Video: 6 Things MTB Trail Builders Hate

May 17, 2021
by Pinkbike Originals  


Trail builders around the globe have spoken! And here are 6 things they really hate to see on any trail. Brush up on your trail etiquette with Christina, as she explains the do's and don'ts most requested by the trail building community.








482 Comments

  • 406 21
 can you guys at least like write out the list. im at school i cant be watching videos during a presentation about orangutans.
  • 257 0
 Skidding,
Braiding Trails
Changing Features
Riding in the mud
Riding closed trails
Litter.

Smile
  • 147 97
 Why not pay attention in school
  • 53 5
 @Patrick9-32:
We built a trail locally, that is now after some years part of the local DH race scene. We dont care if the trails get abused. We put money, blood and sweat into that trail. It is an awesome trail and everyone that rides it loves it. There are A and B features and a chicken run between the 2. We must be a rare case. Also the trail is free to ride.
  • 38 14
 @Patrick9-32: thank you. thats way more useful than copy and pasting the YouTube video description and telling us to subscribe. i thought this website was for articles.
  • 11 1
 @Patrick9-32: so common sense
  • 32 26
 @mtb-scotland: the class i happen to be in right now is a bit of a joke and i only took it because there was an error with my schedule and i figured actually taking a class would look better than taking two free periods in my junior year. but i would pay attention in math class or something cause thats actually important.
  • 30 21
 get off the net and back into the books
  • 17 8
 @madmon: i finished my work though
  • 39 0
 Are the Orangutans riding bikes ?
  • 18 6
 @Bailey100: no theyre just dying because of deforestation. but that would be rad.(the bike part)
  • 37 0
 What have you learned so far about orangutans?
  • 58 0
 @nyhc00: theyre wicked smart. but unfortunately they are dying because of deforestation for palm plantations and logging. also there are these people who go find the orangutans who are in spots about to be logged or who are stuck up in trees leftover after logging and they shoot them with tranq darts and catch them in nets to relocate them.
  • 7 7
 same im in class i cant listen to Christina talking
  • 26 0
 Does anyone know of any sweet trails where one might encounter an orangutan?
  • 8 1
 @hellbelly: I bet they'd be wicked fast.
  • 25 101
flag mhoshal (May 17, 2021 at 7:34) (Below Threshold)
 @mtb-scotland: he's American does this really surprise you?? Education isn't really their strong suit.
  • 3 0
 You in environmental science too?
  • 6 0
 @hellbelly: trails in Sarawak or Kalimantan there's a chance you'd encounter some
  • 19 11
 @mtb-scotland: Why not MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, SCOTLAND! Wink
  • 12 2
 @Patrick9-32: You deserve a medal. Also, I get that riding in the mud can create some ruts but during certain times of the year, if I had to wait for the trails to be dry(ish), I would never be able to ride.
  • 1 0
 @Bailey100: Or ...hear me out on this.....doing math?
  • 16 0
 @laceloop: so apparently you've never seen the documentary Planet of the Apes.
  • 5 6
 @hellbelly: try bolivia thats where they live. or you could break into a zoo but they are susceptible to disease so dont get too close.
  • 7 0
 Stop monkeying around and get to work!
  • 25 1
 @mhoshal: ouch! I think? I am only a stupid American so I can sort of read. You should use more pictures and colors next time as that was very boring.
  • 9 1
 @Arepiscopo: ooh ooh ahh ahh *scratches bot armpits simultaneously and throws poop*
  • 11 0
 @laceloop: Borneo
  • 10 1
 @jfyfe: shit i meant borneo. clearly i shouldve been paying attention
  • 6 3
 You really should pay attention to your studies.. Maybe information about orangutans seems irrelevant now. Maybe it never will be. However you are reinforcing skills and habits that will help you later on in life.
  • 23 0
 @DHRAW: I'd chide this kid for screwing around on pinkbike when he should be paying attention in class....but I should be working right now...so...
  • 3 0
 Watch it when you get home.
  • 17 8
 @ou812ic: Scotland always minds its own business America on the other hand..
  • 11 1
 @mtb-scotland: Don't let school get in the way of your education!!
  • 5 0
 @laceloop: trails at our local zoo aren't very long, but a monkey-powered pump track would be pretty awesome
  • 2 0
 Sometimes I'm just too lazy to watch a video and I want to read and look at pictures
  • 4 0
 @Riyadh: All depends on the probability of it getting shut down by the property owners. In the USA that's an issue that isn't a problem when ride traffic is low. Otherwise it become a liability because people that can't ride dh try it by easy access with ebikes and injure themselves with intent to sue or too many bad judgments like that anger the land owners. Strava and social media are killing trail in that matter here.
  • 96 4
 LET ME RANT ON A FEW THINGS AS BEING A BUILDER!!!! HOW'S ABOUT:

1. Builds in process-- DON'T HIT THEM OR MOVE THE STICKS BLOCKING THEM-- they're not ready!!!!
1a. especially in deep winter when it's sloppy wet, go around the new builds for crying out loud!!!
1b. Use golf etiquette.. if you fully case or ruin a landing, please if you can, go back and slap some fresh good dirt in your hole/destroyed area (if there is some). from there it just gets worse and worse... a

2. Hit the feature CORRECTLY-- don't roll off the side or the lip of a jump, DON'T brake/skid to a stop and walk on the lip of a jump!!!!!! either hit it or go around it, this slowly degrades the feature!!!! and don't temper down the lip of a jump, it's needed to give you that pop to send you on a gappy jump so you don't have to man-handle and pull up hard. If you're intimidated by it, then it means you're just not ready yet.

3. Eager new builders... Don't build trails if you don't know what you're doing--seriously! I've seen people get hurt off bad builds, avoid creating or at least fill dig holes (remember creatures do run in the woods and can easily snap a leg in one of our holes, you gotta think about water run off/drainage, and knowing how to read a new line-- letting the trail speak to you on how and what should be built.. and know how to build jumps... you don't build short poppy jumps in high speed areas and visa versa-- I saw a bunch built like that this year-- it just bucks you so you have to intentionally suck it up... There's actually thought involved when building features... Either piggy back with someone who does and learn.. or simply just find and sponsor a trail during winter and clean it up, but don't change it...

3. if you're building in illegal places, don't make it look invasive... I've built decently good sized features that don't look gnarly to the eye of wandering hikers/horse riders etc. who would otherwise complain or tear it down (and my stuff has lasted for years in publicly illegal spots). I actually have an 80 year old hiking couple compliment my work and come watch guys hit the features cuz they enjoyed it so much. I use dirt (no wooden features), cover up all sides with fallen leaves so the features look blended into nature and it helps protect it from rain. Again, avoid massive dig holes, and where you've dug, cover it with leaves so it doesn't look like you bull-dozed the area and consider proper water drainage and routing. and make alternative ninny lines around features. You may say, well they shouldn't ride it.. but those people end up finding it and somehow hitting it wrong, get hurt, and the trail shuts down... it should look really subtle, safe, and professional/ thought out...

4. Don't flipping blare loud music on illegal trails, especially while being built.. we don't want to be caught while digging... it's an expensive ticket!

Honestly, it's such common sense it's ridiculous. Help us builders to help you... Don't work against us for crying out loud. LOL. I know we all want to ride, but just use good judgement.
  • 9 2
 You don’t need a list or to watch the video. Just be a nice guy and do the right thing. Oh and don’t forget that thank your trail builder
  • 9 2
 pay attention to your classes, because if you do, you will be able to buy more mtbs in the future - life goals
  • 1 2
 lol same situation here. done with class mosly bored af
  • 2 3
 @Patrick9-32: i skid but no-one maintains or rides the trails besides me
  • 3 0
 @diggerandrider: Thank you. Unfortunately the people that need to read this won't.
  • 2 1
 @Patrick9-32: I don't know what braiding is. Can you show me a video?
  • 12 1
 As another builder, on the money @diggerandrider

My article/video would have been shorter and possibly more violent:

1. NO SUR RONS
  • 2 1
 @Bailey100: No they’re swinging in trees throwing shit at mtn bikers not following the rules!
  • 6 0
 I am teaching a class right now, so I appreciate this.
  • 1 1
 @jaydubmah: Maybe in North America that is true but not in my classroom
  • 2 1
 @laceloop: one of my regrets in love is not seeing a live orangutan when I had the opportunity.
  • 1 0
 @ou812ic: you’re not a history/political science student are you, American?
  • 6 1
 @mhoshal: Please note that this should not represent all Canadians opinions.
Also I am shocked at the number of “you should be studying” my note books always had tons of bike related doodles in them and it still worked out. @laceloop
I think the orangutans should make an appearance in the next Taj cartoon
  • 8 0
 @laceloop: as a 40 something engineer I can tell you maths is no where near as important as riding your bike you get to 40 and wonder where the time went you will never remember where your calculator went
  • 4 0
 @diggerandrider: Eager new builders X1000. Especially when they're entrepreneurial types who convince trail building organizations and local governments to pay them exorbitant sums to stack a few useless piles of dirt and call it a "skills park." GTFO. Speaking of which, when can we do the mountain bike version of Thrasher's Bag of Suck?
  • 1 2
 @Barrywillox: Maybe that’s why your still part of the UK, and we aren’t.
  • 1 0
 @mtb-scotland: Relax. That's great that you take the efforts to make learning an engaging experience for your students - and your students are fortunate to have you.

I'm highlighting the fact that there are other ways to learn valuable skills besides a formal "school" track.

Cheers
  • 2 0
 @hellbelly: Not sure, but I bet you that trail would be completely bananas though.
  • 1 0
 @laceloop: Bolivia?? they are from Indonesia/Malaysia
  • 1 0
 @mtb-scotland: you obviously didn’t spend much time there did you?
  • 4 1
 Can we do an article 6 things pinkbike readers hate about video article? But not in video form…
  • 5 0
 @enduroNZ: imp pretty amazed, mountain biking used to be about going off into the wilderness some of the trails have been around since before mountain biking was even a thing, or is the article on about man made trails which just seems to be a load of berms for sick there edits
  • 1 0
 @AnibalR: thats what i meant
  • 2 0
 @bainer66: that would be awesome theyd have some crazy looking bikes because of how long there arms are and there comparatively short legs.
  • 2 0
 @spyros2: not nesecelery
  • 1 0
 Welcome to PinkTube. Like & subscribe!
  • 2 0
 @DirtCrab: our ONLY bike park in a county of 3 million is a skills park. its pretty good.
  • 5 1
 Dear PinkBike,
I also agree that video only articles are a pain in the @ss. There are too many places where watching a video is not appropriate/feasible: school, work, public transportation, airplanes waiting rooms, hiding from bad people waiting for them to leave, so many situations.

I get it that you need to mix up the content, but video as supplemental rather than exclusive content is much more versatile. Especially for an article like this. Maybe text with some funny gif's of Darth Trail Girl, flinging dirt out of a hole would be a good compromise. There's a reason I'm on your site and not YouTube.

Thank you, carry on. I still think you are all pretty damn cool and I'll be back, over and over again.
  • 2 0
 @Barrywillox: you can have ‘prince’ harry back now on your island.
  • 4 0
 @POZZ: no no you guys keep him
  • 1 0
 @Compositepro: Wait you guys still have a prince? Wait what? why is there still a royal family?
  • 2 0
 @laceloop: You need to pay more attention in your English class.
  • 2 0
 @Riyadh: fully agree I build trails and none of these things bother me just happy they get ridden if I’m being honest
  • 1 0
 @jmhills: or in certain countries...[looking at you, England!] Smile
  • 2 0
 @DaFreerider44: no he legged it with megzilla and they stripped him of all his titles, i believe we only have the queen and the grand old duke of york, .....the other casual racist one died recentley
  • 3 1
 @hellbelly: you're an orangutan! hahaha
  • 2 0
 @hellbelly: You should know they are only encountered on the trails in Richmond...
  • 6 1
 @diggerandrider: You make many, many good points here and I would like to add onto one: Blaring music. This is a trend I really, really LOATH and it's getting worse each year, including skiing. People wearing these bluetooth speakers around their neck, hanging from their pack or pocket, etc. I don't hate music, in fact I'm usually wearing earbuds myself - BECAUSE EVERYBODY WANTS TO ENJOY THE OUTDOORS THEIR OWN WAY! I don't force others to listen to what I'm listening to, and I don't want to be enjoying the sounds of nature or silence or MY OWN MUSIC and your transistor radio (Google it!) sounding speaker blasting over any of that! Every time I hear some ass coming up the trail with one of those stupid things blasting I want to knock them off their bike (or skis)! If you are just looking for a way to be the biggest a*shole you can be, then by all means, carry on with your invasion of other people's space. But be prepared for the ramifications of your actions. OR USE SOME DAMNED EARBUDS!! It's as stupid as throwing your cigarette butts on the ground - why do you go to the woods, mountains or anywhere outdoors if you just want to trash it? Trash your own yard!

