A PINKBIKE ORIGINAL
THE GRIM DONUT 2
Part 2: The Right Amount of Stupid
Words by Mike LevyThe Grim Donut wasn't supposed to work. It should be near-unrideable, a joke of a bike taken too far, and a punchline that took too long to reach. But if you've already watched the video, you'll know that only the last part of that is true. The Donut was intended to be stupid, but could it be the right amount of stupid?
Okay, fine, it might not work
everywhere, but its 57-degree head angle, 83-degree seat angle, and Winnebago-like wheelbase aren't quite so funny now that we've done timed testing with Yoann Barelli...
How'd We Get Here? The idea behind the Grim Donut was to skip the drawn-out process of brands getting to the geometry we'll obviously be using in 2030. I mean, if that's where we're going, why don't we just go there now? To do that, we looked at the difference between the numbers we used in 2010 and those we're using today, then we simply applied the difference. To be honest, I'm not sure why no one's done this before.
We're far better at misguided methods than welding, though, so we reached out to Genio, a relatively small but high-end Taiwanese factory.
The 160mm-travel frame is known as 'GF7-1-160A' in Genio's catalog, but after welding two downtubes together to get the required length and applying our future-proofed geometry, it's better known as the Grim Donut. If you need to catch up,
here's the first part of the story.
The only thing left to do was ride it, which brings us to the next chapter in the Donut's protracted life.
Timed Testing Aboard the Grim Donut It's not that I wasn't excited to ride the Donut, it's just that I had some reservations. Sure, I have to get used to a new-to-me bike every few weeks, but I'm usually not wondering if the headtube will decide to take the day off. And the bikes usually aren't seven or eight degrees slacker and about a foot closer to the ground. So yeah, I was apprehensive.
I survived, despite having more pedal strikes in three-hundred-feet than I have over the last three-years, and the Donut's headtube is still on duty to this day. But it was obvious that my cautious approach and the less-than steep trail were, um, less than ideal for the geometry we'll be using in 2030. Thankfully, we know a guy who might not even know what 'cautious' means in English...
It got serious as soon as I handed the Donut over to Yoann Barelli. After all, it's one thing for me to go out and have some laughs while riding our wacky bike, but it became obvious that Barelli wasn't joking around. Off the bike, yes. On the bike, not so much. The Frenchman was placing well in the Enduro World Series only a few years ago, and judging by his recent videos I'm not sure he's slowed down one bit since.
The test track was around two-minutes long, full of sharp rocks, steep slabs and, luckily for the Donut, not much pedaling. It's also a trail that Yoann was very familiar with, having used it to evaluate his bikes over the years. That's important because it means he could take consistent lines at a consistent effort during the timed laps rather than having to learn the trail. And speaking of learning, Yoann spent all of a few minutes getting used to the Donut, his only changes from my setup being to raise tire pressures a nip and to rotate the brake levers up to near-level.
| The EWS in Chile? This bike wins by a minute.— Yoann Barelli |
After posting a 2:09 aboard his own bike, itself nearly twenty-seconds quicker than the existing KOM, it was the Donut's turn to go up against the Freelap clock. And if you thought Yoann would be a bit apprehensive given its odd geometry and unfamiliar components, his GoPro footage says otherwise...
2:03Yoann went six-seconds quicker aboard the Donut over the span of a short, two-minute descent. On his first timed lap. Using completely unfamiliar brakes, tires, and cockpit. My reaction in the video is genuine - I didn't think the Donut would be much slower, but I certainly didn't expect Yoann to go faster. A lot faster.
Is it a coincidence that the Donut is about six-degrees slacker than Yoann's personal bike and he also shaved about six-seconds off his time? Given the Donut's rigorous development and groundbreaking approach to choosing geometry, I'd say there's zero chance of that being the case.
Yoann clearly made the Donut work for him, but that might not mean it makes sense as a daily driver for those of us without a pro racing license. ''
No, I don't think so. As a race perspective, I think yes. And I think that maybe this test might make brands see a little out of the box, and if they want racers to be faster, maybe they have to make proper bikes for the racers.''
