Vorsprung Introduces the Secus Air Spring System

Aug 4, 2020
by Vorsprung Suspension  

Press Release: Vorsprung

Yeah, we know - “coil-like feel” from air springs has been marketed for years now, including by us. And over the years, air springs have mostly gotten closer to that predictable, plush feel coils give, but while the easy adjustability of pressure and end-stroke ramp have always been significant advantages for air springs, even our market-leading Luftkappe and Corset air springs never quite matched the linearity of coil springs for bump compliance, particularly in the early and mid travel, because whenever the initial stroke stiffness was reduced, the ending stroke progression was increased - eventually creating a practical limit on negative chamber size. We looked carefully at the limitations of traditional fork air springs to work out how to overcome those obstacles, and we’re excited about what we were able to achieve.

For the first time, we created an air spring with a truly better spring rate curve than a coil, without it actually being worse in any part of the travel.
Yes, you read that correctly.
Yes, it’s a big claim.
Yes, we can back it up.

It’s called the Secus.
The Secus is the first and only air spring system in a fork where the spring rate at 40mm travel is actually higher than it is at 10mm travel.

Three Stages of Control

Initial stroke - enlarged negative air spring chamber delivers a soft, supple initial stroke for ultimate small bump compliance
Mid stroke - where traditional air spring rates drop off in the midstroke, our proprietary Midstroke Support Valve technology boosts the midstroke spring rate to maintain linearity, for support, predictability, ride height and compliance
End stroke - enlarged lower leg volume reduces overall progression even at higher pressures and allows for a wider range of end-stroke ramp options to be utilised with standard fork volume spacers.


What’s it all mean? The Secus upgrade attaches to your factory air shaft assembly to deliver the first and only air spring system to really come indistinguishably close to the linear spring rate of a coil fork for the entire first 2/3rds of its travel, with the advantage of a gentle end stroke progression to prevent bottoming without the “wall of force” harshness that excessively progressive springs create.

By independently optimising the beginning, middle and end portions of the stroke, the Secus gives you the linear-to-progressive spring rate that coil springs and traditional air springs alike wish they had.


Secus Advantages:

• Distinctly improved small bump compliance, particularly in the early travel (yes, even compared to the Luftkappe)
• Midstroke Support Valve improves predictability and support beyond the sag point
• Reduced lower leg pneumatic ramp means better scalability of the air spring, particularly for light riders who previously struggled to use full travel
• Plush and predictable like a coil, bottomless like an air spring
• Allows full use of travel in both directions - fully extends to top out without any quibbles (including on Debonair B1 air springs) and fully compresses without an excessive ramp
• Considerably lighter than coil conversions - adds approximately 130g
• Allows lower leg bath oil to be used for superior lubrication
• Simple setup - inflate fork, bounce on it a few times, press MSV charge button, go ride
• Compatible with OEM volume spacers for end-stroke progression adjustment
• Compatible with other aftermarket top-cap systems such as DSD Runt and MRP Ramp Control
• Lower compression ratios mean a more consistent spring rate
• Transferrable between any Secus-compatible forks with only a footstud to change at most



12 Month Crash Replacement Guarantee
We will replace any damage to your Secus in the event of a crash or accident for the first 12 months of ownership - no questions asked. Just email us a photo of what’s damaged and your proof of purchase and we’ll do the rest.



Secus Disadvantages:

• Costs more money than not having it
• 130g is still more than 0g
• Can be damaged if you have it, can’t be damaged if you don’t
• Still has seal friction like any air spring - since we use the factory moving seals, friction is unchanged
• Bottom out control is not externally adjustable - need to use volume spacers which still entails removing the top cap



Compatible Forks

Most Fox forks with Float NA2/Evol air springs (except StepCast forks or forks with footbolts recessed in the lowers). 32/34/36 available immediately, 38 and 40 fitments coming soon.

Most Rockshox Debonair 2019-21 forks or prior year forks updated with 2019-20 Debonair airshafts. Pike, Revelation, Lyrik, Yari available immediately, Boxxer fitments coming soon.

Not currently recommended for use with 2021 Debonair C1 shafts due to inadequate topout control and incorrect overall length - 2021 forks need to be retrofitted with the Debonair B1 air shaft assemblies from 2019-20.

For full compatibility information, see our website.




Air or Coil? Secus or Smashpot?

We aren’t purists on the air vs coil debate - we offer the Smashpot coil conversion as well because while this is flat out the best-performing air spring on the market, air springs still have moving seals and the friction and service requirements associated with that. Likewise, coil springs work extremely and have no friction, but are less adjustable in their spring rate and heavier.

Secus Price: MSRP $425CAD (approx $320USD at time of publication) including free shipping anywhere in North America. First batch available immediately.

See our list of elite-level tuning centres here. Get in touch if you'd like to become a dealer.

Proudly designed, tested & manufactured in Whistler, Canada.

More information at www.vorsprungsuspension.com
@vorsprungsuspension | Follow us on Instagram & Facebook


294 Comments

  • 120 5
 Best list of disadvantages ever Smile
- costs more than doing nothing
- weighs more than nothing
- more breakable than nothing

Would be curious to try if I wasn't already on a MRP Ribbon Coil - my days of "grass is always greener" are done now.
  • 85 12
 Now that you have an MRP you've given up on finding a good fork?
  • 18 12
 @ccollord: or he's out of cash.
  • 8 15
flag pugafi (Aug 4, 2020 at 13:57) (Below Threshold)
 @nurseben: yeee.. maybe cause hes on the shop 2 times a month fixing it rather than being able to save money and get something else..
  • 24 9
 @nurseben @pugafi @ccollord: I’ve owned and rode Pikes, Lyriks, 32s, 34s, 36s, 40s, Idylles. I would take my MRP over any offering from RS or Fox and I’ve had less problems with MRP both in function, longevity, and customer support than any of the others.
  • 12 1
 @coltybear15: they definitely have good customer support, and I suppose I never had any issues with failures in functionality or longevity. It was the performance that sucked.
  • 7 0
 Sounds like it secus
  • 1 1
 I want to have Secus on my fork.
  • 3 3
 @coltybear15: not by any chance close to my experience with a ribbon, absolutely dissapointed..
  • 7 4
 @nurseben: from the dipshit riding a trust fork....
  • 2 0
 @garrisond5: this is trust compatible. Sweet.
  • 5 0
 Now after frames bottle mount. WE WANT FORK PIGGYBACK MOUNT!
  • 5 1
 @coltybear15: I agree. My Ribbon air has been flawless for 2 plus years now. Can't say that about previous Fox and especially can't say that about previous Rock Sux.
  • 4 1
 @nurseben: Or he doesn't need to waste money on something that would provide performance that would really only be beneficial to racers or pros... Let's be real, even an entry level fork would be enough for your average rider. Yes this add on would be nice, but your money can be put into other components that would actually make a significant difference for the average rider.

To be clear, I'm not knocking this product but y'all need to chill and realize that not everyone needs the best of the best of everything considering how expensive this sport already is.
  • 2 5
 @stumphumper92: you ever ridden coil forks? sounds like you got yur first bike when the days of air springs where for everyone... go try that now and then let us know if only racers will notice..
  • 4 1
 @pugafi: Yes.... You know it is possible that people can just ride whatever they want and not worry about what others think? Everybody has a preference. What you consider as top performance may differ from others.
  • 4 0
 @ccollord: sorry to hear that. I think it’s been a few years, but if you remember specifically where you were let down by performance I’d love to know. DM or e-mail me. We’re always looking for ways to improve performance and make everyone stoked. While there are always marginal gains to be had, I’m really happy with where we’re at with current stuff. Cheers
  • 2 8
flag garrisond5 (Aug 6, 2020 at 6:56) (Below Threshold)
 @NoahColorado: You guys could make your brake arch look normal. That would help me be able to even consider your fork. Until then I can't ride around with "backwards" lowers.
  • 5 0
 @garrisond5: Just turn em around, you'll have negative offset to boot.
  • 3 1
 @garrisond5: so you want them to look like every other single fork out there? Huh.
  • 2 1
 @coltybear15: affirmative.
  • 2 2
 @stumphumper92: Or your money could be put into skills and training, both of which would improve your riding more than any component out there.
  • 79 2
 Every Vorsprung product ive owned has been bang on and performed exactly as claimed. All with great customer service. Anyone serious about tinkering with their suspension knows that Vorsprung know thier stuff. So super pleased to see this option.
  • 42 2
 Thank you for the kind words and support, glad to hear you're happy with our products!
  • 7 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: DAMN YOU, I just put the new air spring in my Lyrik (which is actually really good)
But now I want this
  • 3 2
 @Waldon83: from the sounds of it this won’t replace your internals! Just expands your negative chamber! In fact, you could put an MRP ramp control pro in the top and it would all work together (what I’m now considering instead of a new fork; SECUS/RCC combo in my 2018 Lyrik)
  • 1 0
 @Conja: Doesn’t work with the new 2021 C1 Debonair spring.... which is what I put in my Lyrik and went up 10mm to 160.
  • 55 2
 White Brothers called (from 1998 ), they want their lower leg reservoirs back XD

ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb8936838/p4pb8936838.jp
  • 21 0
 Haha yes! BOS also did it with their original Idylle fork.
  • 5 0
 Yessssss. I saw this and was instantly transported back to 2002 when I had a set of red anodised White Brothers DH3s on my Kona Stab. Happy days.
  • 10 0
 m.pinkbike.com/photo/614941

Kept the forks and changed frames.
  • 2 0
 those forks were badass and still look like works of art.
  • 2 0
 @veero: maaaaaaan that Schwill Lawwill design was major envy back in the day! Nicely done.
  • 4 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: weren't those both piggy back reservoirs for the damper?
  • 5 0
 @holmesslice: indeed they were.
  • 1 6
flag 5afety3rd (Aug 4, 2020 at 23:47) (Below Threshold)
 too bad they became mrp
  • 40 1
 The nice thing about Vorsprung doing this, is that while not all of us will jump on it...it will definitely drive innovation with Fox/RS beyond their incremental updates. Plenty of companies in the industry to bag on their products, but Vorsprung isn't one of them. Something tells me they have a heck of a testing "lab" up there as well Smile
  • 7 1
 Exactly. The Luftkape and Corset both pushed the bigger players to consider larger negative chambers. Manitou's IRT influenced the development of adding such features to a wider range of forks with the DSD Runt or SD Component cartridges. Smashpot and ACS3 both might convinced Marzocchi/Fox to add the Z1 Coil.

There is also a strategy at Vorsprung here too: wait to introduce these things to a wider market until you see what the big players are doing. DVO and MRP are in a great position to capitalize on Fox/RS/EXT already showing their hands, and Vorsprung has added another spice for them to add to their future product development recipes.
  • 19 2
 Accountant's opinion: Fox/RS won't do anything and couldn't care less. They make a healthy chunk of change in the OEM and secondary markets with miniscule additional outlay. They're more than happy to leave the expensive R&D and tinkering to the aftermarket and attract the money of the 1% of riders that are spending their money on this.

Same reason a brand like Honda doesn't buy or compete with Greddy, Tein, etc.
  • 2 0
 Naw, Fox is almost guaranteed to never be threatened by a small upstart. You would be shocked by the capital behind the SSG.
  • 20 2
 It's the same in every industry. The small players innovate. The big players buy or copy whatever they need.
  • 2 1
 @slimjimihendrix: Every brand is threatened by somebody tho, Vorsprung almost acts like a prototype shop. Look at what Fox has done with their airspring over the last couple years. It certainly is a lot more like a Luftkappe than the pre-2018 stuff. If this setup works as well as Vorsprung says it does, and I'm confident it does, you'd best believe Fox will be looking to integrate something similar directly into the fork. With every tech, the amount of innovation/performance improvements slowly tapers off as it matures. Any decent company like Fox is interested in something that would be even a small disruption, let alone a game changer.
  • 4 1
 @Svinyard: It also works both ways. Look at the Fox 40 air spring and it's pretty clear to see where Vorsprung got the inspiration for the Luftkappe: cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0349/7357/products/FK1787_b45a7c89-5fc8-4414-a094-9555639b2300_x1024.jpg
  • 3 0
 I think the big players are only concerned with competing with the other big players. Fox doesn't care how good a Lyric is with upgrades(or other way around). Throw a new top cap and decals on it, make up a new acronym for their minor update, wait for consumers to come running waving their cash in the air.
  • 2 1
 I agree, Rockshox/Fox and the rest will innovate their current systems and increase in performance but more importantly ....the price will go BOOM (like their forks are not already ridiculously expensive).

It's a no brainer = Vorsprung.(for now)
  • 2 1
 @Connerv6: This is naive. If the big players don't innovate, they will get destroyed by the other big players. But they have to balance innovation with dependability (regarding product quality and consumer expectation). Fox and RS are not going to leave the "expensive" R&D to the smaller companies. That would be the end of their companies.
  • 1 3
 @rrolly: Go ahead and name the last time Fox/RS came up with something new.
  • 2 0
 @Mondbiker: Almost every year they develop iterations of their systems, whether it be dampers or other internals. They may not be crazy innovations like a Trust fork, but as I said, they need to balance innovation with dependability.
  • 2 4
 @rrolly: They are not innovations in any sense of a word, they are gimmicks sold as upgrades when they are exercise in cost cutting wherever they can. Sorry to burst your bubble.
  • 2 1
 @Dougal-SC: The big players want to innovate from within R&D but are not allowed bring any ideas to market, then the small companies bring out rejected ideas from 5-10 years ago in the larger company R&D department and everyone thinks its innovative and new.

Not speaking from experience there at all....
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: gimmicks huh. Go hammer some laps on an old rlc compared to a grip2 or charger 2.1 and then tell me it’s all just gimmicks. Modern forks are good, obviously there’s always room for new ideas, but you can’t call it all a gimmick just because they don’t reinvent the fork every year.
  • 37 2
 Man. Pinkbike comments section with plenty of hate as usual. This is what innovation looks like! Yes, it costs a chunk of change. Yes, it looks clunky hanging off the bottom of your fork. But these guys are trying to take something and make it better. There are two groups manifest here: those who see a problem and create a solution, and those who sit on the internet and type negative responses to that solution. (Plus people like me, complaining about the complainers!) Sorry to wax philosophical but this is so widespread these days: the masses sitting around criticizing; lobbing complaints at those who are at least in the trenches trying to make a difference. It's cheap and easy to tear something down. It's expensive, difficult, and scary to create something new. Who is making a more valuable contribution?

@VorsprungSuspension I'm hard pressed to pay for it right now, but I'd love to try it.
  • 10 0
 Thanks for the kind words and support. Hopefully one day you get to try one for yourself too!
  • 29 2
 I love all these keyboard engineers trying to talk science with Vorsprung...excellent source of amusement.
  • 2 0
 Hahahaha. "Definitely 0.5mm off, for sure, I can see it. Not only can I see it, but I can feel it."
  • 20 1
 Why no comparison to stock air springs in the force graph, and only a theoretical Hooke's law line? I get that you wouldn't want to upset the OEMs but that would be the baseline right? People aren't converting from a coil to air+Secus, after all.

Also, a Tech Tuesday on the Secus would be cool!
  • 59 1
 There are a few reasons why we didn't publish that comparison:
1. Air spring curves vary hugely depending on setup (pressure/volume spacers and fork config) so there would be virtually infinite possible curves along with a ton of different ways that you might interpret an "equivalent" (same sag, same average spring rate, same mid stroke spring rate, same bottoming force, same energy absorption) for each fork.
2. We're in a position to legitimately compare it to a coil spring (the linear one) so it didn't necessarily make sense to just compare it to a stock air spring curve that is for all intents and purposes a worse performer than a coil.

Thanks for the suggestion - we may do a tech video on it for anyone interested.
  • 57 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: do the video! Do the video!
  • 2 1
 Here you go.

ibb.co/RzmsgWH

As you can see it's pretty close to a 3 chamber dorado, hence my scepticism above. However technically Mr Vorsprung is correct, it is flatter at 40 than 10.

