Industry Weighs in on the Latest Round of US Tariffs on Chinese Mountain Bike Imports

Aug 7, 2018 at 18:28
by Richard Cunningham  
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Pinkbike's henhouse was rattled last week after we picked up a recent news story from BikeEurope about the US government's latest proposal to levy a ten to 25-percent duty on over six thousand more Chinese imports, including bicycles and frames. Washington's latest escalation of this country's tit-for-tat trade war with the world's largest Walmart was reportedly in retaliation to Beijing's campaign to use any means (legal or otherwise) to acquire sensitive information from US corporate and military sources in exchange for domestic manufacturing. The new levy and expanded list of affected goods came on the heels of a 25-percent tariff on 50 billion dollars worth of exports that the US slapped on China for blowing off those negotiations last month. Total exports affected could total 200 billion USD annually.


Mountain Bikes Will be Affected

The US mountain bike industry, which relies heavily on Chinese imports, dodged the bullet in the first round of tariffs, suffering only collateral damage. Duties affected things like hubs, spokes, bearings, cable housings, inner tubes, and geared hubs. (eMTBs were included on that list as well.)

Mountain bikes, however, were spared from those first rounds, but if the latest proposal is ratified, complete mountain bikes and frames imported from China will face a similar fate. The news spurred a hailstorm in the comment section, but there were some salient questions and statements peppered in there that deserved to be addressed.
An overview of the factory where Bontrager hand builds wheels in Whitewater WI USA.
There are only a handful of significant-sized US bike makers. Trek is the only one that moves the needle as an exporter. This is their Whitewater assembly building in Wisconsin.

How much will the tariffs affect the cost of mountain bikes in the US? How will import duties affect US bicycle makers? Are tariffs on Chinese imports necessary to boost the bicycle business in the US? Are bike brands selfishly raising prices to cash in on tariff fever? What does Washington have to gain by imposing stiff tariffs on this country's largest trading partner? I'm paraphrasing, but those were the most valid concerns voiced in the Pinkbike popcorn gallery.


AJ Ariss the Product amp Marketing Manager for Reynolds Cycling Andrew Herrick former CEO of Crankbrothers and Intense Cycles Chris Cocalis President and Fouder of Pivot Cycles and Will Monrague Co-founder and President of Guerrilla Gravity.
(From left) AJ Ariss, Andrew Herrick, Chris Cocalis, and Will Montague.

Industry Insiders Weigh in

To shed some light on those questions, I reached out to some key players in the US bike industry. Understandably, some chose not to respond, so here's my shout-out to the brave souls who did.

AJ Ariss, the product and marketing manager for Reynolds Cycling weighs in from the perspective of a US carbon wheel manufacturer that also has factories in Taiwan. Chris Cocalis, founder and CEO of Pivot Cycles, imports frames from China and components from Taiwan, then assembles his bicycles in the USA. Will Montague, Guerrilla Gravity's co-founder and president, answers from the perspective of a US-based bicycle manufacturer that has been growing its range of aluminum-framed dual-suspension bikes for five years running. And, Andrew Herrick, who has a wealth of experience in both the component and bicycle side of the sport, including US and Asia-based manufacturing.


Are the proposed tariffs real or simply a threat?


AJ Ariss: They are certainly a “real threat.” President Trump has demonstrated that he is serious about being disruptive to trade with China. In the USA, over ten million bikes are imported annually from China. We do remain hopeful that, like many of his threats, this turns out to be more of a negotiation tactic that results in movement toward a compromise, without having to resort to punitive tariffs, which, if enforced, will likely lead to increased prices for consumers. We are a small industry, caught up in a political fight and that is certainly unfortunate.

Andrew Herrick: If you can predict what the US government is going to do, you could make a ton of money, probably even more than being a cycling editor. Nothing would shock me - although as soon as the administration figured out their soybean tariffs were really bad for US farmers, they didn't pull back the tariffs, but instead, offered the farmers subsidies. So, yes, it could actually happen and it could be devastating to bike companies and really crappy for our customers. If anyone in Canada wants to adopt me, my bags are packed...

Chris Cocalis: It’s a strong possibility and a real threat. It will affect US customers, but even more so, it may damage our ability to assemble here in the US and grow our US manufacturing/assembly operation (really, the opposite of the tariff's stated intention).

Will Montague: From our vantage point, it seems to be a mix of action and threats. The first round of tariffs has already gone into effect, so it's certainly not all a bluff. However, whether or not the latest round of threats is realized is yet to be seen, but we don't think that the full gamut of proposed tariffs will be implemented.

2018 Bicycle Exports to the USA: Ranked by Country

China ($874,947,166), Taiwan ($390,072,304), Cambodia ($24,044,413), and Indonesia ($11,314,776) Source

How will this affect the US mountain bike industry as a whole?


Andrew Herrick: As you and I have discussed many times when we've had our "coffee talks" and "drinking about it," we are in the luxury goods business. Even bikes that we may see as "entry-level" (at $1000, for example), a mountain bike is a luxury or special purchase for 99% of our customers. Furthermore, we are in the innovation business and, as consumers, we are hard-wired to expect innovation to be deflationary by its very nature.

With the current state of retail, not just in bikes, yes, it's going to hurt. Bike companies, distributors, and retailers are seeing eroding margins and they cannot raise prices. Again, consumers expect this year's technology and spec to be less expensive next year. If the price goes up, then the consumer understandably shies away. If the margins continue to get eroded, then companies will lose money and they also will shy away from buying inventory to service the market.

What we need is a healthy value chain and we don't have that now. I don't see how a 10 to 25-percent increase in cost is going to be good for anyone, especially now. I think that Pinkbike readers understand this very well. Bike riders love their bikes and the companies that make them. They want to see them succeed, and the same can be said for their favorite local retailer. It's tough times for them now - the worst time I can think of for rising costs.

Inside Guerrilla Gravity
Guerrilla Gravity's Trail Pistol. The Colorado bike maker does not rule out carbon, but believes that until better manufacturing methods are in place, aluminum is the viable solution for US mountain bike makers.
Guerrilla Gravity
Pre-assembling frames at Guerrilla Gravity. Their factory manufactures and assembles a modest range of steel and aluminum-framed bikes. The first round of tariffs on raw materials will affect them most.

Will Montague: The biggest concern we have about the tariffs, in relation to our company, is at more of a macro level: What happens if the tariffs trigger inflation for everyday household goods and thereby limit discretionary income for recreational items, like mountain bikes? Or even if this isn't realized, what's the systemic effect of shaken consumer confidence and the spending habits thereby affected? And could that drive changes in the real estate market, further compounding the economic severity?

Luckily, our customers are unlikely to see any price increases. Our costs aren't scheduled to be affected because of our in-house frame production and primarily Taiwan-sourced build kit components. From what we've read, the tariffs are aimed exclusively at China. We don't currently import any of our components from China.

Tariffs on Bicycles Imported from China: EU vs USA

EU = 48.5% (anti-dumping tariff) Source
USA = 11% (current), plus the proposed increases = 21% to 36%


What does a 10% or a 25% tariff translate to at the retail level say, for a $5000 bike?


Chris Cocalis: As it doesn’t affect all parts, and it doesn’t affect anything from Taiwan and several other countries, I estimate the effect [for a theoretical $5000 Pivot] could be an additional $300 to $750, plus sales tax on that.

Andrew Herrick: If everyone maintains their already diminished profit margins, and the tariff was only ten percent; that bike would retail at $5600 almost exactly. Then in most states, there is a ten-percent sales tax, so that's an additional $60 in tax. So, a $5,000 bike leaves the store at $650 more than it does now. That is outrageous for the rider and will drive more consumers to hold off their purchase for another year or by a used bike on the ever-growing secondary market. If you follow that through a 12-month cycle, that means all companies will have to lower their purchases now, or the close-out market next summer will be quite large. This hurts everyone, as we have proven in the past three years.

Reynolds Blacklabel rims are made in their Utah factory
Reynolds Blacklabel rims are made in their Utah factory
Reynolds manufactures its top-drawer Blacklabel wheels, (like this DH wheelset) in its Utah factory. Reynolds also has a factory in Taiwan, which is a requirement for any component maker that hopes to supply OEM manufacturers there.

How will the tariffs enacted last month, or the new tariffs proposed more recently, affect Reynolds and its retail customers?


AJ Ariss: Fortunately, Reynolds' country of origin for our wheels is not China, as much of the work performed and value is added in Taiwan. As such, our wheel business should not be directly impacted. However, since we source components other than rims, there will likely be some impact on our component costs. The metal tariffs will have a direct impact on us when and if those go into effect, as we source raw aluminum from the EU to produce our tooling here in the US. Reynolds will take every step necessary to mitigate the impact of these tariffs prior to considering passing on the impact to our customers.

Pivot
Pivot's new Firebird 29. Chris Cocalis is known among Asian factories as a force to be reckoned with when it comes to quality. Pivot's long-standing relationships with its China factories will be jeopardized if tariffs price those suppliers out of the market.

Bike brands are already shifting production from China to other Pacific Rim countries to avoid stiff EU tariffs. Can suppliers in countries like Taiwan, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Indonesia ramp up to absorb a Chinese exodus?


Chris Cocalis: In some areas it is possible and in some areas it is not. If you have a low to mid-end product, then maybe it’s a bit easier. When you’ve worked with your manufacturing partners for many years and have stable and very high quality production, running to the next lowest price option is not a great idea. It can be done, but it takes time to do it correctly and sometimes the actual cost is not worth the savings on paper.

Like Pivot, some high-end brands that import Chinese frames assemble their bikes in the US. Most enthusiast level components are made in Taiwan, so complete bikes assembled there with Chinese-made frames do not incur the new tariffs. Could a potential, $300 plus retail price increase for Chinese frames imported to the US provide a disincentive to move those assembly jobs to Taiwan?

Pivot imports frames and components to its US factory and assembles the bikes there in Tempe. Arizona.
The bicycle assembly line at Pivot Cycle's Tempe, Arizona, headquarters. Pivot also has an assembly operation in Europe.

Chris Cocalis: There is already a duty in place on complete bikes [11%, including Taiwan], which is higher than the duties currently paid on [Chinese made] frames and some components. Other components, like brakes, shocks and complete wheels, have a higher, 10% duty at present. So, if an additional 10% tariff (or 25%, which is now what [US Customs] are now talking about revising to) were to go into effect, it could certainly be an incentive for companies to shift their production elsewhere. It is much more than just the additional $300 (or $750 if this latest increase goes to 25%). US bike assembly is done by very few companies currently, because it’s generally less expensive to build the bikes elsewhere. This is just icing on the cake [for US assemblers].

Is Washington protecting US businesses? Are they forcing bike buyers to shoulder the cost of punishing China?


Andrew Herrick: As for forcing bike buyers to shoulder the cost of punishing China, that is exactly what will happen. I don't know who in the US is being protected by these tariffs - the spirit of tariffs is to protect the domestic production, a practice that dates back hundreds of years.

To find the highest quality of a manufacturing process, you follow of the labor pool. Carbon fiber production of bikes and components requires a massive amount of man-hours. Fifteen or twenty years ago, China was the source of a large labor force, so it was the natural place to start making mass production carbon. Now, they have 20 years of experience and the best capability to make it.
US Bicycle Imports vs. Exports: Not Much Trade to Protect

US bicycle imports vs exports 2006 through 2017
US bicycle exports have flat-lined for ten years. With no commercial incentives offered from the Feds and no industry to protect at home, tariffs on bicycles amount to a stiff federal tax on end consumers and a sales tax hand-out to the States. - Flexport.com image

rider direct
The 2018 Intense Carbine. Andrew Herrick was CEO of Intense Cycles when the decision was made to end US manufacturing of aluminum frames and later, to dramatically reduce prices and shift to a "Rider Direct" sales model. Tariffs, however, could wipe out Rider Direct's advantages. - Intense photo

Rated on a scale from one to ten, what is the viability of producing mountain bikes and components in the US?


Chris Cocalis: For carbon, I would give it a 3. Now that we have a nice 25% tariff on steel and aluminum, that makes the ability to manufacture our tooling even less competitive. And, for alloy frame manufacturing? Basically, that puts the US out of the game.

AJ Ariss: Today, Reynolds does produce limited production runs in our Salt Lake City factory. Industry Nine, our exclusive Blacklabel hub supplier, makes all their hubs in the US, and we source ALL our raw carbon fiber from California. Consumers also now expect quicker delivery and more customization options. The long lead time from Asia poses several challenges, so you either have to stock a significant inventory in many variants, stock inventory in a flexible state, or produce it locally. In the end, we think production in the US can make a lot of sense.

However, for us the biggest problem with US production is that all the bicycle assembly factories are found in Asia. Until a significant quantity of bike assembly moves to the US, it is unlikely for US production to increase. With the industry in its current state, we’d say 3 on a scale of 1 to 10. Assembly of bicycles is still primarily a hand operation and this is likely to remain in countries where the availability of inexpensive labor can be found. For this to change, major component manufacturers would have to invest in component factories in the US in tandem with major frame manufacturers to not only manufacture, but automate and streamline assembly.

Will Montague: For a new operation: 10. For an existing operation: 3. From our analysis, the cost benefits of manufacturing in Asia have diminished, as the primary initial benefit of manufacturing there was low labor costs. With rising labor costs, freight costs, and the introduction of new technologies (in software, machines, and materials) there is a blue ocean of opportunity to break with the status quo of an Asian supply chain that, (in our industry) is typically slow, inventory intensive, and not integrated into product design. It's difficult to change, though, because so much has already been established there and the costs of moving a factory are prohibitive. Additionally, most companies in the bike industry are branding, distribution, and (occasionally) design houses - not manufacturers.

Andrew Herrick: Unfortunately, except for very special products that are in the very high end of the price spectrum, such as Enve wheel sets and Chris King headsets, handmade frame-builder artisans - companies that we should all be proud of in our industry - there's no supply chain in the US. In your question, I assume you mean manufacturing in the pure sense, not just assembly. In that case, the viability, as a business case, is close to zero.

We don't have to be sad about that - we are truly a global family in the industry. No need for nationalism here. We can all share in the process of designing, building, marketing, selling and servicing bikes. The best companies in our industry are companies like SRAM that have great people in the US, great people in China and Taiwan, great people in Germany and other countries and they all work together in the common language of bicycles. How cool is that? Sorry to get off on a tangent, but I am very proud that bikes mean freedom for everyone in every place, for every race, boys and girls, men and women, all with a common thread. We are truly a global family and that will be the lasting legacy of the bicycle in all of its forms. And to that I say, "amen."





Analysis: Follow the Money

Tariffs are blunt instruments. The federal government is attempting to punish China by raising prices at home until Americans have had enough and stop buying Chinese goods. It's clear many industry leaders are skeptical that US tariffs on imported Chinese bicycles and components will help US bicycle brands. So, what's the motivation? Reportedly, the President tasked US Customs last month to assemble a list of an additional 200 billion dollars worth of Chinese exports. There are 6,031 items on that list (it must have been a Herculean task) and bicycles were simply low-hanging fruit.
hero image

Combined revenue from the new tariffs will be significant. The Feds plan to pocket over 450 billion dollars annually. That represents a massive tax burden, but because it is paid by corporate entities and then passed down indirectly through increased retail prices, many will not recognize it as such. To bring that down to earth, it's close to $1400 for every man, woman and child living in the US. That's a lot of money to spend in hopes that China will quiver in her boots for a few months. And while US citizens shoulder that burden by paying higher prices on just about everything, Washington gets to go on a spending spree. Economists concur that the Fed should raise taxes when the economy is strong (which it is) in order to pay down debt-spending incurred during recessions. One can only hope that the national debt is high on Washington's shopping list.


Forecast for the Mountain Bike Industry: Better Than Expectations

The trade war between China and the US will inflict some casualties, but some good may come to US mountain bike brands as well. On the one hand, the timing for a substantial price increase for bikes and components could not be more disruptive.