Ok, I've vented. Thanks for reading.
  • 3 1
 @TalusRider: the speaker thing drives me up the f*cking wall back down the wall and off of a cliff. i hate it so much. its like face timing out loud in public.
  • 250 23
 Meanwhile Pinkbike is running a Specialized ad about the radness of destroying trails with their ebikes, complete with a photo of a guy throwing massive amounts of dirt off the side of a berm. I feel like it’s about time we stopped glamorizing that stuff.
  • 49 3
 Pinkbike could have video standards. If the video shows trail destruction, don't post it so the masses think it's Ok or cool. It's a bit hypocritical for Pinkbike to but out a video on " 6 Things MTB Trail Builders Hate" only to have tons of videos show poor trail riding behavior.
  • 15 6
 But e-bikes don't damage trails. Unless he's one of those majority of riders who allegedly do not know how to corner...
  • 23 2
 @justinfoil: it’s not about the ebike (although I’m not a fan) it’s about Specialized promoting in their advertising exactly what this video condemns. It’s ironic at best and hypocrisy at worst on Pinkbike’s part.
  • 13 2
 There is indeed a big gap between what average riders are told to do and what most riding videos show! I wouldn't necessarily blame it on Pinkbike, because otherwise they wouldn't show any videos, but I agree the sport needs to have a discussion to stop glamorizing trail damaging behavior!
  • 21 17
 @BiNARYBiKE: But it is about e-bikes, too. E-bikes bring with them faster average trail speeds, and that means more and harder braking, and that means more potential for skidding. Maybe the riders in the ad aren't splashing the berms because it's cool, but because they're going too fast for their own good, and that is only exacerbated by the high average speeds provided by the e-bike.

Maybe Spesh doesn't mean to say "splash berms, f*ck the trails", instead trying to say "our bike will make you so fast you won't be able to help but splash berms!" If that's any better is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe they just need a disclaimer: "you splash, you dig".
  • 7 8
 Similarly, I have never seen a video from Yeti that is anything but dirt flying off a back wheel (some of them on trails I have personally worked on). Even if I was a dentist, I wouldn't buy a Yeti because of their endless promotion of trail destruction.
  • 6 5
 @snowFFFFFF: Dirt flies off wheels all the time. If it didn't then I would never need to wash my bike. I would never have a stripe of dirt up my back. Roosting is not skidding: one of my favorite ride feelings is front wheel roost hitting my shins, and if you think I'm skidding my front wheel all the time, well...

Riding hard moves dirt, that can't be avoided. Skidding where unnecessary moves dirt unnecessarily. "Unnecessary" being the key, and that can be avoided.
  • 7 0
 @justinfoil: almost all of the higher average speed is on the uphills, rolling and flat terrain. Very little braking. they are about 10-25# heavier though, you definitely have to grab more brake at speed. just a lot of new and old riders on big heavy bikes going further.
  • 2 3
 @justinfoil: I don't disagree with anything you said. "Unnecessary" skidding/sliding is what Yeti promotes in all of their videos, hence my complaint.
  • 6 4
 @psullivan65: Rolling and flat terrain, exactly. Where the corners aren't made for that kind of speed, where maybe they can roll up too fast on a (analog) rider relaxing and going slower and have to grab a big handful of brake (because we learned last week that no one looks ahead unless they're on a hardtail...).

10-25# is nothing compared to the spread of rider weights. I'm easily 10-25-50# heavier than everyone I ride with. I almost automatically coast faster on a slight downgrade, and it take a good amount more brakes to stop me on any terrain. But because I put all the speed in by my own power, it's way less likely to get out of hand, so less likely to be skidding all over the place.

It's not the weight, it's never been the weight. It's the extra (motor) power bringing faster average speeds, which translates to both more riding on all trails, and more and faster riding on trails that weren't designed for that speed (because they were designed for human power).
  • 3 0
 Absolutely this.
Got to keep taking those ad dollars though. And since when did smooth riding look cool and sell trail bikes?

It'll never happen because brands don't care enough.
They do however raffle off some frame or product every now and then and donate the $ to trail building so that's ok - makes them look civic minded.
  • 1 0
 @The-Reverend: Guess who gives two shits about these crappy raffles and donations from bike companies that will never see a positive outcome from it? Hint: It's those fixing the shit their promoting that don't get paid.
  • 7 1
 I totally agree with you!
As I have written before Pinkbike should stop using (and promote) terms such as destroy, ripping, slash, demolish or use photos such as:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/20562771
www.pinkbike.com/photo/20556076
(which are photos taken from articles published on the front page)
There should also be a selection on the published content so as to avoid videos and photos of kids who go downhill without the appropriate protections or run with a simple lumberjack shirt that is so cool.
  • 1 2
 @blacktea: Thats the creation of berms, not the destruction of them.
  • 3 0
 @blacktea: I agree that the photos showing the destruction of trails should actually stop. Especially the second photo where that rider came into that flat corner foot already out ready to skid the corner. That should not be glorified. I hate that stuff with a passion.

Your second point about PB being the arbiter of personal protection is unrealistic. Biking is a danger sport. If you want to ride in a flannel shirt (which I do in the fall and winter), then fine, do so. To my knowledge, I have never seen a photo of anyone on this site without a helmet on. If someone wants to ride without knee pads, HANS device, etc..., that is their decision to make.
  • 2 0
 @jmhills: Pinkbike has a huge audience and many of them are kids who tend to imitate their heroes. There will never be enough talk about the damage resulting from accidental falls and how important it is to take actions within reach of real capabilities. I see kids falling badly in Friday Fails videos (especially in positions that are dangerous to the bones of the spine) and I think it's due to a policy of encouragement to "go big" that does not take into account the amateur level of many of us.
  • 3 0
 @razzle: Lol Pinkbike and standards...
  • 5 0
 I've always understood that the best (i.e., most well ridden) days were those when you managed to never lock up the brakes, and got off the mountain without anyone being able to tell you were there. In my experience, skidding on the trail has always been considered an amature move. It's like a personal challenge/game I play with myself [sic] when I ride. Like counting dabs.

The single exception to this rule is laying down a perfect "Starsky and Hutch" two wheeled flat skid in the parking lot after you jealousy finish behind your riding friends spraying them with grading gravel and dust. Everyone loves that.
  • 8 0
 @justinfoil: There is no such thing as an analog bike. There are motorized bikes, and bikes.
  • 2 0
 @hrsjqb1: Ride don't slide is the rule I have lived by.
  • 2 0
 One could argue that Specialize is doing their promo on a private land or closed course.. Smile Now they will have to start adding disclaimers. But yes trail builders should be treated as gods!
  • 1 0
 @blacktea: Fair points, but that first photo is not a trail, only a freeride chute built for the photos. If you build something yourself and want to slap the corners, by all means. However don't take your roosts to other people's hard work
  • 1 0
 @justinfoil: and more rear wheel spins because the power:weight ratio and torque are greatly increased, whereas the tyre friction is only marginally increased by the percentage increase in weight of rider+bike.
  • 3 0
 I work as an environmental scientist and can tell you, as a rough guide that it takes around 100 years for just - an inch, give or take, of soil humus to build from the action of bacteria/nematodes and other microbes on plant detritus.

It's incredibly precious and can be destroyed in an instant.

I also mountain bike and never ride naturals in the rain, rarely ride loam trails either unless they are really special ones. As nice as they are, they are quite damaging if lots of riders use them.

Respect the material we ride on!
  • 1 0
 That said, on the other hand, there was a study done showing MTB hasn't a much greater pact than hiking. So there's that. But when you ride loam, always take a moment to consider how just long it took to build up in the environment.
  • 1 0
 @Carbon13: can you please give me a link to that study?
  • 1 0
 @Carbon13: thank you so much!
  • 1 0
 @Old-Guy: 110% agree. I was just using it for emphasis, but i'll think I'll switch to always emphasize the motor part.
  • 1 0
 @ridestuff: Pinkbike and standards...oxymoron?
  • 89 0
 Changing features!!!! If we build a takeoff and a landing and you can't ride it, ride around it, don't flatten the landing out into a gentle slope that goes from the base of the takeoff into nothingness and doesn't work for anyone. If the features don't work for you, don't change them as they probably work for the people who built them. Find a place to build your own trail that does work for you.
  • 73 2
 This. It’s frustrating that some individuals feel like all trails should cater entirely to their skill level. We made a modification to our own trail (that is designated as double black by the local trail association) by adding a new mandatory gap over a section of trail that never quite flowed with the rest of the trail; which includes a 15x20’ drop. Shortly after the association received a complaint that it was no longer a roll over.
Now when I was growing up if I ever came across a feature I was not comfortable doing my thought process was always “hmm I guess I have something to work up to, once I get better I can hit this” not “this must be made easier for me”. Now if this gap was done on a blue or green trail, and unauthorized then I totally understand. But if your skill level is at blue trails, please don’t expect a double black to cater to your preferences. Work you’re way up to it and then you can enjoy them with the rest of us.

Also it is possible to do a speed check without rolling over the top or side of the lip and ruining it.
  • 11 0
 Just yesterday there was a dad and his kid out on the trails and the kid kept asking his dad to the move the rocks so he could hit the jump easier. I mentioned to the kid and loud enough for the dad to understand that if they wanted to make changes they needed to talk to the builders and sanitizing the trail is not good for anyone.
  • 4 1
 Yes! when you have diverse groups of riders in especially unsanctioned areas it's kind of a dog's breakfast. It's OK to ask someone to "please don't roll/walk on/"fix" the jumps" without being a dick. I'll also volunteer progression lines that will help them get to the big stuff without changing it.

If they still don't listen you can go with the"if you do that [undesired behaviour] they'll shut this place down!" for everything, including littering, where "They" is left ominous and undefined. Works on all but the biggest clowns, but then what does?
  • 7 4
 @Muggsly: Shoulda just yelled DON'T BE A SISSY HO BAG, SEND IIIIIIIIIIIIIT
  • 3 31
flag chrsei (May 17, 2021 at 14:22) (Below Threshold)
 This seems to be the common builder attitude:
We build this and don't you dare ride it or change it if you don't have the skills to master it. How about a design that allows less skilled riders to use it, too?
  • 2 1
 @brycepiwek: Its the uncontrolled Orangutans from the Loose Riders Borneo Crew who have issued a decree about whom can and cant ride and what it all means to be the custodian and essence of authorisation and social media endorsement. Teachers in the States watching videos in classes they are meant to be teaching and educating in isn't helping either. The gauge of a societies demise can be gauged in unauthorised trail modification on unauthorised trails.
  • 13 2
 @chrsei: Just get better.
  • 2 0
 Some kooks keep dumbing down the tech sections on one of my favorite trails by stacking rocks to make transitions between features smoother. Not only is it bad etiquette it is also super dangerous both because a rider that needs the smoothed out transitions shouldn’t be on this trail and because the rocks they stack move and collapse making the feature unpredictable.
  • 1 0
 @plyawn: You do know that shut down threat doesn't work with travelling riders who look at trail as expendable and move on to the next fresh loamer right? Sounds like you don't know what factory riders and bike company staff do when they're not working.
  • 6 2
 @chrsei: We are not building public bike parks inviting every rider of every skill level to the area, charging admission and promising a family experience for all, we are building illegal trails that work for us and if others discover them, ride them and enjoy them that's amazing!