It will make a big difference to a more normal spring though.
  • 2 1
 @VorsprungSuspension: It would be pretty simple, and useful for potential customers, to do a comparison with the same 2020 Lyrik 180mm at 120psi(!) as in the coil comparison graph above. Your customer for this upgrade isn't coming from a coil fork so the comparison to standard air would make more sense.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Just for the pleasure to listen and learn, I would watch indeed.
  • 2 0
 @bacondoublechee: yeah but that's sort of the point - it isn't comparable to a 2020 Lyrik 180mm at 120psi. That'd be an unrealistic comparison because the Secus uses significantly higher pressures, so that 120psi would be more relevant to someone running 100psi. So then we need to look at what would be the most equivalent way to set up the comparison. Do you want these characteristics to be the same in terms of:
1. Same sag
2. Same bottoming force
3. Same average spring rate
4. Same mid-stroke spring rate
5. Same energy absorption - and if so, at what combination of pressures and volumes

Because if you set it up to be the same for any one of those, all the others will differ significantly, because the spring curve is significantly different.
  • 18 1
 *Cue Xzibit*
  • 55 0
 We heard you like air spring chambers so we put air spring chambers on your air spring chambers.
  • 10 0
 @PHeller: actually 100% true hahah
  • 5 0
 @PHeller: I def read this with Xzibits voice in my head
  • 2 0
 Someone ples run this with the chickadee hill set-up for maximum air chambers www.chickadeehill.de
  • 1 0
 @bengtleon: Re: Chickadeehill - It's the same thing as the DSD Runt and SD Components cartridges which Manitou has been doing for decades.
  • 2 0
 @PHeller: the level of engineering on that show was about the same as the average PB commenter...

That made me laugh out loud - ty
  • 13 1
 I am waiting for a Vorsprung fork. With their suspension expertise, imagine how amazing would be a fork that they built from scratch!
  • 5 0
 Finally, a solution that does what it's saying it's doing. What Big boys' air-crusade has only been saying for decades, this small company actually solved and delivered to the market! Big respect!
My bad I still keep upgrading old Lyrik coil :-). Would love to compare it with "this linear air" and modern damper.
  • 5 0
 Thanks for the kind words. We're stoked that we managed to impress you, of all people!
  • 5 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: nothing but good comments for your company. Reminds me of WeAreOne. Makes me proud of BC and all you guys doing real good work to make our backyard more fun! Thanks!
  • 4 0
 In theory, would it be possible to run the air and damper sides swapped so that the Secus can be placed on the side that does not have a brake caliper? Having pulled forks apart, I would think this answer is yes, but maybe there is a small difference that I am not considering?
  • 15 0
 Generally speaking no - the lowers (and sometimes stanchions) in many forks are of differing lengths, and the air side of singlecrown forks has an equalization dimple that the damper side doesn't. Fox also use different size footbolts for the damper side and spring side.
  • 5 0
 Sadly, thats not really a realistic option for most people.

The air spring side for most forks has an equalization dimple to equalize the pressure between the positive and negative air chambers of the air spring. The damper side doesn't have those.

So you could do it, but you'd have to swap the stanchions as well. So yeah.. kind of possible, but not really an option unless "swapping stanchions" sounds like an afternoon project.
  • 1 0
 @ocnlogan: Rsf suspension specialists would probably do it, along with some other companies with the tools to do so...
Don't think it's worth it though
  • 11 0
 @ocnlogan: just run the lowers backwards and get out ahead of the pack for that sweet negative offset


jk don't do that
  • 3 0
 @freestyIAM:

Maybe I could keep the lowers oriented normally... but then flip the crown around Razz .

I mean, that would give you some incredibly long trail numbers, but from a damper/spring perspective, it would totally work.
  • 4 0
 Having it on the brake caliper side is probably a good idea, as there's no way it could rotate into the wheel, as the caliper is in the way
  • 2 0
 @freestyIAM: You're on to something here! #FridayDIYfails
  • 3 0
 @rrolly: Fails? How is that a fail? No no no, this this is the future!
  • 1 0
 @ocnlogan: I did that a few years ago. It didn't feel bad at all. Steering was a little slower but felt good going downhill. I didn't leave it very long but seems I was an innovator even though people laughed at me.
  • 8 1
 When is @VorsprungSuspension just gonna make their own complete fork instead of augmenting others? Smile
  • 10 7
 Disappointed there's no cutaways or diagrams on how the actual system works. The press release says the claims its the best spring ever can be backed up, but other than a single graph there's nothing at all here or on the site.
  • 60 1
 You are correct. Currently we need to protect some IP Smile
  • 4 4
 @VorsprungSuspension: I wonder how long it will be before they are available on Taobao for $6.28.
  • 2 27
flag Happymtbfr (Aug 4, 2020 at 12:04) (Below Threshold)
 @VorsprungSuspension: how can you have IP to protect if BOS did it before you?
Anyhow, I like your tributes to French suspensions! Smile
  • 20 1
 @Happymtbfr: they had an external nitrogen-charged reservoir for their damper which used (I believe) the original Stoy base valve/reservoir assembly. The Secus is on the spring side though. It's not the fact that it's external that constitutes the relevant IP, that was just a packaging necessity for this particular unit.
  • 6 9
 @VorsprungSuspension: I see. I guess you had to come up with something slightly different that would fit different strokes.
Great job from you bringing innovation to suspension and pushing the big brands to improve in order to keep up with you!
  • 3 0
 “Trust us.” [Hands over black box.]
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Based on some hints in this thread and the installation instructions I can guess how this works.
  • 4 1
 Have we mentioned enough how rad Vorsprung and Steve are? Always helpful. Always entertaining the armchair engineers among us. My smashpot is a beautiful thing. This makes me want to buy another fork I don’t need just so I can fit it on there!! ????
  • 3 0
 Steve I met you in Rotorua some time in January and we rode some trails together. I saw the prototype of this on your bike and asked you about it. You told me it was a counterweight... ha ha.... I was happy to accept that as an explanation as I knew you would want to protect whatever tech you were working on. So stoked to finally see what it was you had cooking, and pretty keen to try one! Great stuff man.
  • 4 0
 Good idea - i'm interested. I imagine this would also help reduce brake dive a bit without reducing small bump sensitivity compared to a normal air spring
  • 4 0
 It does indeed help with that - behaves a lot more like a coil spring in terms of spring rate for that initial sensitivity as well as offering better mid-late stroke support.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension I'm keen to hear more about the comment you made about the 2021 Debonair spring:

"Not currently recommended for use with 2021 Debonair C1 shafts due to inadequate topout control and incorrect overall length"

I have the new parts fitted to my 2020 Lyrik, and it seems fine other than I suspect the lubricant (3ml) in the air spring is making its way through to the lower. Gets a feeling of friction to it that goes away if I open up the air spring and add a little oil or rest the bike upside down (and cycle the legs).
  • 3 0
 The C1 shafts reduce negative chamber volume and reduce the shaft's ability to extend beyond the equalisation port, and to account for that they extend the footstud not the shaft, so that the overall length remains the same, however if you install a Secus on that it'll effectively shorten the shaft. The B1 shafts work much better with the much larger negative volume of the Secus.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: I can't seem to visualize the diff between the B1 and C1 well enough to understand the rational. Think you could cover that when you Tuesday Tune spotlight the Secus?
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: I recently changed the B1 shaft to the 2021 C1 on my Lyrik, also upping the travel from 170mm to 180mm. My question is, could I use my 180mm C1 shaft with the old B1 sealhead to install the Secus? As far as I understand that would essentially make it a 180mm B1 shaft so it should be good to go, but I just wanted to confirm?
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension what's the reason this won't work with the 2021 RS Debonair air spring? Mechanically, I don't see issues. Does it result in a spring curve that's undesirable?

Also, a bit of a tangent but many people are preferring the Rockshox 2021 air spring (myself included), finding it more supportive than the previous Debonair spring without excess harshness you'd expect when reducing the negative spring volume. Are people who like the new air spring just wrong/uninformed, or is there anything in the new air spring you'd identify as improved?
  • 2 0
 Edit: I just saw your response above about the Secus shortening the air shaft, which won't work well with the new air spring. I am still curious to hear you thoughts on why some people are liking the new air spring better when on paper it's a step backwards.
  • 9 0
 @DMal: it will physically work, but it'll shorten the travel by some not insignificant distance. It will also hit the topout bumper a bit harder since they deleted the pneumatic topout, and there are already a couple of reports out there of people noticing topout noise with the C1 shafts.

