First Look: Shimano's New XTR is More Than Just 12-Speed

May 25, 2018 at 2:29
by Richard Cunningham  
XTR M9100


Hate to spoil it with the fancy title, but Shimano had run out of promises. The mountain bike community has long been waiting for Shimano to drop the front derailleur, stop fooling around with electronics, and give us a wide-range 1x drivetrain that could challenge SRAM's near takeover of the global trail bike market. The time to play catch-up had long passed. Shimano needed to knock XTR out of the park. I'm pretty sure they just did.

To discover why I think the new XTR is so right, let's recap how it got so wrong. Shimano's overarching rule for XTR is that it is designed to be a no-compromise racing ensemble. Well, that fell apart when long-travel trail bikes that catered to capable riders became the dominant segment of the sport. Shimano responded by diluting XTR into a very expensive pile of make-everybody-happy components that could be configured to fit almost every mountain bike genre, from bike packing to World Cup XC. Somehow, in that flurry of engineering, they made everything but the wide-range 1x drivetrain that the long-travel trail bike crowd were begging for. The previous generation XTR performed admirably for what it was, but to move forward, euthanasia was Shimano's only recourse.


Enter XTR M9100

Shimano put XTR back on track with a complete redesign from top to bottom and, more importantly, reaffirmed the group's commitment to racing. The new group is numbered M9100, and it is configured in two distinct versions: one for cross-country and one for enduro.

The scope of improvements and innovations that are packed into the new M9100 ranges from minutia, like tiny shoulders formed inside the chain links, to a radically different freehub ratchet with a clutch that completely disengages it while coasting. So, let's dive right into the tech, beginning with 12-speed.
XTR M9100
Twelve-speeds, a ten-tooth cog, and a new rear derailleur that reduces chain tension in low gear ranges.

New Cassette and Driver

Micro Spline: The most anticipated news was 12-speed XTR, and second to that, whether or not Shimano would adapt its cassettes to SRAM's XD driver or invent a new freehub mechanism that would allow the use of clogs smaller than 12 teeth. The answer is the latter: "Micro Spline." Shimano's first aluminum cassette body, and it is compatible with... nothing. Shimano says that the chances of licensing the XD driver were near zero and that Micro Spline gave them more options to optimize their cassette.

With 23 deep, rectangular splines, Shimano says they can forge the Micro Spline freehub body from aluminum without risking the deformation and galling that conventional aluminum cassette bodies suffer. The inspiration came from Shimano's Center Lock brake rotor interface, and it allows the use of stand-alone cassette cogs, in conjunction with a new lightweight spider system.

bigquotesBefore you sprint to the comment section, consider that Shimano has used the same basic freehub system since the dawn of index shifting.

Will Shimano license its Micro Spline technology? Yes and no. The official word is that only DT Swiss will have access to Micro Spline and beyond that, Shimano has no current plans to license the system. Before you sprint to the comment section, consider that Shimano has used the same basic freehub system since the dawn of index shifting. It's about time for a change. Shimano will also offer a range of hubs (more about this later) with non-series options for OEM customers.
XTR M9100
XTR's aluminum Micro Spline freehub body is more robust than its predecessor.

Scylence freehub system: In some ways, it resembles a DT Swiss Star Ratchet system, but it's a whole new animal. For starters, the teeth completely disengage while coasting. As the name suggests, the system is silent - and that may take some getting used to. For well over a century, the chatter of spring-loaded freewheel pawls has defined the bicycle from all other modes of transportation.

XTR M9100
Shimano's Scylence freehub: The green ratchet wheel indexes into the hub shell. The yellow ratchet wheel screws into the short spiral segment on the left side of the blue Micro Spline body. Pedaling torque forces the green and yellow ratchet wheels together. When coasting, the spring between the wheels disengages them completely, so the system runs quietly in both modes.

The Micro Spline driver has a series of spiral grooves on the back side that physically pull the star ratchet plates together. Pedaling torque engages the freehub ratchet, not flimsy springs, so the hub is locked in place as long as you are applying pressure to the pedals. A coil spring between the ratchet plates disengages them and keeps them separated while coasting. The Scylence freehub system provides 7.6 degrees of engagement. Its components are simple, robust and, unlike other silent freehubs that use roller or sprag clutches, its ratchet mechanism minimizes radial loads, so the hubs can be made much lighter weight.

XTR M9100

XTR M9100
XTR M9100
Hyperglide+ 12-speed cassettes use an aluminum spider to secure the eight largest cogs. The three black sprockets are aluminum, the five grey ones are titanium, and the final four cogs slide directly onto the Micro Spline freehub.


Hyperglide+ cassette: Shimano pioneered shifting ramps to keep the chain engaged with both cogs while shifting, but until today, those ramps only worked when shifting to the next larger cog. The clunking and clanking sounds that accompany each shift towards the ten-tooth cog will attest to that. Shimano's new Hyperglide+ cogs have ramps in both directions, so shifting to the next smaller cog is quicker, seamless, and should minimize interference with your butter smooth pedaling cadence.

XTR M9100
Shimano added down-ramps to XTR cassette cogs for seamless shifts from larger to smaller sprockets.

Shimano will offer three cassettes for XTR M9100. Two 12-speed and one 11-speed. The most popular 12-speed cassette will probably be the wide range 10 by 51 tooth model. That one-tooth advantage over SRAM Eagle is probably there for bragging rights, but it could be defended as an "adjustment" to give 29-inch wheel riders the same low gear as they would experience riding 27.5 with a 50 tooth cog out back. Speculation aside, Shimano also offers a 12-speed Rhythm cassette that tops out at 45 teeth, with the benefits being more closely spaced shifts in the lowest three gears.

