UCI to Consider Lowering Female Transgender Athletes’ Maximum Testosterone Threshold

Nov 6, 2019
by Sarah Moore  
Best result yet for Kate Weatherly taking home third.
Kate Weatherly is a transgender woman who has achieved several strong international results since her transition. She's currently recovering from a broken neck sustained at Mont-Sainte-Anne this year.


The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) has released a statement announcing that they are considering lowering the maximum threshold of Testosterone that competitors can have from 10nmol/L to below 5nmol/L to be eligible to compete in the female category.

This statement comes following the UCI's recent meeting with a group of International Federations in Lausanne on transgender athletes’ eligibility in competitive sports. The goal of the working group was for the international federations to "draft their own transgender eligibility rules and establish a medical and scientific network to promote research in the area of transgender athletes."

Earlier this month, experts from relevant disciplinary fields, representatives of the International Paralympic Committee, the International Tennis Federation, World Rowing, the International Golf Federation, and the International Association of Athletics Federations, and cis and trans athlete representatives had an initial meeting. After a day of presentations and discussions, the IIAF group agreed on the following:

• They remain committed to fair and equal opportunity for female athletes
• The inclusion of trans women within the female category should be promoted with meaningful eligibility standards, provided it does not create intolerable unfairness
• Rules intended to accommodate trans athletes should be sports-specific and designed by the relevant international federation.
• Testosterone is the primary known driver of the performance gap between males and females and serum Testosterone is regarded as an acceptable proxy to distinguish male from female athletes.
• If a federation decides to use serum Testosterone for this purpose, it should adopt a fixed threshold at or below 5nmol/L for eligibility for the female category.
• More research is needed on this issue and should be encouraged by sports federations.


The full report of the initial meeting can be found here.

After the subsequent meeting with their working group, the UCI the statement below.


UCI Statement:

The consensus drawn up by the working group will enable the UCI to take into consideration, in line with the evolution of our society, the wish of concerned athletes to compete while guaranteeing as far as possible equal chances for participants in women’s competitions.

The text concerned will be submitted for approval by the UCI Management Committee with a view to application in 2020. The UCI will adapt its regulations in accordance with the new guidelines.

The UCI shares the conclusions reached by the participants, who included representatives of transgender and cisgender athletes. The conclusions notably state that if a Federation decides to use serum testosterone to distinguish between male and female athletes, it should adopt a maximum threshold of 5nmol/L for eligibility for the female category.


The adoption of these guidelines has not been approved by the UCI Management Committee, but if passed they will go into effect for the 2020 season. Kate Weatherly, currently the most prominent transgender racer in mountain biking, is supportive of the proposed changes.

bigquotesI think it’s a good change, as I’ve said in previous interviews and discussions the old policy’s testosterone limit was really too high, since cisgender female athletes usually have 0.5-2.5 n/mol of testosterone, and 10n/mol is much higher, 5n/mol is still high but it’s a step in the right direction. It won’t be an issue for me as I have completed blocked testosterone and usually test at around 0.4 n/mol so still much lower than the top levels.

I won’t be competing next year due to the recovery time my neck requires, however I would be able to if I desired.
Kate Weatherly


The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are complex. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.

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640 Comments

  • 1464 159
 How about just having women born as men not compete against natural born women at all. Not hating on transgender people, just saying that this is only fair to natural born women.
  • 129 55
 comment deleted in 3....2....1....
  • 146 30
 Exactly what I was thinking. Thumbs up!
  • 137 19
 well how am I going to win anything now?
  • 70 13
 Also Bone density should be taken in consideration.
  • 118 118
 I second this, what if I'm a man and since my sense of personal identity change yesterday and feel like a woman now, can I compete now with the ladies out there already? I think this will be unfair to all the natural born women.
  • 101 17
 @ibis09: Yea, you can compete as soon as your testosterone drops below 5nmol/L.
  • 85 14
 Could not agree more. There is more and more of this happening now a days, and people breaking women records that have stood for years. I don't think that they should be completely robbed of their opportunity to compete, maybe a different category or something like that.
  • 359 17
 Totally agree. Its simple biology two different sexes very different set of genetics. Its a political issue about rights of a person who should be able to live the way they want and have equal rights to employment etc.. completely support that issue. You have to draw the line though in spoort where there is 2 distinct biological categories based on xx and xy chromosomes. Men compete against men and women compete against women. When a man comes along and politicicises it and claims they identify as a woman.... thats not biology thats psychology turned into a political issue . Trying to put political correctness on a a clear biological differentiation is a complete joke. Anyone who thinks it's fair for a person born a man to compete with a woman in a biological physical manner is completely insane. In my opinion the testosterone level issue is completely over simplifying the biological differences between a biological man and biological woman in physical competition. People in the UCI who come up with this stuff allowing men to compete with women physically havent studied the differences in biological men and women and just bullied into some sort of non sensical politically correct rubbish and are trying to hide behind some over simplified standard using testosterone levels.
  • 72 43
 Probably because they could be sued for anti-discrimination by the #LGBTQ human rights lawyers. Whip
  • 79 6
 @endurocat: And pelvic bone anatomy, muscle fibre density, limb length, lung capacity, etc, etc.
  • 25 7
 Ab-so-fricken-lutely!
  • 20 4
 @ronan: Well said and I completely agree.
  • 53 15
 I full agree as a woman that transgenders racing in the woman’s field is not fair or equal in any way. I think UCI making this move is great.
  • 78 4
 @alanabailey: i imagine almost all female racers feel the same, but don't say anything for fear of being labelled transphobic. i think one pro racer already had to backtrack her comments cuz she got tore up for it.
  • 19 3
 @jalin: Totally agree. I recently had a discussion with a co-worker who was upset that Rachel McKinnon broke the women's record. Initially I thought she was being discriminatory but she explained that her frustration was due to achievements being taken away from women. I felt that was a fair point and it definitely made me think differently about the situation.
  • 82 4
 Forget testosterone for a second and explain to me how you create a level-playing field when these facts are baked into us all at birth:

Visual acuity has consistently been shown to be better in males (Burg, 1966; McGuinness, 1976; Ishigaki and Miyao,1994; Abramov et al.,2012a). Although this finding has also been observed in other mammals (Seymoure and Juraska, 1997), some have speculated that sex differences in visual acuity in humans are related to the roles that men and women played in early human hunter–gatherer societies, in which males may have been required to be able to identify prey or threats at greater distances (Silverman and Eals, 1992; Sanders et al., 2007; Stancey and Turner, 2010; Abramov et al., 2012a).
  • 14 2
 Came here to say this. I also have nothing against transgender gals but it's only thing that is fair.
  • 14 3
 Most sports fans only pay attention to male sports, so if men get to compete against women then maybe people will start paying attention to women’s sports.

(Obviously I’m being sarcastic...but some people don’t know what that is)
  • 2 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: valid info and super vital in this sport
  • 42 2
 I asked a few transgender people about this and they agreed as well. They thought a separate category is the only solution that makes sense but its not ideal due to lack of participants... tricky subject. Oh and heal up Kate!
  • 3 11
flag richierich1966 (Nov 6, 2019 at 18:44) (Below Threshold)
 ????
  • 15 6
 @fullfacemike: Oh yeah just get a hormone therapy to qualify.

This is all crap! UCI should have and open category for them. Hey have nothing against them I just want an even playing field for natural born women. That's it.
  • 44 12
 @ibis09: You don't just show up and say, "Hey, doc, how about a hormone therapy?" and go home another gender. It's a process that takes years and carries with it a whole host of consequences - some positive and some negative. It's not something you just do on a whim to place higher next season.
  • 7 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: thanks for including references, most comments on here are based on 'something I read on the interweb'.
  • 6 0
 @fullfacemike: to be fair, u did say that anyone could compete as long as their T was below a certain level...
  • 8 1
 I tend to agree that men shouldn't be able to become female and compete in female only sports. Even with hormone therapy there are still genetic advantages. But I don't think this is as cut an dry as folks want to make it. From what I have read there are issues with chromosomal testing relating to genetic defects, then you also have people that are with both male and female genetic markers. In this instance what if you are born female but naturally make excess testosterone due to genetic defect? Should you have to take hormones that block your naturally occurring testosterone?
  • 60 8
 damn straight.

I'm a total libertarian - do whatever the hell you want with your life, I really don't care and will fight tooth and nail for your right to do it even if I don't agree with it. However, this is a separate issue.

Warms my heart that most pinkbikers are on the same page about this. The media seems to tell us that if the idea of someone with XY chromosomes competing against your wife/sister/mother/female friends doesn't sit right with you, you are a terrible and bigoted person.
  • 15 15
 I'm so triggered and offended and all of those sorts right now.
  • 2 0
 @ronan: Perfectly summarized explanation. Thank you.
  • 1 0
 Was about to post exactly that.
  • 4 5
 Man up and ride with your bad self.
  • 42 1
 Agreed & Thank You!

But I’ll point out this; we don’t see any women transitioning to men then coming in to to dominate and set new records. No intentional disrespect or hate here either, but the obviousness can’t be ignored.
  • 3 0
 @ronan: Totally agree!!!
  • 14 7
 @fullfacemike: amazing how many people just read like, one word of the headline, and then scroll directly to the comments to be wrong and mad. lmao
  • 16 13
 @savagelake: yeah homie, but it takes years of HRT to get to those levels. You have to get to that level, and maintain it for a year prior to competition. That's going full girl, and (assuming this hypothetical person is a cis man transitioning purely for the cheatin) probably a really goddamn stupid way to give yourself gender dysphoria. As a cis person. Stuck in the wrong-gendered body that you made for yourself.
  • 133 110
 Please, I beg you, all of you, to do your research before commenting on this. It's not as easy as that and it doesn't have to do with hate but with lack of information.

1. If a transgender person goes through puberty, yes, this person has the advantages of a developed male body (the bone density and muscle mass you're all preaching). But reality is, most people of the transgender community start taking hormone blockers the moment they notice puberty changes because the physical changes are the one thing they DON'T want, before they can start the real hormone therapy (like Kate did).
2. The difference of power-driven sports (lifting, soccer, and mtb too) and endurance-driven sports (running) is the key factor here, because the advantage shows the most in power-driven disciplines. This is I why I (imho) disagree with transgender athletes in powerlifting, who already went through puberty. But in mountainbiking, those athletes would be automatically excluded with this new ruling, as they won't go under the 5 n/mol mark.
3. I agree with the change of the rule, like Kate already stated, natural hormone levels are under the planned rule of 5 n/mol and hormone levels of transitioned athletes, who didn't hut puberty, as well
4. All the information aside, one emotional point: I am a cis gender female so this shouldn't bother me, but taking away a desire or dream of a person who did not choose to be born in the wrong body is dicrimination and this is why this solution is not expedient. Imagine having to compete in the female category because you were born with a vagina, and you don't get a chance to prove that you don't belong here. That is discrimination.

Educate, don't hate.

Here are the sources:
Interview Kate: www.wideopenmountainbike.com/2019/07/kate-weatherly-new-zealand-downhill-mountain-biker-interview

Real Clear Science's article on typical male and female testosterone levels: www.realclearscience.com/articles/2019/04/19/what_is_a_normal_level_of_testosterone_110949.html

Serum androgen levels and their relation to performance in track and field: mass spectrometry results from 2127 observations in male and female elite athletes: bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/17/1309

Testosterone dose-response relationships in hysterectomized women with or without oophorectomy: effects on sexual function, body composition, muscle performance and physical function in a randomized trial: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24281237

Effects of sex steroid hormones on regional fat depots as assessed by magnetic resonance imaging in transsexuals: www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/ajpendo.1999.276.2.E317

Body composition, bone turnover, and bone mass in trans men during testosterone treatment: 1-year follow-up data from a prospective case-controlled study (ENIGI): www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/papers/25550352

NHS guide to hormone therapy for trans people: www.teni.ie/attachments/9ea50d6e-1148-4c26-be0d-9def980047db.PDF

Fiber Type Composition of the Vastus Lateralis Muscle of Young Men and Womenhttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/002215540004800506

Morphometric analysis of normal skeletal muscles in infancy, childhood and adolescence: www.jns-journal.com/article/0022-510X(8Cool 90227-4/pdf

Interpreting laboratory results in transgender patients on hormone therapy: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24332725

Transsexuals and competitive sports, Gooren & Bunck: eje.bioscientifica.com/downloadpdf/journals/eje/151/4/425.pdf

Preservation of volumetric bone density and geometry in trans women during cross-sex hormonal therapy: a prospective observational study: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25377496

Or the short version in a video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=02FCYz8bOo8
  • 46 6
 @zonaec: As far as I know, Kate began hormonal therapy after puberty. If that's so, the video you shared proves the point of most of the people here...
  • 51 37
 "Born in the wrong body".... How can you be born in the wrong body? In order for something to be wrong it would imply you had a choice or say so in the matter. Classic!
  • 106 7
 @zonaec: Diagreement does not equal hate.

I have no hate for transgendered people and a lot of empathy for what is clearly a difficult experience. That doesn't mean I think they should be allowed to compete against women.

I have no lack of biology knowledge and I'm not clear on how any of your links support the idea that a level playing field can be created between biological men and women.

While studies can show that trans-women lose some muscle mass or bone-density, that doesn't at all prove that it puts them perfectly in line with women.

But more damning to your point is the the fact that you can cherry-pick as many variables as you want, but there are 100s of differences minor and major.

We are sexually dimorphic and these changes begin in utero. You make puberty out to be this major event, which clearly it is, but it's hardly the whole story. Go to a children's running race and even as children, no one would advocate for running the boys and girls together. The girls would get smoked.

It any of this fair? No, of course not. I don't take any pleasure in pointing out the obvious, that men are stronger than women. But I also don't pretend that what is obvious, common knowledge for millennia, and supported by biological science is somehow wrong.
  • 83 1
 @zonaec: I commend your lucid arguments and great depth of research, however:

Generalizing the situation by stating "most people of the transgender community start taking hormone blockers the moment they notice puberty changes" is absolutely misleading.

At what age would a medical professional be willing to prescribe such potent therapy? 12 or 13 for boys? As early as 10 or 11 for girls? Do they have the emotional and psychological foundation to make such a life-changing decision at that age???

Furthermore, if you have ever watched 5-6 year olds play soccer, the chromosomal differences are already evident. If you have observed a household of young boys and another of same-ages girls, the differences in type and physicality of play are also clear. They continue to carry the history and learning of those activities with them regardless of later surgical or hormonal therapy.

My point is that physical and developmental differences begin LONG before the realization of any gender identity. Little boys may wear their mothers heels, dresses, and jewelery, but they will still tussle and wrestle like boys do.

Human beings are NOT gender-interchangeable masses of moldable putty until the sudden onset of puberty.
Chromosomal males begin to gain physical advantages over chromosomal females from shortly after birth. To deny that takes one down the path of alternate facts.
  • 3 1
 @ronan: very well said. you nailed it bro!
  • 6 10
flag Pikasam (Nov 7, 2019 at 4:26) (Below Threshold)
 @endurocat: what? This has nothing to do with anything. I'm a older cis female and I have bone density off the charts - because I've weightlifted all my life, not because I was born a dude.
  • 7 0
 Here here and make it an equal playing field they must all ride Transition bikes .@ibis09:
  • 9 1
 The article wasn’t clear if the testosterone levels apply to all women or just transgender women. What about a woman with naturally occurring high testosterone?
  • 21 12
 @zonaec: Much of what you've said is simply unscientific. The whole idea of "being born in the wrong body" has no basis in observable science.
  • 3 0
 @lognar: Separate issue.
  • 6 0
 @endurocat: a whole host of variables should be taken into account. Not just testosterone.
  • 9 6
 @trialsracer: I’m a total libertarian too. They should just end the gender classes in favour of a single inclusive category that is open to all. May the best human win!
  • 3 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: Love the citations, and this is only ONE of the factors that prove that equality is a false god.
  • 21 8
 @zonaec: So you're arguing that it's acceptable medically, morally, and socially to transition minors, some of them extremely young?

Interesting flex.
  • 5 0
 @ronan: I have never quite found the right words to explain my perspective on this issue until reading yours. Very well put!
  • 5 0
 Fiction@zonaec:
  • 7 5
 @ibis09: Please don't speak for me. Or on behalf of any females for that matter.
  • 10 7
 They're is 1 simple test to see if trans athletes want to "play sports" or do they want to "compete to win".

Gather 3 athletes. 1 elite Male, 1 elite female & 700 elite trans athletes. Set 2 $10 million prizes at the registration booth and tell the trans person they must pick one of the other two athletes to compete against for the money in an unspecified athletic event.

See which one they pick.
  • 2 0
 Typo above
  • 33 0
 @zonaec: I get where you are coming from, and it's a good place- but disagree that it is discrimination. It is unfortunate, for sure- to want to be a different gender, and then not be able compete. It's part of the deal. Switch your gender, ride your bike all you want. Be your best self. Compete with yourself, but realize that no matter how much you want to be female, at one point, you weren't- and that conveys an unfair advantage against those who were born biologically female.
  • 36 14
 Man Identifying As 6-Year-Old Crushes Game-Winning Homer In Tee-Ball Championship
June 6th, 2017


AUBURN, CA—Local 36-year-old man Nate Ripley, who identifies as a six-year-old, “absolutely crushed” a game-winning homer at a local tee-ball game and won the championship for his team Monday evening, reports confirmed.