A lot of people do like the reduced sag of the 2021 shafts because it results in a higher static ride height (which is often noticed most as an increase in bar height) even if it does actually dive further from the sag point under brakes for example, but this is basically a form of correcting geometric concerns by altering the spring rate curve, which isn't what we'd typically recommend. Geometric concerns should be addressed directly with geometric adjustments (ie fork length and bar height), and suspension behaviour concerns should be addressed with suspension adjustments. Otherwise you end up compromising one or both to try to fix the other.
  • 6 1
 @DMal

I'm experiencing huge increase in harshness with the 2021 spring. They suggest keeping pressures the same, but that's insane. I went down from 105 psi to 95, it's better but still harsh. I very dislike the upgrade.

This spring literally hurts more: riding trails 2 miles from my house that I've ridden hundreds of times, and my shoulders are all of a sudden sore after even a quick ride with this spring. Of course it rides higher, its a way firmer spring rate, even with less pressure. But if I go much lower on pressure, I don't get enough support in the middle to push against and traction goes away. I'd rather ride the 2014 Float 32 130mm on my hardtail!

I'm done with this silliness, going back to Fox: 2019 Factory 36 GRIP2 160 on the way that cannot arrive soon enough. There will be a Pike RC 150 with the C spring already installed and the B parts included, with ~300 miles on it and 2 oil changes, in the BuySell real soon now!
  • 5 0
 @DMal: I think it's like why roadies have been slow to move towards the proven faster wide tires: because a 23c at 110psi "feels fast" only because it rattles you all over the place. Same with this silly spring: it beats you up more, front wheel breaks traction more, etc. You think it's because you're going faster, but its really because the spring is way too stiff.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Sorry to be off-topic, but could you give a quick explanation as to why the new debonair spring dives further under braking? Is it due to the reduced negative chamber?

I read all the glowing reviews of the new spring and, as a proper mountain biker with an insatiable need to be told I need new stuff, I put it in my fork. And the fork become noticeably 'divey'. Naturally, I assumed I was just setting up my fork incorrectly or that I just need to learn to ride a bike. Particularly given that it was claimed to ride higher up in the travel with the new spring. Either way, I went back to the old spring.
  • 2 0
 @shlotch: My take - the new air spring runs better at lower air pressures to not feel overly harsh, which will reduce support deeper in the stroke. At the same air pressure, the new air spring should not dive any more than the old one.
  • 4 1
 @shlotch: Basically yes. Larger negative chambers do two things that reduce brake dive from the sag point (though you do have more sag to begin with) - one is that they permit higher pressures, and the other is that the negative chamber has influence further into the travel. Because it had more volume to begin with, it's experiencing more significant pressure drop later in the travel, which increases the effective spring rate in the middle of the travel.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Thank you for the clear explanation. Makes perfect sense.
  • 1 0
 @just6979:
I agree to some extent. It feels harsh when you are on your saddle.
I ended up running 62 psi instead instead of 80 recommended with one volume spacer inside, 8 clicks of lsc from fully open, 1 click of hsc from fully open, 9 clicks of rebound from slow.
Like I have said in my first statement, it is harsh when you sit on the saddle. As soon as I'm out of it and I, basically, sag the fork, it transforms itself in the plushes thing I've ever ridden; it makes my 2018 and 2019 factory 36s look like a low lvl suntour.

What I did initially wrong was to try and keep the lsc as open as possible, thinking that if I add more than 1-2 clicks, I will ruin the plush-ness. In fact, none of that happ. In fact, I may actually increase 1 or 2 clicks, depending on the trail.

So, just do a good set-up on it and don't expect the plushness of the top like the prev. model. I mean, it is of the top; just that this of the top is after the sag point.
  • 1 0
 @just6979:
One more thing to clarify:
Reco for me is 80 psi, no volume spacer, at 170mm fork.
I run 1 volume spacer and 62 psi.

If you have 160mm of travel on your fork, then you probably must put two.
For 150mm, three.

Cheers and sorry for stealing the thread a little.
  • 1 0
 @eugenux: I hear you on the body position having an effect, but that's true of any fork, to a certain extent. Thing is, a 2016 Float 36 160 does a better job at both: plush in the saddle but gave something to push against when standing. Even the DebonAir B did, except it had a slightly lower static ride height, except no big deal, get a higher rise bar and enjoy the traction.
  • 1 0
 @just6979:
My 2018 fit4, coming from a 2016 lyrik, was diving waaaay too much. I started fiddling with and, at one point, in order to compensate for the increased dive and the lack of smoothness of the top, ended up with 4 orange volume spacers. That was almost mimicking the feel of my '16 lyrik but I never managed to use more than 140mm of travel(from 180) due to the insane progressivness. I finally settled on 3, with 2 hsc, 4 lsc, both from open and 5 of rebound from slow. Still, with this set-up, I never managed to bottom out the fork, always remaining with 10-12 mm of travel untouched. Grip 2 was better, only needing 2 volume spacers.
My '21 lyrik, in the current set-up blows them to the sun. But it does have that harsh-ness at the beginning of the travel. Even the foxes were smoothere there. As soon as I am in the pedals and out of the saddle, it becomes the best fork I've ever ridden. It so good it puts my super-deluxe to shame, making me think I should get a coil or to have again a float x2 on my bike.
  • 1 0
 @eugenux: " in order to compensate for the increased dive and the lack of smoothness of the top, ended up with 4 orange volume spacers. [...] but I never managed to use more than 140mm of travel(from 180) due to the insane progressivness."

Well, yeah, no shit you're not using all the the travel with all of the spacers. And 10mm left "unused" on a 180mm fork? Who cares? It's a tiny bit of extra cushion to save you if you screw up a line or a landing. You're still using 170mm!

Dives too much but doesn't use all the travel? Remove spacers and increase pressure.

And super confused: you said the Lyrik is harsh off the top, but the Fox was smoother, but then you also said the Fox with Fit4 had lack of smoothness of the top...

Also, I'm not talking about harsh from 0mm into the travel, thought the C spring sucks at that too, I'm talking about near sag, whether sitting or standing. At ~100 kg, Pike RC 150 with C spring, 1 spacer, 95 psi, it literally leaves me hurting, while the B spring or a Float spring on the same trails does not bother my shoulders and wrists. Less pressure (for more comfort) means shite support and a loss of front traction, where the other springs manage to be both comfortable _and_ supportive.

The tradeoff of static ride height with the C spring is not worth it. Get a higher rise bar if "too low static ride height" and/or "excessive dive" is an issue with B or other springs.

(Yes, I know mountain biking is supposed to be hard and not necessarily comfortable, but there is a difference between working hard vs getting beat up by the bike.)
  • 1 0
 @just6979:

Hi man. It is incorrect to remove a spacer when a fork dives too much. What I did was adding 3 from zero and decrease the PSI. What I optained was a near similar feel with the 2016 Lyrik.

The 2021, with the set-up I have, basically 18 PSI less than recomended, it is harsh from zero travel(feels like I have put much more PSI than I should have) to near sag but, after that is the best fork I ever had. Just last weekend I did a 18kms down the hill trail from a mountain crest to the village in the valley..no hands problem, no problem anywhere. It gave me such confidence that I took some risks I never took in previous years on that route/traill. It was sublime. And my hands(wrists) are weak as a boilled spaghetti.

The foxes were more smooth until sag. I could hit a kerb at 90 degrees no problem sitting on my saddle and the response was smooth. On the run though, something was always missing and despite days of testing it, working through diff set-ups and fifdling with on the side of the trail, the end result was never than 90% satisfactorily.
This new lyrik..10-15 minutes for the first set-up then another 15 for the current version. I tried to cure the harshness from zero to sag but I was unsuccessfull. It does not really matter as I am more than impressed with how the fork works from sag to full travel.
Tbh, it puzzels me how you can have such a harsh ride with only one volume spacer when, in fact, from the factory, for 150mm it comes stock with two already inserted to counteract the positive-negative volume chamber changed ratio.
If I understood correctly what VorsprungSuspension said, then the C1 increased the positive chamber. Before you throw off your fork, I would suggest adding 2 more volume spacers and lower the PSI even more, anywhere between 18-to-20 PSI more. You have nothing to lose by doing that, correct?
  • 2 0
 @eugenux: it is absolutely correct to remove volume reducer when the fork is diving and add more pressure. Pressure = mid stroke, volume reducers= end stroke ramp up.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker:
You can increase pressure without removing the volume spacer.

