Video: We Went to Taiwan & Made a Bike from the Future - The Grim Donut

Jan 13, 2020
by Pinkbike Originals  

A PINKBIKE ORIGINAL

THE GRIM DONUT

Part 1: we went to Taiwan & made a bike from the future...



Words by Mike Levy


What happens when a joke becomes reality?

It took tens of millions of years for the opposable thumb to show up, and only slightly less time for mountain bike geometry to get to the point where our bikes aren’t actively trying to kill us. This whole evolution thing is a long, slow process.

Just one ride on a machine from a decade ago is all it takes to realize that development hasn't been standing still—bikes these days are damn good. But it sure does seem unhurried sometimes.

Brands design bikes to sell them, shocking I know. From a business perspective there’s just not a lot of upside to taking huge risks in the geometry department. So for all their talk of "game-changing" and "revolutionary," it makes sense for many brands to design bikes to be on-trend next year rather than roll the dice on what might be the future. Something risky may not win over customers, even if it's the future.


The bicycle has come a long way since the 1820s. Lithograph of Denis Johnson s son sending it on his velocipede.
Lithograph of Denis Johnson's son sending it on his velocipede. The bicycle has come a long way since the 1820s.


Yes, there are outliers, the people making wild things in their workshops, and occasionally the established brands can be adventurous, too. But, for the most part, the industry seems to be pushing the envelope forward by about, oh I don’t know, a single degree and a handful of millimeters every few years. At this rate, bikes will have their own opposable thumbs in another twenty million years...

But what if we skipped the evolution part and went straight to revolution?

We've spent the last few years talking half-seriously about how we should just extrapolate where mountain bike development *might be* by pressing the fast-forward button. So what happens when a joke becomes reality and we do exactly that? We're going to find out.

Of course, bikes are really damn good these days, and steady evolution is probably in most riders' best interests... but in the name of “science” or something, it's time to take things a little too far by building a bike from the future. A very long and slack future, it turns out.


The Grim Donut
The original High Pivot Virtual™ suspension design had all the things: dual-links, an idler pulley, and a pivot higher than Snoop in the mid-90s. There was even room for three bottles. Drawing of our original concept by Waki Designs.



Geometry from 2030

The first step was to figure out what bikes would look like in ten years, and we didn't need one of those ''engineer'' types to figure that one out. Wheel size debates and chainstay lengths come and go, but if we see “longer and slacker” in one more press kit…

And unlike developing a new suspension design, geometry doesn't cost anything.

Go back a decade and lots of bikes had head angles hovering around 69-degrees, seat angles that felt about the same, and front-end lengths best suited to small children. Yeah, things were cramped and we flipped over the bars a lot.

So to get to our geometry from the future, we just took the numbers from 2010, punched them into our 2020 digital extrapolator, and boom, we had the numbers we'll be using in 2030. Hey everyone, you're welcome.


The Grim Donut



From custom carbon to catalog aluminum

The best-laid plans often go awry, but that doesn't apply here given that our plans weren't laid all that well.

The dream of letting the factories fight over who was going to manufacture our wacky design was destined to be drowned in bubble tea. Tongue-in-cheek impossible suspension design aside, the startup costs for custom carbon fiber construction would have been far, far too high. Sure, we could have pulled a Tesla and pre-sold some bikes to pay for building them, but we’re too irresponsible to have that hanging over our heads.

Instead, the idler pulley, dual-link suspension layout (High Pivot Virtual™) and carbon construction were abandoned in favor of an already-designed catalog frame—but built with our 2030 geometry. This is where Genio, a relatively small but high-end Taiwanese factory, enters the story with their 160mm-travel GF7-1-160A​ frame.

You can call it the Grim Donut.


The Grim Donut
Yep, forgot to remove the front derailleur mounts... or did we? It's good to be ready, just in case they make a comeback.

The Grim Donut
The Grim Donut



What have we done?

With headtube angles pushing 63° these days, we had to go all the way to 57°. Along the same misguided lines, we've got some modern bikes with seattube angles around 78°, so we added 5° to get to an 83° seattube angle.

Hey, this geometry thing really isn’t all that hard after all.

Reach ended up be decided for us. We were constrained to 500mm because we didn't want to order a bunch of custom tubes or weld two toptubes together, but that seems like a big number so it's probably correct. And then we decided to call it a small-sized frame because, despite the long reach, the super-steep seat angle means the effective toptube length is actually a hair shorter than many small bikes on the market. But in a neat trick, it’s pretty damn big when you stand up! The seat tube is just 400mm tall, too.

If wheels have gotten larger over time, they're probably going to keep getting larger, right? No doubt, which is why we originally looked into making a 29"/32" wheel size combo (sorry). All we got were blank stares and dial tones when we tried to show tire companies the future, though, so our project had to roll on a 27.5"/29" mullet setup. The small rear wheel does allow for conservative 450mm chainstays (we wouldn’t want to get too crazy, right?). Other numbers include 155mm-long children’s cranks, and a 180mm fork mated to 160mm of rear-wheel-travel.

Genio took our geometry numbers, double and triple checked with us to make sure it was actually what we wanted for some reason, and then lit the torch. Eight long weeks later a box arrived at Pinkbike HQ with the very first Grim Donut prototype inside of it.


The Grim Donut
Coming to bicycle dispensaries in about 10 years? The Grim Donut prototype has a 57° head angle, 83° seat angle, 500mm reach (size small), and 450mm chainstays that add up to a whopping 1,409mm wheelbase.


The build

We assume that by 2030 all suspension will be attached directly to our brains via Bluetooth, but for now we went with a RockShox Lyrik and Super Deluxe Coil Ultimate. SRAM won the Innovation of the Year and I'd put money on them being the first to try implementing that brain-implanted suspension microchip, so hopefully they'll offer an upgrade kit. We did try flipping the crown around to shorten the offset, but it ended up contacting the arch and we could feel the SRAM techs' disapproving eye-rolls from miles away.

It's obvious that drivetrains will keep having fewer and fewer gears when you look at the trends since the "glory days" of 27-speed bikes, so we went ahead and chose SRAM's 8-speed eMTB drivetrain. And shrinking crank lengths made it obvious that we had to run SRAM's 155mm kids' bike crankset. It actually looks super badass. TRP eMTB brakes with chonky rotors keep the e-bike theme going, along with e*thirteen's wheels and tires. We're also sticking with the OneUp dropper post because it'll probably still be running fine in ten years, and someone is weirdly obsessed with those weird looking Tioga saddles...

And the rest is, errrr, history.


Stay tuned for part 2 - can you skip evolution? Has the Grim Donut gone too far or is it the right amount of stupid? We'll find out in the next episode.





Created by
Brian Park & Jason Lucas

Produced & Directed by
Jason Lucas

Starring
Mike Levy, Mike Kazimer,
Calvin Lin, & Yoann Barelli

Additional Footage by
Max Barron & Chris Ricci

Words by
Mike Levy & Brian Park

Photography by
Brian Park

Special Thanks to
Genio Bikes, Taipei Cycle Show, TAITRA
Astro, A-Mega, A Pro, Waki Designs for
the Grim Donut drawings, Duncan Riffle
at SRAM, Connor Bondlow at e*Thirteen
Sam Richards at OneUp, Cody Philips,
TRP Brakes, Chris Cocalis at Pivot, The
Aava Whistler Hotel, Nick Morgan at
Corsa Cycles, Karl & Radek Burkat



676 Comments

  • 816 9
 Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should...
  • 18 5
 Well, it's obvious they would. I think I would too.
  • 120 0
 "We had access to too much money, too much equipment, and little by little, we went insane."
  • 5 0
 Just like the T virus...
  • 7 1
 The Bicycle Chopper! Bravi!
  • 63 6
 Bike from the future with a 1x12?! Wheres my 0.5x24?!!! Geeeez you guys seriously...
  • 21 1
 Expecting to see this in the "Comments of the Decade" post in 2030.
  • 4 2
 It looks just like a 2016 Corsair Revo with a 49 degree head angle!
  • 75 0
 I *really* want to see that with a Trust fork on it.

Wait. Maybe I don’t.
  • 44 0
 Head angles, uhhh, find a way.
  • 4 3
 Uhhh....nature...finds...a...way... =P
  • 5 0
 fucking steve...
  • 7 0
 @pperini: Nope... It's a wide range 1x8 eMTB drivetrain. A part from the future I hope we get soon... just lighter.
  • 1 0
 @pperini: it’s a 1x8...
  • 2 0
 Isn't that exactly how most inventions and discoveries happen? "Because we can..."
  • 15 12
 @g123: I can arrange that...
  • 43 16
 @f*ckingsteve: if only Sram and Trek asked themselves that question before they produced Boost...
  • 5 2
 Actually, they couldn't. Levy/Waki's rear suspension layout wouldn't move at all.
  • 8 2
 @WAKIdesigns: No kidding... all the data suggests we should have just gone straight to the 157 DH standard... get all the benefits and then all bikes would be on the same standards... could own one set of wheels for all bikes, etc, etc...
  • 3 0
 must go faster.. must go faster..
  • 18 0
 Complains about short reach, then designs a bike with the reach of a kids bike and wheelbase of a tandem.
  • 1 0
 Quite traditional actually. With 29 inch wheel up front..
  • 5 1
 @islandforlife:

good in theory but don't some frame designs get too wide with 157 and result in heels rubbing on the seatstays? that's also down to each rider's physiology.

I demoed a Fugi LT and had a few encounters with my heel and the seatstay. Would need a second demo before calling it a deal breaker.
  • 11 0
 @WAKIdesigns: let’s see it.

Oh, and for those that think it can’t handle any big air: you’re wrong. Clearly, Levy has already jumped the shark.
  • 2 0
 @blackthorne: long reach, short top tube.
  • 4 0
 When if this isn’t the by product of a pinkbike Dutch rudder staff meeting I don’t know what is.
  • 6 8
 @WasatchEnduro: good observation, when you compound short stays with big feet and fat tubing you will have issues and wider the rear end the worse it gets.
  • 3 0
 Yeah, they could put a waterbottle on the top tube
  • 37 0
 Looking forward to the huck to flat test
  • 1 5
flag filmdrew (Jan 13, 2020 at 11:36) (Below Threshold)
 PB probs just stick to writing, guys, and not design or bike design. Whoaaaaaa :/
  • 5 0
 @f*ckingsteve: you had me at "f*ckingsteve"
  • 3 0
 @WasatchEnduro: Depends on how it's designed and one's mindset. You may have just been more aware of heel rub because you knew you were riding a bike with a 157 rear end because Knolly's 157 design is only 1.5mm wider than their previous 142 spacing (non-boost) and tends to be about the same as most Boost bikes.

An overlay of their rear ends is available here - www.knollybikes.com/engineering
  • 2 0
 Thanks Dr. Malcolm!
  • 1 0
 @BryceBorlick: Why not IN the top tube....
  • 4 7
 I find it hilarious how they basically made a slacker Pole Machine with a steeper seat tube. Kinda makes you think where they can literally make any bike and they basically settle on what Pole is doing.
  • 10 0
 @CantQuitCartel: It’ll be a huck to broken steerer tube test.
  • 2 0
 You could put this comment on about 90% of the articles on here and it'd be relevant.
  • 1 0
 i would have gone for a front travel of 220mm
  • 12 0
 Sick bicycles called, again. They want 'their' frame back.
  • 1 7
flag ClarkHoward (Jan 13, 2020 at 14:48) (Below Threshold)
 that head tube angle is so stupid...
  • 5 0
 I wonder how many people picked up on the origin of this iconic quote?

In any case...

