To the Point - Kirk Pacenti on 27.5-inch Wheels
Kirk Pacenti was already an accomplished frame builder by the time the 29er was gaining traction as the cure for all of the perceived ailments of the original 26-inch mountain bike. Pacenti could see the collision course that big-wheel developers were headed towards as the 29er evolved from its hardtail roots to gain acceptance across the entire spectrum of the sport. That traffic jam was designing the 29er to be a viable long-travel, dual-suspension platform. He predicted well in advance, that a mid-sized wheel would make more sense. To back up his well-supported theories, he designed and produced wheels and tires made in the existing 650B size at his own expense, and then visited any bike company or publication that would listen to explain the concept. This is the story of Kirk Pacent's one-man battle to insert a sensible, more user-friendly wheel standard between the existing 26-inch wheel and the relatively new, 29-inch size.
The prototype 650B hardtail that Kent Eriksen built for Pacenti in 2007 was first shown at the North American Handmade Bike Show. The fork was a custom made White Brothers by MRP and the one-off wheels were made by Cane Creek. Pacenti's tires had not yet been delivered by Panaracer.
What was the impulse that inspired you to develop a MTB version of 650B?The main impulse was driven by two things. First, was my frustration with 29er handling in high-speed, tight corners. Second, were the design hurdles one had to overcome to design a decent handling full-suspension bike with more than 80-millimeters of travel. Today, that might not seem like such a problem, because 29er designs have come a long way with the help of one-by drivetrains, forks with appropriate amounts of offset, and recent trends in frame geometries. But, seven years ago, I felt as if we (the industry) were putting the cart before the horse. In other words: producing questionable full-suspension frame designs just to accommodate 29-inch wheels. I wanted to use the proven frame geometry of 26-inch-wheeled bikes, but fill up the available space in those designs with a larger wheel. If you look at a typical 26-inch hardtail, you’ll note that there is a lot of space between the rear tire and the bottom bracket shell. With a 650B wheel, we can use up that space and we only need to make small tweaks to the frame design - a little more bottom bracket drop, and slight adjustment to the head tube angle to produce the desired amount of mechanical trail.
When was that? What was the landscape of the sport like at the time?I started messing around with the concept in 2004. I spent two years trying to convince tire manufacturers to make some 650B tires. But at that time, 29ers were really starting to gain traction in the market and nobody was interested. It seemed that the industry thought 29ers were the answer to everything, and were in no way interested in a third wheel size. So, in late 2006 I started developing my own tires and contracted Panaracer to make them for me. I think the timing was just about right too, with the rise of 125 to 160-millimeter-travel trailbikes and Super-D-Enduro type bikes. I knew that this is where 650B made the most sense (to start with) and would really improve the overall performance of these bikes, as well as prove the 650B wheel size as a viable option.
Photographed a few years later, the same prototype frame, updated and outfitted with a 650B Manitou Minute fork, Pacenti wheels and his Neo Moto 2.3-inch tires. Pacenti now offers a modest range of rims, hubs, pre-built wheels and tires through his web-store.
At the time, who did you think were most likely to embrace 650B for mountain bikes?Initially I approached custom framebuilders. I had a strong customer base through my bikelugs.com site, and I knew they could go into their shops and make bikes pretty quickly. I also thought it would give them a competitive advantage over big brands by being able to offer a real alternative to what the major brands were putting out. But my primary goal was to get small, innovative suspension designers behind it. Companies like Turner, Knolly Pivot and Ventana were some of first to express interest. When I started calling these companies they “got it” before I could even get the words “mid-size-wheel” out of my mouth. These designers understood the implications and positive impact the 650B wheel size would have on full-suspension design immediately. That is when I knew I was on the right track. To a man, they all pretty much said, “If we could get a fork today, we’d build the frames tomorrow." That was about five years ago, and each of these brands have a 650B bike out now.
How did you get tires and rims made?Tires were the hard part and the key to making the whole thing work. Fortunately Panaracer was willing to produce tires for me in small volumes, and we launched the Neo-Moto in 2007. The fact that the Neo-Moto turned out to be a great tire was probably the single, most important factor in the success of 650B. Had the tire been a poor performer, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now. By comparison; rims were easy, because 650B had already been making strong inroads into the US market with touring and randonneuring bikes. There were already some decent rims available, but I wanted to get some real MTB rims made, so I made some calls to encourage Velocity and Stan’s to get on board - and they both seemed happy to jump in and support the concept.
Did you build your first prototypes for demonstrators?No. I designed one bike and had Kent Eriksen build the frame for me. I showed this bike at the NAHBS show in March, 2007 and then I sent it to Dirt Rag for a review. I never intended to build more bikes. I wanted to focus on promoting the concept to my framebuilder customers and the industry at large, supporting them with tires and rims. I knew if 650B wheels were going to be commercially successful, it would only happen by getting a lot of other people and companies to produce the bikes.
Did you just guess on the geometry, or did you have a plan? After building thousands of frames, I pretty much knew exactly what the geometry should be. The difference between 26-inch and 650B only required minor changes from 26-inch frame designs. My prototype has slightly longer chainstays than I would have liked, but we built it before the tires were ready, so we made them a little longer, just to be safe. It also has a steep head tube angle by today’s standards, but I built the bike for me and I like sharp-handling hardtails. If that bike was intended for a customer, the head tube angle would have been much slacker.
Pacenti learned a lot while assembling and TIG welding frames atKeith Bontrager's original operation near Santa Cruz, California. Pacenti's
main business is selling hard-to-get lugs, tubes and fittings to custom
frame makers. - Pacenti archival image
So, you have wheels and tires, how did you go about convincing people to use them? I just started sending out rims and tires, and in some cases complete wheels for product managers and magazines to test, and promoted the idea heavily on MTBR. The idea of a mid-sized wheel resonated with a lot of members there. It was a really small, core group of guys that helped convince other riders to experiment with the wheel size as well. It just grew organically from there.