A volume spacer does not only affects the end part of the travel; it affects every part of the travel. The avantage is that, for the same lvl of mid-support, you can have a smoother first part by lowering the PSI.
  • 1 0
 @eugenux: Volume spacers don´t affect anything else than last 1/3 of travel in any significant way. Sure you can pump up the fork more with any number of tokens, the issue is it will render end of the travel useless if you already had it set up to use full travel in the first place.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker:
I kindly disagree. Any volume spacer will change the positive-negative ratio; thus, it will have an effect on all fork travel. The more spacers you put, the higher the effect. That is why you can sense an increase in mid-support even from only one spacer

It is a progressive curve, not a straigth line with a 90 degrees up in the 2/3 of the travel, as per your description.
  • 1 0
 @eugenux:

Yes, it is a curve, but reducing the volume of the main chamber really doesn't have very much effect in the beginning 2/3rds of the travel. This is where the idea of the the "wall of force" comes from: air springs ramp _rapidly_ at the end. The smaller the overall positive chamber, the faster it ramps, but it still doesn't really ramp much until that last 1/3.

Yes, technically adding spacers and keeping PSI the same will increase the spring force slightly around 50% travel, but not very much. The main bonus of adding spacers is being able to reduce pressure to get low starting force while maintaining ending force. Removing spacers will require more pressure to maintain the final ending force, which also adds force to the beginning _and_ the middle.

The only way to significantly increase the midstroke spring force is by adding positive pressure _OR_ getting the negative spring to have more influence further into the travel by making it larger (which also allows/requires higher positive pressures, so double bonus). This is the whole point of the Corset, EVOL, DebonAir, MegNeg, and now Secus (though Secus has other pluses as well): allow increased pressure, for midstroke support, without making beginning stroke too harsh.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Is there a significant difference between the secus with a larger volume negative chamber and a system that lets you independently control the negative air pressure such the Helm and Ribbon air. I would imagine that they are similar except in systems where you can add more pressure you are actually slightly reducing the travel.
  • 3 0
 Yes, they are pretty different - negative air pressure can't really be varied too much (for a given fork with a given positive pressure), otherwise you either get distinct topout/preload or it begins to reduce in travel. Chamber volume however can be varied hugely depending on the curve you're trying to achieve.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Thanks for the fast reply!
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: on the topic of the Helm, is the manual pos/neg air adjust configuration the reason the secus isn't compatible with this fork?
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension can I ask if there was any benefit to having a second attachment or contact point between the top of the Secus and the fork leg? Say something like a screw clamp or zip tie around both with an elastomer bushing between the can and the leg. I'd think it would help with reducing torque loads or vibration fatigue on the foot stud but appreciate you've put a lot of thought into it already.
  • 2 0
 So as a guy that has a lot of faith in Vorsprung I have 300 miles on a Secus so far. I have Smashpot, Tractive and Lufftkappe.

I am running a 2020 Pike Ultimate 140mm on a Evil Following MB.

I have a Helm coil on my HT and a Smashpot on the front of my Enduro.

Going to air was a deliberate decision as this is a trail bike, weight and feel both pointed to air.

So I just couldn't get on with the Pike in standard form. I'm 90kg in kit and ride pretty hard on very mixed terrain.

The fork was sucking into its travel by 10mm which was ok, i'd allowed for that but the lack of mid stroke was very evident and I had to run 3 tokens to get the pressure dropped enough to give good grip on the wet roots etc I ride often.

Enter the Secus.

Fitting was straightward, the fork was as ever pretty dry and poorly lubed from the factory.

Aired up the Secus to around 20% higher pressure than before, opened all the compression up and set the rebound in the middle of the park.

Firstly, the ride height was high, too high in fact and the initial sensitivity wasn't quite as soft as expected, good and controlled but not as soft as I had imagined. Support through the stroke was too high to. I had trouble driving the fork into the ground for grip.

I started to drop pressure around 3psi a time.... once at around 12% more pressure than before it is now sweet.

The ride height is a little lower, the initial sensitivity is superb, not soft but easy to initiate and grip is excellent. I run 4 clicks out on LSC or 2 if its wet on the chalk and clay here. The longed for mid stroke support is spot on, I love how I can leave it late in a turn and then force the front in hard and it grips, supports and just pushes back as you come off the front... flipping brilliant. Getting near full travel in a smooth controlled manner. I now have a token plus a Neapo glued to it.

Overall.... another great product from Vorsprung.
  • 2 0
 Damn, I'm curious to see this thing in action. Are the Vorsprung tech talks back on youtube? Just from a nerd curiosity I'd love to see a deep-dive on this and the other cool vorsprung products.
  • 5 0
 We might indulge you on that at some point!
  • 1 0
 With the heat build up at the front brake, is there any effect beyond what the fork would experience when heated up on lengthy dh runs that might take away from its positive effects.

If not & minus a few extra grams, it looks like a great and cheaper way to get close to what EXT has done with their fork.
  • 1 0
 Nothing significant - there isn't (shouldn't be) direct contact between the caliper and the Secus, and it would only have the effect of heating up the air volume connected to the lower legs (ie not the main parts of the air spring).
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension

Very cool idea to utilize the pressure build-up in the lower to create a variable-volume negative air spring. I like the concept and I'm sure it feels interesting to say the least!

One thing that is conspicuously absent in this article is that the rider must run 20% more air pressure in their fork. Probably should have been mentioned. It won't be a viable option for large riders like myself, I would be well into the not-manufacturer-recommended pressure range. For the brave, manufacturer safety factors may help with that issue. Either way, hats off to you for solving a difficult air spring conundrum
  • 2 0
 This is true - if you're within 20% of max rated pressure, you should not install the Secus. This is actually mentioned in the FAQ on our website - vorsprungsuspension.com/products/secus-air-spring-upgrade.
  • 1 0
 Probably a dumb question, but what’s the advantage vs a progressive coil? The curves Cane Creek and others seem to advertise for progressive springs look similar to this. Fully admit that I’m a suspension idiot and probably missing something.
  • 1 0
 Lighter, more adjustable, adjustable progression, and a significantly larger amount of progression. It's actually quite tricky to get significant progression from a coil - there are some progressive springs on the market for example that only actually increase the bottoming force by about 5% over dead linear.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: ah, that makes sense. Thanks.
  • 1 0
 There's a lot about what it does but less about what it actually is or how it works...Ok as best as I can tell, based on the 2 holes in the base stud in the install guide, this enlarges the negative air spring volume (through the neg air volume of the shaft itself) to increase the suppleness of the fork at the beginning of the stroke, then as the fork compresses it uses the pressure build-up of the lower legs to close a valve that cuts off that increased neg air volume to let the positive chamber ramp up as intended... Similar to a reverse MRP ramp control but modifying the neg volume spring rate instead. Using the pressure build-up of the lowers to open and close the increased volume of the neg chamber?
  • 1 0
 Not a bad guess, but not quite what it does.
  • 1 1
 @VorsprungSuspension: Could you offer a more detailed explanation of what's happening internally for the suspension nerds out here? It looks to be a clever piece of kit... but could you break it down for us?
  • 4 0
 @astro99: you're too smart for me to be handing over that info just now sorry Smile we'll be able to openly discuss it at some point in the not too distant future.
  • 1 0
 Very steampunk-looking...I like the look of it at least. Although I can't say I'd buy one because of the terrain I ride but maybe if I was hitting parks and flow lines a lot. I'd imagine there may be a slight advantage for a 29 front wheel since less potential for damage being higher than 27.5 or 26...
  • 1 0
 "The Secus is the first and only air spring system in a fork where the spring rate at 40mm travel is actually higher than it is at 10mm travel."
Don't all air spring inherrently do this? Air piston moves through its stroke, +ve volume decreases, thus spring rate increases.
  • 2 0
 Not as such no - the initial spring rate is dominated by the drop in pressure on the negative side of the air piston, because in the early travel the positive spring pressure doesn’t change all that much. Controlling the negative chamber pressure is required in order to ensure the early stroke doesn’t feel overly stiff.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension Currently running a Luftkappe in a Pike which turned it into a really good fork, love your products! My question is regarding stiction. Even with the Luftkappe, if I'm not on top of the lubrication schedule the fork can get sticky and require more breakaway force to activate movement. Granted the Secus has a Coil like spring curve, but if lubrication schedule is not maintained by the book, will a coil ultimately still win the smoothness/sensitivity award? Does the massive increase in negative chamber size influence breakaway force enough to negate poor maintenance?
  • 2 0
 Coils will always win that fight. Air springs invariably become stickier when they aren't lubricated well, the Secus doesn't alter that. The spring rate curve with the Secus is hard to argue with, but the maintenance of the air spring still needs to be kept up as per any other air spring. Sounds like you want a Smashpot rather than a Secus!
  • 1 0
 @vorsprungsuspension maybe I missed it, and if so, I appollogize. How does the performance of this compare to the Luftkappe? Kind of the same effect, but "more" of it? Is it a matter of the Luftkappe is the economy option, and this is the better performing expensive option? I'm about to buy one of the two for my Fox 36, and looking for as much input as possible. Thanks!
  • 2 2
 The Secus is the first and only air spring system in a fork where the spring rate at 40mm travel is actually higher than it is at 10mm travel.