I have actually pretty much stopped building completely the last few years as everything I built got changed and dumbed down within weeks and went from a fun, challenging new feature (for me, who sucks at riding bikes, someone good wouldn't have even had to think) that took a few attempts to master to literally a hump of dirt with a vague steeper side that used to be a takeoff. I never built a jump with a takeoff over 2 feet high or more than 5 feet of gap for reference, we aren't talking about advanced features.

The woodland we built in is huge, plenty of room for those other people to build their own trail but they didn't build anything new, just ruined other people's work.
  • 1 0
 @brycepiwek: Having a session on a feature? A hard concept to get across to those who want it now!
  • 72 0
 #1 complaint of Trail Builders..... Riders.
  • 17 1
 exactly. skidding? i dont care.... lack of appreciation and willingness to help with maintenance is #1 frustration....
  • 3 1
 At this moment I need riders (tires) packing the fresh dirt before it completely dries out.
  • 62 2
 Root cutters. I HATE people who cut the roots out of trails. It speeds up erosion something awful and sometimes results in the tree having to go when it loses it's grip on the hillside. Don't do it, learn to ride the damn roots!
  • 4 0
 Yep, major problem here in AK.
  • 2 0
 Damn people actually do that?! :p
  • 5 6
 It depends. Sometimes we leave some roots and cut them later. Trails can easily be made so that the roots aren't necessary erosion-wise. Unless you have a machine, building trails without many roots is difficult and time consuming in many places, so usually a "rake and ride" approach is taken. Therefore on some trails the roots are necessary for a certain amount of erosion control.

Please don't hate on cutting roots in general. The better rule of thumb is (as the video emphasizes) to not modify a trail to suit your needs. Don't confuse trails with roots as being less prone to erosion. Also don't build trails where cutting the roots in the trail kills trees. Either take down the tree or remove roots responsibly. But again, don't modify the trail if you haven't talked to the appropriate parties/didn't build it.
  • 8 0
 Also the people who remove intentionally constructed rock gardens
  • 1 0
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: also never let a root get in the way of a good bench cut.
  • 4 0
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: wtf man just leave the roots in
  • 3 0
 @Stinky-Dee: Nope. Not a excuse to remove a root!
  • 9 2
 @Stinky-Dee: Fun fact: There actually isn't any excuse to remove a root!
  • 7 0
 I remember John Tomac (i think) taping a home made poster to his van promising a reward for information leading to the capture and probable beat-down of the 'individual' (the actual description was far more descriptive) that had cut the roots out of a DH course the night before a national back in the late 90's (I want to say Big Bear...maybe). Funny, but I totally sympathize.
  • 2 1
 @c-radicallis: Have you built bench cut trail?
  • 1 0
 @Stinky-Dee: Nope, i usually just ride the camber, or try choose a different path if riding the camber doesn't work well. Yes, my trails are pretty slow.
  • 2 1
 @c-radicallis: yep, thought so. I’m not real interested in riding trails like that. Not much fun fighting the trail.
  • 50 4
 #1 annoyance is people skidding, or is it the skandi-flick that is seen in every pro video the past 5 years. This isn't because people don't know how to corner, its because it is getting promoted as the latest trend by every pro going. Skidding is unavoidable for beginners or someone running a bit hot on a new trail. Lesson learnt and move on. But a Skandi-flick is an effort made to flick dirt up over a berm and def a bigger damage

Personally my #1 pet hate is rubbish, and little black bags of dog poo left on trails. Try flicking those up and over the berms please
  • 30 1
 I was going to say the same thing. Skidding and blowing up turns is the #1 thing on this list, yet its done to no end in almost every video and edit posted on this site.
  • 4 0
 @sino428: There's always at least one gratuitous roost shot in the PoTY comp.
  • 18 3
 Skandi-flicks are fun a fuck. Still do them on our own trails cause its fun. So it may mean we have to do a mit of maintenance sooner but as we ride to do the things we enou who cares
  • 3 1
 Wow some of that spelling is terrible. Hahaha won't let me edit
  • 15 25
flag thenotoriousmic (May 17, 2021 at 8:20) (Below Threshold)
 Scandi flicks and steering with the rear wheel is simply just how you ride a bike. If your trail can’t handle that then you’ve done a bad job as a trail builder. If I find someone’s smashed through a berm, I don’t blame the rider, I blame myself for not doing a good enough job at building a berm. Would be nice though if riders did fix their damage.
  • 13 6
 @thenotoriousmic: what if I told you, that you can flick and drift a bike without using the rear brake
  • 12 0
 @focofox37: and that doesn't flick dirt off the trail ?
Who said I use the rear brake?
Your still making the back wheel loose traction and slide
  • 2 4
 @filryan: apples & oranges, you're not throwing nearly as much cornering at limit and pedal drifting as one does by dragging the rear brake and throwing the rear
  • 5 4
 Still tho, couldnt give a shit if people are having fun which is what riding is all about.
  • 14 4
 @filryan: agreed. Go have fun, ride how you want to ride. I like building trails, I like fixing them also. Looking at these comments there’s a definite difference between the uk riders and those across the pond in attitudes towards riding. Might also explain why we’re so much better than they are at riding down hills on bicycles.
  • 3 0
 @thenotoriousmic: hahaha you could well be right about that. We have so much bad weather that a bit of Skidding isn't going to do much.
  • 2 0
 @focofox37: that's hard though. I can get a good enough approximation with a handful of brake.
  • 8 5
 Agreed. If you watch actual racing the only time this happens is when the rider went too fast. There are exceptions in racing as sometimes a skid makes making a corner faster. It’s like in ski racing where carving is faster but sometimes you need to slide the skis sideways to scrub speed in order to make the next gate. Bikes have brakes though. But the skiddy flippy for the sake of throwing dirt can f*ck off. We need to promote clean fast riding. Pinkbike and other on line media need to stop promoting shit riding particularly if they tell us out of one side of their face not to skid on purpose yet on the other show us “good” riders doing it.
  • 7 2
 @Someoldfart: you need to stop whining about people have fun. Been the fastest isn't always the most fun. Some of the best times are when your all f*cking around, doing stupid gaps and hips, over taking each other in stupid places, spotting dirt and mud up at each other, just generally having a blast.
  • 4 2
 @Someoldfart: Ok Karen... seriously though you should come and ride some of the steep trails around here. Your skidding from top to bottom if you like it or not and once you’ve done that you should try going into a corner ridiculously fast sideways on the off chance you might actually have some fun. Wink
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I live in Whistler. I know steep trails as well as anyone. Been riding off road longer than most here have been alive, 38 years. I’ve the North Shore trails turn from “loamers” to eroded gullies. Or trails are built and maintained by mostly volunteers and paid by WORCA members trail crews. WORCA gets “some” government funding.
  • 8 0
 @filryan: Nothing wrong with fun son. Until it comes at the expense of others such as the people who maintain our trails. It’s about respect. Respect for the many hours of volunteer effort to build and maintain our trails. If you’re paying for a day ticket at a trail centre or bike park, have at ‘er. Outside of the bike park here in Whistler the trails are built and maintained by a small paid trail crew and a lot of volunteers. The trail crew is paid by WORCA membership fees and some public funding.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: When it sprinkles where I live they shut the trails down. I spend my spare time having hot chocolate and watching the guys at GMBN tell me what gear and tires to run in the mud. lol
  • 2 0
 Skandi-flicks are not done during turns but between turns. Just a fanCy bike unweight and body position change that doesn't affect the Apex. ...Of course you could still shralp the corner to high heaven but done properly this can actually make berms outta flat corners.
  • 2 1
 @Someoldfart: alright calm down princess, the paid crew as you say are paid to fix the trails, do you actually volunteer to help ?
We happily dig and maintain our trails and buzz of people having fun doing what they want, weather that is fast and clean or all kinds of f*cking around. Most of you guys across the pond seem to be way too uptight. Calm down, enjoy every day as it comes, go ride the trails in the mud and slop while doing as many skids as you feel like doing. That's how we ride and how I see other people riding our trails and I couldn't give the slight f*ck about it
  • 2 0
 @filryan: to be fair we just do what we want over here. We have no legal trails at all, we just build stuff on other peoples land without permission. Probably don’t have the freedom to do that in America. They probably have to get permission from the landlord and they probably need to be maintained and kept safe so nobody gets sued or something.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: yea thats a fair point.
  • 1 0
 @filryan: For sure, in America it is all land ownership and liability is the issue. Here in UK we have no time to wait for perfectly dry and crafted trails, but respect to the trail can still be shown. Often you have to stop and help with drainage or clear a fallen branch, but my point is that Pinkbike cant be telling us the number one pet hate is skidding when they promote videos of people scandi-flicking and schralping any berm going.
  • 2 0
 @chillescarpe: Hahaha crafted trails in the UK slop. Chance would be a fine thing. The trails been muddy and unpredictable is half the fun tho. Got to love foot out 2 wheel drifting.
Your point on the vids pink bike show is completely valid.
  • 2 0
 @Someoldfart: Ride don't slide... Seeing skidding creates the same feeling of anger I get when I watch a snowboarder skidding/plowing sideways all the way down a run, scraping all the powder and leaving a nice icy scar in their wake.
  • 55 7
 If a trail is just a bunch of IMBA off camber switchbacks, I'm gonna skid. Sorry, not sorry.
  • 12 2
 Imba certainly does not preach no in-sloped turns. They do recommend an at-grade switchback, but only on “flat” ground/grade. Off-camber at any grade is a Forest Service technique, and their dumb ideas don’t stop there.
  • 3 1
 I may disagree about the skidding part, but it's pretty pathetic when the supposed leader in trail sustainably advocates for trails that aren't fun and just lead to people skidding them up or creating braids just to make it through the trail.
  • 5 3
 @vtracer: yepp, doesn't help that most legal trails around here are being built/rerouted/maintained by folks who never exceed 12mph on their XC bikes.
  • 51 8
 1. Skids
2. Skids
3. Skids
4. Skids
5. Skids
6. Schralping

(I didn't watch the video)
  • 17 0
 You missed people trail builders don't like people.
  • 12 0
 @Bchambers09: as a trail builder... Can confirm.
  • 5 0
 @OlSkoolJake: honestly Skids > People. Skids are always fun... people not so much.
  • 39 0
 I’m just gonna write out the list and explain so you guys don’t have to watch the video:
1. Skidding (throws dirt off trails)
2. Braiding trails (riding off trail lines just to go faster)
3. Changing features (can be dangerous to locals who are used to the trail)
4. Riding in the mud (creates trenches and holes in trails, bringing drainage issues)
5. Riding closed trails (potentially unfinished features, can be dangerous)
6. Littering (be responsible and bring out what you brought in)
  • 34 134
flag DoubleCrownAddict (May 17, 2021 at 7:55) (Below Threshold)
 And I'm gonna Destroy half of the list with valid counter points.

1. Telling people to not skid is like telling people not to drive 5 miles per hour over the speed limit. If you wanna go fast skidding is necessity sometimes. Watch any downhill race for evidence.

2. Part of sustainable trail building is building great trails that are fun that people won't want to change. If you build tight switchbacks and juanky awkward corners people will justifiably look for better lines. Rule #1 in downhill trail building school is don't build tight switchbacks that force people to skid into corners and then pedal out of them! Build wider steeper inside lines that challenge the riders skill and allow them to take more speed out of the corner.

4. Trenches and holes aren't always ideal for drainage but sometimes make a trail more technically challenging and fun. This is mtb, not bmx racing. Telling people to not ride in the mud is almost as bad as telling them not too skid.
  • 89 8
 @DoubleCrownAddict:

1: Ride the trail as intended, if you want a different experience, ride a different trail.