Customer-direct brands like Commencal and YT have helped to drive prices down and set the industry on a new course of high value/high performance bike design. In response, consumer confidence is ramping up and riders who felt they had been priced out of the high-end market are again shopping for new bikes. You don't need a crystal ball to predict how adding $300 to $800 to the MSRP of a new bike will change that dynamic.
Alchemy Arktos review test. Photo by James Lissimore.
Alchemy Arktos: Taking up the made-it here-challenge, Alchemy builds its carbon front sections, imports its rear triangles and assembles bikes in the US.

On the flip side, artificially supported prices could actually encourage some made-in-the-USA efforts. Alchemy Bicycles is ramping up its carbon bicycle production. Ibis has soft-launched in-house production of its small-sized carbon Ripley LS frames, and at least two other "conspicuous" brands are secretly working towards limited US production. There is also the possibility that Washington could be pushed into offering startup bicycle manufacturing ventures subsidies in the form of low-interest loans and tax breaks as a way of mitigating the damage that tariffs may inflict on the industry.

Further evidence that US bike makers can weather this storm and emerge profitable comes from the EU. European Union countries levy astounding anti-dumping and import tariffs against China and neighboring Asian manufacturers, yet somehow, European bike brands are surviving quite well. Flawed though it may be, the US economy is robust. History suggests that it won't take too long to get this tariff thing sorted. - RC


502 Comments

  • + 183
 Americans complain about jobs not being created in USA and global warming, then they go to Amazon or Wallmart and buy cheap Chinese products built in polluting factories which will ultimately end up in a landfill in a few years due to poor quality. I am happy for some kind of tariffs against China. Let's buy and build great products in the USA again!! I am ok with paying higher prices for US quality made products
  • + 77
 You vote with how you buy. Apparently where it comes from is less important than price. Buying as local as you can from an actual store in your town helps everyone around you.
  • + 62
 Enjoy your $11k Alchemy Arktos with ENVE and Rotor.
  • - 6
flag DH-Angel (Aug 8, 2018 at 14:36) (Below Threshold)
 i agree! you are someone who thinks logically.
  • + 51
 @zsandstrom: Or a GG for far less? And there are manufactures in Canada (still way better than China)
  • + 76
 Us citizens are not, generally speaking, considered to be concerned about global warming. To say it in a nice way
  • + 154
 I am NO fan of Trump. But I kind of like the fact someone is finally standing up to China. We need a more (local) balanced manufacturing system. Another cargo ship just dropped a shit load of containers in the ocean just a few hours ago. Our oceans are dying because of these oilfield gulping pigs of the sea. Fiberglass sailboats are a death wish nowadays, I cant afford an aluminium catamaran and I dont want steel monohull for a family cruiser but that may be the only way to go now. Fck industrialized global trade. There I said it. It rapes the earth and it rapes humans. I wish Sea Shephard would go after these fckers too. Down vote away but someone needs to stop this madness before the last reefs die. (Waves angry fist in the air) NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!
  • + 97
 What I'm confused by is the reported 48.5% tariff the EU apparently already has and no one seems to be talking about. Why is everyone so upset about raising the US % above 11 all of a sudden when I don't recall any PB articles discussing that 48.5% EU tariff mentioned.
  • - 10
flag weedoot (Aug 8, 2018 at 14:46) (Below Threshold)
 did you read the above article?
  • + 46
 Let’s not forget essentially the slave and child labor that allows those prices to be available that American consumerism promotes.
  • + 60
 @erik2k10 You have a superficial understanding of tariffs and probably no understanding of the history of tariffs and their consequences if you think that tariffs will lead to anything good, like more job creation in the US, or that the only downside here is that you might have to pay a higher price for your next bike under a tariff regime. People (even you possibly) will lose their jobs as demand of their company's products go down, everyone's wages will be depressed as growth slows and unemployment increases if this trade war continues or escalates. All that isn't worth protecting a few industries who lack the comparative advantage to produce their goods at a competitive price. Its a whole lot of deadweight loss to protect some antiquated archetypes of american manufacturing.
  • + 15
 @stealthpenguin: it's 2018, 'consumerism' is hardly any American monopoly. Countries in South American somehow have a higher percentage of Chinese goods than we do in the US. I've been been floored by how much is Chinese down there. China itself consumerism is skyrocketing. All the while sustainability is catching on at a higher and higher rate here domestically
  • + 37
 @ninjatarian: Ya, that stat blew me away! Why is no one talking about a freaking 48% tariff the EU has? No wonder Brexit passed.
  • + 39
 So now it is suddenly good that the government makes decisions for you? What happened to “get the government off my back!”? You see, you can’t applaud gov intervention here but not on e.g. environmental protection.
Why can’t the consumer I.e. the free market, make the call whether Americans buy American-made goods?
  • + 25
 Erik thanks for letting us know that we're making bad purchasing decisions.

You ride a Santa Cruz according to your profile. Where was it made?
  • + 5
 And no drivetrain.
  • + 51
 why do we assume built in the USA will be better quality?
  • + 24
 @da1994canucks:
Because Intense paintjobs make up for the sketchy alignment issues durrrrr
  • + 36
 The people who don't even have $500 in their bank accounts certainly won't be so happy to pay more, hence why they turn to cheap crap in Amazon and Walmart in the first place. Consumer capitalism is a messy thing: people go for the cheapest thing they can tolerate for what they want, companies make cheaper products to appeal to customers--it's all a race to the bottom.

Oh and that "US quality" doesn't really exist anymore. When you get rid of entire industries, you lose the capability to make said products and it becomes too expensive to start again.
  • - 3
 You didn't read the article at all, did you?
  • + 42
 I read this story like,
“Canadian bike shops have a record year selling bikes to Americans”
  • + 11
 @theedon: Ha! I am headed to Whistler next week. Maybe I will find some deals while up there due to the exchange rate. Hmmmm
  • + 57
 Corporate tax went from 35% to 21%. Where is our article asking for lower prices? Bias towards the manufacturer is evident at pinkbike.
  • + 22
 You're painting this with an extremely broad stroke. There are lots of high quality products built in China and other Asian countries. We are talking about top of the line mountain bikes here with some or most of their components produced offshore. The cheap Chinese crap you find in Walmart is a completely different discussion.
  • + 7
 @freestyIAM: massive upvote....
  • + 4
 @bman33: I was just up there two weeks ago, don't count on it. Plus the border patrol will think you're smuggling illegals inside the frame and will seize it under civil forfeiture.
  • - 7
flag endlessblockades (Aug 8, 2018 at 16:49) (Below Threshold)
  • + 0
 @titaniumtit: Ha! Thanks for the good laugh, and the beer out my nose.

@mitochris: The "free market" as an impartial distributor, assuring goods and resources are put to their highest use, is a myth.
  • + 72
 USA good. China bad. Patriotic purchasing is a sure win. Economics is easy. Complex issues are fake news. Trust your president.
  • + 21
 Go read Robinson Crusoe. Tariffs harm trade and make us all poorer. If you don't like goods from China then don't buy them. Not to mention, tariffs don't exactly encourage good relations between nations. Tariffs just put us on a path to being poorer and more likely to go to war.
  • + 7
 @PinkyScar: on point
  • + 9
 @westeast: "When goods don't cross borders, armies will"
  • + 2
 @PinkyScar: We've always been at war with Eurasia.
  • + 5
 @westeast: Go read 1984.
  • + 18
 A potentially worthy future Richard Cunningham article would be to build as close to a 100% “Made in USA” enduro or DH mountain bike (for example) and examine each component to work out where it was actually made and sourced from.
  • + 14
 You're not wrong. but tariffs are short term intangible tactics. Physical manufacturing capabilities are long term capital investments. Not may business peeps worth their salt invest in unsustainable, indefensible, temporary advantages what can change in a few years. Big factories are amortized over decades. Political winds shift, tariffs and artificial domestic business advantages float away on the breeze.
  • + 5
 I for one dont want those factories coming the US cities. I'm not a fan of the massive pollution, low paying jobs, government corruption, and all the other societal issues that come with factory cities like the ones in China. Bringing so many factories to the USA is not going to create a magical middle class utopia, its going to turn the US into China.
  • + 2
 @theedon: exchange rate
  • + 3
 @tavaenga: Just like they did with the Made in UK article
  • + 12
 @matadorCE: this. Every time a new product pops up on PB homepage and it’s cheap as hell, everyone promptly praises the company no matter where it’s made. Whenever Enve, King, or other domestically made-but-pricy products come up, people freak out and hurl old produce at their monitors.

The concept of tariffs being a good thing is based on false assumptions. It assumes that people don’t necessarily want or need cheaper goods, and/or it assumes that there are suppliers in the US that can fill the void left by Chinese suppliers cut out by the tariffs. Neither of those things are true, and anyone who believes that US suppliers can turn around and deliver affordable, quality goods while paying their employees adequately is flat wrong, especially when tariffs on raw materials are adding to the pain. Companies like GG are awesome, but will get hit by raw materials costs, and ultimately none of their bikes can be considered in the realm of “affordable” for a rider looking to enter the sport, or for an enthusiast who can’t justify a $3k bike.

Riders with the disposable income can, and should, speak with their wallets and buy quality, durable components made here in the USA. Durability means less need to buy new stuff, and ultimately is less of a burden on the environment relative to cheap, less durable goods. If you have the means, pay attention to “Made in _____” labels. Sadly, for the vast majority of riders that have added to the immense growth in mountain biking over the last decade, the lower end of the market is becoming inescapably less affordable due to protectionist policies without accompanying improvements in quality.
  • - 5
flag madmon (Aug 8, 2018 at 20:04) (Below Threshold)
 ...
  • + 18
 @zhendo: I am a rider with a disposable income, and I do vote with my wallet. I buy 2nd hand/private. LoL

This industry better start making some real changes if they want me buy something off of the showroom floor. Especially for the amount of $$$ they are asking. I've been around for far too long...
  • + 2
 @ninjatarian: YT seems to provide a pretty good value considering their frames and materials cost me from China?
  • + 1
 What time does your church open? @Boardlife69:
  • + 8
 @freestyIAM: Absolutely. Anyone with a passing understanding of tariffs, trade wars, and their history knows they're not really "winnable" and in the U.S. they've been used as rhetorical tools to whip up populist support: nativisim. I'm curious what support the author has that the current incarnation will be "sorted out soon" bc most observers seem to think this is going to get worse.
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: I haven't bought a brand new bike since 2004 lol, YT had me thinking as close to buying one as I have come in years but the deal is never as good as I have been able to find in private sale. Perhaps one day but if you want to avoid tariff and tax the answer is simple...
  • + 3
 @bman33: except we already have duties on bikes and many parts to protect are awesome bike manufacturing industry: CCM and the last of the aluminum Devinci's
  • + 0
 @tavaenga: that would be a sweet bike and the half dozen enduro bros who could afford it would delight in talking about it with everyone at the trailhead.
  • + 2
 @singleandluvinit: it doesn’t have to be factory city’s. It’s also 2018 and factories can be made in ways that do not pollute nearly as much as an old Chinese factory. Think of a 1970s car vs 2010.
  • + 1
 @ukr77: I have never looked at the YT website and saw anything that wasn't sold out with the exception of a lowest build kits in XL or smaller sizes. I guess that is good for them. However, I see very few compared to the hype they receive.
  • + 0
 @ninjatarian: Where do you get these stats from? Last I checked America enjoyed a trade surplus with the EU. There was a retaliation for tariffs set by Trump's administration but nowhere near 48.5%.
www.cnbc.com/2018/06/09/reuters-america-factbox-import-tariffs-eu-versus-united-states.html
  • + 1
 @plyawn: I have a 2015 Wilson alloy on it's 4th season, love that bike btw. Be up at Whistler next week with it.
  • + 1
 @NotNamed: Devinci aluminum bikes are still made in Canada but they're carbon frames are made overseas i believe
  • + 4
 @matttauszik: yeah that seemed like RC fishing for optimism to end the article...
  • + 2
 @bman33:
Not in Whistler you certainly won’t. The bike stores there don’t exactly cater for the average Canadian wallet. It’s a playground for the well heeled and for foreign money.
  • - 14
flag twodragunns (Aug 8, 2018 at 21:41) (Below Threshold)
 @donpinpon29: Firstly global warming is a complete hoax. The spraying of nano particles via aerosol spraying from jet planes (Chemtrails) is creating global warming. Anyone with more than 2 brain cells is aware of this fact.
  • + 2
 @zsandstrom: lol exactly
  • + 1
 @ukr77: Only their carbon comes from china. The Al stuff comes from Taiwan.
  • + 5
 @singleandluvinit: so you think it's better to use underpaid laborers, poor environmental practices, uber corrupt political systems to produce your stuff for you, and then have it shipped half way around the world on a gas guzzling cargo ship, all so that you don't have to be bothered by living close to a manufacturing faciliy? Seems like a well thought out perspective...
  • + 2
 @mitochris: A "free market" (fully deregulated) results in monopolistic loss of choice and massive wealth disparity. Not to mention destruction of the environment and exploitation of human capital until the bots take over. Health care plans for robots are way cheaper. All industry would replace human workers if they could get away with it.
  • - 1
 @donpinpon29: wrong , stop believing the mass media!
  • + 0
 @endlessblockades: I’m not not an advocate of a totally free market. I just don’t like hypocrisy. More worrying is that the post gets a 100 likes.
Yes, you need tariffs to protect the environment and workers, although straight out bans would be better, but not to make better quality products.
  • + 1
 @ukr77: YT is made in Taiwan by a German company.
  • + 1
 @stealthpenguin: You should read the book from William Macaskill on effective altruism "Doing Good Better" and it will change your perspective on child labour. In a nutshell: it is important to buy products from countries such as China so they can have a way out of extreme poverty (same as in the western world when we went through the dark ages of industrialization). It's not good of course but better for the world as a whole...
  • + 0
 @twodragunns: You are King Troll tonight!
  • + 3
 @donpinpon29: not true. Just because rich fossil fuel industry execs have funded a war on truth and Republican gov actors are mightily rewarded to roll back environmental protections and continue to spread falsehoods about the reality of of global warming, the majority of the American public is knowledgeable of climate change and support necessary protections.

There are many Americans who buy the fossil fuel line of BS hook line and sinker, but not the majority.
  • + 1
 @ninjatarian: The main difference between US and Europe are the Eastern European countries.
There are still places in Europe where the labour cost is even lower than in China, and a ton of bicycles being assembled there every year.
  • + 1
 @donpinpon29: I'm one of them!
  • + 0
 MAGA ! thanks
  • + 1
 @Mtmw: and which brand referenced in the article do you think is working on manufacturing in the US it'll have to be one charging enough for the bikes and have plenty of in house carbon fibre testing and prototyping...
  • + 4
 @ninjatarian: @hamncheez: Actually, this a misquote - or at least there's a lot more to it than that...

Yes, Duty on Bicycles from China is 48.5%, HOWEVER, certain factories have preferential rates as long as you provide supporting 'anti-dumping' documentation on import.

