Video: A Glimpse into the Design Process Behind Forestal Bikes

 From what I've found about this company, they have hired several of the best engineers from across the spectrum, auto racing, bicycles, etc. "About 10" according to an ebike site. That's a lot of hands in the hat to get paid in this venture. Even a $3000 frame, marked up 70%, that's a lot of frames to cover 10 "of the best" salaries, split 10 ways. Not including warehouse help/storage space, customer service, reinvestment, building inventory, etc. It should be 1 persons dream, a 2nd person agrees, they build it, make a small profit, hire another person, more profit, hire another person, hire a rider, make a video because people want more. Not a video first.. I know I have seen this before from an unsuccessful bicycle maker, just can't remember which one.

 Superstar Components. First off bicycle frame is a fricking simple thing. It is. Deal with it. That is because bicycle is not a car, airplane, suspension fork or a building. A good evidence is that dimensions you need to pay attention to can be remembered. At my work they can’t, that is why I sit among several books.

Second: You are just jealous that you cannot afford a well dressed designer who draws wheels by hand...

Third: I love you because your products piss into the face of pretentiousness. Because they just work without coating a fortune

Fourth: I find the growth of pretentiousness in handmade bicycle industry amusing. The “made by an engineer” style will soon become cliché. And small companies better take note what is going on around them. Because A. Sick Bicycles and worse B. Any company can make a retro looking bike and will beat them at their own game. There are more and more cheap bikes coming out in raw finish and with slack and long geo. Look out boys and girls...

 @WAKIdesigns: But what they won't be able to do is to replicate that personal connection (perceived rather than real makes no difference) between the small frame builder and the rider. And that sense of connection is what adds the value; value that keeps us coming back for our next frame.

Not the pseudo bullshit value on Forestal's PB page; or the contrived superfluous rubbish here in the above video.

It is economics 101. "Given the cost savings open to companies through mass production and the division of labour, why do so many small companies continue to exist?"

It's because of the people...and some of the small builders have that in spades. and they know who they are, and are smart enough to protect that.

 @orientdave: Soul like everything else
is a commodity. It can be capitalized on. It can also be mocked... and I gladly do it, because although I often romanticize my shopping choices based on sentiments I can see how they blur reality. How they are nothing more but yet another form of transcendence, one of basic needs of all of us, that may have many faces. It makes us blind to simple things, I find it cowardly in many ways. It is hard to appreciate regular things. Like hub is a hub... if it is spinning, what is the trouble? Like both, the soul hub and mass made hub are made by people like us, who come to work to earn money to pay the bills, make ourselves comfortable, send out kids fo school, buy a safe home, safe car whatever need we may have whatever we may find worthwhile and meaningful.

I will give you an example. I work next to a small Toy shop. The Owner is a very kind and charismatic lady Margaretha. She can barely walk but she will always go from behind the counter and tell a story about the most typical toy one can imagine. How hard can it be to respect her? Now... I worked for the owner of Scandinavias biggest online child/kid store. I drew giant warehouses filled with more robots than people. But there are still people working there. Young people. Each of them is a story. They work, they eat lunches together, smile, laugh. Not every person buying their product buys something out of genuine need. But many do. They all buy things with intention to make the life of their kids better.

So now, two children get two toys, one from Margaretha, one from the Devil
Oleg... tell me which child will be happier? Because I assure you it is all in your head. What not to like in Chris King, what not to hate in Neil from Superstar. What gives you the judge... cheap products or cheap semtiments

 your mate Dan at stanton did it is he sad

 @WAKIdesigns:

Exactly that, yes, they’ll both be equally happy, yet both the Toy Warehouse owners and Margeretha will keep attracting customers; the warehouse on price and Margeretha on ‘soul’ (I see what you did there).

Any small business owner who puts heart and soul into it will always find customers willing to pay the extra.

I have.

We run a very small boutique business here in Japan Waki and my understanding of the market and how it relates to us, our customers (and our relationship to them) is far, far more important than what our larger competitors are up to. We are selling an experience rather than a product and we know it.

As a business owner you have to choose. Price or People? Make your choice and don’t disappoint.

Sick is a perfect example of what happens when you choose ‘soul’ over price and then disappoint the people.

So yes, the cheap, long and slack mass produced frames are on their way.... but any small frame builder that understands their relationship with their customers will differentiate its ‘soul’ and sell it, only ironically, without actually having to ‘sell their soul’...

You see what I did there?
Enjoy the weekend Sir..

@Compositepro
Is there any chance of some punctuation in that sentence to give me a chance of unpacking what you mean?