Who were the first adopters? A few of my framebuilding customers got on board right away. But, there were a lot of end-users converting 26-inch-wheeled bikes. You know, that really surprised me. As a former framebuilder and bike
designer, the idea of converting bikes had never even occurred to me. I just assumed guys would build bikes from scratch, starting with a clean sheet of paper. But, it turns out that converting existing 26-inch-wheeled bikes was probably a big part of why 650B caught on so fast.
Can you relate some stories about your attempts to get the likes of Specialized, Giant and Trek on board?I just started calling the few contacts I had a bigger companies. I didn't know anyone at Specialized or Giant, but I did know people at smaller companies like Cannondale, Jamis, KHS and Santa Cruz. Oh, and because of my time at Bontrager, I knew a couple people at Trek too. Most of them had a set of my wheels about five years ago, maybe more. But product development takes a long time, and most of them took a “wait and see” approach. Jamis and KHS got on board early and pretty much ran with it from the start. The bigger companies, like Trek and Cannondale, were very tight lipped about it and beyond confirming that they received the wheels and tires, they never did give me any indication that they were (or weren't) working on 650B bikes. I guess that's just the way big companies have to operate. I don’t think the guys at Santa Cruz took it very seriously at the time either - of course, this is also around the same time Rob said: “We will never produce a 29er.” Probably the funniest thing was seeing my wheels on a Santa Cruz pit bike at Sea Otter. I think it had ape-hanger handlebars and a sissy bar on it. I figured that was their way of telling me that 650B wasn't going to happen. Thankfully, Santa Cruz changed their mind.
The 29er almost killed 650B. For a while, it looked like all your efforts would be in vain. What brought the mid-sized wheel back?The fact that 29ers had become mainstream may have caused consumers and companies to start looking for something new to buy and sell. I also think there were probably a lot of people who bought into the 29er concept early on, but once the honeymoon was over and a mid-sized option became available, they may have realized that 29-inch wheels might be too much of a good thing. I also firmly believe that the more time people spent riding them, the real world performance of 650B wheels was simply too good to ignore. The lull we saw in 650B a couple years ago was probably exact moment big companies really started working on 650B bikes full time. As you know, it can take a couple years to get things from the drawing board to the showroom floor.
KHS was one of the first mainstream brands to run with 650B. TheSixfifty 606 hardtail (top) dates back to 2009. Intense was the first major
name in gravity to build a production 27.5-inch DH racer - the 951 EVO.
Tom Ritchey's new P 650B is a reminder to all the sport's pioneers of
his outspoken belief in 650B back in the late '70s.
Tell us about the highest and lowest moments of your one-man 650B revolution.
At Interbike in 2007 someone declared it: “The Year of the 29er.” I had only had tires in hand for a few months, and it was a real gut-check for me. I wondered if I had made a mistake. I should say that I have had doubts that 650B would ever be a commercial success, but I have never once doubted validity of the concept. Orders kept coming in, we were growing and I was convinced it would succeed ultimately. A few years ago I rode a trail I had never been on before and I saw some fresh Neo-Moto tracks in the damp soil at the trail head. That was a really cool feeling - to see evidence of my product being used in the field. But, probably some of the highest moments have come in just the last year or so. Seeing most of the major brands produce a 650B bike is really great for me. The idea that my concept has had such a big impact on the mainstream industry is really gratifying!
Have you profited financially from any of this?We’ve done OK, but I knew from day one that if 650B was going to be successful, it was going to have to gain mainstream acceptance and grow beyond my control. That also meant that it was going to be very difficult for me to compete against the biggest brands. This is starting to play out, now that most of the major brands have a 650B / 27.5-inch product line. However, I felt that being the guy to innovate the wheel size for MTB use would also open other doors for me. My brand is growing (up 30% over last year) and I think the credibility that comes with the success of 650B will allow me to innovate in other areas. I have a lot of other product ideas that I am working on and want to bring to market soon. I don’t want to hang my entire career on 650B.
Now that the big players are busy capitalizing on 650B, has any notable executive or product designer contacted you and expressed sincere thanks?No. Not yet. I doubt that would ever happen today. In fact, I knew that if 650B was to become widely accepted, the big players would start lining up to take credit for it themselves. You can see that is happening now - sort of a miniature version of the “who invented the mountain bike” argument. My guess is that half the product managers out there don’t even know who I am. They just know that all their competition is doing a 650B bike and that they need to do it too.
Are there any individuals out there who you are thankful to?There are more than a few people and companies that made this whole thing possible, and I am very thankful for their support. Grant Petersen of Rivendell introduced me to 650B in 2004, Peter Gilbert at Cane Creek made me the first set of 650B mountain bike wheels, Tim Fry at MRP made me a handful of White Bros. suspension forks, and Panaracer agreed to make some awesome tires for me in very small quantities. I also got a lot of financial support from end users who bought my products. And probably the most meaningful to me, was the moral support I got from my industry peers. Even though they weren't in a position to make bikes a few years ago, guys like Chris Cocalis, Dave Turner, Noel Buckley and Sherwood Gibson all understood how much potential this concept had from day one. Seeing them all produce bikes today based on my concept is really cool!
