What Does Tesla's Battery Day Mean for eMTBs?

Sep 25, 2020
by James Smurthwaite  

Tesla's Battery Day on Tuesday was one of the most highly anticipated moments of the tech calendar, and Elon Musk used it to lay out his vision for more sustainable technologies, in-house battery production and, most interestingly, huge advances in battery technology.

In front of an audience sitting in Tesla cars and hundreds of thousands watching online, Musk announced that new battery technologies that would mean his electric vehicles will be more powerful, longer lasting, and less expensive. What this boils down to is Tesla being able to sell a full electric car for $25,000 USD within 3 years.

It's impressive stuff, but will we ever see this technology in eMTBs, and what will it mean for their development? First, let's take a look at the batteries that we use now.

Photo credit Manuel Sulzer

What is inside an eMTB battery?

At the moment most eMTB batteries are 18650 Lithium-ion (Li-ion). Li-ion batteries were first developed in 1985 and they have been the main driving force behind electric vehicle development as they are rechargeable and you can get a lot of power from them without them taking up too much space.

The 18650 part refers to the cells within the battery pack. Each battery is packed full of individual cells that measure 18mm x 65mm, roughly the size of your finger. These are welded together in packs that are connected in parallel. If you take off the plastic shell, it basically it looks a bit like a bunch of AA batteries all joined together.

What goes on inside the battery isn't that important, but there is one important number with batteries - watt-hours. This, like you might expect, is a measure how many watts can be delivered in an hour. So for example, a 250 watt-hour battery could drive a 250 watt motor on full power for one hour while a 500 watt-hour battery could drive it for 2. Most e-bike batteries sit between 300 and 550 watt-hours. The golden bullet with batteries is getting as many watt-hours as possible, but if you just keep adding cells you'll start adding weight and volume.

Tesla and Panasonic's 21700 cell was huge news when it was announced in 2017.

Tesla doesn't currently use 18650 cells, though; it now uses the 21700 standard with cells measuring 21mm by 70mm. Tesla developed this cell with Panasonic in 2017 and its larger volume means it can be packed with more anodes and cathodes so can hold more energy. Tesla also claims it has a longer lifespan as it has to be charged less.

We have recently started to see these cells come into eMTBs with Specialized's Turbo Levo Kenevo being the one we have covered the most on Pinkbike. This bike has a massive 700Wh battery, making it one of the biggest you can get on an eMTB today.

Specialized Kenevo Expert review
The Specialized Kenevo was one of the first eMTBs to use 21700 batteries.

Tesla hasn't stopped 21700 though, and its announcement on Tuesday is the next evolution of its cell technology

How is Tesla's New Battery Different?

The new Tesla battery has gone up in size again, this time far more significantly to 4680 or 46mm x 80mm. However, the real innovation comes from what's inside the can. Both 18650 and 21700 standard cells use 2 tabs connected to thin bits of copper and aluminum foil to connect the workings of the battery to the outside world. Not only are these tabs complicated to manufacture but they also take up space inside the battery and reduce efficiency as the current must travel the full length of the electrode to reach each tab.

The tab at the top of the cell takes up space and is claimed to be less efficient than Musk's new tabless design.

Tesla's new design gets rid of these tabs and instead uses a "shingled spiral" design to collect the current which reduces internal resistance, reduces cost and simplifies manufacturing. Musk said: “The distance the electron has to travel is much less. So you actually have a shorter path length in a large, tabless cell, then you have in a smaller cell with tabs. So even though the cell is bigger, it actually has a better power-to-weight ratio.”


According to Drew Baglino, the senior vice president of powertrain and engineering at Tesla, the innovations boost the energy by five times, the power by six times, and the range of a car using these batteries by 16 percent. It's worth saying we don't know what the baseline for these numbers are as no exact figures are given but we assume its in relation to the 21700.

Will we ever see this on eMTBs?

The advantages for eMTBs of a more powerful battery are clear. You can either deliver the same power in a smaller, lighter package, therefore making the bike handle and look more like a traditional mountain bike, or you can keep the battery the same size and boost the range of the bike.

As impressive as Musk's claims were, there was one problem. While the cells are apparently currently in testing, a physical one wasn't shown and it will apparently be another three years before the technology is released. Don't expect to see eMTBs using them straight away either. It took roughly 2 years for the 21700 tech to trickle down from Tesla Model 3 cars to the Specialized Kenevo, so you can probably expect tabless batteries to be the same, if it even happens at all.

Bike photos
Three years ago, 500Wh was about the best you could hope for on a 18650 eMTB battery, but Bosch now produces a 650Wh Powertube.

There are also reasons that bike manufacturers are currently satisfied with the 18650 system and don't see any reason to change. There is still plenty of innovation in this size of cell with Bosch unveiling its 625Wh Powertube battery last year, offering a huge range despite the smaller cell size. The internals of these cells are still being perfected too with engineers experimenting with different cathode and anode materials to boost capacity.

One of the other big problems of increasing the volume of a cell is that it makes it harder for heat to escape. If a battery gets too hot it has to operate at reduced power or risk damaging itself permanently. E-MTBs are often out in the sun all day so the better heat management of an 18650 cell could lead to better performance over a longer period of time.

Finally, as with all things, cost will surely be a factor. 18650 cells are well proven technology, have now been refined for cycling applications and are widely produced by a number of competing brands. New technology is rarely cheap, especially in its infancy and while Musk is targeting a $25,000 USD electric car, we doubt he will let that competitive advantage go easily.

So, will eMTB batteries get smaller, lighter, cheaper and more powerful? Almost certainly. Will that be because of Elon Musk? Probably not for a while at least.


255 Comments

  • 380 64
 Watch the documentary “Planet of the Humans”. I really want to embrace electric vehicles including bikes but it seems that it is very environmentally taxing to produce these batteries. Add in the fact that most electricity comes from natural gas or coal still and it looks even less appealing. I know i’ll get a lot of hate for this but watch it for yourself and make up your own mind. The answer is just buying less stuff and making do with what you have. I feel this is a very often overlooked downside to e-bikes.
  • 87 198
flag unrooted (Sep 25, 2020 at 13:20) (Below Threshold)
 I was also going to suggest people watch Planet of the Humans...but I got a different lesson from the film: we’re too screwed to actually make a difference through lifestyle changes, so might as well live as well as possible, and be grateful that I get to live at “peak humanity” because there is no way anything will actually fix this mess.
  • 102 16
 Donut Media did a pretty good video on this: youtu.be/G67i_Z8ukD4

Summary: Electric cars are worse for the environment, up-front (although the entire supply chain has a long way to go to become as efficient as the conventional car supply chain), but ends up being much more environmentally friendly over the long term.
  • 115 14
 Well, this is really a generalising point of view. It might have some sense in some parts of the world but not in others.

1) As of energy production: Look at France for instance. 90percent of energy is zero emission (nuclear + renuables)...so it's certainly possible to have clean energy.

Not to mention Norway: almost 100% renuable

2) battery production is a problem, but still it does less harm than a comparable system run with a combustion engine, And also, crucially in this case many people opt for an E-bike rather than car for commuting, which makes a huge difference in energy consumption.