11-speed? In an unexpected turn of events, Shimano developed an 11-speed cassette that shares the same gearing as its 10 by 51, but with the 51 removed. The reasoning was that, when asked, Shimano's sponsored racers (both from enduro and cross country), maintained that they didn't need the 51, and were unwilling to carry the burden of the extra cog. Riders who commit to XTR 11-speed can choose a special hub that spaces
Hyperglide+ Gearing Options:

10 x 51 Wide Range:
• 12-speed
• 510% gear range
• 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 28, 33, 39, 45, 51
• 367 grams

10 X 45 Rhythm Step:
• 12-speed
• 450% gear range
• 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 45
• 357 grams

10 X 45 Lightweight:
• 11-speed
• 450% gear range
• 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 28, 33, 39, 45
• 310 grams
the hub flange 4.7 millimeters to the right to help even out the spoke tension, but there's no going back to 12 speed, because the 12th cog will touch the spokes. 11-speed cassettes are backward compatible with 12-speed hubs. Adding up the weight benefits of one less aluminum cog, a couple of missing chain links, and by taking advantage of XTR's mid-length rear derailleur cage option, finicky pros can save 80 grams.

XTR M9100
XTR can be configured as an 11-speed for those who want a lighter weight and more compact drivetrain.

Beam Spider Technology: Shimano's modular cassette design is competitively lightweight and very easy to install. Shimano pegs the 10 x 51 12-speed at 367 grams, with the 11-speed 10 x 45 at 310 grams. (SRAM's claimed weight for an XX1 12-speed cassette is 352 grams.) Most of the cogs are slender rings that are riveted to a lightweight aluminum spider. The first three cogs are aluminum, followed by five titanium cogs. The smallest four cogs are steel and mount directly to the Micro Spline driver. Shimano says they use secret, long-wearing surface treatments on all of the cogs, and even if you do wear out a couple of sprockets, you won't have to replace the entire cassette to freshen it up. Hyperglide+ cassettes are retained with a threaded cap using Shimano's existing spline tool.

XTR M9100


Bonded-Aluminum, Direct-Mount Crankset

Shimano certainly has the technology to manufacture a carbon crankset - and they have done so - but their testing showed that it was aluminum that came out on top in the strength, weight, and durability contest. The 9100-series XTR cranksets feature a direct-mount spline instead of the four-bolt spider, which is lighter weight and much better looking. The non-drive side arm no longer clamps onto the tubular steel axle. The new interface is still splined, but the crankarm also has a more conventional locking taper. The left arm is fixed by an Allen key, is self-extracting, and features a bearing preload adjustment dial.

Bonded technology: Like Dura-Ace road cranksets, the new XTR crankarms begin as two pieces: an aluminum forging that integrates the pedal threads, bottom bracket axle interface
Crankset Features & Options:

• Direct-mount chainring
• Bonded, hollow aluminum crankarms
• Tubular steel axle
• Bearing preload adjustment dial
• 168 or 162mm Q-factor options
• One 52mm chainline for 142mm or Boost-width hubs
• Dual-chainring option (28 x 38t)
• Narrow-wide chainrings (30, 32, 34, 36, 38t options)
• Left arm has locking taper and one-key release
• Weight: TBD
and chainring mount is bonded to thin, stamped-aluminum outer shell. The result is a stiff, hollow structure that should take a beating without long-term durability concerns. No word yet on available crankarm lengths, but we expect to see 165, 170, 175 and 180-millimeter options.

Dura-Ace
XTR's hollow, bonded-aluminum crank arm technology was borrowed from Dura-Ace, as illustrated in this sequence. A stamped shell is bonded over a sturdy forging. The result is a rigid, very lightweight structure.

One chain line and two Q-factors: Shimano XTR cranks support both Boost 148-millimeter and non-Boost 142-millimeter axle widths with one 52-millimeter chain line. The key to this simplification is a modified narrow-wide chairing tooth profile, in combination with shaped chain plates that, reportedly, run more quietly and with less friction at exaggerated angles. In order to mirror road bike Q-factors, Shimano offers two different cranks: M9100 with a 62-millimeter Q-factor for cross-over roadies and M9120 with a 68-millimeter Q-Factor for the rest of us. Some Boost-width frames will not be compatible with M9100 cranks.

XTR M9100 direct mount chainring
Direct-mount chainring: the steel lock ring shares the same tool pattern as Shimano's bottom bracket cups.


Direct-mount chainrings: Shimano may have been the last to see the light on direct-mount chainrings, but it's great to have them on board. The interface is a simple spline, similar to Centerlock brake rotors, but the threaded stainless steel retaining ring is much thinner. The retaining ring's spline drive is the same as Shimano's external bottom bracket cups, but Shimano recommends that installers use a dedicated tool that slips over the bottom bracket axle to prevent damage to the ring. The tool will be included with aftermarket cranksets.

XTR M9100
Shimano's modified narrow-wide chainring teeth fit like a ball and socket into the chain's radius-profiled inner plates. Reportedly, the chain runs quietly at extreme angles.

As mentioned, Shimano has done some modifications to the well-proven narrow-wide tooth profile, most of which are targeted at silencing the chatter created by the chainring teeth as they mesh with the chain while it is riding at the extreme ends of the cassette. Chainrings are aluminum, and the options are 30, 32, 34, 36 and 38 teeth for 1x drivetrains.

XTR M9100
The smaller sprocket of the two-chainring crankset attaches to the larger, direct-mount chainring.
XTR M9100 Monolever
Rapidfire Plus Mono shifter: One lever controls the front derailleur in both directions.

A 2x option? Not a lot of people want a front derailleur these days, but if you do, Shimano offers a two-chainring crankset with a 28-tooth low gear and a 38-tooth big ring. The smaller sprocket is fixed to the 38-tooth direct-mount chainring, so if your frame accepts a front derailleur and you decide in the future that you need to go back in time, you can retrofit a double to your 1x crankset.

XTR M9100
Completely new, the M9100 SGS rear derailleur has a carbon outer cage plate, larger, 13-tooth pulleys and revised geometry to minimize chain tension when the changer is nearing max capacity.



New Shift Lever and Rear Derailleur

Shimano has a stellar track record with rear derailleurs, so I'm confident the new XTR's shifting performance will continue that legacy. XTR M9100 has three options: A long cage SGS changer intended for the 10 x 51 and 10 x 45 tooth cassettes; a mid-cage GS changer that can be used for either the eleven speed or twelve speed, 10 x 45-tooth cassettes, and a special rear mech' for Shimano's 2x drivetrain, labeled RD-M9120, that also tops out at 45 teeth. Shimano notes that the mid-cage GS option also offers more ground clearance for 12-speed riders who have the legs to push a 45-tooth low gear.