Pacenti was clear when he first began to push the mid-sized wheel concept that its ultimate application would be for long-travel AM/trailbikes, like the 150-millimeter-travel Santa Cruz Bronson. The need for light wheels. lots of rubber and predictable handling is the motivating factor. - Gary Perkin Photo
Ignoring the present three standards, If you could begin with a clean piece of paper and design the perfect mountain bike wheel, then push a button that would adjust and convert every mountain bike to that format, what would it be?I don’t know. I haven’t really thought about it like that before, but I have thought that if the industry ever got together to really sort this out and decided once and for all what size would work best as a “standard” MTB wheel, I would support the effort. My guess is that we’d end up with something very close to 650B, maybe a little bigger, perhaps 700D or 650A, or some completely new standard. But once you get much bigger than a 595-millimeter bead-seat diameter, you start running into other design problems. Right now 650B wheels seem to strike the best balance between the competing design constraints. As geometry, components and riding styles evolve, wheel sizes may evolve too. For all practical purposes, I think 29ers are about as big as we can go. And I doubt very much that the industry will ever go smaller than 650B in the future.
If you could do it all over, is there anything you might do differently?If I had it to do again, I would definitely focus a bit more on marketing my products. Design comes easily to me, but sales and marketing is a real challenge. I might spend a little more time and energy on my own products and brand, rather than convincing other brands to jump in, but then again, if those brands didn't get involved, maybe 650B would not have taken off the way it has today? In general, I think things are working out pretty much exactly how I envisioned they would.
See what Kirk Pacenti is up to now.
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Member since Mar 23, 2011
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When supermarket bikes are rolling out the stores with 650b wheels, only then can you say 26" is dead.
tyres will make more difference, go measure the final diameter of some wheels with different tyres
its marketing hype thats all
27.5" ISO 584mm
25mm diameter difference on rim.
Dirt magazine seem convinced, stating recently 0.5 to 1 second advantage per minute downhill versus 26. To most of us that probably makes little or no odds. I'd like to see some extensive testing, from say, pinkbike! There's an idea!
It just seems so odd it has taken this long to find out, almost as if they've discovered a new way to shift bikes, now that they've run out of ideas for frame design, aesthetically and practically, there was no where left to go, except wheel size change. IMO.
I currently have a 29'er (Stumpjumper Evo) and spent 25+ years on 26" wheels (and 20" BMX)
would really like to try a 650 bike, as it makes sense to me, really when I think about the balance between 26" and 29'er sizes
great interview PB, can we have more of these types of interviews please
anyway, I'll go out and ride soon I promise - just as soon as ive finished work
I don't need to check out 650b wheels because i'm happy with my 26" wheels .
Can I bring your attention to your assertion that you often bring up that even if everyone on PB and MTBR etc etc, it would only account for 2% of the world sales of MTBs.
Firstly, I do not doubt your figures given your apparent connections to industry journalists, frame designers and brand owners, however there is in your assertion some hugely erroneous logic; namely that anyone who does not express a preference for a 26 inch wheeled frame is, by default, a staunch believer in the wholly superior 650B or 29er wheelsize over a 26 inch one. That is just an utterly ridiculous statement I am afraid. I challenge you to make a PB or MTBR or any other MTB user forum poll and offer the following as a question and options:
1) When I bought my first MTB I chose base primarily on which of the following criteria:
bull
f*cking
shit
this is coming from a guy who rides 20",26", an 29" an might even try a 650 in a few years when my FR/DH bike needs replacing
will we ever see a 650 DJ bike? not f*cking likely, an i cant see 4Xers changing to 650 but 4X is dead riiiiiigghhht....
and
there will always be young and short people for whom a 29 or 650 wheel would just be impracticle what ever style they ride
26 is dead? LOL
why should i buy a new head set and stem if i wanna change my forks? and if i break a shifter why should i have to replace the whole gear set?
FK the industry
For example obvious reasons:
You rarely see larger wheels at Whistler BP.
You rarely see larger wheels on Shore gnar type terrain.
But this market is minuscule on a global scale, manufactures are simply supplying to the masses where the money is. No harm in that.
It's all new and exciting, but don't worry 26 is here to stay and will probably come back stronger once the hype settles. Now go ride your bike.
It was mentioned in the article, but to repeat... CONVERT YOUR 26er. A large amount of bikes already out there will fit the 650B wheels and so will a lot of forks. For that matter, just buy a new fork if your existing one doesn't fit. Its not going to alter the frame angles or toptube lengths or anything and the difference in BB height is minor and most will never notice beyond they're now clearing stuff they used to whack pedals on. My first 650B was a conversion, as was most every brand honcho/employee for every company that was an early adopter.
Comparing wheel size to steerer diameter is about as legitimate as comparing stick shift to fuel injection.
It comes down to preference. Obviously you can feel a difference between wheel sizes or you wouldn't so adamant that progress has been made. More obviously, if there's a difference so fundamental as wheel size, you can expect people will have preferences for legitimate reasons.
You would look less like a fool to consider wheel size choice to be similar to choosing certain head angles, BB heights, stem length, travel, tire width, tire pressure, grip diameter, bar width, air-vs-coil - the list goes on.
You think a person that puts offset bushings to tweak geometry can't feel both the positives and negatives of a wheel size change? Who are you to say if the positives outweigh the negatives for their style?
Wheel size fundamentally effects bike handling. If you don't feel it, maybe you don't handle a bike the same way others do. Do you like feet up scrub drifting? Then maybe big wheels won't suit you as much. Do you care to go 0.5s faster per minute? Then maybe they will. To paint everyone with the same brush is juvenile and insulting. Not everyone rides where and how you do.
Your attitude is clearly that someone who prefers the handling of a 26er is a whining internet warrior. It's probably quite hard for you to believe that some people who can ride bikes a whole lot better than you, or not, have tried both and *gasp* don't agree with your sentiments on bigger wheels.
Next you'll be telling me I'm a loser for putting an angleset on my brand new 26" steel hardtail that I bought 2 weeks ago. It sure as hell aint dead.
Trying to put different wheel-sizes into frames not designed for them is like trying to stuff 10lbs of shit in a 5lb bag, the result is going to be a stinky mess. D8, why don't all brands offer 650 dropout tabs? Why did 26 fork arch clearances drop? Greedy.
