Manitou Mattoc - We Are Family

 I’ve always wanted to try the Mattoc. I’ve heard so much good about it and would be nice to compare it to my Pike RCT3 or my Fox 34 FIT4

 Agreed, I got a pike then sent it to avalanche for the open bath damper...now its a mattoc/marzocchi 66

 Yep I have a Pike and can't say anything bad about it... But somehow I want to try the Mattoc

 In what ways are you liking it better than the Pike?

 @daisycutter I've been waiting for the Mattoc 29 for a while--I'm happy they finally brought one to market. I have no complaints with the Pike really... but my first dual suspension bike had a Manitou Minute on it (2007?), so maybe I'm just sentimental for another Manitou. In your opinion, what do you like better about it when compared to your Pike?

 @markar: Thanks markar, very insightful opinion you have there. Really adds to the conversation.

 @markar: You're an idiot!

There, I like getting straight to the point too. No need to qualify an opinion these days, no? ffs...

 been running a mattoc expert for a year and a half and it rips. feels better than the pike on my buddy's bike (but it's not tuned for me I know I know...)

 @steezysam: I know they work great for awhile but they self destruct! The bushings wear out quick and it gets sticky and play develops, I've had lots of strange problems, but maybe this one is ok

 @mikealive: ok fine manitou is the best fork ever!!!! Happy birthday to you

 @markar: hmm no problems yet but I will be wary!

 htt

 @chyu: no he won't go away, just like 26" won't go away

 @Theeeeo: yea, it has only been demolished in the latest poll. Pretty much nobody wants 26" wheels

 I thought the current Mattoc is still available in 26". The difference is the crown assembly if I understand correctly, the lowers are identical to the 27.5" version. So I guess when that "innovation" by Transition takes off (to run a 27.5" wheel in a fork with the offset for a 26" wheel) they'll just dig the old one out. Should obviously go with 26" wheels too. But yeah, I'm surprised too. After all, except for decals and the option to run shorter travel, it doesn't seem like a much different fork compared to the current Mattoc. If in doubt, ask Hayes/Manitou.

 @WAKIdesigns: oh thanks for the heads up man, I didn't realize! I'll go buy a 29er now

 Just use the 27.5" fork on a 26" bike and throw some big volume tires on your 26" rims.

 @WAKIdesigns: doesn't mean that all of my current frames are 26" and I want a fork upgrade tho? I expect I'll be riding 26" for at least the next 3 years... Even tho I ticked dream bike as 650b

 I like it how people get defensive as if wheelsize was dictating their mojo... no I don't really care whether my bike has 26 or 275 wheels in terms of performance. I care for geometry, components and tyre/rim availability. 275 was utter sht move but it's here, so it is time to kiss 26" wheel goodbye until they return as the next niche thing. Yesterday I rode a flow trail where a short travel slopestyle 26" bike would be absolutely perfect

 @WAKIdesigns: Now you made me curious. If 26" or 27.5" doesn't matter in terms of performance, what is it that would made a 26" wheel bike absolutely perfect for that flow trail? Or would 27.5" have been equally absolutely perfect?

 @vinay: Most Flow trails are too easy for giant Enduro bikes. Riding 26" Enduro SX or Trek Ticket is more challenging and thus more rewarding. I cannot say that about riding in chunky terrain. I was speaking more about the geo than wheel size

 @WAKIdesigns: If I understand correctly, you associate 26" wheels with nimble geometry (old geometry in PB talk) and 27.5" or 29" with more stable geometry (or modern geometry in PB talk). Yet at he same time, the wheel size element in that is largely coincidence and not even always true. A mid size Liteville, a 26" BTR or maybe even a DMR Bolt Long has the geometry that isn't too different from what we see now, though of course geometry has to change with wheelsize to get comparable behaviour. Likewise, you could probably have enjoyed similar nimble behaviour on a bike with 27.5" wheels. So that's not what it is all about. The reason people hang on to 26" gear is that we have so much good stuff around that it'd be a huge waste to make the transition. Especially as to be honest there aren't really signs that 27.5" is going to be the most common wheelsize. 26" at least has been a mainstay for a fair while. And even several pro riders stick to it. Yes 27.5" is most common now, but we're seeing more 29" too, 27.5+" has almost come and gone and there have been reports on 26+" too which I haven't seen yet. If you're going to buy a complete bike from a direct sales company you might plan to use it for three years or so anyway. But if you've got a Nicolai, Liteville or a sweet titanium frame, you want it to keep going. These will easily outlive their forks so at some point you want a quality replacement.

