skinflute?
  • + 1
 That's a nice brake.. Never mind I seen the price
  • + 0
 Sigh....Shimano XT.....got it?.....Sigh....
  • + 0
 HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
  • + 0
 Damnz themz ugly

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