26 definitely is not going away, but there will probably be significantly less selection of tires and rims because of the emergence of 650b, which is a too bad.
Speaking of dipshits, Satanslittlehelper, if you think that every bike company puts out new & "IMPROVED" models every year, you are lost. The money mongers that live here (in this industry) continuously look for ways they can change & reinvent the wheel, (pun intended, I guess). It never needs reinventing. There are few problems that need addressing with modern bicycles that haven't been solved one way or another. It's just a f*cking bicycle for f*ck sakes. You still see derailleurs everywhere because they're profitable & they afford companies the ability to conjure up more & more silly contraptions to squash a shock for idiots like you to wet your shorts over. Things continue to exist in many industries that make no sense in any way except for profitability. Bigger wheels have one petty advantage to offset all the disadvantages. The general public will never know the difference until they go to buy a new part & can't get what they should be able to because dickbags like this one wanted to change shit for a $. Most riders who know what's going on, appear to be pissed about it.
As long as I can keep my 24's rollin' I'm fine.
My real world testing has show one benefit and many disadvantages. That is my opinion for my riding. Time to stop being a know it all and admit not everyone shares your opinion after giving it a solid try.
When the race results come at the World Cup DH races, World Championships, and ews overall. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it hasn't yet.
*goes to negprop without bothering to read*
The MAJOR problem is the fact that by changing ONE element (wheel size) we end up with a huge amount of redundant parts (frames! forks! suspension! etc)
Everyone can except technological advances, however this is too expensive for the benefits that it offers.
PS yes I have ridden a 27,5" and it worked well (better in certain conditions than the 26) but not SO well that I said WOW f*ck me I'm gonna change my whole set up, buy a new bike etc
When bars reached 800mm did you quit the sport or buy a shorter bar? Are you a wide bar denier despite clear advantages due to the physics of leverage? Or do you just have a preference based on your riding style.
Try it. People might actually respect you for it. How many times do we have to say 650B is fine to exist and suits some people better than 26 before you stop labeling us as 'deniers'. Yes, you are the fool ignoring the details.
@Kramster... Been tried, doesn't work. People who whine on forums have no effect on the industry (bicycles, cameras, cars, mcdonalds food, etc) as they're people who typically have too much time on their hands. I have time because I work from home but the majority of folks do not and the ones actually spending money in bike stores on new bikes each year at best read reviews but never post comments/reviews themselves. They do their reviewing with their wallets. And the wallet reviews were already leading to diminishing sales of 26ers, especially DH bikes. Its a tiny market segment. DJ/Slope/DS/4X/Trials/FR/DH combined are a tiny portion of most brands sales each year and brands are in business to make money, not lose it just because a small group of people only want to ride those diciplines. There are small niche brands that only cater to them already and they'll do fine but when they also start trying out alternative wheel sizes... its because either they as owner-riders want to have them, or its because their ACTUAL customers (the ones actually spending money, not the catalog browsers who simply talk about owning something) are demanding it.
The big problem I have with you is that you like to use the words denier and whiner when referring to anyone that doesn't share your opinion. I also work from home, hence available time. If you're insinuating I don't ride much and don't buy much, then you're pointing the finger in the wrong direction. And if you think I'm alone, you're also quite wrong.
Chromag still sells more 26 than any other size. And let us not forget that Commencal makes all 3 wheelsizes in a single class of bike and the most popular choice for the employees is the 26 and the favorite of the Pinkbike testers was the 26.
There will be a market for something that the majority of people do not want, not because they are fools, but because they are very particular about the handling of their bike and they've made a choice with eyes wide open. Maybe you should try opening yours and maybe you'll accept there are 2 legitimate sides to this argument.
If you think all these current sales results are based 100% on performance and handling without marketing influence you are a bigger fool than you appear. Some people, even though they are the vast minority, are selling 650's to go back to 26. Is there some nasty name you want to call them?
Chromag is one of those niche brands I referred to that cater to the gravity diciplines. But their entire annual sales are less than some large bicycle stores do let alone many other bike brands. As to people making choices with eyes wide open... really? That's what you think? You think all the anti-other size arguers on here have actually spent time on things other than 26ers (or 24s for that matter) ? For a format that has gone to virtually no bike models to dozens of models in 5 years, I'd be surprised if more than a few thousand PB members actually have saddle time on a 650B.
"its because their ACTUAL customers are demanding it."
I am a language teacher; it's my job to deconstruct language and enable others to then reconstruct it. I understand the nature of language in a way you understand the bike industry, and your repeated use of the word "demand" is causing issues here I suspect.
There are two branches of demand: creation and fulfillment. Your position assumes that the "demand" seen in bike shops across the (well, not Japan yet, 27.5 are rare as rocking horse sh%t and only now appearing in shops) world is one of fulfillment; queues of customers who have been knocking on the doors of the bike shops for years demanding a new wheel size that the MTB big players have been refusing to supply until now.
Others here are coming at it from the other side; seeing the demand as creation by the industry, which, as you say rightly, is part of what being in business is about. I am in business and I do the same with my advertising.
When you suggest that anyone seeing it as creation is deluded, an ostrich etc etc, you are denying what has been part of business for years, demand creation. It exists deeeight, whether you like it or not. Sure, keep your head in the sand if you want and deny it all you want, however it exists, only a fool denies it, and only a fool who does not understand business. Equally, as you say, someone who suggests the rise of 650B is purely an industry conspiracy is the victim of an overly active imagination in my opinion. Learn a little humility Sir, your obviously relevant opinions here would count for so much more if you were to.
