Is Red Bull Rampage worth it for the riders? In 2001 the prize purse for the whole event was $8000 and has since risen to $200,000. But is "worth it" about more than money?
I think people need to get past the contest aspect of it. The event seems to have evolved more into a showcase than a contest. Guy seem more happy just to push themselves and land their run than they are with the standings. It should probably be looked at more like any other way of these riders showcasing their talents, like movie parts, or social media, etc. Its more about the outlet and the exposure it provides them as they make a career. Yes its dangerous, but that's part of the deal if you want to make a living as a freeride mountain biker.
that is the problem when a sport or an event becomes more mainstream, then people start to talk about many and consider this relationship between money, prizes and risk. But many people, pros, understand freeride in a very different way. let just keep it cool, let's make better score rules, let's keep it the way freeride should be.
@BartDM: saying that money doesn’t matter as if it was an actual zero issue is like getting into a relationship and saying you don’t care about sex. Yeah, nobody does it for the money but nobody would do it for free. And it’s not about the prize money, it’s about the future contracts and being able to ride the bike for living. If you don’t ride for living, you don’t compete in those events. Romanticizing it is as needed as staying pragmatic. All young couples like to talk about romance... when life hits you, you better be covered. And it will hit you. And dealing with it better be as ecstatic as flying above canyons or you’re in for a rough time.
I agree. It should have awards for multiple categories. The obsession for a high score seems to really ruin it for some riders and a lot of the fans. I like it all and don't really care about who gets first.
@BartDM: making it from the top to bottom at Rampage means you’ve made it in life. It gives you credibility across many disciplines of life, wherever you go. It’s like An Olympic medal. And nobody can take it from you. I would love to have something close to this. I don’t see though how money makes it different
@Luis-Sc: Yes "exposure" certainly does put food on the plate or pay the rent. How do you think these professionals make a living? They are paid by sponsors and the more "exposure" they get, whether it be contests like Rampage, social media, web coverage, or movies, the more money they will make. Exposure is literally what makes these guys money. Its the exact reason a sponsor would want a rider using their products.
I think the real question isn't about Risk Vs. Reward....The harder question is for those out there who have the drive to prove something they aren't capable of proving due to financial reasons or hardships...
Don't forget, this event was made by a Collective of OG shredders and it has become an organized, safe and contest driven event. I still think the Lore of Rampage is the Reward - and being crowned Champion on a badass piece of mountain is a sight to behold.
Not many of us get up top of a mountains edge and peer off thinking...I got this.
The Peoples Champion Vs.The Crowned King? Who feels like the Winner?
It's cool to watch these guys set themselves up and launch it off the booters - that's why we watch and are amazed at their talent.
You're all winners to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee…..post that medal on the fridge so your daddy can see when he gets home!!!
@WAKIdesigns: what a load of poppycock ! 99.9% of people haven’t even heard of rampage . You haven’t made it in life cos you can ride a bike down a hill ! But I no your just being daft !
The issue is we all want to think and know they make more money. Real money. We want our beloved sport to be legitimized in such a way that top athlestes, indeed the entire field, can’t escape making real money.
Fact is, it’s not there yet and it’s frustrating. Infuriating given the risks taken.
It's great for kids to get a chubby on to. Same with those FMJ and Dankfest events. Once you get elderly like me you'd much rather watch videos of people taking apart a transmission from a car you'll never own.
What makes the Olympic Games or the World Cup extra special? They only happen once every four years.
Rampage would do better to follow this format. Instead of two days to dig with a two man crew or whatever it is, just make it into a marquee event. Two months to get ready, huge sponsors, guaranteed appearance money of $50,000 each for all riders. That would be better for everyone.
Having it every year devalues the event, in my opinion.
@sino428: I am interested to hear more about the exposure thing. Do riders actually get paid more for getting more "Likes" on Twitter? Really though? I know people say that's important, but is there a direct link between wages and "likes"? For example $1000 for a million "Likes", and $1 extra for every "Like" on top of that?
@jaame: I’m sure every riders contracts are different but yes the number of followers, likes, etc does matter. It may not be a direct link, like every hundred followers = $xxx, but a rider with a huge social media following is going to be more marketable than one doesn’t. For some riders it matters more than others. For a racer who’s getting exposure during race coverage on the broadcasts and pages like Pinkbike social media may not play as big a role. But for riders who’s main outlet is social media, it’s going to play a much bigger role in how they are paid.
@Matt115lamb: you obviously read what you wanted from it, never said Rampage is the highest thing of all things for all people out there. But you are going to have a hard time finding people who would not be impressed seeing a complete run. Yes you have made it in life when you get on the pinnacle of any discipline of sport or art or science. Even in chess. Intimidated much?
Yeah, I agree. I admit.. I like watching Rampage, but when are we going to minimize the chance of riders being killed? I love the way Josh aka Rat Boy and the 50to01 crowd is going. You can still impress people doing crazy stuff 3' off the ground instead of hucking yourself upside down off a 40' cliff. Just my two cents.
@gorgefreerider: This...! Same with a guy like Jeff Kendall weed... I aspire to be able to do more of that kind of stuff instead.. He makes It look fun.. Not brutally scary or high consequence..
@gorgefreerider: only mountain bikers, and really only the "core" people know about 50to01. Everyone knows about Rampage. If I tell someone I mountain bike there is a good chance they will say "oh I saw that crazy Red Bull thing in Utah. Have you seen that?"
Unpopular opinion: Rampage sucks and its personally my least favorite event of the year. The risk is nowhere even close to the reward for the majority of those competing. Whilst I understand it is Free-ride and it is also a huge opportunity for our sport to gain exposure via big broadcasting it paints an unrealistic general picture of what our sport actually is. I don't wish it would go away, I just wish it wasn't the trademark event for our sport. Also plz bring back Dual Slalom
I haven't watched Rampage since Paul Bas had that awful crash in 2015. With what came out in the aftermath it became apparent that the competitors were all being taken for a ride.
@Fix-the-Spade: That was a low point for sure and similarly where my interest petered out. Props to team YT for having his back though, which lead to me being able to donate and get a cool bike as a side effect. #irideforpaul #mcgazzaforever
You're right. Itsucks. Dont wanna see people taking Potentially catastrophic risks for some soda related exposure. Its belly cringing enough to read about fatal accidents on pb and how People face drastic downturn of life trying to cope with it.
So many other cool exposures of mtb nowadays.
My two cents is that Rampage grew out of its baby clothes and it’s not a very cute adult. It got bigger but not better. Now mix up some Hardline racing with a few Rampage like option lines for points and I think it would be better for all.
Rampage is dope and ultimately it is your own decision to fly off that cliff, let the slayers slay and if you can’t hang take it easy like remi did.
It’s no different than nfl football where you risk long lasting brain damage by playing. Not all will be affected but some will. These guys have all weighed the risks and some would do this shit even without the exposure. Some wouldn’t.
P.S. - I do think the event would be safer and more fun to watch if it was less trick oriented and focused more on creatively navigating the terrain.
I just find it pretty boring to be honest. Same as free-style motocross. Sure the skill is impressive, but once I've seen one dude do a backflip I don't really need to see it again.
@markinator: Rampage is so over hyped, limited time to build what they want, limited dollars, and then it’s windy.
Same with fest, first season of it was rowdy. But now it’s just so repetitive of guys doing straight airs over huge gaps. Talent is required but boring to watch a million times
@The-mnt-life365 I agree with you 100% especially the dual slalom racing. That should be beought back for sure! Not only fun to race it is fun to watch!
