I've always been a proponent of not riding more bike than I need, and Sea Otter's dusty dirt lanes don't exactly require the latest in down-country technology. Instead, I needed something small, agile, and that I could fold in half for easier portaging up those stairs that nearly killed me on that motorbike. The final day's mission: track down a bunch of the latest (and maybe greatest) suspension forks from the folks at RockShox, Fox, Marzocchi, X-Fusion, Trust, Öhlins, MRP, and DVO. One of those outfits had a prototype coil-sprung shock to show us, too.
There's more than suspension forks out there, though. Sarah Moore spotted
Kaysee Armstrong's Liv prototype, and RC sat down with Pole's Leo Kokkonen to
learn about their wild looking Stamina 140. Speaking of wild looking,
Bowhead Adaptive e-Bikes showed RC their articulating front suspension that helps to keep the vehicle stable without requiring widely spaced front wheels.
MENTIONS: @pinkbikeoriginals
bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/spy-shot-manitou-long-travel-suspension-spotted-sun-ringle-super-bubba-hubs-return
Freeride is the new Downcountry
Will be interesting to see the first test
" The product the company seems was most excited about is a new fork with 37mm stanchions. I was told the fork is 25% stiffer than a Fox 36 while weighing only 1992 grams. Stiffness is apparently comparable to the new RockShox Lyrik but it weighs a little less."
I am not joking, at all. The MC2 damper is just as sophisticated as a charger, and more easily tuned and serviced. Its light years ahead of the original Grip, and can definitely keep up with a Grip2 or Fit4. Haudraulic bottom out is a really great feature many others lack. And, you get the option is several different air springs, one of which (IRT) is in my opinion, better than what RS and Fox uses and also highly tunable and way more refined than tokens and volume reducers.
The Mattoc Pro is a really good fork - I would pick it over a Pike any day of the week - of which, I have owned numerous btw. And it's much much much better than the Marzocchi forks with the basic grip damper, and basic air spring. I'm not sure how you can even debate that if you have owned and ridden a Pro, and know what goes into one of these Z1 forks?
All i can say is I regret the mattoc, the pike just feels liveless.
Just found this
www.instagram.com/p/BrOWpK7lDbL/?hl=en
In the comments Manitou are stating there are some 2019 updates coming for the Dorado. Got it! Sounds wicked!
Also Manitou leg diameter is a BS, just because legs are fatter by 1mm doesn't mean the fork is stiffer. Crown and arch construction, then axle interface play a role too. Manitou Sherman from 2006 may be just as stiff as current Lyrik. 32mm uppers but Fatter crown and hex axle with pinch bolts.
and that 1mm difference is dumb, for the reasons you list.
Carry on!
www.instagram.com/p/BroYpVZFCHK/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1o9jdywhzuukd
At any rate, I'm all for choices and having Manitou back in the mix as a legit choice makes me happy.
appreciate the Insta link
At least X-Fusion, SR Suntour and Manitou pass their overshore production cost efficiencies along to the consumer by offering a better value. Fox and Rockshox are premium level prices, produced overseas, with sometimes difficult aftermarket support.
Both offer exemplary customer service.
Won't ever buy from r/s fox ever again.
That's all well and good, but when I'm paying $1000 for a fork, if I have to choose among equals, I'll always choose the stuff that's manufactured right down the road versus overseas. That's my prerogative, but I always hope that other consumers have the same ideals, and that either pushes A) more domestic manufacturing or B) cheaper, lighter, better performing products from overseas manufacturers (like Suntour, X-Fusion, Manitou, offer.)
........and X-fusion were good too
The power of big brand marketing tends to lure most to what they're told is better rather than what is actually better.
I was told Fox is moving their facility to Reno right now, which is why I'm having a delay.