As is often pointed out, exceptional bike handlers notwithstanding, its not the easiest thing to jump a 29er, and there are geometry limitations to really long travel with them, whereas 650Bs are very flickable shall we say (honestly, comparing identical brand/model tires and rims, the weight difference of 26 to 650B is at best a hundred grams per wheel even with slightly longer spokes) enough so that Logan Binggeli has backflipped his KHS DH 650B consecutive years at Redbull Rampage and Stevie Smith won the crankworx big air competition on a Devinci 650B last summer.
Just the other day, overheard at the LBS: "I was in real estate and investment banking, but moved into the bike industry so I could make some real money..." Get a clue.
@ minty1: quite a few people were running 650b wheels in frames and forks (any Fox) that would fit them about 5+ years ago, when there weren't any 650b bikes. How is that not consumer driven? Have you ridden one?
In a sport where the difference between first place and fifth place often comes down to a few seconds (such as DH racing), 1 second per minute advantage adds up after four minutes of racing to several spots better placing.
Honestly, I found this next line genuinely surprising since it doesn't sit with the experience of some local LBS owners I know over here. "Now RMB went that way because the 26ers had stopped selling essentially". Maybe Japan is "lagging behind" yet 26ers haven't been stagnating and are still selling very well over here if the LBS owners I went riding with as recently as last Wednesday are being honest with me.
I am in no way accusing you of not telling the truth, however could you see how this would be surprising to people over here?
Yes, it is only a small cohort, yet in Japan we have been unable to read about 650B except in overseas publications until the autumn editions of the print mags last year here. My local LBS owner told me only a couple of months or so ago that he though that "26ers were not going away anytime soon", however if things progress as they seem to be, he may not have the choice to sell any in the mid term future if the big players stop making them. Anyways, as ever, thanks for your comments Sir and have a good weekend.
I'm totally plagiarising, but you sir are a "wheel size evangelist".
The 650b does give a racer an added one second every minute in a race, but if a disadvantage in agility compared to a 26" caused a racer even one crash during the EWS series, the bigger wheel wouldn't be worth it.
Nico Voulliouz won an EWS on a 650b by just a slim margin and he was probably correct when he have his bigger wheel the credit for the win.
Bur shortly after that win, Nico was injured in a crash and was out for the rest of the season. We don't know if the wheel size was a factor, but it is a perspective to consider and that could be part of why some DH racers might hesitate to jump over to 650b.
www.canadiancyclist.com/races12/Supplier_Q3_2012.pdf
These are the sales figures for 2011 to 2012.
Take a look and educate yourself people.
Some interesting point to note is that sales of 29ers doubled in a one year period (193% growth), whilst simultaneously 26 inch MTB bikes (including full sus, front sus and rigid) sales fell by between 20 and 50% depending on the period you choose.
Simple conclusions:
a) 29ers could be said to have been eroding 26 inch sales recently for Canadian bike makers. AKA Consumers are buying many more 29ers over 26ers.
b) The 26 inch market is in decline at point of sale regardless of what we and our close mates think.
c) There would appear to be a logical choice for the companies between either trying to stave off falling sales of 26 inch, or promote an alternative,
d) It makes business sense to put marketing efforts (demand creation) into 650B then given all this.
It is a shame that we will all have to eat a little humble pie and say, D8, you speak the truth about sales of 26ers.
There, PROTOUR, fixed that for you.
In 2012 we saw 650B achieve dominance in XC racing, last year we saw it at the high end trail bike end (that Santa Cruz's largest dealers suddenly found themselves stuck with 26er models when after the release of the Bronson all their on-the-fence customers suddenlly want to order one was pretty damn telling as to where folks with money actually were spending it). This year we have Giant leading the leap as it were converting virtually every 26er model other than the DH rigs and lowest entry model hardtails to 650B, even switching away from 29ers on some models... well... you can argue till your blue in the face that 26ers are superior in whatever situation for whatever reason, but they're not superior when it comes to actual sales and that's what matters to bicycle brands. They're rushing to meet the demands of customers who apparently were ACTUALLY waiting for a middle-step size between 26er and 29er. This year's sales numbers will be interesting to say the least. Because if people with 4k to spend on a full suspension boutique trail bike in 650B than in 26", then the odds favour the same result with the people looking to spend $700 for a big brand hardtail.
cheers
"even though decline in 26 sales is evident, there is also a decline in available 26 models. Manufactures replaced 26 with 650 and 29 models, no shit you sell less 26."
The data I referenced is for sales for 2012 as compared to 2011. If your assertion were correct, we should be able to look at the bike product range for companies in 2012 and see.....
a) 650B models and
b) exclusive 29er versions of products that used to be 26er until 2011 and that then were not offered as 26ers in 2012.
The product catalogs I looked at don't agree with what you are saying.
What D8 has been saying, and that the data bears true, is that, at the point of sale, 29ers were more popular than 26ers over the past 5 years or so and that the CEOs and Directors of those bike companies have a duty of care to their employees to ensure that sales, and therefore jobs, can be maintained.
-someone once said
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10614027
now lets go ride!
Ride your own way.
Unless your trying to compete (at any level) isn't the main priority of any rider to have fun?
Have fun on 29'ers? Ride a 29'er.
Have fun on a 650'er? Ride a 650.
Have fun on a 26'er? Ride a 26'er.
Have fun on a scoot'er - go to hell, your an abomination. A bastard child caught between the cycling and skating world. No one likes you.
(great article though, I enjoy reading about the efforts people go to in the industry.)
If the masses keep demanding 26 inch then businesses would be silly to stop making it. Only reason I could assume the industry is jumping on the 27.5 wagon is because more people want it.
What other reason would they have for making more 27.5? (I assume) 26'ers require less materials to make, there for cheaper to make, whereas 27.5/29'ers would require new tooling/more material.
We rode 26" forever yet now they are considered useless? I don't get it. I will be riding a 27.5" bike this year, but would happily ride a 26" bike (again).