''
Would I ride this bike every day? Absolutely not,'' said Yoann after his run on the Grim Donut. ''
The way it is right now, the geometry isn't pleasant. When you pedal, you're going to hit them on the ground. And it doesn't corner properly, but it works when you go super fast.'' Having done some tentative test laps of my own on the Donut, I can confirm that it's a handful when you're not at ten-tenths. ''
But on something like that,'' he said of the rocky, high-speed trail, ''
where it's kinda fast with long corners, you just have to be pretty centered on the bike and you just go for it!''
It makes sense to hear Barelli say that the Donut's long, slack, and maybe-a-bit-too-low geometry best suits eye-watering speeds, and there's no doubt that
its overly-active suspension only helps that cause. Stability and traction equal speed, and that's even truer when both are hard to come by.
"
The EWS in Chile? This bike wins by a minute,'' Yoann said of the dusty, loose South American event where racers often say they find only anti-grip.
| I think that maybe this test might make brands see a little out of the box, and if they want racers to be faster, maybe they have to make proper bikes for the racers.— Yoann Barelli |
What Do We Do Now? What do the microwave, Post-It notes, chocolate chip cookies, and the Grim Donut all have in common? They were all fortunate accidents. This was originally meant to be a two-part series and the joke was supposed to be on us; the Donut was supposed to be terrible and we were supposed to learn some kind of lesson. Instead, we may have stumbled onto something promising. Too promising too ignore.
So we're gonna do the only thing we can, which is to begin work on the next Grim Donut prototype. Expected release date: 2030.
Want more Donut? Part 1: We Went to Taiwan & Made a Bike from the Future - The Grim DonutBehind the Numbers: The Grim DonutWe Tested Our Bike From The Future - The Grim Donut Part 2 (April Fools)Created by
Brian Park & Jason Lucas
Produced & Directed by
Jason Lucas
Starring
Mike Levy, Yoann Barelli
Featuring
Chris Cocalis, Aaron Gwin
Additional Footage by
Max Barron, Cole Nelson & Chris Ricci
Words by
Mike Levy & Brian Park
Photography by
Brian Park
Special Thanks to
Yoann Barelli, Aaron Gwin, Calvin Lin at Genio Bikes, SRAM, Connor Bondlow at e*Thirteen
Sam Richards at OneUp, Cody Philips,
TRP Brakes, Chris Cocalis at Pivot, Nick Morgan at
Corsa Cycles, Karl & Radek Burkat
Got to be thorough no?
Lets add a chain guide first just for safe measure.
American will drop the H by 2030. Your user of the word "older" is from the future too. LOL
I'm still laughing though looking at that circus oddity go down the hill.
Turn shock to keep piggy back close to ST that’s should clear space for 7-900mil water bottle mounted horizontal under TT
Love French accent in English!!!
www.vitalmtb.com/features/Ultra-Long-210mm-Travel-Enduro-Machine-Is-This-the-Ultimate-MTB,2947
And if you can pull it off, add a dash of electricity. Not full-blown e-Bike, but the future (fortunately or unfortunately) will be electrified.
If you're going to try to make it a real trail/enduro bike, you're going to have to make some more serious changes to fix the climbing handling, which likely means raising the bb more than you would on the race bike, as well as steepening/shortening the front end slightly to improve maneuverability.
One note on why bike manufacturers might be so slow to make geometry changes - it's super difficult for designers to sell major changes to product managers, or get them to take a risk on something that's super progressive. That's why you see brands like Pole doing what they're doing, versus the big box guys who operate at a much smaller change rate. Alternatively, the majority of customers ride those bikes from the big box, so we end up with a feedback loop of "this is what everyone's riding, so this is where the industry should be headed". It's maddening. Instead, designers are resigned to making small changes to appease their risk-averse superiors.
Buck the low Bb, pedal strike induced carnage trend... Go higher.... Might make it faster and make it worm better in the tight daily corners.
Buck the trend... Go the opposite direction ????????????
simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer
Hears my Stumpy mod bike that works surprisingly well but could with slightly higher bb or maybe slightly bigger rear wheel?
www.pinkbike.com/photo/19373829
But you got to love my new Trampoline trail feature?