“I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could...”
  • 2 0
 @Ttimer: “The lack of humility before nature that's being displayed here, uh... staggers me.”
  • 1 0
 @watchmen: , Bravo!!!! (to what you said there)
  • 1 0
 @phops: breaking, or the geo?
  • 1 0
 @WasatchEnduro: Yes, I'm afraid my heels are going rub right through my Jeffsy seat stays. I had to find the narrowest shoes possible and shim out my pedals the max possible amount to pedal at all. I still love it, however.
  • 4 0
 @watchmen: is this from Topgear ?-this brilliant video /idea reminded me of topgear
  • 6 0
 @g123: its going to need a linkage fork to even work at that head angle anyways...
  • 3 1
 That is one big pile of sh*t.
  • 3 0
 Do not see any scientists or even any engineering gone in to this, but interesting all the same?
  • 2 0
 @islandforlife: Yes but would still need to mess with 157mm a bit to make flanges a bit wider, plus can make more money from new standard, so why not screw everyone over at the same time!
  • 2 1
 @Grosey: Geo. Fun fact, the previous gen Specialized Enduro used to break rear triangles in production models, but I guess everyone forgot about that.
  • 1 0
 @phops: Wonder how long before that fun fact will be removed for history?
  • 2 0
 @watchmen: Love it! Pushing design boundaries.
  • 1 0
 @flyingpig1998: There is pushing it, then there is going toooooooooooo far!
  • 2 0
 @watchmen: Wouldn't say any better,
Insane!!!
  • 2 0
 I would , Waki what have you've done!!!
  • 1 0
 @islandforlife: CVT cranksets are the future. As well as electronically
controlled brakes. All on some sort of paper mache frames that are biodegradable, lighter than carbon fiber and stronger than steel.
  • 1 0
 @islandforlife: The man said he was on a Fugi LT so yea, narrowest 157 spacing there is.
  • 1 0
 @pperini: it's 1x8 EX-1 sram
  • 1 0
 @duzzi: Did not know Mike was a closet lowrider
  • 1 0
 If they didn't do it, someone else would have...
  • 1 0
 @jaame: That's because Genio were the factory that assembled the V1.0 Revo and then didn't want to sort out the squat and pivot-points, so Corsair took it elsewhere. The problem with that though, is because the original design was a Co-Lab, both Corsair and Genio had some rights to it, plus, bing the Far East, the term "Intellectual Property" seemingly doesn't directly translate from either side, so the V2.0 Revo exists from, I think, Alu-Mate or Alu-Mega and the V1.0 now lives on as an open-mold frame in Genios catalogue. It is sold in the V1.0 form as an Oryx in Bulgaria.... and probably elsewhere called something else... However, all things aside, the basis of the GF-1-160 is actually a very good riding frame and Genio are a respected frame-builder for good reason. Mega Kudos as always to @WAKIdesigns for being, well... Waki. Never stop! And Caps tipped to the beer-makers that fuelled the decision at PinkBike to actually go and do this! This is frankly awesome!
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: or narrow hips. I’ve got small feet and such but honestly even normal road bike qfactors feel weird. I’m slightly duck footed with very narrow hips. Scraping heels on cranks and chain stays is my specialty.
  • 1 0
 @jordanaustino: Looking through crowds while out on the town, it would appear most people are slightly duck-footed. As an I. I don’t have huge feet but even at a size 11.5 in Five Tens, my old ‘14 Enduro (non-Boost) I sold last year had a shiny streak on the chain stay from my heel rubbing it over the years.
  • 1 0
 @WasatchEnduro: I use pedal extenders. Would that be a problem?
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Pedal extenders. Simple, inexpensive and effective--for me anyway.
  • 1 0
 Is it too hard to design hubs 170mm wide with 31 inch wheels? Smh...
  • 1 0
 @rudiesue: Too much and I might feel like I’m riding a horse.
  • 247 1
 Looks about as playful as a wet cat.
  • 106 2
 Like most others, I'm sick of hearing the words supple, poppy and playful in reviews. Except today. "Playful as a wet cat". I want this to appear in an actual review.
  • 2 0
 Ride Vassago much?
  • 25 0
 There’s a sex joke in here somewhere.
  • 12 60
flag phops (Jan 13, 2020 at 13:06) (Below Threshold)
 Playful is not a thing in the bike world. You either have the skill and fitness to throw a bike around, or you don't.
  • 41 2
 Well from my experience wet cats are much more fun than dry ones.... ill let my self out
  • 15 0
 @nismo325: with that joke. I’m surprised you got let in hahaha
  • 10 0
 Have you ever seen a wet cat? Very very fast.
  • 1 0
 @phops: you forgot most Mtbs are giant squishy slugs
  • 5 0
 19 spots still left for next decade
  • 1 2
 @mkotowski1: My point still applies. Get fitter if you wanna throw a squishy slug around. Sam Pilgrim whips around a FS 50 lb ebike without issues.
  • 1 0
 @phops: Yes should let Sam Pilgrim thrash test it
  • 170 0
 Who thought it would be a good idea to let Levy off of the leash?
  • 3 2
 You've made my day. Thank you.
  • 8 0
 Now dad has left home (RC) levy just wants to party
  • 156 0
 Looks like a pole
  • 45 2
 Xc stays ?
  • 4 0
 Look like a Pole Evolink price crash
  • 13 3
 Except it ain't broke
  • 9 0
 @fraserw: Oh give it a few days
  • 2 0
 Like a @wakidesigns straight away... Feel sorry for the guy is not getting enough credit here for his visionary madness...
  • 12 2
 @PauRexs: why? It says waki under the drawing. Frankly, being a part of that gig is heart warming enough Wink
  • 2 0
 That's what she said.
  • 2 1
 @WAKIdesigns: man you know.. PB should honor more their own kids... I mean Rojo,Bareli, weagle... All cool people from the industry... But if someone has been here from the beginning catalysing and pushing this thing to madness into the most original wayy... it's YOU. So yes you should had appear in this vid if they wanted to make justice.
Don't let others underestimate you and give you the credit you deserve. This trolling keyboard warrior thing shouldn't take away recognition if the talent is there... Too small mediocre world for great minds.
I hope at least they paid you s good bill for the great drawing.
  • 2 2
 @PauRexs: I appreciate what you wrote. But I am really chill about it. Me getting in there would be like Barnard Kerr getting into SX Final Big Grin It was awkward enough for me to be in "One Question" articles Smile It would be a different story if doing graphics was my main source of income.
  • 125 1
 50/50 chance the first case of a 40 foot double and that headtube shears right off.
  • 36 0
 "That shits a one way ticket to snap city man!"
  • 36 0
 Thing looks like it already cased that and bent out instead of breaking.
  • 2 0
 @NorCalNomad: Came here to make this comment.
  • 10 0
 lets be honest, almost 100% chance lol
  • 3 1
 Forks manufacturers shouldn't warrant their products if mounted on that thing...
  • 13 0
 I'll beat the armchair engineers to it: It wont shear - it will fail due to bending normal stress.
  • 1 0
 I say it snaps after hitting an X factor ramp
  • 3 0
 and/or the stanchions fold
  • 8 0
 My first thought was that bike needs a Trust fork. A DH double crown fork sized down may handle the stress on the stanchions but just transmit it to the head tube. As we get slacker and slacker bikes, I think we are going to see DW’s brilliance in investing R and D into linkage forks.
  • 1 0
 @whambat: i too was curious about that.
  • 115 0
 Will this be the first bike to not “climb like a goat”?
  • 9 1
 Yep, more like goat yoga with all that stretched out geo.
  • 3 18
flag NorCalNomad (Jan 13, 2020 at 8:12) (Below Threshold)
 nah that HA guarantees it to be poop at climbing
  • 9 2
 @noapathy: 83 degree seat angle makes it feel like a small (as they mention)... shortens the cockpit a lot while seated, not stretched out at all. Common misconception about the big long bikes with steep seat angles. The stretching doesn't happen until you stand up on the pedals.
  • 5 1
 @islandforlife: The wheelbase of over 1400mm (nearly 100mm longer than a YT Tues size extra-long, for example), says that it might climb a fireroad - but probably is not going to be manageable on anything resembling an uphill singletrack...
  • 6 0
 @pinhead907: Oh ya, I'm not saying it'll be an awesome bike... it's probably going to suck in many situations, but like you say, will probably be fine for fire road climbs.

Although... One review I read recently of one of the Pole bikes mentioned the reach was too long for what they wanted so they sized down... but because the seat angle is so steep, sizing down meant the climbing position felt too cramp like they were hitting knees while seated on tighter corners.

I'm all for steep STA and slack HTA, but there's obviously a line and it's definitely a fine balance to getting it all right.
  • 8 0
 Impossible to go OTB with this frame.
  • 3 1
 @islandforlife: So a long wheelbase isn't stretched out then? Neato.
  • 13 0
 @tacklingdummy: hold my donut.
  • 2 0
 It will do better than a goat. Make it point the top. Half turn around the front wheel. Half turn around the rear wheel. you're at the top of that mountain, no effort!
  • 4 3
 @noapathy: No in fact... the reach isn't all that long and have a look at the top tube length, it's 64mm shorter than the large bike I'm riding right now. That is, again, because of the 83 degree STA. So yes, the overall proportions of the bike may seem stretched because of the long wheelbase, but that long wheelbase is simply a result of a super duper slack HTA and long chain stays. Long chain stays and slack HTA's don't stretch you out on a bike... long reach and top tubes do... this bike doesn't have those. So, the cockpit position while standing will actually feel pretty normal and while seated, it will feel cramped... that's a really short top tube.

But now put all that on top of a long, long wheelbase... and it's going to feel weird... I don't know, it will be interesting to hear.
  • 3 2
 With that main pivot location it will bob like a mf
  • 1 0
 @pinhead907: if you’re about 165cm this bike will actually feel super stable on fireroad climbs. Too bad they couldnt make it 50cm longer and with slightly longer chainstays for an average L.
  • 3 0
 @islandforlife: I see your point, but your definition of stretched and mine aren't matching, and that's OK. You're thinking riding position and I'm just looking at the overall length. Numbers not necessary - I can look at the diagram.

And yes, given the chance I'd still try it out. I'm sure there's something to be learned even if it's how far is too far.
  • 1 0
 I’d say more like a drunken kangaroo
  • 90 1
 It's only Jan. 13, but PB just made the best content of 2020. This is what I wanted so badly from the last time they went to Taiwan.
  • 6 0
 well considering the Taipei bike show was in March last year, its taken them nearly a year to make this video
  • 6 0
 @philip9175: I’m glad they waited. It’s nice to have some decent content in January.
  • 80 2
 No bottle cage,do people in 2030 not drink??
  • 45 2
 They osmose water vapor directly from the atmosphere.
  • 32 20
 People in 2030 have apparently rediscovered that less weight on your bike is good and there use to be fabric containers that went on your back or hips to carry items....
  • 13 5
 @NorCalNomad: and those same people forget there's also an additional 80kg on the bike called the rider but don't forget the weigh the little bottle of water
  • 8 8
 @Chilliwacker: That's an additional 1kg that just makes your bike ride worse.
  • 6 2
 That’s not how osmosis works Frown @Connerv6:
  • 2 2
 @NorCalNomad: If you mean better, then yes.
  • 2 1
 @Mondbiker : Jakub Gabris please explain to me how making your trail bike heavier makes it ride better.
  • 9 1
 They have come to their senses and let bidons be bygones.
  • 1 2
 @NorCalNomad: Sprung to unsprung mass, simple. That is unless you drink all the water on the climb lol, better to strap tools/spares to the frame for this reason.
  • 11 0
 They'll drink Brawndo! It's got what plants crave!
  • 4 3
 @NorCalNomad: Yeah, I'm not a fan of putting more weight on my bike that I spend a lot of money trying to make lighter. I think you are faster with the weight on your body rather than on your bike.

I want to see a PinkBike experiment that tests the performance difference between climbing with a lighter bike (no water bottles) and water on the body versus the heavier bike (with water bottles) and less weight on the body. I think the lighter bike and carrying water on body wins with less watts and faster times climbing.
  • 4 0
 @tacklingdummy: No one who is actually paid to be good at climbing mountains on a bike would willingly wear a backpack if there was the possibility of re-filling bottles on a given route. Heat retention is a thing when you’re actually giving it some gas.
  • 5 0
 @mtbikemccoy: electrolytes!!
  • 1 1
 @LeDuke: That debate is why there should be a PinkBike test for it. I think the weight on the bike outweighs the heat element in sapping performance. If you are working much harder climbing, you heat up more.