All I have are 26" bikes, but my next AM rig will probably have 27.5" wheels. Pedaling up is a pain, might as well make it easier, right?.. the DH bike will still have 26" though for quick turns, low CG and lots of room for squish...
It has to be said that I am not taking sides, just thinking out loud.
for me it is quite simple a.riding style + b.terrain + c.wheel size = fun X 100. abc the equation with whatever one wants. if it doesn't =funX100 then one needs another outlet.
When you say "you guys" are trying to kill it, you are actually referring to cunsumers, not the industry. I know it might feel like a industry-wide conspiracy against your interests, but it's not. Not every company is eliminating 26, just the ones who are willing to take the risk because that is what they think consumers will want.
I for one would like to personally thank Kirk Pacenti for his willingness to try something new and his perseverance to make it stick. Cool that Grant Peterson is also connected to the idea. I haven't bought a 650 yet, but whenever I test one I'm impressed and look forward to getting one some day. As far as maneuverability and agility is concerned, it doesn't feel much different than 26, just a bit faster with improved traction and a little smoother ride.
Funny that little companies like Haro and Jamis knew right away that 650b was a hit, while big companies like Specialized said it was unnecessary and are now eating their words.
Only part of the interview i didn't like was the discussion about another tire size between 26 and 29, that would me redundant. If anything, try a 36" or something.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYt6IqaHk_Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I'm surprised that bigger wheel sizes haven't been tried with road bikes, imagine how much faster a 900c would be than a 700c. Maybe just for taller guys, but it would haul ass and be fun I think
Risking and trying something new is not the same as releasing a completely new lineup ONLY in 650b, while not having an alternative to it in 26in form.
Good way of trying something new -> Yeti, which has the same platform in different sizes (SB66, SB75, SB95)
Bad way of trying something new -> Santacruz and Kona offering a mid travel platform only in 650b.
then what happens next? take a guess. they have the ability to do it again. and again and again... and make money.
I think there will still be high end 26 parts available as long as there are mtb's, just not as much selection.
One bad thing about all the sizes is that it probably makes tire companies less likely to make mud spike tires, because it is less profitable to make a niche product in different sizes because of the increase in manufacturing costs.
www.liteville.de/t/25_29.html
I don't have a dog in the fight, 650b is coming. I'm riding 26 & 29 now. IF I get an opportunity, suppose I'll try 650b, but I'm not feeling like my riding or my riding experience is suffering from wheel size.
But saying they'll come back to all of them (sizes) is something I am skeptical about. We see more and more rims or tyre appearing in size 650b and 29" but no 26". Remember about straight steerer tubes on fork? Right? They would still fit in a modern frame with a specific headset. But the RS Pike for instance only exists with a tapered steerer and it surely is not the only one. Fox 831 for instance, surely plenty others as well.
WTF is this even an argument ????
"The fact that 29ers had become mainstream may have caused consumers and companies to start looking for something new to buy and sell"
- it all about finding a new gimmick to sell to people who would never actually going to ride their new 10,000$ plastic framed 0x12 drive train toys with the latest "right" wheel size or what ever the current gimmick is right now.
A cool article otherwise. Lots of good questions RC
It's not any different than when you where a kid and moved up in tire size as you grew, the problem is some people just don't seem to understand common sense and try to make it sounds like its better.
But I am really pissed about what the bike industry is doing. OK, maybe not all manufactures but in general. Maybe 26ers are not dead yet, maybe they won't extinct... But when I am looking on my favourite kind of bikes of some of the biggest brands I do not see 26ers anymore.
I do not believe that this is because people are more interested in 650B. Some of the brands have switched from 26" to 650B in one year... From no 650B to no 26" WTF? How they were able to determine if noone is interested in 26ers anymore?
I would really like to try the middle standard, but I do not want to be forced to change my bike every time bunch of people decide they know better.
I like my old bike, but it is freaking hard to get enduro/FR fork with 1,125" steerer. Decent 9 speed drivetrain is more expensive then it was before industry introduced 10s. Old standards are slowly dying because industry do not want to support them anymore.
And don't tell me that 650b is significantly better. Even if this is true, I cannot really tell because there are thousand other things that have impact oh how a bike performs.
P.S. Sorry for my English. I freaking cannot learn this language even though I have to use it everyday at work.
The fact that 29ers had become mainstream may have caused consumers and companies to start looking for something new to buy and sell. I also think there were probably a lot of people who bought into the 29er concept early on, but once the honeymoon was over and a mid-sized option became available, they may have realized that 29-inch wheels might be too much of a good thing. I also firmly believe that the more time people spent riding them, the real world performance of 650B wheels was simply too good to ignore. The lull we saw in 650B a couple years ago was probably exact moment big companies really started working on 650B bikes full time. As you know, it can take a couple years to get things from the drawing board to the showroom floor.
Be careful when you choose what to buy, look at more important things like head angle, wheelbase, overall bike geometry, these are the import ants choices not wheel size.
If 26 "dies" we all go slower in the tech. This is a bad thing. I have no issue with larger wheels. I have a HUUUUUUUGGGEEEEEEE issue with indutry types spouting all this bulls**t about 650b being .5s faster per minute. ON WHAT TRACK? Its sure as hell not every track. When 26 dies ALL my trails will either be ridden slower or made wider. I will be very angry. Just my opinion like...
I've rode 26" wheels on aggressive all mountain trails for years in the PNW, I now have a new 650 covert that is absolutely amazing. Whats not to like about it?
650b is not equal to 27.5, it is smaller. They should have come up with a new mtb size that wouldn't displace 26"... like a 28". Now that 650b is becoming mainstream, 26" is going to disappear.