3) Even if you absolutely ignore the environment, evrything electric is good in general, especially in Europe. We don't want to be feeding eastern sheikhs with our hard earned money, or be dependent on Russia with all resources. (Almost all oil and naural gas is imported to Europe from these regions). Better to invest in our own sources, be as independent as possible and keep the money here. (This is actually why a whole lot of people are scared by the electric revolution)
  • 45 11
 @unrooted: pretty pessimistic there. If everyone thought the way you did we would be living in a much different world today.
  • 29 32
 @ThunderChunk: Are you saying that we got to this point with optimism??? Well then I guess we’ll be okay then.
  • 15 7
 You mean Planet of the apes?
  • 41 19
 @jayacheess: An electric car is eventually offsetting the use of a normal combustion engine car in the long term, so yes they do end up being more environmentally friendly. But if you look at E-Bikes, they are not offsetting anything. The environmental impact of producing E-Bikes is not eventually cancelled out by anything since you are replacing an "analogue" bike
  • 49 10
 @philip9175: One would expect that some ebikes are replacing cars and gasoline-powered motorcycles.
  • 17 5
 @tonit91: It's the prequel to Planet of the Apes.
  • 22 3
 @philip9175: Unless your bike is replacing a car.
  • 107 9
 So much of that movie's assertions were debunked well before the movie was even made - genuinely irresponsible film making. Take for example your mention of "most electricity comes from natural gas or coal still" as a negative - say you're fancy Tesla is getting power from only the dirtiest coal power plant, your portion of the emissions still ends up being that of a car getting better than 100 miles to the gallon because electric cars are simply more efficient with their power. I'm really sick of the "this solution has a tiny flaw, better not do anything argument." It's going to take a lot of iterative steps to get to a better place, and its just lazy and selfish to give up that easily. That being said - your buying less stuff point is on the money.
  • 6 18
flag GBeard (Sep 25, 2020 at 13:51) (Below Threshold)
 @GeorgeHayduke: "this solution has a tiny flaw, better not do anything argument." .... I never said that or anything close to it. Nice strawman.
  • 9 11
 @philip9175: Actually you are completly wrong. Many studies have shown, that E-bikes bring many new people to the sport, rather than that people riding pushbikes would go all electro. Also people who buy a second bike an ebike might start comuting on it rather than going by car.
  • 18 1
 No is sometimes the most powerful word you can say to yourself, our hyper consumerist society brainwashes us into thinking we always need more.
  • 14 3
 Extraction and purification of Rare Earth Elements are an ecological problem. Pollution is inherent to the extraction of REEs because they come together with their Mendeleiev’s neighbors, the actinides, among which the Uranium and the Thorium. Purification of REEs is also polluting since it uses heavy chemistry techniques such as separating REE on ion exchange columns + use of acids including HF. Recycling is uneconomic/non-profitable and has also a strong ecological impact (acids, energy).
  • 2 3
 The catalytic, electronic, magnetic, optic properties of these Rare Earth Elements make them indispensable in our modern-day ecological life: HEV, electric bikes, windmills, photovoltaic panels, smartphones…
  • 12 2
 @GBeard: I apologize, my comment did appear directed at you, it was meant to be directed at the movie you referenced.
  • 6 1
 @IluvRIDING: how am i completely wrong? I’m referring to trail bikes not cars. People who come directly into the sport and buy an E-Bike are contributing to the environmental impact of E-Bikes. If they then decide to commute on that e bike then good on them, that would then reduce the impact
  • 8 2
 @unrooted: no but we didn't get here today by saying "this is life and we just have to accept the way things are"
  • 15 3
 I still see 99% of people locally who own e bikes drive go trails to ride them, and they definitely don’t commute to work on them or anywhere else.
  • 3 1
 @jayacheess: Volvo says the payback point for carbon emissions on their electric vehicles is currently 30k miles, so you do have to drive it quite a bit before hitting the break-even.
  • 1 5
flag foes05 (Sep 25, 2020 at 15:17) (Below Threshold)
 @philip9175: Hello Maybe so but if you have an Ebike you tent to do errands and have longer rides = more healthier you & it'll Keep you from cruising around in your car (haha my theory)
  • 11 2
 @unrooted: We got to this point with apathy and negligence.
  • 5 13
flag unrooted (Sep 25, 2020 at 15:51) (Below Threshold)
 @A1990ToyotaHilux: it’s nice to see that your blindly optimistic about that changing.
  • 17 5
 Before anyone misconstrues my comment as if I am for maintaining the status quo, I certainly am not. I actually believe nuclear energy is our best option, which isn't even addressed in that movie. Also I have no kids, eat vegan, ride my regular bike as much as possible, generally use things I have until they fall apart, give stuff away which I no longer use instead of throwing things in landfills, etc. The world isn't black and white where if you don't support one thing you must be for the opposite.
  • 5 5
 You are ill informed.
  • 5 9
flag Jvisscher (Sep 25, 2020 at 16:37) (Below Threshold)
 Before you watch an outdated movie planet of the humans watch the TESLA battery presentation. It deals with so many misconceptions and assumptions given in the musings of the movie makers. Also, tabless batteries have less resistance and therefore less heat produced than the 18650 used in bikes - unlike what this article stated. Again, watch and understand teslas battery presentation. Typically larger diameter batteries do create more heat as they have more resistance or length of the electrons to move around to the tab.
  • 4 3
 @IluvRIDING: we’ve heard this before from the euros. Last time it was clean diesel.
  • 7 3
 @SJP: who buys an e-bike to replace a motorbike? didn't realise people rode motorbikes on MTB trails
  • 2 1
 @dthomp325: two years on average.
  • 7 17
flag coolj43 (Sep 25, 2020 at 19:10) (Below Threshold)
 @IluvRIDING: Yo Nuclear energy is not clean bro. ever heard of fukushima? Or Chernobyl?? lol
  • 11 4
 @IluvRIDING: Norway is a terrible example. Learn something about how they mine the oil from the seas and sell it to other countries, not being afraid to use that dirty money for their clean energy country. I'm all for the clean energy, but not if it means faking and abusing the system.
  • 9 1
 Humans are environmentally taxing
  • 3 2
 @philip9175: When I see how many in our town ride an e-Bike instead of their cars to go groceries shopping, your point is biased by MTB only. There is a triple sized bike rack on one parking spot now.
  • 1 1
 @jayacheess: did you say Donut?
  • 2 1
 @jayacheess: Good insight. I have done some of this research on my own and everything I can find points to the same thing: EVs are better in the long run. I also do see GBeard's point but if a car is better for the environment in the long run it makes more sense to use those in the future than keep our dirty ICE cars
  • 1 1
 @DrJean: you do realize that REs are not required by electric vehicles, right? Sure, some motors use permanent magnets, but it's not necessary. Also, HF is a standard industrial acid; sure you don't want to touch it and melt your bones, but a semiconductor fab uses it extensively, and had been for decades. It's easy to manage.
  • 12 1
 @coolj43: Nope, nuclear energy is extremely clean. Absolutely no emissions. Only waste. If done right, its also pretty safe. There are about 500 nuclear power plants in the world. ...one or two major accidents per century seems like an acceptable risk for not choking the the planet with burnt fossil fuels (actually these emissions kill much more people). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hypothetical_number_of_deaths_from_energy_production,_OWID.svg
  • 7 1
 @coolj43: nuclear is clean from an atmospheric carbon perspective. It does generate waste, buy the volume of said waste is small relative to every other technology. Nuclear has the capability to provide a feasible baseline power load in a primarily renewable energy, carbon neutral economy.
  • 4 3
 @kusa: Nope, Norway great example, that it is possible. Yes they are making money on selling fossil fuels, but they are not stupid and they invest the money from them it in renuables. I don't see this as faking and abusing the system. It would be the case, if they imported electricity from these diry sources, but they don't.
  • 1 4
 The fact that electricity comes from fossil fuel in many countries are just a bad excuse and a sign of some under developed countries lack of environmental actions. In my country (Sweden) and to my knowledge the rest of the Nordish countries all electricity comes from non fossil sources, except for some companies that are or about to be blacklisted. But there are Still Few problems with the production, especially for the workers who dig after cobolt, and this problem could be easily fixed by Apple, Tesla etc if they really want.
  • 2 1
 No hate, only love brother.
  • 2 2
 In fact it is not eco friendly, it just pollutes other countries that are poor enough to accept to be paid for that.
  • 3 6
 @IluvRIDING: agree in almost everything since I do not consider nuclear clean.
  • 6 2
 Thank you for that comment. A friend works as an engenieer at the electric car business for mercedes. He said that the whole eco friendly marketing for electric transportation is pure BS. Just marketing to sell it the masses so they can feel good about themself when buying it. But the good thing is that every year the technology gets better and more efficient and also more eco friendly just like with modern gasoline cars. And I agree, buying less and using what you have for a longer time is the right answer.
  • 15 0
 The issue here is that you have a lot of emtb haters. I get the reasons why folks may not like them.
However, emtb is a tiny tiny segment of ebikes as a whole.
You have to all see outside that.
One of my colleagues has just bought an e-town bike to ride to work on. Shock horror it has to be plugged in at home using fossil fuel. Until you consider he was driving to work in a Ford Ranger. How many more countless examples of that are there? On the racks of tourists and campervans entering my county, I saw a massive increase in ehybrids this year but less tow-cars.
We need to get our heads out of our arses when we think about ebikes. Ebikes are getting people on bikes that would otherwise drive. Its almost nothing to do with whether you can or can not ride them on your trails. Thats just a minor side point at best.
  • 1 0
 @sspiff: Dear Sspiff,
In my post, I was refering to HEV. Nickel–metal hydride batteries used in modern HEV (which hydride contains REEs) are very demanding in terms of REEs.
  • 2 0
 @sspiff: Regarding the management of acids to cut Si-O bondings. In the 90’s, the Chinese offered Occidental Countries to take care of their REEs production. The occidental countries have accepted. One of the reasons China is able to extract and purify REEs in such an economic/competitive way is that China has a different environmental policy than occidental countries.
  • 2 0
 @DrJean: meaning the cadres get coin, and the people get incurable diseases.
  • 4 2
 Well all be dead because of aliens in 10 years so who cares about pollution
  • 2 0
 @SoddenDeath: Answering you from my Indium-"coated" smartphone wouldn't be appropriate!
Most important is to avoid the spreading of the Dunning-Kruger syndrome on Pinkbike, but I think it’s already too late…
  • 1 0
 @philip9175:
Farmers. Perfect for moving machinery from paddock to paddock on your own, and you can easily lift them onto the back of a ute.
  • 7 2
 Plus, the easiest way to save the planet, have less kids, simple
  • 2 0
 Check out the Wikipedia (factual accuracy) section of “Planet of the humans”
  • 2 0
 @jayacheess: IF the car is driven for a certain number of miles over it's lifetime. A great number of vehicles are destroyed in one way or another before they make it to 100 or 200,000 miles. That battery then becomes waste at least some of the time which is problematic.