Also, the better shape you are in, the better you can handle the heat.
  • 2 0
 @NorCalNomad: getting rid of the pack was just to get out on the trail faster without having to grab anything extra. For many of us, our usual rides are short enough that we just need to grab the bottle and a helmet and we’re off.
  • 1 1
 @tacklingdummy: I'm still propelling the weight up the hill. My overall effort to achieve a given w/kg stays the same, regardless of where the weight is. But, one is on my bike, not trapping heat, and the other is on my back, trapping heat. I'll take the former, every time.
  • 1 0
 Potable water is so 2020. I imagine we'll be eating our hydration by 2030.
  • 1 0
 @mtbikemccoy: does anyone here actually know what electrolytes are?
  • 1 0
 @LeDuke: where it actually does matter is on the rear wheel itself. More unsprung weight reduces the performance of the rear suspension.
  • 2 0
 Yeah but nobody is talking about mounting a bottle cage to your rear wheel
  • 4 0
 @MonsterTruck: They're what plants crave!
  • 1 0
 There will be shorts, with integrated hydration tubes, used to recycle your own sweat. One of the big benefits is that there would be a lower net loss of sodium.
  • 76 0
 Hans.... get ze flammenwerfer
  • 32 6
 We read same books, Let's be friends
  • 8 3
 @WAKIdesigns: Levy has a very similar sketching style to you!
  • 2 0
 @jimoxbox: yeah i could have swore they were waki's
  • 93 7
 I have only given form to the vision of the brilliantly enlightened Grand Master. It was the best brief I have ever received for any project I have ever done, possibly once in a lifetime: "Waki, we need someone who can draw a really stupid bike"

We are all children of the Great Donut. I wish to thank Pinkbike for this opportunity and the response at the Taipei show seems like I achieved the goal 10/10 Big Grin
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I’d buy your bike Waki! That virtual high pivot is a great idea
  • 6 5
 @cuban-b: I may have drawn a high pivot but HPV is on them...
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Haha! Perfect man for the job! I can't wait to see if the fork even works.
  • 3 2
 @WAKIdesigns: I mean, people already make HPH (high pivot horst) link frames, so this seems like a no-brainer. put a gearbox and an e-bike motor on there and that's surely a bike from 2030.
  • 5 4
 @cuban-b: I drew one with gearbox but that would sacrifice one water bottle. I call BS on the guy having issues with the downtube. Ekhem... All new Yetis?
  • 7 1
 @WAKIdesigns: such a pinkbike specific dilemma: gearbox or one less water bottle?! decisions decisions!
  • 13 0
 @cuban-b: I've seen the words "water bottle" more than any other on this site, including "what", "the" and "f*uck", to the point where I now think water bottles could save this planet.
How this vessel of plastic now owns the bike industry is mental.
  • 2 1
 @BenPea: Its either dehydration or go back to 2003 & wear a sweaty backpack with a plastic tube coming out of it. Neither sound like a good time to me.
  • 1 0
 @cuban-b: Not sure you can easily add a high pivot with a VPP. You can buy Linkage (25$) it's a very interesting software to understand bike kinematic a bit more and how the slightest change of a pivot affects the whole thing.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: how has no one caught on to this?!?
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Could I get 10 of these Linkie bikes for my breeding program?
www.pinkbike.com/photo/17994253
  • 69 1
 press fit bottom brackets in 2030?

I hate you pinkbike
  • 14 0
 I came here to complain it’s not threaded bb hahaha
  • 50 1
 Looks like a 2030 Session
  • 4 1
 Actually...the rear suspension resembles the 2006 Trek Session 10.
  • 46 0
 3 water bottles is just silly

surely specialized will integrate a bladder into the frame; Tactical Water Access in Top Tube (T.W.A.T.T.)
  • 12 0
 Maybe up through the seat tube? Drinking water and mobile trail bidet in one!
  • 4 0
 Specialized Shiv does have an integrated water bladder in the top tube. Its been around a while but i hope they rename it T.W.A.T.T.
www.specialized.com/us/en/shiv-fuelselage-hydration-system/p/155590
  • 6 0
 Maybe give riders a choice between T.W.A.T.T and a new seat tube integrated water and feeding via Anal Supply System or A.S.S
  • 3 0
 @salespunk: you can actually absorb water via enema.... doesn’t have to be fresh then either.
  • 41 2
 With a few beers, it might not look too bad.
  • 1 0
 You'll regret it in the morning though Wink
  • 3 0
 @Mattin: In that case just sleep till noon, cause you're a problem solver.
  • 29 0
 So bikes from the future still use pressfit BBs?
  • 9 0
 By then we will be 3 standards past anything on the market now
  • 7 0
 @hamncheez: Back to threaded BSA > smaller dia pressfit because reasons > back to threaded BSA > bigger dia pressfit because smaller was stupid > back to threaded BSA > medium sized pressfit, slightly bigger than DUB
  • 8 0
 @nouseforaname: 0.01mm bigger than DUB.
  • 8 0
 36mm Italian threaded on the drive side, PF92 on the other.
  • 3 0
 One side is PF92, the other side is BB30.
  • 1 0
 45mm threaded standard will only appear in 2032. 2030 will be pressfit.
  • 29 0
 Oh man, cant wait to see the test ride. Huck to flat please!
  • 9 0
 The fork does not move while the wrists of the tester fails...
  • 27 1
 Chris Porter is designing a new bike frantically.
  • 3 1
 Preparing a blog post say "see we told you!" triumphally pointing out that they were right all along. Though this doesn't have a dual crown fork, showing just how far ahead CP is.
  • 4 0
 I’d be shocked if Chris Porter hasn’t ridden something very similar to this already.

This is from Bike Radar in 2015:

A note on Chris Porter’s bike

Following years of experimentation and trial by stopwatch, Chris has arrived at a truly radical geometry configuration. With a head angle as slack as 59 degrees (although usually a slightly more conventional 61), and an offset of just 30mm, Chris has a monstrous trail figure. With numbers like these, you could almost call it ridiculous.
  • 20 0
 "Sure, we could have pulled a Tesla and pre-sold some bikes to pay for building them, but we’re too irresponsible to have that hanging over our heads"

...that didn't stop Sick Bikes
  • 1 0
 No but the shit storm seems to have ????
  • 9 9
 @inked-up-metalhead: Sick would have pulled it off, if they kept their shit together after the initial success. But instead they pressed on full gas. They were selling swag, frames and kept designing full suspension bikes, no amount of cocaine and amphetamine would suffice to manage that. On top of it two lead players had small kids. Good fricking luck. All the time, I was thinking, how do they manage all that? Well, they didn’t
  • 5 0
 @WAKIdesigns: that's way more credit that I give them.
  • 6 0
 @WAKIdesigns: that, and they were shit at running a business, potentially criminally so...
  • 4 4
 @tomhoward379: I just said they were shit at running a business Smile
  • 5 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I think that should read ‘on top of that the two lead players had the brains of small kids’....
  • 5 0
 Hang on a second, isn’t Calvin the supplier in Taiwan that Sick left high and dry, and On-One/PX then came in and bought the unpaid for stock? You’d think he’d be a bit more wary of a tattooed chap wanting a super slack frame, despite not yet having a customer base...
  • 23 0
 should start taking pre-orders and never send them out...it would be SICK!
  • 20 1
 So excited to see how poorly this actually rides!

Seriously, I think we are reaching the point at which we have proper MTB geo is being achieved with bikes like the Pole/Geometron/SJ Evo (yes I know I put Specialized with the other two). Large reach 480-500 mm, HA 62-64, SA 76-78.
  • 4 0
 Cough Fuji Auric cough
  • 2 0
 @nhp890: Not really in the same league with less than ideal F/R weight distribution. Specialized successfully used what other small manufacturers tested before. What a shock lol.
  • 5 5
 @Mondbiker: Pole Machine has 34/66% weight distribution in large like S4 Enduro 2020. E29 2019, Trek Slash 2020 in large 35/65. The older bikes you get then by average the more even the distribution. Remedy 29 2015 Large, staggering 38/62%.
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Yes and that is pretty good, auric has ridiculously short cs which doesn´t play with long front center nicely. I guess they were trying to please everyone. Too bad, it´s one of more interesting bikes from 2019.
  • 2 0
 @Mondbiker: it honestly doesn't bug me at all, but mine is a medium. Maybe it's more of an issue in the bigger sizes, as the disproportion grows larger
  • 2 2
 @nhp890: Well it absolutely matters what frame size you are riding, sure. I don´t know why they wouldn´t adjust CS lenght on alu frame, on carbon one I get it, but I don´t think it would be that much more expensive to do on alu frame. No excuses for (most) carbon frames not having adjustable dropouts though.
  • 2 0
 Yeah, how does it ride! Hot lap time!
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Where does your numbers come from? They seem off.
  • 2 5
 @faul: Hah their own websites? I just checked them before I wrote them. Not doing it again. Help yourself
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: You can see weight distribution on any website?
Are you comparing front center to rear center or something? If yes, it's not how weight distribution works. at all.
  • 4 8
flag WAKIdesigns (Jan 13, 2020 at 13:12) (Below Threshold)
 @faul: CS length/ Wheelbase... please...
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: that makes the assumption that 100% of your weight is on the pedals, which it would only be if you're standing up and don't have your hands on the bars.
  • 5 3
 @Socket: that is the only definite measure of weight distribution of a rider over the bike, just like there is only one angle that makes two lines perpendicular to each other. Also known as neutral riding position. Nobody will create measure taking into account Joe riding neutral, Martha hanging off the bars or Xi Yong pushing on bars. None of them does for more than a split second during their ride. Also this weight distribution will change depending on pitch of the terrain the bike stands on. Oh stands... So next time some woke as fuk tall dude tells you about the factor of weight distribution on his woke as fuk bike, tell him to get laid. All these geo gurus have never said a single word on body mechanics of handling a bike, because they have no bloody idea about it, they are tall folks who up to only few years ago used to not have anything to ride that would fit them and now they are having their salad years.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I'd agree that it's the most convenient/consistent way to estimate it, but Vorsprung covered why that's not the most useful way to understand weight distribution in one of their videos. Starting with desired weight distribution at the wheels (since the rider moves around to load the front/rear wheel as necessary) and working backwards to find the necessary body position and internal load to achieve it (with a given bike geometry) gives a more thorough understanding of bike handling than using BB location within the wheelbase to estimate a solely static number based on the assumption that the hands or saddle are not loaded at all.
  • 2 2
 @Socket: absolutely, you can also look at it from the perspective of dynamic geometry and more disproportion between front/ rear wheel travel there is the more the weight distribution will change. Unless it’s an upforked bike Smile After all we also run different sag front and rear. But it’s still a modification of the initial layout.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: stop there
Weight distribution between wheels is around 50/50, and it doesn't change much except if you're pedaling seated uphill, or braking. Even in super steep downhill, if you don't brake, you are close to 50/50.
Or, you are not a rider, but a passenger of an autopilot e-bike.
Geometry will dictate how easy it is to keep those 50/50, and how much there is in your hands/feet/ass. But at the wheels, nothing.

Oh, I forgot. There is riders who don't ride 50/50. You can see them each Friday on pinkbike's youtube channel.
  • 3 2
 @faul: absolutely Most of your weight goes into the bike through the bottom bracket and that point where force is applied dictates weight distribution between both wheels. It’s ridiculous to think base weight distribution is 50/50. It isn’t. That is why we puncture rear wheels all the time, not the front ones despite having more pressure in the rear. If you want to go into weight distribution Analysis depending on terrain pitch angle you may as well start interpreting Koran. You will never settle any argument. If only for the fact that different people ride bikes differently. Beginners further back, the more proficient the more centered. And more active. Which brings us to how suspension behaves. Based mostly on riders input. Moving around, braking.

Can we please stop talking about some ridiculous nerdy stuff that does not make anybody faster, at least on the level of people who bother commenting on Pinkbike? The sole point of my initial answer was that weight distribution is some esoteric factor only a company basing their marketing on geometry can find valuable. Read Nicolai, Pole and R.i.P. Sick. Saying Pole has good weight distribution is Nothing more but some fanboism of folks who desperately try to shine in a group chat, like a teenager hanging out with buddies and saying that weed is crap, you guys need to smoke real hash from Afghanistan.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Are you sure rear wheel punctures are caused by weight distribution only? I think it´s only part of it and perhaps smaller part than having, slacker HA angle than rear axle path, legs stronger than arms for example. It´s not too hard to measure approx. weight bias with 2 bathroom scales if you have them, I would but I don´t even have one lol.
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns:
"most of your weight..." Yeah and there is a tower in Italy that is mostly vertical, and it made it known all over the world. Please think with center of gravity, leverage, free body diagram... you won't see the 50/50 distribution easily but you'll at least understand physics behind. Putting an angle there don't make it really harder. Measuring it is the same.
What punctures rear tires and damage rear wheels isn't related to weight distribution. It's due to leverage, accelerations, and stiffness of your legs VS arms.
Beginner's weight distribution isn't far off. Except if they release the brake not moving, do a magnificent no foot superman to no teeth faceplant and end up on friday fails.