2: Ride the trail as intended, if you want a different experience, ride a different trail.

4: Ride the trail as intended, if you want a different experience, ride a different trail.
  • 36 4
 @DoubleCrownAddict: Do you realize not every trail is your personal race track? You can't compare the techniques used in DH racing to a Saturday ride on a hiking trail. People of all types and hobbies use trails, too, and don't want a trail that is rutted out, with holes everywhere because people like you like to ruin them in the mud. I agree with @Patrick9-32 that you need to find a different trail if you can't use it like a normal person at normal speeds.
  • 47 3
 @DoubleCrownAddict: I’ll take the janky awkward corner over any perfect berm. Don’t turn tech trails into flow trails.
  • 6 69
flag DoubleCrownAddict (May 17, 2021 at 8:21) (Below Threshold)
 @goldencycle: I'm not referring to hiking trails, I'm taking about downhill mtb trails, many designed by IMBA and other weak trail organizations that are just flat out stupid and need to be rerouted into real downhill mtb trails instead of hiking trails. Read my rule #1.

There aren't many trails that meet my expectations, and I often want a different experience, so sometimes it's necessary to make and take steep inside lines instead of the stupid tight switchbacks.

#MakeAndTakeKnarlyDH
  • 22 2
 @DoubleCrownAddict:

"Watch any downhill race for evidence." - I watch most of the WC DH races and I don't think I've ever seem a top racer 'schralp' or square off a berm. Their brake control is obviously exemplary. You'll never see a top racer grabbing a fist full of back brake when coming up to a simple feature or corner. They understand the importance of the FRONT brake Wink Of course skidding is going to happen from time to time. It just doesn't need to happen ALL the time which is evident when I'm out building and watch riders in action.
  • 5 26
flag DoubleCrownAddict (May 17, 2021 at 8:27) (Below Threshold)
 @masacrejoe: A steep inside line is never a perfect berm. It's usually rutted out and rocky/roots, cause you are forced to skid cause it's so steep. I'm talking about stupid switchback corners in steep terrain.
  • 21 1
 @DoubleCrownAddict: I bet if this comment wasn’t made from DCA, people might be listening.

As a trail builder and rider, I’d have to agree with DCA on his points. The list is bang on, however, misleading. Perfectly build Green and Blue trails most likely won’t result in much skidding. However, Black / Dbl Black? Come on! Even your best attempt at modulation will results in some skidding.

There’s ridding in the rain, a bit of mud and muck. The latter is the one that ruins trails AND leads to trail braiding. Around here, the 2” of mud becomes 2” of dust.

Ride the trail as intended, 100%. Do not change the trail to suit your needs and if you want KOM, play without cheating.

Littering. Pick up your shit.

And volunteer during trail crew nights. Otherwise, you have NO say on how the trails are built...
  • 3 0
 @goldencycle: I think my definition of a ruined trail is different to yours but then again if you ride in the uk not riding trails in the wet isn’t an option.
  • 16 4
 @DoubleCrownAddict:

1. seems weird to suggest "going fast" requires braking aggressive enough to lock up your wheel, then I assume pedalling like crazy. You're doing it wrong.

2. seems weird to suggest Rule #1 for building a DH trail is there are no rules beyond build on the fall line. If this is what you want to do go hit a gravel pit. For DH trails, you're doing it wrong.

3. You forgot 3. When it comes to numeric lists, you're doing it wrong.

4. The goal of every trail is not to make it as technically challenging as possible. Ruts and mud destroy berms and jumps, the parts of the trail that typically take the most work. If you want to ride this style of trail in the wet, take your mountain bike out to the local ATV / motorcross area. If you ride trails that will be destroyed in the wet, you're doing it wrong.

Your entire list basically says "I want immediate fun for me and only me, regardless of who does the hard work or the long term impacts on everybody". I suggest you're doing it wrong.
  • 4 14
flag DoubleCrownAddict (May 17, 2021 at 11:35) (Below Threshold)
 @plyawn: No, just build corners that work and are fun and people won't make & take shortcut lines. You have to skid some on super steep corners. Skidding isn't a sin, it's a skill in those situations.
  • 1 0
 Riding in the mud seems to be a bit of a gray area. The preferred case is ride only when the ground is dry enough that mud isn't present, but I have heard that it is better to ride through the mud rather than around the mud. For many of us the only opportunity to ride is on the weekends and sometimes mother nature just isn't in tune with our schedule and we're faced with -don't ride this weekend- or -ride sensibly through mud-. In that scenario, I think most of us choose the latter. Better to ride through the mud than erode and widen the trail in areas known to get muddy. In the PNW and perhaps east coast and midwest, rain is a big part of life which means mud also is. This circles back to a well-built trail will have good drainage and not form many if any mud pits hence you avoid the mud problem all together.
  • 5 0
 @SuperHighBeam: depends on your dirt. Locally, if you ride in the mud it makes crazy depressions that dry like concrete. There is no debate that riding in the wet absolutely destroys our trails and its about 80% of the work we end up fixing.
  • 1 0
 @RonSauce: Very true. My local dirt seems to be pretty malleable and forgiving, but it definitely gets torn up every spring and fall.
  • 2 1
 @SuperHighBeam: Around or through is very situational. Most of my usual trails drain super well but also have sections that are always wet (except maybe for 3 days at the end of July). Some of those wet sections get deep enough that going through is worse. But others are on singletrack in pretty dense undergrowth and going around would trample sensitive plants.

Luckily most of them have been noticed by the trail orgs and either receive a bridge or a well-made go-around. That example in the video with the ad-hoc shitty go around seems cherry picked to demonstrate what not to do, but to me it just shows either a poorly designed trail or a trail that needs updating to match the changing terrain (water-flows down a slope change constantly, that's just life). It seemed pretty dry around the mud puddle, so that's probably a semi-permanent wet spot and should be re-routed or drainage added. And that's why I pay my trail org dues, so the folks with the building skills can do that kind of maintenance.
  • 3 0
 @SuperHighBeam: Living west coast of Scotland don't have the option to wait for there to be no mud, if that was the case I would never get to go cycling! Had torrential rain, hail and sunshine all in the space of 40 minutes on a cycle yesterday!
  • 1 0
 @RonSauce: 100% agree with you. Certain riding area, it’s a sin to ride in mud, and rightly so. Other areas, not a great deal of impact. I have been riding around my place for 25 years and beside a few more exposed roots, riding in the mud has resulted in more trail braiding than deep ruts.
  • 2 1
 @DoubleCrownAddict:
When ever i see a hidden comment now i look for your name lol

People have said enough to debunk your opinions, but its clear to me that if:
1) you dont know how to corner without skidding (you actually loose braking force when your tire breaks traction. momentary breaks in traction aside, its NEVER necessary to maintain a skid),
2) dont understand that trail building is a personal form of art and is such subjective and appreciated differently
4? lol ) you dont know some ground and trails are subject to increased erosion from rain and snow run off in inclement conditions, and its disrespectful to the builders to soggy-bomb em, who will ultimately have to repair your damage to keep the trail running the way they intended

you dont know what you're doing... you're just making excuses to try and hide the fact you've got no knowledge of these things.. its like when people try and teach some one something cause they obviously are doing it wrong and anyone who knows can tell, but the person doing it wrong gets all offended and talks down to the good samaritan out of embarrassment or something, but the real embarrassment is that they keep doing it wrong even after some one tried to help them get it right.
  • 2 4
 @deepstrut: anyone can ride a corner, drifting around it is what takes real skill especially in the mud and honestly some of the trails around here skidding or sliding is an essential skill your going to struggle if you don’t have. And if your trails turn to crap if you rode them in the wet then that’s just poor building.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic:

there's a difference between drifting a corner (where your tire is still spinning, like in the video you posted and Bryn specifically mentions not touching the brake), and grabbing a hand full of brake and power "skidding" around the corner or down a chute. "Skidding" is the key word there.


You'll notice i said SOME trails and ground.. not all. (you have a problem with key words eh?)
here in BC its not necessarily "poor building". its the fact total annual precipitation averages 357.3 mm more than the UK (for vancouver, even more in the mountains). its the fact that we have sometimes 3000+ cm of snow in the hills that runs downward in the melt off. Trails that are properly bench cut with adequate drainage still flood in certain areas if there isnt enough grade. That doesnt mean the trail should never have been built, it means its only sustainable to ride in certain conditions in our rainforest climate.
  • 1 0
 @deepstrut: so drifting is ok but skidding isn’t? I think that this point you know your talking nonsense and your just shifting the goal posts to fit your narrative.

The more it rains the better our tracks get. They start rutting out and all the roots and rocks start showing. Rain is no excuse for sub par building.
  • 2 0
 @McFuntish: Exactly. The Pacific Northwest has a very similar problem. If you wait for dry, you won't ride very much. Riding in mud is just a part of life and surely the trail builders appreciate that reality too. Keeps them occupied and employed. Trail building is equal parts new trail creation and existing trail maintenance, or perhaps even more trail maintenance and a little bit of new trail creation.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: There are circumstances where skidding and sliding are an essential skill. On a dry packed surface is not one of them.
  • 21 1
 3 ways to get people to click and reply to an article
1) turn it into a listicle
2) give it a clickbait title
3) make it video only
  • 2 0
 when you heard Deegan's YouTube channel is monetized in the 10's of millions and PB bosses want in on the algorithm, we get video "content".
  • 14 0
 I hate the stupid horse herd that always get out of their nearby pasture and tear up the trails when muddy and shit everywhere. But the colts this time of year are all fuzzy and cute. It's impossible to be mad at something that cute.
  • 3 0
 Yep, have you ever had to ride a berm with hoof print sporadically through it
  • 3 0
 @focofox37: Yep, they like turning smooth single track into a rumble strip or mine field. A few months ago, I rode out of the trees into a meadow with a short descent and the horse herd was right there, they were running beside/in front of me practically before I saw them. It was sorta like that scene in Unreal, was completely unexpected and exhilarating. That was a special experience. Luckily I didn't spook them too bad.
  • 3 0
 sounds like Bragg Creek to me.
  • 1 4
 @focofox37: sure have, and it's no big huge deal. A hoof print is way smaller than most of the rocks on my trails, so what's the problem? If there are berms on multiuser trails that don't leave enough room for other users to go by without "ruining" the berm, the berm builder did it wrong.
  • 4 0
 I won't criticize the horses. I WILL criticize local govt who prioritize horses over bikes because they think bikes do more damage.
  • 17 3
 I can deal with trail maintenence. They are made for riding and its a enjoyable to work on them.Not everyone started out a pro, and most riders learn how to ride eventually. What I can not get over on the trails , are bluetooth speakers. Trash, I can pick up. Dirt can be moved and repacked. If I pick up and move a rider off the trail who is being a douche and blasting their shitty music, well than I most likely get a battery charge.
  • 4 24
flag mick06 (May 17, 2021 at 11:53) (Below Threshold)
 How are you close enough to a rider for long enough for their music to bother you? I play my music while i ride up, id find it pretty damn weird if someone lost their mind over it
  • 10 2
 @mick06: You do realize that a speaker can be heard beyond your little bubble of personal space? Unless you came up with some kind of trail-friendly cone-of-silence... did you?! Can I buy in?! That's so cool!
  • 8 0
 I don't mind the speakers much, but I definitely hate people with earbuds in who can't hear me when I'm coming up behind them.
  • 10 0
 @mick06: it’s pretty weird you need to bring a speaker with you on a ride hopefully out in the wild. Can’t you just save it for the drive home and unplug for a bit? It would only bother me if you came on a ride with me. I can’t see how anyone can be mad you for it though. I did once lend a bike to a friend and zip tied a Bluetooth speaker to the handle bars and played Chicane- Saltwater on repeat for the whole ride but that was a once off.
  • 3 7
flag mick06 (May 17, 2021 at 14:16) (Below Threshold)
 @thenotoriousmic: thenotoriousmic - i play tunes with my phone thats in my pocket, I dont take an actual separate speaker. I play tunes when Im out by myself getting exercise, I wouldnt do it on a group ride.