Enough riders must think it's worth the risk or it wouldn't happen. Chloe Kim & Yater Wallace aren't realistic reps of their sports either, but no one wants to watch people like me flail around a superpipe or drop a rock. Rampage is the rep of the sport precisely bc it's so unrealistic.
@Matt115lamb: Agreed, the tech stuff is much more appealing to me that the flips and twists on huge smooth ski jumps.
If Rampage is the trademark of our sport, World Cup DH is right behind it and the risks and marketing are similar. Here's a boring video for the Rampage haters: youtu.be/LMA8bp3d1VI
@Flowcheckers: That Niche is $799 aluminum treks. That market isnt going anywhere. Thats whats referred to as a loss leader bike. Shop makes $80 or so, Trek makes $30 or so. The industry is NOT missing out. That video is one of those "Get off my lawn, damn kids" videos
@owlie: It's just a different perspective. I hated that video first time I watched it but liked it the next time. What's more enjoyable, watching stunts on television or having a mellow ride with the family? To each their own.
@sumarongi: Tech climbing is my new years reso dude.. You see guys like Nate Hills with his follow cam Friday really showcasing it now... That's the shit I like.. Add in a gnarly descent like he does and it's the full meal deal.
You're asking the wrong question. You're asking a bunch of dudes who started hucking off stuff before it was something real. When the early guys started doing this people still looked at you funny when you showed up at the local DJ's on an MTB. And if you tried to explain jumping off 50 foot cliffs no one believed you. So for the guys doing it... yes it's worth it. They're making careers. They're getting paid to do what they love, some better than others. But beyond that they're getting that feeling of doing something very few people can do or have done. And they're still able to walk.
If you notice... the guys questioning the worth or at least quantifying it... are all guys that have been hurt. Ask Paul this same question and see what he says.
To me the question should not be... Is it worth it. The question should be... can we get you more and should we.
Answer to that is yes. It is honestly down right ridiculous that Red Bull has even had to be challenged to raise it to the point they have raised it. Until recently they did not get show up money and the pay outs were next to nothing.
This is Red Bull's most watched event, period. They have very very little expense in producing it in comparison to many other similar events. The riders are doing their own work. The network is in place and so is the established viewership. Now people like Fox or ESPN or whatever are starting to reshow the event. That means they're paying Red Bull for the content.
This needs to be a big pay out event. I think you have to be careful not to go to far with it because you don't want people making stupid choices for the opportunity of earning a million dollars. But paying out the winner say $250k would be warranted. Raising show up amounts, look at what Godziek said in his videos... the foreign guys lose money to show up. Raise the show up money to $10k and at least triple the pay out to winners, etc. That is still a very very small chunk when compared to what Red Bull is pulling in.
To me it's very similar to the comparison of Boxing and the UFC. Same pay per view numbers, the boxer is making $3m-10m. The UFC guy is making $100k-500k. So who's pocketing the rest. The UFC. They could double their pay outs and still be underpaying people. I think that Rampage is in a similar boat. They can double and triple it and still be underpaying guys but at least they'd be respecting them.
Riders will continue to do it anyways... but that doesn't mean that as an industry we and as a fanbase that we should not be pushing Red Bull to pony up. Especially with their expansion in the camping area, fan zone, etc. They want companies like Ohlins (this years suspension sponsor) to pony up $25k to do that. Run that out to the other sponsors at lower dollar amounts and you're talking about $250k worth of income just from companies wanting logo placement and/or display space. Campers paying, attendees paying, selling swag at a 3-500% profit margin. Etc. They're making stupid money off this.
A direct comparison is the Mavericks surf competition. Back in 2009 they doubled the payout and became the highest paying event in surfing. Here's what Beading the CEO said...
“There really is no amount of money on Earth that could compensate the guys for the risks they take out there at Maverick’s,” Keir Beadling, CEO of Mavericks Surf Ventures, wrote in an e-mail, “and I honestly believe they’d surf in the contest with no prize purse. Many of them have said as much."
That is exactly what we're talking about here. Will they do it. Yup. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid a reasonable amount to do it.
So.... in short.... you're asking the wrong question so that you can get the answer you want. You get riders to say... yes it's worth it and you get amo to use when you don't pay what you should/could. All this video did was ask a predictable question to get predictable answers to get people to forget about the issue.
So start asking the right questions and start getting the right answers.
Dude. Virtually everything you said is simply not true. Are you just guessing or is this one big piece of performance art?
I'd bet my bike that Red Bull shows up and loses money on this event every year. The costs must be huge.
You bring up UFC. UFC makes a profit by selling out arenas and charging $99 for PPV. Where do you think Red Bull's mystery profit on Rampage comes from? The PinkBike crowd watching the well-produced stream for free? The $20 tickets sold to the 400 people who drive in? I bet the ticket sales pay for 2 hours of the MedEvac heli that's on site for four days.
You are right to bring up Mavericks. The promoter you quote is no longer in business and gave up the event the year after they gave that quote. That event has also been tossed around from promoter to promoter over the last five years (the last two went bankrupt). Also that event has only ran 4 times in the last 10 years.
Look, doing stuff like this is hard and expensive and requires companies that do it because the people who work there love this stuff. Just because you say that there should be more money doesn't mean reality and economics will cooperate.
Every Rampage thread has a bunch of people saying that Red Bull needs to do more but the reality is Red Bull is the only company stepping up and writing the check every year.
@LA-Law: lol well say good-bye to your bike. You do know they've had a TV deal with NBC for the past few years, right? That's bringing in a bulk of the money. They also have a ton of sponsors to help with the costs of the event and all of their youtube videos that rack up a lot of views bring in money as well- which is why athletes are not allowed to post their own POV footage. They're not losing money.
@scott-townes: Let's do the math instead of just assuming that there's evil afoot.
Say the event costs $2million. What do you think NBC pays to air it every year? $3million?
In order to do that, they'd want to sell $4million in ads. Given that each hour of TV has about 14 minutes of ads, that means each 30 second spot would cost $150,000.
That's the price of a spot for an early season NFL game. Those games get roughly 10 times the viewership of what Rampage does so the above seems highly unlikely.
On YouTube, the average video gets paid $7 per 1000 views. Let's assume 8,000,000 views for Rampage videos. That's $56,000.
And when what the entire post really boiled down to is that people are asking the wrong question. And that point still stands regardless of the number crunching arguments. The entire video seemed to be Red Bull addressing the constant statement that riders aren't getting paid enough by asking the riders the wrong questions in order to get the responses they need to defend that they are because the riders would do it either way. Which is the wrong way to think about it.
The UFC/Boxing comparison was really just to illustrate that just because money is coming in doesn't mean money is being fairly distributed.... or even respectfully distributed. Example...
And side note on Mavericks. Pretty sure there was a bunch of drama and Red Bull was suing cartel for breach of contract. They started up Titans of Mavericks, etc. They filed 11 to avoid the lawsuit and the $3m or something they owed. World Surf League bought it. And if I'm not mistaken they actually decreased the payouts from 2009 to something like $130k for 2017. They are also missing the boat in my opinion. They paid over a half million dollars just for the permits to be able to run the comp. Seems like they can afford to pay the surfers more than $4-5k each on average. And if I'm not mistaken, the O.G.'s don't really care for what's happening right now. There's a ton of corporate interest, rules, etc. But the payouts aren't there to go along with that.
Mavericks purse still isn’t that big, sure it went up big time but still not huge. Those big wave contest prizes are on par as far as I know as Rampage. Guys who do the Rampage, Big wave contests, Big Mountain sling/snowboarding contests all do it for the money, not the contest money but they all have sponsors who pay them because they do these events.