Sorry for "nerdy stuff". You summoned me with the "faul's ritual"
- going on a nerdy website
- showing false number coming from nowhere as a somewhat technical theory.
- being super confident about it.
Weight distribution is one of the important factor in the equations of self-stability for any bike. I don't see the issue basing your marketing on it. It's way more relevant than coil vs air or worse, "high speed adjustment knobs '
  • 21 0
 Won't the fork bind at such a steep HTA?
  • 80 0
 Not in the future Wink
  • 93 1
 Shoulda used a Trust Shout. Non-binding fork of the future is already here.
  • 4 1
 @ninjatarian: thas w'im sayn
  • 17 0
 Awesome at ramming roots and rocks. We won't talk about huck to flat. Let's just call it grim.
  • 17 0
 Obviously it needs a linkage fork. I have it on good authority that Girvin Vectors are making a comeback in 2024.
  • 12 0
 Not if the terrain is steep enough. #DoYouEvenWhistlerBro?
  • 2 0
 @ninjatarian: that and a rear suspension that’s just as futuristic, extend rearward path, just melt away the bumps
  • 4 0
 They probably should get their hands on one of those Fox 38's, shouldn't they?
  • 11 0
 @vikb: parking lot huck to flat test time
  • 4 0
 It's only meant to be ridden straight up or straight down.
  • 10 0
 In the future, all trails are as steep as Brendog's rampage run.
  • 14 1
 They forgot a decade ago when Barrel said that in Mondraker testing the fork stopped working at 61 degrees.
  • 9 0
 @jclnv: Fabien won with 59 degree head angle in Maribor. Sub 62 deg head angle is where bushing wear becomes issue if you don´t take care of your forks, SC that is, according to people who actually test this stuff rather than talk out their arse.
  • 4 3
 @Mondbiker: Oh right I didn’t realize this was a DH bike. I thought it was going to be used on low angle trails? I don’t think Barrel said bushing wear, I think he said bushing bind. You know, there the fork doesn’t work anymore and totally negates the geometry benefit.
  • 3 5
 @Mondbiker: you must not be a fan of Cesar Rojo then...
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Not sure why is that waki? For going back to shorter bikes? He can do whatever he wants to, he did pretty good job with forward geometry so he will always be one of the most important guys in the history for me.
  • 3 0
 So in the future when HTA are all less than 60 degrees, will be finally get mainstream dual crown enduro forks that don't weigh over 5 pounds? Although to prevent binding they might all have to be cannondales....
  • 1 0
 @jclnv: You brought up downhiller, not me.
  • 6 0
 @hamncheez: No need to go ful cannondale, just not use magnesium lowers for start, then you can use sliding bushings instead of fixed ones. But when I see how weight obsession is still the main theme in every new bike release here, I´m not too optimistic.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez If you wanted to, you could have been running a light DC fork for years. Want your fringe interest to become mainstream? Put your money where your mouth is and just buy a Bartlett.

@Mondbiker And/or one without magnesium lowers. It's available. Wouldn' t even be heavy. But it is obv far easier to rant about "weight weenies"....
  • 3 0
 @Ttimer: show me?
  • 3 5
 @Mondbiker: except if you listened to podcasts with him, he is against anything beyond Mondrakers and said that Fabiens bike was an experiment that turned out to be a step too far. Hence “old fashioned” geos of Unnos.
  • 5 1
 @WAKIdesigns: As far as I remember he said forward geometry was designed around 10mm stem at first, when they moved on to 30mm one they haven´t adjusted back. He also said long bikes were good for speed in that very interview. And I´m sorry man, but no racer is going to be sceptical about winning recipe, that´s why it took DH bikes 30years to have decent wheelbase and HA. Prejudges are a bitch. If you want to refresh your memory of what fabien raced, feel free, it´s pretty good article actually www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike-fabien-barels-mondraker-summum-pro-team
  • 3 0
 What about 110mm travel frame and dual crown 120mm 40s at front? ...after all looks like short travel stuf has a bright future ahed of it heheh
  • 2 2
 @Ttimer: Show me a Bartlett for sale in the pinkbike classifieds for a reasonable price. Its way easy to find an OEM 170mm 29er lyric or 36 for $600 or less.

*Trigger warning- going to talk about weight

A Boxxer 29er is lighter than a Bartlett, and I'm guessing going to perform better.

Seriously tho, for a dual crown enduro fork to be widely accepted its going to have to weigh under 5 pounds. I don't think it would be hard to make. The top crown could have a dramatic rise to it (like the old Marzzochis) so each leg isn't that much longer than a single crown, and with the two crowns being significantly lighter and thinner, you can get a lot stiffer with little weight penalty.
  • 6 0
 Theoretically a lefty would be perfect for the application because of the needle bearings in the fork and zero offset!
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: you want to go back to the days of smacking the top tube with massive drop crowns like old rs boxxer? I remember every other dh bike from early- mid 2000s had dings in the frame because of those things.
  • 4 1
 @Mondbiker: Intend Infinity. Not cheap, but consider it the early adopter premium for the new generation of DC enduro forks.

@hamncheez Is that your metric? You expect to find the "future new hot thing in enduro" at bargain prices in the classifieds? That is not how that whole "product" thing works.
  • 1 0
 @Ttimer: it was mondbiker who brought up buying a current . DC enduro fork, not me
  • 2 0
 @zyoungson: I wasn't aware that was an issue... maybe my old Azonic DH bike that weighted 48 pounds had such thick tubing and so many gussets that my 888 couldn't dent it!
  • 1 0
 @Ttimer: No USD forks perhaps ever were using magnesium outer tubes, it doesn´t matter that intend is using alu if they don´t use sliding bushings as I mentioned. I could buy 2 dorados instead and have stiffer fork with better damper, more tunable air spring and with stanchion protectors too. I´m actually quite disappointed Cornelius overlooked this possibility. So far I know of only CRC using sliding bushings, if BOS is using them in Obsys, I don´t know, maybe they are but with 220mm travel and typical BOS customer service I don´t know if I would want to risk modifying it. SO no, so far there isn´t perfect option out there, Dorado is the closest imo and if rumors are true, they should be even closer with next iteration.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: what exactly is a sliding bushing? Can you provide a link?
  • 2 1
 A thing that I don’t get is, I know at least 2 custom frame makers who can make geometrically perfect full suspension frame, both of them under 3000€. I just wonder what would be wrong then? Antisquat curve? Anti rise? Ehy not get EXT Storia and a Lefty 160 or Trust Shout? Would it be gearbox? I am not sure what they are waiting for. They could just build this bike which will be the best bike in the world and be done with it.

Here’s another idea, why don’t we get the shortest bike like a DJ and hit pumptracks, dirt jumps and learn toove on the bike? Oh you don’t have any of tgat? Why don’t you hit the shovel? Because more often than not, people who grab the shovel and a DJ or BMX tend to pass people with interests like geometry, Kinematics, data acquisition... i don’t know, just a thought
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: Slide bushing would greatly increase the price and chance of a fk up in a mass produced market fork. RS still has problems with their regulaar bushing tolerances involving only one sliding surface. Possibly would cost 500$ more to get such fork. Sure would be sweet to own one that works well.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I´m not economist, but it doesn´t make any sense to me. How is it possible for manufacturer that sells less forks in a year than FOX/RS in a day to make profit then? He was selling last year model for sub 800euro before christmas. At full price they are cheaper than frickin Grip2 36 in Europe, the one with unresolved creaking crown issues and nothing special inside for damper of air spring. It´s not that it would have to be more expensive than the forks they produce, but it would be as people are obviously willing to pay crazy money for piece of junk because it comes in orange. To keep their profits the same, they would cost 2000euro no doubt, and some people would still buy it 100%, if they are going to spend 1400 for Taiwan made mass produced crap with tolerance issues and negative air chamber full of grease they might as well fork out few hundreds more to get good working product.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: Haha, that gif explains it better than anything else.

What shock manufacturer for mountain bikes is making sliding bushings? Are they used in moto?

The issue I see with them is weight and cost- two race-surfaces (is race the right term for the surface a bushing slides against?).
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: Shock as a shock or you mean fork? Shocks use static bushing in a seal head and sliding ring around piston. Only bike fork I know of that uses sliding bushing is the one I posted, weight of 160mm enduro fork is less (approx 2200g) than Z1 coil launched few days ago or pretty much any other coil converted enduro fork out there, and it uses open bath damper as well with lot of oil adding weight too. Motorbikes use them, yes.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: Fork, I mean.

The one you posted is just a link to an image; whats the link to the product?
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: just google crconception Wink
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: I did! Looks like it has great potential. $1500 USD tho, when I can find used lyriks or 36s for a third of that is hard, plus service/support might be hard over here in the States
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: They should cost 1/3 of the price brand new, not used in the first place. As I mentioned, 36s cost more in Europe than extremely rare and boutique part made/assembled in France. And there isn´t much if anything you couldn´t service at home with minimum tools on those forks.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: so as an ignorant american, why is a 36 so much? Here, a 2020 36 GRIP2 is just over $1000 USD. Is it the VAT, import taxes, etc
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: I don´t think it has anything to do with taxes (well, maybe a little), rather weird price politics from fox. from what I have read not that long ago situation in US is reversed to europe when it comes to RS/FOX prices. I believe Lyrik in US is or used to be the same or even slighly more expensive as 36 in the US, it´s not unusual to buy Lyrik ultimate here for close to half price. Like here r2-bike.com/ROCK-SHOX-Suspension-Fork-275-650B-LYRIK-Ultimate-Charger-21-RC2-DebonAir-SA-170-mm-BOOST-tapered-black-37-mm-Offset. Yes it´s with discount but even not discounted versions are 747euro. On the other hand r2-bike.com/FOX-Suspension-Fork-2020-275-Float-36-F-S-160-GRIP2-Factory-Boost-matte-black-15x110-mm-tapered-44-mm-Offset and that is the cheapest 2020 fork I have found.
  • 2 0
 @Mondbiker: it looks good but I thought you meant that they should use std forks with sliding bushings. Yeah it’s easier to do in USD, but hell, no way to buy a single crown UsD fork... I don’t like too stiff things, but flex on this is waaaay too much.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I most likely wouldn´t buy SC one either, at least not without trying it first, but same goes for DC, rightsideup forks all use magnesium lowers and therefore cannot use them, why is it so important to make magnesium lowers other than saving I don´t know what, 100g compared to 7 series alu? Or you cannot cast it from alu? Trickstuff forks looks machined so that would not be cheap, but if casting it is possible which I believe it is, I don´t think this is cost related issue because we all know how much spare lowers cost, more than CSU made out of you know what. And for even weirder reason even other USD forks don´t use sliding bushings even though the do use suitable material for outer tubes. If BOS obsys does I wouldn´t be surprised but I haven´t found any details about the fork and I highly doubt I will ever see it out in the wild.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: I wonder how hard, expensive, heavy it would be to put aluminum sleeves in a magnesium lower. Nothing structural, just thick enough for a bushing to slide against.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: I don´t see that working without designing fork around them from the scratch and it would be most def cheaper to do it that way too.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: Yes, I meant a purpose built, normal side up fork with sliding bushings.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: If that´s the case then ditch the magnesium, anything that has to be precise press fit is only going to cause issues as we all know how loose tolerances are accepted as just fine in MTB. Trickstuff fork prototype seems to be using alu lower legs, what is the reason behind it I don´t know, there isn´t too many information available so far.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: Seems to me with existing tooling and engineering experience, it would be easier/faster to just get SR Suntour (or whatever the company is that makes most of the fork lowers for the big boys) to make you a custom magnesium lower, or even just take an existing lower and machine out a little space for an aluminum insert.
  • 18 0
 With a head angle like that, you might think he's Obtuse.
  • 2 0
 In CASE you want to rip the head tube off when you come up short on a jump and the bike park.
  • 18 1
 BOOBIES!!!!
  • 10 0
 8008135
  • 1 3
 Double-fisting
  • 1 0
 This guy^^^ must be a mathematician!!
  • 15 0
 “It’s a chopper, baby.” Who’s chopper is it? “Zed’s” Who’s Zed? “Zed’s dead, baby, Zed’s dead.”
  • 3 1
 uhhh,.... Who let the gimp out.
  • 15 0
 High Pivot Virtual? I already have HPV...
  • 9 0
 The downhill bike will be called Hep C
  • 10 0
 Love this concept ( the concept, the video series, not the bike )

Being in product design, it’s great to push the limits in order to understand the boundaries. Also great to consider everything as a prototype. That old adage of Fail often, fail early may apply here, but I love it.