XTR M9100
The new shift lever and a look at the improved I-Spec direct mount boss.
XTR M9100 shifters
Rubber pads on the thumb paddle and 20% faster shifts.

Highlights of the latest XTR rear derailleur are: reduced pulley tension in the lowest gears for less noise and friction; larger, 13-tooth jockey pulleys; a rubber cushion has been added to prevent the chain from buzzing the cage at full chain wrap-up; and the mechanism has been further trimmed to tuck it away from harm.

Upgraded shifters: Shimano responded to the many athletes who have been doctoring their shift levers with friction tape by adding a hydrophilic rubber pad on the thumb lever. Apparently, shifting effort has been reduced by 35 percent and shifting is 20-percent quicker. The I-Spec direct mount has been redesigned too (not backwards compatible with previous XTR), with a wider range of adjustment. I-Spec EV features 60-degrees of rotation and 14-millimeters of side-to-side adjustment. XTR 9100 shifters will also be sold with a discreet clamp. For those who choose the 11-speed cassette, the shifting pod has a switch that limits the 12-speed mechanism to 11. To make single versus multiple shifting more intuitive, the thumb lever's second click has been strengthened.
XTR M9100
The silver screw near the bottom of the housing toggles the shifter from 12 to 11 speeds.

2x drivetrain customers will receive Shimano's new "Rapifire Mono" shift pod for the left side of the handlebar, which uses only one lever to shift up to the big ring and release to the small sprocket. News is that the Mono lever is more intuitive to use and that's fine with us.

Drivetrain Prices and Weights

XTR M9100



XTR M9100
Shimano's new Scylence freehub mechanism dictates a larger drive-side spoke flange, so the rear hubs use a high-low flange configuration.


J-Bend and Straight-Pull Hubs

XTR M9100 hubs are available in three configurations, all in both Boost and non-Boost axle widths: M9110-B hubs have J-bend spoke flanges, and M9110-BS hubs feature straight-pull spoke flanges. Both styles require that the drive-side flange be slightly larger in diameter to clear the bulge necessary for the Scylence freehub ratchet-clutch. Because the straight-pull flanges can be drilled at different depths, wheels built with those hubs use same-length spokes. J-bend hubs, however, will require different-length spokes. The new Micro Spline design allows for larger-diameter axles (inside the hub), which should boost lateral stiffness.

XTR M9100
XTR M9110-BS hubs are designed for straight pull spokes and feature same-length lacing.

Wide-Flange rear hub: Riders who opt for XTR's 11-speed cassette will get some benefit from the dedicated wide-flange rear hub. The drive-side flange is moved outwards 4.7 millimeters, which reportedly boosts wheel stiffness and helps to balance spoke tension. Wide-flange is only available in the J-bend option and Boost, 148mm axle width. As a side note, all XTR hubs use Center Lock brake interfaces.

Non-series options: As mentioned earlier, Shimano will offer Boost-width hubsets that do not carry the XTR logos with both straight-pull and J-bend flanges. Non-series options will feature Scylence freehubs, and the J-bend style will use symmetric hub flanges.

Hub Prices and Weights

XTR M9100



XTR M9100
XTR M9100 cross-country brake levers are carbon and the master cylinder is magnesium.
XTR M9100
XTR M9120 Enduro brake levers and master cylinders are aluminum and push a larger fluid volume.


Redesigned Brakes

New Levers: The new XTR brake levers have moved the handlebar clamp inwards by about 25 millimeters, which creates space to tuck a dropper post lever or a suspension control inboard of the grip. Shimano says that the clamp placement saves weight without eroding strength. The lever blade is carbon and two versions will be offered. The lighter weight XC lever will not share the Enduro model's fast-acting Servo-Wave device. The XC master cylinders are magnesium, while the Enduro model's are aluminum.

Better modulation and more power: Shimano has been criticized for its abrupt braking action, so the new XTR stoppers have been re-tuned to hit softer and deliver a very linear feel as the lever is brought
Brake Features & Options:

• Lever clamp moved inboard
• Magnesium lever body (XC)
• Carbon lever for XC, aluminum for Enduro
• 2-piston XC caliper/4-piston Enduro caliper
• Enduro pads are interchangeable with Saint
• Enduro brake matches Saint power rating
• Compact cooling-fin design (Enduro only)
• New I-Spec EV direct-mount interface
• XC system weight: 204 grams (lever, hose & caliper)
• Enduro system weight: 277 grams
• New two-piece rotors: 140, 160, 180 & 203mm
to maximum power. Braking power has been boosted for both the XC and Enduro versions, with the Enduro brakes receiving the same power rating as Shimano's aging Saint DH brakes. Enduro levers have been tuned for faster engagement and a shorter free-stroke as well.

XTR M9100
Four-piston Enduro caliper.
XTR M9100 calipers
Two-piston XC caliper.

Two calipers: The new two-piston XTR XC caliper has been trimmed for weight savings with a smaller brake pad and a re-routed hose exit that does not require a banjo fitting. Ice-Tech fins are no longer an option. Four-piston Enduro calipers use a compact cooling fin design and retain the banjo fitting. Enduro brake pads are interchangeable with Saint, which should prove helpful for racers who are scrounging for spares in the pits.

Rotors: The full name is "Ice Technologies Freeza" construction, and it describes Shimano's combination of a sandwiched, stainless steel and aluminum brake rotor that features aluminum cooling fins. The Center Lock aluminum spiders are new, with a more rigid star shape, and the cooling fins are now black to shed heat faster. Sizes are: 140, 160, 180 and 203 millimeters.
XTR M9100 rotor

Brake Prices and Weights

XTR M9100



XTR M9100 pedals
XTR pedals have been widened slightly, and their contact areas have been lifted to stabilize the shoe.


Upgraded Pedals

Shimano refreshed both XTR pedals with enhanced contact points across the middle of the platform for a wider contact area. That was facilitated by raising the aluminum body slightly where the sole of the shoe contacts the outside faces on the pedal. To make it easier for Boost-spacing riders to transition from road bikes to mountain bikes, Shimano will offer the cross-country SL pedals with a shorter, 52-millimeter axle option that brings the Q-factor in line with their road racing pedals. Standard XTR SL pedals will retain the 55-millimeter length. SL pedal weights are 310 grams (52mm axle) and 314 grams (55mm axle). A one-millimeter cleat spacer is also included to fine-tune the shoe/pedal interface.