I assume he only means 2 chamber air spring.

3 Chambers don't.

Care to clarify @vorsprung?

Compare for example to a dorado set at 180?
  • 6 0
 Nope, still true of 3 chamber air springs (assuming you mean 2 pos and 1 neg). The initial spring rate on those always starts high and drops off because in the initial travel, the spring rate at any instant is primarily dependent on the proportional rate of expansion of the negative chamber at that point - as the negative chamber gets bigger during compression, the spring rate necessarily drops until the ramp from the positive chamber becomes sufficiently progressive later on to reverse the spring curve. This is true whether you have one or two positive chambers. The MSV negates that effect so that you can have the benefits of a very large negative chamber without the same disadvantages.
  • 3 1
 @VorsprungSuspension: I've just checked my sums, you are unsurprisingly correct.

Choosing 10 and 40 were key numbers to chose.
However, I'd have chosen the two figures that best reflected my idea too =)

I've not taken in to account the pressures in the lowers, which might just push it past with a Mattoc/Mezzer, however, what'd be the point in trying to prove one counter-example when it's clear your design would make a massive difference on a two-chamber fork which is what most riders are on anyway.

How much volume does it add?
  • 8 0
 @cavegiant: it adds exactly 69 milliunicorns of volume Smile

Double-positive chamber designs do definitely improve the mid stroke support while avoiding crazy end stroke ramp, no doubt (IRT/Runt/SD/Doppio/ATA/TALAS1/Formula's thing/EXT's thing/Ohlins' thing/AWK are all variants of the exact same idea) by creating a digression in the spring curve somewhere around the middle of the travel. However, until the second chamber enters fluid communication with the first (ie pressures are equal), they behave the same as a normal single-positive air spring of a much smaller volume. This has only a small benefit to the initial spring rate because the positive chamber/s just don't affect it that much.

Lowers pressure is really significant on some forks, and less significant on others. On a 160mm Pike for example you can get nearly 50lbs (23kgf/230N approx) of force coming from the lowers by bottom out. That's a huge amount if you only weigh say 100lbs.
  • 3 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Is that an African or European Unicorn?

To get that 10/40 to work in my Dorado with my normal settings you would need to have the negative chamber 25% larger than the primary. That's a ton of milliunicorns.

I can see this making a huge difference on fox/RS stuff with their weird springs.

You now have me wanting to modify the ratio of my primary/secondary.

If I lower to 155 then the ratios all look good.

Do you know if the 29er air shaft is longer than the 650b one (and do you sell one if so)?

Any other ways of lowering the piston by about 30mm you can think of?
  • 4 0
 @cavegiant: non-migratory or migratory unicorn?

I'm not the requisite source of information on Dorado air shaft parts sorry - I'd contact your local Manitou distributor about that.
  • 7 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Migratory?

For mythical migratory equines, you may be getting confused with a pegasus?

If you can't even tell the difference between your magical horses I not sure I'd trust your measurement systems.

Good day to you sir.

p.s. Good idea.
  • 5 0
 I would appreciate it if you two would stop discussing me when I am not present. Kthxbai.
  • 2 1
 The Dorado is I think the only exception to the claims Steve has made. The three chamber single crown forks are all robbing peter to pay paul in the air volume game. So I worded the listing on my site to be about single crown forks.
  • 2 0
 @cavegiant: You Guys must pick shrooms from the same place.
  • 3 2
 Some of you clearly weren't around for the inverted White Bros DH3 with the piggy back off the bottom of the damper and it shows, One of the most reliable, solid forks from back in the day and it was fine.
  • 2 0
 This is for the air spring not the damper
  • 4 0
 @diegosk: I think he's addressing the concerns about putting an extra part there and means that people weren't snapping piggybacks off old DH3s left and right. Forks using this kind of form factor also exist in motorcross and again, people don't snap the reservoirs off those; motocrossactionmag.com/amp/super-tech-the-differences-in-fork-technology
  • 2 0
 @diegosk: and yet it's in the same location. If you're not smashing your fork lowers or brake calipers it should be fine.
  • 2 0
 Hopefully we'll get full review of this. It has some big claims, but if they hold, it would be a gamechanger. As I understand it, you just hook it up and that's it?
  • 3 0
 You need to replace the footstud on the air shaft, but yes it's basically a matter of installing that, installing the Secus body onto the footstud, putting air in it and equalizing as per normal, pressing a button and going riding.
  • 1 0
 Why is this "expanded" negative chamber not connected to the bottom of the fork with a hose? It could give a better placement above the brake body and therefore out way of heat and not standing out as much.
  • 1 0
 We looked at that originally, however upon modeling it we found that it would have been considerably heavier and caused more protrusion from the footstud, because there are actually two connections in the Secus and that would have necessitated two hoses stacked one on top of the other.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Thanks for the explanation!
  • 2 0
 What is it to say that the initial spring rate is the same but the friction is still higher? Is that a matter of fresh service smootheness over time? O
  • 2 0
 Air springs have moving seals that create friction, that isn't present in coil springs. The Secus is no different in that regard - we are using the stock air pistons/shafts/sealheads, so the air spring friction doesn't change. With a coil spring like the Smashpot, the air spring seals no longer exist, so there is no friction to come from the spring side anymore.
  • 1 0
 So the only thing I'm curious about is, why not make it longer and skinnier so it doesnt bulge out past the profile of the fork more? I'm sure theres a reasoning to it. But seems like a no brainer to me....
  • 3 0
 We did look at that, but it gets heavier and quite a bit weaker, because you can put a fair bit more twisting load on the footstud (which is the weak point of the system - it will bend first) if you were to hit it higher up. Also gets more expensive, more difficult and slower to make, which obviously pushes the price up further. It's already not pocket change for most riders so we're quite sensitive to that.
  • 4 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: sweet! Nice reply guys. I love when companies are actually first hand interactive with their clientele! Props.
  • 1 0
 Sucks that this won't fit Fox fork with a footnut on spring side that is recessed. My 2019 Fox 34 Performance is recessed. Do you plan on coming out with an adapter or something in the future to fit more forks?
  • 1 0
 If the recess is less than 5mm (eg Fox 38, maybe also your 34 but you'd have to measure), yes we'll have an answer for you soonish. More than that and the footstud becomes too weak - and seriously difficult to make.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Looks to be about 1cm on my fork. Oh well! Maybe next fork Razz
  • 2 0
 my luftkappe was the best thing I ever did to any suspension fork I've ever owned. every word of the marketing was spot on for that one, so defo want to try this thing.
  • 1 0
 Pretty bonkers stuff. It's Vorsprung though, so I imagine it does exactly what it says on the tin. I've got a smashpot that I love and can't see myself moving away from that anytime soon though.
  • 1 0
 @vorsprungSuspension: When you have a coil spring type curve can you run a stiffer spring (rate) AND get better traction than on a similar overall air spring curve (one that’s more of steep/flat/steep curve)?
  • 2 0
 My order is in. Always stoked to see @VorsprungSuspension roll out with new products. It's safe to assume that whatever you had will be made better by Steve and his crew.
  • 1 0
 How on earth does this work? I remove the foot bolt from air springs all the time without releasing the air chamber pressure and nothing ever comes out.
  • 3 0
 Because current generation air springs utilize the volume inside the air shaft as part of the negative chamber volume, we replace the foot stud of the air shaft itself and connect to the air spring via that.
  • 3 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: sneaky. Any worries of the bigger players trying to block off the air shaft?
  • 3 0
 @PHeller: they may well, but they'd be shooting themselves in the foot to do so because it would significantly reduce their negative chamber sizes to go back to an air shaft whose internal volume isn't incorporated into the air spring. Our products obviously will have to evolve over time too as the fitments change.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Could you just design your own air spring for each brand? That way you can simply drop in a better air cylinder instead of trying to retrofit and keep up with the big brands designs?