I remember that earlier video with the xc bike huck to flat and the shot of the uppers at a visibly different angle from the lowers was categorically terrifying.
Since bikes are not homologated like cars, every category is more or less an open category. Find someone fast who is unsponsored and make them go racing. I dont think you're breaking any uci rules. Not park laps, and silly (amazing) videos- actual, honest 110% effort race runs against a clock. Its the only real test.
Hey Dave, where'd you run off to with those linkage forks? You got a sec?
-29 is dead. Get bigger wheels.
-Stems are dead. Handlebars of the future have holes in the middle and slide directly onto the steer tube, secured by pinch fastening hardware.
-All seat tubes now form a perfect perpendicular angle to the ground.
-500mm of reach for a size large is dead. Unless you're laid out like a Tron Bike, you're reach is too short.
-Someone invented a device which lets you have two chainrings on the crankset and shift between them remotely. This allowed the rear cassette to once again, be lighter AND affordable.
- @yoannbarelli is still a fast mofo.
But then again, what you would have is basically just a Commencal Supreme dowhnhill bike with a bunch of enduro parts on it.
So, come to think of it, maybe don't bother with making a version 2.0
Broke me neck & got a levo sl to litterally ground me. Shits a ton of fun on flat & rolly trails. No downsides. Even rides like a 40# enduro bike w/ motor off. W/ motor on it turns boring trails to light DH and you can run real tires and not hate life at the 2 hour mark keeping up w/ xc race bikes.
-Steepen HA by 1-2 degrees
-Zeb on the front because of more bushing overlap
-Water bottle mount
-Threaded or T47 BB
-Consider high pivot horst link design if this will be for 'enduro/downhill' racing or keep the same for cost reasons
Make those changes and version 2.0 would likely be saleable in the marketplace!
Note: Such slack HTAs would probably require adjusting offset. That said, it may not make a difference if no one will/can make you a fork with proper adjusted offset. You could maybe find a company to manufacture you custom CNC dual crown fork crowns to play with offsets. I'm sure you're trying to avoid running a dual crown fork on there, but that would be an easier way to test offsets.
C'est SUPER!
Super progressive
240mm rotors
Go super high bb 0mm drop
Equal reach and chainstay 520mm each.
0 offset fork
0mm stem
820mm bar
The closest production bike I can think of (to the donut) is the Geometron G1.
I think the V2 Donut should split the difference between the V1 Donut Geo, and the Geometron G1.
I'd then test all three bikes back to back with a few different pro riders on at least 3 distinctly different trails.
> oh, and make room for that water bottle
A little higher BB
Try a 59 head angle and your're set for a winners bike =)
not sure if that has been been mentioned
How about on the fly geometry adjustment while riding?
To me this thing would get so much funnier and more interesting if you get performances out of such a random design.
Beef it up, put dual crown fork and a full set of DH components, make it longer, lots of travel, bigger wheels if possible, etc.
If you manage to get a rider to smash race times on this, it would be the funniest of all!
Grim Winnebago?
200 mm dual crown, 180 back
29" x 2.8" knobby front tire and 27,5" x 4" semislick back
300 mm dropper post
electric everything including blue LEDs and wifi
www.instagram.com/p/CEDTTaFnmuX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Following trends, this would result in a 1.5 kilo 120mm full suspension frame, which would require far more engineering, R&D, and material science than Pinkbike is willing or capable of doing.
2. Ok, if we are going to talk about the future and need to find when something goes wrong: we need bigger wheel options. When is a wheel too big?
3. And dammit, you didn’t eff it up enough!!! Go slacker until you find the lower limit.
4. Thank you. God dammit. Thank you. Tired of barely different evolutionary bullshit. Push the damn envelope. And then again. And again. And again.
@mikelevy - I'd say you need to try and determine which design factors are contributing to the speed and then try and keep them while designing some of the more serious quirks out - like the too low BB and too active suspension. This may of course be impossible because compromises will have to be made. This bike may be the ultimate horse for a particular course and is perfect just the way it is...