Check out this page for some more info. www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/8712003090?country=CN&day=8&month=8&year=2018#import

Essentially, only a handful of bikes will be imported to the EU at 48.5% - there's also a whole heap of tricks that Bike manufacturers will use to avoid this, such as shipping bikes incomplete to classify them as 'parts' which is a much lower duty rate.
  • + 1
 I want to ride a bike from the 3rd most corrupt country in the world.
  • + 11
 @ninjatarian: My thoughts in response to your comment are: 1) The EU never acted the way the US has in regards to manufacturing and worker protection. For example, in Germany it’s the law that a labor union representative sits on the board of German companies. The typical CEO in a German company makes roughly 10-20 times the average worker. Not 100- 500 times the average worker. 2)The EU wasn’t so stupid as to allow its companies to shift ALL major manufacturing capability out of the EU for decades thereby completely diminishing it’s capability to not only make things, but also putting itself way down on the experience curve regarding new techniques and technologies. The US has done exactly that. Now we impose tariffs on raw materials (needed to start new manufacturing) and finished products? Not a wise move from
an economic standpoint. The EU tariffs are anti-dumping tariffs. China’s environmental standards are abysmal. The EU can comfortably do that because they have the manufacturing base, the labor talent, (they protect their workers by actually paying them living wages and providing health care) and they also have environmental standards. All of these things, yet their economy does very well. This is the polar opposite of what is pushed in this country: Elimination of worker protection, and environmental standards, and then everything will be fine. Uuuumm... I guess if what you want is a third world model.
  • + 9
 @donpinpon29: What do you know about US Citizens? We care about a lot of things! I'm tired of America being categorized a the boogie man. We are more socially responsible then our "news" organizations report. I say clean up your own yard before you start bashing someone else's yard.
  • + 4
 @hamncheez: because stuff is made in Taiwan to get around it

makes little difference to UK consumer

brexit passed beacuse some people here believed the lies of a few millionaire conmen
  • + 1
 @Kimbers: how is brexit working out? I ask because I care.
  • + 2
 Yes the only problem is that tariffs have never worked in the world economy. Yes having more jobs in the U.S would be advantageous but the only problem is that the minimum wage difference between the countries that make the bikes--the minimum wage because of the social unrest and government change transitioning from a second or third world country to a first world country. If read the NYT especially Paul Krugman (a capitalistic marxist) he explains why tariffs never work. And if the metal working for making bikes here in the U.S if profitable, carbon would never work because of the toxic chemicals used in the making of the making of bikes. (frames, wheels, handlebars, stems etc)
  • + 2
 @TheGnome: "Capitalistic Marxist" ummmm, well ok. Not sure I will take anything any Marxist says on economy or human rights seriously
  • + 3
 @zhendo: other countries make goods as well. There are pros and cons to tariffs. Maybe when the dust settles other countries will help fill the void that China leaves or not. When we all worry about the environment and how products are made...let's look st China through that lenses and see if it fits will our ideal of a clean earth and fair trade.
  • + 3
 @mkul7r4: I've read it. It certainly seems applicable these days with all the "newspeak" going on (patriot act, affordable healthcare act, not able to question the official story regarding global warming, vaccines, Russia, gender identity, political correctness) I guess now that we have smart TVs our supreme leaders will be able to give us our morning brainwashing.
  • + 0
 @stealthpenguin: Young talent! But these are not the labor conditions that prevail, at least in Taiwan. Americans complain about rich people, but elected DJT, who has rolled back environmental protections and will now enrich big Government at the enthusiast's expense. For elites--including Chris Cocalis?--countries are markets and venues for bike races. If we're serious about locally made, we buy bespoke steel bikes or suck it up.
  • - 1
 @zhendo: I need a good set of disc brakes for my DH bike. Do you recommend any disc brakes that are made here in the USA?
  • + 1
 @zsandstrom: OK!!!!!
  • + 3
 @enger: totally agree, and I happen to love a lot of the stuff coming out of Europe and other countries.

@DaveJube sadly no, I wish we had a good option. Hope and Formula are standout Europe examples of good options. I’m not preaching ‘Merica or bust, I’m mostly generalizing around places producing cheap parts with poor labor practices. Europe, Japan, and some other places make rad stuff at high standards too, but supporting US manufacturing is a good thing to make sure we still have a bike industry that isn’t entirely at the mercy of wonky trade policies.
  • + 2
 Lol you won’t be buying American products anytime soon even with those tariffs. Let’s get real, if you go around your house I bet 99% of the items are made overseas
  • + 2
 @mkotowski1: yup. Sad truth. Ikea crap is even made in china. My next round of furniture will be made in Canada. Only cost a couple grand more total. Re modelling the kitchen soon and trying to source made it Canada for a reasonable cost.
  • + 0
 Made in China by US Companies! SRAM, Specialized, Trek, Cannodale, IBIS...lets go down the list?
Trump thinks Americans are dummies, he's proven right!
  • + 1
 @makripper: May the Force be with your sir. I just remodeled my older one-bedroom condo with my soon to be wife. Often more than you bargain for. Hammers up! Big Grin
  • + 0
 @bman33: If you have read marxist theory and before mentioned NYT writer you would conclude that the U.S is the only developed country to not have a system like before mentioned. Japan, Denmark, U.K, Canada, Germany and many others. That was a overall generality but those systems have worked and are working just fine like a "Capitalistic Marxist" economy. Go read Krugman's work and the same for Marx's to understand the point that I am coming from.
  • + 0
 @tavaenga: and then price it out at full MSRP.
  • - 2
 @singleandluvinit: Dat deer it da issue. Those that do and willing, have a natural advantage or subject their people and environment to the goal of world trade domination, dominate. Dat was the US in the 50's, but then you gots all like "I don't want this, and individual and environmental rights that", droppd the ball and all ya got left with is the failing pretence of global power through military might, while whining th ahell about them that smashing you on the global economic scene. Build a wall mate. Oh hang on, you are hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. More walls. Did you yanks ever stop and think - Trump: made money through global trade in hotel industry, free to invest globally, pay minimum wages and use local low cost employees and return profits to US. US to World - Im going to stop the world doing likewise, because we don't like countries whom pay a better game than us. Talk about Political and Economic unrest in China.....just wait til dem mid west farmers continue to lose markets and you cant subsidise em. Bring on US Civil War 2021.
  • + 0
 @scott-townes:

BC has massive provincial sales taxes, go to Alberta next time and save close to 10%
  • + 0
 right on!!!
  • + 2
 If there’s one thing that would change the game and make the production economically viable it would be banning imports of product that were not manufactured in line with certain environmental and labour rules. That’s what’s really needed to jump start production in the US and arguably Europe. Will the US do that? Probably not because the tariffs isn’t about the environment/labour standards it’s about stopping IP theft. However if the US took the view that shifting production to the US in the long term would help protect IP then it could consistent with an overall policy of encouraging domestic production.

Sounds like Guerilla would have a go, sounds like Pivot wouldn’t unless they were forced by rules. I get they have invested heavily in getting quality production sorted and would be personally quite upsetting for Cocalis to see such a huge amount of work go down the drain. Trek is already doing it at scale which is why there Bikes are cheaper than Pivot.
  • + 1
 @Travel66: Such a policy had been suggested by two republicans. This was taxing the production that do not fulfil certain environmental standards. It was especially thought for CO2.
Apparently there is now a suggested bill in the works that would tax the use of fossil fuel. The gained revenue would go directly back to the taxpayer but the idea is that an increased price on products would deter people to buy it in the first place.
  • + 0
 @mitochris: interesting, but a hard ban would be better. You won’t stop dumping even with high tariffs if the Chinese govt wants the jobs.
  • + 1
 Perfect timing. It was already a great time to not buy a new bike. Just chains, pads, rubbers and lube
  • + 2
 Those Chinese rubbers are way too small.
  • - 1
 @fecalmaster: Hard to understimate how much a shambles the country is in over Brexit. Immediately not as bad as government warned it would be. But value of £ has tumbled- inflation means average family is £800 worse off since the vote.
This + government having no clue how to make it work has stalled inward investment & led to GDP growth going from fastest to slowest in the G7. Manufacturing sector has just gone int recession despite low £ in theory helping exports. (Trumps tarif war has spooked markets & is a factor in this too, cheers)

We were promised easiest deal in history- but exit negotiations have seen UK gov concede on every point so far. The 2 most prominent Brexit supporting MPs have resigned from cabinet having failed to come up with any plan. Cost of preparation so far is in the £bns & several large EU bodies have already left the UK. Numbers of doctors & nurses coming from EU to UK have dropped as NHS endures worst staffing crisis in history.
All of this means that the government is paralysed, Brexit is consuming 100% of the governments focus, so theyre completely unable to deal with the real issues the country faces.

The public & both main parties are completely divided on how to make Brexit work.

The real problem is that no one has a plan for something this complex & politicians as usual wont be honest & admit this.

So basically its chaos & no one has a clue what comes next.



In summary, I am not a fan.
  • + 1
 @Kimbers: Hate to see government decisions gone bad, trust me we are at historic levels of stupidity here in the US. Thinking about moving to Switzerland, they always seem to put the people first and quality of life is amazing, not to mention the mega mountains to exploit for shredding pleasure. Hopefully both our countries can get it together, wishful thinking.
  • + 0
 @Dlakusta: not really lol our pst and gst total 12% there are lots of exceptions including bike related gear where you don't pay PST. alberta is at 5% and im not sure what exceptions they have.

Ontario gets hosed big time! they have HST of 13% for everything!
  • + 0
 Ok, and you can live right next to the factories
  • - 2
 @ryanbpoquette: someone has to you ignorant shit.
  • - 1
 @rivercitycycles: Right. Massive amounts of obese people commuting solo daily in huge SUVs is very commonplace around the world.
  • - 2
 @motard5: if it were not for the hearts and souls of these so called obese Americans.......we all know where your country would be today! So enough with your claptrap and over generalizations about Americans.
  • + 1
 @motard5: +/-35,000 " obese Americans " died protecting your country....
  • + 0
 I just live here. Peace?@gonzoracing:
  • + 0
 @makripper: exactly, YOU!
  • + 110
 I make things in China all the time. We brought manufacturing back for a while, but we can't compete. Say you're making a stem. They can run a forging press twice as fast because there are no osha rules. There are no rules against spraying the lube in the dies that is illegal here because of their lax environmental rules. No breathing protection, no eye protection, none of the basics the the rest of the world considers mandatory protection.
Try to get an anodizing shop opened in the US- you pretty much can't because of the same environmental rules. They just dump their effluent into the river.
Then look at the software they're using. It's often pirated which means stolen.
I can go on and on because I actually spend time there in actual factories making all kinds of stuff.
And nobody complained when the ski boots I designed weren't competitive in the EU because of 23% tariffs.
Or any footwear into the EU because of protectionism in Montebelluna.

The trade war might be poorly thought out and poorly targeted, but the rest of the world is taking it in the shorts from Chinese made goods.
  • + 11
 Amen. Thank you from a logical perspective
  • + 5
 Will tarriffs matter though? Won't China just use their ability to devalue their currency to maintain their actual production, even at the expense of their profits. I think the only way we win this particular trade war is to make them consumers like us. Even then this just shifts the production somewhere else (Africa, other Pacific rim nations, right to work states).
  • + 3
 @gotohe11carolina: well if they do that too extensively it will weaken their buying power considerably.
  • + 14
 You are 100% correct, the facts you have stated are just plain wrong to human kind. By purchasing these items we support all of the above. We support people making our products and being exposed to danger, effecting the environment and wasting our resources. As long as we don't know how they were made or who suffered making it , we are fine with it.

Tariffs are a bad idea too, as it only raises the bottom line and no one benefits. The money doesn't go to reinvent US Industry. It goes to the governments which they will blow the money on high cost of governing anyways.

Bottom line it all starts and ends with the man you see in a mirror. It's a question of "want and need".

I can ride and have fun on 5 year old bike purchased 2nd hand. But I WANT a new 15K bike. Which next year I will pay 18K.
One thing I learned a long time ago. “There isn’t price cap on Hobbies” People will pay shit load of money to treat themselves.

The positive outcome on this is that if the components will got up this might start some innovation. It will motivate some smart local hands-on guy or Engineer to start making local made products.

Like we seen in recent years.
  • + 1
 @humoroususername: No doubt. Though it would seem they can play the long haul game. Our economy\consumers arent set up to do that.
  • + 1
 @gotohe11carolina: Wait until they start dumping their U.S. debt.
  • + 15
 @matttauszik: That itself is a falsehood. China, as a gov't, owns approximately 8% give or take a few hundredths of our total national federal debt. A large sum of money, but small overall percentage. Let them dump with their manipulated currency. I am not a Trump fan,didn't vote for him (or Hillary) but someone has to call them out over the last say 30 years of their BS. Will it hurt in short term? Perhaps. However, Trump, like him or not, isn't a slave to a political party. He understands where he stands and that he can 'burn' political capital without it hurting because he isn't a career politician.
I said all this knowing I will get down voted into oblivion and called who knows what type of names. Big Grin
  • + 0
 @gotohe11carolina:
The US and every other country out there devalues their currency. It’s a race to the bottom and those that aren’t politically connected (receiving the freshly printed currencies) are the big losers.
  • + 2
 @westeast: our currency is traded in the open market like most countries. The renminbi is controlled by the pboc.
  • + 1
 @nonk
So you're cool with all those harmful manufacturing processes and the risk they put people at and the environmental fall out? Gotcha. What do you produce so I can not buy whatever it is?
  • + 1
 This is an interesting video of economic impact to failed political nation's. Bio waste intrucated to it's very core.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=RHE0b2Cp_iE#searching
  • + 3
 @Poulsbojohnny:does it matter what he produces? do you think he works with the only "bad" factories China has to offer? is that keyboard you are using to call him out American made? if so...
  • + 2
 I'd be curious to know if the situation isn't similar in other places like Taiwan and now Vietnam. As someone who regularly works with industrial pretreatment programs in the US, I would say you're dead on OSHA rules and how difficult it is to operate a metal plating operation here. And given my limited knowledge of how a lot of other industrialized countries in that part of the world handle these issues, I'd be surprised if it was that different than China (but perhaps less obvious to the casual visitor).
  • + 5
 @Poulsbojohnny: @Poulsbojohnny: First, I don't make bike parts. Second, we have a strong environmental vetting process that makes sure we go to the best- or at least least bad manufacturers. There are good ones in China, but way more bad ones. Metal parts like I described we make in Taiwan where there are actual rules.
Not perfect, and really not adequate, but if you want to compete at all, you have to make some stuff in China.
And, you did buy a computer to write that - the electronics industry in China is bigger and worse by several orders of magnitude.
Fundamentally though, you're right, so try to buy things made in countries with rules.
  • + 0
 @humoroususername: They own your debt boys, and Russia owns the photos of the President. Call it in world, the dealer has called last hand.
  • + 1
 We own the biggest soapy tits in the world.
  • + 63
 "Additionally, most companies in the bike industry are branding, distribution, and (occasionally) design houses - not manufacturers." - Guerrilla Gravity fires across the bow.
  • + 1
 So true though. Let's call them what they are.
  • + 31
 I hate Trump in most ways but I am happy we're confronting China. Their lack of respect for human beings, the environment, other nation's land and sovereignty (Tibet, Taiwan, S. China Sea), IP theft, counterfeit products, hacking attempts, etc. are long overdue to be addressed, and the only reason they have not is simple.. greed.
  • + 21
 hmm...I think I have heard almost exactly the same discourse on some other country...perhaps somewhere in the western world?
  • - 17
flag davec113 (Aug 8, 2018 at 16:55) (Below Threshold)
 @webermtb: Nice "what about?" argument. You sure you're not Russian?
  • + 16
 @davec113: Nop. A humble Mexican-German that happens to love mountain biking Wink
  • + 11
 Agree on all points about China...however, it is very easy to make the situation worse for everyone. Also, there has been ZERO mention of human rights or environment in any official release of tariff justification.
  • + 7
 Yeah Trump is really all over their human rights and environmental abuses. Yeah, Tibet, too. GTFOH.
  • - 1
 @webermtb: What country was that?
  • + 5
 @Sardine: this! No, instead they put tariffs on Europe too, and remove environmental and worker protections in the US. They are initiating a race to the bottom.
If environment and workers rights were at the centre of this, then they would have collected all their allies and together forced China and other candidates to change.
But these things are not in this government’s interest.
  • + 18
 We humans are fascinating. @davec113 what you basically just did is you came to a food truck sellng burgers and did this: Hello mr Guan-choo at first I want to say that animal farming tortures animals and destroys environment and you are a big part of the problem. Your truck is made overseas taking jobs from my neighbors, I want one double cheese burger and a coke. BTW this food is extremely unhealthy as it combines complex processed carbohydrates with animal fats, on top of that there’s too much sodium and corn/fructose based syrups, what is it? Yes I’ll take double dressimg, yes please. In a way I cannot blame you, it is a fault of our former president, sorry, by no means I am supporting the current one, but... oh thank you, let me take that. I will pay you a bit now and then the rest next month or later. You know what, no, can I borrow a 100 bucks? Yes, thank you. Your employer is a horrible man mr Choo, something needs to be done, people need to stand up against what you people do. Good bye and have a nice day

Just in case I will translate it for you. I don’t wrote it to davec113 personally, this attitude is alll over this place. You take all the economical benefits of overseas loans and production, consciously or not, yet you cut yourself from it like you weren’t and point finger at them for being the bad guys. You are ears deep in your own shit yet you talk about others. Then you add it’s the governments fault. Never yours. It’s theothers
  • + 5
 #FreeTibet
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: cheesy but true: don't talk the talk. walk the walk.
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: brilliant! And they refuse to see it.
  • + 0
 @ka81: doesn’t seem to fit.
  • + 2
 @loganflores: because you're too fat. (not saying we're any better).
  • + 3
 @loganflores: you should open your eyes I guess..
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: Buying MIC goods is unavoidable in some cases but I actually do avoid it if possible. It's not like we're all too stupid to understand what you're saying, you act as if we're oblivious... this is far from the truth.
  • + 2
 "Their lack of respect for human beings, the environment, other nation's land and sovereignty"
Are you sure, you are not talking about USA? The rest of the world thinks so...
  • + 7
 @davec113: I don't speak personally to you, I just used your post as an example. I don't know you. But collectively, no other country whines on MIC as much as you do. Europeans consume MIC goods just like you, we buy stupid shit we don't need, but somehow we rarely cry out loud on how terrible it is that the world is constructed this way. Off course unless some dickhead wants to get elected for whatever chair he wants to sit on.