Justin - no, it cant. The trail friendly cone of silence you speak of is called volume control. You sound really laid back and fun to be around.
  • 12 0
 Agreed. Bluetooth speakers are obnoxious in any public space, but feel especially intrusive in the forest.
  • 7 1
 @mick06: if it's loud enough for you to hear over trail\riding noise, it's going to be loud enough for others nearby to hear. It's simply a dick move to play music outloud on the trails. just get some nice bone conduction headphones for solo rides and save the music sharing for the port-group-ride bbq.
  • 4 4
 @justinfoil: if someone gets upset out mtb riding because they had to listen to quiet music for the 10-15 seconds that they crossed paths with another rider then imo they need to take a step back for a minute and put things in perspective.

And seriously, every second hiker around has music on through their phones and I cant hear it beyond 20 meters so I think youre being a bit sensitive. Bear bells are way louder and travel much further.
  • 1 1
 @mick06: "Some hikers are dicks and do it, so I can do it too, but I'm not a dick!"
  • 1 0
 @justinfoil: but Im not an old miserable tool so I dont think hikers are dicks for listening to music.
  • 16 1
 And how many videos on PB are festooned with the cool kids doing endless freeride flicks ?
  • 26 15
 I love skidding.
Skids look and feel cool.
I skid often and enthusiastically with grace and confidence.
Skidding is fun and I'm awesome at it.
I have not met the trail or bike I cannot skid.
I will continue to skid indefinitely.
#SKIDLIFE
  • 7 2
 hopefully you go along to some trail maintenance days then
  • 5 0
 @neilpritchett: are you exempt from maintaining trails if you don’t skid?
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: nah, that guy just really really should
  • 14 0
 ATVs and motos riding illegally since they love going out in wet conditions and roosting.
  • 16 7
 Also: e-bikes Wink
  • 8 0
 Sur Rons. Damage trails like ATV's and dirt bikes except generally ridden by self righteous noobs on bicycle trails.
  • 14 3
 You don't have to worry about that here in Innsbruck - greatest mountain bike city of the kingdom of the jewels of the world of tyrol - because there are no trails :smartthinkingguy
  • 18 8
 Ebikes.
Sorry there's no way around it they f*ck trails.
1) heavy so blow holes in turns and ruts
2) shift/displace dirt around widening and swallowing turns 3) skidding over top of turns because they can't make the corner
4) braking bumps... list goes on.
I recently built several very steep local dh tracks which me and some friends rode for months (on normal bikes) with minimal maintenance needed on them. Then some local ebikers caught wind and the tracks needed maintenance after every single weekend. I got fed up with doing all the donkey repair work and as few ebikers are willing to dig as they can't be arsed to pedal a proper bike (obvious joke please don't get your panties in a bunch) the trails became unrideable.
I know ebikes allow many to experience mtbing who might not be able to with a normal bike but it's undeniable that they ruin trails.
  • 9 0
 e-bike is around 23kg. My old Giant Glory is 23kg. and i have no problems on trails.
Maybe e-bikes are driven by cyclists who don't know how to ride bikes?
  • 2 2
 @blacktea: skill was not the issue in this case unfortunately. Just my own personal observation where a riding spot was prime for 3-4 months until ebikers began riding there and all trails were f*cked within one day.
  • 11 0
 Also... Digging up the past, burying the truth, uncovering the future, muddying the waters, forking out for tools and shovelling $hite!?
  • 11 1
 1. Heading as fast as you can straight into a berm only to lock up the brakes and create brake bumps in an otherwise perfectly good berm. Learn to flow. Trust me, you'll be faster.
  • 6 0
 Urgh; braking bumps! People skidding on purpose into berms just make it harder for people to not accidentally skid as the bumps get worse.
  • 2 3
 @ROOTminus1: How do they make it harder to no accidentally skid? Haven't you been riding your hardtail so you know to look further down the trail so you notice the braking bumps early and can brake before them?
  • 26 14
 1. trail poachers. if the trail is closed it's closed for a reason.
2. youtubers
3. youtubers
4. youtubers

Smile
  • 5 0
 I tolerate the poachers. In my area, they’re mostly just dudes that are frothy for the new bit of trail. It’s easy enough to get them out to dig after they’ve had a taste, too. I appreciate this isn’t the case in busier spots.
  • 9 0
 Hmm. Not riding in the mud/wet is a luxury we don't have around the UK really.

I kind of get it, but I kind of think this is mountain biking and the weather changing riding experiences is one of the sweet joys which make this not road biking.
  • 2 0
 As she said, it’s a regional thing. Where I am some people lost their minds if you ride the day after it rains.
  • 2 0
 @DHhack: sounds amazing to be honest. Mud is tiresome.
  • 1 1
 So long as you ride through puddles, not around them.
  • 14 2
 Garbage (haven't watched the video yet)
  • 6 1
 The cool guy club here thinks it’s cool to stack up beer cans at the trail entrance.
  • 2 0
 @bradwalton: recycle them and give the cash to the builder?
  • 1 0
 @bradwalton: Maybe its a misguided attempt at trailhead donations
  • 7 0
 @DHhack: well I do recycle them because I hate garbage on the trails I’ve built but there’s no cash involved, just more effort. For the most part, riders are very respectful with their trash in Bellingham. Just for some reason beer cans don’t seem to count as trash.
  • 6 0
 @bradwalton: The same morons who think cigarette butts don't count as trash probably think that stretches to any legal narcotic container?
  • 1 0
 @bradwalton: here it’s the gel wrappers. Gets old real quick. Here we can recycle cans for a nickel so at least it pays to clean those up.
  • 3 0
 @bradwalton: so they START the ride with beers? weird flex.
  • 5 1
 @bradwalton: I like to leave an empty beer can where I've been working so others will know what kind of beer to buy me as thanks. It's not working though.
  • 11 1
 What sucks is the people that need to see this video most probably aren't on PB.
  • 1 0
 aint that the truth!
  • 9 0
 Nothing worse than people changing trails, especially natural ones. I hate people chopping roots out because they cant ride them. Also trash on trails sucks.
  • 10 0
 If you live in ca don’t tell anyone where the trails are because they are illegal
  • 13 0
 amen dude. people that make strava/trailforks segments of trails they didn't build have a special place in hell right next to youtubers that put bootleg trails on blast.
  • 4 0
 @ranke: you’d think it pretty common sense not to tell the world about your illegal trails. Some dudes are just that hungry for props I guess.
  • 2 0
 @Silocycle: its crazy in California. Santa Cruz for instance the best riding is at Campus but its all illegal and on the edge of getting shut down but if you go at almost anytime you will see at least a dozen riders. Tons of videos even photo shoots for bike companys.
  • 10 1
 Not taming down features works equally well the other way around: new builders, please stop turning years-old technical trails into highways.
  • 2 1
 Isn't that the same way around? Does it matter who is doing the taming? Can a builder just come back in and change their old trails and it's cool, no one is allowed to care? Or is it only new builders who aren't allowed to bring old (maybe beat up and eroding) trails in line with current styles?
  • 3 0
 @justinfoil: Perhaps I should not have written "new". It does not really matter who's doing it after all.
My point is that trails of all eras still have their place. Maintenance, updates and rebuilding are different things. Some trails get so much "updates" that they are actually rebuilt and should not bear the same name anymore.
  • 8 1
 One that I've heard, but wasn't mentioned in the video: don't do things that will p*ss off landowners where trails are built. Building illegal trails, riding on hike-only trails, scaring hikers by riding too fast on mixed-use trails - these are the kind of things that will end up making it way harder for the local legitimate trailbuilders to do their excellent work!
  • 9 2
 The majority of trail builders I know (me included but much less these days) hate one thing. Not having fun on the trails. This may be an unpopular opinion, but not riding when its muddy, not skidding, don't try and features unless you are perfect... it's all bull. Ride for fun, smash your corners, be respectful on trails and to trails, and pick up a rake in the spring to help out or clear some trees. Don't mediate the fun things about mtbing for the sake of a little "convenience". The many negative voices of all the "builders" here do not represent the majority.... those guys are out building and shralping and don't care to try and mandate rules on how people should ride.
  • 9 0
 What about wannabe trail builders who add features without notice on high speed sections of very.popular trails?
  • 11 1
 Really, REALLY, missed an opportunity to use "Skidiots"
  • 1 0
 Enthusiastic clapping!! I will be using that. My thanks!
  • 6 0
 Worst thing I had happen in 10yrs.of building was having a group come down a trail and ask us to move our tools out of the way so they can ride the feature we were building. It wasn't even finished and they wanted to ride it.
  • 5 0
 Don't tell all your friends about the sweet new rogue trail you found, and don't post it on strava. A lot of those trails aren't made for large numbers of riders so if you want to keep that sweet stuff sweet, keep the riff raff off of it.
  • 10 2
 MTB scene has become MAJOR KOOK FEST
  • 5 1
 Christina, thanks very much for that!

It's a serious topic, deserving of attention - certainly a LOT more than it gets - and you nailed it. Mainstream MTB media glorifies skidding/schralping/drifting/berm smashing etc. PB included, but at least you're not afraid to call yourselves out.

And we wonder why we have trouble with our land managers.... I appreciate your effort to raise awareness,
  • 8 1
 Everyone is complaining about slapping corners like the trail builders don’t rip the hell out of what they build..
  • 1 1
 No, PB says we must ride every trail on the exact ride line. Do not exceed the speed limit.
  • 4 0
 Trail braiding, a chicken line appears next to a technical line even though there is already an easy line in place. Cover it up with windfall and crap, come back two weeks later and someone has opened it up again. Rinse and repeat on a regular basis.
  • 6 0
 Naah... #1 is motorcycles. #2 is tourist on the trail that make it a toilet/garbage field. #3 is dog poop.
  • 5 2
 In the area that I live the local foundation has volunteer trail maintenance days and they get any where from 6 to 12 people to volunteer. The area that I live in has thousands of MTBers & eMTBers, so less then 1% do any trail work.
At the end of the day my statement to most riders in the area is "If you Don't Work on the Trail, Don't Ride the Trail"
  • 5 0
 If that actually happened, no one would be able to ride, because the trails would constantly be filled with people without knowledge or enthusiasm for trail building out there building shit trails. No Dig No Ride can apply to a small area like a set of dirt jumps, but at some point it's not feasible for every single rider of a trail system to put in work. This is exactly why non-profit trail organizations exist, so they can get money from people without time or building skills. If you want to amend your statement, perhaps it could say "If you don't donate money OR time, and you still use the (public) trails a lot, you might be a dick, but we can't stop you."
  • 3 0
 @justinfoil: Yes money donations are a good thing, but I would like to see more riders get involved with trail maintenance, like 10% - 20% of the riders in the area.
Here my new statement "If you don't put Time or Money into the Trail, Don't Ride the Trail"
  • 6 0
 Pinkbike: don't blow up berms! Also pinkbike: Rider blowing up berm PHOTO OF THE YEAR!
  • 3 0
 Under littering : tying dog poop bags to tree branches - these are not the ornaments our forests want. Not only that, when there’s rain they leak shit water! Don’t leave your poop bags on the side of the trail either.

Oh! Cleanup after your dog on the trail .. I don’t like getting a face full of dog excrement. Or, flick it off to the side of the trail where I won’t hit it.

Pedestrians : don’t hike on bike trails in the mud - you can be just as destructive as a bike!
  • 3 0
 We could have an article/video about the megalomaniacal nature of some self-appointed trail builders and how they often get it wrong. I've personally come full circle from pirate trails to legitimately trying to work with trail builders and back.