@LA-Law: lets not forget, redbull makes money selling redbulls, and they sell a lot. They are building their image on racing sports to sell. Thats where their incomes are. Everything else is advertising for the brand.
@okidou: Companies/corporations like Red Bull have compartmentalized departments so saying their beverage dept. does well is not really a solid point. While they're under the same flag, its like saying an event that's sponsored by Armada is only affordable because Atomic is doing well in sales. Friggen corporations, man.
So here's an honest ? How much does Red Bull pull in from Rampage? Because I could be wrong, but there are not a lot of pp down there compared to say a 30 thousand seat MMA venue and the tickets are still less than a Jazz game lower bowl seat. Nobody's going to like this but I say jack the tickets a $100 and put it towards the riders. If you want them paid like other pro athletes, pony up as a fan.
@matttauszik: Hard to say. Millions of views translates to a lot if advertising dollars. Couple hundred k in sponsor money and a few thousand in swag sales. $500 per experience. $300 for camping. Day tickets $65. Media passes. Etc. Call it $30k. They get paid for the tv replays. Etc. All speculations... who the F knows. Lol. A lot. They spend alot too. Helicopters. Drone pilots. Staffing. Food. Permits. Mr x games announcing. That 3d stuff they did. Etc. Big expensive event. But its making enough the Red Bull is putting attention to it now. Im sure they could easily double appearance pay out and prize money. Triple for the winner. This year RB stepped into the evebt a lot more than years passed. Its their most watched event.
Valid... I'll agree with you on the base fee to show up, it's expensive to go compete.. But on the other hand waving a golden carrot in front of 25 charged up young riders is asking for trouble. Think about the risk for the reward that would happen, say if $500K was on the line; dudes would be trying to double backflip off the biggest shit out there just to win a giant check; thus risking everything for the reward.
@parisgore: That's where the balance has to come in. I think they should up the appearance check to every rider. That would be a less dangerous way for these guys to get paid out. Triple that. Tack on a couple extra thousand for any not North America based riders. Then double pay out to the winners. It would make it more respectable but not obnoxiously hight. Maybe just triple it across the board. $150k is a lot but not so much you're gonna put money before life.
For the total package, for sure but in strict reference to prize money.... they deserve a lot more. Like a lot of riders out there, I feel the intrinsic value far outweighs the money.
honestly curious as to why people downvoted my comment. I think the upper echelon people already are making bank on their sponsorships. It is the people on the lower end that deserve more. Plus with as finicky as the judging is the payment gap between last and first should be smaller becuase often times the most impressive runs aren't even first place.
@honda50r: Hockey players are literally playing hockey for a living.. Basketball players are literally playing basketball for a living... Baseball players... Football players... None of them have these types of risks, all of them are mearly playing a sport..
@iantmcg: Yeah I guess its pretty good, and completely agree. They're improving every year but still they're pretty far behind in terms of what needs to happen. The last place guys are still risking a lot.
While I agree with you, what the biggest delta between those folks and these riders is that those professional sports are bringing their organizations millions and billions of dollars. @gnarnaimo:
Define ‘a living’. Only a small number of dudes out there are making enough money to live a comfortable life. A lot are just scraping by on loose change in the hope it’ll lead to more money down the line. That’s what makes Rampage worth it to anyone who makes it in @honda50r:
To put it into perspective; the winner of the Superbike TT on the Isle of Man gets `£20.000 For that he has to race a distance of 226 miles while averaging 135mph on narrow public roads. (That's 364km at 227km/h for the rest of the world)
Honestly it's impressive that it is still running, an event with at least one death per year and the nimbys and SJW haven't managed to shut it down. There's hope for the race after all.
Except that your simplifying It too much and it's completely different. All racing loses money. And beyond that, many of the guys in RST for example... they get paid by the OEM's and sponsors to show up and ride, and on a different scale of what your average free rider is on. They're already getting paid more than the Rampage guys without having ridden. The prize money is just a bonus. And if I'm not mistaken, there were over 70 entrants in RST Superbike alone. Add in Monster, Superstock, that's another 150 probably. Plus all the other classes, you're talking about hundreds and hundreds of racers. Not 20 dudes.
And yeah... those guys are freaking nuts. Michael Dunlop won it again... and that dudes dad and brother were both killed in accidents.
@onemanarmy: Agreed it's a much larger field, but that doesn't take away from just how dangerous the event is. What you're saying about money may be true for the top guys, but most of the racers are privateers who work most of the year in order to fund their racing. Those privateers also know they won't get a sniff of any prize money, they're there for the love of it.
It's a catch-22. The potential cost of the life-changing injuries that a rider could suffer in this event can hardly be put into financial terms, and definitely are not reflected in the prize money (especially for those that don't win). So, would increasing the money make it "worth" such risks, or would it just provide an undue incentive for people to participate? Perhaps it is best that the money isn't huge, so that only the fully committed participate. Of course, that means the corporate sponsors get to profit off the event and market around it without sharing the profits with the athletes make the event actually happen. For every athlete that succeeds in the sport, there are dozens more that try and come up short (or botch the landing). Their financial and personal futures can be forever changed in the blink of an eye or a turn of the bars. For context, Red Bull is a $10.4 billion valued business. Interesting conversation.
And, that is why up and commers cant get paid more then a poor college student to be on T.V. and cant make "Moto" money. Because the sport is stuck in the hippie " Dude Bro" style of things. The pros need to be getting paid to be.... well Pros. Palmer back in the day and Gwin now a days are the ones raising the bar in the pay to play and make millions off my name deal. Somehow people think it is a bad thing. The minimum to play in the NFL is around the 500k mark and 90% of people dont know their names either and not on a Toyota commercial like Nate Hills. But people keep doing it for "the love". All those guys in the NFL love football too, but they just made a business out of it and not a "let just have fun now so I can try to sell coaching and live in a 25 year old RV when I am 50" kind of thing. Lets get these guys PAID! Sometimes I hate that I make more money a year then most these guys throwing it all on the line so I can watch a video when I get off. There is not 401k in this sport, you are "old" at 35 like Minnaar. I want to see these guys/ gals get paid. If I am paying Motorcycle money for something I have to pedal then the factory sponsored guys/gals should be making motorcycle money as well. It is every bit as competitive. Hell guys on the Web.com tour make way more money playing golf and that is not even the big league. Lets stop this for the love crap and get the pro men and females paid for making us want to buy a 3mm difference in hub spacing because the pro use it and will make 1% increase in stiffness. The industry markets million on what is cool and they use these underpaid pros to make it cool,and we buy it up!
I still think they should separate each of the pros runs with an amateur rider. It will do two things. Shows the crowds how difficult and gnarly the terrain actually is. And second, the blood bath coming down the mountain from the amateur riders will moisten up the ground reducing all the dust and making each of the landings perfect for the pro riders.
Every year two or three people die at the Isle of Man.
Life is not to be lived in a cotton box.
Hopefully an air bag spine protector can be created.
This event is just getting bigger. It totally curls my toes just watching it. I wish I could do it ,it would be living big.
We have to expect the obvious possibility that somebody could die at Rampage and every competitor knows it's a possibility on those cliffs. If it happens it will be a tragedy but the event should continue if riders still have the desire, as with isle of man.
For my 2 cents worth many riders would compete for free.
Bottom line this is a hobby that has become a business but people ride, and they generally want to ride bigger and better.
If you can bring rampage back to people doing what they love all the better.
There are more important things in life than money I suppose. Maybe they're satisfied with the money they get paid along with the pride and glory they get just from completing a Rampage.