Lazyness is a component of efficiency, it leads to reaching for low hanging fruits. It's fine, it's good, you can't feed populations by using exclusively a high horse to pick up stuff from top of the tree. It's like a law of physics. Organisms, among them humans, simply act this way. Same goes for expansion, there is not a single organism that ever existed on this planet and possibly in all of the universe, that does not seek expansion in variety of ways (leftie snowflakes don't get it, but nobody is perfect, I don't get calculus or knitting) Production in Asia, not just in China, but in Asia in general has been the low hanging fruit for all sectors of Western economy including finance. People ar moving from villages to cities, work in factories and in those cities gather more and more own capital in various forms, which increases their standard of living. And that increases apetite for more things to own and higher standard, better social security. this inevitably increases their wages and prices of products they produce. The reality is those prices will keep going up, Asia will stop being the low hanging fruit and we in the West will have to deal with the fact that we cannot afford as many toys as we used to. I underline it TOYS. We whine here about pricing of stupid mountain bikes. My grand parents, two generations away, worried about having something to eat, not being killed in the war, my parents at my age, worried if I will be able to get any bike and any toy for christmas. Two generations apart:

Oh God! Waffen SS is in town - VS - Oh God! Minion SS is 50$

So please, take increase of pricing of fancy bikes, cars, electronics with a bit of distance. Your necessities, food, homes are often produced in your own country. Cheer up.

Now another thing to consider, reality of manufacturing in the West that so many want to bring back. Westeners taken collectively, are whiny, comfortable bitches. If you will now open a factory and think people will line up to work in it, you are f*cking kidding yourself. Perhaps immigrants who have nothing. Forget that a white dude on social welfare will come to work in a factory for pennies. You can count on immigrant women, who care about the future of their kids, but their men, just like most Western unemployed males, will be more likely to check out last football match with beer in their hand and whine on injustice going on in this country. Try to find dedicated, motivated workforce like in Asia, in numbers necessary to run a large scale production of anything. Good freaking luck.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: "Oh God! Waffen SS is in town - VS - Oh God! Minion SS is 50$" Perfect illustration Waki Wink

Much of the bitching in the US about the most trivial things these days is only possible because of the wonderful privileges we have here. Instead of smiling and feeling fortunate for the good things, we point fingers and send tweets from iphones over nonsense. Outrage is the social currency of our time.
  • + 0
 Haha military bases and environmental destruction imposed all across the pacific and rights trampled everywhere for decades, countries want you out and wont leave and you corrupt local sovereign politics and complaining about China. GTFOH.
  • + 1
 @mikealive: hard times make hard men, hard men make easy times, easy times make soft men, soft men imvote hard times... the never ending cycle. Molecules just do that, regardless of levele of intelligence. Enjoy easy times. That’s all you can do. Cheers!
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: Just to illustrate your factory model further, here in the UK there is real concern as to how our farming community will cope with increased immigration limits through Brexit. For a long time industries such as fruit picking have massively relied on cheap labour from predominantly Eastern European countries. Anecdotally they do the work as the British are 'too lazy' and it doesn't pay well enough.
There are going to be other examples too, both skilled (our health service) and unskilled, but I felt you made agood point that I wanted to reinforced.

(Oh, and please nobody use this as an excuse to discuss Brexit - it's all already been said before whichever side you fall...)
  • + 1
 @slimboyjim: this was well illustrated in reality show of Mary Portas where she wanted to make Kinky Knickers, lingerie made in UK. She had issues with getting workforce. Not enough qualified workforce and very hard to get any workforce at all. The scheme was simple: youngsters knew that living off social welfare gave them enough money to survive, while working 8h every day was giving them just a bit more. It was putting a lump in my throat what some kids were saying, especially this on kid who said that it's about human decency to work, to be a role model for his kids living in impoverished nighborhood. But(!) It's not a rag on youngsters, hell no, they were the only ones who showed up. Where were the 40-60yr old experts on football, politics, general justice and morality? The f*cking wise old dogs from behind the panels of their couch tables? Too bad those old dogs feel like Rottweilers but are nothing more but old barking poodles.

Cesar Rojo said the same, his way of running UNNO is the only way. He is not able to find 3000 people in Catalunya and possibly anywhere in Europe to mass produce bikes.
  • + 34
 Thanks Obama.
  • + 1
 Thanks J. Edgar Hoover.
  • + 7
 Obama is flat!
  • + 0
 $150,000 challenge to Obamass half court street ball 21 ,,,what!
  • + 22
 I don’t think this will last that long, if it does we will all be riding Guerrilla Gravity bikes with Enve wheels. Doesn’t sound too bad.
  • + 16
 I wouldn't mind riding a GG bike with ENVE wheels! Just not at ENVE prices....
  • + 4
 My wallet cringes in anticipation.
  • + 11
 @hamncheez: I'd be happy with a GG Smash and We Are One wheels...
  • + 4
 We should all be riding Lenz bicycles, anyways! Also made in Colorado.
  • + 0
 @Lugers: @Lugers: Or Canyon, YT, BMC, Ghost, Pole, NukeProof, or any other European brand. As long as it isn't carbon.
  • + 0
 @Poulsbojohnny: The good carbon is made in Taiwan.
  • + 3
 @endlessblockades: I enve people who can buy those wheels.
  • + 18
 My nation just tweeted against that nation so the economy is about to do a 180 because that tweet recipient was upset. My leader tweeted to this leader so now we have to worry about another world war. This tweet will cost them 69 billion! I’ll show them!

The world has never felt more volatile, and it’s sad to be honest.
  • + 12
 Can't we all just live in peace and rip MTB's with eachother?
  • + 2
 No one is starting a world war with Canada calm down. Your 36.3 million
  • + 1
 @mkul7r4: Sounds good to me.
  • + 21
 I like to ride my bicycle sometimes...that's all I have to say.
  • + 6
 I like to afford my bicycle sometimes
  • + 1
 @mkul7r4: I love being broke all the time...
  • + 12
 china's economic rise began 3 decades ago when the USA granted "most favored nation" trading status. at this point in time, china will be fine without MFN status. as much as i hate TRUMP, i'm in favor of rolling some of it back. china is a bad actor in the field of industrial/military tech espionage.
  • + 1
 The US joined the IMF in approving the international floating of the Chinese currency years ago. This was to allow a massive US borrowing binge, but ignored the long tradition of IMF affiliated country’s requirement to hold massive amounts of gold in reserves to pin there currency value against.

Now this has all backfired, as the currency is heavily manipulated in order to wage industrial war against its manufacturing competitors.

Coincidentally, the flow on effect has also screwed the aspersions of a generation of youth (In free trade/non tariff operating countries like Australia). Buy allowing Chinese Government affiliates to buy domestic houses in foreign lands, with money still warm from the press (a form of international land banking/ currency cleaning). Thus creating massive house price inflation, and locking a local generation of youth out of home ownership.

Im not a Trump fan, but cheap “Free Trade” Chinese bikes for us Aussies has also unfortunately brought us unaffordable $1million average price houses. So who’s the real winner?
  • + 2
 @Sparkless: same story in NZ. Chinese not even living here buy house just to be able to resell it at higher price. House is empty, just waiting for the price to increase. Now the locals, the people who live here can't even afford one.
  • + 15
 Think I’ll skip the comment section on this one.
  • + 26
 You almost accomplished that, almost.
  • + 5
 @Boardlife69: Let me clarify:

Think I’ll skip reading the comment section on this one.
  • + 6
 @jeremiahwas: Strike 2....gotta protect now. Anything close - give it a ride.
  • + 2
 @jeremiahwas: Oh no! It happened again!
  • + 11
 Everyone loses in a trade war. But as soon as my beautiful job at the local coal mine comes back I’m buying a top of the line Pivot with carbon wheels. Want to support RC’s buddy Chris Cocalis. He’s really been struggling these past years selling ebikes and pushing standards nobody wants.

The bike industry has been screwing us for years. And Chris Cocalis has been leading that charge.

So my 3500$ “beginner bike” with garbage parts is now going to cost 4000$. Whatever. I like bikes. The government can take their pound of flesh too. It’s all a toy right. I’ll still have fun, just on a crappier bike that will be obsolete faster.
  • - 2
 How did they screw you? So many options and you can't find a bike you like?
  • + 5
 @likehell: do you think you are getting good value for your money when you spend 6 grand on a bike?
  • + 2
 @wibblywobbly: lol, downvote for a question haha, free spirit!

actually it depends on where you look, at Specialized 6000 gets you a mid level bike in my eyes, but if you look elewhere there is far better options..

With 6000 I would buy a 1500 roadbike, a 3500 Cube Stereo/Radon Swoop/Nukeproof and still have 1000 for spare parts, upgrades + some weeks vacation in my van Wink

6000+ usually ain't where you make a bargain, so you probably won't get the best value.. but then again it is a niche of a niche if you spend that much
  • + 8
 @likehell: don’t worry bro. I don’t believe in down voting.

Use to to be 6000$ got you top level suspension, top level parts and decent finishing bits. Now your 6000$ bike has all kinds of corners cut. Cheapo hubs, low level cassettes. Missing adjustments on suspension. The bike companies are nickel and dining us thinking we won’t notice. Look at a 6k Kona with NX cranks and base level brakes. Or an X01 transition for 6 grand with a GX cassette. Or look at the spec of a 5010 C. So many corners cut on it.

Death by a thousand cuts.
  • + 8
 They're leaving out the biggest piece of this discussion. The increase in tariff is based on cost price of the goods, not the sales price to customers. So the examples used are utterly garbage. They would have to tell us their actual costs on the frame in order for us to determine what the increase is. That will never happen. Cost of goods and market price is 2 different things. Displaying it as the same is just a way to explain that bikes are going to get more expensive and these companies will profit off the tariff increase by passing the full value of the tariff on the retail price. Bike industry wins again....
  • + 2
 Good point. And it is just more gouging by brands like Pivot to increase the cost of the bike based on the retail price vs their cost.
  • + 0
 haha if they don't pass the increase you will say, look they make so much profit, they don't even care about 10% increased prices Wink
  • + 10
 Que discussion of complex issues by people light years from being capable of even understanding the issues at a basic level in the first place, lol.
  • + 4
 I hesitate to pay this but here's another relevant take: foreignpolicy.com/2018/08/08/china-is-cheating-at-a-rigged-game

Tl;dr: hate the game, don't have the player.
  • + 2
 I'd like to see Pinkbike require commenters to use their real name. That seems to cut down on the majority of the negativity other places.
  • + 0
 @Lugers: That won't work but it would be good to see who Likes and Dislikes comments. There are a lot of uncool low key racist rightwing MTBRs apparently.
  • + 3
 @Lugers: Ever been on facebook? Probably one of the most toxic social media.
  • + 1
 @PLC07: But not many real names, lots of fake profiles..
  • + 1
 @likehell: Just like in a US election. Faked.
  • + 1
 @gonzoracing: they have elections?
  • + 7
 I don't like tariffs and support 'true' free trade. That said, I don't see the collective losing their minds and bashing one or a group of EU leaders for doing way more to manage China:. ""European Union countries levy astounding anti-dumping and import tariffs against China and neighboring Asian manufacturers, yet somehow, European bike brands are surviving quite well. Flawed though it may be, the US economy is robust. History suggests that it won't take too long to get this tariff thing sorted. - RC""
  • + 6
 I am pro free trade and think trumps tactics are horrible. That said chinese goods are frequently cheap because of lax worker and environmental protections. When I can get USA made good that are competitive performance and price wise and support people who give a damn about our sport why wouldn't I? Currently I have 3 sets on MUSA (ON3P and PM Gear) skis and hope my next bike will be from Guerilla Gravity with MRP suspension. What other parts can I get made in usa? Bikes and skis are luxury toys and I want to support people who care.
  • + 5
 T: "I will lower taxes."
T: Imposes tariffs on foreign goods which the government will see about $450 Billion a year from tariff fees and more from increased pre-tax cost of goods from consumes.
Me: Ah...I see what you did there.
  • + 5
 China is about to have a heap of debt trouble, they have 1.75 trillion US in bonds maturing by 2020, and the US is in so much debt trouble that if the general public knew the truth there would be riots. Neither side can afford this, trade wars either lead up to a full on hot war, or they fizzle out quickly, lets hope this is a fizzler!
  • + 5
 Trumps economic plans are simple answers to complex problems (just like Brexit)

The world is far more interconnected than it was even 20 years ago, trying to turn back the clock to older economic models is just pissing in the wind (just like Brexit)

His domestic economic policy seems no smarter, tax cuts without raising public services (infact the opposite) are foolhardy in the extreme, & jobs growth is great (although at the exact same trajectory as it was under Obama) BUT the deficit is soaring, with extra tax cuts this is a timebomb for America.

His tarifs have already raised the price of domestic steel & aluminium.

While there may be a short term boost to American manufacturers, long term this model is unsustainable.

Chinese manufactruers are going nowhere but Trumps moves could easily see American ones pushed out of business.
  • + 5
 The Bike Industry could probably solve the issue of people not buying new bikes due to increased prices caused by a US-China trade war with one simple move.........add and market a new wheel size that we all "must" ride due to its superiority!!!
  • + 7
 This is all a diversion. We are boiling our planet beyond the point of no return. Trade wars mean nothing by comparison. Are you the next lobster in the pot?
  • + 4
 Hey, im from heart of Europe, so we have almost 40% tax higher, than US? what a heck? im not from rich Germany or Swiss, and still we are pretty strong biking comunity, shure, almost no one have carbon rims, but....
Muricans? What about u whining for?? You are richest country of the West and this is the problem for you?? (for comparison, im working like industry engineer, making 3D models, R+D, and i have salary like Canadian cleaning lady!! so keep Calm!)
  • + 1
 You might have to spend some time in Switzerland or Germany I think.
  • + 7
 I saw the title, grabbed my popcorn and immediately scrolled down to the comment section!
  • + 5
 O no politics on Pinkbike, the one place I could go to get always from the news feed, Christ, the manufacturers will live and there will still be bikes in the future with or without the tariffs
  • + 4
 I like how not one company throws out the alternative which is lower the cost of the bikes to balance it for the consumer. These bikes really aren't worth the price tags anyway. Right as soon as you buy a brand new bike doesn't even have to be ridden but you lose a good portion of value just walking out the door with it. Bicycle companies like are gonna make money either way. It probably doesnt cost much more then a thousand dollars to build a complete top of the line bike then they charge 10× more for it. Its all about greed of that all mighty dollar!!!
  • + 7
 Hmmmm, come have a look at the parking lot at a bicycle companies office. No Ferraris or Mclarens, but there are lots of old beat up Toyotas. Lots of Sram GX or Ultegra in the bike room too...Not sure who is getting rich in the bike industry. Maybe you could name some names?
If people weren't driven by saving money everywhere on a new bike maybe we'd see something manufactured in North America still. Although Devinci seems to be making it work with their alloy bikes, kudos to them.
The value of a used bike is driven by the used bike market. Its not the bike manufacturer's fault that the value of a bicycle drops after it is used. A bike is something that wears and has a finite lifespan.
  • + 2
 This is what I want to know: if bikes are getting more expensive, and margins are getting way tighter for bike companies, where's the money going? I'm not convinced it's greed/price gouging, as you've suggested. Competition would cut through that pretty quick.