Also, have you explored releasing your own fork?
  • 1 1
 Read the paper/thesis on this a few months back. Very interesting read. Cant find it now but had a lot of detail. Didn't think it was commercially viable based the conclusion but here we are.
  • 14 0
 There's a paper/thesis on this?
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:090868c

Its actually a more basic system and described differently with different end goals.

Still interesting read and a lot achieved for a thesis.
  • 2 0
 @gaffney92: Ah yes, I have read that - it's a hydraulic bottom out controller. Nothing to do with the air spring or the Secus.
  • 3 0
 A compelling reason for larger axles in the front again?
  • 3 0
 Just make a fork already.
  • 2 0
 With all this talk of it being susceptible to damage, has anybody considered that it might keep you from crashing your bike?
  • 1 0
 Have you guys considered making STL files so people can 3D print spacers to go between their fork lower and the piggy back reservoir to increase durability?
  • 2 0
 We did also consider that, however it won't actually achieve much. The system can flex enough to contact the fork lower directly for support. If you are interested in going that route though, it would be relatively simple to measure up and print.
  • 1 2
 lotta respect for Vorpsrung....but i still cannot for the life of me work out why people want coil like feel and performance yet DONT BUY A COIL FORK.

WTF are these people smoking??

Want coil; buy coil. Want air; buy air. Want air but want then want coil done less well and your warranty voided; buy a conversion kit for your air forks HAHAAAAA
  • 2 0
 Weight and infinite adjustability.
  • 2 0
 Conversions are ideal for the vast majority of bikes out there that come stock with RockShox or Fox forks. Coil and Air are not exclusive from hybrid options either as we can see with the new EXT fork which is air and coil intentionally. If you read what Vorsprung was actually doing you'd understand the whole point of these options. You're implying that there are only two options that people want; either/or. In fact people don't necessarily all want just air or just coil, they want solutions that work for there riding style and terrain. Smashpot, ACS3 (and Avalanche options) offer hybrid systems that work really well as augmentations for stock forks people ALREADY own. For springs: top-end, mid and bottom-out all require different solutions which optimize each stage; we are starting to see many great options to UPGRADE stock forks. Secus is pretty ingenious way to create a much plusher, increased effective travel and optimized fork as a non-destructive add-on that can move bike to bike. AS with any upgrade option, there are always pros and cons to coil or air, but combining these in clever ways or just enhancing them make everyone's life more enjoyable. That's WTF people are smoking.
  • 1 0
 Very happy with my Luft Klappe on the Fox 36 Performance. Made a huge difference to small bump sensitivity and general liveliness of the fork.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Won´t the heat of the brake caliper affect the Secus?
  • 2 0
 No, even when you really cook the front brake it doesn't increase the temp of the Secus enough that you can feel any difference by touch, let alone in terms of ride characteristics.
  • 2 0
 So how does this work with forks with bleeder valves? Do they change the dynamics at all?
  • 2 0
 Is that see-kus, or see-sus, or seck-us?
  • 1 0
 It's a Latin vocabulary-building exercise. I wish Destination Canada would bankroll Vorsprung to make a complete airsprung fork, but it's probably a lot tougher business than going alongside, differently.
  • 20 0
 @ceecee: it's also a HUGE undertaking. We have the benefit of working with forks that are already actually exceptionally well made in nearly every aspect. That gives us the freedom to pick what we want to work on, without having to worry about a ton of the other stuff that Fox/RS etc already do exceptionally (that really goes quite unappreciated) like how incredible the lower leg castings are at maximising stiffness and minimising weight. Those things are really expensive and difficult to develop and we don't really see a huge amount of point in just duplicating work that's already been done very well.
  • 2 1
 Succubus
  • 3 2
 honest question, is this better than having a properly custom tuned damper ?
  • 3 0
 For most people it'll make more of an improvement than damper tuning. However, spring modifications don't directly address damper concerns, and likewise damper tuning can't address concerns with the spring. The system as a whole has to be considered, but the reason we've focused primarily on spring tuning compared to damper tuning with forks is that the forces involved in the spring are much higher than the damping forces typically, so there's more ground to be gained there.
  • 1 1
 @VorsprungSuspension: is there any way to fit this to a 2016 Fox 36?
  • 2 0
 @PB-J: it'll physically work, but your travel will be elongated by about 3-4mm. That means if you're running the fork at the max travel it's designed for (which can also depend on your damper cartridge config) it may cause the cartridge to top out on itself or insufficient bushing overlap. In other words, wouldn't recommend it at max travel. Any other setting you'll be fine.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: this could be why my '18 36 Grip 2 170mm Luftkappe came back from Fox with a new CSU, after just under a year of use and two full prior teardowns. I'm sure it suffered from more than its fair share of topouts, and that Fox wasn't too happy about it. Technically, they shouldn't have serviced it at all, given their statements regarding modification.

That Kapfinger fellow seems to be doing okay with his huge undertaking. It can't hurt that returns are disallowed due to customization....
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Cheers for the reply, it’s a set that Chris Porter modified for me so I’ll check what he did to the air spring before I order one.
Keep up the good work!!!
  • 2 0
 @ceecee: the Luftkappes with the 36 are configured to rely more heavily on the negative air spring than the topout bumper (like if not for an additional hole in the air shaft that the topout bumper usually covers, that could pass through the sealhead on initial pressurisation, we'd actually have that removed entirely), so I would be surprised if it was topping out hard unless it had the original 2018 air shaft in there which had topout problems from day 1 irrespective of modifications, because the topout bumper was just an o-ring. In any event, topout issues are unlikely to result in a new CSU. Creaking or wear however might.

Mr Kapfinger is indeed doing some impressive things. He can definitely think outside the box.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: thanks. No one on here would believe it was not creaking. I'll have another look at the rest.
  • 2 0
 I think you guys mixed up your names. This should be called the smashpot
  • 1 0
 Would love to see a tear down and get an idea of how this badboy actually works
  • 1 0
 Aside from extra oil - it appears this would only help heavy riders who have maxed out tokens?
  • 1 0
 The Secus isn't there to simply add progression for big hits or heavy riders (in fact we went to some lengths to reduce the minimum amount of progression), its job is to significantly reduces the variation in spring rate throughout the majority of the stroke so that for about 2/3 of the stroke you have a spring rate that is virtually indistinguishable from dead linear (ie that of a coil), until you get to the late stroke where it ramps up to whatever degree you deem necessary (determined by your token configuration).
  • 1 0
 Can shops get this stuff for resale? Our shop would love to be able to sell this and other vorsprung products
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension does this work well with a Luftkappe installed on the spring?
  • 1 0
 Not recommended to use with a Luftkappe. It'll mean even higher pressures and considerably more end-stroke progression, along with interfering with the function of the Midstroke Support Valve.
  • 7 7
 But will you fix my fox 36 when I smash this thing and it tears out the threads?
  • 1 0
 EXACTLY what I'd be worried about. Or it snapping off the end in the lowers and then having to extract it. Or it just breaking the lowers entirely.
  • 31 0
 There are no threads in the bottom of your 36. They're all in the footstud, which would be covered. We've tested these to failure in every possible mode, the footstud will bend before there's any damage to the lowers.
  • 18 0
 I like pooping on weird bike stuff as much as the next guy, but Vorsprung consistently produces worthwhile, well thought-out products - emphasis on the 'well-though-out'. In the NSMB article they talk about the flex built into it and how it is designed to respond in the event of an impact. I think it's a case where wrecking threads by smashing this thing would be similar to wrecking your chainstay threads by smashing your derailleur. In both cases, there is a part or an element designed to be the failure point before that happens. If it were some gimmicky company, I'd agree, but if anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt it's Vorsprung.
  • 8 0
 @shlotch: thanks for the vote of confidence. It is indeed built in such a way that it's supported against impacts, and has a certain amount of flex built into it to allow it to contact the lower leg should it be hit from underneath. It can rotate (and flex) laterally out of the way until the reinforcement ridges on the body come into contact with the brake caliper as well, to handle impacts from the side should you crash on it.
  • 1 0
 How many crashes can it take?
  • 2 0
 Depends on the crash! I suppose a comparison would be to consider how often have you destroyed a derailleur, brake rotor or caliper in a crash? We built it to withstand impacts as best we could without risking damage to other components, but it's not invincible. That's why we offer a 12 month damage replacement guarantee - if you do damage it in a crash, we'll replace the parts free of charge.
  • 4 0
 lets see a pic of your lowers and well better understand your riding style lol
  • 14 14
 I bet 95% of the people reading this article wouldn’t even be able to notice the difference.
  • 35 0
 I guarantee you that if you tested it blindfolded back to back with any stock fork it fits, you'd feel a difference just pushing on the thing in the parking lot - never mind once you get it out on the trail where the difference becomes even clearer. The improvement in feel isn't a tiny incremental change.
  • 3 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Any plans to get some sort of demo program for these available? Seems like it would be a fairly quick install?
  • 25 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: I agree. Let's send the guy on a test ride. Blind.
  • 6 0
 @bishopsmike: if you're in BC, feel free to swing by our Whistler workshop and you can at the very least have a bounce around on one. Shoot us an email if you're interested.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: I will take you up on that on my next trip - thanks!
  • 12 0
 My wife is a VERY basic rider, but she spends a good amount of time on her bike. She immediately noticed the difference between her Pike with and without a Luftkappe.