Ironically... Expanded Nuclear power production would make all electrically powered items more environmentally friendly based on the long term.
  • 3 1
 @coolj43: newer Nuclear plants and technology are extremely safe... Canada happens to have some very good technology we export for Nuclear plants. There is always the possibility of accidents, but they are being reduced more and more, and they don't destroy the landscape and skyline like those grotesque wind farms (which are inefficient, inconsistent and damaging to wildlife)
  • 1 0
 @DrJean: Ni/hydride batteries have been almost entirely superceded by Li battery technologies though. In the context of "clean energy" REs at this point are mostly used for permanent magnets and lighting phosphors. Yes, RE extraction is difficult, expensive to do cleanly, and almost exclusively done by China, but heavy RE utilization will remain until we develop new technologies with reduced RE content.

Both are bad, but I'll take localized mining pollution over atmospheric warming.
  • 5 2
 @IluvRIDING: a bit of a misnomer to call nuclear 0 emissions, there is a lot of waste that needs to be dealt with and there is no good way to do that...yet!
  • 1 0
 @DrJean: You're talking to strangers on the internet dude; you don't know who any of us are just as we don't know who you are. Careful throwing out concepts like dunning kruger effect lest you fall on the wrong side of the curve.
  • 1 2
 @AC1987: Fukushima....
  • 2 0
 @RadBartTaylor: Superman style, rockets into the sun.
  • 2 0
 Wise closing words #GBeard.
  • 3 0
 @IluvRIDING: thank you for making these points. All is not lost. Clean energy sources do exist. Nuclear needs to be reconsidered and further studied/improved in developed nations. Intervention and ingenuity can change the course our planet is on.
  • 2 0
 You probably won't. I'm a staunch rightwing guy, but I'm all for the environment, and have been my entire life. I like not having fossil fuel engines, but don't like the battery aspect either. I'm glad all my older friends can get an ebike to help them get out there though.
  • 1 0
 @ThunderChunk: to say the least.
  • 3 0
 @unrooted: there's a ton of natural beauty left in the world, and just because some movie told you the end is near doesn't mean you should give up. Do you remember acid rain? Hasn't been mentioned since Gore made a political campaign out of global warming. Cheer up!
  • 2 1
 @philip9175: I have an ebike and I often use it instead of driving my SUV. I look forward to development in battery tech to make my commuter bike lighter and increase its range
  • 2 1
 @Websterminator: don’t worry, I plan to literally enjoy the sh!t out of this planet.
  • 4 0
 @IluvRIDING: there is a concept for a different type of nuclear reactor, the TWR-Traveling Wave Reactor. Bill gates is apparently is one of the view people who believe in it and heavily invest in it. It does need the Uran 235 to start the reactor but if it is running it even could run on the nuclear waste the standard reactors produce. So it also could get rid of most of our nuclear waste. If it blows up it is relatively harmless.
They need a material who is strong enough to withstand the neutrons permanent blast. The reactor could run with one charge 100 years.
  • 3 0
 @Serpentras: Well yes I am aware of that. But that's future. As of now. I can only say that I know that for future generations it's absolutely better to keep some small nuclear waste hundreds of metres underground at a few remote locations than destroy the majority of the earth's surface by burning fossil fuels. And also (given you are German) that your government is pretty stupid to close down nuclear power plants, and rather relly on (imported) gas power stations and electricity imports for what can't be covered by renuables when only driven by "vox pop".
  • 1 0
 @IluvRIDING: our government doesn't relying so much on oil or gas. We have almost 40% coal. Also stupid if you ask me. They even build a new one and it would run till 2038.
40% was regenerative energy and 38% coal, 14% nuclear and only 7% gas. Last report from 2019.
  • 1 0
 @Serpentras: From what I have read the plan was to phase out nuclear and coal and replace it with gas and biomass (and renuables).
  • 1 0
 @sspiff: You should not take it personally.
  • 2 1
 @Beard: You are saying that he said you said that. I am saying that He did not say that you said that.
  • 1 2
 @jayacheess: Depending on how your electricity is generated.. If your Tesla is sucking on coal generated electricity it may never reach carbon equality with a conventional gasoline vehicle..
  • 1 0
 @bogey: it hasn't completely replaced your SUV has it? like some other people have commented that e-bikes should? an e-bike won't end up being your only form of transport will it?
  • 2 0
 @slowerthanmydentist: Even then, it will beat a combustion vehicle in emissions which is locally on the same grid.
  • 2 0
 @IluvRIDING: Nuclear plants require massive amounts of concrete, the production of which carries a huge energy and carbon debt that takes time to offset (not an expert on eROI of nuke plants, but now I'm curious). Also consider effects of heat pollution in receiving water bodies and risks associated with accumulating spent fuel. Norway is a net oil & gas exporter (gets used somewhere), and their domestic hydroelectric dams have radical ecological and geophysical effects.

All that to say when comparing energy alternatives, ecological side effects, human quality of life, and the embodied energy of the supporting infrastructure needs to be considered.

