Press Release: Cascade Components
As mid-winter rolls around we a pleased to announce two new links! We have developed links for the current Specialized Enduro and Norco Sight models. As with our existing lineup, both links deliver an increase in progression as well as travel to help keep your suspension buttery over chop while increasing bottom out resistance.Specialized Enduro (2020-current)
Our Specialized Enduro link has been designed to take a bike that’s already known for its all-out speed and need for rowdy trails and push those capabilities a step further. With 36% progression and 180 mm of travel, this links brings the bike into mini-dh territory without making the bike any more cumbersome than before. Whether you are riding this bike in the park, pedaling to the chunkiest descents, or shuttling, we believe this link takes the ride quality to the next level. Through our testing on bikes with 230x60 shocks and between 160 and 190 mm of travel, we have found around 35% progression to be a sweet spot for aggressive riding with coils and large volume air shocks. This link puts the kinematics right in that range without altering the geometry.
The Enduro link is currently available in black and silverSpecs and Details:
• 180 mm of travel
• Progression increased to 36% compared to 25% with stock link
• Sealed Enduro MAX bearings
• CNC’d from 6061-T6 in the USA
• Colors: Black and silver
• Cost: $358 USD
Norco Sight (2020-current)
Now I’m sure some of you are thinking “when are you going to make a mullet link for the Enduro?” Long story short, mulletting a horst link bike with the upper link makes the bike a fair bit less progressive so we won’t be making a mullet link for the Enduro. Fortunately for those of you who are keen on mulletting your Enduro, the solution is already out there! Williams Racing Products
out of Australia make a mullet yoke for the Enduro. This yoke preserves the geometry without compromising the leverage curve like an upper link would. Essentially it increases the effective length of your shock, making the bike sit in a higher portion of its leverage curve. If you want to mullet your Enduro this is the way to do it.
The Norco Sight link applies our learnings from the V2 Hightower link to Norco’s layout. This link stretches the Sight’s capabilities such that when it comes to descending it straddles the line between Norco’s all mountain and enduro offerings while handling more rolling terrain just as well as ever. The progression is upped to 25% from 18% while maintaining the stock geometry. Additionally, the travel is increased to 155 mm. We believe these changes make for a more active top of travel, allowing it to glide over roots better, while providing the support needed deeper in travel to pump, boots, and rail corners. As with our other links, pedaling remains unaffected by this one as well.
The Sight link is currently available in black, silver, and purpleSpecs and Details:
• 155 mm of travel
• Progression increased to 25% compared to 18% with stock link
• Sealed Enduro MAX bearings
• CNC’d from 6061-T6 in the USA
• Colors: Black, silver, and purple
• Cost: $358 USD
For more details on these links or any of our others please visit cascadecomponents.bike
As an example, the Sight is perfect in terms of geo, price, frame material options, ect but the lack of progression has me wary. Now I know I'm not locked in to one way it feels, or am going to jam tokens up in there to make it more poppy.
Also, does this link work on the 29 and 27.5 Sight?
Now, there are so many bikes with similar geometry and travel, the Sight being one example (as well as several other bikes that have Cascade links available). Why buy a Sight if you're not into the rear suspension layout when you can get another very similar bike that checks the boxes from stock? If you're going to change such a fundamental aspect of the frame design, to me that suggests you bought the wrong bike.
The Ride Aligned app suggested 237 psi and no volume spacers but I put one spacer in and lowered the psi to right around 195-200 and it’s been great, really matches the 36 Grip2 in every way.
I might look at the CC link down the road, but I don’t see any want or need for it at this point.
availability, price, individual preferences...
Moreover, when you progress, you ride faster and more agressively, You may not want to change your bike or even frame, and a bit of progressivity may be a key to make your bike suit you better.
When you change frame.. you know different headsets, bb, steerer tube lenght, seatpost diameter, different shock.. come on.
Bike, is an art of compromises. Just somethimes it's biggest compromise is kinematics.
Man that is a tough choice..........
Also I think you underestimate the people out there who just want to purchase everything out there for their bike. These people are constantly upgrading just for the sake of fiddling with their bike and trying something new. They probably get a new bike every 2-3 years and tinker with it every season.
This product is aimed at people who hang on to bikes for a long time and try to make them perfect. I don't own bikes long enough to justify something like this, but I completely get why people would seek custom linkages.