First they are all great forks...we truly are in the golden age of MTB right now! I'm no reviewer and I don't actually notice much difference between the 3 right in the moment when charging down the trail. But I race for fun and what I did notice was, once I had all three set up properly... riding as fast as I could through a familiar gnarly trail, which fork not only gave me the best time, but gave me less arm pump, fatigue and just felt the most fun while making the bike overall easier to control. It was the MRP that stood out to me.
I think, being able to adjust the negative chamber (higher pressure than the positive) allows you to run a positive pressure that is based purely on your mid stroke (the most important part of the stroke really). You can sort of ignore factoring in small bump and bottom out. So you get that pressure dialed in, then adjust the negative chamber to give you a very supple off the top feel that mimics coil that neither the Fox or RS forks could quite match. Then you adjust the ramp control for bottom out based on what you're riding that day. Fast chunk with big holes and g-outs = turn it up some, slower tech = turn it down some, fast flow that is smooth but has some bigger jumps and drops = turn it way up (can handle the big drops and is super supportive for pushing through the berms, but again because of that negative chamber still soaks up smaller repetitive hits easily). All without having to adjust the pressure at all.
I like the Lyric better than the 36 for small bump, big chunk and technical trail, but the MRP matched or is better. I liked the 36 better than the Lyric for faster bermy flow with jumps/drops and fast hard hitting riding, but again the MRP matched or is better. It's like you can make the MRP feel like the RS or Fox when and if you want.. But you can't make the Fox or RS feel like or be as multi-dimensional as the MRP.
Twin tube damper + neg chamber + ramp control = best fork I've been on. (haven't tried anything from Cane Creek, Manitou, Ohlins or Suntour)
Then, if you want, for a $190 you can toss in MRP's coil conversion kit in there (if you didn't buy the coil version of the fork already).
Anyway, I've been on it for a few months now, raced it a couple weekends ago, let me know if you have any questions.
I'm personally on G2 and loving it. Well... in all honestly at this very second I've got a Z1 on my bike that I'm giving a whirl... but prior was a G2 36.
Glad you found your zone.
Also your running 26Plus tires in there anyway. BB clearance issues?
Your acting like manufacturers just slapped 27.5 stickers on their old 26" forks and sold them...? Not the case.
As for MRP... They had been making/licensing White Bros forks. But when they started selling forks under MRP the stage fork was designed around 27.5 and 29. Yes you can run a 26" wheel in them. And yes they are marketing it as such. BECAUSE they don't make a 26" fork... Most 29er forks are also marketed as 27.5+ too, doesn't change that it's a 29er fork.
It takes more than offset to make a fork wheel-size specific.
Admittedly his old Magura is a 26" fork that takes 26x2.6 and therefore some decent 27.5 tires. But not 27.5x 2.5WT/2.6 tires on wide rims with mud clearance! And once you allow for all that especially without sacrificing in strength, weight, etc. you've just made it into a 27.5 fork chassis.
Honestly, I have no dog in the fight. I think the "trickle" of 26 specific parts is just because there is a saturated "old stock" 26er market right now. So unless there's a specific sales niche that isn't being filled by parts sitting in warehouses it's risky to invest in new product development???
Funny you seem to think I'm running plus size tires. These are 26x2.4" front and rear. As I said, it were the bigger wheels which initially went down to narrower tires but 26x2.4" really was quite normal. I'm not using those tires anymore, but the front tire you see in the picture is a Schwalbe Racing Ralph, which is an XC racing tire. I thought 2.5" would be wide trail and plus only starts at 2.6 or even bigger. So this is far from plus!
Speaking of 26x2.6, the reason I thought that's what you were running is because you mentioned them. Because I saw the RR and jumped to them being NN's which come in 2.6. (at least they do in 27.5/29er?) AND cause your saying that fork has clearance for 27.5x2.4, but if you have 26" wheels in there now it doesn't look like there's clearance for a much larger wheel/tire???