Ripley reportedly walked up to the plate in the bottom of the 6th, pointed his bat toward the left-field wall looming 130 feet in the distance, and let her rip, sending the ball rocketing over the fence and into a parking lot as the fans cheered and his coach yelled out, “Attaboy, Nate! Good job, bud!”

His team, the Lil’ Padres, attempted to hoist him up on their shoulders in celebration of their great victory over the favored Tiny Tigers, but were unable to pick up the large 230-pound man.

Ripley’s feat comes at the end of a momentous tee-ball season, in which the self-identified six-year-old absolutely shattered every record set prior to that point. With a 1.000 batting average, 52 home runs, and an incredible showing at first base, second base, shortstop, third base, and pitcher, the man is being called an inspiration to other six-year-olds everywhere.

“I’m just proud to be here with my team. It’s all for the love of the game,” an emotional Ripley told reporters while enjoying an orange slice and juice box after the championship. “I couldn’t have done it without my team.”
  • 23 28
flag crysvb (Nov 7, 2019 at 8:13) (Below Threshold)
 but then where do transgender women fit in? they wouldn't.. doesn't seem fair. as a woman, if someone has the same levels as i do and identifies as a woman, it doesn't bother me that they would be in my class. f*cking power to em, it's almost 2020 people
  • 6 2
 Thank you @zonaec:
  • 5 0
 Its a complicated issue.
  • 32 29
 @zonaec: “ I am a cis gender female“

No, you’re a female who’s bought into the clown world labeling of gender.
  • 11 3
 @ibis09: I'm 45 but according to my female coworkers I could identify as 30 if I wanted to.
  • 23 6
 @crysvb: are you an elite level national champion with a 6 figure contract on the line? Have you trained your entire female life to be the absolute best woman in your sport?

You don't have to answer since you're obviously not. So you can say that righteous stuff all you want can't you.
Trans simply need their own category. If a trans doesn't want to race a trans...then go be butthurt.

What do you do for a living?
  • 13 5
 @bizutch: LOL, i'm just giving my own personal opinion just like all these other NON elite riders in the pinkbike comments section. downvote me if you don't like it.
  • 7 0
 @ronan: I found an article that implies the same thing that you have argued in your first sentence. Men and women are different in a lot more ways than we can imagine. Just because there is no evidence of where the differences are currently and how they affect athletic performance doesn't mean that this information isn't coming. This article alone opens up a whole new host of questions.
www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2019/07/18/genome-differences-men-women

Just as a side note: I do not care what people do to/with their own bodies in their spare time and with their money. Their body belongs to them and so does their income. Plus I've seen far far far worse (obesity, heart problems, breathing problems, etc.) done with less... so to each their own as long as they aren't pushing it on other people...

On the other hand, I think that competing at such a high level with the changes made through these decisions should not be taken lightly. At the core, each individual is genetically still their first sex. It's not just about having an X or Y but how the body uses these differences in the expression of other genetic information. Individuals may be able to take hormones to suppress certain characteristics that they deem unfit for their preferred gender, but these changes are mostly for outward appearances. Genetics and gender/sex cannot be completely controlled with current medicine. So to say that suppressing certain aspects of an athlete and allowing them to compete with the opposing gender is fair is not completely correct until we understand each difference, or create medicine that completes transitions individuals to the genetic level.

Also, there are more than two biological categories (although rare) so this way would most likely not work either... www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
  • 7 2
 @togood2die: Absolute insanity isn’t it?

Also here’s the facts in easily digestible video format from someone at the forefront of the issue.

fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton
  • 19 13
 @jclnv: "Clown world"... spotted the alt-right, leave that trash out of here please.
  • 4 13
flag CentralVTMTB (Nov 7, 2019 at 9:36) (Below Threshold)
 @zonaec: thanks for sharing this information. I haven't read it all, but it is enlightening to read.

If she was a consistent winner in all the races, I would say people might have a point of unfair advantages. She's struggled to compete in the field, in my opinion. I don't see her on the podium really at all. So i think the comments here are just BS.
  • 22 8
 @highfivenwhiteguy: It’s nothing to do with the alt-right (whatever that actually is?). However, it’s the perfect term to sum up the many facets of ideologue group think, like 100 genders, men competing in women’s sports, Islam being the religion of peace etc.

Look into it and you’ll see the same people believing in the same anti factual nonsense. Clown world perfectly describes the alternate reality these people live in.
  • 1 14
flag reverend27 (Nov 7, 2019 at 9:46) (Below Threshold)
 @highfivenwhiteguy: good eye. Alt right white trash doesn't get a spot at the table they eat outside with the dogs.
  • 12 1
 @fullfacemike: according to the link below: "The average testosterone level for young men is 24.2 nmol/L and for women around 0.6 nmol/L."

why would anyone be allowed to compete w/ 5nmol or 10nmol? Shouldn't they be closer to .6?

interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field

I wonder how Floyd Landis' testosterone levels compare for the infamous ride to Morzine.

Should biologically female racers be allowed to dope to get to the 10 nmol (current) limit
  • 3 0
 @jclnv: Great article. Thanks for posting .
  • 13 1
 @zonaec: I’ve come to realise that people who tell other other people online to ‘do your research’ are usually full of sh*t
  • 11 7
 @jclnv: I understand that there is a great deal of craziness in the world right now. My point was that the term "clown world" has been associated, though not exclusively, with white supremacists and ultra-conservatives as a way to describe what they see as the absurdity of progressive ideas. By using the term you appear to identify with the group that coined it, and just like super left-wing idiots should leave their baggage out of this debate the same goes for super-right wing baggage. Perhaps this was not your intention but with nothing more to go on than your username, the flag next to your name, and what you said that was my understanding. Apologies if that was not the case.

Back on topic. I agree, aspects of the gender debate are insane, as are some of the physical ramifications behind it. A recent example was the gender neutral bathroom debate. It became a big deal for what I observed as no reason, the solution for the perceived problem was simple and actually saves establishments money. A local brewery has one large bathroom but no urinals, all stalls with doors. Simple and the world didn't end.

Anti-factual nonsense; can we agree this is true on right and left? And where did the Islam thing come from, is that a talking point in conservative groups? ALL liberal people I know reject organized religion (not spirituality) as a way to control weak minded people and attack real progress based on data and science. Heck even a lot of conservative folks I know have grown tired of religion. And speaking of alternate reality how do you account for climate change deniers and the election of a populist demagogue on the right? Crazy is crazy, whatever side of the coin you are on.
  • 4 3
 @reverend27: I disagree, anyone is welcome at the table of discussion provided they can back up what they are saying with reasonable arguments backed up by verifiable data. Those who spout cliche'd talking points from their favorite for-profit personality have no place at that table because it is clear they do not posses the ability to work through complex issues and work in the best interest of the group as a whole. Let's put it this way, if I was choosing who has a place at said table "woke" and "maga" would warrant instant rejections.
  • 3 1
 @highfivenwhiteguy:

The problem is people picking a team and cheering blindly.

I tell conservatives who think any Democrat is evil to go look up countries that have only one political party.

The list is short about 10 countries starts with North Korea ends with China.

Also I agree with both of your posts.

I was thinking about the bathroom thing the other day..I mean gay people use them already right? So if a dude wants to get a look at my **** he already can.
  • 5 9
flag Schlafmutzli (Nov 7, 2019 at 10:52) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: wow finally it happened! Islam had to be mentioned at some point...
Like really? Its already hard enough to keep this conversation on a non sexist lvl (I am quite impressed though) but at least leave that fking racist sh*t out of it!
  • 9 0
 How about this Born with a Willy . Compete against Men Born with a Vagina. Compete against Women What a concept
  • 9 7
 @Schlafmutzli: Islam isn't a person so I don't see that as racist.

A couple months ago I was watching a interview with UFC kahbib nurmegamedov (sorry spelling) and he stated something to the order of " if you insult my religion what do you expect?"

As if insulting ones imaginary friend should result in physical violence.

I am against anything that puts that kind of thinking in people.

Second I feel that way about all religions. Wearing a cross around your neck is the same as wearing a funny hat or scarf. Thinking that it will get you closer to your imaginary friend.

All religion is dangerous it controls people's minds and hearts with no evidence whatsoever.
I see someone in a hajib or wearing a cross the same as I see someone in a maga hat. Dangerous. And willing to believe some DUMB ASS SH*T.
  • 6 3
 @reverend27: Wow... do we go to the same church? I follow the same gospel.

I think you are referring to exaggerated submission to a form of collective consciousness. It is surely an evolutionary mechanism that strenghtens the tribe but it can go rampant. I used to think it’s a sign of being rather stupid and unfit to the future of humanity but then Trump won election, many idiots across the world did too, Brexit as well and great team sports, Olympic games don’t lose much popularity at all. To me it shows limitations of intelligence. After all it is all a matter of circumstances.

Most Religions are an organized form of spirituality. We must remember that it civilizes tribal beliefs. Ayahuasca seems awake as fuk and all, but it’s nothing more but a ritual detached from rather sketchy culture and almost every single Westener who would realize where it is coming from would be scared to shit. So we cherry pick what suits us, which is more than fine. But I still find ironic how religions take humans away from deep spirituality, available mostly through various psychoactive substances but those who mastered tripping are nowhere less savage than Religious people, they just don’t have the power of the masses to operate with.

Did I mention that Rachel Atherton ruined modern era of Womens DH racing while folks are preaching the chopped off dicks Appcalypse
  • 2 3
 @reverend27: Ha ha I wish I could claim that I am immune from the tribalism but I get drawn into it waaaaaay too often! Those in power know all too well how to get the masses riled up and fighting amongst ourselves. Instead of agonizing over who has a ding-dong and who doesn't I say we focus on things that will help everyone. Two things I would love to see is the strengthening of the separation of church and state and the establishment of the separation of money from politics.
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Nothing like a good smoke in the woods surrounded by nature to remind me what is important in life.
  • 3 2
 @highfivenwhiteguy: exactly. Wow you keep saying what I forgot to say.

Yes Getting money out of politics is Paramount. We can't save our democracy if we don't get the money and corporate lobbiests out.

And just last night Anna on Young Turks was saying how happy she was that Muslim women are finally getting representatives in Congress.

And I'm thinking aren't we supposed to be separating church and religion from government? This is a backwards step.

In my neck of the woods we just got done fighting the idiotic "intelligent design" as an option to teaching evolution in school.
  • 3 0
 Drink enough IPA and you can probably complete as a woman!
  • 5 3
 @drivereight: how? IPAs make beards grow faster.
  • 1 3
 @Bawilson0605: C'mon, it's not that hard to understand : It's about feeling that you have the mind of a gender (here a woman) in the body of the other gender (a male).
It may be possible if all this is linked with testosterone or whatever during the first days/weeks of pregnancy.
There may be a rise of T secretion that may define the sexual attributes, and earlier or later another that would define the brain, and maybe most of the time both indicate the same gender for both brain/mind development and body/genitals development, but maybe in some rare occasion the result is different.

Now it doesn't tell if transgender women should race with woman or not, but don't oversimplify what isn't simple.
  • 5 0
 @highfivenwhiteguy: seriously. gtfo with that 4chan bullshit
  • 10 1
 Totally agree. I am all for the transgender movement but it is not fair to let them compete against women, Kate Weatherly is very talented but did not start seeing real competitive results until after she transitioned, this proves that she has an advantage. This is no dis to her because she was just following the rules, but the rules need to change. No amount of testosterone limiting is ever going to undo years of growing as a man with normal testosterone levels.
  • 3 5
 @Schlafmutzli: I see you’ve been indoctrinated by the group think.

BTW it was Obama who coined Islam the “Religion of peace”.

Islam is an ideology, not a race. Interestingly women also suffer under that nonsense too.
  • 8 0
 @TyBrenninger: EXACTLY!

Allowing females and trans females to compete is not comparing apples to apples. More like peaches to plums.

I'll see myself out.
  • 1 0
 yes!
  • 2 0
 @highfivenwhiteguy: Bang on the money mate.
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: WAKI.... ru saying that you’ve done drugs????? Never I don’t believe it.
  • 1 0
 I’m pretty sure he still read these on the internet lol @darkmuncan:
  • 2 2
 Sorry you don’t get to comment as a women you have to leave it to all the men above Because they know what is best for you and other women who are competing @crysvb:
  • 3 1
 @fattyheadshok: SWIM did it before he was 20 then started again just recently, planning to peak in few years... claims now it is a much more vivid and informed experience. SWIM seeks a way of doing a MTB frame with integrated bong and stash box for weed and shrooms... if only we could talk about things like that instead of men not being able to give birth to kids and women not being able to produce sperm. Do people who transition from female to male... do they also gain ability to mansplain or lose ability to hold farts when watching TV with the family? not mentioning leaving the lid up after peeing?
  • 2 0
 @Chadnparker: your punctuation is all screwed up making that very hard to figure out at first. you should redo it because it's one of the funnier posts on here!
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: am a trans man (7 years into transition), and have never been able to hold farts; my ability not to care about stupid stuff (like not eating food that has fallen on the floor) is outrageous though.
  • 3 0
 @transportguy: If your partner tells you: "the weatherman says the weather will be great this weekend, how about we have some cosy time together in a lodge, we can..." do you cut them off in the middle saying: "are you fricking mad? I'm going to dig trails with Harry and then we'll be watching Alien 1 - he just found his old VHS recorder and TV" or do you rather go and meet friends to watch "50 shades of Grey" followed by "sex in the city" and report to each other everything you heard last month that starts with "don't tell anyone but..."
  • 1 0
 @savagelake: to be faaaairrrrr! "letterkeeny"
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I broke up with my last partner, quit my job and moved a whole country away totally by myself (okay, I got a dog) in order to have better riding possibilities (Tricity to Cracow, you know the drill Wink ), so go figure. Also, don't tell anyone, but I love Beauty and the Beast...
  • 1 2
 @highfivenwhiteguy: Regarding your bathroom comment, I have a better solution which would save time for patrons, and money for establishments. Just one large bathroom with mostly urinals, and a couple of stalls for pooing only. Everyone knows that there is always a massive queue to get into the female toilets because they waste so much time opening the door, closing the door, sitting down, etc. It takes women on average 1 minute 43 seconds longer to perform bathroom duties (number 1) than men.

Socialisation and peer pressure have taught women they need a private stall in which to urinate - but that could change. Women are just as capable as men of peeing in a urinal while standing up. The obvious solution is to have a peeing area with urinals and a pooing area with stalls. That way men are not disadvantaged by having to wait for a stall in a unisex bathroom that they neither want or need.
  • 3 1
 @transportguy: why do I have an impression that it is ok to be talking like this with you while there are hordes of North Americans who are offended by it? A bit like the gay dude at mi office winking to me if I want to have a cigarette outside and me saying, “let’s have a f@g. Him laughing and everyone else in a mix of shock and wishing they weren’t there... if we cannot laugh about it then how will we discharge the inevitable tension? It doesn’t matter if it is a transgender person walking to a room full of heteros, or a muslim walking into scientific convent. Or Waki showing up in leopard kit on Sunday group road ride with CX club. Difference builds up tension. Skillful humour helps to discharge it. All he beat!
  • 2 1
 @jaame: so we are saving the world for real now... reinvent the womens toilets...
  • 5 2
 @Will-narayan: Your right it is not hard to understand in any way. While what your saying makes alittle since it doesn't change any of the scientific facts. Reguardless of time released testosterone levels affecting sex and blah blah blah, you have no say so of when these are released. So it has been proven many times that when you exit your mother's special spot, you have a defined sex regardless of your emotional feelings, science doesn't care about your feelings it cares about facts. It really is super simple. We have to many people trying to make it a complicated when all you have to do is look between your legs weather you like it or not.
  • 3 0
 @Bawilson0605: I feel like I could have gotten my teenage buddies so much more upset if I had referred to it as their mother's "special spot". Where were you all those years ago?
  • 1 0
 @enduroNZ: LOL yes, i guess so.. what was i thinking expressing my unpopular opinion on pinkbike?!
  • 2 5
 @ronan: A lot more than simple binary sex assignment ( x/y chromosome) determines gender. It is a spectrum involving brain/mind. Rules draw hard lines over spectrums so not so simple as it may seem.
  • 1 4
 @zonaec:Yes! How can there be 102 neg props to this!? These athletes are human beings living with much harder troubles than most of us - come on people, the next baby born into your circle could become transgender.
  • 1 2
 @Adamrideshisbike: ???? Well, that's it folks! He broke the whole thing wide open! Are you suggesting that because a studies have suggested that men have better vision than women this gives them an advantage when they ride bicycles?! You realise this is nonsense, right?
  • 1 0
 @Bawilson0605: Science fact : "Some evidence from brain morphology and function studies indicates that male and female brains cannot always be assumed to be identical from either a structural or functional perspective, and some brain structures are sexually dimorphic."
You may want to have a look between your ears as well. It really isn't super simple.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality
  • 1 0
 @Will-narayan: Question.. Does this have anything to do with physical advantages or disadvantages.
  • 4 1
 @typx: I'm simply saying that this is far more complicated than testosterone levels.

Humans are sexually dimorphic, which means there are 100s of differences large and small (mostly small) between men and women. Taking cross-sex hormones cannot account for all of these differences and differences in visual acuity are one of many important differences that would impact the ability to create a fair, level playing field between biological men competing against women.
  • 2 3
 @jorgeposada: yep agreed. This male is too much of a btch lol (literally) to compete with other guys. How about we just stop enabling crazy people as considered normal. Trans community = another mentally ill minority of our population. Let’s get them the mental health care they need and stop this bullsht
  • 3 3
 @brentkratz: Because fairness in women’s sport is more important than a societal/mental condition that moronic people think is genetic.