Oh so you’re aloud to have one but the rest of us are entitled for making the suggestion. yOu’Re mY fAvOuRiTe kINdA pErSon durrr
It wuold be good to perform tests of bikes (not sure on how to do this), shocks, forks, and this kind of custom links, I am sure we cld learn that marketing is more important than performance.
especially between chainstays and bottombracket/Mainframe?
im thinking of mulleting my enduro too, but i am concerned this might become some kind of mud-grinder in there as there is already lots of dirt piling up there when im riding in the wet...
greetings from germany
One thing I can tell you, is watch your seat stays. They are in the direct line of fire if you broadside something.
Then, as the shock goes deeper into the stroke it gets harder to use remaining travel especially since you had to bump the pressure to offset the initial high leverage.
This might work ok for coil shock but it's going to suck on air.
I know the Sight has kind of made the model obsolete... but there are still lots of us out here riding them.
It can be done even without a custom link,just a 235mm shock with 70mm of travel,but the short link,starts regressive and then,almost halfway through,turns progressive.
It would be nice,if one didn't have to create a custom shock size and have a dip in progression in the midstroke,have to admit.
I think an Enduro with this link, a Zeb or 38 at 180mm and your favorite coil would be pretty amazing for a park bike or super enduro type terrain.
Progressive isnt neccisarily better. Its basically a crutch of shitty suspension and frame manufactures thats been pushed on dumbass pb readers till they believe it. Watch friday fails, mist Ppl dont know shit.
shocks feel less stiction and more like they have decent bottom out resistance when used with progressive linkage, which allows brands to get away with spec’ing cheap shocks to keep bike msrp down and profits up. That is why we have been getting progressive rammed down our throats.
If you have a very progressive bike it will tend to move through most of the beginning and mid travel with little resistance, minimizing traction which is created by pushing wheel agaisnst ground, and allowing the bike to progress so deeply that pedal /chainring/ foot strikes are likely, and then having little more availible travel to absorba real big hit.
Linear bikes can be run with a softer spring, provide more consistent support from the beginning of the travel, the main damping circuit behaves similarly throughout the travel, which is good, can resist too much dynamic sag and compression early -Mid in the travel better, and maybe most importantly the wheel can get out of the way of a big rock by compressing more when its alrady half way through its stroke, rather yhan a progressive bike which would be further in its travel, and also not be able to move the rear wheel out of the way of the hit deep in the travel wirhout transmitting
Much more of the impact.
Of course you’d never have this problem if you just ride your ultra progressive piece of shit on a bunch of lame ass flow trails And never try riding a properly set up linear bike in demanding terrain.
No, its not.
What i was describing is a frame with progressive linkage. The damping rate and spring rate is progressive on a progressive linkage bike, whereas only the spring will be progressive on a shock full of spacers on a linear frame.
Less damping/ more wheel movement to shock movement initially will wallow more and provide less of a pedal platform. If you turn the hsc and or lsc up to firm the beginning it will magnify the damping increase later in the stroke and me more likely to spike harshly without using maximum availible travel to absorption a bump.
@danzzz88 im not gonna argue that the 165 dentist bike is not better, but to attribute it to being more progressive is conjecture as there is a number of variables at play. Your shock tune is likely different, geometry is different, probably some different components tires and a different point in time. Just cause your new bike has more traction the way you ride it doesnt prove to ur point.
Generally, Any bike should be run at the correct sag. Changing the linkage ratio will not change sag point as long as you set up your shock with a correct spring rate. A cavieat to that is the dynamic sag may Likely change because the leverage rate adjacent the sag point might like to sit deeper/shallower, but thats totally adjustable for regardless of leverage ratio.
A good setup will only skip as much as one wants it to. progressive linkages may be easier to keep from skipping around and in a good dynamic sag if you dont have a good suspension setup for yourself and or are not good at keeping the bike pressed against the ground. I think Most hard chargers would agree that they want a bike that resist blowing through its travel yet readily swallows big impacts with square edge bumps, such as when landing into a rock garden. Everything is a trade off. I dont need my suspension to move easily to absorb itty bitty bumps, my tire absorbs those small bumps better. I need my suspension to resist sitting to deeply so theres some travel left to absorb larger bumps beyond my dynamic sag point. I also need the leverage rate to be high enough and spring rate to be low enough that the wheel will actually absorb those deep square edge impacts instead of just bucking me or destroying a wheel or tire.
Ps yeti’s are dentist bikes.