Even so, I'd add another more important thing that riders do often and destroys trails: Being jerks. This results in entire trails being permanently shut down. Be cool to everybody no matter what. If for no other reason than that person blocking your line might be land owner.
  • 24 22
 Things trailbuilders love (because they get to cash in on them):
1. Fall line trails
2. Erosion
3. Rain
4. Chapter meetings
5. Getting paid by distance - (endless shallow switchbacks)

Things they don't like (cause they can't cash in):
1. People saying they like raw trails
2. Volunteers who only use hand tools & keep secret meeting times
3. Handlebar width trail between trees
4. Awesome, epic rainy days they can't drive their skid steer

Shocker...right?
  • 5 0
 I love handlebar width passages, especially when one tree/obstacle comes sooner.
  • 6 0
 At least where I'm at (front range in Colorado) most trails are volunteer built, so I don't think they'd like any of that....
  • 23 0
 Who on earth is cashing in on trail building? I mean there might be a handful of people making a living, but I’m pretty sure by and large it’s a thankless labor of love.
  • 2 0
 @goldencycle: They hire extremely questionable designers though.
  • 7 0
 @BiNARYBiKE: there is a huge boom in for profit trail building right now. Tons of people are profiting off of (flow) trail building.
  • 2 0
 @davec113: a few people seem to have the monopoly on trail design.
  • 3 2
 @BiNARYBiKE: There are companies all across the planet now. I know a half dozen guys with their own independents.
Right now in Tennessee, there is a project with 7 different trail building companies all building a bike park. And that's in between government contracts, forest service grants & trail expansions, complete re-routes and now municipalities everywhere (and private land owners with their own private trails getting built) building everything from greenways to multi-use stuff.

Not sure what the standard is in your region, but everything is being re-routed here because F.S., Sierra Club, Trout Unlimited, hiking and equestrian clubs are all pitted against one another to "FIX IT OR WE'LL CLOSE IT" by the Forest Service. So everyone in the region addicted to the tourist dollar is raising money, picking up grants, allocating funds...you name it. It's mini-excavators galore in this region.

Seems like we have more Side by Side 4x4 accessible Strava tracks & rolling grade washouts than we do forests.

@fluider if you know where there are 2 trees to wiggle my bars between, I'm down to ride. Here, it used to be on every single ride you had multiple. Now, I can't think of even one.
  • 2 0
 @blowmyfuse: interesting. Definitely not like that over here in Southern Oregon. I’ve lived all over the west and been riding for a long time and would still have a hard time identifying anyone cashing in on trail building.
  • 2 1
 @blowmyfuse: You know a half dozen guys getting paid to make trail. You realize just how low that ratio is to the numbers needed to make and manage trails across US and Canada? Was that suppose to be a message that building trail is an industry of it's own? Because it isn't and you clarified that even more. And that TN project is one project for builders that would have to travel across the country to seek temporary work. Talk about niche.
  • 9 1
 Ah yes, all those fat-cat trail builders. How do they keep the top hats and monocles clean while building trail?
  • 2 1
 @vindee: Travel across the country? Don't make up a story. Most are from this area.

Have a good day.
  • 2 1
 @plyawn: exaggerate much?
  • 1 0
 huh?? I'd say that 90% of trails that aren't in a bike park are maintained by volunteers and a small minority of county or state staff. Not much getting rich on building (and fixing) trail to speak of.
  • 1 0
 @joeldirt0: trails are usually maintained by volunteers, but there are loads of different contractors the build trails with heavy equipment that volunteers may not be able to (I know because I have worked for multiple). I can't say this for sure, but I'm willing to bet more mtb trail is built each year by contractors than volunteers, simply because they are able to put in 40-60 hours a week with multiple machines running producing 500-1000 feet of trail a day. Bentonville, Arkansas would be a great example of this.
  • 1 0
 @Trailfingers: You're wrong. Most trails remain to be built and maintained by volunteers and a fraction of trail to networks are getting paod contracting. Almost none will be maintained by paid contractors. That is if you're talking about sanctioned trails on non privateland in the USA.
  • 2 0
 @vindee: you missed the part where I said trails are usually maintained by volunteers. But you're actually wrong. I've been paid to build trails on city land, county land, state land, and national forests. I'm not saying volunteers don't put lots of time in building and maintaining trails, I'm just saying that contractor, who they are certainly fewer than volunteers, are building trails as a full time job, using excavators and dozers, which they are professionally trained on, to build way more than a team of volunteers could do in a weekend. Just look into the Professional Trailbuilders Association, who just released that their member companies spent 1,000,000 hours building trails in 2020. Let me again remind you that a professional Trailbuilding company can build trail much faster than volunteers, mainly due to use of heavy equipment, and the fact that they are doing it as a full time job, professionally. This is only talking about sanctioned, machine built trails, but they are certainly contracted out to build on public land, as I've worked for companies that almost exclusively do such.
  • 1 0
 @vindee: I also said more mtb trail, which suggests I'm talking about mileage, not individual trails
  • 2 0
 @Trailfingers: And now trail "volunteers" have powered equipment and are getting really carried away with it at times.

It's shocking as a lover of all things outdoors how much sanitization of a natural place a single walk behind trail dozer can do in the hands of a retired guy on a Tuesday AM with no supervision.
  • 2 0
 @blowmyfuse: not going to lie, not a huge fan of machine built trails, as someone who has built a lot of machine built trails
  • 6 1
 What I hate-riders bitching/telling me how to build trail when they won’t raise a pinky to help.
  • 4 0
 Something that is rare, it's "natural" trails, where bikes and riders mold the trail throught riding them. These are so rare, that I prefer to leave Strava Off
  • 4 2
 It's mind-boggling to think that there is one group of people (entitled riders) who go out and willfully subvert/exploit the hard work of another group (trail builders)...whose primary endeavor it is to enable the first group to keep doing their thing.

Nevermind. Not mind-boggling. Typical humans.
  • 2 0
 There is a difference in Trail Builders and a( group that believes they are helping the environment) by building large abrupt erosion mounds with dangerous lips; often times entering a corner or just in a very bad spot! These Crack Heads have caused multitudes of skilled and non skilled riders injury sometimes severe!!
They often times organize trail work dayz with people that have very little or if at all, any understanding of the dynamics a rider is faced with in a sudden occurrence with said features. The person or persons in charge of groups are complete joke; especially when work done is not thoroughly evaluated and corrected for peoples safety. These areas are usually done without any signage, to indicate of man made trail changes warning riders until the fresh work has become worn in and lips are more subtle upon approach.

So PB should address in a video things riders are furious about with such piss poor trail work done by Morons, that believe their work and way of doing is the best way and continuing to do so without any repercussions if someone should become severely injured.
  • 2 1
 Learn to ride within your limits don’t try to bring folk down to the level of your grandma.
  • 2 0
 @crazy9: You apparently took out of context the my address and assume i must be an out of control rider dumbing down. Typical of some people; as with you that just miss the clear point. DINGDONG!
  • 3 1
 skidders skid because they like to skid, not because they don't know how to turn. They simply think skidding is more fun and exciting than banked turning. Doesn't make it right, and it certainly annoys me, and it doesn't help that youtube glamourizes skidding. Related to skidding through tuns is skidding before turns creating braking bumps...uggh I loathe braking pumps. People, learn to time your braking and learn to modulate to prevent skidding.
  • 2 0
 SPEAKER / RADIO

Can we also just make it universal common knowledge that if you’re bringing a Bluetooth speaker out on the trail, or anywhere outside, that you’re a tool?

The idea that other people who made the trip out into nature also share the same taste in music as you is about as ignorant and / or selfish as it gets. It’s always the newbie who just thinks that nobody else thought to pack their speaker. NO! Nobody else brought one because nobody wants to hear it.

This is something that’s gotten worse and worse over the past couple years as more people head outdoors and in my eyes is up there with littering. You are littering your unwanted music taste into nature’s ears.

PS - I also think it’s lame at campsites, but that’s a different battle.
  • 5 0
 That was a front license plate mount, btw.
  • 7 6
 this one time i was riding with the owner of my local MTB park (it was the 2nd or 3rd week of opening), we were walking our bikes close to a huge berm, when a kid hit the brakes skidding through the whole thing, we both cringed, when the kid finished i laughed but my friend started a tantrum, he was expecting me to support his tantrum and I told him "it is part of the business, isn't it?" everyone gave me a look like "wtf are you doing?? you dont talk to the Godfather like that!!", he thought about it for a second and stayed quiet for the rest of the run. At the end of the day while drinking he came to me and said, thanks for your words I never saw it that way.
  • 2 0
 1. Moto c*nts
2.NSW Orienteering members/associates who deliberately damage trails and set up traps like pulling logs across after drops or placing rocks around blind turns.
3. Moto c*nts
  • 2 1
 Much of the commentariat is so funny. The same people going, "No trail can contain me. Switchbacks are for dopes. I ride in any condition!!" have a youtube search history from two years ago that was "how to bunny hop" and commenting on Skills with Phil with "which biek should I buy?"
  • 1 0
 As a trail builder and maintainer my biggest things that I hate are a local government who doesn't ride the trails and they tell me what I can and cannot do. Next would be a over population who comes in and votes for the first thing I hate.
  • 1 0
 As someone who does regular trail maintenance, here's the only thing that will make me lose my cool. If I'm out mowing or trimming with a hedger, DO NOT blow by me like you were winning a World Cup race. I would feel really bad if you went into the blades and I hacked your ankles off. Seriously, I'd probably never forgive myself, even though it would have been 100% your fault for not slowing the f*ck down, announcing yourself and waiting for a safe place to pass. I'm giving up my riding time to mow and trim the trails so the multiflora rose doesn't rip your arms open, leaving a clear path for the poison ivy and deer ticks to ruin your health. I'm sorry if you won't beat that Strava time today. The trail will be faster the next time after you can actually see where you're going. /rant
  • 4 2
 riding in the wet winter days and leaving huge ruts that look like moto marks wrecking the trail by rendering it into a bumpy rutted nightmare in just a few rides.
  • 6 6
 Hey, some people enjoy riding that stuff.
  • 2 0
 @skerby: come on out and bring shovels on trail days to repair it then! UI stay off wet, muddy trails to respect the trail ergo the builder. You can do whatever you want go ahead and destroy yer drive trains.lol
  • 2 1
 @skerby: SOME PEOPLE EAT BATS.
  • 1 0
 Some people are actually inconsiderate enough to leave wrappers on their mothers living room floor... Ugh! Thank You for creating this video and the need for awareness around these topics!
  • 4 4
 Great video, thanks Christina; it’s long overdue.

I would love to see some follow-up videos that cover who has right of way when climbing vs descending, what your responsibilities are if you bring a dog onto the trails (including cleaning up its poop), and how Ebikers can effectively share the trails with those who pedal, including how to interpret “this trail is for non motorized use” signs.
  • 2 2
 Why do e-bikes need special rules for sharing? They should be following exactly the same as everyone else.

"This trail is for non motorized use" signs are pretty easy. If you have motor/engine providing tractive power, you don't ride on that trail. Done. (Exceptions for adaptive vehicles like a powered trike or such as usual.)
  • 4 1
 Every single edit ever posted to PB glorifies skidding. Every f*cking one. Gee, how'd that end up on the do not do list??
  • 3 3
 There was a lot of dogshit in bags missing from that littering complaint, tons of it.

Let's not bullshit eachother. Everyone who rides 8 hours monthly including children can put in time doing trail work. 12 hours a year is reasonable. Anyone is using trail orgs for cheap labor.