The end.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: You wish to make women pee in urinals alongside men? You might be a perve.
  • 1 0
 @the-burd: I believe in equality. Since men and women are equal, we can all pee in the same toilet facilities. I wouldn't want urinals to disappear because they allow a large number of users in a short time. Toilet stalls create a bottleneck in busy environments. If we must move to unisex bathroom facilities, it makes sense to use the most cost effective, efficient type.
  • 1 1
 @the-burd: there is no solution to womens public toilets, their anatomy and dressing code is greatly inferior to males in that respect. Even if you would make Japanese style, hole in the floor they would risk putting their skirts into the filthy zone and they would need to step in it in their precious shoes. Very sketchy in high heels. Perhaps a wall from stainless steel sheet with flowing water.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: 600,000 women in India manage to keep their saris out of the filthy zone but I agree with you about the high heels. Football boots too. Very sketchy on the squatters.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Women technically can pee standing up, but they won't. Ask them, they won't, and further more they aren't going to respond well to men telling them there is a change and they must use urinals now. Also women need privacy and protection from men. That won't be taken from them going forward. You have to go backward in time for that.
  • 3 0
 @zonaec: if someone is shocked that they are starting to go through puberty than they are definitely not old or mature enough to start taking hormone blockers to alter their body for life. Lets remember at this age they are not legal to undertake in sexual activities so how could parents allow this?
Educate the kids, don't promote ill informed decisions
  • 1 1
 @the-burd: yeah, only 100k years backwards...
  • 1 0
 Agree why not a transgender class, is that not the fair solution or does the fear transgender have is no competitive racing as you need podium plus 1? So 4 racers complete the race.
  • 1 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: its not if everyone entering the women’s class gets tested
  • 1 0
 @zonaec: This is total bullcrap.
  • 1 0
 @enduroFactory: there was a race this year in which there were only two junior women competitors. You can have a race with only one. You can only beat what’s in front of you. Scale the prize money and everyone’s happy.
  • 1 2
 @bizutch: Are YOU a female taking a look at her own category and saying what she would like to see happen to it. OH NO YOUR A WHITE MALE TELLING THE WORLD HOW TO LIVE ITS LIFE.
  • 3 0
 @colwilliams: just for the record, you’re means you are. Your means your.
  • 3 5
 How do I unsubscribe from this insufferable nonsense?

Because I’m going to my grave believing a person’s sex is determined by the chromosome they’re born with. Even if it’s an premature grave for refusing to accept something different. And even though I’ll never lift a finger to intentionally cause harm to other people who may think different. Regardless of whatever is driving them to have a different belief. If my belief and decisions resulting from it somehow cause another person hurt, well I can’t do anything more about that than another person can if their belief and decisions from it cause me hurt.

Because it does cause me considerable grief and sorrow to see people walking on a path that I believe with all my mind, and with all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my might, is not going to end well for them. Each of us will answer for ourself and only ourself on that day. I pray for all people to find the straight gate and narrow path, that is; salvation, and the life ever-after.
  • 3 1
 @TheUnknownMTBR: You started with a respectable loosely science based argument and ended up bible thumping. I might call that insufferable nonsense.
  • 3 2
 @the-burd: I feel sorry for him. I do. Imagine the pain he must be experiencing when trying to reinforce this nonsense inside of his head. There is no way to reconcile “God” who “makes” you are and “God who disapproves who you are, demanding you to change under the threat of “hell”. People believing that are living hell on Earth, just read his “with all my heart, all my mind” and other shit. He attaches existential charge to gender. He is having serious existential issues caused by nothing more but brainwash of mainstream religion. “Salvation”, Jesus fkng Christ... the pressure of his family to follow this crap. I am empathetic
  • 1 2
 @Adamrideshisbike: Those sure are some fancy words going nowhere. My girl and I had a good laugh about this. Thanks!

Lord knows her visual acuity has been a problem when it comes to spotting predators at a distance!
  • 1 1
 @typx: yes he is such a misogynist he wouldn’t take Hunger games so he hasn’t heard about Mocking Jay which is a proof that women are actually better at visual acuity than men. Such an uncomfortable truth. Oh ha ha ha.
  • 513 22
 How the hell is Kate not riding for Transition bike co.?
  • 67 4
 whew thats spicy. I better screenshot this before its deleted.
  • 13 6
 @hamncheez @AntN : nothing wrong about that one. It`s on the edge but subtle for once, and it doesn`t cause any harm. Would you sollicitate a tweet from Trump to get something politically correct and smart about that subject? Personally I would not prefer.
  • 20 1
 Jesus Christ, I should have seen that coming.
  • 5 4
 ????
  • 213 6
 I'm wondering the same thing!
  • 9 0
 it's funny - she'd get it. oops! already did approve!
  • 5 2
 Well, no.1: the guy from FMDracing made comments about this issue recently that were not exactly supportive - I don't think it's a good match
  • 8 0
 Ha, ha...I sometimes wear TR shirts at work and regularly get shit from my co-workers who know nothing about mountain biking. I just tell them, "Yes, I'm in Transition."
  • 5 0
 @Pixelbanger: I even started to consider changing my nickname which I use on every online forum I visit, since I got to know there is some diagnose of people who fluidly move themselve from one sex to another. No one's gonna believe me it's a crappy name of my diploma thesis program simulating water dynamics.
  • 3 2
 Definitely a marketing opportunity!

Devinci is a pretty good option, though, as Leonardo Davinci may have had a complex sexual and/or gender identity situation:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_life_of_Leonardo_da_Vinci#Sexuality
  • 8 0
 Tony Seagrave approves this post, maybe.
  • 3 0
 @Pixelbanger: "Of course I'd like to be on Transition more often but I usually restricted to going for it on weekends". lol
  • 1 10
flag enduroNZ (Nov 8, 2019 at 1:04) (Below Threshold)
 @pinkbike you have a duty to shut comments down like this. It’s terrible
  • 8 1
 @enduroNZ: oh yeah, freedom of speech is strong in this one. Have you ever heard of a concept called... Joke? And it’s function in society and individual human psyche? Or term, “fun Police?”
  • 5 2
 @enduroNZ: You are whats wrong with the world these days. Harden up.
  • 202 5
 Separate Genetics from Gender Identity? Have categories XX, XY and Open.
  • 12 1
 That is a cool idea.
  • 6 0
 Best idea I’ve seen...who can argue w that.
  • 182 7
 Please let the open category allow juicing as well, I want to see what the human body is capable of with cybernetic implants, pigs blood, methamphetamine and cocaine pulsing through the veins.
  • 14 2
 I wouldn't be surprised if transgender athletes were very against a 3rd class. Even though it makes sense, they will never be happy until they compete as they identify or claim exclusion.
  • 22 1
 @Ron-C: they are. They want to be recognized as a woman. Which is fine for everything that's not something where you have a distinct biological advantage. It will slowly push biological females out of sports which is unfair. I dont know what the right answer is but these seems to be at least on the right track.
  • 6 0
 @ctd07: Saturday Night Live- All drug olympics!!

youtu.be/jAdG-iTilWU
  • 3 3
 Or alternately just one Open category, in which riders are sub-categorized genetically for qualification and ranking - all athletes compete together and are then “sorted” genetically for podiums and ranking. However I could see this negatively impacting the emphasis on Women in sports which has made some big strides.

No real right answer... just need to find the right shade of grey!
  • 1 0
 Yes! I'm really liking this open class concept.
  • 16 1
 The "men's" category is basically the open class.
If a women by any definition wanted to enter the men's class they are free to do it.
  • 1 0
 @Ricekrispyota: ahahaha so glad someone has parodied it already
  • 2 0
 that's exactly what we have. "open" is what the men's field is - there are regional events (in mtb and other sports) where if the female competition isn't strong enough, a female will race in the mens' category. I believe Georgia Gould used to do this at the Laramie Mountain Bike Series (local races in S WY, just north of fort collins.) Why would you need an XY and open class? one of them would quickly become "Mens' semi pro"
  • 10 1
 @Ron-C: to be fair, I don't think it's "they" - I think MOST transgendered people understand this, but there are a few "activist" types, many who are not trans themselves, who will "never be happy". Just want to point out that it's always a vocal few who make issues, and for as indignant about this topic as some people get, I don't think it's fair to cast "transgender athletes" as all in one camp.
  • 4 1
 @trialsracer: This was posted earlier. She definitely falls into the category of I will not race in a a different class. There are a number of others too, I am pretty sure very few if any support the idea of a different class.

cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/news/transgender-world-champion-rachel-mckinnon-defends-title-in-manchester
  • 1 0
 @ctd07: I’m 2 for 4 on ur list, I’m halfway there!!!! ;-)
  • 1 0
 @DirtbagMatt: were you sent back in time to kill the leader of the future porcine resistance?
  • 1 0
 @ctd07: this will make all sports so much more exciting! I like it
  • 3 0
 Yeaaaaaah see, one problem with that is, this dude has XX chromosomes: www.outsports.com/2018/9/27/17909094/ajay-holbrook-transgender-bodybuilding
Please inform yourself better.
  • 6 3
 Actually then you don’t need the third “OPEN” class. That’s how you get around the entire thing, just an XX and XY classification. The “feelings” argument is eliminated.
  • 5 1
 @trialsracer: Open class instead of Men is a great solution, tbh. Good for people who are mid-transition, would really rather not race as a "Man," but don't yet meet the UCI's requirements and/or don't feel comfortable racing as a "Woman" either. Also hey, non-binary people exist. Coincidentally, as I've transitioned, I've gravitated more towards races with Open categories (generally less-sanctioned affairs such as alleycats and bandit tracklocross races, where the other category is often women/trans-fem/nonbinary anyway) and self-flagellating solo challenges like Everesting, where I'm just competing against my own ideas of what's possible.
  • 1 1
 yes, open class could also include people experimenting with biotech. Its only fair to keep stock and modified separate. If TG people wanna race, let them keep their testosterone if they want, not be forced to take hard drugs just to enjoy the spirit of competition. I dont think its fair for the uci to force people to take performance reducing drugs when they are all about not taking performance changing drugs at all. just make a separate class and many more TG people will enter and be accepted by both genders. Id like to hear what more girls think about this.
  • 1 0
 @the-burd: yes. no testing, everything and anything legal except electric motors on the bike.
if you have one implanted in your ass, thats ok. haha
  • 1 0
 @ctd07: just watch any of the tours from the nineties
  • 1 1
 That's not a bad idea
  • 2 4
 Stupid idea because AGaIN like all you keyboard knowitalls there is no such thing as transgenderism. It’s a mental illness that someone thinks they’re something they truly are not. It’s actually sick to think society has swayed this far to accept people thinking they are the opposite from how they were born. It’s called keeping Male and Female sports separate and sending this very small minority % of the population to the dr. Period.
  • 2 1
 @SHEESHKAH: no it’s not. Why enable mental illness mainstream? These people are sick and need help. Quit thinking you’re on the side of “progression” when in fact this is totally regression if we are now denying science. Totally absurd
  • 3 1
 @bordn21: Not sure what science you’re referring to. There are a plethora of examples of animals exhibiting transgender behavior in nature if that’s what you’re getting at. Being transgender is very real in all facets of science, and has NOT been considered a mental illness by professionals since the 20th century.
  • 2 1
 @bordn21: even if you were right, a mental illness is still a very real illness and would deserve no less acceptance.

But you're totally wrong.
  • 105 32
 women are women men are men, the soul may not have a gender, but the body sure does.
  • 18 13
 Soul? I’m a troll at soul... some are heroes, and some are cnts! God made me this way
  • 6 0
 What about us gingers, whom have no soul at all?!
  • 3 2
 @hirvi: I was kidding, there is no soul, we are only clouds of smoke in the void slowly but surely joining the the cosmic nothingness. Some call it... The Ginger puff!
  • 1 0
 This is pseudoscientific at best, but really you're just wrong.
  • 2 0
 @SHEESHKAH: you mean gingers or the fact that transgender man cannot impregnate any woman? Or that no transgender woman cannot be impregnated by anybody and have give birth to a kid? Is gender more than this? Yes. It’s also about farting or being able to laugh at the movie with Sarah Jessica Parker in it.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I appreciate the joke and there’s a bit of wisdom in what you’re getting at.
  • 2 0
 @SHEESHKAH: I see people working with different disciplines in construction sector. I am a lot into psychology. And after many years I see certain patterns. Like Interior design. Yes you can have a gay dude who can do amazing stuff but it takes a lot of macho confidence to sell it to a client. Women have it too but men somehow trump skill and experience with raw confidence. When you order a design you want to hear everything your consult says like they are confident in his design. Engineers? Women? Yeah, no problem, in fact there are many, but they crack earlier when you push them into changing their verdict. Completely other way around with inspectors. Women are excellent at it, just like bit more feminine men, they will not give a freaking inch because since they are already in position of power, they are less willing to take chances, more ambitious and much less likely to go: this will do. Women are also excellent at counting money... and keeping it. You can honeydick a dude into pricier thing if you bring up prestige, good looks, won't work wit ha woman. Males working with feminine dominated tasks (interior design, city planning, landscaping) tend to be more feminine, there is higher percentage of gay dudes in those disciplines. it is much more cpmplex than testosterone. yes. But by a rule of a thumb, bossy women get much farther in anything they chose to do, than "fragile" males. Female gaining male confidence is always ahead of other females and tends to blow males out of the water. It looks rather dim the other way around. Neither men or women respect you.

but construction sector is favoring male traits. I would argue huge portion of academia too, including human sciences. completly different thing in psychology, beauty. When I see a male psychologist, then I am just waiting for the dude to tell me what he already knew about me long before I was born. Women listen. Even the bossy ones. I am generally much more sexist towards men, because I am unable to give them slack. If you are dude and you can't make up your mind under tension (without being able to motivate it and behave as if you were not at any fault) then change job. If you come to me and say: I was wasted last night, then no probs. But if you sneak around finding fault in God knows what... GTFO. With women, I have no problems, they are rarely lazy and most often more focused, more present. If they appear tired or split, then they tend to have a reason for it. Men... in most cases lazy and unwilling to put their sht together. If you are a mother of a kid younger than 15 - you get all the slack from me until you mess up repeatedly. Which is rare

And I know I am not the only one when I listen to guys like Jordan Peterson. The untold, uncomfortable fact for feminists: males treat males in much more extreme ways - they either get along very well, or they will stomp the weak dude down into the hole he crawled from under. When it comes to competition, males are much more capable of healthy, productive competition. Womens relations with other women... hah... the biggest enemy of a woman, tends to be another woman...

A case study... there are some beggars sitting around entrances to shops here. Sometimes it is a couple changin posts. Dude will get some coins and will wander around, buy a pack of cigarettes, talk on the phone about meaning of life with his buddies. Woman? She will sit there and work for it, she has a kid somewhere, making sure it gets any food into it's mouth. I have seen it time and time again. The analogy to male lion sitting under a tree while females hunt, cannot be more accurate. But it also shows what we humans are made of. Monkeys who learned to virtue signal...
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: tldr
  • 61 3
 I believe testosterone is not the only thing that differentiate men from women. I think it's unfair to the girls that worked up the ranks to excel in a sport. An honest question, are there transgender women competing in the men category?
  • 31 1
 I wonder the same thing. Does the reverse happen? As in women identifying as men competing with biological men? I think there's too large of a physiological disadvantage - which says to me that this is obviously unfair to women. It's like modern society has come up with a politically correct way to demean women and you are punished if you question it.
  • 21 5
 The phrase you're looking for is "transgender man". Someone who's transitioned from woman to man is a "transgender man".
  • 7 1
 Perhaps in curling.
  • 6 1
 @bemery: Aww hey, nice to see you in this absolute dumpster fire!
  • 3 2
 @bemery: Think imma dip on outta here before my head explodes
  • 5 2
 @getrad24-7 "How great to see you! And how terrible that you're here" - Ned Flanders, Simpsons Movie
  • 2 0
 @bemery: did not dip on outta here. RIP my cabeza
  • 55 5
 Regarding the sporting regulations on gender, I don't know what the right answer is. It's complicated and there's no perfectly clear-cut solution.

One thing is certain, though: Kate has to deal with a lot more than most athletes and she stays really positive and friendly, which makes her pretty great.
  • 8 0
 I strongly agree with both statements.
  • 2 1
 Probably the most sensible comment here
  • 44 4
 Testosterone levels have very little effect on things. there's a brilliant presentation by a proper biologist on youtube.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzg9QtQelR8

pretty much says that it doesn't matter how low the test levels are or how early the various drugs to transition start being taken, biological men are still significantly stronger than biological women and still keep all the other genetic advantages too.
The only fair way is to race as the sex you were born as.
  • 5 1
 Good link. It explains what most of us had suspected that Male to Female Trans athletes have a huge advantage.
  • 26 1
 I've watched the video and i'm not disagreeing with it, but as a broader point I'd suggest being cautions of youtube videos and blogs from people claiming to have scientific authority without references or peer review. There's a real danger of confirmation bias because you can always find someone who sounds authoritative supporting whatever you want to believe. If you really want to find evidence, rather than confirming what you already want to believe, go straight to Google scholar.
  • 9 0
 @seb-stott: she's a real scientist, my partner is also a PhD and has met her. Every study she references has been properly peer reviewed.
  • 36 0
 The real issue, I think, is how much effect the high test levels in the past have had - which is a massively more complex problem than just measuring the present quantity of a single hormone. I don't think this change really addresses the main concern people have in this area.
  • 15 0
 100%. Some of these people act like the Y chromosome just sits there and does nothing for around 13 years or so. Are they out of their mind? Those genes are being expressed long before labor and delivery of the fetus.