 @vinay: majority of first 275 bikes had slacker and longer fronts than the last 26ers. So by average 26ers were indeed more nimble. Although that is a stupid concept anyways since my Carbon Jack is as nimble as I can ever desire. Stumpy 29 evo with 456 chainstays was also nimblish while much shorter Jekyll 2013 was a fkng freight train.

I talked particularly SS/Slalom full suspension bikes like Spec Enduro SX (not the SX Trail) or Meta Vip 4x, or Blkmrkt Killswitch which for my likes is one of the most beatiful mountain bikes ever made.

Again I don't bash 26ers, I just laugh at a weird bunch of people who think there is an army of folks who wants to ride them and only theevil industry and dentists want 275. Well no... at the same time I am ready to laugh in the face of anyone who claims that 275 wheels roll better, they don't. The whole 275 bikes roll better through chunk due to better geos, better rims&tyres (now also available in 26), better suspension.

As I said countless times, a person who boils something dow to a wheel diameter is an idiot.

 @WAKIdesigns: By slack I suppose people mean head angle (because steep seat tubes are all the rage now). My 2007 Cannondale Prophet has a 67deg head angle. It wasn't long ago that it was quite common to see 140mm travel bikes (F/R) with a 67deg head angle and 27.5" wheels. Of course 67deg on a big wheeled bike simply is more stable than on a smaller wheeled bike and 140mm travel is also different between the two. Basically, "slack" doesn't tell the full story. The BTR Ranger is offered in 26", 27.5" and 29" wheels with 63deg, 63.5deg and 64deg head angles respectively. That's the only fair comparison I can find for a frame with similar intentions and different wheel sizes. So no, 26" simply gets the slackest head angles because that's what you need for comparible stability.

By Enduro SX, you mean the bike Matt Hunter used to herd the cows in The Collective movie and Anneke Beerten rode to second place at the Lissboa urban downhill (after ACC)? Well yeah, I also always thought that was the coolest bike ever back then. For some reason it was also quite expensive so it always remained a dream bike. The term SX lost it's meaning in later generations of the Specialized catalog. Actually, I haven't checked it in a couple of years and just did. Things got even more confusing. The Pitch and Fuse aren't quite what you expect them to be !

 I´m more surprised that there is no 180 mm travel with all the new lt bikes... not many companies offering it. It reminds of when fox didn´t do the 36 in 180 travel...back in 2010

 @stefanfresh: Manitou used to have a long travel single crown fork (the Travis) but it used larger diameter stanchions. So chances are if/when Manitou releases a fork like that, it won't be called Mattoc.

 @Theeeeo: is there something wrong with that?

 #shouldhavegonetosleep

 @WAKIdesigns: #butfirstineedtovapesomecbdoil

 @robdpzero: vaping is just as gay as 29ers rofl

 @Theeeeo: Tiny little wheels are silly!

 why is everyone talking about shim stacks like 90% of forks and shocks on the market don't have them? The old Motion Control dampers are the only ones I can think of where there isn't an adjustable shim stack. It just has one preloaded shim to blow-off to prevent compression lockout from destroying your seals.

Every shock and fork I own except for the MC on the Yari has shims on one or both sides of the damper piston, and in some cases more shims hidden elsewhere.