Win or lose, good Judges or not. Rampage is the most amazing event on earth to me. It is the gnarliest, most beautiful event I know of. These riders, all of them are truly inspiring me to ride and keep the stoke on at 45, and until I can't do it anymore. Send err boys! I love ya
Isle of Man TT prize money for winner is £20,000 and there are multiple deaths every year. £20,000 doesn't even cover the costs of the machine, Tyres, fuel and getting to and from the race..... True sportsmen right there.
For everyone else, it seems to be all about the money.....
I think the basic question here is: Are the riders getting paid to compete, or are they competing to get paid? There is a fundamental difference between the two statements. I would say that most pro Downhill or XC riders are not earning the majority of their income from winning events, but rather from team sponsors. To compare, a 1st place in WC DH earns you 3,750 EURO, even the WC overall winner is only getting 10,000 EURO for their efforts. Hard to say how much a Pro Freerider is earning from sponsorship vs contest money, but you can't put all the blame on rampage, i'm sure sponsors are pushing their riders to show up and compete for the exposure as well!
The whole "look at what we have to do for only $XX amount of money" argument really doesn't fly with me.
Often we would hear this from Pro-MXers, all along every amateur goes to the tracks and take the same relative risks with arguable much more potential for injury.
The fact is, extreme dudes choose to do extreme things, regardless of the payday.
I'll throw in my 2c on this as well. I definitely do not ride at the level as these guys, no way. But I consider myself starting as a freerider, that's what got me into the DH scene to begin with.
Also I cannot speak for everyone, just for myself. Here's 2 things I feel like I share with the riders. 1) The love for the sport 2) I have had my fair share of serious injuries that have required surgeries, physical therapy, and down time off the bike.
The things I've gone through likely would deter most people from coming back to this style of riding. I'm not saying never riding again, just the high risk stuff. Although every time I was hurt, I always cursed the fact that I was not going to be able to ride for a significant amount of time. This frustrated me. But...it was never "I'm not doing this again". I understand the risks in the sport yet I try to better myself each season knowing those risks.
I don't get paid to do any of this, I do it because this is what I want to do. Granted with the pro's, there's money involved, but I would think at their roots these are all people that love riding and worked their ass off to get where they are at. Personal goals and love for biking will go a looong way to motivate someone to do something related to this sport. Money is the extra incentive, especially since it's how most of the top guys are making a living.
So is it worth the prize money? I would say yes...because every single rider goes in knowing they "could" win, not that they "will" win. The money isn't guaranteed. But it's also an opportunity to better yourself. Before anyone podiums, you just have to look at their reactions. Most riders when they get to the bottom are so stoked that they made it down, conquered their line, did something they never thought they would do, etc. Should they pay them more? Sure! But I don't believe money isn't the only incentive fueling the riders' fire.
I've followed Rampage damn near since the beginning and will continue. It's an event that really was a game changer. I believe it's the gateway to things that have spawned like Hardline and the Fest Series. With Fest though, it's not about the money at all. the risks are still super high as these guys are going HUGE. It's about throwing down with your boys and having a helluva time doing it. The reason we all got on 2 wheels in the first place
Let me start off by saying, i respect the riders, and what they are doing for the sport, their careers, and our entertainment. BUT, if you are a pro rider, and not getting paid enough for the risk you're taking for the event SIMPLY OPT OUT! If you want more money, STRIKE! I think posting a video for the public to jump on board and help you get compensated better, isn't the way to go about this. I've heard the same complaints steady, yet the riders continue to show up. STOP COMPETING, IF YOU"RE UNHAPPY WITH THE COMPETITION. Simple. No riders, no rampage, no profit for RedBull, then suddenly you may get what you want... stop feeding the RACOONS!
Many many comments here. All I have to say is that what we’re seeing at this stage of our sport is it’s “golden era”. MTB right now hearkens back to the era of baseball that saw the likes of Berra, Mantle, Williams etc. Yogi Berra has to have a day job in the winter for most of his career. There was an awful lot of “love of the game” aspect going on in baseball back then much as it is with our sport today. It’s not that baseball didn’t make big money back then. It did. It just wasn’t being given to the players proportionate to their value. One day fans of MTB will hold the names of Zink, Berrecloth, Semenuk etc. with the same reverence as other sports legends. Every year the progression is driven further by riders who are at the top of their abilities. The sport is pushed by these athletes with passion and heart, muscle and bone. These are undeniably some of the best athletes in the world regardless of the chosen sport. The risk factor however is among some of the greatest if not the greatest of any competitive sport. The days of any athlete of the caliber that we see at Rampage having to need an off season day job should be history. Many other greats in other sports have already paid those dues. Pay these athletes and pay them well. Not doing so is completely unethical at the least. No one attends a sporting event hoping to catch a glimpse of the team’s owner. No one goes to Rampage hoping to meet the CEO of Redbull.
Its about the carnal instinct to be RAD!!! Its not a contest its a lifestyle. If you add too much money to the purse people will then force their decision. It seems like a good balance of reward, ego and personal preference right now. I am not saying its not dangerous. I think RedBull should take more responsibility. But for this risk, the rider has to have skin in the game to enforce the hard decision making process. My two cents.
I could do without the pretense of scoring the runs. Pay every rider a flat fee to show up and put on a show and make it worthwhile. If you must have a "winner", let the riders vote on the best run, and maybe an audience favorite vote also for some bonus money. The scores mean nothing currently.
I watch rampage as more of a free ride edit than I view it as a contest. Judging MTBing tricks like a surf contest is really frustrating when you think the judges blew it, and it pushes guys to do stuff that personally I think is stupid, that know one does in my world.
Red Bull should switch it up this year and make it a race just like Hardline. I’m just not impressed by the tricks as much as I am seeing smooth fast riding that is timed, and is a lot safer in my mind than what these guys are doing. Sad to say though I will watch it every year until someone dies, then know one will watch because it will be canceled Red Bull are you listening, I got more where this came from.
I always look forward to this and really appreciate RedBull for everything it does. We just need to let this event succeed or die all on it's own. It's raw. Two days to dig means it stays that way. There's HUGE risk for these riders, but if you're doing it for a paycheck then I think you're doing it for the wrong reasons. If the payouts are still attracting the riders RedBull wants to invite, then there's no need to change. Not something we can really control as mere viewers. Sure, we can stop watching, but then that kills the event completely regardless of the will of the riders to turn out and compete.
I don't really think it's about the money for the top riders. More for notoriety than anything. The money is just a plus. Or just enough to cover the crew, expenses, and logistics.
These guys are riding this shit and sending it regardless...so I'd say the prize money is just an added bonus to stomping a kick ass run. I mean obviously the competitors want to stand on the top step, and the $$ is rad and all, but I'd venture to say they're not primarily out there for the coin! Don't get me wrong, I love watching Rampage but the media circus is getting ridiculous. Just give me Cam, and his mic and a dozen cameras to cover all angles of all runs and kick the rest to the curb.
I get that it is the riders' choice to compete and they do it for the love of the sport, but that doesn't change the fact that they are getting taken advantage of. It is on NBC and it is one of the most popular televised events on Red Bull TV. It's a similar situation to how Tour de France riders get shafted when it comes to the television rights and revenues. Rider's should form a union. Also, the builders get next to nothing for their hard work.
Rampage is the most coveted mtb event every single god damned year for a reason. Its EPIC! Everybody pretty much said, they ride the event for personal gratification and to push the sport. Not to make a shit load of $$. But, yes, there should be better financial incentives for competing and better management of the whole process to give people enough time to make smart decisions and stay "safe". More digs days, more practices days! People love Rampage.
Its not always about the money. I went rode the new rampage site about a week ago and got paid 0 money. Its not always about the money or the sponsors. I felt as if this was the best way to push myself and my riding and i feel like a lot of the athletes may feel the same.