For sure back in the day when people were experimenting with 650B they were using existing narrow rims with a pretty small selection of mostly smaller tires. Which is why I think once you updated the fork, even with the double arch, to fit new, wide, big 27.5's then it's no longer a 26".
Anyway, we can agree to disagree...?
Later...
I for one disagree. I see a resurgence of 26 in the market and if someone made the correct for it they'd sell a ton of product. The first generation of dirt jumping mtb riders are becoming parents right now. And because of that, you're seeing a HUGE surge in pump tracks all over the nation. I see more dads with little kids at the pump tracks these days than shredders... depending on the hour. LOL! And most of them are like me... they don't want to just stand there and watch and they don't want to go full kook and ride their trail bikes on the pump track.
I think if the right company came out with a quality 26 specific dj fork with some options they'd crush the market. Will they sell 25k forks like some other lines do. Nope. But they'll sell enough to justify the tooling. And if it's done right, the tooling will last for 5 years or so. The right company in my mind is Marzocchi. They can use trickle down FOX technology to create a Z1 or Z2 based fork that's 26 specific. It'd be bullet proof and in the right price range. Talking sub $500.
This would allow companies to offer full DJ builds with a quality fork on it for $1000. Can't do that with the FOX 831... the fork runs $1k. If you can offer dads a solid built complete dj bike with a trouble free fork on it for $1000-1300.... you'd sell a lot.
Look around and they're all running crap forks. Not too many dudes really need a freaking Factory 36 on the front of their DJ bike.
Everyone complains that they didn't do a coil fork... but they had to start somewhere. It's a complete rebuild of the product and the company. The product was going downhill, the service was horrible, the company was failing. FOX is trying to rebuild it.
The alternative is that they'd be gone completely.... or purchased by a company with inferior product and/or resources to FOX.... I ask... which is the sadder result?
I recently looked at the newer Z1/2 as I needed a replacement for the 55 but, even with the £100 off for my old 55 deal that's up at the mo, I still got a top end Pike dual position for less £ .........
I'd love to buy Marz but I can get a REAL Fox or RS for less
sad
Yeah, we can always disagree a little, nothing bad about that . Cheers!
But it's all a moot point if wide rims aren't in the equation! Large volume tires without wide rims to support them roll over unless you use high pressures totally defeating the purpose. (OR the tire casing would have to be so stiff it wouldn't be any good) You'd be back to needing to design new fork lowers.
And if your creating new fork lowers that are going to fit a 26x2.8 Plus tire that needs a wide rim then what financial gain would you have over just using any up to date 27.5 fork casting?
Then again if your putting 26" purely into the DJ Niche then how subtle does that dampener need to be? Per the other post, the Manitou Circus is also not a crap fork. And other than being a little heavier a lot of people are really happy with Xfusion these days. NO, they are probably not as good as 831's with a Grip2; but your saying that's overkill anyway, (which seems to conflict with your whole concept of wanting a really good fork for for half the cost?)
Therefore, dampener opinions aside, any Dad in the US can walk into their local Specialized dealer right now and get the bike your talking about...
Also, you don't "need" a 26" bike for DJ. Sure it's a little better since most DJ/pump tracks are built for the cadence of smaller BMX bikes. But for the occasional trip to the local pump N jump with the kids any real mountain bike will do. If you have a modern trail bike your golden with some suspension tweaks. If you have a modern trail hardtail then done! Wheel size be damned. (most Dads standing on the side lines are doing that because they don't want to look like an out of practice newb! when they've told their kids how RAD they used to be! jkn. Obviously there are gonna be some Dads that money is holding them back. BUT "cheap" 26" DJ bikes have ALWAYS been available. GT, Mongoose, Haro, etc. chainreaction)
I just googled through most of the "old school" DJ mountain bikes and IMO if the STP, Chase are gone, Jackels, Tickets, Shonkey's are frame only. Then it's because people are just not buying enough of them to justify production. It's not because there aren't forks to spec.
I think you read something into what I said that you wanted to be in there... and wasn't. And ran with it.