As a biologist I don't see how it is possible to erase years and years of mitotic differentiation into a phenotypic male. Some hormone therapy and a good plastic surgeon and we are good to go????? Yes there are timed hormonal rhythms during development but this alone is not differentiating the male body from the female body - not even close.
  • 11 0
 @swellhunter: The times they are a-changing. Pinkbike commentators used to start sentences with "As an engineer..."
  • 41 4
 Before anyone misreads this and loses their mind: lowering the maximum threshold should mean it's now more strict and less open to potential abuse.
  • 31 11
 Isn't any category mixing at all abuse? I'm in my thirties, if I get my testosterone levels to be the same as a 17 year old, can I compete in the juniors?
  • 67 2
 @hamncheez: Go for it, you will probably be smoked by them.
  • 7 0
 @hamncheez: get your level to jr level and dominate 30s why go down to jrs?
  • 51 0
 @hamncheez: u won't have time. u will be too busy spankin' it.
  • 11 5
 @hamncheez: Testosterone abuse is already banned by WADA on the grounds that it's unfair to artificially raise one's testosterone above what naturally occurs for a performance benefit. Here we have people who naturally have more testosterone than the rest of their field and they're trying to REDUCE it to become more fair. That's pretty unprecedented and we've got to work through it. Parroting poorly-crafted arguments is not being part of the solution.
  • 8 1
 @fullfacemike: Women naturally vary quite a bit in their T levels. Most women have significantly less than the current requirement of 10nmol/L . However, will we know have to have women have their T levels below 10nmol/L , or whatever the new level will be? Can women juice up to the 10nmol/L  limit?

This also ignores all the other physical advantages that men who compete in the women's field have. A reduction in T levels doesn't reduce performance that much.
  • 6 5
 @hamncheez: I don't make the rules, man. You're going to have to direct all those questions at UCI. Here's their contact page, get cracking! www.uci.org/news/2015/contacts-168758
  • 10 0
 I really find it interesting they have narrowed it down to testosterone levels to dictate “gender”. I still find the difference in lung capacity and muscle mass between men and women an odd qualifier to not consider. I don’t envy having to figure all of that stuff out
  • 1 0
 Athlete Biological Passport (ABP) -- www.wada-ama.org/en/athlete-biological-passport
  • 7 5
 @usedbikestuff: Okay so, both of those are actually affected by hormonal transition. The former because estrogen and t-blockers cause a decrease in muscle mass, and the latter because they also cause a decrease in red blood cell production (something that's tied to testosterone levels). Red blood cells carry oxygen from your lungs to wherever it needs to go, so if you can't make as many, you'll be able to take in less oxygen per breath.
  • 4 0
 @getrad24-7: yea I am no scientist, but following this same issue in the crossfit world, they originally wouldn’t allow athletes to compete due to the physical differences in the lung and airway structures amongst other disqualifiers.

Hormonal treatment can reduce the effectiveness, maybe not at the same rate for everyone, but it will never cause the lungs to get smaller or the nasal cavity to shrink so it could never be equal in that regard. And to the same point, muscle mass on men starts at a higher point along with bone density, depreciating that with hormone treatment doesn’t mean that it will get to a level of parody to naturally born women.

I am terrible at racing and it doesn’t matter to me in the slightest.

There is a right and wrong side to stand on when it comes to doing what is right and supporting each other. I just find the science of the competition side of it fascinating.

I look at the Australian (nz? I forget) athlete that transitioned and went straight to second or third place behind Rachel atherton, nuts. I can see where people get frustrated.

But I also can’t even begin to imagine living a life where I never felt comfortable being in my own body because it didn’t feel like it was the right gender.

Soap box off
  • 50 16
 let me get this straight; some people who in their own minds are
not what they want to be and change original morphology to adapt reality
to suit their preference are allowed to compete based on this decision?
Essentially they are allowed to compete in whatever category they choose.
And you have to debate if this is fair or NOT?
This is a symptom of a society that cannot or will not accept that it is killing itself.
This and participation trophys for soccer.
  • 17 8
 Actually you’re not supposed to debate it. You just have to accept it. At least that’s what I gathered from previous discussions about this topic.
  • 5 0
 @cvoc: its settled science, the debate is over before it begins..:P
  • 3 0
 @DDoc: taps-nose-with-finger-dot-gif
  • 47 14
 I got my comment deleted so i guess I have to be nicer... but idk how this is even a debate, testosterone IS NOT the only performance difference between men and woman and its absurd to say that it is. If you want to pretend your a different biological sex cool whatever but you should be competing against what you actually are and not cheat. sorry if I dont sound WOKE but this shit is ridiculous. honestly I believe if your going to transition to a different gender than you give up your right to compete in sports
  • 16 5
 THIS...or go ahead and race in your actual genetic class.
  • 21 21
 ...and I was just deleted by an Administrator who stated that the next step is "suspension" for me because I didn't refer to this athlete as "her" ....
  • 87 64
 @dylandoe: yes, the note in the article above specifically explains that we don't allow misgendering of trans athletes, and we expect the debate to be respectful.
  • 48 25
 @brianpark: this comments section makes me real pessimistic about my place in the mtb community post-transition, but hey, at least you're trying
  • 31 42
flag hamncheez (Nov 6, 2019 at 20:22) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: why do you have that policy? It is unscientific and harms women's cycling
  • 21 5
 @getrad24-7: I don't know you, but I root for you.
  • 35 8
 @hamncheez: The policy doesn’t harm anything. Denying people the respect of referring to them as they wish is just not nice and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
  • 15 6
 @alreadyupsidedown:
It’s not nice but it’s hardly a personal attack or “slur” that should ban someone from posting things on a mountain biking website. People call each other “unwanted names” on Pinkbike every single day, doesn’t mean everyone should to do everything possibly in their power to punish them.
  • 20 29
flag PinkyScar (Nov 6, 2019 at 23:46) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: Kudos for maintaining some standard of respect and dignity, but the comment section still reads like a ridiculous dogpile/witch hunt/dumpster fire, on a topic which clearly threatens the predominately male readership on this site. What stake do they have in this subject anyway, and is pinkbike actually a place to house such a complex debate on what constitutes "fair" play in sport and gender?
  • 18 2
 @PinkyScar: If that's what you see it's because of your ideological lens distorting your perception. I see comments that are respectful but which refuse to be blind to an obvious reality. And are you suggesting Pinkbike shouldn't be allowed to have this discussion? What's next, an attempt to "cancel" it?
  • 11 3
 @PinkyScar: and wait a minute, how can this threaten the male readership? If we're insecure in our masculinity shouldn't we be delighted that male-to-female athletes are dominating women's sports?
  • 8 0
 Live how you want or need to. Don't let anyone stop you.

Just don't screw over anyone else trying to live how they want/need.
  • 8 1
 Your place is exactly the same as it was before you changed what you call yourself. A part of of a big group of people who f*cking love bikes! The only thing that’s different is you can compete In the category you define your self as it either makes it unfair to others @getrad24-7:
  • 7 3
 Careful now. Misgendering and biological facts could, theoretically land you with a 6 month prison sentence in the UK.
Take a look:
www.faircop.org.uk
  • 16 21
flag DDoc (Nov 7, 2019 at 5:25) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: lets get real Brian, are you now against free speech?
This is going too far when your dictating the use of pronouns under threat of retaliation.
What you personally consider disrespectful does not negate our right to free speech on this site or anywhere else.

Just like the wild salmon don't need a dam or a hatchery, we dont need political moderators or thought police.

I would hope your more interested in protecting the real women racers and not put TGs "claimed rights" above the rights of real women and men.

Just because they made a decision to change genders doesn't mean I have to give up my rights to free speech.
  • 10 3
 @alreadyupsidedown: Tell that to my girls when professional womens cycling doesn't exist in any meaningful way in 15 years.
  • 12 10
 @brianpark: Respect? How much did you let people disrespect ebikers over the last few years. You let people ague and disrespect others rights to ride a bike of their choice on a daily basis!
This is not about respect its about politics. You let the ebikers hang out to dry and now the real women racers.

sad bro.
  • 7 14
flag almacigatrailrider (Nov 7, 2019 at 5:38) (Below Threshold)
 @hamncheez: This. Once more dudes decide to go this route and start dominating the women's field and take away podiums from Seagrave or Siegenthaler, who's gonna feel sorry for them?

What's to stop Loic from suddenly identifying as a woman and then go on to be the first ever UCI Inter-Gender World Champion? Wait. That would be cool by the way.
  • 2 4
 @almacigatrailrider: Jump to conclusions much?
  • 22 6
 @DDoc: we want Pinkbike to be a community for discussion and debate with as little moderation as possible, but your "free speech" doesn't depend on being able to say whatever you want on Pinkbike. We have terms of use and policies for a reason, and we expect you to follow them.

The fairness debate is super important, and we want it to play out here, but it needs to be respectful. Transphobic slurs have real consequences for a vulnerable group of people—imagine what the consequences of some of the offhand "jokes" here could be.

We're doing our best to find balance.
  • 14 0
 @DDoc: free speech involves u and the govt, not u and a private company.
  • 4 0
 @brianpark:
The same kind of consequences as people calling people a c*nt every 2 hours?
  • 9 4
 @freeridejerk888: yeah see it’s not though. I’m now a part of a big group of people who love bikes... but I’m now acutely aware that that big group includes a rather vocal subset of people who don’t see me as fully human. People who, coming from that position (that I’m “mentally ill,” “a fetishist,” “a man who thinks he’s a woman,” “throwing on a wig and fake tits in order to sandbag,” take your pic), feel entitled to weigh in on issues that directly impact me, but don’t affect them in the slightest. People who think they’re speaking “the simple truth,” but lack (and actively refuse to gain) the slightest understanding of trans people and gender/sex as a whole. Idk if you can imagine how that feels, but it’s pretty disheartening if we’re being honest.
  • 5 2
 It does effect me though. My wife will never get a chance at winning a local DH race. She’s 5 feet tall and 100 lbs. not 6 fr 1 190lbs. She can’t and won’t ever be stronger and faster @getrad24-7:
  • 3 4
 @fewnofrwgijn: No. A lot worse. As Brian says, the trans community is still very vulnerable in a society that doesn’t yet fully accept them or protect their rights.
  • 7 3
 @freeridejerk888: So, your local DH scene is dominated by trans women? Interesting, where is this? I'm 5'7" and 115, FWIW
  • 9 1
 @freeridejerk888: Troy Brosnan is like 135lbs and shorter than most of the field but he does ok. You're probably just selling your wife short bud.
  • 7 0
 @keeqan: Did you just call his wife short?
  • 5 0
 @Boldfish: yeah, but to be fair he said it first.
  • 5 1
 @getrad24-7: Thank you for sharing your perspective - regardless of how it's received on pb, it's ixcredibly
  • 6 1
 @getrad24-7: incredibly informative and valuable.
  • 2 2
 Yes but as a man. Tahnee couldn’t come into the men’s category and win let alone qualify. The opposition is just that must better as a male.
  • 5 4
 @brianpark: consequences like a lawsuit? I imagine triggering some confused angry person to hire a slimy lawyer is your biggest concern. What other consequences could possibly happen? I would be more interested in
protecting open and honest discussion rather than worried about a minority group who are infiltrating and disrupting our sport. and why is this thread been removed from the que?
  • 2 2
 @savagelake: Its starts here dude. got to push back or return to the dark ages.
  • 9 4
 @getrad24-7: Saying a trans woman is someone "throwing on a wig" is offensive, yes. If its directed at a specific user, then thats probably harassment. However, comments saying "this person is a biological male" is not harassment, its not offensive, its reality stated in a neutral way. Comments stating scientific reality are being deleted by pinkbike staff.
  • 5 5
 @hamncheez: Well, no, that's not the reality of the situation. Anyone who meets this testosterone requirement has biology fundamentally different from that of a man.

transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy

PS: I've stated scientific reality in my comments, and none of them have gotten deleted. How weird...
  • 11 2
 @getrad24-7: biology yes but not physiology. Weird..

Also really weird..it's always former men entering women's sport successfully. Never the other way around.
Its weird..like physical make up has more to do with it then chemicals.
  • 7 3
 @getrad24-7: just ONCE let's see a woman take a bunch of testosterone then go start taking podiums and blow Sam Hills doors off.

Sounds obsurd doesn't it. You could take the best female rider in the world pump her full of T and she would never podium.

But we are forced to accept it in the reverse when a middling male rider who can't crack the top 20 starts podiums as a female a year later.
  • 7 5
 @reverend27: if you’d actually read any of the page I just linked, you’d see that these “chemicals” influence physical makeup pretty heavily. And yes, trans men actually do sports too. This has been discussed elsewhere in the thread. Please learn to read so we can maybe have a meaningful discussion.
  • 5 3
 @getrad24-7: o they do sports they just don't do well and that's the point.

And the chemicals don't change enough or we would see former women beating men.

I don't care what links you put up or what slanted study you put up.

Real world evidence please.
  • 5 1
 @getrad24-7: find me one former woman that's big boned and stacked like Rachel McKinnon that's smashing men's records.
  • 6 6
 @reverend27: “I don’t care what links you put up” And that’s why this conversation will go nowhere. Goodbye.
  • 5 3
 @getrad24-7: well you have nothing to say so it won't be missed.

You cant explain or link away the fact that the sex that everyone said would have an advantage DOES.

And the sex that everyone said wouldn't have an advantage is not winning or breaking records.

It's called real world evidence.
  • 8 3
 @getrad24-7: you'll not talk me into flat Earth. I can prove the Earth is not flat because HORIZON.

I can prove that former men competing in women's sports still maintain advantage because RESULTS.

End of story. Live your life however you want.
But don't cheat people at sport.
  • 7 2
 @reverend27: That's nice. I'm gonna go hit the pump track now.
  • 5 0
 @getrad24-7: wish I had a pump track nearby
  • 1 1
 @reverend27: It seems that you sir, are the perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
  • 4 1
 @megatryn: explain? I'm too stupid to know I'm stupid because I see real world evidence that contradicts someone's internet links?

Gotcha bro.
  • 2 0
 @reverend27: Not calling you stupid. You managed to do that on your own just now. Also the the DK-effect has nothing to do with intelligence, but the willingness/ability to process and realize the level of knowledge oneself is in possession of a certain topic, versus ones vocality on said topic. "I see" and "I feel like" arguments are not in any way valid when coming to topics where there actually have been done proper research with peer review in published articles. -Which is what is linked in many cases, as sending actual printed copies of said articles would not be feasible. (Yay interwebs) Read the supplied articles (which you can find through internet links) to further level up on the DK-effect graph.
  • 62 35
 If you were born a male, you race as a male. If you were born as a female, you race as a female. End of discussion. If you wish to pretend to be another sex than your actual sex, go right ahead. Race in the transgender class.
  • 25 2
 Why create a transgender class in the name of Inclusion? No one is saying you cant race if your transgender. You must simply compete in the class that aligns with your biological sex. Everyone's included because everyone has one! Not attacking your comment just seemed like a good place to put it.
  • 16 18
 @Bawilson0605: personally I believe transgender is a psychological issue. I do not believe transgender individuals should be permitted to compete or have their own class. My last comment to this effect was deleted and was followed by a threat by PB administration of a ban. Apparently PB supports men pretending to be women so that they may race to a successful outcome against females. A disturbing stance on the issue from PB staff.
  • 11 3
 @Golden-G: I figured it got deleted. It's a shame. Pinkbike is like most media outlets nowadays, all opinions are welcome as long as they align with the outlets agenda. Anywhooo.... I agree with you completely!
  • 10 3
 @Bawilson0605: the truth is decidedly unpopular these days.
  • 12 2
 @Bawilson0605: lets keep in mind that we are talking about a section of the population that accounts for less than 0.6% even less if one were to calculate the participation rate in cycling against that #. It is quite something how this tiny group garners such a disproportionate amount of media attention. Really pathetic actually.
  • 1 0
 Yes but I’m a place where there’s 60 men who could win at any. There’s like 3 women’s who could win @Golden-G:
  • 1 0
 That percentage is a lot larger when talking about women’s racing @Golden-G:
  • 1 0
 @freeridejerk888: I am not quite sure what you are attempting to convey.
  • 44 18
 Grrr. I'm typically open minded and I feel people should be able to live as they see fit for themselves, but this gets me frustrated.

For the sake of argument, let's image that I'm 42 years old, but I identify more as a 50 year old since I'm really out of shape for my age (I'm not but play along), can I race in the 50 yr old class? I don't see a this being a different argument.