I'll bite. Is it worth it? Yes. Look at how much traction it has for us in the industry, people who know bikes think it's the raddest show on dirt and people who can't even ride a bike think it's nuts! They'll watch YouTube videos of crashes and big backflips and brings this riding into the spotlight. I however, lost interest in Rampage a couple years ago. The coverage is too drawn out, I can't really listen to Sal and Cam talk for more than 14 seconds or so, yada yada. Take the "contest" aspect out of it and just have a 2 hour jam session with a "King of the Mountain" voting reveal at the end between the riders and bam! Interest renewed. Minimum 2 full pulls to score, crash 14 times, whatever, as long as you get two scores you're in the running.
It would be rad to see these guys get what they deserve. lets take just a little bit from all the USA jock/ball sports out there and give it to rampage athletes!!!! These guys are the raddest dudes! They should all make 6 figuires, for sending it!!!! Glad they are so down to keep me entertained! Can not wait to see what is to come new venues, new tricks the future is gonna be great!
I like to read through Paul Bas's instagram* now and then. "Worst nightmare" is very descriptive. I don't need anyone taking these kind of risks to entertain me, and I don't want to fund it.
truth. when i watch it, i feel like i'm waiting to just watch someone get paralyzed or die. sure the riding is cool, but the risk/reward ratio is off and seems exploitative to me.
I don't know if it's an effect of the edit or not, but notice how different Bearclaw and Schleyer's attitudes are?
It's almost a generational thing. (Admittedly Zink and Strait have been there for ages themselves). I wonder if a lot of the guys who come from more contemporary flippy-whippy slopestyle backgrounds HATE it, but to get the respect you have to do it?
I think everyone who competes should get cash and there should be more cash rewards for those who finish their lines and huge cash for the rider that does the gnarliest run. Gnarliest run voted by the actual riders(cant vote for yourself) Get rid of the judges and scoring altogether. Make it more about the comraderie(splelling) and giving huge props to everyone involved. Also I think builders should get props somehow, as they are a integral part of the event. Also; teach the kids asking for goggles to learn to respect the riders!! Give props and congrats on safe runs, not begging for gear. C'mon parents!
At the speed RR riders push toward the more more more direction. It's just a matter of time before the shit it the fan. And then, legal department will take care of rest. Risking life for the show is an other ball game
SYDNEY HOBART 1998 edition was IMO the firts to cross that line and it cost them.
If I was Red Bull I would be so sick of hearing people complain about prize money and judging I would just get rid of it.
Same qualifying process, awards for things like best trick, gnarliest line, steepest shoot, biggest jump etc. Then anyone who gets invited gets the whole experience payed for, 5start accommodation, food and the like. No money is really worth putting your life on the line is it?
What is the purse for top spot? I think all invitees should get full paid accommodations and travel. and take the money off the table. I cant see how anyone would do that risk for such a small monetary award. You have to love it to do that shit. Besides all the sponsor pickups for doing well (ahem, Nell)
I'm sure it's worth it for Red Bull. The payouts are laughable. Look at pro video gaming. In Dota 2, the games developer, Valve starts the prize pool at $1 million and then contributes 25% of the in games sales for ~3 months to the prize pool. Last year it was a record-breaking TWENTY-FIVE million dollars. Granted they are on teams of 5 + coaches + team managers etc. but still. I realize the video game industry is much larger than the MTB industry but companies could probably contribute more.
The way I see it, is if the rider feels the risk is so great that they don't want to take a second run, there needs to be some re-evaluation. At that point the TV product is losing it's shine as well.
Not sure of the solution, but "Made my run, not doing it again" isn't really a great way to run an event, IMO.
Its awesome how many different ways people can see mountain biking as 'their' sport, from xc to downhill/freeride. And even within these subsets, people still have their own ways of looking at it down to granular level, including style, tricks, and technical prowess. I love freeride/downhill, i dont think id hit anything at rampage without a guaranteed $10mil waiting on the other side
I think we need to know more about each rider's potential winnings. Don't some sponsors pony up a significant matching dollar amount for winning an event? That must be true of Rampage.
@taquitos: I suppose you're right, but I guess I should have been more clear and said who cares? I have better things to worry about than how a professional athlete - who I have no relation to beyond admiration for their bike riding prowess - is getting compensated to entertain and preform.
I have always been amazed with it because I could never do anything like that. I can care less about the competition aspect as I don’t watch crankworx or other slope style events. Rampage for me is all about the awe factor
It’s worth it for the riders clearly. Most of the talk in the video seemed to be about the reward of making it to the bottom. This I understand and I’m sure most if not all mountain bikers have had this feeling at one time or another. But obviously for some it is not worth the competition. For example at this years rampage many riders chose not to take a second run. I think this is because they did it once and the validation of a potentially higher score isn’t worth it to them. If the competition was changed in the scoring format I think more riders would take a second run. Like brendog I think he didn’t take another run because he knew that his score couldn’t have been improved on but if everything was scored differently he might have because he would have been siting higher in the rankings. This is where I get confused. If a rider says I love the feeling of getting to the bottom why not do it twice? I think it comes down to the scoring and that is what needs to be changed not the cash prize.
I can tell you they did a great job of destroying it for spectators.. they crammed people in so tight there was no where to sit. I have been for the last 5 years and I'll skip it from now on... very sad.
Skiing the big mountains is still much riskier then Rampage, and there are plenty of folks not getting paid to do that. And the bikers don't have the mountains wanting to kill them.
My opinion? Rampage WAS exiting... Nowadays is a completely bored event, just check the "last run" of the 2018 winner... New names doesn't mean new (and exiting) tricks... Also, Aggy never win one rampage.
Tons of people did the stuff for no money, and that's about all I can say. I'd say it's a culmination of people doing what they want. Batman gets paid to do what he wants.
We're too biased to have a credible opinion here either way—we love watching but hate to watch our friends take slams. That's why we asked them... You don't think it's worth taking to athletes about this stuff?
@brianpark: this is a great question to ask. I say drop the points altogether and let the riders vote for gnarliest run, trick, line, builder etc. spread all the money to all the riders. They all deserve somthing for this.
@giantkeeper: That's a truly awful comparison. I am not at risk of dying/being paralyzed/breaking bones/dying at my job, and in the unlikely event that I do, my work will pay me 80% of my salary for the rest of my life. These guys get hurt, they get a thank you.
@tgent: they do it for the love of doing it, the event just gives a consolidated stage for all competitors to show their skillz. They all know the risks that come with the sport both physically and financially.
Statistically riding in Rampage is probably safer than driving, we all risk death to run downtown for a cup of coffee, for $65,000 I would risk it. I mean if you get invited, you ain't exactly a slouch on the old bike!
Eek. There's no way, even with the level of injuries that have happened at Rampages that this is true.
Making the huge leap that it was true, this claim would be predicated upon such extreme sampling bias (99.99th percentile athletes vs basically the general population), that it'd go straight into the "nonsense" bin.
@pmhobson: I am talking straight percentage of injury to trip ratio. And yes average person to top athlete as no average person is invited to Rampage, as I indicated in my original post. And if you want to find the stats on injuries at Rampage compared to total trips down than that would be great, I couldn't some up with anything.
What I am saying is statistically speaking your chance of dying in Rampage as a competitor is less than your chance of dying driving your car. People dead at rampage "0" compared to people dead in cars "1.25 million per year"!
@Bomadics: Again, afraid sampling bias clouds this. A more apt comparison would be likelihood of serious injury (or death if want) for these riders at rampage vs their equivalent time driving a vehicle in normal conditions.