Bike Magazine had a poll about why everyone is wanting 650b. I think the media has blown this thing up bigger than ever. I don't have friends acting the way they did when they got a good 29er. "Dude!! Buy a 29er. They're awesome". I know one person out of 20 or so people I ride with that have a 650b. He has a Bronson, but rides his 26" Nomad more, because in his words,"It's just a bit more fun. For what ever reason, I just like it more". I rode his bike and it felt a bit bigger and rode fine, but then rode his Nomad and honestly, it was more fun. Same wheels (Ringle) and brand and size tires but in 26 and 650b. The factory Santa Cruz Enduro racer runs a 26" Nomad. Just sayin.
Still, the choice for 26" is disappearing with manufactures commiting to 650b, I don't think it's because of the consumer demand, but in a mentality. Giant didn't have 3 sizes of everything last year and have racks of unwanted 26er's. To pull the plug on every 26er, that's disturbing. I love my 26er. It rolls over stuff just fine. I can whip it through the tightest singletrack, which is all I really ride. Just hope it's not the end. Truthfully, saving 1 second on my trail rides isn't worth the $2000+ it would cost me to switch.
Bottom line: 29er for ""enduro"" and XC, 26er or 27.5er for anything involving jumps.
Good 29" are way, way, faster than 26" for Enduro. Sure the fastest guys are still the fastest regardless but you put the right guy on a 29" and he will be quicker than he was on 26"/650bs. If you don't see that you haven't ridden a good one or you suck. It isn't even close.
I'm very happy with my 650b front wheel (using your Pacenti DL31 rim) and I like having options.
Sincerely thank you.
What are your thoughts about the future of 29-inch, 26-inch and the new 650B wheel sizes? - Twenty-nine -inch wheels will supplant 26-inch wheel bikes by 2017. In ten years, all mountain bikes sold from $1000 to $1500 and above will have 29-inch wheels. There will be holdouts, of course, and 26-inch wheel bikes will be sold at places like Costco and K-Mart, but the 29er will take the place of the 26-inch bike as far as the average mountain bike goes. - Chris Sugai
30 years ago MTB was a niche sport, and one with a limited market. Bikes were of a muchness, with a few exceptions, and only a handful of riders were spending a lot of money. The main companies at the time, mindful of that market, created and developed products for their end users and anybody who tried to rock the boat with useless 'innovations' was quickly shut down or forced to rethink their product.
20 years ago things were a little different. High end DH and XC bikes were becoming more popular and the big manufacturers found that there was an increasing demand for high end bikes. In the beginning, spending over a grand on your bike was not only unheard of, it was practically impossible, nothing cost that much. Giant and Specialized started making weird looking full sussers and more and more of us were buying them, and it attracted more and more people to the sport. the image of a rider in full armour hammering down a mountain on a 1k+ full susser was an attractive one, then the likes of Bender and Napalm turned up with their enormous 12" travel huckers and it all went mad for a bit. You were nobody of you didn’t have a set of super monster Ts or Shivers on your oversized DH bike. It was a great time, and the NWD videos opened the market up further. Suddenly spending 2 or 3 grand on your bike was not only possible, it was pretty much demanded.
And that’s the problem and the challenge we're facing. Do we really want something just because it’s new? Giant seems to think so. So does Specialized, among a few others. Before they wouldn’t have dared upset their target buyers, but now we're no longer the focus of their advertising. They no longer have to cater to our needs, they can create a wholly false need and there will be a demand for it simply because it’s NEW! and we will look like a bunch of reactionaries because we're not buying into the hype. They’re trying to make us feel that we're being left behind if we don’t buy their NEW! bikes, and that the sport will progress without us.
All we can do is refuse to play and hope that this strategy fails in the long term. All the arguments in favour of 650b are bogus mumbo jumbo about how the bike 'feels' more stable and it 'responds' better. It’s all crap. There is no real benefit to bigger wheels to you and I, they’re only of benefit to the people who are trying to sell you them. So don’t buy them.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/8577720
www.vitalmtb.com/photos/member/KHS-DH650B,4234/KHS-DH650B,41450/quintonspaulding,1140
And I really hope I'll be like "WOW omagad amazing! I absolutely need one NOW."
Like discbrake, suspensions, adjustable seatpost...
As others have said, thanks for nothing kirk.
Forward thinkers are always meet with the screams of the closed minded. i dont mind trying new wheel sizes or sharing drinking fountains. The bike industry will move forward with or without you. Learn to deal.
and as for half a second faster over a mile, big deal, 1 min faster over a mile and yeah I'd go for bigger wheels tomorrow,
and as for all the after market manufacturers supposedly dropping 26" components, does anybody realy think they'd throw all there expensive tooling away, no chance, they could get it all back out of the stores and be producing 26" forks etc within 24 hrs
I have, and I think that 650b is a terrible idea. Clearly the worst combination of the other two sizes (26 & 29).
Compared to a 26, it is slower to initiate a turn, maaaaybe offers better bump absorption (who cares with modern forks, anyway), duller feeling overall, less manageable in the air.
Compared to a 29, no comparison there really, the 29er leaves it behind all the time.
Although, it seems every other person is very eager to buy a new 650b bike, as they feel convinced that they will have an advantage over others. So, I can't really blame the bike industry, it seems they have won this one!
Hell you can figure out warranty stats pretty easy in the real world from product recalls... when a company recalls a batch of tens of thousands of parts after the CPSC for example tracks the failure of FOUR of them...
And how on earth is it possible not to know exactly how many bikes you've owned? They are bikes, not pieces of underwear...
So this guy 'invents' 27.5 to address the shortcomings of 29" for long travel dual suspension applications and in doing so makes something more like a 26" wheeled bike.... sounds to me like they should have just stuck with 26" in the first place! I've had a go on a few of these big wheel bikes... and they suck IMO, nowhere near as fun or fast as a 26" on any nice technical trails.
Maybe they have a use on all these nice new 1.5m wide tarmac-smooth "flow trails" everyone wants to catch a gondola ride to the top of nowadays... but then you're better off with a bmx really!