So a few thing come to mind here. #1 dynamic seat tube angles. Right ? Based on active variables such as terrain slope , input wattage, speed, etc. Could also marry that to head angle. A few bikes kinda do this , but the integration of all these things is something taj can visualize perhaps.

Funny though, aside from the ridiculous head angle ( what have mx bikes settled on for everyday riding ??? Hmmm) the rest of the bike isn’t that far fetched.

Look forward to video #2.
  • 12 0
 Meanwhile at Genio:
"Boss, there is something wrong, we get a lot of spam mails!"
"Just delete it, all Pinkbikers wanting some crazy geometry custom shit"
  • 10 0
 “Special thank to Chris Cocalis at Pivot“?!?!?

Somehow I feel like this will impact the outcome of these shenanigans.

At the very least, it explains the press fit bb.
  • 2 0
 Is he the one we have to blame for Press Fit BBs?
  • 11 0
 This is just an elaborated plot to advertise linkage forks. Remember my words !
  • 9 0
 Well this confirms my thinking that 'The Privateer' should really just be called 'Team Pinkbike' and this will be the teams' bike.
  • 6 0
 As set out early in the video, it's an exercise in extrapolating the changes of the last 10 years as a leap forward to 10 years into the future using the same proportionate changes. Granted it takes a right turn along the way into 'can I get this thing built', but the main thing is: its a JOKE!!! FFS!!! Its pretty well done, enjoy it for what it is.
  • 6 0
 Hey, no wheelsize discussion??

I want to see 36" in 2030 - rolls better over obstacles.
And some new standards, BB and handlebar width etc.bracket/fillineverybikepart/bracket.

Or wait - some standards shown in slomo evolving the next years.
  • 1 2
 Whoever the troll is that convinces the industry to move wheel sizes / change a standard again and discontinue the others will be my hero.
  • 5 4
 @dovbvsh66: with these modern geos, you can easily fit larger wheels into the frame with no drawbacks, at least for short travel bikes or bikes for really tall people. You can fit a 29” wheel into 420 stays, Pole Machine runs 450 stays, it means you can fit a wheel with a full inch larger radius in there. If we use that 29” Pole with 160 fork as a point of reference, you put a wheel that is 2” bigger, cut the fork travel by those 2” and you end up with a 31” XC/ Trail bike with 100mm rear travel and 110mm for travel with no change in geometry. It’s a no brainer.

Then look at constant rise of Gravel, why not make even bigger wheels for gravel bikes?
  • 9 0
 super job on the video.....entertaining way to learn how the bike biz works.
  • 8 3
 Original clunkers had slack head angles, low bottom brackets and long wheelbases. The only thing that wasn’t “modern” was a slack seat angle.

It was consumer stupidity and bike industry shittiness that lead to the horrible 71/73 geometry that prevailed for nearly 20 years. Consumers didn’t get why a slacker geometry would work better on a mountain bike; it “looked wrong”because it looked like the bike their parents had. The industry churned out what those consumers wanted.

It wasn’t until some gnarly BC riders decided they needed bikes that rode better, rather than looked a certain way that MTB geometry went back to what it was in the 1970’s.

So to all of you who post about how a bike looks-it was your fault. I hope you’re happy signaling a prefabricated identity through your purchasing decisions. The bikes on the tailgate of your Taco look juuuuust right in front of the coffee shop, even if they could be better if they looked different.
  • 9 0
 Early MTBs after the clunker period were heavily influenced by BMX. Guess what BMX geometry looks like.....

And outside of DH racing noone really cared about downhill speed. The focus was on fun, stunts and tricks (just watch some Kranked films).
  • 1 1
 Half the fun of mtb back in the day, was that the bikes were awful but you would just go out & have a laugh with your mates. You can thank roadies for terrible geo, it is only in the last few years that bikes have started to break away from that & we are getting bikes that actually work for most people.
  • 3 1
 @zyoungson: While it is fashionable on Pinkbike to blame road bikes for everything, blaming MTB geo on them is just plain wrong. If you want to blame someone, go and blame BMX with their 74° Head Tube Angles, 72° Seat angles and super short frames.

But that is a hard pill to swallow because BMX is cool, right?
  • 8 0
 Damn right we've got it in the database... Wink

geometrygeeks.bike/bike/pinkbike-grim-donut-2020
  • 2 0
 Well done
  • 7 0
 Making bikes is easy... look at the success the rad dudes at Sick Bikes have had! oh... wait.....
  • 1 0
 start taking pre orders now!!
  • 1 0
 At least this one arrived on time ????????‍♂️
  • 8 0
 EPIC FAIL - Tyre and rim decals don't align.
  • 4 0
 No, no, no! You've got the drivetrain predictions all wrong, the total number of gears might have dropped over the last decade as we went from 3x8 to 1x12 but those old setups had a number of duplicated ratios and ones in useless chain lines, so the takeaway here is that in 2030 our bikes will have 16+ ring cassettes (with ~8 to 80+ tooth range).
Sadly for most, the other trend is the increased use of motors, obviously the next "advancement" will be power steering through motorised headsets.
  • 3 0
 Over the last decade? Didn't we just go from 1x10 to 1x12?
  • 4 0
 It will have to be a 0.4 x 16+ drivetrain since the number of front rings has been steadily decreasing.
  • 2 0
 @Ttimer: 0.399999 get right
  • 1 0
 @vinay: i rode a 3x9 bike bought in 2008. So no, we didn't. And besides, 1x10 was never really a thing.
  • 1 0
 @Primoz: My bike has a Shimano Zee drivetrain, which has always been 10sp. So yeah, if you get the (current) Shimano Zee group or probably also Shimano Deore (not sure about that one) then you're going to ride with a10sp group. So yeah, 10sp really is a thing.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: but Zee is meant as a DH/freeride group, not meant to be pedalled when designed. 1x pedalling drivetrains have really taken off with 11 speed groups with 12spd making them actually useable. With 10spd, even with a widerange (Sunrace) cassette, the range was still lacking.

And yeah, i know there were tons of people pushing 11-36 cassettes on 36t front rings and shouting 'walk if you can't pedal or get in shape'. But that defeats the purpose of a bike. The best decision i've made in my biking career was to replace the Sram 11spd drivetrain with an Eagle setup 2 years ago. No more pushing gears too heavy up the climbs.
  • 2 1
 @Primoz: If 11-42 range is not enough those people shouting were most likely right.
  • 1 0
 @Primoz: Alright, I don't think I'm ready for a discussion whether a over 300% range 10sp drivetrain is fit for pedaling. I do pedal, maybe I shouldn't then. Either way, I also mentioned the Deore drivetrain. Vitus very recently released the new Mythic bike with a 1x10sp Deore drivetrain with a larger range, comparable to 1x11 range from other groupos. The Kona Process 134 SE also came with this Deore group, I can imagine a good few more. Of course how much range someone needs depends on strength, endurance, riding style and terrain. For many 1x9 is sufficient. For others 1x10 was enough. Apparently there is a big group that required 1x11 or 1x12. And maybe there are even some who'd benefit from 1x13 with a say a 550% range. Pinion C1.12 gets you 600% which also was more or less what a 3x9 drivetrain also got you (44-32-22 in the front, 11-32 or 11-34 in the rear). So yeah, maybe some people really need 600% and Eagle still isn't sufficient. Who are we to say.

So yeah sure I may have been the odd one who has been just fine running 1x9 (though I live in The Netherlands) but the advent of 10sp definitely was enough for a lot of people to go 1x.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: You are welcome to come to Slovenia and show me that 11-42 is enough. You too @vinay

The failure of the Enduro in 2015 i think, when Specialized went 1x only with a 1x10 drivetrain on the cheapest model caused the local distributor to make a special model with GX 1x11 drivetrain just to make the bike make some sense.
  • 1 0
 @Primoz: Thanks for the welcome, I like Slovenia. But I won't go to try to prove something that I didn't even mean to say. Just like if someone riding in the Dolomite prefers the 600% range of Pinion C1.12, you won't go there to convince them that 500% really should be sufficientt for that particular rider on that terrain. Get the bike that suits you and the riding you do. If that takes a 500% gearing rage, get that. If 400% is sufficient, you'd be fine with 11sp. If 330% is sufficient for your riding, there is nothing wrong with sticking to just that. And I'd be silly to, for my riding, get a bike with a 500% gearing range. Simply because the gearing components are much more expensive and unlike a 10sp XT level Shimano cassette, I wouldn't be able to replace individual sprockets (or clusters of two for the bigger ones). I'd need to replace the complete cassette even if only a few gears are skipping. That'd be acceptable if the big range would give me advantages but most of the time it doesn't. At least not to the extend that I'd be willing to spend more on wear parts (like cassette and chain).
  • 6 0
 From the geo numbers: When pedaling, it is a size Small, but when in the descending position, it is like a size XL. Brilliant.
  • 7 0
 If you want to make a million dollars in the bike industry, start with 10 million.
  • 6 0
 Shout out to Bobby Moynihan playing Dave Weagle. Can't believe they were able to land a hollywood star. Also, the Yoann cameo was the best.
  • 6 0
 Pinkbike Review 2031: STA not steep enough, 29" is dead and needs to be modernized to 33" wheels.
  • 1 0
 They will definitely say the angles are too conservative! LOL!
  • 3 0
 The only thing that I think is missed here in future trends as the water bottles. If you look back 10 years - most bike frames had to water bottle cages. Now the average 0.5 excluding that silly cage that some manufacturers put below the downtube to collect cow poop and give you cryptosporidiosis (Test of Metal, Squamish, 12 years ago...). There are about 400 people out there that know my pain.....

That being said, the future trend Mr. Levy should be that we are not allowed to drink water at all - so the new frame you got is actually forward thinking with no allowances for bottles.
  • 4 0
 I'd say water starts just being stored in the bike frame - regardless of materials it's still looks like tubes in the future
  • 3 1
 Where are people riding that cow poop is the reoccurring issue with under the down tube bottles?
  • 4 0
 Bottle cages will not exist in the future, as water bottles will hopefully be replaced by an internal in-frame bladder which can be easily removed for cleaning.
  • 9 0
 By 2030 it will be mounts for Brawndo bottles
  • 2 1
 @boostedka: lots of free range cattle out here so it's def a thing
  • 4 0
 @Dropthedebt: It's what enduro-bros crave!
  • 2 0
 @boostedka: All around the Alps, there are cows and sheeps around and on the trails. Livigno, Saalbach etc..
  • 2 0
 @artistformlyknowasdan: air canister as well, compressed by the action of suspension. Could be used to change tire pressure on the fly. And a really loud horn that sounds like a Mack truck.
Saw a small company at IB a few years back that made a hub with air bladders inside attached to the wheel via 2 hollow spokes. One to raise tire pressure, One to lower it. Called Raven or something.
  • 1 0
 @AD4M: We're in mountain bike world here. Internal bladder will be a part of a tube and will require a frame replacement each time you need to fill it.
  • 1 0
 @boostedka: a local bikepark has a trail over pastures with cows frequently walking along the trail. I've seen similar things in Austria as well.