And you can't limit this to just the available data of Rampage participation. Just because "0" of my houses have burned down so far, doesn't mean I'm immune to the risks around them.
So if we go back and think about how many articles we read about the injuries pro riders sustain while riding and compare that to articles about injuries sustain in vehicles, we can perhaps get a clearer picture. Note my two underlying assumptions here: a) pinkbike would report on a pro sustaining a serious injury in an accident; and b- pro riders spend considerable time traveling in vehicles for riding, competing, training, and everyday life.
@pmhobson: Dude read my post, don't filter it through your own ego trying to prove me wrong. I am talking about death, if you don't understand my post fine, but you are twisting it into something it is not.
I will try one more time, a pro rider in Rampage is much less likely to die during the competition than an average driver is to die during an average trip to the store. That is not up for debate it is just a fact, proven by the statistics. If you want to do some MIT algebra to try and prove you are intelligent, please go ahead.
@Bomadics: It's not proven by the statistics. You're simply wrong on that.
Have zero people died at Rampage? Yes. Does that mean that the probability of dying is zero? Absolutely not. Why? Because of kinetic energy and probabilities. I'll repeat the house fire analogy: the fact that my house hasn't yet burned down doesn't mean there's no risk. And just because no one has died at Rampage doesn't mean that the probability of dying is zero.
You can't compare 1.25 million traffic deaths (your number) from the general population to the limited amount of time even the most elite riders have spent at Rampage. It's not even apples and oranges. It's the Golden Girls vs Rick and Morty.
Rampage is likely one of the most risky things these riders to all year. They acknowledge this in the video. It's strange that you don't.
@pmhobson: I never said the chance of death at Rampage is zero, you brought that up out of thin air, you just introduced as something I said when it was something you just made up. I said that the chance of dying as a professional athlete in Rampage is less than the chance of dying in your car for the average driver, what is so hard to understand about that?
That's it nothing more, and the stats back me up because no one has died in Rampage ever. So going by the numbers, a professional rider that is invited to Rampage because of his ability to negotiate the course has less probability of dying than the average driver going for a coffee.
The skill levels are comparable, if anything the average driver should be statistically less likely to die because they have more practice time behind the wheel than a pro rider spends competing at Rampage.
And I again never said Rampage was not dangerous, I would likely die trying to hike to the top let alone ride down, and the riders risk death just building their lines. They risk life and limb on every single run, and I said nothing about how dangerous Rampage was, you again brought up things that had nothing to do with my post.
You said: "I said that the chance of dying as a professional athlete in Rampage is less than the chance of dying in your car for the average driver, what is so hard to understand about that?"
It's not hard to understand. I understand it perfectly. I just think that your reasoning is over simplistic and flawed.
@pmhobson: great glad to know that I am simplistic and flawed. Everyone in the forum respects your intellect now which was of course my main reason for making this observation on the first place! Thanks for you help!
@Bomadics: I don't think you're simplistic! I never said that. I think your reasoning on this topic is.
Wrapping our heads around risks and probabilities is tough! There's a reason insurance companies pay actuaries a lot of money. It's not dentist money, mind you, but it's damn good money.
@pmhobson: I know I am not simplistic, I don't need your reassurance as I was being sarcastic, but I to appreciate your intent. Of course my reasoning was simplistic, I was making a comment on the forum for fun. I understand risk and probabilities very well, I have been mountain biking since the early 70's, including racing DH starting in the 90's right up until a few years ago.
I used to be a driving instructor in Vancouver so I understand and have studied driving statistics for years. It is WAY more dangerous to drive your car to the store than it is to compete in Rampage as a rider at a Pro level, not the average rider like you and me, but for a PRO.
Probability of dying in a car as of 2015 according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety is about 1 in 77 every time you travel in your car in the United States. Probability of dying in Rampage according to statistics of the event as an invited rider is 1 in ZERO. Where in these very simple statistics do you find the previously mentioned flaw in my argument?
We can't say that the probability of death at Rampage (call it R) is 0 or even lower than some other probability (call it X) simply because we've observed X in huge population with tons of exposure and we haven't observed R in very small population with very limited exposure. That's not how probabilities (i.e., risk) works.
I also think that you might be mistating that 1 in 77 vehicle trips resulting in death number(or I'm misunderstanding it -- holler if I am). Population in the US ~325 million. Let's say that 25% of them get in a car and drive everyday and that every crash with a death only causes one death. With a death in every 77 of those vehicle trips, we'd expect about 1 million people dying every day. I don't think we're observing that right now.
Since I don't think mileage is how we'd want to compare driving to Rampage, let's transform it to participation time. If the average speed of a car on a US roadway is 80 mph (that's high), we'd expect a return interval that's at least 1,070,000 vehicle-hours for a death on US roads.
My point in all this is that the cumulative time of all Rampage run from all riders to date, we haven't come close to the return interval of a vehicle death in the US. Therefore, we simply cannot say that Rampage (for a pro rider) is safer than driving (for a pro rider or the general population)
Any vehicle related accident has a 1 in 102 chance of dying, just vehicle occupants a 1 in 583 chance of death.
if you take the most dangerous sport, base jumping it has a 1 in 2317 chance of dying, so it is much safer than vehicles. Cycling is actually the third most dangerous sport, but this includes all disciplines, a 1 in 92,324 chance of death. A pro riders chance of death in Rampage so far is Zero.
You all think I stated that Rampage is not dangerous, I said no such thing, I said the driving your car is more dangerous than COMPETING in Rampage, and the numbers prove my point.
Don't forget, this event was made by a Collective of OG shredders and it has become an organized, safe and contest driven event. I still think the Lore of Rampage is the Reward - and being crowned Champion on a badass piece of mountain is a sight to behold.
Not many of us get up top of a mountains edge and peer off thinking...I got this.
The Peoples Champion Vs.The Crowned King? Who feels like the Winner?
It's cool to watch these guys set themselves up and launch it off the booters - that's why we watch and are amazed at their talent.
You're all winners to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee…..post that medal on the fridge so your daddy can see when he gets home!!!
Fact is, it’s not there yet and it’s frustrating. Infuriating given the risks taken.
What makes the Olympic Games or the World Cup extra special? They only happen once every four years.
Rampage would do better to follow this format. Instead of two days to dig with a two man crew or whatever it is, just make it into a marquee event. Two months to get ready, huge sponsors, guaranteed appearance money of $50,000 each for all riders. That would be better for everyone.
Having it every year devalues the event, in my opinion.
Yeah, I agree. I admit.. I like watching Rampage, but when are we going to minimize the chance of riders being killed? I love the way Josh aka Rat Boy and the 50to01 crowd is going. You can still impress people doing crazy stuff 3' off the ground instead of hucking yourself upside down off a 40' cliff. Just my two cents.
It got bigger but not better.
Now mix up some Hardline racing with a few Rampage like option lines for points and I think it would be better for all.
It’s no different than nfl football where you risk long lasting brain damage by playing. Not all will be affected but some will. These guys have all weighed the risks and some would do this shit even without the exposure. Some wouldn’t.
P.S. - I do think the event would be safer and more fun to watch if it was less trick oriented and focused more on creatively navigating the terrain.
Same with fest, first season of it was rowdy. But now it’s just so repetitive of guys doing straight airs over huge gaps. Talent is required but boring to watch a million times
If Rampage is the trademark of our sport, World Cup DH is right behind it and the risks and marketing are similar.
Here's a boring video for the Rampage haters:
youtu.be/LMA8bp3d1VI
If you notice... the guys questioning the worth or at least quantifying it... are all guys that have been hurt. Ask Paul this same question and see what he says.
To me the question should not be... Is it worth it. The question should be... can we get you more and should we.