Every bike has to have progression baked into the suspension somewhere if you don’t want to be stuck choosing between rock hard suspension and bottoming out constantly. If you opt for a linear suspension design, you have to compensate with a progressive shock, which has the same curve regardless of what bike it’s on. If you run a linear shock, you have to build the progression into the frame, but you have a lot more control over where and how the progression occurs. Plenty of bikes with a lot of progression have quite a bit of support through the midstroke.
Progressive suspension only equates to wallowing if you try to increase progression to fix the wrong problems. If stiction is a concern, either run a larger negative chamber and better seals or run a coil on a more progressive frame. If you want to run a more linear shock or bottom out your current shock all the time, increasing frame progression is the solution.
The bike industry may see every problem as a nail and progression as a hammer, but that doesn’t mean all of the people looking for more progression are sheep. Plenty of them understand suspension well enough to make informed choices about the best way to make their setups sufficiently progressive.
I dont adjust my low speed compression that blows off easily to control bottom out. and i dont adjust high speed compression to control shallow gentle compressions.
"you shouldn’t be using damping to try to firm up a specific portion of travel" thats exactly what climb switches, propedal, spv are , damping applied to the beginning of the compression stroke, which blow open and have lesser effect on deeper stroke
Some shocks historically and just released use hydraulic or adjustable bottom out. that is also position sensitive damping.
furthermore as the gas in the piggybacks pressure increases by the shock compressing , more pressure is applied to the side of the backside of the shims of the compresssion piston ; the increased pressure on those shims makes them harder to oped the further the shock is into the stroke; which is related to the shaft position .
as you can now hopefully understand, All shocks are position sensitive, you fuggin jackoff.
I’m not totally against progressive designs, especially on long travel bikes with a fairly flat curve and short steep bit of ramp at the end. Also straight lines with a low degree of progressivity are not too difficult, there are lots of progressive curves where the beginning and mid are very soft, which makes it difficult to generate support in the early part and mid part of the travel and yet have the later portion of the travel not feel difficult to access or harsh.
Its really hard to make a very progressive bike feel initially supportive to resist squishing under compressive forces like pumping, but still gobble boulders and gnarly muddy roots. On the other hand if you want a linear linkage bike to feel progressive Or supportive deep in the travel there wre a number of easily achievable ways to do that, such as increasing ifp pressure, decreasing ifp volume, increasing high speed compression damping, using a longer bottom out bumper, using a progressive spring, using a shock with hydraulic bottom out, running a higher spring rate with less preload and low speed compression damping. Valving a progressive bike to have good initial support with a smooth break into bunp damping almost requires some funky threshold valving, spv, propedal type of setup, which sometimes seems to easily lack midstroke support.
My 2019 sight is perfect and the cascade links looks cheap with the 3 torks bolts ...looks like the old norco links( 2018 and older)... and for this price no thanks !
Only way to lower pressure is if your yotally ignoring sag and were using shock pressure or tokens to avoid bottoming, which is acually supposed to be the duty of damping, damping adjusters, bottom out bumper, ifp pressure.
I would assume you like so many pb’ers dont know jack about shocks and think bottom out should be / is controlled by spacers and pressure in your monarch / float etc, and that dampening is the evil lockout switch
And that’s not even taking into account that your Horst link is going to probably bob more while pedaling.
Just curious, have you tried running the frame without any volume spacers and the correct sag?
sometimes people mistake sag, either by irregular body position or poor measuring...
Did you have high and low speed compression turned up most of the way?
The shock blowing up is a problem with the quality of the shock, not that the shock isnt progressive enough...
On a different note, progressive linkages definitely don't feel harsher absorbing deep impacts. Yes the spring is effectively stiffer deeper in travel, but you're not slapping bottom, which is the harshest thing there is, and those are also impacts where you generally want that added support anyway. Riders that are less aggressive will find that the links make it too hard for them to use full travel unless they run excessive amounts of sag, but that is not the group the links are geared towards. Anyone who is thinking about volume spacers, progressive springs, or just over-springing their bike will find the benefits of a progressive link to be very noticeable and with really no downside because the issue they need to solve is not using full travel nearly as frequently.
You said "Ultimately it's the amount of energy going through the damper that will lead failure"
I would argue that plenty of dampers have been made that can stand up to these forces for a year or more of hard use with rather linear linkages and not fail. if anything dampers should require occasional oil change, air seals if youve got em, and check pressure and change du bushings; but if the shocks are blowing up its cause they are weak sauce, defective or misused.