Has the price of manufacturing frames gone up? Why? Or has the price of components going up? Bike companies are struggling...is SRAM struggling? Has the industry just been reshuffled so that the big component manufacturers are now reaping most of the profits, at the expense of the LBS and frame makers? Or is it just way way more expensive to make a GX cassette than a 10 speed Shimano cassette?

Or are the prices going up to pay for marketing?
  • + 3
 @WheelNut: Yup! Our parking lot is full of a bunch of beat up Toyota's too. It is a passion-based industry a lot of the industry is not bringing in boatloads of money, a lot of companies are just trying to get by especially at home manufactures.
  • + 1
 @WheelNut: Chris Cocalis
  • + 1
 @skylerd: I think prices in bikes (in part) have gone up because people focused on selling more high end bikes than they used to, say 50 5000$ bikes per year verses 150 2200$ for a shop not a factory. (Made up math for example)
  • + 2
 @WheelNut: Toyota because Toyota. Its cool to drive a beat up old SR5 or 4Runner. I don't know why and I don't know why the command the hilarious price tags they get. You could buy a sweet new ride for the price of these 200k mile rattle traps.
  • + 1
 double..
  • + 1
 @WheelNut: check what the ceo of giant drives I bet its not a beat up toyota!!!
  • + 1
 @skylerd: So many of these discussion assume that things are more expensive without actually checking costs. Go back 20 years and check prices on a few key items (eg. Ritchey Z-Max foldable, Rock Shox Judy SL, Colnago C40 frame) and compare the prices to similar products today. You'll be surprised that for approximately the same money you can get way better product at a time when inflation and cost of living is way higher.
  • + 1
 @solephaedrus: bike parts have certainly gotten better over the years but, for example, open up a Specialized catalog from 2007 and see what 5000$ got you back then compared to now.

5000$ back then got you something one step below an S-Works. It had top tier parts and needed nothing. Now 5000$ gets you a mix of GX and NX (the equivalent level of X7 or X5 back then) Yea, it’s a better bike and has a dropper on it, but in the hierarchy of bikes, the 5000$ bike is one step above beginner level whereas 10 years ago it was near the top.
  • + 3
 These companies with move to another exploitative country and/or pass the cost to the consumer--it's standard business practice in this global economy. Inflation will set in and the very people that this policy was sold to protect is exactly who it will target.
  • + 3
 As if American made automatically exudes quality. Whats with this belief that chinese made means bad quality. That's not true there are a lot of good quality Chinese products and yesthere are also bad ones too. Take it on a case by case basis instead of putting a blanket statement on everything borne out of a false sense of nationalism.
  • + 1
 There was an episode of Top Gear where Clarkson was critiquing the quality craftsmanship of a Ford truck. That could've been the definitive assessment of "American craftsmanship."

I like my French-designed and Chinese-made bike.
  • + 3
 @RichardCunningham, you are taking EU's anti-dumping tariffs as reference, but you leave out one big aspect of it: In the EU, basically every EU company can find a way to get around those tariffs, in a legal way. It is a lot of paperwork, but you assemble bikes - you can get an exception; you import less than 300 frames per month - you can get an exception; it is for private use - you get an exception etc. So what it did is create a lot of paperwork, and it made it harder for small shops to build custom bikes based on China-made frames, so it drove the shift to complete bikes. But it is really not comparable to a tariff without exceptions, because in reality, almost no-one is paying those anti-dumping tariffs.
  • + 3
 This thread is full of more mindless ill-informed shit than I think I've possibly seen in the past decade combined. Do some of you idiots not realize that costs eventually come down as things are built in a home country? Not to mention it creates home-grown jobs? Not everything the media portrays to the sheep is true.
  • + 1
 Sounds pretty easy! But, won't there be a lot fewer of us here in the states who can afford a bicycle when considering China's retaliatory tariffs? I guess we buy more of their stuff, so it should work in the USA's favor?
Sorry, but maybe I am the idiot you referenced.
  • - 1
 Yes tell us how all this works and you have it figured out. You @yourworstnightmare, you know it will work because there's a nice long history of tariffs resulting in these outcomes and a clear and resounding majority of economist agree that tariffs are good and lead to good things for economies.

Tell me how many of Alex Jones's urbal supplements do you pop before you go down the 4chan rabbit hole to plumb the depths for your special super secret not reported by the media? Where you are super special cuz you know stuff the sheep don't know.
  • + 3
 If you like to work for 1 USD per hour (like a chinese worker), then you could be right
  • + 1
 Maybe 200 years ago... and maybe in 200 years time! Suddenly your homegrown industry is going to start producing everything, raw materials, paint, masking tape, disposable gloves, acid for anodizing, plastic and paper packaging, welding rods, gas cyclinders, sniffers etc. ad naseaum. You'll starve before you realise all the things you need.
  • + 3
 It's hilarious that these guys talk about "eroding profit margins" when the cost of everything cycling related continues to increase. What a load of BS. Cry me a river spin doctors.

Want to increase profits? SIMPLE. Reduce your MSRP so that more people buy your products. You know, volume sales...
  • + 1
 Costco.
  • + 2
 so you would buy an 8000 Dollar bike if it was 7000 Dollars?

Do you complain about a Shirt that costs maybe 2 USD in production costs 35 USD retail?
But you complain about a bike that costs 2000 USD in production, then gets sold for 2300 USD to a dealer and 3000 USD to you..

These numbers are totally made up, but a 5000 USD retail bike will never cost 1000 USD in production.
  • + 1
 Business isn't about profit, it is about VALUE.

Fine, reduce prices to sell more volume. You first have to sufficiently increase volume merely to make the same level of profit you were before. You now need to sell even more volume to make more profit. What is the ideal relationship between volume and price that maximises profit? Chances are, they've figured that out and that price is exactly what you see.

The bigger problem though is value and capital. It takes a certain amount of capital to produce a unit of output, in this case a bike. So if you increase volume, you need more capital to produce it. Capital has a cost. So, per above, if you push more volume to make the same amount of profit you were making before, you REDUCE VALUE. Even when you start producing more profit, it is not until you produce sufficiently more profit to cover your cost of capital that you could increase value and your proposition would make sense.

So, not so simple. I bet you they have put much more thought and effort into this.
  • + 1
 @Ktron: you mean ROIC, return on invested capital
  • + 1
 @Travel66: nope, I mean cost of capital or WACC. ROIC is what you actually generate, which is distict from its cost.

If ROIC is greater than WACC you will create value, and if lower destroy it.

In the above example the equation is likely unsolvable, in that if reducing prices to increase volume fails to sufficiently grow profits, you will keep doubling down, requiring more and more capital and destroying more and more value. Hence why his proposition doesn't occur in reality.
  • + 7
 Im willing to spend more to bring USA manufacturing back.
  • + 3
 This is a good question for Pinkbike to ask: Just how much more are Americans willing to pay for a stateside-made bike product? My bike is around $3k. I think I'm willing to part with another $500 more, so that's around 17% extra. $5k bikes become $5,850, $7k becomes $8,190.

Actually, I think my math is faulty. The frame might be US made, but the rest of the componentry won't be. My head is hurting.
  • + 6
 honestly, if a MIUSA bike company came around today that just picked a modern geo, paid for the carbon layups and then decided to stick with that design for 10 years, they could bring the cost of carbon frames waaaay down to cheaper than aluminum. i know we all want that new new design, but i think frame geo is finally settling. it might be time to stop tweaking it for a bit in the name of economies of scale
  • + 3
 So, socialism?
  • + 1
 @Kmccann137: Why? The corporations gave you the shaft when they shifted the vast majority of their manufacturing over seas, and now you want to bend over and take the shaft to bring them back?

LoL
  • + 2
 @m1dg3t: This. Manufacturing is overseas where it is cheaper, yet prices are outrageous. Something smells...
  • + 7
 Pinkbike just rang the “y’all come and get it” to the politi-trolls
  • + 3
 "Washington's latest escalation of this country's tit-for-tat trade war was reportedly in retaliation to Beijing's campaign to use any means (legal or otherwise) to acquire sensitive information from US corporate and military sources in exchange for in-country manufacturing"

Well that's an "interesting" take on a complex subject. Popcorn popped
  • + 2
 Would be interested in your take Lee.
  • + 4
 @brianpark: my take is technology and IP-focused. Others already captured that well in the other thread. This article is about physical hard goods.

RC did well to limit comments and let industry in the trenches speak to the point that everyone loses in a trade war.
  • + 1
 @leelau: So with that take do you not believe that China will “By any means legal or otherwise take intellectual property or military secrets?
  • + 2
 @loganflores: with respect to IP absolutely. Infringing IP is a Chinese national sport.

Other than cryptography I can't speak to military technology as that's outside my expertise. You'll appreciate that most people in that field won't talk about it.

Anyhow there are many catalysts for this latest escalation of the trade war. IP and milsec trade secrets theft is a small part of it
  • + 2
 All problems can be great catalysts for innovation and this is one of them for the manufacturing side. You'll see some companies survive, some die and some thrive based on their ability to react and adjust. The demand for highend bicycles isn't going away because MTBing is a growing sport. I'd like to see Ibis really push the envelop and figure out how to do it in USA. There are a LOT of R&D benefits to having in-house manufacturing and prototyping.
  • + 1
 "All problems can be great catalysts for innovation" Perhaps, but problems you create fall under the broken window fallacy. Do you want the industry to spend the next 10 years and end up with the same bike for the same price as today? Or would you rather bike brands spend their time making better, stronger, lighter and yes...cheaper bikes?
  • + 2
 @Sardine: check back in ten years let’s see how much lighter and cheaper bikes are then.
  • + 4
 Some thorough analysis here...if you read this mountain biking website then you are more informed on the issues of tariffs and trade wars than POTUS!
  • + 17
 Totally. I mean look at how our economy is tanking. And look how high unemployment is. And look at how low our GDP is. Oh wait......
  • + 0
 @Timroo1: Merely the result of further fiscal stimulus added to an already growing economy. It ain't rocket surgery. Bush #43 did the same thing.
  • + 3
 @kabanosipyvo: But it is not all doom like so many people want you to believe though. Furthermore, many "experts" predicted and economic tanking.
  • + 0
 @kabanosipyvo: but I am impressed that you can take all the intricacies of an economy and make the solution seem so simple.
  • - 1
 @Timroo1: I actually DO agree that the economy is fundamentally sound at the moment, but I couldn't help thinking of this:

www.politico.com/cartoons/2018/08/02/matt-wuerker-cartoons-august-2018-000069
  • + 0
 @Timroo1: Oops, that didn't paste correctly...I was referring to the one with drunk Uncle Sam.
  • + 1
 @Timroo1: @Timroo1: And look at how recently you have come to minutes of stopping paying your critical government staff and military while pushing through Govt debt ceiling after ceilings. Its built on sand mate and you have had the currency printing presses running for neigh on a decade now.
  • + 3
 Domestic frame manufacturing is one of the reasons i chose an alloy framed Devinci for my new bike, oh and #longlivechainsaw! And long live Canada, will u allow me to live there please?
  • + 3
 Since the US has proposed a 10% tariff, China has devalued their currency 8%. In essence, in the time that US tariffs have been proposed China has applied tariffs to the world to the tune of 8%.
  • + 2
 So if trade improves because of renegotiating, will we see prices decrease? So quick to raise prices, but never an article about potential trade leading to lower prices. Got a pretty good EU deal in the works, but no discussion on consumer benefits?
  • + 1
 Absolute BS. Cars are an excellent analogy here. Since global and free trade, competition and freedom to invest in manufacturing, cars relatively in the US and Aust, Canada and Europe have significantly significantly decreased relative to income. Absolute, no questions asked. You know it, while options have significantly increased. Where those cars are made is where there is natural advantage. Now the reciepients of that benefit deride the loss of industry and jobs because wages made it uncompetitive. So drop wages expectations, currency balance to offset the purchasing benefit......no, whine about it while continuing to purchase OS made. All countries spy for commercial reasons, we in AUD have a case at present where we spied with our internal agency against a third world country in negotiating royalties and rights for oil and gas. The US has spied and coerced sovereign countries, meddled in politics for years for benefit and to maintain their view of world order. Then act all feigned surprise when undertaken against itself, because it don't like the fact it is not the world superpower it once was. I bought a bike in 1996 second hand full optioned race Foes for $6k. In relative terms today that is well north of anything comparable, if I had the same relative money today the value and options would be far greater, I as consumer would benefit through value and choice. That's free trade and deregulation. The US is doing nothing mkore than unwinding that benefit, and constricting my choice and value. The US is imposing restrictions on its own citizens. End story.
  • + 4
 As far as I have checked, the new EU tarriff is over ebikes, not all bikes:

electrek.co/2018/07/20/europe-e-bike-china-dumping-tariffs
  • + 2
 The motivation for this is all summed up in the conclusion of the article. The tariffs will generate 450 billion dollars of additional tax revenue annually. Which will be paid first by corporations and then passed onto the consumer. The average consumer won’t see it for the tax it is. “No new taxes!” This will be used to offset the 1.5 trillion dollar deficit created by the Republican tax cuts just signed into law. Those tax cuts only benefit those in the top income tier of our society. It’s just a very creative marketing way to fleece the general public and make them believe that the tariffs are there to bring back blue collar jobs. A clever way to appeal to the Trumpian base and simultaneously enrich the oligarchs in our society. Very clever.
  • + 1
 But it won't be 450 billion dollars of additional tax revenue since China has vowed to match US tariffs dollar for dollar. So, it'll be, more or less, a net wash since while the US will be taxing more, they will also be paying more. Like you say, this benefits only top tier income brackets in the US while many things, including bikes, will become more expensive for consumers.
  • + 2
 The entire history of trade is such that those who can produce with natural economic advantages win as long as those real advantages last. Those who can't, don't. You can carp and moan about Chinese labor and environmental advantages all you want, but none of that gets anyone any closer to a cheaper and better domestically produced product.

The truth is you don't want to pay the full cost (not price). You WONT pay the full cost of domestically produced bikes. So I guess it's nut up and accept reality or start welding/molding your own.
  • + 2
 Is it too late to ask members of the industry if anyone is looking at this trade war as a temporary set-back. 2020 is coming up soon, and it would surprise me if the next administration would do anything other than rescind the recent tariffs. Is the impact to one or two model years worth looking at shifting operations?
  • + 17
 I wish I had your confidence that Trump won't get a 2nd term
  • + 2
 Stranger things have happened.
  • + 3
 Looking at the electoral college map and the Democratic options for a potential candidate, its most likely that Trump will be re-elected.

Only two presidents have lost re-election since WWII, Jimmy Carter, who lost to Regan, one of the most adept and skillful politicians that the world had ever seen, and the first Bush who lost because billionaire Ross Perot spent a billion $$ of his own money to spoil that election.
  • + 2
 @metaam:
For once I share your sentiment on this but I still won’t upvote you cause you really butthurt me the other day on another topic
  • + 0
 @metaam:

Oh shiate, I’ve just sunk to Donald I don’t give a ducks twittering level ;-d
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: Ross Perot was hilarious! "I'm all ears" I'm surprised you misspelled Bonzo's name, so I'll torment you by saying that your next president will be Kamala Harris!!! muauauauauahahaha DV Time!
  • + 6
 So, are we saying no more dollar stores?
  • + 1
 Did anyone here read the second sentence of the article?
“Washington's latest escalation of this country's tit-for-tat trade war with the world's largest Walmart was reportedly in retaliation to Beijing's campaign to use any means (legal or otherwise) to acquire sensitive information from US corporate and military sources in exchange for domestic manufacturing. ”

If This is in fact the case then we should all be demanding that brands find alternative places to manufacture. it’s like paying the kid in the schoolyard that stole everyones lunch money to do your homework for you. You would be like screw that!