@unrooted's pessimism is warranted IMHO. Economies need energy to grow, capitalism demands maximum growth with minimum investment, and even though the high eROI stuff is tapped out, the cheapest energy is still fossil/net positive CO2/deleterious in other ways. These problems need to be attacked AGGRESSIVELY at the level of national utilities and major industry for humans to have a chance of long-term habitability on earth with a high quality of life, and taking North America for example, it's just not.
  • 3 1
 @ThunderChunk: I'd say @unrooted is being realistic, which is something most people could benefit from doing.
  • 1 0
 the technical arguments here are making me sick. and are besides the point really. why are we so inclined to argue on a topic that we don't really know anything about -- as though any of us could profess to know what is most "healthy" for the planet. jeez if we were all just took satisfaction in what we have. I can tell you only one thing for sure. there is actually nothing that could make my bike ride on my old mechanical bike more special.
  • 1 0
 Planet of the Humans has been widely criticized for being deliberately misleading. See link.

youtu.be/ZmNjLHRAP2U
  • 1 0
 At the end of the day it comes down to cobalt, there is just enough to convert 30% of the worlds vehicles to battery. Then that’s it.
  • 3 0
 @kipvr: Co free cathode materials are quite promising, for example with Tesla recently announcing a near term move to Co-free, nickelate cathodes. Ni is ~100x more abundant than Co and not completely controlled by Chinese companies through DRC mining rights.
  • 4 1
 People will debate this electric car vs gas all day, which to me is fine. What is undeniable is that e-mountain bikes are far worse for the planet than regular mountain bikes. Battery + Motor production, more riding opportunity (compared to human power) means more tires burned through, more parts run through. And more riding honestly does mean more trail erosion and potential for top soil removal. Highly unpopular opinion but e-bikes are horrendous for the sport and the planet. *Note: unless you have a health condition where an e-bike allows you to ride when you would be incapable otherwise, and being overweight doesnt count*
  • 2 1
 @bikeparkmemes: Erosion happens regardless, forever and ever...Being overweight is a health condition and it would make sense for someone who is overweight to start on a e-bike so they can get a base started without fear of complete failure. In my unbiased opinion e-bikes are the best platform for developing the future of electric transportation. I do not own, nor have I ridden one on a trail but wouldn't hesitate to take a rip on one at my favorite spot.
  • 83 1
 bets on whether we see a $25,000 eMTB within 3 years?
  • 11 1
 Well Kona has a $14'000 trail bike so you're prediction is spot on
  • 8 1
 @hamncheez: $18,000 plus the new wheels, tires and brakes you would need to buy.
  • 6 2
 @schlayer: yeah right? Super hyper bike and still it has G2 brakes? Like wtf?
  • 19 1
 it says what to expect right on the website: "buy now, pay later, learn more"
  • 2 1
 @thinkbike: Comment of the day
  • 1 1
 YETI 32k ????????
  • 3 3
 Canadian pesos or freedombux? Under on the peso, over on the eagle
  • 1 1
 Already done. With upgrades
  • 4 0
 @hamncheez: This insane. Back in 2010 I bought an S1000RR motorcycle, which was considered one of the fastest thing OEM vehciles you could buy, for $17k.
  • 82 8
 So let’s get this straight... Elon can hopefully make a whole self driving car for $25000, and Specialized is over here making a F’ing ebike for $20000?!?!?
The mountain bike industry needs to pull its head out of its own ass.
Thanks,
A concerned N+1 guy who likes his marriage
  • 13 13
 That's an irrelevant comparison, because Tesla also make a 100k car. Price is going to be a factor of research and development, cost of production and the number of units you can sell (ecconomy of scale) plus what people are prepared to spend. For a luxury item people are prepared to spend way beyond its actual value!
  • 7 5
 Right... you compare the roadster equivalent specialized to the rockhopper equivalent Tesla... let me know how that works out for you.
  • 3 1
 Well someone has to pay for all the marketing the big frame and component brands engage in...
  • 8 1
 @boozed: that’s even better. Because Tesla has zero paid advertising.
  • 57 2
 My bike is cookie powered
  • 14 1
 Not a bad set up. However, I prefer the Ice Cream powered models best. I have also heard the beer powered bicycle is quite popular.
  • 20 1
 @JDFF: The issue with the beer powered bicycle is that the more beer you power it with, the heavier it seems to get...
  • 3 1
 @pipomax Phil Gaimon, is that you?
  • 3 1
 @GBeard: Will wheelie for cookies
  • 3 0
 @goldencycle: the key is to consume the beer *before* you ride
  • 2 0
 Mine runs off hamburgers and cookies
  • 43 2
 Elonger, slacker, lower
  • 3 1
 and with more power... how long before we see 500W ebikes.
  • 3 2
 Elong Musk
  • 4 0
 @fartymarty: we already do.. the max output from average modern emtb-engines is about 600-800 Watts. Just sayin
  • 5 0
 @mi-bike: close, but his full name is Elongated Muskrat.

True story.
  • 43 9
 Ehhh..... I don't believe anything Musk says until it happens. Tesla's cars are really cool and blow away all their competitors, but Musk has proven time and time again that he has no problem with making statements that range from stretching the truth to being outright lies.

There's definitely a method to his statements, but I'll believe a $25K car when Tesla sells the $35K one promised years ago...
  • 11 3
 Why would Tesla sell a 35K model 3 when they sell out of everything they produce in higher spec versions at higher revenue?
  • 5 4
 @dblom has a point here. They actually did sell some $35k Model 3 cars a while ago. I think after the major tax credit went away the numbers worked out so that if you were someone who could afford a $35k car then you would rather buy the $38k one. You may also still be able to special order the $35k model.

And as for the issue of timelines for new products in the electric car sector, Tesla is certainly kicking the shoes off of other makers. These concepts are a big change for the battery industry and it'll be great to see that cost/energy/power benefit fall into the smaller vehicle sector in the next few years.
  • 21 25
flag StanMarsh (Sep 25, 2020 at 14:29) (Below Threshold)
 Musk is a charlatan and Tesla will have its day. The Tesla cultists will be in for a rude awakening.
  • 2 2
 The model3 standard range rwd is $38k In the US, which probably is about $35k + inflation from original announcement date.
  • 9 3
 @StanMarsh: haha!!! Tell that to California who just passed laws prohibiting the sale of new ICE vehicles. Tesla is years ahead of the game. If you compare specs, nothing currently On the market or even coming soon can come close to what Tesla is doing.

Nikola tried to claim they had tech to beat Tesla and the SEC put a quick stop to that. Sure, the market will catch up. Musk himself said that their lead isn’t sustainable. But it’s many years away. Until then, I’m not selling any of my stock in the T.
  • 1 1
 I bought it.
  • 5 2
 @StanMarsh: Kook. Toddle off. Thanks.
  • 6 2
 @HurricaneCycles: recent predictions is that one or more mainstream car manufacturers will surpass Teslas electric vehicle production in the next 2-5 years. Specifically, Ford is a possible candidate with the Mustang Mach-E and the Electric F150 when it is available i believe in 2022.