Also here's the refined version of trail etiquette to trails where money doesn't build them for you.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNf765pdaMM
  • 6 1
 Bro I work full time, am a student part time, and work part time for an NGO, all year round. I'm always happy to pay in beers and dues and am eternally grateful to builders for doing what they do, but outside of some moments in summer I also very rarely have time for that shit myself despite actually enjoying it. I bike for my own mental sanity; that 8 hours a month squeezed out of my schedule is sacred time I'm not going to spend elsewhere regardless of philanthropic benefit.
  • 4 1
 @Peally: Nailed it. Time is money, and not everyone has the time so they send money instead. Would they rather thousands of people with lack of building skills and questionable enthusiasm show up for a work day, and also have no money coming in? Or would they rather have thousands of riders worth of dues and core group of people who have skills and enthusiasm about building, who can then also teach those who might have enthusiasm but lacking skills.
  • 3 5
 @Peally: Yah those excuses still mean nothing. 12 Hours a year from any student Joey who whips out 3 hour long rides on the weekly? C'mon. Builders aren't your servants dood.
  • 2 2
 @justinfoil: So if time is money are you implying every volunteer building or maintaining trail should get paid for it? Because I'm certain those building and maintaining are donating funds too. Trail orgs are fast becoming cheap labor unions and that concept needs to die.
  • 3 0
 @vindee: this is a tough one. I’d love to get paid for my time, but it’s also stoking me out big time to see our local trail scene explode. Our volunteers are all stoked to pitch in too. No way this would ever happen if we needed to get paid. Also, I’m totally fine if someone wants to just buy a membership. No foul if you can’t show up to dig, your funds are appreciated. Our build parties are rad though, and we regularly draw a huge crowd.
  • 2 1
 @Silocycle: that's the spirit! Make people WANT to help by making helping out a f*cking rad thing to do.
  • 2 1
 @vindee: cheap labor? Isn't it free if it's all volunteers? And that's the point: the volunteers. Some people volunteer time, some volunteer money, some both. If you feel your time working is enough, go ahead and skip a donation if you want. I don't think anyone is going to tell at you, a _volunteer_ doing free work.

Thing is for public trails on public land, this is the way: they're free for all. If enough people care, they get better. If no one cares, they fade away. But it's easier to get people to care by giving them options to help out. If my choice was do X hours of work or not ride in a certain place, I would probably find a new place to ride and then the original place gains nothing, because free hours are slim-pickings over here with 2 toddlers in the house. But since I can also help out with my membership dues and\or other monetary donations, everyone gains: I get trails to ride, trail org gets cash to spend, my daughters get time with their dad to spend on learning how to ride, so someday they might donate time and money to those same trails)
  • 1 2
 @Silocycle: that's all really nice preach, but you won't be maintaining trail forever and preaching this with validation once your time goes elsewhere. Meantime builders work hundreds of hours only to get it destroyed by Joeys backing you over a PB patronizing post. That's never been how trail advocacy actually works.
  • 2 0
 @vindee: I'm in my 30s literally working pro bono for a volunteer organization. But with all of your assumptions about me you're absolutely free to kiss my ass.
  • 1 2
 @Peally: I do too including unsanctioned trail that are managed with no money and have to continue putting up with a*sholes f*cking trail and exploiting organizations as cheap labor becauses asses like you encourage the spoiled behavior. Ditch the assumptions bullshit and look at what the entire mtb trails scene is putting up with.
  • 2 1
 @vindee: We may not be comparing apples to apples here. If not for a niche community investing their own time and money to a common goal with landowner consent, where does the money and expertise come from? Our land owner/partners don't have it.
The other major benefit in our scenario is the quality of the trail being produced. We, the users have total control over the quality. I'd love to hear you expand on what the better arrangement would be, but in the mean time I feel like we're doing great. We have sanctioned trails where there were none three years ago, and a solid community forming around it. We do have an eye to the sustainability of the system. Steps are being taken. I feel good about it. Don't feel cheated or slave like (quite a boushy comparison in itself!)
I may have a concept of what you'd prefer to see going on, but I'll let you paint the picture.
  • 2 0
 @vindee: lmfao yep that's me, running around exploiting you and f*cking your trail orgs. Jesus Christ, you need to hang out on the internet less and ride bikes more.
  • 1 1
 @Peally: If you and your Greenbay, Wi. cowpasture lines even had a grain of comparison to the shitshow builders deal with across the west coast you'd see your preach is little more than brick wall with no substance. Enjoy your punchlines in your population of 12 and a gopher.
  • 1 1
 @Silocycle: Quality of trail isn't actually a thing. My freeride line is a blast and not on some sustainable grade checklist, but isn't some sidewalk dull line you might think is quality. The video to this forum discusses everything about a trail that claims to be sustainable ridden by a base of ridership that has no idea or interest in what sustainable trails are and believe that money makes trail and solves trail problems.
Also mtb is not a community, only subgroups. MTB is a sport with groups of riders and individuals with their own interests in using and abusing trail. And you can beat everyone in the head about progression in your local area about what your group is developing trail into but remember that not everyone wants what you want or what you think everyone should have in trail. Some take matters in to their own hands to make what they want to ride that doesn't involve your territory. If you want to work for free to a base of riders who exploit it, make money off it and capitalize from it than go for it, but keep them in your area and stop fueling some idea that entitlement over a couple bucks in club fees gives them the same generalized *my money builds your riding* entitlement everywhere, because it doesn't.
  • 1 0
 @Peally: Cool Story Bro
  • 4 0
 No riding in the mud = no riding at all here...
  • 4 2
 How about stop manicuring raw trails! Take your shifty flow trails, IPA chugging, latte drinking, plaid wearing, and mustache growing away from my local trails!
  • 2 0
 I get you have to make videos to create a body of work for private equity to valuate your online footprint to then buy you guys, but can you summarize videos in text as well?
  • 1 0
 Ah, the culture of doing something selfish and "F'ing the next guy".

Etiquette is the common sense of considering how to act in order to not cause excessive inconvenience to others you are sharing space with.
  • 2 0
 Guilty of riding in the mud, but didn't know this was a problem. Will be more careful about this for future treks (it's a challenge in Vancouver area). Thanks for video.
  • 1 0
 If you are using trailforks you can check the trail you are planning to ride to see if it is a good for all weather conditions. A number of the trails on the North shore have been built to withstand heavy traffic and being ridden in the wet. When it is raining I usually route my plan for the ride around trails that can be ridden in wet conditions. Before trail forks, I had the Wade Simmons trail guide which did a fantastic job of classifying trails on what conditions they can be ridden.
  • 3 2
 They forgot illigal trail etiquitte, such as: Ask a builder before riding, No dig no ride, Never reporting, NO STRAVA OR TRAILFORKS, No social media, No blasting music, No mud/snow tires.
  • 4 0
 My God. I think I hate everyone here.
  • 3 0
 7-Tidy little bags of dog shit on the trail waiting for the dog shit fairy to collect.
  • 1 1
 This is an excellent presentation and really good stuff. However, I’m concerned that in the future, PinkBike might present us with social justice lectures relating to mountain biking. PinkBike forum participants opposing this ideology could be banned. I sincerely hope PinkBike doesn’t mix politics/social justice with their commentaries!!!!
  • 2 0
 These are commandments, not recommendations. They forgot the part about leaving beer for the builders. Builders probably too shy to say it, but we know they love it.
  • 2 0
 those take offs, made by kids, which send you to the moon. Huge take offs for small jumps...
  • 3 1
 Excellent video -- thank you for this. Braiding and skidding -- just stop it already.
  • 3 0
 Trash is one of the worst! And freakin cigarette butts!
  • 2 0
 I bet Christina forgot to include trail builder Brage Vestavik for this poll!
  • 2 0
 This video needs to be watched by the new crop of rider / facebook warriors we have in Colorado Springs.
  • 3 0
 #1 skidding

@mikelevy, you listening?
  • 4 3
 You mean the guy who intentionally runs tires that skid easier? Nah, it's not that. Maybe he just doesn't actually know how to corner, as the video implies none of us know how to do.
  • 5 3
 Trail builders that block old trails as they make what "they" think is better, my #1 peeve

#2, leaf blowing idiots
  • 3 7
flag justinfoil (May 17, 2021 at 12:35) (Below Threshold)
 Often times those reroutes _are_ to make it better. Maybe the trail eroded enough to expose a root that is getting beat up and hurting the tree. Maybe the water flows shifted and there is a new permanent wet spot appearing. Maybe a root go beat up and a tree died and fell along the trail and it's easier to move the trail slightly. So many things. Plus, the trail builders probably _know_ it's better. If you know more than them, maybe you should be the builder? Then get to work!
  • 2 2
 @justinfoil: You do a lot of preach for someone talking a lot like you know nothing to what you're preaching about. Start with building one single trail because it's clear you've done nothing of the sort.
  • 4 5
 I'm not condoning straight lining trails but sometimes the trail is built in a way that guarantees riders will straight line it. For example a straight away descent that randomly horseshoes tightly around a tree when it could have just went straight. Riders will straight line that. You can argue about right and wrong but your trail will get straight lined. Builders also need to be aware of their trail will actually get used.
  • 2 2
 You're not condoning straight lining but you're telling builders, the labor workers sacrificing their ride time, to accept it. Way to marginalize their effort as anything more than workerbees there Sampson.
  • 5 0
 @vindee: As a builder I'm saying certain trail design decisions guarantee straight lining. It doesn't matter if they accept it or not.
  • 1 0
 Couldn’t care about skidding but when people go out and change or remove existing features without permission it blows my mind.
  • 3 0
 Dig the lip, I busta ya face.
  • 3 0
 So, i guess it's don't do what 50to01 does on their videos.
  • 2 1
 If you look at the home page on pinkbike, half of the videos posted are breaking rule #1. Usually in glorious slow motion of all the roost being thrown off the trails.
  • 3 0
 Best way to stop skidders. Grease up their rotors. Problem solved.
  • 1 0
 Mike Levy should be forced to repeatedly watch this video and apologize after trying to impress Gee with his skidding and braiding skills. Really sad Mike.
  • 1 0
 Yeah Mike. Haha
  • 2 1
 At Tiger mountain the ever present question is: “is the new trail good to ride in the wet?” A: no. Never.
  • 1 1
 Says the guy that's never rebuilt a trail.
  • 1 0
 Simple solutions.... Build your own and keep that on lockdown.... That way you can ride anyway you want...
  • 2 1
 thank you Christina, very simple rules, shouldn't be too hatd to follow rhem I suppose
  • 5 4
 Thank you Christina, for telling us we all don't know how to corner; that trail builders always build perfect corners that have perfect traction in all conditions; that you're not allowed to make any dirt move at all when you're biking.
  • 2 0
 Rogue trails are legit, got it Smile
  • 5 7
 How about... 6 things Riders Hate about other Riders. 1. Stopping ON trail to inspect features 2. Stopping ON trail to change flats 3. XC jabronies not giving right-of-way to downhillers 4. Not sending it when all you do is talk about sending it 5. The aluminum vs carbon debate 6. Asking for someone's bike weight
  • 2 1
 Bike weight is often a closely guarded and ambiguous secret by manufacturers for some reason, it makes sense to actually try and get real, functional, operating bike weights in the real world
All 4 of my bikes either had no weight listed by manufacturer or it was the classic formula: no pedals, no cables, no grips, XXS frame
34 lbs, 33 lbs, 32 lbs, 29lbs bikes by the way, ask me on the trail anytime and I’ll be happy to talk about bikes with you
  • 1 0
 If we don't have builders - you can come ride in the woods out behind my house. Come on over!
  • 2 0
 Hey that anonymous bad girl has the same bike as Christina Chapetta!
  • 1 0
 Great video, but what's with the colour grading on the edit? Does Christina really have green skin?
  • 5 6
 You forgot about all the kooks blasting trail names and locations (and youtubers) so that every tourist goon can come tear up the trails that we worked so hard in. Downvote away kooks.
  • 9 2
 If you want private trails, build on private property and make sure the property is properly signed. If you build on public property, you're not allowed to get pissed if other people find it.
  • 2 1
 Werd
  • 3 0
 f r a g i l e
  • 1 0
 The first 6 riders hitting the feature you've just built and cared for 2 weeks of rain just a minute before you.
  • 1 1
 I would report on Trailforks but that fact that I can’t use the app now without paying $9 a month. What happened? It used to be free!
  • 2 1
 Seriously though, does nobody believe in trail fairies building for the love of it anymore.
  • 2 0
 This. Riders are always commenting on how I should be the one getting paid for the trail work I do and I have to ask them why when paying the "pros" apparently hasn't been working out.
  • 2 0
 I'm convinced most people don't care if builders do it for enjoyment, but only care if the trail suits their selfish interests and that's what's killing off trail builders' passions. Builders are recognizing their work is being exploited.
  • 15 15
 People who join the association and think their work is done. Come to a build.
  • 22 8
 Some people just dont have the time, but can pay their dues in other ways. No need to be elitist.
  • 7 9
 @noplacelikeloam: It's my answer to the question. Not sure how putting your hands in the dirt and building trails is elitist. I never said you have to come every weekend.
  • 5 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: it's not that doing the actual work is elitist, it's saying that those who don't "put their hands in the dirt" haven't done anything. Some people pay & dig, some just dig (are they "not done" because they didn't do the pay part? Materials have to come from somewhere), some just pay (as said before, time\scheduling is often an issue for some people), and some just ride.