As for european brands, many do have some sort of fabrication or assembly within the EU, build in Taiwan or in SE Asia.
  • + 3
 S&M and Foes are made in the US. They are some of the best and cheaper than a lot of the China built bikes. How do they do it?
  • + 4
 Definitely not cheaper. I've had a Foes and a few S&M bikes, and both represent the extremely boutique part of the market, especially considering the Foes are still alloy.

The Chinese bikes that cost more are either massively more advanced or just flat out using more expensive materials.

That said, both companies offer something that most do not, and both are worth the asking price.
  • + 4
 And Guerrilla Gravity!
  • + 1
 I never knew about EU's anti-dumping taxes and it surprises me that we have bikes that cost the same or even less than in the US (msrp here has local government tax already in it). I also started to question the intention of Trumps tax raising on Chinese goods and also steel and aluminum. Where will they get metals or computer chips etc.?
  • + 1
 Actually some good discussions here from both sides, good job on civility for the most part everyone!

I think the europoor tariffs already of 48% show the sky may not fall. Maybe the only thing that we are at risk of is not being able to own 5 new bikes, or trade up every season.

The environment may not mind that?

Some cool bikes can be had for cheap on your local classifieds, and learning to rebuild them can give you something to do in the offseason.
  • + 1
 Here are some other pieces of the puzzle, from someone who is not a financial guru;
Imported items tariff increases. Where does that money go? USA Bank Account
Additional import tariff cost is carried over to the consumer. Where does the percentage increase of sales tax go? State bank account.
Additional costs to consumer. Where does that money come from? Good question at the moment.
On the longer term
The USA states theoretically have more money due to higher sales taxes and then theoretically offer incentives or loans for manufacturing (maybe) to start up within their states. Manufacturing and sales of these goods generates taxes. Where do these taxes go? The state and USA Bank Accounts.
Where are the skilled and unskilled workers going to come from and while everything gets more expensive, when will stagnated wages go up?
  • + 3
 Welding and machining schools across the northwest have wait lists a year long to learn these kinds of trades the workers are here. Especially if we encourage young people to take an inexpensive two year trade school edg over a 4 year political science degree with student loans.
  • + 1
 This is pretty dumb. There are a lot of companies producing in Europe and North America that are competitive with Chinese and other Asian pricing. Hope, Enve, We Are One, Guerilla Gravity, MRP, Cane Creek, Industry Nine, etc... (do not know if there supply chain is suspect). This ain’t just happening in biking. It’s happening across the board and the tariffs are only helping. I work in manufacturing and we have seen similar trends of products that were sent offshore are now looking to come back. Sure labor is cheaper, but you need more than cheap labor to make product people want to buy. All the people in here that aren’t seeing these things everyday are just speculting based on what the bias media force feeds them.
  • + 3
 There's a lot of silver lining though, for domestic manufacturing if you say, ever wanted to start a bike company and keep it all local.
  • + 6
 Did you read the piece?
  • + 5
 Not if you want to make your bike out of metal or carbon fiber.
  • + 17
 @hamncheez: We're gonna make bikes out of coal. Beautiful clean coal. We are opening new factories every day. Believe me.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: seriously correct me if I’m wrong but if we are buying aluminum from China because it’s cheap in stead of Canada than wouldn’t it make sense to start buying Canadian instead since the price is probably close now with a 25% hike and all the brownie points. Also we should stop sending so much of our scrap abroad to smelt in China then they wouldn’t
have such a monopoly.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: That's what I've been looking into, how many companies produce tubesets in US for bicycles from US raw materials. Our country does not have all the necessary raw materials to produce everything we consume. It's an interesting time were in right now.
  • + 1
 @shlotch: Coal...carbon...same difference. LOL!!!
  • + 1
 Interesting when you see that the $21 Trillion US debt, $1.8 Trillion is owned by China. From reading, the main reason that China has not called in that debt was to keep its exports affordable in the US market. But if that is not the case, what is stopping China from calling in that debt. Be interesting to see what happens in the next in this Trade war.
  • + 1
 The funniest bit for me here is that I can feel through the text on the screen how excited @RichardCunningham was when writing this Big Grin Other than that, huh, US has always had it cheap as hell for most bike parts, I remember 2003-2008 salivating at the pricing on pricepoint or jenson. I'd love to pay as little for Maxxis tyres or Fox forks as you folks do. Sorry, hard to feel for you especially when most "bikes are too expensive" voices on PB come from over US and Canada.
  • + 1
 Well said!!
  • + 1
 Maybe EU will have advantages of this politics...

Noboby in Eu will buy an american (chinese made) product if is more expensive than now...

Example? 4200 euro for a Yeti frame in Italy... think about a 1000 euro more... hahahahaha is made of gold????

So USA must open a EU location (where the costs are lower) to built bikes... like many car manufacturers do... so no jobs advantages for USA... bingo!
  • + 1
 I work every day with manufacturing companies in the US. And you know what? Not one needs to create more jobs. In fact they can't fill the jobs they have because Americans don't want those jobs!!!!! They literally have people just stand-up and walk away in the middle of a shift.
  • + 4
 Plenty of Canadian and USA bike products. Try to make a concerted effort to buy local. Same with food clothing ect.
  • + 1
 Unfortunately, the increase in labor cost alone with moving manufacturing to the US would increase bike prices astronomically. The only way to mitigate that at all is with automation and that doesn't help Joe blue-collar any more than when the manufacturing was overseas...all Joe sees is increasing prices and will ultimately move to other, cheaper brands. Trump can try to bully the manufacturing industries to move more facilities here, but all he will achieve is forcing them to move to another cheap labor market that is not China.
  • + 1
 Not true. Guerilla Gravity makes frames in the US, by hand, for extremely competitive prices.

The 'US labor prices are too high" is a wonderful NPR take from people who don't work in manufacturing. Get a skilled welder or two, and a properly thought out jigged assembly line and you can compete with anywhere, because labor becomes a small fraction of your overall costs, and skilled labor has a way of paying for itself with factory floor improvements and innovations.

That the bike industry still sucks at doing that doesn't mean it's not possible, it just means all the people who know how to do it go make a lot more money somewhere else.
  • + 1
 Someone has to build the robots for automation, install said robots, program and maintain them correct ? If anything it may help Joe Blue move into a new field of work that will teach him or her new skills to survive in this manufacturing world.
  • + 1
 @tsheep: Hand made is great on a local scale, but companies like Intense or Specialised that compete on the global market could not feasibly move manufacturing operations to, or back to, the US without incurring a massive increase in labor cost. Guerilla Gravity could never manufacture the same volume of bikes as Specialised and maintain their current prices with US-based manufacturing. As for people who don't work in manufacturing, you're barking up the wrong tree, I worked in a steel plant for 5 years writing data collection software and maintaining line computers. You'd be surprised at how many people and how much technology it takes to make just steel pipe in any volume, much less complex shapes like bike frames.
  • + 2
 @MikeGruhler: Process automation, industrial instrumentation, robots and their programming are typically more white collar jobs that requires years of expensive schooling. This is more than simple retooling and not a feasible option for many. I'll give you installation and maintenance though. Automation doesn't help Joe Blue line worker much more than having the operation overseas. Their job is replaced by either robots or cheap foreign labor.

They need to retool and need new avenues for their skills, but for the government to try and force the global market like this and getting in to a pissing match with their largest trading partners (China, Canada, Mexico), can only cause more harm than good. They might be able to bully Canada and Mexico, to an extent, but to think they can bully China is just arrogant and stupid.
  • + 2
 @samael:
Well, since they don't actually do any manufacturing themselves, yes their labor costs for manufacturing would indeed increase.

But your assertion that is is not feasible to move operations back to the US is absurd. If GG is competitive at a botique level, why on earth would you think that scaling up operations somehow leads to a per-unit cost growth? That is not how scaled manufacturing works.

Arrogance and stupidity is assuming the status quo is desirable or sustainable from both an environmental and financial standpoint. Why is manufacturing in east asia cheap? Because there's no safety or environmental rules.

Want to stop runaway greenhouse gasses? Stop buying cheap crap from countries that dump waste straight into the river and, despite a nice PR campaign, generate the majority of their power by burning coal.
  • + 0
 @tsheep: I'm not saying it's ideal, but these companies are generally publicly owned and have to do what their shareholders say and that will typically be what makes them the most money. Moving operations to the US and doing their own manufacturing will not improve profit margins. Shareholders are concerned about the profit margin, with moving operations to US, the only way to protect that profit margin is to pass it on to the consumer. I'm sure Donald Trump has pollution and runaway greenhouse gasses in mind. LOL
  • + 1
 @samael:
The two biggest US based bike companies, Trek and Specialized, are both privately owned, try again.

Also, "WAAAA drumpf didn't have emissions in mind when he got into a trade fight, it's only a side effect of onshoring manufacturing!" Is the fact that it's Trump such a big obstacle to you that you want to continue to screw the environment harder just to score political points in a country you don't apparently live in? lol. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
  • + 1
 @tsheep: I said, "generally", and I admit I didn't look that closely since most large companies are public...so my bad. Doesn't really change the dynamics though, rather than share-holders, they have to answer to a board of directors...6 of 1... I never said I was opposed to on-shoring, or that I agree with them off-shoring, where did I say that? I also never said that I wasn't willing to pay more, only pointing out the obvious, that if companies on-shore their manufacturing, it will cost more and that cost will be passed to the consumers, so, typically companies look for the cheapest options. Off-shoring makes sense from a business perspective. You're putting words in my mouth. Manufacturing always comes at a cost of pollution and while China is worse, to be sure, on-shoring it in the US will increase pollution on this side of the pond as well. Just to be sure, you do know that the US and Canada share the largest boarder in the world right? There's not some magic barrier that keeps all our pollution out the US and vice versa. An increase in pollution there affects us as well.

I may not be American, but I'm also not an idiot and realise, decisions made by major trade partners, like the US, or even the EU tend to affect Canada, so I make it a habit to stay informed when it comes to things such as trade and copyright. I don't have a political point of view, I don't care who's in power as I consider all politicians to be inherently corrupt, and am not trying to score brownie points anywhere. I care about trade and copyright and tend follow those topics closely. I used to actually buy lots from the US, but much of what Trump is proposing and doing makes makes less and less feasible and that hurts American retailers, not me. I buy way more local or from CRC than I do from Jensen or Pricepoint now.
  • + 1
 @samael:
You keep repeating the same point that on-shoring manufacturing will increase costs and makes sense from a business perspective. As is pointed out in the interview and many times in these comments, there is at least one company that proves that is not necessarily the case. My American made aluminum GG frame cost me less than my imported Yeti aluminum frame (back when Yeti still made aluminum bikes), despite both being Colorado companies located a few miles from each other.

So no, this trade snafu does not have to hurt bike companies, only those who fail to adapt. That's the nature of business.

Happily, as a side effect, it will likely be much better for the environment.
  • + 1
 @tsheep: Yup, and with Yeti, you're paying a "name" premium too. Was the same with Intense before they changed their business model.

Scale does matter though. GG is a small outfit that produces high end products in relatively limited numbers, being hand made, maybe a couple thousand a year. Specialised is one of the largest bike manufacturers in the world making bikes in all ranges and disciples from garbage bikes to ultra high end. They probably manufactures 100s of thousands of bikes per year, maybe millions. Giant's factory in Taiwan, which Trek uses, cranks out over 6 million bikes a year. Creating that kind of operation in the US would incur massive costs. It can't really be compared to the type of operation GG runs, it just doesn't scale. I'm not saying it can't be done and remain profitable, but profit margins would surely shrink, something large corporations typically frown upon. Now whether the tariffs or creating operations on US soil is more expensive is something only they can tell. My gut says they will leave it in China an raise the cost to match the tariff, which will ultimately be good for smaller companies, like GG, with the exception of the tariff Trump has placed on raw materials...that one will affect GG.

One thing that is for sure, bike manufacturers using Chinese plant are all likely looking at their options and Giant is probably considering a plant expansion. Smile

Disclaimer: I haven't confirmed Specialised uses Chinese plants. I only picked them as an example of a large well known maker. They could be using Giant's plant in Taiwan, like Trek, and would be less affected.
  • + 1
 @samael:
How can you work in manufacturing and not know how economies of scale work?

You keep saying that scale decreases margins which implies higher per-unit costs. This flies in the face of literally every industrial advancement since production lines became a thing. There is nothing mysterious or artisan about building a bike frame, it's a consumer good. It absolutely scales, and scales extremely well.
  • + 1
 What happen when prices on steel,aluminum,carbon or taxes go down? I dont see any savings translated to the customers, if China is such a treat to USA, the government should focus more in countries near by, like Mexico,Central and South America with no socialist governments, installing free zones, where Americans companies manufacture their products with their own raw material or maybe even local materials,boosting local economy creatings DECENT jobs, preventing at the samen time more emigration from those countries to USA.
  • + 5
 I’m just here for the comments.
  • + 2
 Same ‘ere!
Wouldn’t miss it for the end if the world.





Oh...
  • + 1
 Stimulating stuff, ain't it? Cram jam full of white fragility.
  • + 1
 **note, not everyone is acting childish on this site, but....

So how is everyone doing? Are all you with your a*shole self-righteous, smug "my point of view is better than your point of view" and "my country is better than yours" Feeling better about yourselves now? I am talking to ALL the Americans, the Canadas, Brits, French etc. pissing on everyone eles for a tit-for-tat volley here. Anyone change their mind because they got burned?

Is China somehow a victim and purely innocent in all this? Should all Americans be stereotyped because is XYZ politician or XYZ Pinkbiker comments? 330+ million of us just as a reminder. Is Canda somehow better than the US becase their tariffs are different than ours or some smug dick points out a few negative points? Is pissing on Canada, Europe making the Americans feel like they are 'the man' in a burn contest? Is Europe somehow a perfect utopia and their approach to trade, trade barriers and tax a panacea the best fit for everyone regardless of opinion? Is the US better because we have either a Dem/Repub president and all that didn't vote for said Dem/Repub president or agree with their approach inferior? Is calling all whites bigots or all those who voted for Obama commies making everyone feel good about themselves? I am sure I missed some mud slinging points here.

Aren't we all here on this site for a common interested? Bikes!!! Don't we come here to escape all the 'real world' BS and somehow discuss those things that do come into our spectrum in a rational way and NOT fall into the same polarizing 'Us vs Them' circus the media (from all political perspectives) wants to trick us into? Do you feel like talking shit like a bunch of F***king school yard kids someone makes 'your' country better? Hoe far did we get in our discussions on an adult level? OR did you just come in to win a pissing contest? Anyone opinions change due to the drama?

EVERY country has issues. EVERY country has positives. Great politicians on both sides of the spectrum as well as loser scum politicians on both as well...regardless of a border of which side of the oceans you live on.

Some of us on the page need to grow the F**k up and calm down. Go ride your bikes!! 135, 142, 148, 157 rear hubs, 26", 27.6", 29" wheels, who cares?? We are 'adults' who ride expensive toys in mostly first world countries in the woods/mountains. Appreciate that for what it is and celebrate our (Pinkbike's worldwide audience) common MTB interests DESPITE all of our 'real world' differences and situations. THAT is what we are here for.
  • + 2
 As a note for above, my point isn't about constructive back and forth, it's about the venomous put downs, assumptions and 'F you' type of remarks. I will see you guys at the bottom of downvotes for my remarks I am sure. Big Grin
  • + 1
 Lots of cogent points being made on both sides of this argument, from people across the globe. If only all comment threads were like PB. I wish someone could have gotten a hold of worksman cycles. They survived the american bicycle manufacturing flight - would be interesting to hear their thoughts.
  • + 1
 They already have our info if they want it they'll get it just as they very well put it. Don't mess with the giant and if they're willing to allow us in house manufacturing then just give them the information they'll already get their hands on. So why make an issue out of something - almost seems like they're just trying to throw a bone for a simple exchange that would meet our demands on the homefront.
  • + 1
 China manipulates their currency's value, maintains lower environmental and health standards, and has less workers rights compared to the EU and US/Canada.