XTR Trail pedals received a similar treatment, but won't get the 52-millimeter axle option. The platform has been lengthened in the rear and widened across the middle with a raised platform to better stabilize the shoe. The one-millimeter cleat spacer is also included. Weight is pegged at 398 grams.

XTR M9100



Two New Toys

Adjustable top guide: If you've followed EWS enduro or World Cup cross country, you've probably seen a number of demi-style chain guides adorning the top of the chainring on 1x drivetrains. Shimano devised its own top guide. Suitably named, the SM-CD800 Chain Device can be obtained in three configurations to fit Shimano's high or low direct-mount front derailleur bosses, and there is one to fit ISCG-05 mounts. An adjustment dial lets the rider fine tune the guide to prevent chain rub without tools.

Cable style remote dropper lever: Those who insist on a full Shimano cockpit can now purchase the sharp-looking but not-quite-revolutionary SL-MT800 Seat Post Lever. Available only in I-Spec EV direct mount, it features ball bearing supported light action and a rubber padded thumb paddle. The cable is fixed at the lever, which means it can be easily configured to operate almost all cable-actuated dropper posts.
XTR M9100
Shimano's top guide has a lateral-adjustment dial.

XTR M9100

XTR M9100

XTR M9100


XTR 9100 will be available Fall 2018. A long-term review is in the works.



For more images, visit the XTR gallery.




586 Comments

  • + 301
 Welcome to the party, Shimano. Thanks for finally showing up.
  • + 94
 We're almost out of beer though, if you want to make a run before you start in Shimano, that would be super cool of you...
  • + 90
 Yep. Very nice. Just waiting for the new XT to show up.
  • + 87
 Sounds like XT is gonna be late too, someone text them and have them pick up some more chips & dip.
  • - 22
flag youknowitsus (May 25, 2018 at 8:43) (Below Threshold)
 So what do you guys think about the NEXT update to XTR in a few years? What will they improve upon after this latest release?
  • + 45
 @gnralized: I hope XT will shortly follow for us working stiffs. It appears to me XTR is more focused on the Pros and Dentists.
  • + 6
 @youknowitsus: moar standards
  • + 17
 Waiting to see the new Saint .. It shouldn't take long now
  • + 6
 @racecase: queso or salsa?
  • - 11
flag stylishskier (May 25, 2018 at 9:04) (Below Threshold)
 @youknowitsus: make it backwards freehub compatible I would hope. The new freehub, imo, is a deal breaker.

I am sure this will appeal to a large crowd of "need the newest and 'greatest'" consumers and Shimano fan bois, but is the average rider, AVERAGE, going to really outride a 30T/11-46 XT setup or 32T/11-46 (depending on wheel size and rider ability) - I seriously doubt it.

I've been pondering going back to 10sp Shimano/SRAM with a short cage derailleur based on my experiences with SRAM steel cassettes, but that might be just me... (I also value ground clearance of my rear mech)

Also, GX Eagle (yes I know, not the same class but who cares) is the best bang for the buck if you need 500% range (I don't for the terrain I ride). The mid range options are so good and long lasting these days, I honestly don't see the point in this new XTR for 99% of riders.

What do I think the next XTR update will be - hopefully something that makes sense, like a gear box drive... and not this pissing match nonsense of 1 extra tooth.

//end rambling, but this seems like a bunch of R&D for naught
  • + 32
 @stylishskier: Same; new freehub is a complete deal braker. I'm not ditching my $1700 wheelset when my only options are XTR or DT Swiss, just to spend even more on a complete new drivetrain. I'd like to know the story behind why they chose not to use the xD driver, the article mentions licensing, but I thought the license was open as everyone makes an xD driver hub these days?

I bet this is going to be REALLY slow to adopt as I don't even think the need the newest/best crowd will adopt it quickly due to the need for a new wheelset as well, until these hubs start being incorporated on OEM spec bikes, no one will have them and therefore no one will have new XTR, and how many bikes are specced OEM with XTR, only a handful...
  • + 8
 @rivercitycycles: actually, it's many tjat have worked and still do work-very hard that can afford xtr. I admire them.
  • + 5
 @stylishskier: Agree they need to trickle this down to XT and maybe even SLX pretty soon. OEM will probably swap some XX1 builds for XTR just to have the latest and greatest, but if the bulk are the sales are still going GX Eagle - how much should the OEM invest in maintain both drivetrain platforms on their builds.
  • + 2
 @tgent: it isnt going to be adopted on any high end builds when you can only use cheap shimano hubs, guess anyone running hubs by onyx, i9, CK, etc... will be locked into using SRAM or HG from now on.
  • + 5
 I hope @wolftooth is as stoked as I am for their aftermarket DM rings
  • + 5
 @Kitejumping: My point exactly. People won't buy it aftermarket because again high end hubs would need to be replaced, the exact market XTR is catering to, and it won't get specced OEM because few OEM builds use full XTR, and even if they do, given the option between full XTR with relatively crappy hubs or CK, i9, Onyx, etc, many will probably choose the better wheelset and XX1.
  • + 16
 @tgent: Or you'll see the opposite of what we sometimes saw with 1x11. Shimano drivetrains using SRAM cassettes.
  • + 1
 @stylishskier: I had the same issue when the XD driver came out. I was and am a SRAM fan (I like the shifting, okay don't hate), but the XD driver prevented me from upgrading during the season after I snapped an XO derailleur. I went with XT for that reason.

I was hoping this gen XTR could bridge the gap that SRAM opened with its XD driver. I know I'm cheap, but having to buy a wheelset with adaptable hubs or changing a hub/driver to simply switch the groupset is a issue to me.
  • + 1
 @mobaar: Agreed, wasn't that more common though? I knew more people running SRAM 11 spd cassettes because they were so much lighter than shimano. I assume this will work with 12 speed bits.
  • + 1
 @tgent: for sure aftermarket. I'm curious how much you'll see spec'ed that way on the OEM side.
  • + 2
 @mobaar: now that seems to solve the issue. nice.
  • + 2
 been using shimano all my life, will probably stay there for a while!!!
  • + 3
 @tgent: I think Its because DTswiss has likely some rights whatever. i reckon it wont take long before the others have them.