- U-brakes also DID actually work, but the problem was where they were used. Instead of putting them on the seatstays like cantis, they ended up on the chainstays on most bikes where they collected mud and then ceased to work. They were put there
because the increased leverage led to flexing the stays apart, and rather than going to larger diameter seat stays or a shorter stay
configuration or something with better reinforcement (like GT's triple triangle design, or Rocky Mountain's use of monostay/wishbone seatstays) they just moved them down to the chainstays which were typically larger diameter/stiffer already. So the problem wasn't the brakes just frame designers who were lazy.
- Elevated chainstays we can actually owe to RC for their origin and popularity. As a means to solve a problem (mud clogging around the BB shell / drivetrain) they work well. They also eliminate chainslap on the chainstays and chainsuck also. But if not properly designed you end up with frame flex in a place you don't want it. They're still good today if you want to do a belt driven
bike since you don't have to split the rear end apart to fit the belt like you do traditional double-diamond hardtail frames.
Bikes need to evolve. It did it with 29er's and they now have there place. Competition XC, Long Distance biking, and trail. 27.5 you will see trail, freeride, enduro. 26" will be low end MTB, comfort, city, Downhill, dirt jump, freeride, trail. It's all preference.
If you like 26" wheel that what you like, that wheel size will always be around.
PLUS, I now have a huge supply of new or nearly new 26er parts to choose from as buddy climbs onboard the 27'5 or 29 bandwagon. Same goes for drivelines, I havent tried 1x11 yet but suspect its balls out excellent. In the mean time i scoop up the 10 spd cast aways cheap.
BONUS !
This is why both 29ers and 650B have become the new trends. Bike companies need something new to sell, and there'll always be people willing to buy the "next great thing".
Completely unnecessary for the sport, in my opinion.
Different wheel sizes is about selling more bikes NOT about making better bikes.
I have never had an issue with 26 inch wheels. If it aint broke......................
if you think that the multiple wheel size choices is a divisive attempt by the bike industry to further fragment bicycle standards to accelerate the which at which currently owned bikes become obsolete and hence increase new product churn and their profitability, then stick with the brands who stick with 26".
Otherwise jump on that bandwagon brother.
Also what the heck is 142 thru axle? and how is it better than my 3/8" bolt on axle? Anyone?
But in reality, nothing can or will ride just like your old bike. Not a 650B, 29er or even the exact same 26er. Everything changes: geometry, tubing, suspension, materials, injuries, capabilities and that's never-ending mistake of the whinger who cannot accept change. Hey killer, that doesn't mean you have to like change. Get it?
Please, let's stop bitching about this -it aint gonna change now!!
Shirley that's a matter of opinion?
My bike is outstanding! And it maneuvers all over da place...
Honestly; I do not need another bike similar to this one, regardless of the wheel size! Its the greatest of bikes; what would I replace it with?
Well f*ck you guy. Take your stupid f*cking idiot idea & jump off a cliff with it. A bender sized cliff, to flat.
I'm stumped.
Fatbikes, on the other hand…
Honestly, did you have to look up Miles Dyson? I thought I had a wealth of useless movie knowledge in my head, but that's next level shit.
Perhaps they won't cause the apocalypse, but I do have the strong suspicion they will mean the end of technical singletrack. Which is essentially the same thing....
Seriously man, I can (and do) ride most modern trails on a cyclocross bike. Not in any way saying that I am super skillfull on a bike or anything. More that most modern trails (Of the wide/surfaced/bermy type) are a bit lame. Fun. But not exactly challenging, hence the cx bike to put a bit of the challenge back in. Must say I do avoid the bigger jumps when on the cx bike. Does that mean I ride a 29er?
I don't think that is the case RE: summing down trails…maybe the opposite. I think a slightly larger wheel works better in gnar / rocks / roots - doesn't get caught as much, but still agile enough to maneuver. For the groomed, smooth flow trails, with jumps, 26" is probably ideal…especially if you are getting airborne.
I prefer natural terrain as well.
No 650b for me...
Best thing to do when you come up on a horse, talk, say hello, make sure the horse see's your face, from as far back as you can. Ask if you need to stop. If the horse starts moving all over, stop and wait!! Keeping talking the whole time. They think your a monster and will eat them, talking lets them know that's not your plan. They WILL kick you if you get to close. Mine will want to race you... haha
I rode mountain bikes for 15 years before I met my wife, she had the horses. She ran me up a ski hill on my first horseback trail ride and I was hooked. What took me over 2 minutes to do on my bike took 40 seconds on a horse. I had my opinions about horses back when, didn't like them, but after being around them 10 years, it's the owner that dictates what happens. We work really hard on our horses to keep them safe for us and other people. Our horses were a bit sketchy of bikes so I fixed it. Have a shared trail around us and even bikes coming from behind doesn't phase them. Drives me crazy when I'm coming up to horses from the front and the rider starts yelling at me, but I do what I need to keep the peace, I keep my mouth shut. haha
WTB a Spec Pitch frame for cheap. That's the real shit!! Anyone?
29= xc
27.5 will have both traits but not excell in either if you know what i mean.
I wonder
Just try, and ride whatever you want to.
Have you ever ridden one?
Maybe ask dad to up the allowance and you can get a new bike this year.
And a wheelsize used by nobody except GT Bicycles that didn't exist anywhere before... and was never used for but THREE models of one year, and they were respectively a tandem, a hybrid and a cyclocross bike essentially... doesn't enter into the mtb world equation at all.
Fortunetly for suckers who bought those GTs who still own them, 650B is 1.5mm in radius SMALLER than 700D, so you can usually squeeze a 650B tire onto a 700D wheel. This is good as 700D tires have not been made in 20+ years.
You don't have to like what he's done, but $20 says you love to be in his shoes.