At some point, we should all accept the facts that we are born with a specific sex. If you want to compete in sports, then compete as you were born. If you want to be the opposite sex, that's fine w/ me, but perhaps the trade off is that you don't try to compete unfairly.
  • 2 4
 Similar age question I had a while back regarding women purse money being much lower than men. In comparison, should 20 yr old males get higher purse money than a 50+ yr old males doing the same event? I pretty much boycott bike events that have segregated "classes" to begin with (typically much cooler events) but I so understand why it's done.
  • 7 1
 @Myfianceemademedoit:With purse money I think you should always ask yourself, how many patrons would attend, watch online, or buy sponsored products if only the men competed or only the women competed. Women draw larger attention/crowds at some events, men at others. The purse should reflect your financial contribution to an industry.
  • 2 0
 @Myfianceemademedoit: Same theory applies to age categories.
  • 4 0
 @MikeAzBS: I cannot disagree with that but it's sad when financial contribution is what will always keep the competitive fields from ever being level or equal.
  • 2 0
 @Myfianceemademedoit: I can see your point, but I wouldnt say their's anything stopping more people from being interested in those categories. It's almost always performance based. Womans gymnastics is just way better than mens or jrs. They bring significantly more interest. They should make more money than men or jrs. Womens figure skating. Same.
  • 16 6
 Okay, so: your argument doesn't work because there's no way to transition temporally from one age to another. There is, however, hormone replacement therapy for gender transition. HRT (for trans women anyway) works through a combination of estrogen and spironolactone or a similar testosterone blocker (which reduces T levels, making the estrogen more effective) has some rather dramatic physiological effects. To name a few: reduction and redistribution of muscle mass (meaning a reduction in strength), redistribution of body fat, breast development. If you want a good example of an elite athlete who also raced before she transitioned, read this interview with Jillian Bearden: www.denverpost.com/2017/08/07/first-female-transgender-pro-cyclist-colorado-classic-2017 I'm gonna take it on your word that you are open minded, and I sincerely hope you take something away from this goddamn paragraph I just wrote. Lmk if you have any further questions.
  • 3 3
 @getrad24-7: I think my argument holds. What is age? It’s a point in time but through my life based on luck and how I take care of my body, it “ages” at different rates than the average person. For example, at my company last year I got a discount on my insurance for participating in medical monitoring where they take my blood, weight, physical dimensions and survey results for on their questionnaire. I was technically 42, but it said my health age was 30. So, how old am I? I know how old from a legal standpoint (42) but what about from a physical competition standpoint? I can effectively change my age based on the condition of my body. Just like trying to change the sex that I was born with.
  • 2 2
 @getrad24-7: by the way, my age could go the other way, for example If I smoked, I would have the lungs of a much older person.
  • 6 4
 @chris87114: My point is, nobody legitimately identifies as a different age. You're borrowing a cheap gotcha argument from Ben Shapiro and trying to pass it off as something novel and clever. That's not something that merits any more response than I've already given. Read what I and others have written here, maybe do some research on your own (Google Scholar is your friend), and please drop that ridiculous false equivalency.
  • 1 1
 Sandbagging is sandbagging.
  • 31 2
 Women should be protesting big time! Absolutely not fair!
  • 14 0
 Yeah, not fair to the biological women.
  • 15 6
 Yeah, maybe y'all should get off the internet soapbox until they do. I'm sure they could make even their delicate feminine voices heard, if they felt this issue was actually a threat to their sport or careers.
  • 15 0
 @ryetoast: Look at the crap Paula Radcliffe and Sharron Davies (both British Olympians) have taken for voicing their opinion on this subject.
  • 17 4
 @ryetoast: Women are speaking up, from the top down, and being SILENCED by the extreme minority mob of transgender activists.
  • 1 0
 @ryetoast: I think they are too confused at this point to gel together and make a stand.
  • 33 7
 What a fucked time we live in.
  • 1 0
 People need to look into Luciferianism. This what is coming from the top down.
  • 23 0
 What’s the threshold for Strava... asking for a friend.
  • 3 1
 There's a boy I know with all the QUOMs near us, the threshold is how comfortable you are with lying
  • 1 0
 The threshold I went with for myself is when my female riding friends asked why I wasn't on the female leaderboards when they followed me on strava. Until then I had my gender listed as other and wasn't on either to my knowledge.
  • 25 6
 Sooooooo we have a lot of comments from dudes between the ages of 12 and 50, anyone from the transgender community wanna weigh in?
"edit" or if you were transgender or feel you could empathize with what a trans person might feel in this situation, what would your opinion be?
  • 16 4
 We tried, but it was futile and painful, so no.
  • 53 16
 Heya! Weighing in as a 23 year-old MtF trans bike courier. To put this right up front, I do believe that trans people should be allowed to race in their proper gender category. I'm fine with certain requirements for elite competition, and at present, testosterone levels seem to be the best metric by which to gauge how "woman" you are. This is the current consensus among sports officials, sports doctors, and most trans athletes. HRT changes yer dang bod; someone who has been on it for a couple years is much more biologically similar to a woman than to a man. Unfortunately, as shown in this comment section, most people don't know this. Anyway. I've raced xc, enduro, dh, ds, cross, tracklocross, alleycats, road; I ride dirt jumps; and I've done four Everestings. All of those (except the last Everesting) I did, or started to get involved in, before I started transitioning (about a year ago). Bikes have always been my biggest passion, and I truly can't imagine what I'd do without them. So therein lay one of my biggest hangups about starting HRT. Not only would my athletic performance drop markedly, but (until I could REALLY REALLY pass); were I to compete in women's categories, any win would be tainted by the assumption that it was due to some vestigial bit of male anatomy. Read: even when my hormones are at female levels for the proper amount of time, and my physiology has been dramatically altered, when no significant advantage remains, I'll still feel some reticence to compete as a woman, because of that bias, and because I don't fancy receiving death threats for my efforts. This is not a climate in which a man would fake transition just to swoop in and get some easy wins against the unsuspecting BiOlOgIcAl wOmEn. To the contrary, it's one in which trans cyclists are afraid to transition (for the record, I ride a Knolly. Ba-dum-tsss) for fear of being shunned from the sport and community that they live for.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people assume their ideas about trans people are grounded in FACTS and LOGIC and BASIC BIOLOGY, and that assumption makes them wary of any challenge to those ideas. As frustrating as this is, I can't really blame people for honest ignorance. I mean, unless you're
(A) An aspiring tran, (B) A friend/family member/partner of a trans person, or (C) Taking classes on gender n sexuality,
you probably haven't sought out information on trans people (hell, before My R e a l i z a t i o n, I didn't know much either). You probably have, however, skimmed past plenty of clickbaity headlines like "Trans Women are DESTROYING Women's Sports." Maybe you asked yourself "hang on, then why isn't women's MTB racing trans-dominated?" but just didn't follow through on finding the answer. And maybe even though you doubted that headline, it still stuck somewhere in your brain. So, to all the cis people in this thread, I would highly recommend that you examine your beliefs about trans people in sport. Ask yourself, how much of this is rooted in fact, and how much in subconscious biases and assumptions based on stuff like... that one class period your high school health teacher dedicated to "Well, sometimes people get sex changes. No idea why; I like my wing-wang just fine. pretty sure they're just really gay, i dunno," and that Futurama episode where Bender transitions just to dunk on the fembots at the Robolympics. Ask yourself if your viewpoint is coherent. Does it actually withstand scrutiny? For example, if you're saying people ought to compete in the category of their assigned-at-birth gender, you will have to contend with the fact that some trans dudes (people who transition female-to-male) are ripped af--making them compete against cis women would be unfair to both parties, and likely result in... some absurd shit like this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs Do that, being mindful of your sources and their biases, maybe talk to a trans person (I'm right here; I'll answer your questions if you're not a dick), probably watch some Contrapoints videos. Also hey, never hurts to read the whole article (and figure out what it means) before forming an opinion.
  • 20 15
 @getrad24-7: soooo, you ask people to challenge their assumptions about BASIC BIOLOGY, yet you havent provided any argument why such assumptions are wrong.. (because there aren't any) just a bunch of "you need to be open minded" bla-bla...
regarding your last argument, FtM trans people should not be allowed to race in women category either, even though they meet the "gender criteria" for this category... for a simple reason that they dont comply with antidoping requirements.. same way how a man is not allowed to race in male category when they are pumping tons of testosterone into their system...
  • 10 2
 @getrad24-7: taken from WADA: "This intrinsic value [of the sport] is often referred
to as “the spirit of sport”. It is the essence of Olympism, the pursuit of human excellence
through the dedicated perfection of each person’s talents."
Perfections of talents, not through perfection of bioengineering technologies.
  • 14 2
 @getrad24-7: I support you, I really do.

But on the point of competition I have to disagree with you.
  • 2 5
 @getrad24-7: Do you have any records that show how much your performance dropped after HRT? Strava segment times?

In timed sports like swimming, cycling and athletics, the women's WR is almost always 90% of the men's WR. A bit old, but I think it still applies (it checks out on the DH and Enduro races I looked at):
www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/the-golden-ratio-the-one-number-that-describes-how-mens-world-records-compare-with-womens/260758

I would suggest a similarly capable male and female professional should have a similar differential. If times before and after transition could be compared, and you are say > 12% slower, then I would say it is fair to compete.
  • 25 19
 @getrad24-7: Thank you for providing actual reasonable conversation. My apologies on behalf of all of the horribly un-empathetic men who think they are "protecting women" in this thread...
  • 14 3
 @bikekrieg:
Maybe you should just speak on behalf of yourself...
  • 13 4
 @getrad24-7: Thank you for being a beacon of sanity in this melee.
  • 13 0
 @getrad24-7: thank you for your good faith contribution to this discussion! I know in certain communities even posting that you are trans can have negative repercussions in the form of nasty messages etc. I commend your bravery and hope pinkbike is no such community. I think the point that a lot of people are missing here is that nobody transitions in order to try to win competitions. It’s a choice tied to your identity, not some desire to win competitions.

Of course the question of fairness in competition is a valid one and it’s simply so hard to come up with an empathetic and fair metric. Testosterone is a huge factor but not the only one of course. Forcing trans women to compete as men is simply cruel. What do you think of a testosterone threshold combined with a small handicap?
  • 11 3
 @getrad24-7: Thank you for your comment. I agree with you re: ignorance on this thread. I don't have a lot of experience with this topic but earlier this week I sat in on a presentation by The 519 on Fostering 2SLGBTQIA Inclusive Environments. Def opened my eyes to issues I was only vaguely aware of. Things like intersex and how we assign sex at birth based on a doctor looking at our genitalia. The amazing thing was I went home to talk to my 10 year old daughter about it and school had already taught all of this to her class; cis-men, two spirited... all that stuff. I imagine once our generation passes on this won't be the issue that it is today.

Anyway back on topic. I don't race- cause why not focus on fun. Competition is make-believe and people shouldn't take it so seriously. Haha

See y'all on the trails.
  • 4 1
 @BigAlfonz: I’ve mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, but Jillian Bearden is a rather good case study of an elite athlete who has competed both pre and post transition. The performance decreases she has experienced really don’t sound like someone retaining an unfair advantage, but I know some people will never be convinced www.denverpost.com/2017/08/07/first-female-transgender-pro-cyclist-colorado-classic-2017
  • 4 2
 @SnM-Ben: this comment gives me hope; thanks for that
  • 10 0
 @DrStairs: Thats the things that gets me the most. I have no problem with honest debate, so long as its rooted in facts. I certainly don't have the answers or the knowledge to come up with the answers. But idea that trans womens are "cheaters" or somehow trying to game the system is just ridiculous. No one would go through that type of life change, just to win at sports, knowing full well that if they do win they will just be ridiculed for it.
  • 4 4
 @getrad24-7: C'mon. You're the real hero on this thread.
  • 4 3
 @DrStairs: "hope pinkbike is no such community" haaaaa yeah, I had hoped so too. That's not gone well. Anyway:

Most research on the topic shows testosterone levels to be a pretty decent metric. I feel like people tend not to grasp that while, no, testosterone is certainly not the only factor, its level affects (and is thus indicative of changes in) many other biological factors. And these other factors do significantly impact one's performance.
See the link in my reply to @BigAlfonz. Women have to train longer and harder than men to achieve the same level of ability, and the same is absolutely true of trans women post-HRT.
  • 8 2
 @getrad24-7: where are the female transitioning to males? How are they doing competing against men?

Not very well I assume. Can't they just boost testosterone and get podiums? I mean if that's the defining factor what's the problem?

It's a one way street.

Many great points have been made why it isn't fair.
People have pointed out that one can see the difference in sex at 7 years old.

You just dismiss anything that doesn't line up in your favor. Then post a bunch of links that doesn't help your case at all.

I'm progressive left but there is a difference between having an open mind and saying that there is chance a the Earth is flat.

There is no chance. It isn't.
  • 3 1
 @reverend27:

Well during the soviet union years many female athletes doped with testosterone and roids. Male sex hormones are the main factor here. It's pretty obvious.
  • 2 0
 @sino428: Exactly!
  • 2 0
 @getrad24-7: but they never mention her results as a man. If you show he dominated as a male and then is really competitive as a female I can see that it shows difference is about the same. Now if you were a middle or back of the pack racer as a Male but now as female you very competitive then we have a potential issue. Not everyone will due to win but at the HS level this will happen for sure. Transitioning could be the difference between a college scholarship and no scholarship. There is the story about the CN HS track where guys were back of the pack and now dominating as women. Sure they don't have the funds to do all the level testing the pros get but we all know that if its allowed at the highest levels it will trickle down to lower levels with less controls. I cant say I know the best solution but we all should be able to admit this is going to become a growing problem that leagues and sports have to deal with.
  • 2 0
 @mfoga: Pre-transition, she was a Cat 1 road racer on the verge of going pro. In 2016, she pulled some middlin results as a Cat 2 woman. Far from “dominating.”

www.road-results.com/racer/136273

Here’s an article regarding her win at Tour de Tucson, which also talks about her performance testing a bit more:

tucson.com/news/local/columnists/steller/steller-transgender-cyclist-s-win-in-tucson-was-fairer-than/article_0851e258-2eb6-540a-8e60-1875e7bc836d.html

*this article isn’t perfect, but it does a good job of explaining what research has actually revealed in recent years. One minor correction: the author states that trans woman athletes simply need to be on HRT for a year and test at the designated level of testosterone. The actual requirement is a bit more stringent, requiring that an athlete test at those levels (which they might achieve after about a year) and remain at those levels for at least another year prior to competition.
  • 3 1
 @kabanosipyvo: That's cool. I do hope you'll come around, but ultimately I care more about the UCI's opinion than yours. Just here to try to inform, not argue.
  • 2 0
 @GZMS: "regarding [my] last argument..." I'd encourage you to read my last sentence. FTM people don't "meet the 'gender criteria' for this category." Their transition goals are to have testosterone levels in the standard male range.
  • 3 0
 @BigAlfonz: Not OP, but I'm a trans woman, currently 8 months on hormones. Hormones have been particularly effective on me because I'm XXY intersex and never had particularly high testosterone to begin with, but in the past 8 months my lifting ability has significantly decreased. Strava times are trickier because in that time I moved from living at 1000 ft. to living at 7800 ft. and my times back home when I got back are pretty comparable, but that's with a significant aerobic advantage from training at altitude. It's totally anecdotal, but I have difficulty lifting my bike above my head to get it on my roof rack now when I had no problem before.
  • 1 1
 @getrad24-7: yes, which is doping, and not allowed
  • 3 3
 @getrad24-7: so you trained as a man then transitioned and now want to race as a woman.

This is the problem.
  • 1 4
 @DrStairs: "nobody transitions in order to win competitions."
You really think thats 100% true now and forever? get real.
  • 30 11
 Amazing the amount of vitriol this debate sparks in the comment section.
Why so many people think the answer to this is black and white amazes me - in 2019 why on earth should we resign ourselves to Victorian ideas of gender definition??
We have the science people!!! Let's use it and work out a fair way forward for EVERYONE. Commendable that the UCI are doing just that by the sounds of it.
Is that such an intolerable concept @Beerguzzlinfool et al????
Also, full props to the admins for deleting comments - there's some really awful discrimination in this thread.
  • 5 2
 THANK YOU
  • 3 4
 Black and white - like if it has a motor its a motorcycle?
how many times did we hear that?

sorry but this time it is black and white because grey is causing reverse discrimination and it is not a solution to change the nature of the sport for a few peoples personal issues.
  • 3 4
 @DDoc: So just because binary genders have been the accepted 'norm' it should mean that this is an inherent and unalterable state of the world??
Moving through the centuries of human experience, gender has never been as hard and fast as it has been in the last 100 years. It's not an unequivocal law and shouldn't be treated as such.
Then again, you're a Doc so maybe you know best?
  • 24 3
 And grabbing my popcorn........okay. Go internet, go.
  • 6 1
 This is exactly what went wrong
  • 6 0
 I find it obsurd that person also believes they should be able to compete as a woman without any hormone therapy. Also funny of them to call out the female rider who decided to not hug up with them after they won.
  • 20 1
 ...scrolls straight to comments, this should be epic.
  • 15 1
 "Testosterone is the primary known driver of the performance gap between males and females and serum Testosterone is regarded as an acceptable proxy to distinguish male from female athletes."