That being said, I do commend Tesla on bringing some innovative ideas to the market and I hope better battery tech trickles down to make reasonably priced e-mtbs
  • 1 0
 @HurricaneCycles: it was an executive order to be correct! It will be challenged and over turned in court. Electric cars are cool, I did a research paper on them in college. I got to drive a few of the early conversions. I would like to see all alternative energy represented in the market place.
  • 1 0
 @AC1987: you are definitely right. But those same people also predict Tesla stock to double Or maybe even triple between now and then. Unless they start making seriously bad decisions, Tesla is here to stay and will soon be a major player in the auto industry.
  • 2 1
 @AC1987: Really? Maybe VW has a chance, but Ford? Where did you read these "predictions"? Links?
  • 5 2
 @Chuckolicious: haha!! If Ford doesn’t do something REAL quick they will be the next Dodo.
  • 3 2
 You are right. Also noted that tesla has not had a profitable year yet. They have had a few quarters that made money but it isn't a sustainable company yet. There stock has risen but it's like a lot of stock it doesn't rise because of profits. Ford, FCA, Gm has to answer to shareholders that don't drink Kool-Aid.
  • 2 4
 @RLEnglish: Tesla has been profitable for the past four quarters straight, putting them into consideration for the S&P. Further, just as with Amazon not showing a profit for many years, Tesla is doing the exact same thing. Have you missed all of the massive expansion projects they have underway and already completed? Anyone who resorts to nonsense like using terms like "kool-aid" or "fanboys" outs themselves as either a fool, or having ulterior motives. But hey, go short the stock if you feel confident in your position. Money where your mouth is, and all that. Me? I have a nice long position in the company. Buy me a new Cybertruck in a couple years, along with an insane $15k Specialzed of some sort. Yep, I'll happily flaunt those profits and pay those cap gains.
  • 6 2
 @Chuckolicious: it was on a couple of automotive publications. Sorry don't have the articles handy. Tesla obviously has a head start on electric vehicle production, but it's pretty easy to see that once the major automakers get rolling, it will be pretty easy for them to scale up to and past Teslas current volume. In 2019 Ford produced more F-150s than Tesla produced total vehicles. It's not about slamming Tesla, it's about the fact that all the big automakers are extremely good at producing volume.
  • 5 1
 @AC1987: it’s worth noting the difficulty and expense of creating the machines that make the machines. At one point in life I was an industrial engineer and saw that side of it. Ford in particular has been losing big money for over 5 years straight now. Even if they magically come up with a product that can compete with Tesla, there is very little chance of them being able to offer a price anyone will want. Or they can use old tech to make a cheap product. Neither of which is Tesla doing.

This is the situation that the whole industry is in right now. And it doesn’t help that there is a mega arms race among smaller upstarts like Rivian, Workhorse, or Hyllion that are about to put a serious hurt on just about every aspect of the auto industry from small cars, like Tesla thru to the Hyllion’s industrial trucks. Pretty much every brand you now think of as an auto leader has been caught on the back foot it will be very difficult for them to maintain market share in the next 5 years.
  • 2 1
 @HurricaneCycles: Ford was profitable overall in the last several years... www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2019/01/23/ford-profits-down-more-than-50-percent-2018/2657790002 yes they have lost some money as well. However, they are also a major investor in Rivian ($500 million) and are using some of that technology. Again... not slamming Tesla, simply pointing out that they will soon have a lot of company in the same space whether from Ford, VW, Toyota, or Rivian, Nikola, Bollinger etc.
  • 3 1
 @AC1987: Indeed they will have some competition! However, Tesla is calling the shots and they are years ahead. Boy people like to talk about cars in this bike forum. If Ford brings their electric F-150 to market in 2022 (already delayed!) they will get many customers but for legacy auto, bringing electric ranges in under the same name is like chewing off a limb. They'll have to do it somehow, but it won't be pretty.
  • 3 1
 @AC1987: Like I said, VW has a shot. But the Big 3 have consistently shown that they cannot get out of their own way. And Tesla keeps announcing Gigafactory after Gigafactory. I'd love some competition, but to say they can catch up in 2-3 years would only work if Tesla was standing still. And they're kinda moving at Warp 10.
  • 3 2
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: @Chuckolicious: The point is that Tesla is very innovative, however, one of the reasons the stock dropped dramatically after the Battery day announcements is that the announcements were evolutionary not revolutionary. I'm definitely not saying anything is wrong with Tesla, but the large automakers have many many more factories (Tesla has 3 or 4 currently operating) and the other companies also have global distribution and supply chains already. In any case, Tesla has to do something revolutionary to keep ahead of the curve.

Tesla is only working at warp speed in their own bubble because they are drastically ramping up production etc. VW Produced 11,000,000 vehicles in 2019 Tesla produced 367,500... it will take a long time to catch up! But in reality Tesla is noted for tech but there have been well publicized quality issues and they do tap the same supply chains for many parts (gear selector is straight Mercedes). The other automakers will have a challenge to catch up, but like you said they have brand loyalty already.

In any case - I like Tesla, but not a fan fanboy. Tesla has to keep being "revolutionary" to justify it's "Tech" company market Cap which is unjustified by revenue, or it will eventually become just another very large automaker!
  • 6 4
 @StanMarsh: and a transphobe, and a law breaking union buster, and a covid denier... basic billionaire trash
  • 4 4
 @cyclecuse: Dang, did Musk touch you inappropriately or something???
  • 1 0
 @HurricaneCycles: LOL. Well, at least we can eat the eggs, so to speak. Omelette, anyone?
  • 26 1
 Tesla's PR (as usual) published the figures around the battery in a really misleading way - they make it sound like this new cell has 5X the *specific* energy (I.e. per weight or volume) of the old cells. They do not. These new batteries have 5.5X the volume of a 2170. So it is not any great innovation that they have 5X the energy of the 2170 cell, nor 6X the power. You would get about the same result from just using five 2170 cells. What is innovative is that they were able to maintain and even improve the power performance in a larger format cell. It is hard to get heat out of the cells as they get bigger, and Tesla seems to have reduced the heat losses to enable that. That is probably where most of the 16% range improvement comes from, and some of it from packaging efficiency of using fewer large cells vs the old many small cells.

Please don't reward Tesla's marketing department by repeating the 5X or 6X claim. 16% (aka 1.16X) is the real actual improvement, and that is quite significant in it's own right.
  • 8 6
 It's an environmentally conscientious mode of transport that does 0-60 in three seconds, and that one buys with profit from shorting petroleum stocks
  • 2 5
 Tesla doesn't have a marketing department (other than Elon). They have never had to advertise their products.
  • 14 1
 @mtbken: ha, you just repeated a line straight from Tesla's marketing department. Tesla has never bought ads. That is not the same as not marketing their product. They have the best PR department in the business.
  • 5 1
 @ceecee: oh, I'm a massive advocate of vehicle electrification. I'm also a fan of Tesla and their products. I just happen to know a lot about battery technology, and I hate bullshit.
  • 1 0
 You mention the packaging efficiency, but my thinking is that you can't pack large cells as tight - there will be bigger gaps. I haven't done calcs, but that's my hunch
  • 6 1
 @ohio: Not sure why this is even talked about. Battery day wasn’t about breakthrough technology to revolutionize the world. It never was meant to be either. It was about a series of improvements that combine to lower the cost of electric vehicle manufacturing by a substantial margin.