And that's the most obvious case, we have some old hiking trails going over pastures as well. You also have horse dung on trails from horse riding, etc.
  • 1 0
 Double post
  • 1 0
 @i-am-lp: Learn new things everyday! There are no cows where I ride in the Rocky Mountains so I had no clue!
  • 1 0
 @boostedka: it is more effective than the Keto diet at losing weight. I managed to lose something like 10 pounds in 2 days. One of those days was spent in a hospital. Where I live in Penticton, BC - 1 of the major riding areas is located on rangeland where there are cattle. I would never ever put my bottle on the bottom of the downtube again. The event I was talking about happened during an excellent Squamish event where Pinkbike is centered called the test of metal. The one thing that really worked out well is that the organizers upon finding out that 300 of the 800 competitors had gotten sick - did everything possible to find the cause (a cowpasture) and educate the competitors as to what happened and what would be done about the situation.
  • 7 0
 Anyone else remember the bike Waki drew? Its f*cking real
  • 4 1
 You boneheads made a f'in lowrider. You need to drop the seatpost all the way down, or better yet just weld the seat to the seat tube, put shag carpet on the fork, hang dingle balls from the handlebar, fuzzy dice from the downtube, and I'll let you figure out where to put the bobble head Jesus. Way to find the as yet unexploited Latin market for our sport. Now you just need to design some sweet hydraulics to make bounce and paint some kind of rad fiesta color scheme. Then put it wheel to wheel against a similarly decked out old Stingray. I think I'll name it Juan. Grim Juan.
  • 3 0
 Here's a linkage file's for anyone that wants to see the surprisingly really good results.

wetransfer.com/downloads/e80e64999ad63ca2b87993b1f495898b20200114125532/161e3f

if you don't have linkage you can download it here

www.bikechecker.com
  • 3 0
 The main take away is that:

- it has 32.88% progression making it great for coils

- the anti-squat (at 30% sag) is in the 104% - 101% range in your climbing gears which is damm near perfect

- pedal kickback is stupid low at only 2.5 - 1.5 degrees in the high gears

Honestly this thing as far as I can tell is significantly better than a lot of high end bikes I'v seen on the market. I'm just hoping that head angle doesn't ruin it.
  • 1 0
 Yep we’ll do a more detailed look. We didn’t go into it in the video but I had Dan Roberts do a suspension analysis before we chose this platform.
  • 3 0
 hey, @mikelevy - purely curious on this, but how much did it cost to make and ship to your door from china? honestly would love to see a itemized list (if that's even something they provided you). i work in the construction industry and am just very curious to see what pricing is like comparably in the manufacturing business. this was super entertaining to watch!
  • 8 0
 We can do a cost breakdown in the next one if ppl are interested. The bike was done in Taiwan though. Smile
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: Sorry, I meant to say Taiwan. This was a great segment and would love to see breakdown. Even if there is some itemization into the deep stuff like the quantity of frame material used (how do they measure quantity of aluminum?) then labor costs, shippnig costs, etc. Thanks again!
  • 6 0
 Please say it has that universal derailleur hanger...
  • 2 0
 Something people I feel like don't think about much but when you get this slack starts to make a difference. When you make the HTA steep you actually get less vertical movement out of your fork (also change direction of force increasing friction to movement.

That 180mm fork gives about 150mm of vertical movement.
  • 2 0
 You mean HTA slack?

The benefit of a slack-er/ish headangle is the square bump performance then.

It all depends on what you ride. DJ bikes have stayed steep even to this day.
  • 2 0
 This is a great continuation of Vernon's episode's. Can't wait to see the rest.

I just don't understand why you didn't knock on Trueloves door? I know there are even some people near you making frames out of their basement near you. Would have been way cheaper.
  • 1 0
 Because Trip to Taiwan to drink some Boba tea!
  • 2 0
 Can't Wait to see the Huck to Flat! Will the Head tube snap off or maybe the forks will split in two? either way your front wheel is most likely going to end up in your teeth. Love that your pushing the boundaries, don't know till ya try!
  • 1 0
 Hahaha! Love the commitment to the long play on the bit! I'd love to try riding the donut, even if there is almost zero chance I'd want to buy one. Like the cameos and commitment! Just missing Leo and Chris Porter, lol. Can't wait for the next part(s?)!
  • 1 0
 That first design with the idler and VPP layout would've had negative anti-squat (pro-squat?) so would have needed the firmest climb switch ever!

The triple bottle cage idea is genius though, except the downtube would scrape the floor and either way two tons or snap.
  • 1 0
 What makes you think that?

The idler spocket is rising through the travel (more or less) with the idler to front ring part of the chain pulling the rear triangle back down.
  • 1 0
 Let's see, one extra cog around every three years...sooooo...super bummed that obviously no one was interested in making a 10-78 15-speed cassette for this project. Shimano finally says f-it to shifting cadence lip service and releases 39-45-51-59-68-78 gaps of death. Only available on completely redesigned new bikes and impossible to self-install on any previous model. It's gonna be fantastic.
  • 3 0
 Extrapolate the results 10 more years and we'll be riding on Easy Rider choppers. Who will be the first to make a carbon fiber baseball card I can zip tie to the chainstay?
  • 5 0
 Did anyone else catch the easter egg on the calculator? BOOBIES!
  • 1 0
 I‘d predict gyro stabilizer and a system that reads terrain, adjusts the stabiliser to keep you upright or on the right line. breaking, pedalling and so on is all managed. suspension setup is handled by electromagnetic compression and rebound control. instantly adjusted to the terrain.
the bike might be heavy, but it can simulate any weight you want.
water bottles become irrelevant, you can hold two drinks at any time.


so practically the bike could ride itself. your just sitting on top or not.
  • 2 0
 Why go Taiwanese production, when you have companies like Nicolai, Pole and Atherton (Robot) who can churn out insane prototypes in a forthnight? I bet Jeff Steber would be down to weld up something similar in a wiff!
  • 1 0
 But would they?

Seriously, is there a place you can go to where they would make a mule from your design (kinematics and strength calculations included), but would give you the values of the tubes and the like? And that would do that for a decent chunk of cash (say similar to an off the shelf frame)?

Other than buying some equipment and learning how to weld i haven't found anyone being able to do that. And i'm willing to work within the confines of standard parts (pivot housings, yokes, etc.). And i'd be willing to go through the pain to source some of my own billet parts if needed (links and the like).
  • 1 0
 @Primoz: I have no doubt Nicolai would. Just look at the delightfully awesome madness that is Random Tandem.
  • 1 0
 @megatryn: I have much doubt. Their name is on it and it's made for one of the best known bikers in the world, in part, sadly, due to his injury. For one of the largest YT MTB channels on the platform. This has tons of marketing potential. Making a custom, one-off bike with a completely different suspension platform to anything they otherwise make for a random internet smartass is a completely different thing.

EDIT: oh, you meant for Pinkbike? Yeah, they might in that case Big Grin
  • 1 0
 @Primoz: Yeah, totally meant for this particular Pinkbike madness! I see why you were confused Wink
  • 2 0
 Turn the fork around for negative offset. I think that would be a step in the right direction. And with stems getting shorter and handle bars longer. Might as well flip the stem around too. Wally world style.
  • 1 0
 Mike Levy you take that cake or the donut in this case! After years of always going on and on about short steep bikes, then recently saying you love the Pole Stamina 140 to making this beautiful monster! I CAN'T WAIT for your review of this bike!
  • 1 0
 Evolution takes unsuspected forms. For example, who would have thought that a basic "Session-type" design would become so pervasive?No one would have imagined a bike of the future with such a basic, run-of-the-mill style 20 years ago!
  • 1 0
 Chromag called, they want their FS bike design back lease. Though this thing is 'obviously' a joke, we found out a few years after the fact the similarly one off Rocky Pipedream was actually a development mule for the current Slayer. With the data mining that PB has been doing, I'm curious what this turns into
  • 4 0
 I cant wait to hear how stable yet playful bikes are in 2030!
  • 3 0
 Bike from the future and a 30.9mm seat tube?
Should of gone with a nice even 50.
  • 2 2
 For those wondering why it took us so long to get decent geometry, listen to Cathros interview of Minaar about geometry:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhLeyUPF-pA

TL; DR: In 2005ish, Cathros sponsor offered to make a bike with any geometry he wanted. Being like 6'7", he initially sketched up something similar to a Pole or Geometron, but in the end he chickened out and just went with their XL. Minaar had a similar experience on the Honda team, but he says that tracks, riding styles, and riders themselves weren't ready for ultra long geo yet, and probably would have been slower.

So fast forward 10 years from now this "joke" might actually be the norm.
  • 2 2
 This is sort of excusing the bike industry.

The problem is that DH requires a whole different set of bike characteristics than enduro. DH is all about one run, and so its normal to expect that the guys will be on point for the entire duration of the run, managing the bike under them. For this, you don't actually want crazy long of wheelbases or slack head angles, because you are going to be picking the bike up quite a lot over stuff, and you want the ability to change weight distribution quickly to change the pitch of the bike.

The whole reason mullet setups came about is that running a 27.5 rear lets the bike have the same travel but shorter chainstays.

For enduro however, anyone can tell you that the days are demanding mentally as well as physically, and the longer the bikes are just safer and more confidence inspiring to ride at a faster pace, which means that when you are doing the final stages, you are less likely to crash.

The main reason why everyone hasn't followed Pole/Nicolai is because manufacturers want to release incremental updates to get people to upgrade every 2 years. More business for them, while they get time to plan even further in the future.
  • 3 0
 @phops: I was asking why bikes like the Enduro and Slayer weren't being used for Enduro races, with some riders choosing 140mm travel bikes over larger ones, and why the Specialized enduro racers we riding the normal stumpy, and not even the Evo. Everyone said its because Enduro stages have a lot more flat parts and slow-exit corners than a typical DH race, making a quick handling and fast-exiting bike more important than one you can just plow through the parts of a trail you don't know very well. That answer seems to be at opposite with what you're saying.

I've never done an Enduro race, so IDK
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez:

From what I understand about enduro, its less about speed through an individual corner and more about overall average speed. Some people are pedalers, others dh shredders, and they prefer the bike one way or another.

The thing about the "future" geometry is its theoretically the best of both worlds. You have long chainstays that equalize the weight better so you can turn the bike with enough weight on the front, while the overall long wheelbase and slack head angle means that on descents, the bike is stable.

We all know that a lot of the performance is due to the rider, but Pole sponsored rider Leigh Johnson is ranked 13th in EWS, which is pretty high, and he was relatively unknown. So its fair to say that the bike probably had something to do with it.
  • 3 0
 That 83 deg seat tube is gonna make some Orthopedic surgeon a busy guy scoping knees
  • 1 0
 Why? AFAIK it's been proven opening up the hip joint is beneficial efficiency wise when pedalling.
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy: Mike, you better find a way to get those water bottles mounted before you get kidney stones from tea and energy drinks.
  • 2 0
 This is awesome. Genuinely interested to see how it rides although I wouldn't want to be the one guinea pigging it. Well done PB.
  • 2 0
 Dammit, not a Mantis... :-( Get RC back then!

But why go all the way to Taiwan if a local builder like Daambuilt could have built your true dream, but in steel?
  • 5 1
 This thing needs a Trust Shout!
  • 3 0
 The down country bike of the future...

Who gave the guy who invented downcountry the keys to design a bike?!
  • 2 0
 Looking forward to seeing levy ride this bike for a week, attempt the impossible climb and the huck to flat.
Might be a good idea to do the huck to flat last? Maybe?
  • 4 0
 @yoannbarelli cameo in this video is pure gold!!!
  • 3 0
 The weather will have changed by the time the back wheel passes where the front wheel has gone.
  • 2 0
 My version of this idea came to life in 2016: www.pinkbike.com/photo/18168040
Looking forward on how you liked the concept.
  • 3 0
 That's actually a great looking frame. I'd want one with a ~64 degree head angle and a 450mm reach for myself.
  • 4 0
 So... Knolly's are made in Taichung by Genio.
  • 2 0
 Knolly, Pivot, and many others
  • 4 0
 lmao it's the bike for the comments section
  • 3 0
 We had a concept that would fit 3 water bottles. So obviously we completely changed it, so it wouldn't fit a single bottle.
  • 1 0
 Okay, raise your hands if you want to try it: No lying, you know you do!