On OEM im not sure. but usually once shimano is back at the game the OEM market changes suddenly. and perhaps the real big change will be coming when XT hits the market. because XT will be the same apart from the material choices.
  • + 7
 So, SRAM 13 speed next month?
  • + 4
 @RecklessJack: No way Shimano will lock everyone out of their new freehub game. It would be shooting themselves in the foot. They aren't stupid. They know people like their bling.

Roll on 8100. Can't wait!
  • + 1
 @rivercitycycles: or anyone who takes the sport seriously, rides a lot, and has some expendable income...
  • + 1
 Those grips look cool..
  • + 5
 @tgent: it said there are going to non-series hub options for OEMs. DT Swiss and Bontrager have been working together for years.
Top End Treks are all on Shimano. GX Eagle is the highest end SRAM Trek offers.
Trek will be the first major OEM to adpot XTR and they sell a lot of bikes.
And Bontrager Carbon wheel options.

I'm gonna stick to my XT 11sp for a long time anyway, but I do like the new hub spline, and the new freehub mech is awesome, I have a 10sp Ultegra hub with a silent freewheel, I love coasting in silence.
  • + 2
 @rivercitycycles: in agreement mate, really hope this trickles down to XT too
  • + 1
 @SnowshoeRider4Life: Both please. And bean dip.
  • - 2
 And am I the only one that noticed the calipers are made of plastic and the rotors are mylar? I can't find these details mentioned in this article, but they were in a photo caption of the "So Secret" writeup above.

They may be fancy 3D printed plastic, but plastic nonetheless.
  • + 1
 @kabanosipyvo: Pretty sure those were for display purposes only.
  • + 1
 And just like that, I'm a Shimano fan again.....
  • + 5
 If an erection lasts over 4 hours you should seek medical treatment.
  • + 1
 @tgent: You don't need an entirely new wheelset. Depending on what your current hubs are, I bet you can just swap out the hubs. Otherwise, spokes aren't THAT expensive.
  • + 4
 @rivercitycycles: yup. XTR is nice. But paying $2k for just drivetrain and brakes is insane.
  • + 0
 @rivercitycycles: spot on...my dentist rides a xc bike, and he uses only xtr
  • + 2
 @rivercitycycles: I wonder if pink bike has any dentist readers anymore?? Exactly how did dentist become the whipping boys of nice bikes?? I always want to ask mine if he rides but I'm afraid he'd be too ashamed to admit it.
  • + 0
 @utley06: I think it's been a long time running joke. But my dentist road rides and has a really nice carbon road bike. I know he make a lot of money based on being a really good dentist and what he charges me to up keep my pretty smile Smile
  • + 1
 My mate's next door neighbour is a dentist and he has a quiver of carbon road bikes. I wonder if the dentist joke is also common on that side of cycling.
  • + 1
 @tgent: It’s Shimano! They are the masters of creating stuff that ONLY works with their stuff. While they do make reasonably good hubs, as does DT Swiss (very good really) to limit the choices really closes the market to a degree. People will pony it up! I’m sure the hubs are great, but as you said I’m not ditching my I9 hubs and carbon wheels for the cool, new shiny. I’ll stick to my standard hubset... thank you Shimano.
  • + 1
 @mobaar: or xtr derailleurs guiding sram chains on leonardi cassettes
  • + 2
 @Geof3: Those i9 hubs shit all over these new xtr joints. 7.6 degree engagement is crap.
  • + 1
 @youknowitsus:
12speed XTR for dirt jumpers #xcisthenewenduro
  • + 1
 @tgent: From how many companies other then Sram you could buy xD driver hub the moment Sram announced it? Just asking, considering that was obviously not deal breaker for you Wink
  • + 1
 @nvranka: Nah, I used to ride a truckload more when the best I could afford was SRAM X7 than I do now.
  • + 2
 @fecalmaster: yeah, love my I9’s! Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
  • + 2
 @rivercitycycles: Dentists are smarter than this... we ride SRAM!
  • + 0
 @tgent: possibly because their new design is better? you can't innovate without doing different things. If everyone just adopted the xD and stopped trying new things, then you'd never see anything get better.
  • + 1
 @conoat: True, but it remains to be seen if Shimano's driver is any better than xD, my guess is it is not. All it allows you to do is fit the 10 speed cog, which xD already does, and I'm betting they could have put that horribly named SCYLENSE hub tech into a hub with an xD driver. Innovation is good, changing standards without innovating, is bad.
  • + 1
 @tgent: xd ain't that good!
  • + 100
 Shimano has really dropped the ball in terms of 1x systems up until this point. A lot of this looks promising but not opening the freehub patent (like SRAM did with XD) seems like a huge miss.
  • + 21
 I was a bit confused about that myself- I have no real interest in running Shimano wheels (i9 & Hope fan) which kind of monkeys with the entire setup. I’m sure something will come along to remedy the issue, though. Perhaps Shimano is just delaying sharing it for some practical reason.
  • + 15
 @ninjatarian: I have i9'/Hopes as well. I REALLY wanted to return to Shimano after 2 years on Sram Eagle. I like SRAM and have enjoyed the wide range. However, I really prefer the Shimano 'feel' and reliability. That said, I know Shimano has some weird thing against sealed bearing hubs. Also, I don't want to give up the investment I already have in my current hubs. Fingers crossed they change their mind down the road in the near future
  • + 4
 So I guess I won't be able to upgrade my I9 hubs to fit the new 10-45 11 speed cassette?
  • - 7
flag honourablegeorge (May 25, 2018 at 8:42) (Below Threshold)
 It is an open standard... DT have a freehub coming, no doubt others will too
  • + 10
 Yea, not licensing out the freehub and letting other manufacturers make them seems like it'll keep a lot of folks from swapping over. That said, I don't think most people are going to run XTR anyway and those that are would probably be alright with XTR or DT hubs. At least they gave them decent engagement. I think what they do with XT will be the more important decision, more people are going to aim for the XT price point and it's more likely to end up on a wider range of bikes, so failing to provide a cassette that can be used on more than two type of hubs would be a bigger mistake.
  • + 4
 The article says that DT Swiss will use the same tech.
  • + 32
 Comment from I9
"We always try to have our products align with all market needs so out wheels can be used across the spectrum. Currently, we cannot manufacture this hub body, but hopefully Shimano will open this up shortly"
  • + 1
 @ybsurf: And that's a big problem, right?
  • + 5
 @enrico650: And a lot of hub makers licence DT Swiss tech like Giant, Roval and others.
  • + 19
 @bman33: They stick with cup and cone because they're an engineering-driven company. C&C bearings are much stronger laterally than sealed cartridges. They're also easier to maintain, easier to seal, and more tolerant of variance in manufacturing and assembly. A disadvantage of C&C is that the inner cup generally isn't replaceable, so it's important to watch for signs of contamination before pitting occurs.
  • + 2
 Totally agree, I can't believe they decided that was the right way to go. If they had released this when SRAM released xD, they would have been fine, but so many people have switched over to xD at this point and they are so late to the game. I'd like to hear the backstory why they didn't use xD, the article mentions licensing, but I too thought the license was open as so many other companies are producing it. It's going to be super slow to adopt until the hub gets more widespread.
  • + 5
 @alexdi: To that point you could use angular contact bearings and get some of the benefits of cup and cone while still having easily replaceable bearings.
  • + 12
 @tgent: Absolutely no chance in hell SRAM is going to license XD to Shimano. That would be suicide.
  • + 31
 Why cant you just use an Eagle Cassette with XTR components? Seems pretty obvious to me.
  • - 1
 @alexdi: Yes...if not for the lack of adaptability, Shimano hubs would be the final word. Cup-and-cone is easier and cheaper to maintain, lighter, and far more durable than cartridge bearing. Literally the only disadvantage is the lack of adaptability...unfortunately that's a deal killer in most cases.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: For me, the biggest drawback of cup and cone is shop mechanics who don't have a clue how to setup them properly even if it's pretty simple.
  • + 2
 Yes but like we have seen in the past it may just leave room in the market for smaller companies to manufacture compatible cassettes that fit on existing systems bypassing the need to use their freehub system. Seems the easier route. It's a shame though as shimano offerings over the past few years have hit the nail on the head with reliability, price and function. Add range to this and they would have been golden. It's hard to compete with the cost and performance of xt- or even slx.
  • + 6
 @alexdi: Agree with the lateral loads. However, cone and cup gets contaminated too easily in many conditions and once a ball is pitted or the cup is, the hub is toast. I had a few XT's over the years that this happened. Sealed bearings, pop them out and replace. Your hub is still good. Back to the lateral loads/strength....I don't see any issues in the DH world with sealed cartridge bearings. Shimano stuff is great. Myself, I'll most likely never run loose ball bearings/cup & cone again on any of my bikes.
  • + 5
 @bman33: All good stuff in here. I think given the choice, people will pick their Hope/i9/Onyx/whatever crazy hub over the new XTR. Hopefully they get the other players involved. Glad I have DTs tho ;P
  • - 2
 @bman33: This has not been my experience. I've found that cartridge bearing hubs get contaminated faster. Plus, you can kill your hubshell just in the process of pressing out old bearings or pressing in new ones. Combine that with the inherent cost of cartridge bearing hubs plus the tools needed to change those bearings, and you can buy two, three, sometimes four Shimano hubs before you spend as much.
  • + 6
 @TheRaven: Everyone has their own experience. With that, I work as a pro wheel builder with a known shop in the BMX world all throughout the 90's and early 2000's. We hit most all the NORBA series races and countless BMX nationals and local events. Plus a buddy of mine was a World Cup mechanic for Shimano riders. Too many wasted loose ball hubs gone due to pitted bearings/ cups. I can remove and replace cartridge bearings with simple, inepensive tools in half the time or less it takes to repack and adjust ball bearing hubs. On the cost issue, I have set of 10 year old Hope hubs that have only had one set of bearings replaced. The shells are always good to go.
  • + 1
 @panzer103: Is it compatible? spacing the same?
  • + 7
 @TheRaven: You live somewhere dry, right? Here in the PNW, your bearings WILL get toasted if you ride at all in the winter (or in last weekends insane slopfest at Raging River opening party). I prefer not to have to throw out my hub in a couple years when this happens. Cartridge for the win. Shimano bearing systems do last longer, but when they're done, they're trash, and you better well stay on top of maintenance.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Sram XD is open for anyone, including Shimano.
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: Bearings are cheap. Tools needed to change cartridge bearings? Hammer and screwdriver.
If you kill the hubshell after pressing in your ninth set of bearings I'm ok with that.
  • + 4
 Agreed; I was all set to covet this but the need for a new hub, and fact that freehubs won't be available for non-DT Swiss users is a deal breaker.

