Steve Domahidy isn't afraid to stick his neck out when it comes to mountain bike design. He and Chris Sugai co-founded Niner Bikes when the 29er was either off the radar or a swear word among rank and file riders. Domahidy struck out on his own a number of years ago and has been involved behind the scenes as a designer and consultant for other brands and more recently, has launched a modest range of road and mountain frames under the "Domahidy Designs" label.
His latest brainchild, the Domahidy Designs Titanium All-Mountain Pinion Hardtail, is intended to fill the role of a very capable and durable fun bike that should require little or no maintenance, even for those who live and ride in the UK. Domahidy sells it as a frame kit that includes a triple butted 3/2.5 titanium frame, a 12-speed Pinion gearbox, and a Gates Carbon Drive toothed belt with drive sprockets for $4995 USD. Customers who pre-order the kit will receive as a thank you, an Industry Nine Back Country 27.5+ or 29” wheelset worth $1000 USD. Delivery is slated for mid-summer according to Domahidy and company.
Details:• Triple butted 3/2.5 alloy titanium hardtail frame (Sm. Med. Lg.)
• 27.5+ (3” tire clearance) or 29” wheel compatible
• Pinion P1.12, twelve-speed gearbox
• Comes with Gates belt drive and front and rear Gates cogs
• 120-140mm fork compatible
• 30.9mm internal dropper post routing.
• 148mm Boost rear-hub spacing
• 4.25 lbs. for medium frame (no gearbox)
• $4,999 frame and drivetrain kit
• Contact:
Domahidy Designs About the Titanium All-Mountain Pinion Hardtail Domahidy Designs hails from Colorado, USA, where the bikes are developed and tested. The Titanium All Mountain Pinion frames are produced in small quantities from triple butted 3/2.5 titanium in Taiwan. According to Steve, the geometry is on the conservative side of modern, with a relatively slack, 68-degree head angle (67 with a 140mm fork) - and with oversized tubes and beefy construction intended to take a beating in the hands of seasoned technical riders. The frame is designed to accept 148mm Boost rear hubs, and either conventional 29er wheels or 27.5-plus wheels with tires up to three inches wide. Internal dropper post routing is included. Adjustable rear dropouts allow the belt drive to be properly tensioned and also provides the option for a different final-drive gear. Sizes are small, medium and large. Weight for the medium sized frame, sans-gearbox, is pegged at 4.25 pounds (1.93kg).
A machined-titanium mounting interface replaces the threaded bottom bracket you'd find on a conventional frame, and it bolts directly to the twelve-speed P1.12 Pinion gearbox, which includes the crank arms and a Gates cog-belt "chainring." Domahidy says that the gearbox adds 1.75 pounds (.77kg) to the equivalent weight of a SRAM 1 x 11 derailleur drivetrain. Pinion's claim is that the 12-speed gearbox has more evenly spaced selections with a wider range than SRAM's one-by-eleven can attain (even the 12-speed that is rumored to be in development).
Those unfamiliar with the
Gates Carbon Drive will be happy to know that the 11-millimeter-pitch cog-belt does not stretch and needs no lubrication and, reportedly, its efficiency matches that of a roller chain in real world conditions. Single-speed riders who run the Gates drive report that it is whisper quiet and incredibly long lasting. Domahidy uses it because it remains efficient in dusty or wet conditions that would put a roller chain in the hurt locker. His motto for the new bike is: "Ride, rinse and repeat."
Ready to Ditch the Derailleur?The DD Titanium AM Pinion hardtail's asking price is steep, but once you get over the sticker shock and start adding up the prices of the Pinion gearbox, Carbon Drive, and then subtract the cost of a conventional drivetrain and crankset, it starts to look more realistic. Throw in that free thousand-dollar Industry Nine wheelset and the pie gets even sweeter. If you are gearbox curious, Steve Domahidy's new all-mountain hardtail may be the gateway drug you have been waiting for. For more information, contact the
Domahidy Designs website or
on-line store.
Still, this is everything I want in a bike. Geo looks like you could even pedal it both up hill and down hill!
That's the rub, we consumers are not stupid, and we will come forward with our wallets open for real innovation. Its when the marketing departments get there hands on the latest and greatest, when really its not so great.
Anyway, this has been said 1,000 times, and will be likely brought up 14 more times in this comment section alone.
Back to being an internet warrior.