Unless everyone decides to veto Chinas choices with their wallet to push them to join the modern world, then political trade wars are what we are left with. I'm all for open markets but it only works well if we all live by the same rules. I'm against the one world government idea but in this case it would make good sense.
  • + 1
 How does this affect Canadians? Because a bike frame is made in China, and goes to the US, do those tarrifs get passed on to us, or are we not subject to those? Or do those tariffs get stamped at the boarder, and then again if the bike is shipped to canada?
My last new bike was a Canfield Balance. And because it was made in Taiwan, and not part of NAFTA, I had to pay $600 duty (tarrifs). I will be curious, and this had the potential to affect my next bike purchase (test riding a Rocky Mountain this weekend!)
  • + 1
 It sure will affect you if you buy from the US.. unless you buy from a canadian bike company that gets their parts directly from Asia (or from a US manufactured, US sourced frame with parts from Taiwan).
  • + 5
 How you doin'?
  • + 3
 just fine
  • + 1
 do u knoe da wae?
  • + 1
 This is going to affect the cheaters the least. I'm referring to the export companies that market open mold frames and just mark them at 20% of the price on the import slip. The rest is a "friend" donation.

Besides, even if you pay 3k for a Scott Spark RC frameset, Scott makes them for $300-$400 each and that's probably what goes on the slip. Warranty, QC, marketing, markup, and services are not taxable.
  • + 2
 Send all your Chinese made assemblies to your Taiwanese frame manufacturers, get them to assemble a kit of parts and send it to your facility in the US. Simple.
  • + 4
 Gods bless last year's model in the sail rail Make poor people great again
  • + 1
 It is mostly the more inexpensive (under 500 dollar bikes) that will be affected because they come from China. The avid mountain bike companies have most of their stuff made in Taiwan.
  • + 1
 That's not so true anymore. Especially with the shift to carbon, China has been gaining more high end biz. I think most high end brands now have production in China and it has hurt Taiwan. In a way, that was good for me, because it made the Taiwanese factories a little hungrier and more tolerant of smaller orders. The tariffs are to the benefit taiwan as some business is now shifting back. And bike business is a huge part of the taiwanese economy. I'm a little concerned that this might affect me in terms of factory priorities, but we'll see as I go there in a few weeks to sort out my next batch. You know, since there are NO takers yet on my desire to make them here.
  • + 1
 I would say it would be wise for the larger bike companies to be putting some R&D into the lower end cost bike lines. Inflation could really hurt their sales concerning the pricier bikes for a few years.
  • + 1
 I'm glad the author wasn't my Economics 101 teacher. He should stick to writing marketing pieces disguised as a review. Meanwhile getting free trips and giving out best of year to those companies.
  • + 3
 What about .. uhm... start not to consume that much?
I know it's weird, it's difficult, but ...
)
  • + 3
 The United States launched a trade war, and ultimately the only people who are unlucky will be ordinary people....
  • + 0
 My takeaway from this is that wether we're talking about the life of a corporate entity or an individual, life is unfair and challenges will arise. Our methods and success in dealing with these challenges determines our long term survival/success. So stop crying about it and figure a way around the problem.
  • + 4
 YOUR prez is a FU****G idiot I am buying a CANADIAN bike.
  • + 0
 You’ve convinced me with your articulate comment. Please enlighten us with your thoughts / plan on how to balance foreign trade with China? Stick to bikes guys, you sound like dumb shits
  • + 1
 Yo he is a complete dumbass for sure, he knows nothing other than guesswork
  • + 2
 @utley06: Apparently Pinkbike had to get political and the article is about tariffs that are only in place because of trump... soooo what did you expect?
  • - 1
 @utley06: Drop your currency, individual wages expectations and unburden your regulation on self, pay down your debt?
  • + 3
 Is bamboo included in the tariffs? I hear it's lighter than carbon and stronger than steel.
  • + 2
 production in China is more about brains than money. More talented people there than here.
  • + 1
 What did US bike companies do after the tax cut and jobs act reduced their tax liability? It was very favorable to businesses.
  • + 2
 I buy Chinese, is cheaper, just ask Trump who manufacturers all his goods in China!
  • + 1
 Boy, this is exploding faster than the Polygon article. I have a feeling this might take after Vista Outdoor ... 2.0 . To reference Def Leppard, Armageddon It. I'll pass.
  • + 0
 Come on be honest now, who here on PB voted for the loony making all these nonsensical chess moves?

Cause you little bastads, you should be taxed at a high rate and donate your ride at the same time.
  • + 1
 Thanks for your concern. Our unemployment is at record lows. Our GDP is at record highs. And my insanely high taxes have gone down. You wouldn't know any of that since you don't live here. Just reading the news wouldn't make you an expert. But if you'd like, I can try the same thing....
  • + 5
 @Timroo1:

Did you know that rising rent is calculated as "Growth" in GDP figures? GDP doesn't always mean that everything is better for everyone. Late stage Capitalism benefits corporations, not the Kowalskis.
  • + 6
 Well, the national debt is setting records with no end in sight. These new tariffs are taxes, and probably going to cost you. But, that's just money. The soft power we've lost by electing a man who would stick his dick in a porn star might never come back. @Timroo1:
  • + 3
 @titaniumtit : exactly, Trump was elected with a small half of the popular vote; yet everwhere you look, no one admits to have voted for him.
  • - 2
 @Lugers: let's vote in the radical left and let the real erosion of rights begin. Oh and their huge government would totally save us money right? I'm no Trump fan, but get real dude, stop with the dramatics as if the left isn't a complete joke.
  • + 2
 Says the loon that probably voted to remain in the protectionist EU which levies much higher tariffs on bike products produced in the far east.
  • + 0
 @Whipperman : I doubt you will find many people in France who voted in a US election at all, thus your point is invalid. Ahhhh the French, haha.
  • + 2
 @Timroo1: an how much of that is due to drumpf? An how much of that is real?
Anyone that knows the basics of politics knows that the growth you guys may be see'ing now are left over from the previous administration. Come back in 3-5 years an see how well drumpf is doing for (all) the american working people.
  • + 5
 @Timroo1: You guys have a right to vote for whoever you like (I am in the UK btw, not Canada) - Just like we did with Brexit.

Personally, I dont want Brexit and Trump as a person repulses me but that doesnt mean all of his policies are terrible, however....

Are you not worried that the low unemployment, low taxes and high GDP has been artificially brought about by the decisions Trump has made and that any benefits will be very short-term? E.g. the trade 'war', without alternative USA made product (doesnt exist, nobody makes certain products outside of the far east anymore) will mean a sales drop for importing business or goods costing more for you as prices rise thus eroding your tax saving? Also what happens when in 3 years the government tax pot is much smaller than before because of the reductions in tax, will your infastructure be able to cope with that?

Realistically, radical views on either side are usually toxic but you are a long way from seeing the genuine, long term economic effects of Trump, one thing you will be sure of though is that the rich in the USA will be getting richer over the next few years and its you that will suffer if / when things slow down, not them.
  • + 0
 @justanotherusername: I'm not an economist, unlike how many people on this site are pretending to be. The whole left said everything would tank immediately. It hasn't. Both sides are screwed. Smaller government intrusion is the way to go.
  • + 1
 @nojzilla: "a basic knowledge of politics" will not give you a solid knowledge of the economy. Every politician has used your excuse whenever things are going good ("but it's because of the last administration"), but blame the current administration when things go poor. It's typical BS politics on both sides.
  • + 1
 @Timroo1: like I said, come back in 3-5years........
  • + 3
 @Whipperman: actually he didn't even get half of the popular vote. He won the electoral colleges which are gerrymandered.
  • + 1
 @Whipperman: the US for the most part has been divided from the start of the nation ( the red coast are coming )..nothing has changed.
  • + 1
 @Timroo1: true that
  • + 1
 Interesting times. I'd LOVE to make my frames here (in the U.S.) instead of Taiwan. Just for the reduction in travel alone. Any takers?
  • + 0
 On Cocalis comment: from $350 to 750 extra bucks on a top Pivot bike that is already +/- US$5,000!
OMG, this is it for some US brands I guess... what a mess is creating your beloved orange ape fellows!
  • + 3
 if the USA is not careful its going to become a very isolated nation...
  • + 15
 The USA needs to become an isolated nation and stop fucking up other countries.
  • + 21
 I think we could use a bit more isolationism here in the states. We need to solve our own problems first.
  • - 16
flag DH-Angel (Aug 8, 2018 at 14:33) (Below Threshold)
 like your nation
  • - 16
flag DH-Angel (Aug 8, 2018 at 14:42) (Below Threshold)
 @mnorris122: your country only exist because of USA protection. otherwise Canada would be called Russia.
  • + 4
 @DH-Angel: And your country doesn't exist anymore Beer nice profile pic, bozo.
  • + 2
 @mnorris122: so you want the US and
Canada to stop trading? Yeah that would be great for your country. Ahh to see the world through your simple eyes.
  • + 2
 @DH-Angel:
Wash your mouth out! Ireland is holding tight to USA fruit (there’s the clue for you) monies away from the taxman.
  • - 7
flag mnorris122 (Aug 8, 2018 at 15:38) (Below Threshold)
 @Timroo1: nah, I just want the US to stop carrying out covert (and non-covert) operations in other countries, undermining their rules of law, and generally causing misery for millions of people around the world.
  • + 3
 @mnorris122: well then you can call on your country and many others to stop doing "covert" operations around the world. The ignorance....
  • + 2
 @DH-Angel: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That was SUCH a funny joke.

So who are you really, hiding behind that Confederate flag? My guess is you are really in eastern Europe somewhere...maybe just outside of Moscow or St. Petersburg.

Southerner? Putin's sock puppet is more like it.
  • + 0
 @Timroo1: I highly recommend that you read The Trial of Henry Kissinger, and maybe watch Ken Burns' Vietnam doc that just went up on Netflix. You might learn some things about your country that you're uncomfortable with.
  • - 1
 @mnorris122: I love your "holier than thou" attitude. The issue here is you spewing disrespect (on a bicycle forum for crying out loud) about a country that you don't live in. I'm glad you can show off your theoretical knowledge about a country other than your own. I'm glad you know that the US (and almost every other country) has a history filled with some pretty bad events. That's not uncomfortable. That's a fact. You're not impressing anyone by acting like you know things that we somehow don't.

I'm also glad that almost every Canadian I've had the pleasure of meeting (both here, and while spending time in Canada) didn't act like arrogant cucks like you, and were genuinely good people.
  • + 4
 @mnorris122: so does Canada... and a lot of other countries!
  • + 1
 @kylesligo: not sure that will happen...the US legal and illegal immigration is larger than most countries population and will need to work and grow. Us will continue to buy from around the globe. Things need to change and are....maybe this will give opportunities to other countries to build products and do the right thing with health of people and the earth.

No one country can build everything they need. We are all in this together and will work it out.
  • + 1
 @mnorris122: trippn
  • + 1
 @mnorris122: trippn again
  • + 0
 Of course despite these people actually being in the industry and knowing what they are talking about, some super-genius Trump fans will pretend that they don't know anything and everything will be just fiiiine.
  • + 1
 Ummmm....they're not pretending.
  • + 2
 So the tariffs will treat Taiwan and China differently? That's gotta piss China off even more than the tariffs themselves.
  • + 3
 Mike 'Levy'. Just saying. All conspiracy theories are real.
  • + 1
 Dude don't say this too loud, some people are stupid enough to take this seriously
  • + 2
 Didn't America borrow a over trillion dollars from China to get itself out of financial trouble?
  • + 1
 @Shitbrakes: www.usdebtclock.org In real time... What percentage of that is held by China???
  • + 1
 USA owes China So much as far as products not yet payed for, this is a way of paying it back So China owns USA in affect
  • + 1
 I wonder how much manufacturers outside China (i.e. Polygon) will be able to take advantage of this new turn of events.
  • + 1
 well, I'm just avoiding buying American bike brands or components altogether.
  • + 0
 This seems to be the global sentiment thanks to the traitor in chief. Awesome.
  • - 2
 Finally a US president who instead of bending over for greedy companies who care about nothing more than making money in the Chinese market, is making a stand on behalf of the US manufacturing industry. The Chinese unfairly took over the world's manufacturing via slave labor, and it's about time somebody fought back. Never mind the fact that the Chinese are leveraging their manufacturing power to STEAL sensitive military secrets. Of course companies who make money off cheap Asian manufacturing are gonna piss and moan. Hey Herrick...don't let the door hit you in the ass
  • + 9
 Adding tariffs raises the bottom line for literally everyone, the money goes into the government, not the people.

The raw ingredients needed for manufacturing are going to raise in price; this doesn't help American businesses whatsoever, it just raises prices across the board. Tariffs are not what we need, people buying local and supporting local as they understand the repercussions would be the actual solution.

Of course someone's going to find a way to spin this as a positive...
  • + 3
 @sherbet: well said. tariffs are taxes. nothing more.
  • + 2
 What MFG industry? The US is a consumer economy.
  • + 2
 @endlessblockades: Maybe one of the brands mentioned in the article above could show you about US industry. Read it?
  • + 0
 @sherbet: Unfortunately, there is not much of an industry left to save. As @endlessblockades said, the US is primarily a consumer economy. It's not just in the US though. it's generally true of many of the richer developed countries. Offshore, cheap labor, has become so ingrained in the industry that most segments could not afford to operate otherwise, not without substantially increasing costs of end products or taking a large hit on profit margins, or without government subsidies. Of course there are local manufacturers, they either have to remain small/niche to keep prices down or charge a lot if they want to compete with makers using foreign facilities. Then there is the question of experience. Carbon fiber, for example. I would opt for a Taiwan made from over a US or Canadian made frame any day. It's cheaper and Taiwan and many years of experience with it. They are well known to be one of the best, if not, the best, makers of carbon fiber products in the world. Most of the best fly fishing rods in the world use blanks made in Taiwan. Sage and Grey Wolf uses US made blanks and their prices reflect it when compared against an equivalent Snowbee, TFO, Hardy, Redington, etc.
  • + 1
 I'm not saying the US is a consumer market, I'm saying tariffs don't help the small industry the country has.

How does any of this change my point of tariffs hurting the market that exists? You're drawing at strings rather than seeing the full picture here; this increase in import does not help the American market, which is what it was sold to the voting public as. That's disingenuous.
  • + 1
 @sherbet: My apologies...I apparently misunderstood your comment. I totally agree with you and think that tariffs hurt pretty much everyone except those at the top. I read it to mean that you were saying large scale US based manufacturing could be competitive with overseas. Small scale, such as GG can compete with foreign build prices, but I don't think large scale could compete. Where do we do differ though, is that I do think the US and Canadian markets, other than in some niche areas, have become primarily consumer economies.
  • + 1
 One of the largest international companies is US based with US based construction and international sales, again, a company that was mentioned in the article; Trek.

People need to stop saying what can and cannot be done, and we need to look at the real world for examples. We're definitely a consumer market, why not work on that and create jobs? The opposite as to what these tariffs will do.

Not only can it be competitive, it is competitive.