Anyone who loves Shimano but pines for more gear range, try a Garbaruk wide-range cassette. Very light, cheaper than SRAM, more linear gear jumps than Shimano's 11-46, and fits a Shimano freehub to boot. I'm running 11-48 with standard XT and it's excellent.
  • + 2
 @ybsurf: I mean, you could always hop on a 9-46 11spd cassette with them though (e13)
  • + 0
 @JustinVP: I live in the Northeast. Not as wet as the PNW, but still wet. But I think you misunderstand what I am saying...i've found both hub types to need servicing, just that the cartridge bearing hubs tend to go faster. Also while the cup-and-cone hubs are a quick disassemble/clean/regrease/tension job, for the cartridge hubs I need to order bearings, and have a bearing puller (good sets are like $200) to be able to change them out.
  • + 17
 @pbuser50757: No. XD is FREE, not OPEN. Very big difference. SRAM still needs to license it to other makers...they just don't collect royalties.
  • + 4
 @TheRaven: I have a set of bearing tools I purchased from i9 for I believe $60 including the press for installation. . Very few hubs require a $200 tool to pull cartridge bearings out. After all, they are spent bearings. Experienced mechanics can craft their own for way less. As mentioned by a few above, a good cartridge hub can last over a decade with fresh bearings and the occasional cassette rebuild. Working in a wheel shop for 10+ years I rebuilt countless of both types.