The pike DJ is $900 and if I'm spending $900 I'm just gonna drop the extra dough and get the 831. It's a far superior fork.
Funny story... I talked to a couple different companies that do limited runs of dj frames this week... and they all said... crazy thing is... doesn't matter how many we make they all sell...
I really think you're on your own mission so carry on.
You brought up the 831, Fox "trickle down technology" and the 500 dollar price point. Seems like you were asking for 1000 dollar fork tech for 500 bucks. Yes you do go back to the Z's. But you ended the whole thing about how everyone is on CRAP forks... OR 831's. SO it sure seems like your wanting a 50% off fork there?
It's too bad Fox is using Zoke as their budget option. Cause the easiest thing to do is make a performance level 831. Aught to be nothing put pulling parts from existing bins and building them up? But I doubt they would sell it below $700. So I'm not sure that helps your request much.
As far as the 26" DJ market. I really have no idea. But generally speaking, if a product catagory is successful it's full of competition. I was pretty surprised at the lack of of DJ MTB's available from the brands that used to be pretty deep into the business.
And as far as getting a 26" Z2, the issue would be that you'd need enough OEM business to make it worth the upfront cost. And as noted above, frame only. Course there are for sure more than just those few big brands making 26" bikes. BUT those few big brands usually carry the whole OEM market?
If those two companies you spoke to are selling everything they build than why are they doing LIMITED production runs...??? Kinda seems an oxymoron...
Good talk.
To respond to the different issues to bring up. As I mentioned, 2.3" or 2.4" really was kind of the average. The rear tire I ran (sorry, I said front tire earlier) in the picture in my profile is a 26x2.4" Schalbe Racing Ralph. That really is an XC tire. Racing Ralph has always been XC. It wasn't Surly that made the Plus size. They made proper 3.7" wide fat tires and suitable rims for their Pugsley fatbike and their Connondrum mountain unicycle (the 26" model). But everything between the 2.4" I have and the 3.0" Nokian Gazzaloddi was there. 2.7" wide was more the DH size. Sure those were still on the older narrower rims. But Gazzaloddi was also typically mounted on the available relatively narrow rims, so you still had the full spectrum.
The rims I'm running there have a 29mm inner width. I haven't gone to the very limit of 2.6" to see how much of a gap there is but I see no reason to assume that it would be too tight. The gap is decent. As for mud, have you ever watched one of these forks up close? The arches are thin and without webbing. They don't catch much, unlike the front facing arches of RockShox and Fox. They're tall with webbing at the back. These will collect mud that will eventually fill the gap towards the tire. These Magura ones don't. Obviously Manitou and one of these from MRP (the one with the forward facing webbing) may be decent too. But no other (except for USD forks) has smooth and slender arches like these that hardly hold a muddy tire. Either way, I'm running 2.4" wide tires on a 29mm inner width rim now and there is more than enough room for a muddy tire. 2.5" (that's another 2.5mm) is definitely not going to be a problem on these rims. 2.6" (so 5mm wider than what I have now) may work, maybe it rubs a little when carving a corner. I can't tell you.
As for the rounded arches, funny enough the first models from 2007 (Odur, Menja, Laurin and Wotan) had quite angular arches. In 2008 they came with the Durin XC fork which had rounded arches, in 2009 they came with Thor. From then on they slowly eliminated the forks with the angular arches. Odur was the first to go because sadly people willing to pay for a coil sprung fork. Then Laurin and Wotan left because the Thor replaced those and then Menja was the last to go. They were busy enough with expensive castings for lowers now that the bigger wheelsizes came about, so it wasn't worth it to invest in the cheaper Menja.
Oh, I just looked up some older specifications. Indeed as I recalled the original specifications for the Thor fork were that it could take a 26x2.8" tire, just like Wotan. So for the later model I bought they probably compensated for the wider rims and set 26x2.6" as a maximum in the specifications.