Yup, just like a horny teenager, we will do anything with a heart beat or ummm, as long as it's still warm.
  • 2 0
 Wow Pinkbike, you're on a roll lately! Love this video and all the funny, (and sometimes interesting) stuff in there Big Grin

Keep the bro-science coming!
  • 5 0
 Why is it not pink?
  • 1 0
 IMHO, HTA might be too steep on this one. Give that bike a few hard drops (From 6 feet and up) and run on a few super hard/gnarly runs and expect some cracks on the stem... Bike looks rad tho!
  • 3 0
 @mikelevy This bike, bike rack, Mini. Just for the ridiculousness of the resulting image!
  • 2 0
 It's a few feet wider than the car is!
  • 1 0
 Couple of weeks in the future: "We deplore the death of our tester, impaled on the upper tubes of his fork. An investigation is opened to understand how his fork could have broken as well."
  • 1 0
 With how many random bike companies nowadays you'd think it'd be a lot 'easier' and 'affordable' than what you were told. These guys must sell 5 bikes a year? And somehow stay in business.
  • 1 0
 Also if the crown is assembled reversed I think it will get close to zero offset without going negative. It would be worth trying! Maybe even getting one with more offset so it gets closer to zero!
  • 1 0
 Negative offset works, not like negative stem. you can go there with no issues except for trail/wheelbase ratio.
  • 1 0
 We talk about that in the article. Smile
  • 1 0
 Great content/project PB. Entertaining, funny, and can't wait to see if it'll hold up in part 2. Needs a minimum of 3 cage mounts tho...it's really important to stay hydrated!
  • 1 0
 In terms of HA, the moto world has settled on 62.5... more and you start to have binding issues, less.. well just not as good. Im sure we will briefly go past that number but will settle on 62.5.
  • 3 0
 Pole designers are punching the air right now
  • 2 0
 More like laughing because when given a choice to create any bike he wants, the PB editor creates a Pole. This is like the best marketing Pole can get.
  • 2 0
 forgot the motor, fusion reactor and hybrid 23 speed dual clutch transmission
  • 2 0
 At 6’5 feet tall these numbers look more appealing to me then most bikes on the market. If you need any test riders...
  • 2 0
 Never say no to outside-of-the-box thinking before you have tried it yourself.
  • 1 0
 Cables? Where's the psychokinetic shifting/braking/dropper? Effectively eliminating 100% of the controls on your bars. Very Clean Look
  • 3 0
 Harley Davidson called. They want their chopper back.
  • 2 0
 Swap out the Avon's for some grippy Maxxis , and the resemblance is uncannySmile Smile

media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/10/09/eas017ei_custom-70f39e8969935bcce80b2a04045ec7938a8577bc-s800-c85.jpg
  • 1 0
 @vemegen My first thought on seeing it..... Oh look, Choppers are back in style.
I bet the wheel flop is true joy.
  • 3 0
 No water bottle mounts? Levy is losing it
  • 3 2
 RC retires and the whole place goes to pot. We sure can tell who was the moderating influence on that staff.

I’ll put money on there being a motor in that thing.
  • 3 0
 Clearly needs a linkage fork to be from the future!
  • 4 0
 Reno sucks
  • 5 1
 Looks like a session
  • 3 0
 "Mike Levy Creates the World's Most Elaborate Paperweight"
  • 2 0
 you guys think that we won't have paved over all the green spaces by 2030? that's pretty optimistic
  • 2 0
 Ditch the whole rear suspension thing and turn it into a proper aggro hardtail. Just my 2 cents
  • 1 0
 I tried putting a 7" fork on a dirt jumper before.
HTA ended up being 62°. So floppy & nearly impossible to quickly change directions.
Small jumps were really sketchy, but it felt better sending bigger ones.
  • 1 0
 @Chonky13: Sure. If this Donut thing was a hardtail, its HTA would also sit around 62%, once fork sagged at 30%.
However, unlike your DJ experiment, I think it would still benefit from the mullet configuration and the long AF wheelbase.
Moreover, PB scientists could put a scale under each wheel, and adjust CS lenght accordingly to the desired weight distribution.
Or maybe I'm all wrong, and it would turn to be just another trail abomination...
  • 2 0
 @Chonky13: reach became too short, BB too high, not just a problem of HTA.
  • 2 0
 Will there be a Huck to flat movie in super slo mo?
I would like to see the bending forks!
  • 2 0
 In 2030, will hydration be by intravenous Camelbak, or is there an osmosis patch on the saddle?
  • 1 0
 it will not, i repeat, will not fit on the shuttle truck @baileymountain gravity park. shout out to jennifer and guy @baileymountain gravity park.
  • 3 0
 This an awesome concept - can't wait for part 2!
  • 1 0
 I don't know if I should laugh, cry or call Kevin at Evil and tell him his geometry was ripped off, again. HAHAHAHAHA. That said, I'd ride it!
  • 2 0
 Am I the only one laughing at the two dudes in the background of the lithograph? Those dudes are the ones sending it!
  • 4 1
 I miss that old guy Vernon.
  • 1 1
 Yeah, wtf happened to Vernon?
  • 1 0
 @alexhyland: I think he's working for Specialized now?
  • 1 0
 @megaold: that is the last I heard of him
  • 3 0
 @ReformedRoadie: I just looked up his LinkedIn account and it seems he's now the Global Marketing Manager/US Director of Product Development for Canyon.

www.linkedin.com/in/vernon-felton-48a5508
  • 2 0
 @megaold: WTF...he never even called me.
  • 2 0
 @ReformedRoadie: Pfft...the nerve!
  • 4 0
 WANT TO RIDE IT SO BAD
  • 3 0
 Please make a Field Test of that thing quick!!
  • 2 0
 Where was the integrated donut holder?? SWAT boxes, NUTS systems, banana hammocks..... WE NEED a DONUT/DOUGHNUT holder.
  • 4 0
 2:16 Boobies!
  • 1 0
 Sound logic. So if humans evolved from 4- legged animals, and we now have 2 legs, then I'm really looking forward to optimized humans 2.0 with 1 leg.
  • 2 0
 Canyon and Richie Rude's world champion yeti jerseys on the office's wall....
  • 2 0
 questa bici è bella come il sole, infatti non si può guardare

this bike is as beautiful as the sun, in fact you cannot look at it
  • 1 0
 I had so much fun watching this. classic! i would have gone for 240mm travel. please show us in the next episode how the fork just snaps on a small drop.
  • 1 0
 IMO, Top tubes will get longer the forks won't be as slack and handlebar mounts (behind or infront) of fork tubes will be used to tune steering....
  • 2 0
 I'm no scientist but after any sort of flat ground landing that forks going to snap not compress. I just jinxed it.
  • 2 0
 Hey Levy, This is probably my favorite thread ever on PB, thanks! On the edge of my seat, awaiting the next edition ...
  • 1 0
 You and me both!
  • 1 0
 Even such a jokes gets made for real straightaway now, there's really no need for a CG artist in the bike industry xD
Oh well hopefully it pays better in archviz :p
  • 2 0
 Pinkbike's bike of the future has a long development history... I worked on the drawings for this frame in 2013!
  • 2 2
 You know what has zero offset and can handle a slack HTA like that? A lefty! Cannondale was 30 years ahead preparing for this! The needle bearings in a lefty would work way better than bushings in a traditional fork.
  • 3 0
 Reminds me of Homer Simpsons car design
  • 2 0
 Just to check the validity: What is the outcome if the evolution from 2000-2010 is extrapolated to 2020?
  • 1 0
 questa bici è bella come il sole, infatti non si può guardare

this bike is as beautiful as the sun, in fact you cannot look at it
  • 1 0
 Well who is going to tell all the bike industry. that we now have the perfect bike & no need to design or sell any more bikes ever again?
  • 2 0
 loving the "8008135" calculator gag at 2 mins 17! Retro gag! Boobies will always be funny!
  • 1 0
 Who’s motorcycle is this?
It’s not a motorcycle, it’s a Grim Donut.
Who’s Grim Donut is this?
It’s Mike’s.
Who’s Mike?
Mike’s dead, baby, Mike’s dead.
  • 1 0
 Water bottles?why not a second tube running along with the upper one and filled with water and just have a tube like in a back pack
  • 1 0
 i feel sooooo scared the front end might snap! But of course we have to be optimistic that who knows it may be the start of something new.
  • 1 0
 Seriously why did you guys let Levy do this? He invents one word and all of the sudden you let him make his own bikes!? How did you think this was going to go down!!???
  • 1 0
 I need this bike. Just let me borrow it for a speed record attempt. The head angle will look perfect on a forty degree slope. I'm not kidding. Let me ride this bike.
  • 2 0
 STA still not steep enough
  • 1 0
 Yup. 90 deg or why even bother? Wink
  • 2 0
 All I can really say is, can I try it?
  • 1 0
 oh hey man
  • 3 0
 sick bike, guys
  • 7 0
 PLEASE, we need to get a PInkbike Hotlap on this thing with Eddie!!!
  • 2 0
 Great concept, but you went way too far with the HTA
  • 2 0
 no bottle cages in the future...
  • 1 0
 Urgh a Pressfit BB? Oh and my eyes hurt looking at the angles on the front.....

Very entertaining though Pinkbike!
  • 2 0
 Where do I place my order?
  • 2 0
 In 2030 I better have a 300mm travel bike that weighs 25 lbs.
  • 4 1
 Boobies alert at 2:17
  • 1 0
 Hah! You made me go back, I actually thought I missed something. Too funny.
  • 2 0
 Bummer they didn't extrapolate the axle width. Or did they?
  • 2 0
 Is the frame one giant water bottle?
  • 3 1
 Man, you kids REALLY coulda used some RC input on this project.....
  • 1 0
 In the future humans will be like the tyrannosaurus rex all legs and no arms?