It may or may not be the primary known driver, but in either case, there are many, many differences between men and women that apply to athletic performance. We are a sexually dimorphic species.
  • 16 1
 Meanwhile 40% of professional road riders associate with being asthmatics so it's fine for them to take steroids... especially if they are about to start a critical stage of the Tour de France.
  • 3 0
 Yes 'SIR' Bradley wiggins definitely has asthma......cheating cunt.
  • 37 21
 New poll: trans people should *not* be permitted to race in their non-biological class.
AGREE - upvote
DISAGREE - downvote

...AGREE - no vote ????
  • 18 4
 Consistently trans women move up in their respective ranks when they compete with females. But never in the history of sports has a trans male moved up in their relative positioning competing with the males. This is definitive proof that adjusting T levels alone is not the sole determinant ones sex. If you've ever coached children by about the age of 5 years old you see the males greatly outperforming the females. Before T even hits. One thing has been consistent throughout time, males abuse and take way opportunity from females. And this is no exception.
  • 17 2
 Hey Pinkbike thanks for continuing to drive this conversation and engage the community on these topics despite how much toxicity it generates, and how much more moderating work it requires out of you.
  • 15 0
 This issue is one more reason not to neither race nor follow racing and instead just go ride for fun.
  • 21 2
 As a trans person, yeah, I'd say this comment section is one more (well no, my only) reason to do that.
  • 10 4
 Yes. I used to enjoy events - it was a fun thing to do on the weekend. But after transition, it's no fun at all. These days, i ride alone, cuz cis mtb people mostly don't get it, and probably never will.
  • 5 1
 @olycgull: @getrad24-7 : It's totally depressing isn't. I used to race road and mtb back in the day (I was never that fast, but it was fun and I enjoyed the events). Since transition i just can't face it anymore. I pass reasonably most of the time and as a general rule no-one really notices me but I the prospect of the 'spanish inquistion' just for daring to turn up makes it a no go for me now-a-days. Ride on my own now too.
  • 3 1
 @slinky1: Fortunately the courier/alleycat race community in which I currently find myself is incredibly supportive of trans rights. Nothin quite like having your old-school messenger friend (who has ACAB tatted on his knucks, and who just casually told you about how the Glock he owns has sanded-off serial numbers and "probably a body on it") tell you how much he loves and supports you, and how bummed he is about the failure of his earnest attempt to explain your whole situation to a much-older-school friend of his. Alleycat races are great, the Resistance Racing Tracklocross series was great (Open and WTFNB categories, plenty of wonderful queer bike folks among the ranks of both racers and organizers), but yeah, sanctioned racing is a confusing+frustrating+alienating mess.
  • 3 0
 @olycgull: I would definitely ride with you.
  • 16 0
 Ballsy move
  • 20 5
 Ebikes!
  • 9 1
 Emopeds!
  • 19 6
 Never thought I'd see a post like this when I started riding in the 90s...it's like living inside a Mad Max movie...
  • 21 5
 More like Idiocracy.
  • 7 0
 2 men enter...
  • 1 2
 @savagelake: #poundmetoo
  • 6 0
 Clown world. Tolerate intolerance or be suppressed.
  • 9 0
 Good! There's a lot more to it than testosterone levels, but it's a start. Just below 10nmol/L is still a lot higher than the levels in an average woman.

But even a woman with above average testosterone levels will still be drastically physiologically different than a man with below average testosterone levels.
  • 18 9
 I feel truly sorry for all the female athletes. If anybody thinks lowering testosterone levels will solve the problem they are so wrong.
CIS?!?! Seriously? there is no CIS! There is just male or female. Live your life as you wish but don't impose stupid terminology on anybody.
  • 5 2
 "Member since Nov 7, 2019" wow what a strange coincidence, I wonder what brought you here.
  • 8 0
 So my local race series has someone born a man who competes in women’s. Without trying to sound like an a*shole this person is an absolute beast (very strong very tall very muscular for even a man) and it regardless of what they call them selfs a very talented rider. I’ve heard from a few women how it isn’t fair that someone 2-3 times there size is winning a lot of the pro women races and it discourages them from entering as they know they have no chance at a win. In a Category that struggles to find 10 racers I feel this isn’t fair.
  • 10 0
 things I never thought would be an issue for $100 Alex...

Such a complicated world we live in now.
  • 1 0
 Bro. I agree. (Btw, this is the best comment I’ve seen on here tonight)
  • 2 1
 @Shafferd912: I could identify myself as a lesbian, it would open up the field of ladies possibly. #singledadisaroughgo
  • 1 0
 @chileconqueso: No, I understand, I just would never foreseen this issue 5-10 years ago.
  • 11 2
 None of this bothers me at all. Do what you want. I've got bigger fish to fry and am not a pro athlete. There an unpopular opinion.
  • 13 6
 What a clusterf*ck - different sports adopting different standards driven not by the science but by kneejerk reactions.

If they're going to do this then all athletes should be tested, not just transgender.
  • 30 4
 Uh, numbnuts, testosterone levels ARE science. And why test biological females, so you feel better? Biological males that identify as females are still males, because they are XY and produce more testosterone and muscle mass than even an XX female with elevated testosterone.

Think about this: who is hurt by the current, scienceless rules? Real women that were born as women and don’t have the advantages of being a male. You know, the majority of people for whom this entire field was created for . Who benefits from the new rules? The same people. Who is “hurt?” The single XY that identifies as female?
Weird, so you think the majority should suffer so a single person can benefit and win? Hell, let’s just combine men and women so the problem is gone: women will pretty much always lose and men will win.

Should we also test XY, because there are men with low testosterone that are competing. Do they get to compete against women? Since that’s your logic.

Science my ass, you just want the convenient way that benefits less than 1% of the sport.
  • 2 0
 @nickfranko: THIS. Finally, an intellectual.
  • 7 0
 Does this also mean that natural born females can now take injections to raise their levels to the same? So basically take roids for years while competing to narrow there gap?
  • 10 4
 Okay, No more classes. Let's make everyone race everyone but all drugs, steroids, blood doping, hormone blocking agents, etc. are all now legal. This should be epic. Come on, it's about fairness right? Besides, I'm told the differences between genders is only because of societal norms so none of it really matters. Good luck all.
  • 3 1
 Um, what about XX and XY chromosomes, muscle mass, and other things? Those are quite substantial differences between Men and Women....
  • 7 0
 @Shafferd912: I'm being facetious but thanks for playing along.
  • 7 0
 THIS but with FCKNG LASER WEAPONS
  • 2 0
 @sburback: Did you know that 'facetious' is the shortest word in the English language that contains all vowels in alphabetical order?

The second shortest is a sitter if you start at the beginning of the alphabet.
  • 1 0
 @sburback: oh lol ok. I could tell about the open category, but wasn’t sure about the other part of your comment. Cheers!
  • 2 0
 @Shafferd912: I would judge but you really can't tell anymore. Haha It's a new world.
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: what about Y?
  • 6 0
 Looking forward to seeking 1 trans-man in history competing with XY men and getting the similar placement results racing with the men, as they formerly obtained racing with the women. In any sport.

It will never happen because T is not a singular factor that alters one's biological sex and that makes you the equivalent of your cis-male self.

XX class, and XY class. I'm willing to allow XX males (trans males) to juice to natural male T levels to assist with them competing against the XY cis-males. It won't help much honestly. They will be 5% faster than the females, and still 25% slower than the males.
  • 6 0
 Leave the Gender out of it and just ban any hormone therapy for all athletes. If you don't fall within the proper testosterone level to compete with the women, naturally, without drug use, you compete in the Mens/open category.

Whenever you allow certain athletes to mess with hormone therapy fair goes out the window.
Man, woman and everything in between, same rules, NO DRUGS
Thats fair for everyone.
  • 5 0
 where are the comments Katrina Strand and Kelly Sherbaninn ( spelling ) and all the other girls that raced with Michelle Dumaresq back in the early 2000s.. hmm i would be keen to see what they have to say in this day and age... cause it happened and they boycotted racing for the most part ..
  • 5 1
 Yes, the first transgender woman that was DH national champion. A few of the pro women say they support transgender athletes, but I wonder how they would feel if they lost sponsorship and their world champs place because they were beaten by a trans woman?
  • 6 0
 @iamamodel: to say anything other than "I support trans athletes" loudly and clearly gets you labelled as a bigot and 'deplatformed' quicker than you can blink.
  • 15 7
 "I'm not transphobic BUT..." = "I'm not racist BUT..."

So many sad comments, sad world we live in.
  • 10 4
 Yes, its trully sad that when making an argument , we need to have this disclaimer at the beginning of the sentence.. because otherwise the pro-trans crowd just automatically labels us bigots and ignores the argument we made altogether. Well, they do it anyway, but at least we are trying to make our voices heard..
  • 5 0
 According to this release, testosterone is the most significant marker that can identify athletic performance levels. If that is true, requiring an athlete to restrict their testosterone levels to compete discourages them to be the best they can be. Further restrictions which may be applied in the future accomplish the same task. This is an example of a problem with no good solution. I think the least bad solution is to exclude transgender women athletes from professional levels of competition. Some people have conditions which force them to be excluded from certain activities. Sorry you got a bad hand.
  • 9 1
 TUCI - Transgender Union Cycliste Internationale
  • 13 5
 This is the beginning of the end for Professional sports.
  • 1 0
 That's another interesting debate : "Why does sport ever became professional in the first place ?"
  • 11 3
 what stage of capitalism is this?
  • 5 1
 So Testosterone is the canary in the coal mine. You can identify as a woman and be cleared to compete as one even though with the new rules you can still have T levels twice as high as the biological female limit and they still consider that fair. Seriously? But you can also dope for xx number of years on natural T but because todays society wants to believe that there is no biological difference between a man and a woman you can just take some drugs and once your levels are down to double the biological female limit you are good to go and those xx number of years that you have been doping are forgotten. Right.... we are doomed. Stupid monkeys.
  • 7 0
 How will this affect women with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS)?
  • 29 2
 It shows the flaw in trying to use testosterone at all for competition eligibility, let alone an artificial cutoff of 10nmol/L. Most women are significantly below that, but some women are naturally higher than that. So does this require women to suppress their testosterone too, along with men who wish to compete as women? Can other women "juice up" to just under 10nmol/L, or whatever the new level is? Can women go over that level in the off season to train, then let it drop back down to the cutoff, like a wrestler or boxer cutting weight?

All of this also assumes athletic ability is solely tied to testosterone levels and nothing else, a position that is unscientific.
  • 3 0
 They aren't Transgender so it won't.
  • 3 1
 @nagaredama: ask some of the track athletes and see if they agree.
  • 1 0
 good question…??
  • 9 2
 Came straight to the comments.. was not disappointed
  • 21 14
 wow, the PB censors are going crazy with this one.
  • 8 1
 Moore working OT!
  • 4 0
 weird that peeps downvote this. i always assumed the folks complaining about their comment disappearing were doofuses that did not know about the threshold. now i wonder if they were right.
  • 3 2
 @savagelake: Very triggered, sir. But I assume this personal attack will be tolerated. I will head off to my safe space now.
  • 6 1
 They really aren't though... Unless there was some truly atrocious stuff in here before?
  • 5 4
 @getrad24-7: they are. i suggested googling a certain athlete on the podium to see the physical differences, and they tossed it. same with jawzzy3. i don't think either of our comments were that negative, but they had someone's name in them.
  • 5 0
 That would be okay. If they had below 5nmol right through puberty and into adulthood. You can't undo years of development differences that high testosterone provides
  • 6 1
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzg9QtQelR8

doesnt matter how young the testosterone levels are suppressed at, the unchangeable genetic differences still prove very very significant.
  • 3 0
 I like the technical and biological reasons for trying to make the competitors play on as even of a playing field as possible, nobody cares if they’re man or woman, just that a human is racing on an even playing field against other humans, all we want is good and fair competition, that’s why women’s classes are separated in the first place. Good article and good effort to start making things fair.
Then Pinkbike invites the worst comments by saying that misgendering is a personal attack and that using someone’s name is bannable because “trans advocates and social media said using someone’s name is a slur” inviting all of pinkbike to start a political hogwash about who deserves what names. That’s not what this article is supposed to be about at all. Like I said, I don’t care if they’re a “man or woman”, that’s not what racing is about. Leave the politics out and the competition in.
  • 3 2
 We had to put that into all articles about transgender racers, because the first few articles were full of absolutely horrible vitriolic "jokes" that (giving commenters the benefit of the doubt) they didn't realize were really offensive.
  • 11 5
 So feminist fought all these decades for "equality" just to have men beat them at their own sporting events...
Sounds legit!
  • 7 5
 Hey, just so ya know, most feminists these days believe in trans rights.
  • 3 0
 I love the comment F.U.B.A.R......this is the perfect definition of the world we have created....keep it simple people..use common sense when it comes to athletic competition...we need to set boundaries when it comes to a level playing field...not everyone will be happy but thats life...PERIOD
  • 6 3
 When are we going to stop pretending cisgender issues are normal instead of the mental health problem they are?
If you're born a man and become a woman it's not your fault, but you need therapy and help, not your own special snow flake slot in the UCI.
  • 3 2
 Lmao you should probably learn what cisgender actually means. Whole lotta cisgender issues in this thread though, I tell ya.
  • 1 0
 @getrad24-7: I do know, however I can see that my comment is confusing as I switch from cis to trans half way through, should have said 'gender issues in general'or some other thing
  • 2 1
 @Bahh: That’s okay, reactionary garbage does tend to come off as confusing and incoherent.
  • 1 0
 @getrad24-7: haha get a life mate, if going against the evolutionary need to breed isn't mental illness I don't know what is.
Reactionary is the LGBTQI movement.
  • 6 0
 Aren't there already a few inclusive races for trans people? Like Trans New Zeland, TransBC etc.
  • 4 0
 This got a chuckle from me. Kudos on making a trans joke that's actually funny.
  • 3 0
 There is so much us humans try to change in the world that as society we have to accept . In the last few years we have been forced to accept changes that I'm struggling to deal with . Social media says I have to be accepting but I'm really struggling with the fact a human being born man or women wants to change there sex.i really don't mean to offend and I promise you Im not un educated on the subject as I have tried to understand it.but everything I've ever been taught in life and at school goes against this . I just don't think you can mess with the sex you are born and have everyone in society accept it . I watched a documentary on a then teenager who changed sex and now as an adult now has massive regret and concerns that need to be taken seriously. Again apologies it is not my intention to upset anyone.
  • 2 3
 Okay, maybe not "uneducated," so much as misinformed by internet media that confirms your biases (or that The Grand Algorithm thinks fits with them). Actual cases of people detransitioning do exist, but are extremely rare. They're also generally motivated more by discrimination than by a sudden realization that they're actually cis. Basically, in certain circumstances, people are forced to go back into the closet for fear of harassment, murder, being denied employment and/or housing, etc. The overwhelming consensus though, is that the closer trans people get to living as their true selves, the happier they are. We're adults, we can make our own decisions. For myself and my trans friends, transitioning has been the right path. The path of inaction, of "just living as a [gender assigned at birth]," leads to far more regret. This is the point at which one might, in good or bad faith, bring up trans suicide rates as if to say "the decision to transition makes people suicidal. Don't transition, you'll want to kill yourself." Hidden in that argument is an incorrect assumption about the nature of this decision. Deciding to transition isn't deciding to be trans, it's deciding to do something about it.

If you're not comfortable with trans people, well, that's understandable. Society is still overwhelmingly unaccepting of trans people. School curriculums tend not to address trans issues, and when they do, it's rarely in a comprehensive or meaningful way. And, up until just recently, when we became trendy and that trendiness got commodified, there's not been much positive representation of us in pop culture. Good info on The T r a n s E x p e r i e n c e can be frustratingly scarce, and when searching for it, it can be quite easy to be duped by anti-trans rhetoric masquerading as "gender-critical." Even I, AN ACTUAL REAL LIFE TRANS PERSON, still have a fair amount of that stuff baked into my subconscious. These preconceived notions can be unlearned though. And ultimately, that's gonna be the solution to your problem, because we're not going away. It's on all of us to examine and question our biases, lest we use them to justify harming those unlike ourselves. I hope that helps? Idk, if you actually want to know more, just ask and I'll answer (w/ sources).
  • 9 5
 pinkbike is all about the drama and negaive news these days: depression, suicide, big business trademarks / suing, stolen bikes, and transgender racing
  • 8 1
 If you prefer applesauce, there's Mountain Bike Action.
  • 8 3
 So if I get fake tits and hair, keep my worthless dick, I can race against women?? Still would lose to them all haha.
  • 3 1
 I think if it becomes a consistent trend that said trans athlete is winning and dominating at almost every round it should be taken into account their physical differences. But if that athlete is still competitive and gets varying results at most rounds it is perfectly fair that they compete in the category that they were born to be in! If the athlete however wins and gets good results but does not move up in category that should be looked into as well. It is a pretty difficult situation for people in athletics organizations but only the fairest outcome can possibly be broached. dumb words from a 15 yr old but it's an interesting situation! also at nationals dual slalom qualifying, I racked up for my run and ended up going against Jill Kinter and all I can say is that even though I'm in a cat 1 men's category she is f*cking fast, faster than 95% percent of people on pinkbike that's for sure!
  • 2 0
 Nah, smart words from a 15 year old. Most of the dumb shit seems to be coming from the older folks. And that gives me hope that change is coming soon.
  • 2 0
 A good step, if only "Testosterone is the primary known driver of the performance gap between males and females and serum Testosterone is regarded as an acceptable proxy to distinguish male from female athletes." wasn't total bs...
Just lowering testosterone has little to no impact on the development of the body during adolescence..
  • 2 2
 Cool theory, can you please cite a credible source for this claim of BS? Or at least explain, demonstrating even the barest understanding of how HRT works, why you think T is not an acceptable proxy.
  • 3 1
 There is always going to be grey areas, there is that transgeneder track cyclist who is built like a brick sh*thouse compared to the other ladies she races against but Kate Weatherely from all acccounts was a petite, feminine dude, now she's an average sized female. It's not as if Brook decided to strap on a pair of t*ts and comptete with the women as he wasn't getting as much podium action as he'd like!?
  • 2 0
 Average testosterone nanomoles/ L for women are ,52 to 2,43 NMOL/L ,
So even if the UCI drop it to below 5 NMOL/L it’s still more than double the Average,
So at the current acceptable level of 10 NMOL/L all natural born women who’ve competed against transgender athletes have been robbed of earned results by the UCI,
Come on UCI,,, stop madness!
  • 5 3
 Being a cis female athlete, then and now, there are always cis women built differently and stronger than me and the only thing I can do about it is train my a** off. I think a lot of uninformed people assume the motivations of a trans athlete are to "get more podiums". Should they train less so they don't achieve their potential for fear of trolls?
  • 5 0
 How about if you can physically have a baby you can compete in womens field. If not get lost.
  • 2 0
 A handful of scientific studies linked here:
savewomenssports.com/science

I found this one interesting:
Changes in muscle strength and muscle cross-sectional area following cross-sex hormone treatment
Anna Wiik 1 , Mats Holmberg 1 , Tommy Lundberg 1 , Mats Lilja 1 , Daniel Andersson 1 , Stefan Arver 1 , Thomas Gustafsson 1 1. Karolinska Institutet



"Background Many biological differences seen in men and women are driven by relative differences in estrogen and testosterone levels. In transgender individuals, gender-affirming treatment includes inhibition of endogenous sex hormones and subsequent replacement with the cross-sex hormones. Yet, the effect of this treatment on functional muscle strength and mass remains poorly described. The aim of the current study was to assess the effects of an altered sex hormone pattern on muscle strength and cross-sectional area.