 @WaterBear: because as far as most end users are concerned 90% of forks may as well have a solid billet of Aluminium to provide damping. They're either near impossible to tune full stop or the info on tuning is only something that tuning shops are privy to (granted that is there sole purpose..). Manitou is empowering end users to get a good, shimmed tune for a fraction of the cost of most equivalently shimmed dampers which means you not only get a lot of fork for your money but we can also be rid of the cost and associated communication problems of dealing with a tuning shop.
Compare the price points - Yari and even the new grip dampers aren't true shimmed dampers. Afaik the Mattoc is (haven't explored it fully myself) AND it's cheaper still.

 @ThomDawson: Thank you for the explanation. I take it the shim stacks are user tunable in some way that's simpler than your typical damper, and / or the information is made readily available by Manitou.

Implicit in what you are saying is that high speed adjustments thru shims are rare at this price point. It's worth pointing out that they are *not* rare in more expensive forks, and in just about any shock.

 @WaterBear: Yeah, I believe they provide information on how to configure the valving and as such, tune damping internally as well as providing shim kits for their forks. But the level of external adjustment is also pretty good for this price point. It's easy to see why people are excited about the Mattoc, me included.

 @ThomDawson: I've got to be honest, that sounds pretty great. I like working on my own suspension and none of the manufacturers I currently use (DVO, Fox, Rockshox) explain how to custom tune their shim set up - perhaps understandably.

It would be fun to crack open a fork on a rainy day and dink with the shim stacks in an intelligent way.

 I might see a doctor about that

 ????

 @tfree: Goonch is a type of fish.

 I just bought a commencal that came with a yari and while I don't have much experience on high end components, I personally thought it performed admirably. What is it that you dislike about the Lyrik? Or anyone else for that matter?

 @heffernw: the charger damper is overdamped. Otherwise they're pretty good...except damping is really all a fork needs to get right. Rockshox put other things above damping such as the need for a lock out for example (who wants to lock out their 'enduro' fork ffs) when what we all really need is more tuneable damping. I'm told the reason we all must suffer the air spring is the ease of setup for a wide range of riders and terrain and yet we're all supposed to use the same damping tune? Manitou gets it - let riders tune their damping to suit them and the terrain.

 @heffernw: its untunable. It dives when you need it not too the most. Midstroke support sucks and you dont use the last 1" of travel.
I actually use then trail mode for dh and the open mode for climbing

 @scary1 @ThomDawson : Ok thanks guys. I was considering putting the charger damper in my yari, but is that an issue that the avalanche damper would solve?

 @heffernw: yes. Avalanche makeover is on the list next. Was waiting to see what Push going to do,but that looks like a bust for anything RS.

 Which is f*cking bad ass right? Im down for some batman spec forks straight from Lucious...Fox. Wait.

 I love my Mattoc (650b/160mm), but it is not really stiff (95kgs).
All Manitou forks I owned had more flex than my Rockshox (Reba, Pike etc).

 The 29er Mattoc is limited to 140mm, their chart is sorta confusing.

 I believe suntour do a 29er with 180 mm travel

 @christillott: where? Haven't heard of it. MRP and Formula Stella go to 160

 @gonecoastal: sorry 170mm and its durolux 29er

 @gonecoastal: google suntour durolux 29er

 @christillott: No idea who is neg propping you. Thanks for the info. Forgot about that one. Doesn't show on the Suntour site that I've viewed a few times in the past.

Need to find out the offset on it now.

Wonder when something else will show up from DVO, X-Fusion and Öhlins now?

 @gonecoastal: it could be something thats yet to be out, maybe in the pipeline, just saw a feature on pb for those forks

 @christillott: Yeah looks to be in the works. Taipei sneak peak it was.

 @gonecoastal: I just upvoted every comment by you and @christillott.

I gotchu fam.

 @WaterBear: sweet bro

 @gonecoastal: looks promising dude

 @riiz: 140?!!.Balls.

 I actually like the arch behind the wheel. If you look at the bike from the front, you don't see the arch so it looks much more clean.