Answer to that is yes. It is honestly down right ridiculous that Red Bull has even had to be challenged to raise it to the point they have raised it. Until recently they did not get show up money and the pay outs were next to nothing.
This is Red Bull's most watched event, period. They have very very little expense in producing it in comparison to many other similar events. The riders are doing their own work. The network is in place and so is the established viewership. Now people like Fox or ESPN or whatever are starting to reshow the event. That means they're paying Red Bull for the content.
This needs to be a big pay out event. I think you have to be careful not to go to far with it because you don't want people making stupid choices for the opportunity of earning a million dollars. But paying out the winner say $250k would be warranted. Raising show up amounts, look at what Godziek said in his videos... the foreign guys lose money to show up.
Raise the show up money to $10k and at least triple the pay out to winners, etc. That is still a very very small chunk when compared to what Red Bull is pulling in.
To me it's very similar to the comparison of Boxing and the UFC. Same pay per view numbers, the boxer is making $3m-10m. The UFC guy is making $100k-500k. So who's pocketing the rest. The UFC. They could double their pay outs and still be underpaying people. I think that Rampage is in a similar boat. They can double and triple it and still be underpaying guys but at least they'd be respecting them.
Riders will continue to do it anyways... but that doesn't mean that as an industry we and as a fanbase that we should not be pushing Red Bull to pony up. Especially with their expansion in the camping area, fan zone, etc. They want companies like Ohlins (this years suspension sponsor) to pony up $25k to do that. Run that out to the other sponsors at lower dollar amounts and you're talking about $250k worth of income just from companies wanting logo placement and/or display space. Campers paying, attendees paying, selling swag at a 3-500% profit margin. Etc. They're making stupid money off this.
A direct comparison is the Mavericks surf competition. Back in 2009 they doubled the payout and became the highest paying event in surfing. Here's what Beading the CEO said...
“There really is no amount of money on Earth that could compensate the guys for the risks they take out there at Maverick’s,” Keir Beadling, CEO of Mavericks Surf Ventures, wrote in an e-mail, “and I honestly believe they’d surf in the contest with no prize purse. Many of them have said as much."
That is exactly what we're talking about here. Will they do it. Yup. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid a reasonable amount to do it.
So.... in short.... you're asking the wrong question so that you can get the answer you want. You get riders to say... yes it's worth it and you get amo to use when you don't pay what you should/could. All this video did was ask a predictable question to get predictable answers to get people to forget about the issue.
So start asking the right questions and start getting the right answers.
I'd bet my bike that Red Bull shows up and loses money on this event every year. The costs must be huge.
You bring up UFC. UFC makes a profit by selling out arenas and charging $99 for PPV. Where do you think Red Bull's mystery profit on Rampage comes from? The PinkBike crowd watching the well-produced stream for free? The $20 tickets sold to the 400 people who drive in? I bet the ticket sales pay for 2 hours of the MedEvac heli that's on site for four days.
You are right to bring up Mavericks. The promoter you quote is no longer in business and gave up the event the year after they gave that quote. That event has also been tossed around from promoter to promoter over the last five years (the last two went bankrupt). Also that event has only ran 4 times in the last 10 years.
Look, doing stuff like this is hard and expensive and requires companies that do it because the people who work there love this stuff. Just because you say that there should be more money doesn't mean reality and economics will cooperate.
Every Rampage thread has a bunch of people saying that Red Bull needs to do more but the reality is Red Bull is the only company stepping up and writing the check every year.
Say the event costs $2million. What do you think NBC pays to air it every year? $3million?
In order to do that, they'd want to sell $4million in ads. Given that each hour of TV has about 14 minutes of ads, that means each 30 second spot would cost $150,000.
That's the price of a spot for an early season NFL game. Those games get roughly 10 times the viewership of what Rampage does so the above seems highly unlikely.
On YouTube, the average video gets paid $7 per 1000 views. Let's assume 8,000,000 views for Rampage videos. That's $56,000.
Doesn't add up.
And when what the entire post really boiled down to is that people are asking the wrong question. And that point still stands regardless of the number crunching arguments. The entire video seemed to be Red Bull addressing the constant statement that riders aren't getting paid enough by asking the riders the wrong questions in order to get the responses they need to defend that they are because the riders would do it either way. Which is the wrong way to think about it.
The UFC/Boxing comparison was really just to illustrate that just because money is coming in doesn't mean money is being fairly distributed.... or even respectfully distributed. Example...
And side note on Mavericks. Pretty sure there was a bunch of drama and Red Bull was suing cartel for breach of contract. They started up Titans of Mavericks, etc. They filed 11 to avoid the lawsuit and the $3m or something they owed. World Surf League bought it. And if I'm not mistaken they actually decreased the payouts from 2009 to something like $130k for 2017. They are also missing the boat in my opinion. They paid over a half million dollars just for the permits to be able to run the comp. Seems like they can afford to pay the surfers more than $4-5k each on average. And if I'm not mistaken, the O.G.'s don't really care for what's happening right now.
There's a ton of corporate interest, rules, etc. But the payouts aren't there to go along with that.
Hard to say. Millions of views translates to a lot if advertising dollars. Couple hundred k in sponsor money and a few thousand in swag sales. $500 per experience. $300 for camping. Day tickets $65. Media passes. Etc. Call it $30k. They get paid for the tv replays. Etc. All speculations... who the F knows. Lol. A lot. They spend alot too. Helicopters. Drone pilots. Staffing. Food. Permits. Mr x games announcing. That 3d stuff they did. Etc. Big expensive event. But its making enough the Red Bull is putting attention to it now. Im sure they could easily double appearance pay out and prize money. Triple for the winner. This year RB stepped into the evebt a lot more than years passed. Its their most watched event.
For that he has to race a distance of 226 miles while averaging 135mph on narrow public roads. (That's 364km at 227km/h for the rest of the world)
For everyone else, it seems to be all about the money.....
Often we would hear this from Pro-MXers, all along every amateur goes to the tracks and take the same relative risks with arguable much more potential for injury.
The fact is, extreme dudes choose to do extreme things, regardless of the payday.
Also I cannot speak for everyone, just for myself. Here's 2 things I feel like I share with the riders.
1) The love for the sport
2) I have had my fair share of serious injuries that have required surgeries, physical therapy, and down time off the bike.
The things I've gone through likely would deter most people from coming back to this style of riding. I'm not saying never riding again, just the high risk stuff. Although every time I was hurt, I always cursed the fact that I was not going to be able to ride for a significant amount of time. This frustrated me. But...it was never "I'm not doing this again". I understand the risks in the sport yet I try to better myself each season knowing those risks.
I don't get paid to do any of this, I do it because this is what I want to do. Granted with the pro's, there's money involved, but I would think at their roots these are all people that love riding and worked their ass off to get where they are at. Personal goals and love for biking will go a looong way to motivate someone to do something related to this sport. Money is the extra incentive, especially since it's how most of the top guys are making a living.
So is it worth the prize money? I would say yes...because every single rider goes in knowing they "could" win, not that they "will" win. The money isn't guaranteed. But it's also an opportunity to better yourself. Before anyone podiums, you just have to look at their reactions. Most riders when they get to the bottom are so stoked that they made it down, conquered their line, did something they never thought they would do, etc. Should they pay them more? Sure! But I don't believe money isn't the only incentive fueling the riders' fire.
I've followed Rampage damn near since the beginning and will continue. It's an event that really was a game changer. I believe it's the gateway to things that have spawned like Hardline and the Fest Series. With Fest though, it's not about the money at all. the risks are still super high as these guys are going HUGE. It's about throwing down with your boys and having a helluva time doing it. The reason we all got on 2 wheels in the first place
Judging MTBing tricks like a surf contest is really frustrating when you think the judges blew it, and it pushes guys to do stuff that personally I think is stupid, that know one does in my world.