Rear mech is in the way of objects and along with cassette, adds unsprung weight to the suspension, do you see engines in motorcycle hubs? Even most Electric motos have engine mounted centrally, even though they could just use hub engine. Do you see a gearbox in motorcycle hub? It's fricking clear but many people cannot imagine anything else than what they see... and many of them believe there is such thing as market demand. There isn't. People in power design stuff, produce it and then you either like it or not. Few years after you accept anything. If you got used your eyes to a clutch in rear mech, then you can get them used to gearbox bikes. And if only Shimano and SRAM would make one, your wallet would get used to one rather quickly too
So yes there is a problem and the centrally mounted gearbox is the solution for it.
Really Waki? No discussion? How about the dramatically decreased mechanical efficiency of a gearbox vs a chain and derailleur? A well maintained conventional bike drivetrain has mechanical efficiency lossess on the order of 1-7% of input power. A gearbox on the other hand has losses normally above 15%, and nearing 40% at low torque (depends on the gearing). That's the engineering viewpoint ya hack.
No discussion- "I'm right and that's all there is to say about it". Except when you are catastrophically wrong.
I've been waiting for a bike like that since the early 2000's. Although it was a little different, the Honda RN 01 was amazing. It doesn't have the same axis for pivot and bb and uses a tensioner. I'll never forget watching Minarr racing it in 2004 I think in Big Bear. You could hear all the other bikes a mile away coming down the hill with the clunky suspension and chain slap. When he came down, it was just the sound of tires and dirt!
Minarr did an interview about a month or two ago with Peaty and talked about that bike. Interesting comment was that he said it does have advantages, but that design had some drag in that the gears are always engaged. I wonder if these gear boxes encounter the same drag. But on the positive, since it is always engaged, you don't have to pedal to shift gear. You can shift down or up mid turn and be ready and not have to wait till the turn is over to shift into the right gear. That was on the Honda, not sure if these new ones work that way.
Oh yeah, and no more derailleur hitting crap on the ride and breaking it!
Really hope the idea progresses.
Second pic on the page.
scribnerelectric.com/modules/com_docman/greg-minnaar-494.html
Gearbox like Pinion fits just fine into any bike design. If it were made by Shimano or Sram, it would take only one generation to elevate it above rear mech with 1lbs of weight penalty.
Derailleurs are suitable for accountants and XC riders.
I told you that accountants steer the big industry and for them derailleur is just better because it means they have to spend less time on R&D since they only pay for design of the frame. So all they have to do in order to provide gearing for their bike is to make a 10mm threaded hole for the rear mech and support for the B-screw. Then threaded or pressfit BB shell. Theeen they have two competing brands making derailleurs so price goes down. Hi Shimano, SRam gave us a better deal on everything that fits our frame just like yours, how about you drop the price a bit? Then it is better for Shimano to make derailleurs for all sorts of reasons with main being: they do same sht since years. Just need to redesign the looks a bit.
Now gearbox requires commitment to one particular make in order to mount it in the bike. Irrelevant for user, very relevant for the guys counting costs...
alutech-cycles.com/navi.php?a=2270&lang=eng
alutech-cycles.com/navi.php?a=2253&lang=eng
www.cavalerie-bikes.com
www.nicolai-bicycles.com/shop/index.php/enduro/ion-gpi.html
(there used to also be a DH Nicolai with an Effigear)
www.effigear.com
pinion.eu
As for the two gearboxes, i'd like to see a trigger shifter for the pinion (with Sram's upcoming 12spd group you could cobble together an adaptor to pull both Pinion's cables, maybe) and maybe see them explore Effigear's layout of the output shaft not being concentric to the pedal axis. That would make building high pivot bikes easier.
As for the Effigear, it has trigger shifting, but it requires the use of a freehub-less rear hub. It drives the chain while downshifting, with easing up on the pedals it apparently releases some clutches and enables the downshift to a lighter gear (that's what i was told about a year ago). Using a normal freehub means you have to backpedal a bit to do the downshift.
As for the layout of the Effigear, it's very versatile and can even come in Pinion's layout.
www.effigear.com/#!frame-integration/c1fai
In general though, you still have to drive the chain and sprockets (the efficiency is the same as with ye olde and ye shitte derailleurs) PLUS all the gearbox bearings (and seals) and sprockets (~10 sprocket pairs), plus some clutches, pawls, etc. The efficiency will NEVER be as good for a gearbox bike as it is for a derailleur bike (i would in fact like to see efficiency numbers for a crossed-over chain). That and the integration problems is the gearbox's downfall.
TL;DR: gearboxes make sense, they will improve your riding experience, start pushing for more.
Did I get it right?
PS: awesome bike!!!