26x2.8 on old narrow rims does not equate to modern 27.7x2.6 on wide rims
jk everyone knows it's actually marzocchi.
#itsacolourcolorthing
And just for fun...I generalize bike categories by overall weight more than travel. But again..Why So Serious Brah. Take bicycle. Ride it. ...XC Whippet down a full blown DH track? Yup....just gotta take'r easy
But now it's got a cool new name... and better geo!
Just wondering:
1: When going uphill, should I
a) push
b) pedal
c) shuttle
2: Also, can I be downcountry on a hardtail? Is a 120mm travel fork sufficient or should I get at least 140mm?
3: Should I be enduro-level color coordinated or should I be more understated?
4: Can I be downcountry with a dual ring setup on my fully? If I don't brag about it? Please?
2: HT yes. Travel doesn't matter.
3: Understated for sure...preferably not even bike specific cloths except shoes.
4: Whatever gets you up the hill. 2x is fine. OK to point and laugh at 1x and all it's f*ckery.
:P
b) as long as your intention is to shred afterwards
c) That is always super cool. Pick up truck is the best. Even for DC
2. Hardtails are above all trends. This is what makes them trendy
3. Depends on a bike. On HT or alu DC bike - understated. On a SC or Yeti, wear clothes no older than 1 year, preferably a less known brand like Maloja or Mons Royale.
4. No. The only acceptable drivetrain on a Downcountry bike is one involving a giant saucer in the rear.
Make sure everything involves a beer, either piss or really bitter IPA. In between is a sign of cowardship.
I assume everyone else at these events/trade shows are praying for any PB coverage they can get so they just look the other way.
Its a Vengeance HLR with better tire cleareance - as they both have the same damping unit (except the Roughcut)
How about more material in the Fox 36 to make it not creek at the crown. I love your forks, just don't like the creek.
Nice to see Mike finding Jesus. That was what he was talking about when mentioning his name a few times right??
p.s. nice bunny hops on that thing with wheels. So much air
This guy is so new to the sport he doesn't know there's a third wheel size.... Hahahahahahahahaha
What a kook
Must be that dude corndoggin it living in his van in the national forest, wearing the same kit for a week now
It's far better to have Stank and lost than to never be Stank at all.... To Stink or not to Stink, that is the question.... One small Stink for man and one giant Stank for all mankind...
This is actually the shop I buy DVO spares and my latest product the Topaz.
geoffw@dvosuspension.com
Last summer bought new bushings on their site. After 6 weeks, phone calls, and emails, still no bushings. I had to have my bank reverse the charges. Nice job, @DVOSuspension. Also, on one of the calls with "customer service" I asked what pressure I should be running; they asked if the shock was making a "swishing" sound and I said, "yeah, it's always done that." Oh, then it's defective and needs to be rebuilt by us. At least they did that part right. Perhaps it's now a little quieter, though the bushings are still blown and I have it set up with just as much pressure and it blows through the midstroke just riding around on the flat.
My buddy rides an Emerald on his race rig and regrets it; DVO hasn't been able to get him set up to his liking, either. I chatted on the lift at Highland with another industry guy who said "the damper is amazing, the overall build quality, not so much."
They lost a customer for life; I'll be buying from someone else.
However if you have already 30% sag then it is crap.
I love my Topaz, my enduro feels like a DH because of it. With the VPP rear it eats anything, was running a EXT Storia two days ago on the Nicolai G1, man I did feel anything.
Same track with my rig who is shorter and with smaller wheels. I thought I lost air on my rear tire after I did some laps with the EXT and get back on my bike. But the suspension was just superior.
I do like how it feels, just that seems like it should have A LOT more mid stroke support. And DVO continues to market themselves as a customer support company. Maybe I just interacted with an incompetent employee (he definitely didn't seem the brightest when I talked on the phone; more of a bro).
Glad you like yours; hope it holds up!
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