Methods Twelve transgender individuals, 6 trans women and 6 trans men who had been accepted to start gender-affirming medical intervention, were recruited. Knee extensor and flexor muscle strength was assessed using isokinetic dynamometry at three different angular velocities (0, 60 and 90 °/s). The assessments were made at four time points: (T1) before treatment initiation, (T2) four weeks after initiated gonadal hormonal down regulation but before hormone replacement, (T3) three months after hormone replacement therapy and (T4) eleven months after hormone replacement therapy. The cross-sectional area and radiological density of the thigh muscles were assessed by CT scans performed bilaterally at the midpoint of femur of each subject at baseline and after 11 months of cross-sex hormone treatment.



Results and Conclusions Muscle area increased 17% in trans men (p0.001) with an 8% increase in radiology density after eleven month of cross-sex hormone treatment. No change was seen in trans women. There were significant (P0.05) group x time interactions at each angular velocity. Thus, while the trans men increased their strength over the four time points, strength levels were generally maintained in the trans women. When averaging the three strength tests, knee extension (16%) and knee flexion (34%) strength increased from T1 to T4 in trans men. The corresponding changes in the trans women group were -6% and 0%, respectively. CONCLUSIONS: These results show that ~1 year of cross-sex hormone treatment results in increased muscle strength in trans men. Cross-sectional area and radiological density is also increased after testosterone treatment. However, trans women maintain their strength levels as well as cross-sectional area and radiological density throughout the treatment period. We conclude that the altered sex hormone pattern induced by gender-affirming treatment deferentially affect muscle strength in trans men vs. trans women."
  • 3 1
 From the full text of the study: "We acknowledge that this study was conducted with untrained individuals and not transgender athletes. Thus, while this gave us the important opportunity to study the effect of the cross hormone treatment alone, and as such the study adds important data to the field, it is still uncertain how the findings would translate to transgender athletes undergoing advanced training regimens during the gender-affirming intervention. It is also important to recognize that we only assessed proxies for athletic performance, such as muscle mass and strength. Future studies are needed to examine a more comprehensive battery of performance proxies in transgender athletes."

Additionally: "This article is a pre-print and has not been certified by peer review" www.biorxiv.org/content/what-unrefereed-preprint
  • 2 0
 This study by Joanna Harper would be a bit more applicable, as it deals with trans athletes: pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e6a/bd2c1e03ba88e9ac8da94ea1d69ff3f4878a.pdf?_ga=2.254440527.659551599.1550520323-1192624875.1550520323
  • 3 0
 @getrad24-7: I read the article you linked above as I am certainly open to the idea I may come across some concrete evidence that will help me have an informed opinion before I open my mouth. But I have to ask, did you read the article you linked? Because if you have I doubt you would use it to hinge your argument on.
The very first sentence of the Method Statement reads as follows, “Race times from eight transgender women runners were collected over a period of seven years and, when possible, verified.” Wow. And that’s just the start. The sample size was very small. Participants were sourced online, 2 of which would only participate anonymously. The participants submitted their own anecdotal evidence, one of them comparing rcd times from when they were 26 years old to when they were 53 years old. I know they were using age grading, but Jesus that’s a stretch.

And that study only focussed on long distance running, we are talking about mountain biking. The performance between men and women in endurance sports is much closer than in power sports. And mountain biking, particularly the gravity disciplines, is a power sport.

I haven’t fully read the article @davidcoleman linked, but at least it seems to have some recorded tangible results.
  • 1 1
 @riderseventy7: Hey, fair enough. It’s admittedly not the most compelling. I’ll just drop this here and be out: youtu.be/buGIShx4ofs
  • 14 10
 Hold Up........Kate Weatherly is transgender?.....Now I have to question my left hands sexual orientation.
  • 21 17
 Fortunately for you, trans women are women and liking them doesn't make you gay. This comment implies you were attracted to Kate Weatherley as a woman. And to the best of my knowledge, finding a woman attractive is pretty damn straight. For more info, check out this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbBzhqJK3bg
  • 9 3
 @getrad24-7:

I disagree! Liking women is pretty ‘gay’ if you think about it... Soft features... Acting all feminine... Stylish clothing... What sort of red-blooded straight manly man would want anything to do with that??

*sarcasm*
  • 12 3
 @alreadyupsidedown: yeah and... cis dudes? They've got a penis ON THEIR BODY, and they're just like, cool with that. Like, they look in the mirror, see a dick, and think "nice." Hella gay if you ask me.
  • 3 6
 @getrad24-7:

Yeah. I legitimately do not understand other straight men who are obsessed with their own penises. I mean it’s good to love yourself, I just don’t get the appeal of that aspect. (Srsly)

End of the day, being attracted to anything is pretty gay when it comes down to it... The only truly straight activity for a man’s man is to exclusively hang with dudes while not talking to each other.
  • 8 0
 @alreadyupsidedown: I'm not obsessed with my penis - I'm obsessed with what I can do with it.
  • 1 0
 @alreadyupsidedown: I suppose when you gotta put your underwear on strategically, adjust and readjust, pay attention to aim, sit strategically ("manspread") and are able to write your name in the snow...
  • 1 0
 This is interesting to see a figure on it, At the current 10n/mol level I dare say there will be male competitors on the UCI stage with undiagnosed pathological hypogonadism or diseases to the hypothalamus or pituitary gland that by blood test would be free to compete in women's competition. It's a lot more common than you think.

What needs to be tested is LH and FSH, these are the hormones that will dictate a performance increase.
  • 6 1
 So you're saying there's a chance!?
  • 16 12
 i always wondered which chamois they wear. like, do they still wear the bibs/chamois of their original sex or what?
  • 2 0
 I know you're probably joking, but hey, this is something I can answer easily enough: up to this point, I've just stuck with men's bibs cuz they're what I have (and I'm a bike courier, which doesn't afford me the largest budget for kit) and the chamois is designed with dick in mind (be that girl dick or boy dick). Chamois aside, bibs are pretty unisex by design. Some are longer, some are shorter, but it's not like you can take one look at them and definitively say who they're made for. That said, I do go for women's jerseys/jackets, as the cut is discernibly more feminine.
  • 5 0
 Trans genders just need their own class
  • 3 0
 Create a NEW category. While we're at it create a category for people actually doping so we can really see just how fast a human can go on a bike!!
  • 6 5
 Two words sum up my view on trans athletes: BROCK LESNAR. Lets say he went back to the UFC but decided to identify as female, who the hell would think it's fair for any woman to fight Brenda Lesnar? Biological advantage is a fact, not abuse and not sexism, just a fact. This is going to be detrimental to the careers and podium rankings of the finest female riders the sport has produced in a very short time if something is not done about it. Down votes don't bother me, that's incel shit, and I don't argue on line, so your replies won't be reciprocated. This is unfair, that is all, see 'Rachel McKinnon' if you disagree.
  • 1 0
 Question re fairness: In the name of fairness and inclusion, how do we measure the desire/right of a sport level male athlete who transitions into an elite level women's field (in a short window if time) thus affecting women who might otherwise rank higher or qualify for teams, sponsorship etc?
I am not trying to be inflammatory. This is something I can't get my head around.
  • 1 0
 Kate Weatherly is the only transgender woman in professional DH at the moment, right? So who should she compete against if she was not allowed to compete against naturally born women? Would she have her own race at every World Cup weekend and automatically win? Or should she start in the men's race? Or would she not be allowed at all to compete?
  • 7 1
 Probably just race against the dudes ????‍♂️
  • 1 0
 Even though we could get all the measurements leveled within reason, is this still enough?
Let's say we index our maximum potential at 100, and our psychological state is going to determine how much of this we reach (your body is able to ride before you've been on one). And assume with loads of training we get to perform at 85% of our maximum capacity, where our psyche determines that's all we can learn.
Now after the transition, let's say T, bone-density and other variables above make our maximum (physical) potential drop with 10% to an index of 90, our psyche still remembers to use 85% of our former maximal potential. Biological females will never have (had) the ability to train towards a higher maximum physical potential.
All things considered, this is a very difficult topic and I'm not sure we will ever find a solution, but this might be the reality we are going to have to live with..
  • 5 1
 Am I allowed to express an opinion on this without catching a warning for "transphobia", whateverthef*ck that is anyway? lol
  • 4 3
 Pinkbike trying to be Principal PC over here now.... f*ck... lol
"please don’t violate our terms of use, which state that any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated."

You guys monitor your comments sections about as well as a blind guy monitors the birds flying by.... I see this type of behavior happen everyday in some form on PB.
Either Actually uphold the rules you have put in place or just let it be the the male heavy toxic comment cesspool it is. Trying to protect yourself as a company and make it look like you care about what happens in the comment section is just hilarious. Ask the owner of this company if he truly cares whats said in the comments... Because the true answer is he like the chaos and is in no rush to fix it.
  • 2 0
 It is not just testosterone but physiology, the muscular structure of the man is very different from the woman, even with treatments it has no modification and a transgender will always be stronger than a woman.
  • 3 3
 Heya. So, I’ve mentioned this elsewhere (with sources), but testosterone (in this case, a decrease thereof) actually does dramatically impact physiology. Speaking from personal experience: I’ve been on HRT for about a year now. I’ve trained harder this year than any year prior, and yet... my muscle mass has decreased, the PR I set on a segment in April is now out of reach, and my muscular endurance for stuff like pump track riding is dropping.
  • 1 0
 Make a 3rd category with it’s own blood level limits. Why is that so hard? Fear, that’s why. Fear of being called a bigot or a nazi or transphobic. So instead we deny facts and science and care more about feelings. Austin Powers said it best - “that’s no woman, that’s a man... man”.
  • 8 4
 i idenitify as a 10 year old i think i should be allowed to race kids if you think thats wrong your a racist.
  • 1 0
 What about a new category of transgender or whatever they want call it after and agreement to avoid phobia?. All compete between them female being males and males being females, so they can complain about the same problem from one side to the another. That is a fair category, they has they differences between genders (which we don't have) so we keep competitions in categories of female and male like before without DNA problems and the other new category can solve their differences in between. We make the sport more inclusive but everyone in their gender site.
  • 1 0
 I just want to leave one more thing here. In case any transgender individuals are reading through the comments. And they are because a few responded to one of mine. I don't know what is right in competitive racing. But I would happily ride with as any guy or girl, gay, straight, bi, cis, trans. Let's ride and socialize and keep it fun and friendly.
  • 1 0
 How about women, born as women and completley natural, that have a high level of testosterone by nature? They have the luck that they are probably stronger than other women with more moderate levels of testosterone but would be forced to either not compete or take testosterone lowering medication to fullfill the UCI rules. Thats crazy!
  • 2 1
 Each to their own and all that, seriously do what you like, live how you want. I have time for everyone who isn't a bell end, I don't care if you were born a man but present as a women or vice versa, whether you like men, women or neither, to me it doesn't matter.

What I don't entertain is what I call the 'attention me' contingent of any group, those who go out of their way to make a big thing of whatever their deal is, whether thats being gay, being trans etc. etc. eg - 'look at me I;m so hard done by'

I have seen a few comments on here RE: labels, please stop labelling others. Refer to yourself as you please, I am happy for you to simply call yourself female if that is how you identify, likewise call yourself trans if you like, but don't call me cis or we have a problem. It'd be like me calling someone who is transgender he-she, technically correct but not exactly complementary or even neutral, it is inflammatory and unecessary.

In my humble opinion labelling causes much of the friction between different groups of people, how you refer to yourself is not the issue. The root of this discussion is whether certain athletes have an unfair advantage, if so what can be done to ensure all athletes in the class are competing on a level playing field. When it comes to transgender athletes, surely in some sports there is an advantage, in others a disadvantage and therefore there can not possibly be a 'one size fits all' solution to creating equality across a mixed field of competing athletes.

Would transgender athletes like to compete in their own category? or would this be demeaning? I genuinely don't know but perhaps someone can shed some light on this.

Is transgender a form of mental disability, previously it was considered to be so, earlier this year the World Health Organisation decided that it should not be considered a mental disability. I would consider this to be a move away from labelling, as I noted earlier I feel labelling is unhelpful at the best of times.

So if not a mental illness what is the root of 'transgender'?
  • 1 0
 I once heard it could be linked to testosterone (or something) secretion during the early stage of pregnancy.
There should be enough to make a man or not enough to make a woman, but maybe in some rare case it falls in between, there's enough to shape the body of a man but not enough to shape the mind. Well it's not that simple :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality
  • 1 0
 Just like racing cars, there's stock classes and mod/unlimited classes. Nothing wrong with modifying something from stock configuration, it's just not in the stock class anymore. Throw the dopers in and you've got 4 classes now with more inclusion.
  • 2 1
 I swear. I think that there is a high percentage of people commenting here, that at another time in history, would be the first people in line saying burn the witch, rear of the bus, and no votes for women. Kinda kidding.

Let's begin by getting this out of the way. I am transgender. Whatever that means to people. For some reason, it seems to scare a lot of the population. Not sure why. They see me as a perversion, a threat to their children in restrooms and schools. A deluded person who believes they were born in the wrong body, when anyone can see that you are whatever the doctor and chromosomes say you are. Well.... not so much.

I am actually just pretty much like everyone else. It unfortunately took me far longer to come out to the world than I had wished for as a child, but I am finally happy in life. I have a lot of friends who stood by me when I spoke to them about what was coming. My family has stood behind me, and I seem to get along with anyone I meet. Just like most everybody else. Worked for the same company for 40 years. Also, I enjoy biking.

Won't bore you with my life story. I did want to bring up a couple of things though.

First, I do not know Kate Weatherly. However, I am very impressed by her. I live my life on the sideline. Occasionally, I hear and see people commenting or pointing at me, maybe staring at a restaurant. Usually, I just smile and go on with what I am doing. I cannot imagine the things that Kate and many other people that have chosen to live their dream in the spotlight have to put up with. It takes a lot of courage (which I did not have) to do what they do, and I am happy that she is following her dream. Hope you heal up Kate and get back out doing what you love.

Second, I would like to point out something. I travel as much as I can to mountain bike and plan on a lot more after I retire. In all of my trips, I have yet to meet another trans girl biking. I am sure that there are quite a few out there, as it is a large country, but it is a very small group. I can only imagine that the amount of transgender women that have the competitive will, fitness and desire to race at a top level world class event is a very, very small number. I can assure you that I did not start thinking about how once I was able to identify as a woman, I can rule the bike racing world.

Mostly, I ride bike to get away, scare myself a little, enjoy the outdoors and ride with friends (old and new). I have raced in three enduros in my life, all in the last year or so. I enjoyed them. Two were local events that were not super competitive and were end of year events. One was a women only event. Such is my life, that in just about every type of event or trip I take, I will contact the organizers or campground, etc. and explain my situation to be sure that they do not have a problem with me entering the event, or using the campground bathroom and shower, or a problem with trans people in general. Happily, so far, no one has said no. If they do happen to say no, that is fine also, I can go elsewhere. Every woman I have raced with has been very nice and friendly, and happy that I was racing with them. I have not been without a bike in my life since I was about six years old, so I am a pretty good rider. Not fantastic, but pretty good. When I entered the women's only race this year, I decided to try expert in my age group and finished about where I expected to. Out of six, I placed fifth. Also in the race was Jill Kintner in the Pro division. I ran the same course she did. As would be expected, she beat my time in four stages by about seven and a half minutes. It would have been fun to just watch her, and maybe after I retire, I will. My point being, I guess, is that despite all the hand wringing that everyone is bringing up here, just because a trans woman decides to race, does not mean she is going to dominate a race. There are some very, very good woman riders out there, and the young girls starting out today are going to be amazing.