One of the problems i have with Progressive linkages with no alternate linear setting is it's really really hard if not impossible to make a bike feel more linear than the linkage rate would suggest. unlike the inverse where its very easy to make a linear setup feel more progressive.
Progressive linkages also return more force in rebound, although the shock ratio is near 2.2:1 as it returns from full compression many rebound damping circuits struggle to sufficiently dampen the highly compressed spring that has so much more energy stored in it. So when you crank the rebound damping up enough to control deep rebound from a hard landing, it often has a tenancy to return with inadiquate speed near full extension... in my experience. If you use a lower more linear spring/ leverage rate and rely more on compression damping you can manage more force through a sturdy damper and the bike will exibit a more controlable and desirable rebound characteristic, improving traction. Also you can turn down the resistance of a damper reliant suspension setup to deal with greasy chundery rooty square edge condition, unlike with a progressive leverage rate. Then you can just deal with bottom out characteristics independatly with bumpers, HBO, ifp pressure, spring rate, progressive springs, or a 2 position shock mount that offers progressive setting.
you said " Yes the spring is effectively stiffer deeper in travel, but you're not slapping bottom, which is the harshest thing there is, and those are also impacts where you generally want that added support anyway."
I disagree. Most of the shock transmitted to me while riding a properly set up progressive bike comes in the 50-90% compression range. Basically everyone besides like slopestyle riders and ppl who only ride groomer jump trails will experience most of the shock compressions and cumulation of compression forces and average depth of compression to occur at under 90% compression. If those impacts suffered less resistance from the collective rear suspension then less overall force would be felt by the rider.
A well setup bike will gently produce a slight but perceivable thud at full hard bottom out, maybe once a weekend when overshooting or hitting something harder than you would generally intend to. If your bikes bottom out is undetectible even when you go too big, and you are infact not using all of your travel, but you are feeling harsh impacts that slow you donw deep in the travel, then your bikes rear suspension setup is too resistant to using the later stroke and failing to utilize your full suspensions ability to carry speed horizontally through rough surfaces.
Lots of ramp at the shock will have way different rebound speeds at top and bottom of travel compared to a progressive link. In fact if you look at rebound speed at the wheel, the added progression actually helps even out that speed between top and bottom of travel, because at top of travel the wheel will be moving more per mm that the shock moves compared to bottom of travel. That combined with not having a wall of force at the bottom of travel keeps rebound way more consistent. You definitely don't have to crank the damping to get it to feel good. That's not speculation. That's just the physics behind how the shock actually responds.
The issue with relying on compression damping to keep a bike from blowing through its travel is that it inhibits the bike's ability to respond to high frequency impacts. There is not magic compression tune that will allow it to be active over small bumps while simultaneously keeping the bike higher in it's travel. High frequency impacts are really what will kill your hands by the way. Just think Whistler braking bumps.
On to travel range. If you look at data, your rear suspension spends more time high in its travel than you think. A good visual representation of this can be seen in this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=AymT2YNTTbo&feature=emb_title. I would say if you are having an issue with being at 50-90% travel consistently then there is too much sag and/or too slow of rebound. I suppose another issue could be riding with too much weight over the rear, but that's not really suspension related.
Cascade tried to dissuade me from their link based on my claims about pedal strikes in rocky terrain, but I got it anyway. Strikes are no worse. Much fluffier in chunk & returns preloaded energy better. Now I just have to figure out if the 5psi reduction in stock shock vs the 25psi increase in DPX2 to hit sag is appropriate, or something went wrong with DPX servicing....
Can I get purple for my evil offering link?
But it seems PB is fanbois of this company bc they dont mention these glaring issues with this producr, like they would a brand they feel more comfortable throwing under the bus like some small odd manufacture.
What a refreshing response. Truth instead of just sales.
I really respect that.
Thats what i said, the average leverage rare of the enduro after your mod is high, at 3:1. Such leverage historically blow up shock.
With lower ratio like 2:1The shock moves more, but at lower load. A shock moving further to do the same work will see less force on the hydraulic circuits and spring to do the same work. Also moving more oil through the circuit as happens with lower ratios like 2:1 which provides more circulation ie oportunity for oil to cool.
Higher leverage rate puts more force through the hydraulic circuits in a shorter distance, opens the valves more forcefully (which can bend shims) and the air spring will have more pressure behind it at any given point before the linkage switches from high leverage to low leverage, which increases stiction and seal strain.
So yeah, it's a super easy business decision to decide not to support bikes who's numbers are in decline. Volume is where the profit is.
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