If lose ball works for you, great. However, cartridge bearings are far easier to remove and install than loose balls. it's a myth you need several hundred $$ in tools to work on them.
  • - 4
flag Veloscente (May 25, 2018 at 12:11) (Below Threshold)
 Not to mention buying XTR level hubs gets you centerschlock rotors crammed down your throat at the same time. I love Shimano shifting ergonomics, but haven't run their hubs in 20 years, and will never, ever, run self-loosening, proprietary CL rotors as long as foolproof 6-bolt exists.
  • + 5
 @TheRaven: there is no defending cup and cone. The only people who can keep them in good shape are MTB equivalents of LARPers. Even bike mechanics ai know cannot be bothered with them. They will fail in a matter of 0,5-3years for 99% of population. I was paranoid about mine yet all It took was one ride with loose or seized bearing.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: MTB LARP'ers lol. Cheers
  • + 4
 @Veloscente: CL rotors have issues but 6-bolt rotors aren't foolproof either.
I've had my 6 bolt loctitied rotors loosen up a scary amount.
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: “MTB LARP’ers” FTW.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: It's the $500 cartridge bearing hubs that need "defending", not cheap Shimanos.
  • + 4
 @bman33: ...and Shimanos can be done with a $10 set of cone wrenches and grease....in 10 minutes. I'm sorry but there's just no comparison.
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: 1000's riders and racers over the last 20+ years beg to differ. Again, if they work for you, awesome. But to say a set of cartridge hubs isn't worth it when they can last decades is laughable. And for example the current gen of XTR (not the newest ones) hubs will run you $315 the cheapest I have seen online. XT for less, but then you are saying buy 3-4 sets of those. Wheel rebuild each time? Those get tossed in a landfill I suppose?
  • + 2
 @alexdi: not entirely true. Your maintenance claim is true though. But sealed bearings can be stronger if a radial bearing is used in the correct location (a hub is not the correct location). Angular contact bearings, on the other hand, are. The main drawback is that angular contacts are directional - meaning correct side outboard. If they’re installed incorrectly they’ll just fall apart pretty much instantly.

On another note, hardly any bearings in cycling are sealed. 99.99% are shielded bearings.

Sorry to be rant-like. Bearings are (admittedly one of many) a pet peeve of mine.
  • + 1
 @sutter2k: I dont know but im sure it work fine.
  • + 0
 @TheRaven: if you can service a Shimano hub in 10 minutes and then touch it in next 6 - 12 months, when you feel like it, then you are an outlier, I can tell you that and you have to trust me on it. You are amazing.
  • + 0
 @POWsLAYER: @stylishskier yeah but I'll wait I'll put a oneup on my car 11-40 and will see when thanks worned out how things are might be time for new bike anyway
  • + 4
 @pbuser50757: Agree. I'd be surprised if there's any IP on the XD interface...I mean it's just another spline interface, nothing novel there. I have to believe this is more about Shimano saving face in not saying 'OK, SRAM got it right and we'll just used there interface since 75% of the market is on it already'
  • + 2
 @tcmtnbik: I think it's more about Shimano still pretending they control the industry. They are too proud to use SRAMs technology, but they are years late to the game and everyone else is already using it.
  • + 9
 @bman33: Shimano hubs are "sealed" bearings. I'm guessing you are referring to the angular contact design over single row ball bearings?

Angular contact bearings are, and always will be, superior to single row cartridges for the bicycle hub application, which is why Shimano continues to stick with it. (unless of course they cave to consumer pressure for "Sealed" bearings or cartridges etc) They can handle more force from more angles, and the pre-load is adjustable.

The reason the whole bike industry went away from them is money. It's much easier (read cheaper) to machine hubs and axles for 68XX series single row bearings (no need for threads or other methods of pre-load adjustments). No need to machine an area for seal sets either. The preload is basically done with the shoulder dimensions machined into the axles or specific spacer widths between the bearings. It's also arguably, a sort of hack, which some companies mess up from time to time. Some hubs always seem to have some 'play' despite being assembled properly, are the result of the two bearings being perfectly centerline with the inner and outer races. It's technically correct to have the centerlines this way but in a bike hub application it's no buenos to have any play at all. (Which 68XX have from factory, play with the inner races of some in your hand and see) Hub manufacturers actually have to have the inner and outer race centerlines a bit offset to provide the preload neccesary to make a hub with no play. This is technically incorrect, but it works and isn't really causing enough force to cause 'very' premature bearing failures. This is the reason that cartridge bearings only last a season or two under lots of ride before needing new ones. Shimano's bearing setup if cleaned once in awhile will last years if not decades.

The seals on the other hand just went from hub seals made or specified by the hub manufacturer (Shimano) to the third party seals that can be specified by the hub maker when ordering bearings. (The 2RS part of the bearing code 68XX 2RS is 2 rubbing seals) Shimano hubs have great seals. As good as any seal that comes in an off the shelf bearing. There's plenty of old shimano hubs rolling around out there for decades that just need a fresh re-pack and a quick adjustment then they are good for another decade.

I'd have to agree with the crowd about dropping the ball on the free hub splines. However, XTR has always been a group for rich early adopters and the most tech savvy or elite XC folk. If by the time the XT version of this stuff comes out, Shimano hasn't opened up the licence, they will have an issue.
  • + 1
 @mitchbike: Not referring to angular contact bearings at all. Shimano are 'sealed' in a sense they have the cone, cover and some type of rubber seal or O-ring around the cone /hub interface. You can call the cone 'angular' in this application if you will. That said, if you are going to run loose ball bearing hubs, Shimano is best at that game no doubt.
I am talking about cartridge sealed bearings that everyone is familiar with. The same that i9, Hope, DT, Mavic and countless others have used for decades with zero issues. As I mentioned earlier, I worked in a wheel shop for years and rebuilt everything from Walmart to Chris King. We also had our own sealed bearing BMX hubs ( and proto MTB) that were CNC machined to accept sealed cartridge hubs. Yes, you can 'fine tune' a loose ball bearing hub. And yes, IF, and that is a big IF, you disassemble and repack loose ball bearing hubs (time consuming and can get messy with the grease) you can make those last a while. However, those in wet climates with lots of grime and grit can easily get one or two grains in the race and score/scar the cup...hub us crap even with new bearings and cones. Sealed cartridge hubs, bearings go bad, pop them out, press new ones in, done. I can remove and replace two full sets up bearings in cartridge hubs in the time it takes to do one set of loose ball bearings hubs. And that is in shop conditions, not home mechanic conditions.
Agree with you on the point of the licensing on the new spline. They need to make that happen or they will lose customers no doubt.
  • + 2
 @tcmtnbikr: xd drivers cant work with the way shimano has always done their casettes, several alloy carriers with ti and steel cogs.
  • + 1
 It's not a big deal. As people have said, there are many hub and cassette options. I would not let that put me off getting involved in this new goodness. Also loving how they have replicated road bike Q factor. That is another great idea to get the most out of my painstakingly set up cleats and footbeds, further adding to the value of this system.
  • + 2
 @bman33: Well, we shall have to agree to disagree on a few points.