Sorry if I'm coming off as semantic, but I really do feel all of these niche details are what makes the debate. Cheers dude.
  • + 2
 Ha, ha, ha you just got suckered into paying higher taxes just by changing the name to tariffs!!!!
  • + 1
 @sherbet: Trek only makes the carbon fiber frames in the US, well, most of them, everything else, which would make up the bulk of their sales and profit, is made in Asia. Still though, it's impressive they bother to keep it in the US at all when they could improve their profit without sacrificing quality by moving it to Taiwan. So, hat's off to Trek. Smile
  • + 1
 I didn't say anything to the contrary. Why do you keep trying to correct me?
  • + 2
 Pivot doesn’t even offer a bike for as cheap as $5000 do they?...
  • + 1
 More American Parts! I mean, what else is us made except some high end hubs?
  • + 0
 Thanks Bill Clinton ! Thanks money hungry CEO's....thanks over priced medical.....thanks illegal immigrants .....thanks anchor babies....thanks and to all a good night!
  • + 1
 Now we see the rise of black market, tariff proof bike traffickers. Find me on the dark web for a hook up.
  • + 1
 One things for sure, I am not going to stop riding. Even if it means, ride what you got longer!
  • + 1
 Whew, makes one ponder the simple times, being 10 and riding with friends...........
  • + 1
 Looks like China reached over and grabbed the US by the Pussy.
  • + 1
 And is failing.
  • + 0
 @sbrdude1: .....so in response to being grabbed US looks a bit like Stormie on this one.
  • + 1
 @gonzoracing: How so? We are China's largest consumer so if we stop buying or charge them more to ship here how is that bad for us? It's forcing innovation which is always a good thing.
  • - 3
 The way I see it, the regime that's dictated these stupid tariffs is chock a block with the dumbest, most misinformed, knee-jerk, insecure white men that the US has ever allowed into power. Sh*t is going to get more expensive, and heaps of MAGAts will pay the biggest price.

From recent comments in these forums, there is no overlap in the Venn diagram of Pinkbike users and supporters of Moscow Don. Let's keep it that way. Tweeter in Chief obviously doesn't ride bikes or give a rip about the outdoors.
  • + 39
 Why must you include 'white men' in your bashing ss if that is a negative term? Not defending Trump or his actions. I'm curious why you feel the need to bring race into this? Is white bad in your perspective? Are other 'non-whites' immune from your judgement?

Seems a but of hyperbole to bring race into this equation.

Ok, PB'ers I'm waiting for your thumbs down
  • - 12
flag DH-Angel (Aug 8, 2018 at 14:25) (Below Threshold)
 i guess you just prefer that USA get ripped off in trade established by the past administrations and not do anything about it and let the country go down the drain.
  • + 1
 @Pedalen: what an a-hole statement. Whatever cause you are championing, you are only doing it a disservice
  • + 12
 @bman33: He has been brainwashed, I have been wondering why is it with this new thing "white men". If it`s a white woman it`s ok, if it`s a whatever race man it`s ok too. I don`t know what is it with people obsession with gender and race.
  • + 7
 EU goes in higher either China 'tarrifs'. Don't see the world losing their minds or bashing their leader (s) for it From the article above:. "European Union countries levy astounding anti-dumping and import tariffs against China and neighboring Asian manufacturers, yet somehow, European bike brands are surviving quite well. Flawed though it may be, the US economy is robust. History suggests that it won't take too long to get this tariff thing sorted. - RC""
  • + 8
 President Trump could find the cure for cancer and people like you would say that he created cancer just to take credit for curing it. I’m gonna take a shot in the dark and predict that some jackwagon’s response to this will be “he is a cancer.”
  • + 3
 @DH-Angel: LOL!

If you want to see why the U.S. S going down the drain, have a look at the global education ranking.

The U.S. is all about providing the smallest value to the purchaser of goods and maximizing profits to the industries. Take dairy for example, heavily subsidized by the government yet still full of grown hormones and antibiotics.
  • + 2
 Came to read about the bike industry, stayed for people like sngltrkmnd crying like children and hurling weak insults. Haha hilarious.
  • - 3
 @bman33: "Ethnicity" not "race." However, I do agree with your statement.
  • + 9
 @jclnv: thank you so much, for telling us simple minded Americans that our country is going down the drain. You were even kind enough to tell us why! Bless you hyper-intelligent-pinkbike-user. I'm amazed by your knowledge of my country.
  • - 1
 But if he did it would be a “Giant Glory” to hold his huage narccisstic ego.
  • + 4
 @richierocket: I was going off of a Google search definition: " ...You can identify ethnically as Irish and Polish, but you have to be essentially either black or white." .

But my main point is bringing either into this conversation is poisonous and only serves as a catalyst
  • - 1
 Someone got all special bout giant didn’t they. Maybe trump has an alias on PB hahaha
  • - 3
 @CaliCol: president trump could create cancer just to take credit for curing it and people like you would just say "oh he cured the cancer Obama created". See ? it works in both directions, and it's pathetic
  • + 3
 @zede: no, I’ve never thought that. I think President Obama is a very smart and well articulated individual. Didn’t agree with him on a lot but I’m a mature, grown adult and I don’t throw leftist snowflake hissy fits and riot when I don’t agree with my President. Oh! Don’t you feel like an idiot!
  • - 1
 @bman33: Used the descriptor "white men" because.... the current regime is predominantly comprised of males who are Caucasian. Prove me wrong.
  • - 3
 @CaliCol: little donnie finding a cure for anything besides the midnight munchies...LOL. I can't wait for his perp walk.
  • + 3
 @sngltrkmnd: Not disputing that. So that has a relevance to tariffs how?
  • - 4
flag sngltrkmnd (Aug 8, 2018 at 15:46) (Below Threshold)
 @Timroo1: I'm not crying like a child. I simply despise the moron in chief. If you voted for him, I envy people that have never met you.
  • + 3
 @sngltrkmnd: but why would it matter? What if it was predominantly comprised of lets say short fat women? Would you say it? would it matter? does it matter?
  • + 2
 @bman33: Seriously? Because the current regime is responsible for this misguided trade war.
  • - 3
 @pipomax: Dominant paradigm has been permitting/enabling white men, particularly unqualified ones, to rise to power. Time for change is way overdue.

With any luck, this nightmare will end this year and we'll get the reboot that we need.
  • + 5
 @sngltrkmnd: I respect whatever political preference you may have. I don´t think it will change in November though, specially and ironically because of people like you.
  • - 3
 @pipomax: Nah. I am a registered voter and am doing all i can to mobilize others to exercise their right to vote. I hope you do as well.
Change is comin' Treasonous racists (and their supporters) are going out of style.
  • + 5
 @sngltrkmnd: no you pretty much are. You lose all credibility when you get on a platform like this and throw a little tantrum. No need to insult people dude. Chill out. Go for a ride.

I don't need to lean one way or another to point out that people like you are a problem. Don't get all mad throwing a fit...

And you don't have to "envy people who have never met me".... since you've never met me. Give up.
  • + 7
 @sngltrkmnd: I used to be a democrat, voted for Obama, abstained from Hillary, voted for Jill. Over the course of some months now I have been reading/hearing some radicals like yourself. At one point I thought to myself What the hell is wrong with these people? Is this really the direction my party is going?

Thanks to people like you, I have been driven to the other side and now I am a hardcore Trump supporter. Some call it "red pill moment" I had a few of those moments and now I really see the reality.

You say you are doing anything you can to mobilize others to your political preference. That is why I said what I said, thanks to people like you change will not happen in November. You are doing the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish and that would be OPENING peoples eyes. I know mine had been opened by now.
  • + 6
 @pipomax: Get real... Trumpism/Bannonism is the most radical political agenda to take hold in the United States since maybe McCarthyism? And even that didn't have this kind of sweeping influence that will likely end up reorganizing the global economy and world order. Saying you became a hardcore Trump supporter to avoid "radicals" of an opposing side is like drinking whiskey to kill a hangover.
  • + 3
 @Timroo1: No worries. You have the most broken political system in the G8. Everyone is bought and everything is gutted for profit, including the school system. It's f*cked and you should be rioting in the streets but instead you have this bizarre nationalist reaction that causes you to become angry at anyone who criticizes it.

“Not long ago, we had a superb public school system, but now we trail most countries. In math, we’re 38th in the world among developed countries in terms of how 15 year-olds perform. And it’s getting worse, not better.”

- Professor F.H. Buckley
  • + 0
 @ChadBroChill22:I understand the point you are making and to be honest I used to think like you myself. That is the reason I say "my eyes were opened" not because of emotions but because of reason and logic. I started doing some research and it began unfolding that`s why I made the change. I changed because of what I learned and not because others told me to.
  • - 1
 @bman33: Maybe because all the unqualified, sketchy swamp-dwellers (the finest people, the best, believe me) DT has surrounded himself with are all white men? All fired, indicted, or actively sntiching white men. I'm a white man, but that's just facts.
  • + 0
 @jclnv: rioting in the streets is move used by irrational and ignorant losers who can't think for themselves (guess like you, since you're suggesting we do it). It accomplishes nothing. Most of us would rather go to work, provide for our families, and try to better our lives and our country.l

I'm sorry it's so "nationalist" of me to point out that you're a typical douche who is spouting off about stuff that you've only read about, since you don't live here. But nice try.
Thanks for the laugh.
  • - 1
 @endlessblockades: great, now we have people from San Francisco chiming in. This has really gone down the shitter (like SF, get it?)
  • - 2
 @CaliCol: Don't worry I can't feel like an idiot when an American uses "leftist snowflake" in a sentence after saying trump is a poor scapegoat
  • - 1
 @Timroo1: you're just proving his point. "Most of us would rather work and provide for our families" = "it's ok if I'm an uneducated tool as long as me and my family can survive".
I guess it's a fine way of thinking as long as you believe Jesus loves you and god will welcome you in paradise to thank you for being a slave your whole life.
  • + 0
 @Timroo1: Actually no, that's the only way revolutions of political systems change, and have ever changed. Your democracy is broken and your government is working against your best interests. (Canada isn't far behind either).

Sorry if you don't like the facts I've read.
  • + 3
 @zede: learn to read a whole sentence. I said: Work and provide for my family, then try to better my country. Nice try.
  • + 2
 @jclnv: America is a constitutional republic, not a democracy. You can't even get that right, and your "facts" are just you trying to look smart. Good effort. Thanks for telling us how our country is doing from up there, you must watch a lot of TV.
  • + 0
 @Timroo1: Well it's a specifically a two party republic.

What I meant by democracy was that your democratic right to vote is largely pointless due to the political framework behind it.

Read the below and tell me how smart you are for fighting the blue collier, USA, USA! fight.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/america-is-not-a-democracy/550931
  • + 2
 @pipomax: LOL no, I promise you don't think like me and never have. And no one in the world outside the most brainwashed corners of America believes that enlightenment leads to becoming a "hardcore Trump supporter." But this is a silly argument. If you want to talk trade/economics then I can go all day, but the "Democrats were mean to me so I picked the sexual predator with the intellectual prowess of a cinder block" cryfest is a tired and pointless discussion.
  • + 0
 **note, not everyone is acting childish on this site, but....

So how is everyone doing? Are all you with your a*shole self-righteous, smug "my point of view is better than your point of view" and "my country is better than yours" Feeling better about yourselves now? I am talking to ALL the Americans, the Canadas, Brits, French etc. pissing on everyone eles for a tit-for-tat volley here. Anyone change their mind because they got burned?

Is China somehow a victim and purely innocent in all this? Should all Americans be stereotyped because is XYZ politician or XYZ Pinkbiker comments? 330+ million of us just as a reminder. Is Canda somehow better than the US becase their tariffs are different than ours or some smug dick points out a few negative points? Is pissing on Canada, Europe making the Americans feel like they are 'the man' in a burn contest? Is Europe somehow a perfect utopia and their approach to trade, trade barriers and tax a panacea the best fit for everyone regardless of opinion? Is the US better because we have either a Dem/Repub president and all that didn't vote for said Dem/Repub president or agree with their approach inferior? Is calling all whites bigots or all those who voted for Obama commies making everyone feel good about themselves? I am sure I missed some mud slinging points here.

Aren't we all here on this site for a common interested? Bikes!!! Don't we come here to escape all the 'real world' BS and somehow discuss those things that do come into our spectrum in a rational way and NOT fall into the same polarizing 'Us vs Them' circus the media (from all political perspectives) wants to trick us into? Do you feel like talking shit like a bunch of F***king school yard kids someone makes 'your' country better? Hoe far did we get in our discussions on an adult level? OR did you just come in to win a pissing contest? Anyone opinions change due to the drama?

EVERY country has issues. EVERY country has positives. Great politicians on both sides of the spectrum as well as loser scum politicians on both as well...regardless of a border of which side of the oceans you live on.

Some of us on the page need to grow the F**k up and calm down. Go ride your bikes!! 135, 142, 148, 157 rear hubs, 26", 27.6", 29" wheels, who cares?? We are 'adults' who ride expensive toys in mostly first world countries in the woods/mountains. Appreciate that for what it is and celebrate our (Pinkbike's worldwide audience) common MTB interests DESPITE all of our 'real world' differences and situations. THAT is what we are here for.
  • + 3
 As a note for above, my point isn't about constructive back and forth, it's about the venomous put downs, assumptions and 'F you' type of remarks. I will see you guys at the bottom of downvotes for my remarks I am sure. Big Grin
  • + 1
 Ibis is making USA carbon fiber bikes now!!
  • + 2
 IBIS is making 'a' USA carbon fiber bike. Just one size, one bike. And that is only because the designer is an extra small (but awesome gal).
  • + 0
 Literally has nothing to do with this off the cuff decision to change tariffs.
  • + 1
 @kmg0: In a way it does because it is making domestic production a viable option again.
  • + 2
 @Poulsbojohnny: they are making a small to see the demand.. there is no way they could keep up with a medium / large frame demand. If it shows promise they’ll look at increasing production. This is straight from ibis’s mouth.
  • + 2
 @kmg0: the bike industry had nothing to do with the tarrIff decision, so what’s your point? The fact ibis is making carbon frames in the USA is relevant to overseas manufacturing and kick ass for American distribution / manufacturing.
  • + 1
 @utley06: You said "they are making frames NOW", (emphasis mine), as if the tariffs lead to their decision. They've been working on that for years, no doubt. This is just a convenient thing for them.
  • + 0
 What a stupid war! Trump is an idiot! I guess this will be good for the European companies.
  • + 5
 You are a simple minded fool. It's a tactic to force them to bargaining table giving the USA lower manufacturing/production costs.
  • + 3
 @sbrdude1: To think China will submit to these bullying tactics is both stupid and arrogant. Submitting would bring shame and dishonor upon them, concepts important in their culture. They will continue to match tariffs dollar for dollar, or compensate for losses with either their own tariffs on US goods, by devaluing their currency, or finding other trade partners for goods they were getting from the US. Their economy is also larger than the US and while they are each-other's largest trading partners, China's national debt is near a 5th of what the US is ($4.3T vs $21T), so they have far more capacity to absorb any losses caused by these tariffs. China's economy is also built on manufacturing and exports, giving them more flexibility than the US, which typically imports far more than it exports. As for US based companies that use Chinese facilities, most will stay put, some may move out of China, most of those to another cheap labor market not affected by these tariffs, but few will move to US soil. In all scenarios, the cost WILL be passed to the consumer.
  • + 1
 @samael: funny thing is that the United States doesn't much care about the pride of China. For once I agree with DT on a business decision. The cost will self correct and due to the fact that the United States is the largest consumer of Chinese products they will submit to better options for us.
  • + 0
 @sbrdude1: You have to look at the bigger picture. The US represents only 14% of Chinese export trade, much of which are manufactured goods that can't be gotten elsewhere, so the US will still buy them with the inflated prices (And pass the losses on to the consumers), where China represents 16% of US export trade, much of which will be food (America's last great export), but food can be gotten from other global markets. That said, nearly 50% of US exports go to only 3 countries, all of which Trump has picked a fight with (China, Canada, Mexico). China's trade portfolio, while the US may be their largest single partner, is far more diverse with, understandably, over 50% of their trade being with other Asian countries. The way I see it, China has a better hand here and will not fold. China simply has more options and more avenues to absorb some of the trade loss with the US.
  • - 2
 Coooorrrrrrrrrrrrrr blimey!
The neg props system’s gonna implode my screen any second ...

Lmao
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