Rear: +30mm
Fork: Dual crown
Bottom bracket: A few mm above current standards, we're at the right amount of stupid already.
Wheelsize: 32F, 29R
Plenty enduro bikes with 216mm shock back of the days
Would be easy transfer for some ppl that can’t afford Full brand new bike - they just need front wheel and fork
Also shock position (reverse) with piggy back on ST side would create more vertical space under TT to accommodate large water bottle
Hope you bake that donut for mass destruction- mean riders
Raise bb 20mm
160 cranks
Make it a medium so maybe 30mm on the top tube and 15 on the chain stays. Get a shock with a lock out and don't lose it.
Don't f*ck it up
I loved my U-turn forks.
I’d set the head-angle to 58 or 59 with a straight oversized head tube to allow +/- 2 degree adjustment in either direction. In the steepest setting you would be close to the current geometron- in the slackest you’d be in line with the V1 donut.
If it takes off, you can partner with them to make a production version.
I understand the reasoning behind finding a frame maker in Taiwan- but for V2 it seems like you’ll need the talents of a custom builder to make the best, most adjustable test mule.
A friend had alpine trekkers on his hellbents. He made the best skin tracks - super wide!
vimeo.com/18809446
(answer is obviously Nintendo switch pro/2)
I know Fox, and Rockshox will all be praying this headtube angle doesn't catch on. Otherwise, they'll have to figure how to prevent not only creaking, but snapping steerer tubes.
IMO, modern consumers are more saavy and less responsive to cookie-cutter marketing and appreciate brands that are honest, approachable, have fun, aren't insecure egomaniacs, etc... Kinda like what we look for in other people that we invest our time with. My 2 cents.
How does he fill his time that he no longer spends commenting on PB?
Is his (architecture?) business flourishing with all that free time?
Does he still read all the comments?
Or is he just shroomin' all day in Sweden?
.... These are the things I wonder.
- 2 wheels with brakes and tires
- it sounds like a shopping cart going downhill
This was worth the wait.
Plus I think he did the sketch in the actual grim doughnut video
For the record as much as some of Waki's comments aren't welcome here anymore, he left on his own and we're still on good terms. We still want to get him out here for a ride one day!
I am glad you guys are in good terms with him, someone defended the waki almost a decade ago with this “alfter a long ride I would much rather have a pint with Waki than with an uptight politically correct guy.” I am paraphrasing but it was something like that.
I quit* drinking 3 months ago or I'd say "hold my beer....."
*on a break.
Which reminds me that I wanted to compliment the use of TRPs on the GD. Those are some well-behaved, sensible stoppers
This bike is his actual we dream.
The G1 I built is exactly what I believe in as I've all done a lot of testing on it past the extremes and back again. I believe the geometry on my bike is ideal because: any slacker in the HA causes problems, making the seat angle steeper causes problems, making the BB too low causes problems.
That's not to say things won't change in the future, but at the moment with current components on the market I don't think there is any room to improve. I hope that all geometry will settle down to be the same across the market in the same way MX bikes are - then people can focus on tuning the rest of the bike to get the best performance from it.
Well if I think I have the perfect geometry for all types of mountain biking, why would I want any different?
Of course, it would still be different for BMX, road cycling and other disciplines.
Almost everything is bike design is a compromise isn't it? softer supple suspension will give more traction and eat up bumps but it will cost pedaling efficiency. Slack head angles and long wheel bases make a bike stable but compromise handling. Soft knobby tires provide great grip but roll like shit. You can apply this to almost every part of bike design.
So looking back, the Donut was designed basically to one extreme. Long, low, supple and slack. It isn't all that crazy that the bike performed so well when matched up to a track on the same end of the spectrum, that was fast, steep, and required very little steering or pedaling.
The suggestion of 'racer only' bikes isn't too far-fetched. Mind you, there's plenty that will take the comfort hit (et al) in order to be pure 'racer'.