I personally think it’s cool that my bike is gonna get some trickle down from that eventually. I like the idea of a lighter Ebike with the same power.
  • 3 0
 @thingswelike: There are two packaging benefits that come with larger cells. 1) you don't get the stack up of gaps. Current state of the art for safe 18650 and 2170 packs is a 1mm cell to cell distance. Geometrically a honeycomb of cylinders will always have the same ratio of space within the cylinders as outside, but the gap between cylinders is the difference. Put five cells in a row, and you have a total of 4mm of gap. With the larger cells (of an assumed high efficiency given the power figures) you may be able to get away with a 2mm gap and so have cut the "wasted" space by 50%. This also works along the axis of the cells... i.e. if they used to use 4 layers of honeycomb that meant either 4 or 8 PCBs sandwiching those honeycombs. Now they can maybe get away with 2 or 3 layers of honeycomb. 2) they now have a larger interface on the bottom face of the cylinder from which to draw heat. Alta Motors pioneered this cooling method in the Redshift dirt bike in 2015, but Tesla has since adopted it in the Model 3 and it's a safe assumption that its intended for this cell as well. It is easier to get a good tight connection for heat transfer to the larger flats, also for tolerance reasons but not exactly the same as in #1. In the past you would fight against the challenge of getting the heat to the surface of a large cell (which is why an 18650 pack typically has higher power but lower energy than a 2170 pack), but it sounds like this cell has very low internal resistance given the power ratings.
  • 7 0
 @HurricaneCycles: Only because of the way they promoted the "5X increase in energy and 6X increase in power." It just got my goat. The 16% improvement at the pack level is actually quite remarkable and should be celebrated, but no one should get a pat on the back when their 5.5 gallon bucket holds 5X as much water as their 1 gallon bucket.
  • 1 0
 I think if there is a great improvement in the C rate than it could be a great evolution, the ability to charge at a extremely high rate is really what Tesla is aiming for. Adding range isn't really necessary when you're seeing 300-500 mi range currently, yes kg/kWh is important, but really the most important metrics are $/kWh and the ability to regain range as fast as an equivalent ICE vehicle for mass adaption. I currently have a 2017 Nissan Leaf, I paid less than $12k USD for a two year old car with 10k mi that listed for over $35k. As a second car in the area where I live, its damn near perfect. Range anxiety is a real thing however.
  • 19 4
 It amazing to see that batteries after all these years still are not up to the task. It just shows how our bodies are amazing, you eat a steak, drink some water and you can go for hours on that (and even are bodies are very inefficient in transforming energy).
Use your best battery people (your own body) as much as you can and leave ebikes for those that has disabilities or suffer from older age!
  • 7 2
 My friend who eats a lot of steak sadly can't go on for hours. He get's hungry fast and sours quickly. He has lots of momentum downhill though.
  • 1 0
 True but steak doesn't exactly oil your chain though
  • 1 0
 The combination is what matters, and mostly for road riding and commuting. I look forward to having a road bike where its fairly light enough to where you can keep it going once the batteries run out.
  • 19 1
 Full self driving means a car that will shuttle you.
  • 6 1
 That would be number one reason to buy a cyber truck! Self shuttle runs = The Future.
  • 5 4
 @Caiokv: whistler bike park is gonna sell the chairlifts and buy a couple tesla semis to tow everyone up the hill
  • 21 12
 Look I bought an ebike. I'll charge it a bunch of times and the manufacturer of the batteries and carbon frame were bad for the environment. Get over yourself, is my hobby of going out to ride my bike worse for the world than someone who doesn't ebike but they spent the weekend sniffing coke that came from the suppression of local populations and has lead to wars. Or someone who drinks all night and is then a burden on society when they get sick or arrested?
This dishing out to the individual to be a perfect human being is lame man, when are we collectively going to point the finger at big oil, plastic producers and policy makers our own individual efforts are great for tit for tat speach chat but by the time you've finished reading this then my ebike will be charged and I'm getting out my bike rack
  • 5 3
 Well said, totally agree.
  • 17 10
 No, it isn't worse than the things you mentioned. Do you honestly believe though that not riding an e-bike automatically makes you an alcoholic coke head? That is some serious mental gymnastics whataboutism if I have ever seen any.
  • 3 1
 I was wondering how a comment like this got upvoted, but then it dawned on me that this comment section is made up of people who didn't filter out the ebike news.. So it's bound to be a one sided list of attempts to justify buying an ebike. All I can say is I hope the next gen batteries can be fitted to old ebike frames
  • 3 5
 @GBeard: it's a comparison dude. So much aggression being slung about on this website to ebikers when yes a hell of a lot of people are sat around f*cking up the planet in their own selfish ways but it's never talked about. So I made the point about people that mindlessly consume drugs etc to highlight that there's a lot of hypocrisy
  • 5 3
 not sure I agree that its cool to act irresponsibly just because others act worse?
  • 1 2
 @nordland071285: even mountain biking, to a degree, is "acting irresponsibly." Most people are going to leave the environment worse than it was before their existence and keeping the onus on individuals is great for the oil industry to wash their hands. Judging people based on one of their actions is BS, the real change needs to be political. If you really want to judge someone for assaulting the environment, then judge parents; having kids is the worst thing you can do for the environment. I found this article very interesting if you want to know about how the oil industry wants to push the onus to individuals. mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sham/?europe=true
  • 2 0
 @FatSanch: but it's individuals as well, right?
I'm not saying oil companies aren't a big part of the problem, but shifting the blame to solely them gives individuals an excuse to act irresponsibly
  • 2 2
 @nordland071285: Yes, 100% everyone should do their part. But judging individuals based on a sigular action is unfair at best. You may think someone is irresponsible for riding an emtb, and there is someone else who thinks you are irresponsible for riding mtb. We all have a threshold for how much we can commit to the environment, but the fact is that 99.9999% of us are going to leave this place worse than we found it through no true fault of our own. So it's better to focus on changing politics rather than individuals (other than oneself). And if people insist on judging individuals, then they should focus on parents and 1 percenters rather than the dude riding an emtb.
  • 3 1
 @nordland071285: personally I think I'm acting responsibly ebiking, keeping fit and healthy doing a positive outdoor sport, sharing fun experiences and spreading good vibes where I can. So I charged my battery before riding oh wow I'm such a burden on the planet. Come on maaate you can do better than that surely
  • 2 0
 @mrwynnewillson: could you have done the same on a normal bike though? That's my point really, we should be going forwards not backwards
  • 2 1
 @nordland071285: How do you know that @mrwynnewillson isn't offsetting his battery charging (which, let's be honest, isn't that big of a deal) some other way? What if he used to shuttle, but doesn't anymore due to the ebike? My point is that judging individuals is pointless. Some researchers at MIT calculated the carbon footprint of homeless people in the US getting food from a soup kitchen, and they emitted 8,5tons of CO2 every year (in that same link above). So as an individual, we are helpless to leave the planet better than we found it simply through reducing our consumption, which is why our time is better spent fighting in politics rather than each other. By all means, consume less, use less electricity, etc, just don't judge individuals for the choices they are making because 1) you don't know their whole story, and 2) no individual can ever do enough by merely reducing consumption.
  • 1 1
 @nordland071285: look I do actually get you and with what seems to be like a new world where people have finally started to care about these environmental issues for an industry to start shelling out ebikes with batteries and that it does make one wonder if we all do care enough. But I'm sorry its just I'm really not part of that percentage of people that mess up the planet. I mean I am for being alive and also by having enough money to travel and make choices but the ones who really need to reduce and who actually can make huge differences and inspire others ain't me and you son. It's corporate UK gas Russia Oil Saudis and Frackin Americans the list goes on mate. I'm glad you ride a mountain bike cos it means your probably a decent bloke
  • 8 2
 Real talk here, The battery market is all about volume, Don't expect to see the best batteries in the E bike market for a long time, it is just too small. Be happy with the stock 18650 cells that are in there, because they ain't changing anytime soon. this is more or less the message from the author too.
  • 6 0
 I find it incredible people think emtb will take place of a vehicle in any significant amount of situations. Id bet most mountain bikers live in urban or suburban areas and are at least on average 10-15 miles from any trailhead. They'll still drive their cars just to save time. E-commuter bikes will be better for the environment, not emtb's.
  • 1 0
 Shuttling
  • 1 0
 @MorganBH:
'In any significant amount of scenarios'

Most mtb's aren't being shuttled.
  • 1 0
 A lot of people buy mountain bikes because they are "cooler" than road or commuter bikes, even if they ride on the road.
  • 7 1
 Dentists are lining up to place a down payment on a $25K bike 3 years down the road!
  • 5 2
 I’m a bit confused by this article. Prof goodenough won the noble prize for developing lithium ion batteries and it has transformed our lives. He’s is now 101:years old and still innovating. He was also involved with the development of ram. The guy is like a scientific Jesus.