 @orientdave: I agree, Cotic Soul is a good frame. Enjoy the weekend

 Why not have both?! Old el Paso Bicicletas(TM).

 Were called 'Design Engineers' for a reason. But in answer to your question I would actually want my bike 'built' by a well trained bike mechanic.

 By an engineer, absolutely! The way I see beauty in a bike comes primarily from what works. What offers frame rigidity, good suspension and pedalling characteristics, and minimal weight. If it's good by those parameters, I will love it no matter what. Not to say that I can't appreciate a "beautiful" bike, but my primary appreciation of it comes from function. It's a tool!

 “Do you want a bike built by a designer or by an engineer”

Congratulations for telling everyone how you have no freaking clue about product development, design, production, sales, lifespan and recycling/disposal.

But to answer your question, I build my bikes at the attic. I guess you wanted to ask: would you like your bike to be designed by a designer or by an engineer OR do you want your bike to be engineered by a designer or an engineer OR whatever suits your uneducated view of how the world works

 @WAKIdesigns: I did not think of that way of interpreting the question. Of course that in this context, every engineer designs and every designer engineers. The way I saw it, the question is about what is the primary focus. Titles are irrelevant, the question is what primary approach is being taken.

 @WAKIdesigns: Please don't insult me.

 @phutphutend:

Unfortunately, insulting people he has never met is what Waki is all about.

 @WAKIdesigns: did that offend you or are you just in full on a*shole mode today?

 @phutphutend: as if it was hard to read your intention through your question. One look into your photo album and your angle is clear. Some of the best mountain bikes out there are designed and engineered without degree in engineering because in modern day and age (and the fact how simple piece of engineering a bicycle frame is compared to let’s say a shock mounted to it) you don’t need a degree and 10 years experience in fricking aerospace or medical equipment to design a bike that can win XC or DH world cup or EWS and defo not for fun. For instance Chris King would be fricking nowhere near to where they are if they wouldn’t make their stuff into eye candy and wouldn’t be good at selling it. But one can go quite far on a Superstar hub.

 @WAKIdesigns: amen

 Do you want your house built by a architect or an engineer?

 @brajal: carpenter?

 @WAKIdesigns: ignore asshat he's been a bike designer all of 5 minutes and like most of them it's not exactly hard is it.

 @WAKIdesigns: WAKI this is a lost fight, like everyone saying Marketing when they are actually talking about Communication. Live with it you won't be able to win that one mate.

 @Balgaroth: I just sat on a meeting. me architect, ventilation engineer, piping dude, project manager, construction manager, structural engineer, electric engineer, electrician, sprinkler engineer/designer and CAD/BIM manager. All we did was we were throwing shit at each other how certain professions are worthless and who is most qualified and best suites to have a leading role in the project.

Or maybe we didn’t...

 @WAKIdesigns: Not sure what you mean, but even I work people constantly talk about Marketing when they are talking about Com, I can imagine people calling Designer Engineers and the opposite. As long as you know what you are doing that already something.

 @Balgaroth: what I mean is that title and profession is overblown concept and it is ridiuclous to say that one member of the process is more valuable than another. Then people have little grasp on reality when it comes to specialist vs multidisciplinary approach. Specialist is always valued more than someone with broad scope. Like a manager. Funny enough by this logic craftsmen like carpenters should look down on engineers...

In comments from people from UK and US I observe a tendency to glorify the work of an engineer as if it was a form of a modern druid or a mythical creature. Sounds as ridiculous as Engineers from Prometheus. I also observe a tendency to put down the role of a designer/ marketer as if they were pot smokers who were given too much power by God only knows who... exactly who? Those greedy capitalists!!! I am raised and educated in Poland, live in Sweden. At least here, engineers are not super people much smarter than average population. I know a few and some of them are really dumb... I am an engineer myself, unfortunately by keep it real standards I am not worthy of my degree. As an architect, in my daily work I am much more of a project manageer, engineer than I am a designer. I also must keep costs at bay. Both mine and of my clients. Yet folks expect me to dress in black and wear fancy glasses, sitting for days in the middle of a giant empty room. Thinking with pencil and a piece of paper...

 Why sir please take my money! I'll have one dozen in unicorn sparkle finish, double super boost spacing, and nitroshox shocks.

 Finally releasing the Pretentious HT7 ?!?

 You've must have been living under a rock lately because in todays world feelings are more important than facts. Just look at the U.S where cauliflower is now rascist according to an Annoyingly Opinionated C*nt, errr, I mean, Congressswomen.

 So because they "design" things, we are disallowed from commenting on their choice of marketing material?

 yeah, i wonder if they bought the "rights'

glad someone noticed

 Big watch, tiny......eyes?