As for it being the bike of the future? The mass market generally has to ride these things up, too, and wont always have access to steep flowy trails. As Yoann said, he wouldn’t want it for his everyday bike. And how in the hell does a bike designed by Pinkbike not have room for a water bottle? But it looks like the future of racing — downhill racing, anyway — will be even longer and slacker than what they got going now. Maybe they’ll make a bigger leap in geometry than usual next season.
Well done @mikelevy and the rest of Pinkbike crew.
I assume he means pure prototype for racing only, that disregards any real-world requirements to prioritise race performance. Much like a MotoGP bike compared to the road-legal superbike for sale in the showroom.
In the MotoGP scenario, that bike would be terrible at trying to operate in the real-world, given the different demands of riding on streets/roads/traffic compared to racetrack and vice-versa.
But how different is WC downhill, EWS enduro etc riding compared to the non-competitive riding the rest of us do (aside from speed and skill of the racers of course)? What (i think) i mean is, in terms of bike design, are race demands pretty similar to real-world demands? Or perhaps would a DH bike (for example) designed as a pure prototype for WC racing be designed any differently than a DH bike for someone who is riding DH trails/parks for fun? And i'm thinking strictly of bike design here, rather than componentry.
What i was trying to ask, albeit not very well, was:
A racer's motorbike is designed to go around in a circle(ish) at top speed for a relatively short time/distance. A customer's motorbike is designed for lower speeds, roads, traffic, comfort etc. Hence the design differentiates for the different demands.
A DH racer's bike is designed for riding a DH trail. A DH customer's bike is designed for... riding a DH trail.
So what i'm wondering is if there is any significant design divergance between a race bike and a customer bike when the environment for use is pretty similar?
Maybe they could do like Racing cars and be forced into making a certain number of special pro racing model to get around the rule. With cars they would be called homologation specials, like the Ford RS200 or the Renault 5 Turbo. It would be a lot easier with bikes obviously, so why not?
Other thought is that since you guys are now in the bike frame manufacturing business you might as well start making suspension components! I would think that even if you steepened the headtube angle a little on V2, any standard round stanchion fork would have issues with stiction climbing (slow speed impacts etc). Im sure someone already mentioned this above, but cannondale lefty forks with needle bearings is the answer. Make this bike uglier and even better performing - design a square stanchioned telescoping fork with needle bearings. Throw some zerc fittings in for regular greasing. You guys already turned the industry on its head with the grim donut frame. Might as well kick some sand in its face with the "Éclair" square stanchion needle bearing technology fork!
I can imagine a linkage fork making more sense for HA this slack?
Serious questions: is it the kinematics? not enough compression damping? extra travel? axle path?
wasn't too far off.
And I have the same accent as Yoann, and a tenth of the speed, technique and style. Looks to me like a great combination to test the next prototype. @mikelevy you can PM me to hash out the details
Second thought: SCW1 vs Grim Donut under Yoann.
I'd like to think my bike is a lot more realistic, haha! Mine has been lower and slacker, and then back up to a useable level, and then ridden for thousands of km's on all different terrains!
Thanks, Paul.
Why would they? They have elite level riding skills and don't need band aid fixes to ride properly. I've said all along spend your money on maintaining your current excellent fully capable bike and some of the savings on professional coaching to improve your riding skills.
The Grim wasn't supposed to be faster...
Was it editing or just intentional Mike didn't have the pro ride the donut on a tighter trail to get an average time. Like the pro with excellent riding skiils said longer is faster for a particular type of trail but not every where. Same for current geo on sale.
of course the other thing I've always said as it will get pulled back in with comments like the "new" short is more lively, poppy, nimble. Same industry BS, different year.
There is no perfect bike for every scenario. Do you take an F1 car to Baja?
Funny enough a few years back as bikes stretched out there was outrage in North Vancouver about the dumbing down of the shore. Trails getting flowed out so bikes with DH proportions felt better.
The pro rider said this bike won't work most of the time. Even Mike showed that. How far will they roll the clock back to get a bike that might be at least as versatile as a DH bike?
Its a fun experiment for sure but bikes are never going to get to that point on a large scale. Everyone knows that.
1) How did the chain get back on?
2) Can we get side by side race runs? I want to see where the Donut won.