1. To buy high-end product OR to built bike from parts (some of which may be used) in such configuration which is the best for us. (I have already build two bikes one-for me other for my wife)
2. To maintain bikes at special centres OR to maintain them by ourselves. (I always maintain bike by myself and I have less problems than one of my friend who brings his bike only to "specialists")
Those who have enough money to buy hi-end they spend money. Those who is like me they spend time. I am trying to earn more money and some day I will buy hi-end products, the difference is that people who will maintain my bike will have no possibility to fool me;-))
P.S when you build bike by yourself it could be even more expensive but you can put more universal details in it (like hubs 4 in 1 and other) and then you will spend less money on modifying it. For example for some reason you need to change fork (you've broke it while falling) and the new one has axle 20 mm and the previous was 15 mm. If you have hub 4 in 1 it is not a problem for you!)))
My second hand 2010 Trek Fuel EX9 is still a ripper, 26" wheels and all. There are good value bikes around and if even they are out of your price range get something a year or two old that is still technologically bang up to date . . . I would argue the All Mountain/Euduro bike hasn't changed much since 1 by drive trains 3/4 years ago
Gearboxes are heavy, expensive, complicated and readily available. People aren't buying the ones that are on the market, why should a big company like Sram or Shimano speculate a huge amount of money on a market which doesn't currently exist just to encourage a loss in sales of their core market but no overall increase in revenue? There aren't going to be more bikes overall sold with the introduction of gearboxes, just a share of the bikes sold will have gearboxes instead of them all having derailleurs. If you want there to be more and better gearboxes you need to buy the ones there are now, help the companies doing what you are asking for to fund their research.
Long live two stroke moto, Honda recently applied for new patents for 2 stroke direct injection.
Long live 26" wheels.
Consumers are the cause of the deaths.
Don't buy it And they will stop developing it.
Been here 16 years, votes aren't going to make or break the thousands of hours I've spent actually working on gearboxes, albeit for a different application. :-P
It would be very interesting to hear an experts' opinion on how such a bike handles given that the center of mass of the bike changes dramatically when compared to a "normal" bike with all that transmission weight loaded on the back wheel...
Especially for FS bikes I assume that removing the weight from the rear wheel would improve dramatically the performance of the rear suspension...
I guess we have a few seasons to go before gearbox becomes mainstream...
We spend our hard earned money on things that make us happy, the industry pays its bills and makes sure that it will keep making things that will make us happy in the future so as to give them more of our hard earned money...(wait, that sounds cynical indeed )
atrokz - since you may like to run a chain on a gearboxed bike instead of the belt, the chain wear argument (that I propelled myself just to see if someone catches it) is quite irrelevant. The only thing is that chain doesn't get crossed and works in best possible line.
Before buying my last bike,(2014), I searched for a gearbox bike to test, but here in New England, I couldn't find any available. That left the internet only, and as a tall rider, sizing is too tough to guess on without a test ride. I would be very inclined to buy a gearbox based bike if there was a demo available, maybe Highland would be interested?!
Ultimately though, to read a long term review on PB might suffice enough for me to finally pull the trigger, and could possibly raise awareness for shops/parks to consider selling/demoing them.
So hopefully that gives you some insight into the design and execution of this bike. I understand it's not for everybody, very few bikes are, but I believe this is a huge step forward for expanding drivetrain options and I personally think this bike is the most fun hardtail bike I've ever ridden.
Thank you again, sincerely, Steve Domahidy
But I like the idea. Any added weight is at the lowest point on the frame. Nice to see someone doing something high quality that's actually different. I see a lot more stuff in the next few years like this being developed. Once you prove it can be done without a crap ton of weight... and it's functional... it's on.
That said...didn't DH/AM hardtails die like 10 years ago (ala the Le Toy, the Pornking, .243 racing, etc.)??? Why the sudden spark to bring them back?
Surely some well compacted slop will causes some major belt jumping once its been packed in by those teeth.
www.pilotcycles.com/nl/240/pilot-titanium-bikes/modellen/b-27-5-fatbike
Than again, they're Dutch, so... Meh.
As for cost of mtb, it is too expensive.
When you consider the volume of bikes sold - high, middle and low - end the costs should be a lot lower.
This gear box is just another costly fad, just like "extra" bikes and fat bikes. And for the latter, if you can't afford the hugely expensive studded tires don't bother buying one for winter conditions.
Am I missing something? Can it be run without a gearbox? Are there gearboxes from Pinion that vary in weight?
Number of gears
18 12 9 9
Gearbox Weight
2700g 2350g 2200g 2200g
Still I'd love to see how this bike handles. It probably feels super planted and stable with so much weight so low on the bike.
Nahhh
www.cheetah.de/mountainbike/alpencross-for-pleasure.html