One of his students has been investigating solid state batteries - they are the future. Cheaper, more efficient and with more capacity. - that is the future. Surprised mr musk has not been pushing this tech because it would kill the petrol engine dead.


www.idtechex.com/en/research-report/solid-state-and-polymer-batteries-2019-2029-technology-patents-forecasts/641
  • 2 0
 I had to look up the name - I couldn't believe it was real, but it is!
  • 4 1
 Guys, what if... You know most of us use breakes on downhills. But what if batteries would be light enough be effective to charge on going down and slightly help on uphills? I mean not an eMTB that constantly charges from socket , but smart power circuit that get energy on descends and can give some additional power when needed?
  • 1 0
 Been tried many times. Humans + bike simply isnt enough mass at the speeds we ride to return any substantial energy.
  • 8 0
 @HurricaneCycles: I was drunk yesterday
  • 5 1
 Hopefully they will refine the technology enough by the time I’m 60. In the meantime leg-watts are the most environment-friendly and cheap technology for me.
  • 2 0
 James, this was a useful and well-written article, thanks.

One minor quibble with the wording in this sentence: "[Watt-hours] is a measure [of] how many watts can be delivered in an hour". It would be more clear to word this as "[Watt-hours] is a measure of how many watts can be maintained for an hour". A watt isn't some discrete quantity (like electrons or Amazon packages) you need to get to a destination; it's a level of power you need to *maintain* over that time period.

Anyway, quibbles aside, I found this a useful primer, thanks.
  • 2 0
 I'm sorry in advance for my probable spelling mistakes
We never talk about extraction and purification of petrol before you buy it at the pump. Oil spills risks, refining operation destruct our environment from long time ago. It's a huge impact before we burn it into our cars with only 25 percent yield and we very often minimize it in order to stay focus on petrol. Please, have a look on Alberta extraction of bithuminous sand. Just 1/3 of the world consumption and try to not go forward on another energy (not if generated by fossile ressources of course).

Batteries are just starting their evolution. We definitely cannot compare 100 years of petrol industry with only 10-15 using Li-ion energy. Batteries are not perfect and I say big up to Elon Musk trying to move forward and make it better year after year. Cobalt, Lithium and providing rare hearth are problems but we can fit with R&D and government helps. Do we don't try anything to keep better this planet? I am one of those who want to stop fossile use in order to save a bit more our common atmosphere.
For sure, in parallel we have to recycle, reduce our consumption and try not to be so sensitive to stupid marketing that always want we buy useless things.
For me, it's very difficult for bikes :/
  • 2 0
 What I see, is that users of bikes and motor-vehicle (let's call it simply vehicle), usualy switch model every couple of years. I do think everyone agrees on this.

What happens to this vehicles, is that normally it has a second life with the 2nd, 3rd or even 4th owner or more, depending of how long owners keep the same vehicle.

After this "second life", it's just an old fart, that will be bitten to deadth from it's (ab)users. In this period maintenance is more a replace after fail (and only if it's not that expensive).

This type of (ab)use and maintence will throw much of this vehicles to the trash/recycling.
And here starts the real problem with today's vehicles.
Some materials are hard to recycle, and some are cheaper to harvest than recycle.

What happen in the last 30 years, is that this cycle was shorten, and people rotate much more vehicles (and Things).
Long were the days, where our grandfather stooked with the same car, year after year...decade after decade, and some are still in grandsons garage to be refurbished.

All this problem is even bigger if this lifestyle is spread to countries with large population.
I'm not saying to restrict access, but I think we need to rethink our ways and behave.

If all Americans and Europeans reduce by 3%/year the electrical bill/gas bill, could you imagine the global impact (and it's only 3%, which in reallity is nothing!)
I'm forward baby steps towards big changes, and radicalization is just a way to create separation and non-believrs among all.

Regarding batteries, too much must be done, otherwise Hidrogen will take it over, and in a few years it will happen what occurr with the first cars when Petrol started to be using.
In 2 to 3 years the goal should be to release a batterie with the power to weight equal to gasoline.
  • 2 0
 "In fact, the total embedded CO2 for the making of a gasoline-powered car is 5.6 tonnes. By contrast, it takes 8.8 tonnes to make an electric vehicle and the battery accounts for nearly half of that." This is why I am not a fan of e-bikes. people just don't understand the waste that ensues because it's now a "thing"
  • 1 0
 Apparently my ebike filter doesn't filter the popular article list at the bottom of stories... ...Anywho, not a Elon Musk fan in the least and don't understand the demigod like reverence some folks have for him, but us Americans seem to like a good ol' authoratarian these days.... Just wanted to point out that all along it has been Panasonic and others paving the way in terms of battery technology. Tesla hasn't done jack and for years their 'tech' has been packaging of standard 18650 cells. This new 'tech' is all Panasonic as it always has been.
  • 1 0
 You lose all faith when the person writing the article clearly hasn't done any research at all...

The photo of the battery cell captioned "Tesla and Panasonic's 21700 cell was huge news when it was announced in 2017." Is an 18650, NOT a 2170. (Also the URL on the cell is teslamotors.com/detroit2015. Why would that be on a cell developed in 2017?!)

"Tesla doesn't currently use 18650"
Tesla DO still use 18650 cells.

Stick to bikes, stop using Tesla news as clickbait, you clearly know nothing about it.
  • 1 0
 Nice to have people like Musk rooting for the overthrow of Democratically elected governments so people don't actually have to pedal their bikes;
www.indepthnews.net/index.php/opinion/3735-we-will-coup-whoever-we-want-elon-musk-and-the-overthrow-of-democracy-in-bolivia
  • 1 0
 Elon Musk showed his true colors describing the overthrow of the Morales government in Bolivia. Might want to give that some thought an pedal your own bike;
NORTHAMPTON, Massachusetts (IDN) – On July 24, 2020, Tesla’s Elon Musk wrote on Twitter that a second U.S. “government stimulus package is not in the best interests of the people.” Someone responded to Musk soon after, “You know what wasn’t in the best interest of people? The U.S. government organizing a coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia so you could obtain the lithium there.” Musk then wrote: “We will coup whoever we want! Deal with it.”

Musk refers here to the coup against President Evo Morales Ayma, who was removed illegally from his office in November 2019. Morales had just won an election for a term that was to have begun in January 2020. Even if there was a challenge against that election, Morales’ term should rightfully have continued through November and December of 2019. Instead, the Bolivian military, at the behest of Bolivia’s far right and the United States government, threatened Morales; Morales went into exile in Mexico and is now in Argentina.

At that time, the “evidence” of fraud was offered by the far right and by a “preliminary report” by the Organization of American States; only after Morales was removed from office was there grudging acknowledgment by the liberal media that there was in fact no evidence of fraud. It was too late for Bolivia, which has been condemned to a dangerous government that has suspended democracy in the country.

Lithium Coup

Over his 14 years in office, Morales fought to use the wealth of Bolivia for the Bolivian people, who saw—after centuries of oppression—remarkable advances in their basic needs. Literacy rates rose and hunger rates dropped. The use of Bolivia’s wealth to advance the interests of the people rather than North American multinational corporations was an abomination to the U.S. embassy in La Paz, which had egged on the worst elements of the military and the far right to overthrow the government. This is just what happened in November 2019.

Musk’s admission, however intemperate, is at least honest. His company Tesla has long wanted access at a low price to the large lithium deposits in Bolivia; lithium is a key ingredient for batteries. Earlier this year, Musk and his company revealed that they wanted to build a Tesla factory in Brazil, which would be supplied by lithium from Bolivia; when we wrote about that we called our report “Elon Musk Is Acting Like a Neo-Conquistador for South America’s Lithium.” Everything we wrote there is condensed in his new tweet: the arrogance toward the political life of other countries, and the greed toward resources that people like Musk think are their entitlement.

Musk went on to delete his tweet. He then said, “we get our lithium from Australia”; this will not settle the issue, since eyebrows are being raised in Australia regarding the environmental damage from lithium mining.

Just sayin'
  • 1 0
 Related to the subject, our newest product the Revonte AKKU uses the 21700 cell standard mentioned in the article. At the moment AKKU is the only commercially available e-bike battery using this latest Li-ion cell technology.