3) Why does it have a dropper remote but no dropper post?
Great video, yet again, congrats!
Now of course this one needs to be grouptested against the Alutech Armageddon. And make it a theme for the next Hack Bike Derby. If there are some out there who are actually willing to push things to extremes .
Either way, whatever they do, keep Yoann in there and it will be good. And Levy's car.
What did you think and what's the logic in going steeper? Cheers
May I suggest a pool ? Who would you like to spend a week with, riding bikes, just for fun:
1-) Corporate Aaron Gwin
2-) Fun as hell Yoan Barelli ?
I guess this one is easy.
Though fast on one segment here, I am not sure how it will do in other sections. This is no trail or enduro bike as you still have to pedal it. I highly doubt even the most fit top pros can pedal this bike through one complete Enduro Round and still be fresh for each and every DH section. I would expect to see many time penalties climbing with the Grim Donut.
For a DH bike where we do NOT have to pedal, longer is most definitely the ticket. It is just easier to go faster on a longer bike. However, to get this thing pointed where we want it to go, must take a lot of work and will be dam tiring. I myself notice the extra work when the WB is "only" 1250mm. Competitive DH Racers are most likely fit enough to ride this bike through a DH weekend, but 90% of us are not. As for me, I am more about fun than all out speed, I want a bike that is easier to work with so I NOT be totally exasperated after only 2 runs. I want to be able to go all day and get in as many runs as possible.
All the manufacturers already know this though, they are going much longer for their DH bikes though, the new Specialized Demo in smallest size has a whopping 1250mm WB! and Demo's largest is 1300mm. I am thinking it can even go longer for the fast guys. Chainstay Length for the Grim Donut is 450mm, which is the same size for CS on the new Demo, and this will most definitely help with stability.
- A slightly raised BB and/or Hope 165mm cranks (as they’re pretty short for 165 cranks),
- 29 front and back, or ability to mullet if you want.
- Make the front-centre and rear-centre equal.
- High pivot and idler
Would USD forks help help with the front/rear stiffness/bushing problem? Maybe dorados or an Intend USD? I personally think that people are too hung up in torsional stiffness and underestimate how nice and forgiving a USD fork is when hitting stuff fast and hard.
I personally don’t see a problem with Dual crown forks on an enduro bike (it’s not like you’ll be bad spinning on it.
One dumb question though... I am totally hooked on the song at the beginning. Can't get it out of my head and cannot find it on the web. What is it? Who is it? Need to hear the whole thing so can stop replaying the hook over and over!
With current technology one bike could have: on the fly geometry flip, suspension lock, seatpost raise/lower, auto gearing, and tire pressure control. These 5 functions would be wireless w/ central control and could be run on automatic, set, custom, manual, or even reactive/adaptive modes. All of the technology exists except the tire pressure systems need improving.
For example one could operate it fully automated, turn the bike downhill and the geo goes slack, suspension opens, seat drops, tire pressure lowers, turn it uphill and the reverse occurs. Or any number of preferred set modes. Or some functions automatic, others manual or set.
Thoughts?
[url=https://ibb.co/bXXXTDK][img]https://i.ibb.co/5LLLmwR/image.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgbb.com/]image uploader[/url]
Next iteration: 59 degree head angle, 78 degree seat tube angle, same reach, same chainstay length, normal BB height, bottle holder.
I thought you were on our side Levy.
Auction it off for wildfire charity....with a big liability waiver
You are then honing in on ideal geo for Enduro racing.
36" in front
32" in the back.
the future is clear!
Is there not some sort of pylon/sensor that can be purchased that connects to smart phone and uses an app to record when it passes said sensor? Is this more complicating than my brain thinks it is?
www.freelap.ch/mtb
Question. Did YB do a 100% effort on his commy?
Now to get Eddie masters on it as he likes shorter and steeper bikes.
Or think about it from a strength perspective - your shoulders are probably strong enough for you to hold the basic support position on the rings, but I very much doubt you could hold an iron cross.
www.fitstream.com/exercises/ring-training-exercises
Love it!
We all know mm matters - everything matters.