Sorry this is so long, didn't mean to take up too much space. I honestly do not know what the answer is as far as professional racing and how we trans women fit in to it. I just thought I would put something a little nicer into the comments instead of just the usual negativity. After nearly sixty years on this globe, I have found that life is not fair. If it was, there would be a lot less war, less kids getting shot down in schools, no current administration trying to make it legal to fire me just for being transgender, and of course I would have been born......

All you can do is try to live with the rules that are there, and roll with the punches.

Also, go out to a movie this week and see JoJo Rabbit.
  • 2 1
 My conclusion after two weeks of thinking and 270 comments! MY VIEW IS:
Transwomen, especially those who do not take any testosterone mitigation steps, retain some, significant male advantages in regards to speed, strength, VO2 max (lung processing ability) and blood volume. and a kinesiological advantage on the bike; i.e. more direct vertical alignment of the hip socket and femur yielding slightly more power, through less rocking on the saddle left-to right, better leverage through mechanical advantage with a more efficient moment arm(leverage). Testosterone therapy, nor surgery will not mitigate this advantage.
Those individuals born with XY sex chromosomes and male reproductive organs are male
Those individuals born with XX sex chromosomes and female reproductive organs are female.
Therefore it is not fair (IMHO) for transwomen to compete in ciswomen’s cycle races because they possess an unfair advantage
I deny there is a human right to race, there is a human right to cycle but not to A cycle. there IS a right to pursue racing. Insofar as events are someone else’s creation and property, no claim upon that property exists.
“rights are moral, social precepts defining and sanctioning a person’s freedom of action. this is essentially John Lock’s definition.This is why Jefferson wrote specifically of the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As core human rights from which all other rights flow, but he purposefully did not delineate property rights. For the sake of brevity and the fact that point is highly complex.
My preferred solution regarding transwomen cycle racing; I and will encourage the IOC and UCI etc. to proscribe distinct categories for transwomen. In the absence of such a race they may race in the men’s category. promotors should be free to offer the categories as they choose.
Philosophically; wishing or fervently asserting something does not make it so. A person may declare fervently they are a woman. But the facts remain to the contrary. Consequently, I should not be able to declare I am 80 years old and demand to compete in the +70 master’s category. People know that would be patently unfair.
Certainly trans people retain all human rights before the law.
As fellow humans. We should treat such individuals with kindness, compassion (but without being disingenuous or condescending) and we should encourage acceptance to best mitigate bullying, hurtful language, disparagement, and to try to mitigate the tragic suicide levels withinIs my thinking to crude or blunt or binary? I am particularly concerned with fairness regarding ciswomen in ciswomen races.
Men possess advantages in the activities of chess, poker, bridge, (yes there are gender categories in these cerebral pursuits) As far as I can tell the reason is because men tend to be more aggressive and possess more risk tolerance and exhibit less fear. I think this assertion is factually based. This is why there are separate categories in these non-athletic activities.
  • 1 0
 I think what really needs to happen is to forget about the testosterone limits and focus on puberty. I think a trans woman who went through male puberty does have an unfair advantage and should not be able to compete against other women. It's harsh and extremely unfair to those people who didn't get a chance thanks to the way society works but I think it's the only line in the sand that actually makes sense.
  • 6 5
 Makes me wonder what Ravenel's testosterone level tests at... since we're going there. I'm a fan but, she consistently destroyed the EWS women's field. Food for thought, maybe she just trains harder than the rest.
  • 11 24
flag raybao (Nov 6, 2019 at 16:46) (Below Threshold)
 Are you insinuating that Cecile Ravanel is either:

1) Doping and/or,
2) Not a biological woman?

Simply based on her race results? If so, you're truly an idiot.
  • 7 1
 pretty fair question. if they are just over 5, they gonna make her take drugs? DQ her?

side note: cecile vs. isabeau will be the best EWS contest next year.
  • 9 0
 no, he's insinuating that the range is large and you'll have people exceed it on various measures from time to time. Like Phelps' feet.
  • 1 0
 @heinous: exactly Smile , u get it. that being said, i do assume she is a biological woman, and i doubt there will ever be testing needed for her t levels. still makes me wonder tho.
  • 2 0
 @savagelake: it sure will be, Isabeau will really have her work cut out for her if cecille is back in top form!
  • 2 0
 Some women have naturally occuring high testosterone, the South African 800m runner Caster Semenya springs to mind. Miles faster than most of the field, never been a man, but is bigger, stronger, and faster than most of the other women she's competing with. It's definately a huge advantage but is it unfair if it's natural or just good luck having those genetics? Is it possible to test the difference between naturally occuring high hormone levels and those achieved through some sort of treatment or doping?
  • 5 0
 @fielonator: Caster Semnya is actually an XY female (it happens and has been known to happy for a long time). She unfortunatly lost her court case and now has to comply with a 5 nm/l blood limit. I don't agree with this ruiling. Semenya is a woman and that is just her natural advantage. Makes me mad they're trying to punish women with natural abilities and making them adapt to the trans female testosterone limit.

I'm a big supporter of trans people (my gf is trans) but this ruiling seems super unfair to someone who was born a woman, has been a woman all her life, didn't even know she was XY till people questioned her results.

Oh and there is a test to tell whether the hormone levels are natural or through doping.
  • 4 0
 Let the actual riders of each class take a silent vote.
  • 7 4
 So much debate. You should just compete in the gender you were born as. There are only two genders, men and women. Simple.
  • 4 0
 Comment section is lit tonight.
  • 3 0
 I haven't seen any women transitioned to men break any world records. Play fair or don't play at all.
  • 2 0
 I wonder why are there no trans males competing on the men's cat? And why is it not such an issue as trans women on the women's cat?

(sarcasm in case you didn't notice)
  • 1 1
 This topic/controversy came up a few years ago when a woman (born as a man) entered into the sport of kickboxing and started DOMINATING her opponents left and right.

To me this felt so wrong on so many levels.

If men fight in the mens category and women fight in the womens category then why can't transgenders fight in a transgender category? Yes, I get that a transgender's main goal is to become 100% opposite of whatever they were born as but the simple notion they had to swap defines them as trans. Am I wrong?
  • 2 0
 P sure we're talking about mountain bikes here though.
  • 1 0
 @getrad24-7: I know smart a$$.

But I don't think you understand that It's the same principle. It is seen as an unfair advantage.

I'm not against people's choice but I am about fairness in all sports and competitions.
  • 1 0
 "• The inclusion of trans women within the female category should be promoted with meaningful eligibility standards, provided it does not create intolerable unfairness"

So there is a tolerable level of unfairness?
  • 3 0
 Im just waiting for Amanda Batty to come on here and loose here sh*t calling everybody transphobic!
  • 1 0
 I came here to read about bikes, now just reading BS. Screw y'all, If anyone needs me I'll be in the woods...on a bike..where everyone else should be...actually just came to troll ????. Much Love PB
  • 9 8
 My question is...how come those trans folk always go for the name Kate. What is up with the Kate name choice, geez you'd think they'd be more creative.
  • 4 2
 How about start a new class for trans it’s simply not fare at all for woman where the hell is the left on this?????
  • 2 0
 Reads article. Ponders what just read. Decide to leave comment section. God's luck everyone.
  • 3 0
 That should say good luck everyone
  • 4 1
 Well, let's just wait for the other ball to drop.......
  • 4 3
 Are there any women weighing in on this? Or is it just a lot of white knight dudes who’ll never be competitive in any category?
  • 2 0
 2nd answer.
  • 3 0
 Fuck racing! Lets all just go free riding
  • 1 0
 P.S yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn
  • 1 0
 I wonder how well someone like Rachael Atherton would do if she increased her testosterone levels and decided to change so she could compete in the male category.
  • 4 0
 F.U.B.A.R.
  • 3 0
 This doesn't effect me what so ever
  • 2 1
 I don't know if a computer will ever be as smart as a human, but some humans seem limited to binary thought process like a computer.
  • 1 0
 Look over three hundred comments, the most clicked article all month. The all encompassing mouth of capitalism will devour us all ????
  • 3 0
 my f*cking god how is this lunacy even possible?
  • 1 0
 The only winner is the ones that got away! It’s been proven time and again, doping medically or mechanically is pervasive in cycling events!
  • 2 3
 How about let’s just stop letting crazy people think they’re normal? Transgender is not a thing, these people are sick mentally, I’m for getting them proper psych care. My question is, and shld be most of the worlds question, is why are we normal people enabling this behavior? I’m never recognizing a trans person for anything more than the gender they were born as, period. I don’t tell the crazy who is talking to the garbage can “yes I also hear this can talking to me too” this is utter nonesense and needs to be stopped
  • 1 2
 I know ... I know!! Let’s build a stadium in Nuevo Laredo Texas, right smack on the border so that all trans athletes can go and play against themselves, huh each other, support cuddles, etc whatever those alphabet people do... let them be by themselves segregated from normal people and athletes. AND... wait for it... we can also allow illegal trans immigrants to participate too!! It’s be the epitome of tolerance in the US. God bless america
  • 1 0
 everyone competes together. no categories. it's all about having fun and all is fair. it's the experience that matters. haha
  • 13 11
 I am a giant black man. Because that's what I am on the inside.
  • 16 1
 u mean that's what is inside u.

sorry, too easy! Smile
  • 3 0
 ????
  • 2 0
 i just want red dead redemption 2 pc version to work
  • 2 0
 Be fair to everyone and open up a separate category?
  • 1 1
 There really should be a warning for this type of post.. something like: WARNING: POPCORN WILL BE REQUIRED FOR THE COMMENTS SECTION.
  • 1 0
 Depending which side you're on, either popcorn or a fistful of Advil and 10 fat bong rips.
  • 2 1
 I see this as something very simple... Instead of Male and Female simply use XX and XY for classing.
  • 1 0
 Or if its really about testosterone levels, just be up front about it? Something to avoid people from confusing sex and gender might be nice I suppose
  • 3 0
 Yes - sounds reasonable solution to this very difficult situation. Maybe not completely 'fair' but what is happening now also not 'fair' to majority cis females in female category. Arguably gay men are significantly different from straight men (gender is a continuum) , but they still compete in same category, since they too are XY. XY identification is just a simple, and practical distinction - again not the whole story of what determines a person but a convenient way of categorizing for situations where large numbers need to be categorized. XX/XY differences are significant beyond just dominant sex hormone levels post-puberty. As gay males they could claim that they have had to endure social and psychological (if not physical) roadblocks to their athletic development, but we don't see gay men pushing for a separate category. I am not suggesting this is an analogous situation, just suggesting the social identification be taken more seriously than the binary categorization, in the name of 'fairness'. They still have the right to identify as gay and have different lifestyles and be respected for their difference if they choose to. Maybe let trans people compete in the sex category their genetics suggests and live their lives as they choose to identify and be respected for their choice. Perhaps we should get used to a minority of athletes proclaiming their right to gender identification publicly ( if they choose to), rather than trying to get used to an 'unfair' sliding hormone-level-based categorization into binary classes. Unless we want multiple gender classes in sport (obviously impractical) we should strive to have classification criteria that clearly sort people into binary (or whatever new allocation we choose) categories. Rules and categories meant to categorize large numbers of people for practical purposes should be clear and simple. XX/XY is clear and simple - people are not.
  • 3 5
 I will never understand or relate the transgender thing and believe the male or female genetics you were born with are all you will ever be. If you want to act like the other sex have at it, all good. Just keep your perversions to your self & I'll keep mine to me. You know... "Private". Perversions should never be preached in school. Man & Women make baby's, it's that simple.

The funny thing is the majority of men here - me included, would never podium against pro women straight up!
Props to Kate Weatherly & the pro women riders! You guys rock!
  • 3 5
 @highfivenwhiteguy: Your hypocritical judgmental "alt-right" labeling of a poster for suggesting that determining gender based off of emotion, rather than science (XX,XY), is a "Clown World" says a lot about you. Oh wait, I forgot that in the "progressive world" understanding and inclusion only comes to those that agree with the cause. Gotta go as I am floating in the ocean right now and think I just saw a shark........ oh but wait.....I think I will label it as a dolphin and then it can't eat me......right? Wink
  • 1 0
 Thank you all for your comments ! We close this issue and meet again tomorrow.
  • 1 0
 Why don't they just separate racing by sex instead of by gender? I mean gender does not affect your performance abilities
  • 2 0
 Or I mean gender does not affect these genetic predispositions that "male and female" categories are meant to adjust for. That's called sex. There are also transsexuals, but that's very different from transgender. I am non-binary, and compete on a male-sexed college rowing team.
  • 1 0
 @transsexuals are the only real trans people. Nonbinary is psycho babble bullshlt
  • 1 0
 i wanna ride in the junior category, and i dont care about what iam 30 years old...
  • 1 0
 I honestly just like the discussion of LGBT representation or recognition in mountain biking
  • 3 2
 You're still a dude even if you cut it off. Men against Men, and Women against Women. End of story
  • 1 0
 Masculine presenting transgender lesbians everywhere...Once if of course they become a protected class, federal law.
  • 1 0
 And the new Queen of Crankworks is...... Robert Johnson, she goes by Roberta!
  • 1 0
 men are men and women are women #sceince ..compete in that cat. this shit is getting out of control!!
  • 1 0
 For all of you, which not only want to live in a world of anti-realism:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqRJkNIwW-A
  • 3 1
 No comment.
  • 4 4
 I feel like this is being blown up over a rather narrow pocket of athletes who are competing.
  • 2 0
 f*ck; what the?
  • 10 10
 Hmmm. Whats harder? Beating a trans athlete in a race or dealing with a life of everyone hating you for being yourself?
  • 12 1
 So because most (all?) transgender athletes have a hard life in many respects, biological women should be disadvantaged when competing in sports? Seems like a classic case of two wrongs not making a right.

If trans athletes can’t compete fairly in the women’s competition then they should have to enter the open/men’s category. Deciding what constitutes ‘fairly’ is what this whole article is about.
  • 3 1
 agreed my friend, so many pathetics comments from behind screens.
  • 2 0
 Whose hating? A very small minority if anything
  • 1 0
 @Tim2: do you think it is more gratifying for them to win or just be considered their desired gender?
  • 1 0
 @konarider112: this is it, chief. From experience: the latter over the former, all damn day. Winning's cool, but being called "she" makes me think less about killing myself, which I think is pretty neat.
  • 2 0
 @konarider112:
No doubt it is being accepted as their desired gender but it’s not the only consideration here.

If it was, then women who have only just started transitioning and are by all measures are still biologically male would be able to enter a women’s completion in any sport. If you think that is fair and reasonable to the other women who are competing then I think we fundamentally disagree.
  • 1 0
 How about just give them their own category to race in, Men, Women, Trans
  • 1 0
 Longest....... comments section.......... ever.
  • 1 0
 Wow. Scrolled to the bottom in 0,6sec.
  • 1 0
 It's like trying to run a limited mod in the stock class really.
  • 1 0
 This whole discussion is gay.
  • 1 0
 FILTER ME THIS PB, vital here we come.
  • 15 15
 This definitely levels the playing field quite a bit. Kudos UCI.
  • 8 8
 Reply below if you've had your comment deleted
  • 12 12
 Yup- got deleted.
I thought this place was the voice of reason.

Being born a man, and identifying as a woman and competing in a women’s category is not up for debate.
  • 3 0
 Not yet on this page, but on others. Be tolerant, OR ELSE!
  • 2 2
 Really? PB is deleting comments huh? I’m not surprised. Canadian leftist controlled apparently I guess. Well agree that this story is crapSorry PB, 2 genders only, quit enabling the crazy people along with uci. This is so wrong. These people are sick, not heroes. No such thing as transgenderism PB
  • 2 2
 PB just deleted my main comment. I really despise having to rely on PB for mtb coverage. Buy it that’s not gonna stop me from spreading how they’re a hypocrit leftist media source
  • 1 0
 Oh, one other thing.....
  • 2 2
 Is Brian entering heard his estrogen is well up nowerdays.
  • 6 7
 Why such a big push for transgender? Who controls the media? Is there something more sinister behind this?
  • 7 3
 Lol become homosexual become trans go vegan don’t have kids save the planet bro
  • 2 1
 @dieuci: Haha, yeap! Depopulation...the sheep will obey
  • 3 0
 Because we exist, and some of us race bikes, and the organizations that govern bike racing are finally starting to take us seriously. Also hey, here's a pic of me replying to this comment: i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/060/098/5b5.png
  • 1 0
 11
  • 1 0
 is this even a thing
  • 1 0
 What ?
  • 1 0
 agreed!!
  • 1 0
 Robin Gibb?!?
  • 2 2
 Ohhhh triggered.
  • 2 3
 BOUT DAMN TIME!!
  • 2 4
 Really? You think enabling crazy people is a good thing? Let me open your eyes. There is no such thing as transgenderism, it’s a mental health condition. These people are sick in a way health care providers haven’t seen and don’t have a way to fix. This is bllsht, shld never be allowed. I feel sorry for these people who think they’re normal just cuz a few people are treating them so. They’re aren’t normal, shocker!, they’re very sick and DEF shldnt compete against the opposite sex. Pathetic that uci is enabling this, pathetic
  • 1 0
 @bordn21: muah
  • 10 12
 THIS IS STUPID!
  • 9 15
flag sburback (Nov 6, 2019 at 20:07) (Below Threshold)
 This is how we got Trump.
  • 1 2
 Why do you think it is stupid?
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