If everyone who donated also came a build day, there would be too many people, anyway.
  • 4 3
 @justinfoil: Some people just ride. You nailed it. Oh yeah and there are a million excused not to build. Good point too. I'd forgot about that.
  • 4 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: And they're totally allowed to just ride. That's the thing about making trails on public land: it's an open-ended prospect. The builders put it out there, and people can use it for free. The point is to make it so awesome that people want more, so they search out how to get more, and maybe they end up donating money and/or time.
  • 5 10
flag Adamrideshisbike (May 17, 2021 at 12:47) (Below Threshold)
 @justinfoil: For sure dude. Trailbuilding is not for everyone. But to answer the initial question, what do trailbuilders hate (or maybe a peeve is more accurate), it's the dude that is always riding, wears hats and t-shirts, loves the Strav, has the van, but never comes to builds.
  • 4 2
 @Adamrideshisbike: We can't wear hats or t-shirts? Strava or van use automatically means we don't pay dues or do builds?

Again, that's the point of trail groups: not everyone can build, but many (most?) can, and do, spare some dollars. Would you rather have literally everyone show up to a build but have no money for materials or tools? Or would you rather have _enthusiastic_ builders with a nice budget for sweet builds?
  • 2 9
flag Adamrideshisbike (May 17, 2021 at 13:47) (Below Threshold)
 @justinfoil: I’m moving on captain obvious.
  • 5 0
 I haven't had time to help build, but do financially support the trail assoc where I ride.
  • 3 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: hmmm, I stopped to chat to a trail builder doing work a few months ago, mostly to say thanks. I mentioned I need to get out an build and his response, was contributing money was the best thing I could do.
  • 1 3
 @riklassen: You must have been annoying him and he didn't want to see you again.
  • 2 2
 Replacing "riding in the wet" with "telling a trail builder what feature they should build" is more realistic in the UK
  • 3 0
 So no one wants feedback? No suggestions allowed? Just leave the entire burden of creativity on the builder? The users have no say?
  • 1 2
 @justinfoil: pretty much
  • 2 2
 @Yaan: Well, that's pretty shitty. Why would would I donate my time or money to help that process continue?
  • 2 2
 @justinfoil: correct, glad you're finally catching on. Want feedback? Go build trail and ask for it.
  • 1 0
 @justinfoil: If you want to give feedback, join a dig, find out what restraints there are and what it takes to build a trail. Then you have earned the right
  • 3 2
 Nothing lasts for ever.. Fix and re build or move on to a new trails.
  • 2 1
 Unsustainable swine hahaha
  • 5 8
 Definitely respect the work of trail builders and I think every rider who's capable should at least put SOME time in for trail maintenance themselves. That said, skidding/skandi flicks are just part of the sport. They're fun to do! Damage happens and trails need maintenance. It is what it is. Let people have fun!
  • 6 3
 Well said, skidding and skandi flicks are just plain rad. The solution to used/damaged trails is more maintenance/improvement (hopefully from a growing community of trail builders) not restriction. I’m not afraid to put some time into building trails and I don’t get mad when I see people shredding up the trail I just repaired as long as they’re smiling and having fun at it.
  • 4 0
 thing is the same people that maintain the trails are probably the same ones building new trails for you. So it would make sense to ride with a lower impact, which frees up the builders time, so you can have more new trails. Take a second and think about it.
  • 2 0
 @Spindelatron: think about it and then go out and maintain your trails to really free up the builders time
  • 1 1
 You had me supportin ya for a second. Not gonna lie.
  • 2 2
 All you Joeys talkin about bro skids being cool that don't actually manage trail. Don't act like you do because nobody support carving in this era of building.
  • 4 0
 @ThiloSchmidt-Werthern: what if I told you I am the builder?
  • 2 0
 @Spindelatron: sorry if i it was unclear it was meant as a motivation for riders/ non builders to think about where the trails they ride come from and then to go out and maintain the trails someone has build in order to repair what they have damaged by riding it Smile
(trailbuilder myself)
  • 2 1
 Rake and ride. Improve later.
  • 1 1
 Because everyone is stepping up to do all of that all the time right?
  • 8 11
 Bunch of tight-assed nerds. "You guys! Ugh.. you know you cant do this and you cant do that...wah wahh"

How's about 95% of you actually learn how to ride a bike without flipping OTB on a tiny root before suggesting what people should and shouldn't be doing in the trails.

Rule 1: Don't be a d*ck and mess with someone elses build.
Rule 2: Don't be a d*ck and litter.
Rule 3: Go online to PB and be a huge d*ck in the comments, then watch all the tight-assed nerds get upset. Laugh, Rinse and Repeat.

Nailed it.
  • 1 0
 All of which are common sense. Or in the days we live, uncommon sense.
  • 2 0
 Ride It Dont Slide It
  • 2 0
 Skids are lame..
  • 1 0
 Great video and great respect for the builders. Thank you.
  • 1 2
 Skidding for days and you can't stop me. Front wheel, back wheel, both wheels. Skid, skid, skid ,skid skid skiddy skiddity skid skid
  • 1 0
 VERY good video, much needed, Thank you :-)
  • 1 0
 I don't always cut corners, but when I do, I make sure to yell "Strava"
  • 1 0
 @Krzymndyd: ya didn't have to name drop any spots... ironic
  • 1 1
 I’m in school too. Learning about congruent triangles.
  • 3 4
 1. Videos suck 2. I will not subscribe to your YouTube channel 3. Go ride your damn bike
  • 6 2
 4. Ey Leo, get your lazy ass off PB and go make me a trail so I can fk it.
  • 3 3
 @vindee: 5. go f*** yourself “vindee”. Short for vin diesel??? Not so fast and furious???
  • 3 1
 @justinfoil: love you too you self entitled @#$%.
  • 1 1
 ^referred to Leo
  • 2 4
 Everyone remember watching Jesse Malamed skidding into turns on his Instagram then coming on to PB acting passive about it? Yah we do.
  • 3 4
 My apologies for skidding round the inside of your berms. It's just way more fun. Sos
  • 1 0
 Strava.
  • 2 1
 7 insta cutties
  • 2 0
 Fuck your down votes
  • 1 1
 I do all these things. Fuck trail builders. I do what I want.
  • 18 20
 Get heavy bikes (E-Bikes) off of sensitive trails. The extra weight must be accelerating trail erosion.
  • 16 8
 The weight of E-bikes have little to do with the accelerated trail erosion, it's the number of laps they are capable of that causes the increased damage. Instead of doing two laps of your favorite trail and being tired and call it a day, you are now doing four.
  • 4 2
 @5-9-A2: Good point.
  • 2 1
 @5-9-A2: +1 on that . I would add that this year BOOM in mountain bike popularity this year will makes trail maintenance more demanding. Our little trail spot opens quite sooner than over city around and in April we had so many "tourrist" come to ride early that it just ruined the maintenance that was previously done
  • 9 4
 This. Though it has nothing to do with the weight of the bike, but the weight of the ego & entitlement of the rider multiplied by the lack of skill & etiquette
  • 3 2
 @focofox37: So all e-bike riders are entitled pricks who don't care about other people or the trails and have no skill? And this somehow doesn't ever apply to people on (even more expensive) analog bikes?
  • 6 1
 @focofox37: Poor riding technique is the single biggest erosion issue.
A rear brake at the hands of a Joey will cause much more erosion than an experienced rider on an ebike.
  • 3 1
 @Yaan: You do realize that actual hard riding also wears on the trails? It's not just skids that have an effect. Yes, unnecessary skids do unnecessary wear, but getting in 2 to 3 times the laps at a faster average speed is also going to have a really big effect. Potentially a bigger effect, since the skidding joey is going to be limited in the amount of trail they can skid on just based on the fact that they're not as good and hence not as fast and thus not covering as much ground. Where as the e-biker is throwing an extra 200-400 watts into the trail, and also braking down from those boosted speeds, over a vastly larger area of trails.
  • 4 5
 @justinfoil: This. One of my trials got blasted by youtubers and other weasels. It’s a 4 mile fire road climb to the trail that usually keeps regular bikes to 1 lap.
E bikers now doing 3-4+ laps on their behemoth sleds. Some of these A holes are doing this 4 times a week. Trail is a mess.
  • 3 0
 @justinfoil: The trails I maintain are fast Dh tracks that have been trashed by slow riders not the guys at speed on DH bikes. 7 minutes of constant braking wears more than 3 minutes of not much braking.
I'm talking shuttled laps, i've seen ebikes on these trails but they were not having that much fun.
I enjoy the trail work but only for the purpose of the trail, being slow and walking half the trail is not what a fast DH track is for.
  • 2 0
 @Yaan: even worse, Joey on a rental ebike
  • 1 3
 @youseeus: decommission it and lay out traps. trails f*cked, so is their exploitation of it. move on.
  • 2 0
 I doubt this. An extra 7 lbs per tire?
  • 1 0
 @justinfoil: They don't want to admit that you and others don't do shit for trailwork effort to match the needed labor to sustain trail. But they do need your money to stay relevant. Feel proud yet?
  • 5 1
 @vindee: lay out traps? What the f*ck is wrong with you?
  • 1 1
 @Yaan: maybe you need to make better squirrel catchers if so many allegedly shitty riders are getting in so deep over their head on your trails that they constantly f*ck it up by going slow.
  • 2 0
 @justinfoil: in the works.
  • 4 2
 Not weight erosion but, MobilitEbikes are definitely damaging trails at my local forest loops. There's many twisty technical sections where the extra power an speed takes away thier ability to corner properly an they just straight line everything in their path! This is making the single track trail a wide mess allowing more puddles an mud that trail builder volunteers need to waste time repairing instead of building new trails and improving existing lines. FK em
  • 1 3
 @5-9-A2: the weight of e-bikes has a lot to do with erosion to trail and inertia on damaging dh during slowdown . Just like the weight from motos. That is unless you've never ridden a soft trail in your life and wouldn't understand any of that.
  • 1 0
 @justinfoil: its really more of the first.
  • 1 1
 @justinfoil: nothings wrong with me. What kind if selfish fk destroys hundreds of hours of labor intentionally?
  • 1 4
 @focofox37: it is also the weight of e-bikes. Nice try diverting the problem.
  • 2 0
 @vindee: If that is the case should we impose a weight limit for riders? Using weight as the cause of the erosion is a weak argument, while not completely wrong it isn't correct either. It's the fact that an e-bike rider is able to cover more distance and do more laps that increases the wear on the trails.

The weight of a motobike isn't the reason they cause damage, it's the spinning of their knobby tires that causes the damage.
  • 2 1
 @5-9-A2: Anyone that claims they can't identify the e-bike track on a dh line is lying. Any actual builders would identify them in a sec. It's whether they choose to lie about it in support of their access. But if they do, they need to manage their damage.
  • 2 0
 @vindee: easy to see the mobilitE bike track on a DH line...
When I'm constantly stuck behind the FKers!! :'D
  • 1 3
 Nailed it Christina! Thank you!! This should be a sticky on top of all the other content for a year.
  • 2 5
 lmao i can dig the no littering, otherwise meh
  • 2 4
 Slash corners FTW.
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