Also this is awesome, I love every bit.
  • 2 0
 needs more bottom bracket drop
  • 2 0
 Your drugs dealer is a swindler
  • 2 0
 You should probably go ahead and fire whoever did the kinematics on this
  • 1 0
 Aïe aïe aïe, don't want to see that thing huck to flat with such a HA...
  • 1 0
 With clipless pedals, all weight on front and no problem ^^
  • 2 0
 If the head angle was 63 degrees you could easily sell it now!
  • 1 0
 Cool concept. Way to go all out and test the limits. I've had similar questions about where the limits are.
  • 2 0
 Can't wait to see the huck to flat test!
  • 1 0
 When is Demo day? I'd like to try a small and is there a model that comes with a motor?
  • 3 1
 Nicolai Geometron? Pinkbike better lawyer up!!!
  • 2 0
 Doesn't look to far away from a Pole Sorry Pole
  • 2 0
 Wonder what the cost was to have that frame built????
  • 1 0
 Is that an eight-speed chain on a twelve-speed chainring, or a twelve-speed chain on an eight-speed cassette?
  • 2 0
 The only true test for this machine is a timed Hot Lap!
  • 1 0
 The front wheel will be finishing ALine before the back wheel hits the squirrel catcher.
  • 1 0
 Marc Levy, come on, you called it the Grim Donut `cos deep inside of you you actually wanted a Drim Gonut... ;-)
  • 1 0
 One of my friend used to say: “They didn’t know it was impossible so they did it!”
  • 1 0
 I was hoping for an update on the mysterious Forestal bikes.... am disappoint.
  • 1 0
 Redefines “slack” - looking forward to see more of these series. .. .. .
  • 2 0
 I demand to see that sh!t hucked to flat from 10ft!
  • 3 0
 THIS IS THE WAY.
  • 2 0
 Needs a 27.5 x 3.0 Gazza for that true 2030 moto look.
  • 3 0
 Do a manual!
  • 3 0
 Cue Benny Hill music
  • 2 0
 I just want someone to look at me the way Levy gazes at his grim donut
  • 2 0
 HUCK TO FLAT vid or it never happened.
  • 1 0
 no insurance will cover the costs for the medical treatment
  • 1 0
 @seidla: to be fair to the pole it wasn’t the headtube that broke in the test
  • 1 0
 If that original design ever becomes a reality, I will buy the heck out it, immediately. Let me throw my money at it!
  • 2 0
 BROKEN STEERTUBE 300% Hellooooo
  • 1 0
 Is it just me, or does this look like it's hucking to flat while standing still.
  • 1 0
 Levy should have called it the "Frankenstein" because it is a Frankenstein bike.
  • 1 0
 With that headtube angle, I'd like to see a jump to flat. Can't imagine the headtube would remain on the bike for long.
  • 1 0
 Learn fast by going too far. I'm very curious to hear if the STA can go steeper or is already as steep as it can go.
  • 1 0
 @pinkbikeoriginals despite your attempt at making raw aluminum look bad it still looks 'good'
  • 2 0
 Press Fit BB though . . .
  • 2 0
 Put the Trust Linkage fork on that thing!
  • 1 0
 Besides a test I expect you guys to come up with a witty new category where this fits in ....
  • 1 1
 Jason Lucas is definitely taking Pinkbike to the next level, along with everyone involved in this and other amazing posts. Congrats!
  • 2 0
 Where's the gearbox? Come on...
  • 1 0
 Looks like the Nukeproof dh bike with a hella steep seat tube and a hella slack head angle
  • 1 0
 I wish it was a mullet bike with a 33" wheel up front... oh well, can't have everything on the first go...
  • 2 0
 obligatory: "looks like a session"
  • 2 0
 It's like a full suspension Doctahawk
  • 1 0
 ok I would totally ride that but, the head tube angle seems a little sketchy.
  • 1 0
 Fork bushings putting in overtime. Looks like a candidate for a needle bearing fork with that HA
  • 1 0
 I would rather believe this is only a joke,a fork bender and just a piece of shxt.
  • 1 0
 So I'm. designing a frame with 1000mm reach,30HTA,and120STA for 30years later.
  • 1 0
 If the fork was pushed inwards towards the down tube, it would actually be a not too bad frame design LOL
  • 1 0
 Thats propper bike-nerd article, littlebit naive, funny, frame loooks soo silly, but i love the concept Big Grin
  • 2 0
 And how steep shopuld the trail be in order for the fork to work?
  • 1 0
 all of the angles.
  • 2 0
 Just how bad is Levy's diet?
  • 1 0
 I wonder if the Atherton Bikes computer would have thrown those numbers out?
  • 2 0
 30.9 seatpost?! You're drunk Levy! Bigger is better, 34.9 or more or GTFO!
  • 1 0
 regardless of the argument slack head angle, longer bike...did anyone else catch the boobies on the calculator? 8008135
  • 1 0
 Now this just makes me want to finally build the bike I have been designing for years...
  • 1 0
 ha! Nice cookies @mikelevy
HPV
8008135
Parts Needed: bar ends, front derailleur
  • 1 0
 Do not ever do away with the front derailleur mount. Where else will you mount the beer bottle opener?
  • 1 0
 Why wait? Maybe not as radical, but the bike is already in production. www.deviatecycles.com/highlander
  • 1 0
 Lets all take a moment to appreciate how much sweet sweet syphilitic tail Denis got riding that velocipede around town.
  • 1 0
 Also whatever happened to LaPierre?
  • 1 0
 Nice Helmet there, Mike...
  • 3 6
 "It's obvious bikes will have fewer and fewer gears" Huh? Fewer front chainrings for sure, but theres nothing stopping you from having a 3x12 =36 speed bike. Shimano doesn't make a clutched derailleur with fewer than 10 speeds, and Sram shifting...well, no.
  • 1 0
 I think the point is that 15 years ago we had 3x9, 27 gears. Then we ditched the third ring and were running 2x10 drivetrains for a while, only 20 gears. Now we've dropped another ring and bikes have 11 or 12 gears. That's trending downwards, so Mike has gone straight to 2030 with only 8 gears.
  • 1 1
 @tom666: Yeah, that was a rather obtuse post. I meant to say, that since 1X drivetrains came out, the last decade has seen an increase in the number of rear cogs to more, not fewer.
I don't see that changing in the current decade.
  • 1 0
 Love it. Quality content right here.
  • 1 0
 "500mm reach (size small)" - haha Big Grin
  • 1 0
 Did I sleep through winter? Is it already April 1?
  • 1 0
 God damn the reach looks short built up
  • 1 0
 Hahahaha I died when I saw the seat tube! Big Grin Big Grin
  • 1 0
 The hardest part was machining Unobtainium fork bushings and headset.
  • 2 0
 OTB proof for sure
  • 2 1
 Flip flops? Why go half way when you can go all in with Crocks!
  • 1 0
 Sick bikes did it... wait, nope nope, nevermind.
  • 1 0
 Finally a bike that is “out the front door” proof.
  • 1 0
 Reminds of a Stanton Switch9er FS- but in ugly.
  • 5 6
 Mike's tatoos just do not suit the guy at all, remember think I'll get used to seeing him with em but that was a longgg time ago and they still look terrible
  • 1 0
 Well that just crushed my dream of staring my own bike company
  • 1 0
 Possibly usable with +2° headset cups? Or are there +3°?
  • 1 0
 This is the best thing you've done period.
  • 1 0
 looking forward to see you do the impossible climb on the Grim Donut !
  • 1 0
 Laser cats, needs more laser cats!
  • 2 1
 God damn I love Pinkbike lately..
  • 1 0
 That was great, better than most of Netfix and Prime combined.
  • 1 0
 And All Mountain Intentions, is this yet another category?
  • 1 0
 Most of this was a joke, right? ..... right? Please...
  • 1 0
 How much longer until the Grim Donut has a Rockstar Energy sticker on it?
  • 1 0
 Huck to flat test is going to be stanchion snappingly awesome
  • 1 0
 8008135 on the calculator...math checks out????
  • 1 0
 Where are the 32'', plus, PLUS, ultra boost wheels? >.> #DoublePlus
  • 1 0
 The wheel size of the future 31.5”
  • 1 0
 It is impossible to go over the bars with this frame.
  • 2 1
 On the contrary I bet the steering flop makes it pretty easy to go OTB.
  • 1 0
 I would call it the Harley Davidson geometry.
  • 1 0
 Where's the Idler pulley gone?
  • 1 0
 Good job everyone, we gave the Genio website the hug of death Smile
  • 1 1
 Only one thing missing. The Rotor 1x13 cassette with hydraulic derailleur. Drivetrain of the future.
  • 1 0
 I like what you did around 2:16.
  • 1 0
 Genio, huh? Those welds look knawfully familiar...
  • 1 0
 Where do I go to pre-order??
  • 2 1
 Should have been a clean 90 STA. 45 HTA. I like math.
  • 1 0
 Can almost hear it now. "SNAP"
  • 2 0
 Boobies!
  • 1 0
 Anyway, get rid of the third bottle and you should be fine on new yeti
  • 1 0
 Climbs like an EMTB descends like a 2005 VP Free Lmaoo
  • 1 0
 Special thanks to @wakiDesigns
What happened there?
  • 1 0
 Did Waki draw that sketch?
  • 1 0
 It needs more acronyms to upsell the game-changing geometry.
  • 1 1
 450 chainstay seems whay to short.. My nicolai has 445.. So 2030 have to be atleast 470!
  • 1 0
 I'm liking the rainbow Canyon jerseys on the wall behind Calvin.
  • 1 0
 Grim Donut, perfect for Homer Simpson and all cops.
  • 1 0
 That thing deserves a banana seat and a sissy bar.
  • 1 0
 I want this bike, Pink bike, in pink, Pinkbike!
  • 1 0
 Should've called it the Wheelbarrow
  • 1 0
 It is ridiculous but I don't hate it!
  • 1 0
 Trust Fork or its all for nothing!
  • 1 0
 All that and still no 34.9 seatpost?
  • 1 0
 Waiting for the Hot Lap on this thing Smile
  • 1 0
 that better be a 246mm rotor in the front...
  • 1 0
 Pinkbike Trailbike of the Year
  • 1 0
 That STA is heavy on the arms!
  • 1 0
 In 2040 we'll have reverse threaded bottom brackets
  • 1 0
 Fuck yeah this is exactly the kind of content I dream about.
  • 1 0
 Super fun video guys!! Well done PB!
  • 1 0
 so you need a long stem to get the effective reach back?
  • 1 0
 we NEED a Levy dream build video
  • 1 0
 thank goodness it didn't have an Emotor
  • 1 0
 Great entertainment. Well done.
  • 1 0
 Itl shred going straight !
  • 1 0
 how much does it weight??
  • 2 0
 8008135 - hehehe
  • 1 0
 I can't wait to see this! This is real news!
  • 1 0
 More of this type of thing please!!!!!!
  • 1 0
 Best piece on PB in ages. How is this thing on tight switchbacks?
  • 1 0
 The buzz word in 2030 will be no-country
  • 1 0
 At 2:16 tell me 8008135 doesn't mean something...
  • 1 0
 Bro brah, needs some ape hanger bars to be rad.
  • 1 0
 Please don't jump it... someone will get impaled Wink
  • 1 0
 Linkage Fork. Levy only went half way....to 2025
  • 1 0
 Pf92 and 30.9 seatube geez.. . Also where does my burrito mount?
  • 1 0
 Looks like if sick hadn't completely shit the bed as a bunch of cunts
  • 1 0
 I----Is, it bad that I don't mind it?
  • 1 0
 I'm waiting for the rest ride.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy. Great calculator work, you nearly spelt it right ;-)
  • 1 0
 Where do I order? Wanna be ahead of the game!
  • 1 0
 that fork needs a negative offset !!
  • 1 0
 Did you put pre-stretched cables to go with the pre-cased-frame?
  • 1 0
 What do a prototype like that cost?
  • 1 0
 I think this is a conspiracy with DW to promote the trust fork.
  • 1 0
 Pinkbike just gave us HPV????
  • 1 0
 This is so exciting!!?? Imagine having Levy's job with this one
  • 1 0
 That is awesome! Well done Mr.Levy. More please.
  • 2 0
 It looks like a session
  • 1 0
 those fork bushings will die a fast death
  • 1 0
 Really good stuff Pinkbike. Grats Levy.
  • 1 0
 One just wont extrapolate from two data points! ????????????
  • 1 0
 You forgot to title the video “new bike day”
  • 1 0
 Wtf where is the ride report and video of the huck to flat?
  • 1 0
 Put the fork on backwards for negative offset...duh.
  • 1 0
 Where can I send my deposit?
  • 1 0
 Can't wait for the slow mo bottom out & head tube peel off
  • 1 2
 Well I talked crap over the head angle on Levy's instagram... Aaaaaaand turns out I nailed the head angle in my comment haha
  • 1 0
 No water bottle?
  • 2 1
 Holy head angle..
  • 1 2
 We get it... super slack HA and super steep STA. This trend is getting out of hands people...
  • 1 0
 I really like it.
  • 1 0
 Didn't see that comin' !
  • 1 0
 haha love it!!
  • 4 4
 So judging off that video Knolly are catalogue frames??
  • 7 0
 Genio is known for super high end custom projects for numerous brands. Catalog frames is only part of their business.
  • 2 0
 Have you seen any other rear suspension that even vaguely resembles their system? Nah, this just means they're built in that factory... kind of a rare glimpse behind brand curtains though.
  • 1 0
 The original Pinkbike article gave more details on the manufacturing process and Genio as both a boutique builder and catalog frame manufacturer (they highlight their relationship with Pivot in the article). www.pinkbike.com/news/we-went-to-taiwan-and-started-a-bike-company.html
  • 1 0
 That's amazing!
  • 1 0
 Jason freaking Lucas
  • 1 0
 Just......WHY?!
  • 1 0
 HPV @ Dark Owl
  • 1 0
 "Snap"
  • 2 0
 I hope @dan-roberts has a Behind the Numbers article in the works for this beast.
  • 1 0
 Take my money!!
  • 1 3
 You forgot the most important part. In 10 years maybe 5 years all bike will be E-Bike. So you need a motor and battery!! The new F-1 of MTB
  • 1 0
 Ha! that was awesome.
  • 1 0
 Gearbox?
  • 1 0
 Awesome content guys!
  • 1 0
 raffle it out after Wink
  • 1 0
 this is friggin awesome!
  • 3 3
 HTA = 57° ?????
  • 7 0
 Yeah, that’s easy to slack, I would have stopped at 58.5
  • 2 0
 @nurseben: Just needs a negative angle set & it will be fine!
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