The whole “an average rider would never notice” line sounds like something that someone with very little experience would say
  • 7 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Can we get a video of your test riders riding blindfolded
  • 6 0
 @hamncheez: OH&S prevents us from allowing that to take place. Unless you're volunteering? Smile
  • 4 0
 I often notice a difference when I make suspension adjustments, but then I end up adjusting my riding to the new settings, and end up wondering if it’s better, or just different.
  • 1 8
flag bigtard (Aug 5, 2020 at 0:00) (Below Threshold)
 @onlyDH:
More likely because of the overhaul that the fork needed anyways that happened when the luftkappe was installed.
  • 2 0
 @bigtard: I service my forks every month, and rebuild dampers 3 times per year. Probably not, eh
  • 7 1
 @bigtard: name checks out
  • 2 0
 @bigtard: I put three Luftkappe upgrades on friends' bikes; basic to expert riders. Every one noticed an immediate difference. As with anything, the best way to test is to try it yourself. Also realize that both Rockshox and Fox have since increased their negative springs following Vorspung's innovation.
  • 1 0
 Too bad i cant afford it.
  • 2 0
 We do still have the Luftkappes available as a more affordable upgrade for many forks - we are sensitive to price concerns too.
  • 2 1
 Basically a fork MegNeg with some fancy valving and bleed port?
  • 6 0
 Not entirely accurate, not entirely inaccurate Smile
  • 3 0
 Yes, except more expensive but also works much better
  • 2 1
 If you have this on can you still use the shockwiz?
  • 2 0
 @hbar314: should be fine, the Shockwiz operates only on the pressure of the positive chamber and this doesn't interfere with that.
  • 4 5
 Think about how the shockwiz works, then think about this... Then read your comment again slowly and answer the question
  • 4 0
 @Bikerdude137: I did, I assumed it wouldn't....but why wouldn't it be prudent to check with the source?

@VorsprungSuspension thanks!
  • 1 0
 If I didn't already have the smashpot I would try it out.
  • 2 0
 I want a Smashpot!
  • 4 4
 or buy a DVO and not have to fiddle with trying to make air negative springs better? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • 4 1
 I swear DVO brand has the most uninformed fan base out of all brands. Let me guess, you think that because it´s coil somewhere in it, so it must be better right?
  • 1 2
 @Mondbiker: Uninformed, lol. I've ridden RS, Fox, Marz (when they were good), Suntour, Manitou, and probably more that I may be missing. Facts are facts, DVO uses an adjustable coil spring as the negative spring in their fork as opposed to relying on air equalization, which is exactly what my comment stated above. Are you mentally challenged?
  • 1 1
 Edit: Scrolling through your recent comments in this thread, it looks like you're just an angry troll and possibly mentally challenged as well.
  • 2 0
 @novajustin: Nah, I just know that coil negative doesn´t sort out inherent air spring issues...Same cannot be said about you. Not sure about mentally challanged, it looks like you know thing or two about that too damn well though.
  • 1 1
 @Mondbiker: Well, it sure is funny that every suspension tuner is trying to come up with ways to crutch the air spring on the big brands but not one "innovation" for the DVO air spring... Seems to me that the negative spring that you are refusing to acknowledge is actually working. You must be a Fox rider since you seem to think you're all high and mighty. You seem to be confused about what this article is about, but again it's probably due to your level of retardation.
  • 1 0
 @novajustin: Feel free to explain how "single rate fits all" very linear negative coil spring is going to fix shortcomings single large air chamber positive. I like to learn new stuff so I will patiently wait. And yeah I run everything fox including underwear, what´s wrong with that?
  • 4 0
 @novajustin: we aren't making upgrades for Cane Creek, DVO, Ohlins, X-Fusion, Formula, EXT, Intend, BOS, Trust, MRP, Suntour or Manitou either. The only reason for it is market share - between Fox and RS they have at least 90% of the performance market. All of those brands make products that have some great aspects as well as some things that can definitely be improved, but we can't justify chasing down small snippets of the market that cost more to develop and produce than they make in sales. Same reason few people are offering damper tuning for any of those companies - it's expensive to develop and has a much more limited market.

Also worth noting that Fox used coil negative springs in all Float forks from 2002 to 2015 before they moved to negative air (NA) in 2016. DVO's OTT system has some merit, but it's not the be-all end-all either.
  • 2 1
 I’ve been EXTREMELY happy with my Push ACS3 but I’m no weight weenie.
  • 1 0
 Good point. Maybe I'm being slow here but wouldn't the Push ACS3 be a better and more compact solution?
  • 1 0
 Couldnt it go inside the triangle (frame)?
  • 1 1
 So. why not buying a marzocchi coil set with just70$? All the disadvantages will despair.
  • 1 1
 You can probably buy a nearly new Bomber coil for the price of this grenade?
  • 5 0
 MSRP of the Z1 coil is more than double what the Secus is, but while we're comparing apples to oranges you could also buy a 20 year old car with half a million km on it for the same price! Bargain! Smile
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: hahaha, touche!
  • 1 0
 Does it alter the axle to crown length?
  • 1 0
 No, that is set by the air shaft you use.
  • 1 0
 OOOO sounds nasty Secus i want one LOL
  • 1 1
 Would consider if the mounting system sat higher on the fork leg
  • 1 0
 I wonder if they had to put it where they put it so that in the event of a accident/failure, it doesn't get jammed into the rotor or spokes. That could be bad.
  • 7 0
 Not really possible to mount it up higher given its function. It's wrapped as tight to the fork leg as it can be.
  • 2 5
 @VorsprungSuspension: you could shape the canister to "wrap" around the lowers, almost like a half-moon, with little "moon tokens" to go inside. Would probably require more complicated machining, though.
  • 7 0
 @PHeller: This is some hardcore armchair engineering. I'd imagine the product would double in cost if what you suggested was possible.
  • 4 0
 @PHeller: That actually isn't a feasible option with this. There's quite a bit more going on inside than it may first appear. We'd need all kinds of custom half-moon shaped seals and whatnot to begin with, and @deonvg is correct that we'd end up with the world's most expensive fork part as a result. We evaluated a lot of options as far as packaging, with full awareness that there are exposure concerns with any part outside the fork, and this was the best one overall.
  • 1 1
 @deonvg: depends on their manufacturing process, but yea, a more complicated part will cost more. Making cannisters is pretty easy.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: just to be fully clear, this can't be run on a short flex line and secured to the fork leg similar to what we see with reservoirs in the offroad world? Apples to steaks example, but breakability from protrusion was definitely my first thought.

Either way, would love to give this a shot--and a good reminder I need to get into Traction Works to get your Tractive tune into my least favorite shock Smile
  • 3 0
 @HaggeredShins: We looked at that as an option, but it was going to be heavier and bulkier with increased downwards protrusion because there would actually be two lines there.
  • 3 5
 I'm just gonna put a motorcycle fork on a bicycle at this point.
  • 1 1
 Go for it, moto tires weigh 5 times more than DH tires.
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