Learn more from our press release.

revonte.com/company/press/revonte-akku-the-most-flexible-e-bike-battery
  • 8 6
 My reasons for rejecting e-mountainbikes are of categorical nature and go beyond technical specification. No new battery tech will change that.
  • 2 1
 @jamessmurthwaite @mikelevy since this is the extent of scope which we're down for qualifying mtb news, I hope we can also get a full review on whatever this thing is:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1TRRiLOw0Q
  • 1 1
 Looks pretty stupid at first but if you fast forward to 2 mins in this trailer it kind of seems legit...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqOJ0xpGl68
  • 1 1
 @me2menow: they reviewed that a couple weeks ago
  • 1 1
 @DoubleCrownAddict: not a review, but youre right it was featured and I missed it completely
www.pinkbike.com/news/video-new-ubisoft-video-game-lets-you-ride-red-bull-rampage.html
  • 3 2
 my 21700 's are sweet and still will be useable/sellable when the new cells come out to play ! the battery pack has already paid for/proven itself in a few months !
  • 6 3
 Dumber, fatter, and for longer.
  • 1 2
 @James Smurthewait I watched the battery day presentation. One point you seem to have missed regarding the design of the new, larger cells is improved thermal performance, which seems to contradict or leave in doubt your argument about heat being a barrier to using them in ebikes.
  • 2 0
 It means you can put your bike in your Tesla and ride up to 800km from your home ?
  • 1 3
 I work at a wind farm. Our rates got cut 60%! We used to supply the local housing grid . We are now looking for an industrial buyer. If incentives financially for those who can afford this type of investment goes there won’t be any advances in technology. Elon musk might be a super hero or a secret spy? Who knows, but he’s making something happen. I’m still waiting for a late model 4x4 electric truck with some dents so I can afford it.
  • 3 1
 California Governor Newsome " All mountain bikes will be electric by 2025"
  • 2 1
 Tesla needs to buy Specialized bikes...
I’d like a Ludacris mode my Levo 700D
  • 1 3
 @jamessmurthwaite I watched the battery day presentation. One point you seem to have missed regarding the design of the new, larger cells is improved thermal performance, which seems to contradict or leave in doubt your argument about heat being a barrier to using them in ebikes.
  • 4 2
 oh look, elon musk talking bollocks again.
  • 2 1
 Mass production by poor people in very polluted countries for us mass consumers in economic civilized countries.
  • 2 0
 I want my bike like my music unplugged
  • 1 0
 I like to work hard to rationalize not being able to afford things I want to buy too.
  • 2 1
 you get a free case of Brawndo with every Tesla purchase
  • 1 1
 It’s what plants crave
(Eff you, I’m eating)
  • 2 2
 Elon Musk has said Tesla will not build a motorcycle as he was almost killed on one.
  • 2 1
 My thighs are trained for maximum wattage output.
  • 2 1
 Call when Tesla announces a self-driving bike.
  • 2 3
 And we’re still burning shit to generate electricity & a lot of that shit is coal world wide, this is the problem where’s your electricity coming from?
  • 1 0
 I just came for the comments. Keep on fighting.
  • 1 0
 Tabless is the future. Reduced flats, less weight and better efficiency.
  • 1 0
 tesla: 600% better
real life: 6% better
  • 3 2
 Powerful stuff here
  • 3 3
 Hopefully it comes with Ludicrous Mode
  • 2 2
 potato chips over computer chips
  • 7 7
 Electronic motor bikes suck!
  • 2 3
 It means cool guys can do more laps, and grandpas can do more bike paths at mach 2.7 ::: sunglasses emoji:::
  • 1 1
 I started with an ebike, and now i own so so many bikes.
  • 5 7
 Check out the articles about Nikola SEC investigations. Tesla just likes to pump and dump their stock.
  • 6 2
 Can you please tell me how you think Trevor Milton when you read Elon Musk? Your literally comparing apples to freaking space cadets.

Nikola earned their current infamy.

Tesla has been at work for nearly 10 years trying to solve real issues and now that they are finally building factories and bringing their product to mass market, they have been rewarded for it. Hardly a short term strategy.

You can fight it all you want but every major auto manufacturer has commuted large chunks of its Future earnings to EV development and whole governments (California as of now) have passed laws prohibiting the sales of new ICE vehicles In the future. Tesla is many years ahead of the the game with proprietary tech. Sure they may come down later when the rest of the world catches up but that won’t be very several years.
  • 3 5
 @HurricaneCycles: tesla have no new battery tech, they "developed" a cell with slightly different dimensions, othing more.
  • 3 1
 @b45her: I think you need to do a bit more research and double check all the points from battery day. There’s lots of little changes that add up to a pretty substantial change in capability. They didn’t design a radically different product. They Optimized and streamlined an entire process based around a product.

You and I will never be able to fully appreciate it that type of innovation until things start to change. Once this gets up to full scale, prices will start to fall dramatically around the entire industry. Hopefully that happens just in time for another big improvement. And then we go thru this cycle all over again.
  • 3 3
 @HurricaneCycles: batteries haven't changed in 25 years or so they are a dead end technology, energy density is all that matters and that ain't changing until someone magically finds some extra elements for the periodic table. musk/tesla are modern day snake oil salesmen nothing more. hydrogen fuel cells are a far more viable source of power for vehicles they should be throwing billions at that not pissing all that money away on fantasy battery tech.
  • 2 1
 @b45her: I’m afraid you are sadly mistaken. There are FAR better batteries out there and far better chemistries available with our existing elements. Lithium-Sulphur just being one example. The issue is one of economics. Making those exotic materials available to the public at a price they are willing to pay is the challenge. Tesla could make the million mile battery tomorrow that charges in minutes with a 1000 mile range. No one other than Jeff Bezos could afford it.

Tesla made a conscious choice to radically improve the manufacturing process of an existing technology rather than bring a whole new venture to market.
  • 2 0
 @b45her: All due respect, but you are clearly a total imbecile. Sorry man.
  • 1 0
 @HurricaneCycles: nope the elements and laws of physics haven't changed i'm afraid, there is no difference in the functionality of a crappy expensive battery to a crappy cheap battery, it will still be a heavy impractical power source. if you think anyone on earth could make a battery that charges in minutes with a thousand mile range your a whole new level of deluded. you need to learn a little about how electricity works P=VxI that little formula makes a nonsence of your fantasy battery.
  • 1 0
 @b45her: ok ok I can see my slight hyperbole has been lost on you. Obviously there’s a lot more to it than I simplified. Tesla already has a system available to the public to charge a car with 500 mile range in just 30 minutes. Assuming they just doubled that, it would be 1000 miles in an hour.

You don’t seriously think that’s the best possible battery system that will ever be made do you?
  • 1 0
 @b45her: wow, tripling down on the imbecile. Is this intentional?
  • 9 9
 Ebikes suck!
  • 4 3
 Is that really the best you could do? C’mon man.
  • 4 2
 Straightforward and correct. I'd like that children learn to love cycling and get a nice hobby instead of having their thumb stronger than legs because of non-stop typing in a cell phone and using e-bike.
  • 2 1
 @platnum: Just messing around here, isn’t that what all this is for? I don’t ride an eMTB but I have a few older friends who do. Not my cup of tea. I have few more years in me of actually earning my climbs. Have a good day...
  • 1 2
 e-Ek!
  • 7 10
 A bike with a motor and batteries is called cheating.
  • 3 2
 You born and raised? Or took a bridge or tunnel the first time you showed up?
  • 8 1
 If you're in a non-ebike race, yes it is cheating. Otherwise, you're not in a competition, there are no rules, the concept of cheating doesn't apply*

*Putting your ebike spins on normal bike Strava is pretty lame though
  • 6 0
 Tell that to my broken knees. E-Bikes are a godsend to some of us older types.
  • 1 0
 @BobbyEnglish: You could quite literally be a poster child for the E-bike crowd.
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