Red Bull should switch it up this year and make it a race just like Hardline.
I’m just not impressed by the tricks as much as I am seeing smooth fast riding that is timed, and is a lot safer in my mind than what these guys are doing.
Sad to say though I will watch it every year until someone dies, then know one will watch because it will be canceled
Red Bull are you listening, I got more where this came from.
*https://www.instagram.com/paulbasmtb/?hl=en
It's almost a generational thing. (Admittedly Zink and Strait have been there for ages themselves). I wonder if a lot of the guys who come from more contemporary flippy-whippy slopestyle backgrounds HATE it, but to get the respect you have to do it?
Same qualifying process, awards for things like best trick, gnarliest line, steepest shoot, biggest jump etc. Then anyone who gets invited gets the whole experience payed for, 5start accommodation, food and the like. No money is really worth putting your life on the line is it?
I think all invitees should get full paid accommodations and travel. and take the money off the table. I cant see how anyone would do that risk for such a small monetary award. You have to love it to do that shit. Besides all the sponsor pickups for doing well (ahem, Nell)
Not sure of the solution, but "Made my run, not doing it again" isn't really a great way to run an event, IMO.
www.singletracks.com/blog/trail-advocacy/mountain-biking-has-an-identity-crisis-and-it-affects-us-all
New names doesn't mean new (and exiting) tricks... Also, Aggy never win one rampage.
Relevant The Oatmeal Comic: theoatmeal.com/static/exposure.html
www.pinkbike.com/news/risk-vs-reward-contest-insurance-2014.html
If (hope to God not) someone dies on that hill on of these years, what will be the impact on our sport?
Lol
I’d never win, maybe make it down the Mtn rubbers down on a lucky day, but definitely nothing like the pros!
To a general rider a crash there would be devastating
Those guys that enter rampage are one tough customer
yeah and how many people get paralyzed at the bike park? Not many, but it happens. Its a dangerous sport.
Making the huge leap that it was true, this claim would be predicated upon such extreme sampling bias (99.99th percentile athletes vs basically the general population), that it'd go straight into the "nonsense" bin.
What I am saying is statistically speaking your chance of dying in Rampage as a competitor is less than your chance of dying driving your car. People dead at rampage "0" compared to people dead in cars "1.25 million per year"!
And you can't limit this to just the available data of Rampage participation. Just because "0" of my houses have burned down so far, doesn't mean I'm immune to the risks around them.
So if we go back and think about how many articles we read about the injuries pro riders sustain while riding and compare that to articles about injuries sustain in vehicles, we can perhaps get a clearer picture. Note my two underlying assumptions here: a) pinkbike would report on a pro sustaining a serious injury in an accident; and b- pro riders spend considerable time traveling in vehicles for riding, competing, training, and everyday life.
I will try one more time, a pro rider in Rampage is much less likely to die during the competition than an average driver is to die during an average trip to the store. That is not up for debate it is just a fact, proven by the statistics. If you want to do some MIT algebra to try and prove you are intelligent, please go ahead.
Have zero people died at Rampage? Yes. Does that mean that the probability of dying is zero? Absolutely not. Why? Because of kinetic energy and probabilities. I'll repeat the house fire analogy: the fact that my house hasn't yet burned down doesn't mean there's no risk. And just because no one has died at Rampage doesn't mean that the probability of dying is zero.
You can't compare 1.25 million traffic deaths (your number) from the general population to the limited amount of time even the most elite riders have spent at Rampage. It's not even apples and oranges. It's the Golden Girls vs Rick and Morty.
Rampage is likely one of the most risky things these riders to all year. They acknowledge this in the video. It's strange that you don't.
That's it nothing more, and the stats back me up because no one has died in Rampage ever. So going by the numbers, a professional rider that is invited to Rampage because of his ability to negotiate the course has less probability of dying than the average driver going for a coffee.
The skill levels are comparable, if anything the average driver should be statistically less likely to die because they have more practice time behind the wheel than a pro rider spends competing at Rampage.
And I again never said Rampage was not dangerous, I would likely die trying to hike to the top let alone ride down, and the riders risk death just building their lines. They risk life and limb on every single run, and I said nothing about how dangerous Rampage was, you again brought up things that had nothing to do with my post.
You said:
"I said that the chance of dying as a professional athlete in Rampage is less than the chance of dying in your car for the average driver, what is so hard to understand about that?"
It's not hard to understand. I understand it perfectly. I just think that your reasoning is over simplistic and flawed.
Wrapping our heads around risks and probabilities is tough! There's a reason insurance companies pay actuaries a lot of money. It's not dentist money, mind you, but it's damn good money.
I used to be a driving instructor in Vancouver so I understand and have studied driving statistics for years. It is WAY more dangerous to drive your car to the store than it is to compete in Rampage as a rider at a Pro level, not the average rider like you and me, but for a PRO.
Probability of dying in a car as of 2015 according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety is about 1 in 77 every time you travel in your car in the United States. Probability of dying in Rampage according to statistics of the event as an invited rider is 1 in ZERO. Where in these very simple statistics do you find the previously mentioned flaw in my argument?
We can't say that the probability of death at Rampage (call it R) is 0 or even lower than some other probability (call it X) simply because we've observed X in huge population with tons of exposure and we haven't observed R in very small population with very limited exposure. That's not how probabilities (i.e., risk) works.
I also think that you might be mistating that 1 in 77 vehicle trips resulting in death number(or I'm misunderstanding it -- holler if I am). Population in the US ~325 million. Let's say that 25% of them get in a car and drive everyday and that every crash with a death only causes one death. With a death in every 77 of those vehicle trips, we'd expect about 1 million people dying every day. I don't think we're observing that right now.
When I look at the IIHS website I see that there were recently (2017) 11.4 annual deaths per 100,000 people and 1.16 annual deaths per 100 million miles traveled.
www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/state-by-state-overview
Since I don't think mileage is how we'd want to compare driving to Rampage, let's transform it to participation time. If the average speed of a car on a US roadway is 80 mph (that's high), we'd expect a return interval that's at least 1,070,000 vehicle-hours for a death on US roads.
My point in all this is that the cumulative time of all Rampage run from all riders to date, we haven't come close to the return interval of a vehicle death in the US. Therefore, we simply cannot say that Rampage (for a pro rider) is safer than driving (for a pro rider or the general population)
Here is a link to the figures in the US www.iii.org/table-archive/20382
Any vehicle related accident has a 1 in 102 chance of dying, just vehicle occupants a 1 in 583 chance of death.
if you take the most dangerous sport, base jumping it has a 1 in 2317 chance of dying, so it is much safer than vehicles. Cycling is actually the third most dangerous sport, but this includes all disciplines, a 1 in 92,324 chance of death. A pro riders chance of death in Rampage so far is Zero.
You all think I stated that Rampage is not dangerous, I said no such thing, I said the driving your car is more dangerous than COMPETING in Rampage, and the numbers prove my point.
"A pro riders chance of death in Rampage so far is Zero"
This is not true and demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of risk, probability of observation, and censored data.
"if you take the most dangerous sport, base jumping it has a 1 in 2317 chance of dying, so it is much safer than vehicle"
This is also incorrect as it does not account for participation in the events. You're still biasing your sample populations into oblivion.
How many Rampage riders have died in motor vehicle accidents? Does that mean that professional riders are safer drivers?
You are wanting to compare something that has nothing to do with what I am comparing.