I claim that I can indeed clean and re-pack a loose ball bearing hub faster than you can whip out your slide hammer and bearing press tools. However, we will never know as this contest of re-building speed will never happen. I'm making this claim because I also worked in a bike shop (not a wheel shop, but I've done a 'few' hub rebuilds as well).

My second point is the 'IF' part of your statement. Why 'IF'? If you are willing to press in new cartridge bearings from time to time when they fail, why would you not be willing to do preventative maintenance once in awhile? In my experience working in shops it's because people do failure replacement not preventative maintenance. I suppose I am making an argument in your favor here...cartridges are better when you are addressing failures instead of checking your parts once in awhile to see if they are good to go.

Maybe companies should make us both happy and just use these?

www.skf.com/ca/en/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/angular-contact-ball-bearings/single-row-angular-contact-ball-bearings/index.html

If Shimano went this way they could continue to claim superiority AND make them adjustable/failure replaceable.
  • + 3
 The downside to Shimano C&C hubs that you're all missing is that they change their cone profile with every new hub and then stop making replacement cones for previous models. Which completely invalidates any maintenance/rebuild advantages. Your fancy XT(R) hub is useless if you can't get cones for it.
  • + 1
 @ybsurf: i guess Shimano gonna have to make an extra beer run since you apparently drank them all.
  • + 1
 @tacker: Agreed, but one of the premises of my argument is that IF you do maintenance (yearly for example). The chances of you ever needing cones goes way down.
  • + 1
 @POWsLAYER: yep, this seems the best option. And no doubt we will see more 12 speed cassettes now too.
  • + 2
 Cup and cone is fine by me. My dad's bike has 1994 xt and he is still on the original Huns, which he changes the balls in every year. They aren't as bad as everyone here makes out.
  • + 4
 @mitchbike: touche and kudos. I appreciate your candor and healthy debate. Agree to disagree. Cheers
  • + 0
 I actually stopped reading the article when I got to the part of 'not compatible'... totally fed up with this bike industry producing parts that are incompatible with a anything else. It is the art of producing waste and landfill 2-3 years later when the need to upgrade arises!
  • + 2
 @bman33: the point is, I don't want to service my non-replaceable bearings. I want to replace them. Cheaply and easily
  • + 3
 @tgent: Probably the reason why Shimano didn’t adopt XD and developed Micro Spline is this:

“it allows the use of stand-alone cassette cogs”

It makes if you’re looking to reduce the complexity in mass producing a cassette and therefore (hopefully) the price to the end consumer.
  • + 1
 @y0eddy: well there’s little for Sram to be proud of with XD driver since those things aren’t perfect by any means. They get seized, talk to any bike mechanic who has seen many of them
  • + 1
 I think if Shimano is dumb enough to lock out their free hub design to the open market then you'll see a lot of people running SRAM cassettes.
  • + 1
 @grldm3: why would they? Sram cassettes are either shit (NX, GX, X1) or cost more than XT drivetrain package (shifter, mech, cassette). The only reason it was worth doing Sram was weight and 10t cog, IF you already had the XD driver. Without it you buy a conplete SLX drivertrain incl crankset for the price of Eagle X01. Now after Shimano made this? Go fk yourself sram, your expensive cassettes, soft actuation and shitty plastic rear mechs. All costing billions. And when XT and SLX comes out, booom! They may want to (E)tap out. If Sram wants to be back
They better bring back quality of 9sp X0 or at least 10sp X0. I want to hear those cling clang clongs like reloading a Kalashnikov.
  • + 0
 @TheRaven: SRAM has made xD an open standard. You can download the engineering drawings at www.xddriverbody.com.

The ostensible reason for Shimano not using xD is that it requires a one-piece cassette (or two, if you do something clever like e.thirteen), thus setting a minimum price for the cassette (even the stamped-and-pinned GX Eagle cassette is way more expensive than an SLX loose-cog cassette).

But the real reason is that Shimano is just too proud to adopt a new standard introduced by SRAM. If Shimano ever goes to an oversized crank spindle, it will probably be 29.88 mm.
  • + 3
 @bcmanucd: It STILL has to be licensed from SRAM. It's free, and it's not top secret. But you must obtain permission from SRAM in order to produce an XD freehub.

You will find it referenced in other sites' articles about M9100. It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with SRAM, smartly, not wanting an extremely vital piece of IP produced by a very powerful competitor. There's no emotion, nor conspiracy. Just very smart business.
  • - 1
 @TheRaven: If they really wanted to use it they would have set up a Chinese subsidiary, thereby negating the necessity to licence sram's IP.
  • + 56
 Another I-spec standard, 2 more freehub standards and a new chainring mounting standard.

I really don’t like Sram, but this is getting stupid.
  • + 17
 yeah. lets stock up on 11sp clearances
  • + 10
 if you see new standard, they blew it. was hoping shimano would do a new standard, but open - then it would be used everywhere. with this, only further market fragmentation.
  • + 20
 My bet is Shimano drops the old style cassette body they have used for 30 years across the line soon enough. Then, THAT will be the Shimano freehub and Sram will be the XD. I actually like the new spline. Don't like/want it, don't buy it.
  • + 2
 The current free-hub standard will fade away ... eventually.
  • + 15
 @bman33: The issues is that aside from DT swiss they aren't licensing it out to anyone. Which makes it rather dead on arrival, SRAM and Sunrace must be jumping for joys, since if you want King, I9, Hope, E13, White Ind, Ringle, Joytech or any hub that isn't Shimano or DT you are coming to them for your drivetrain now. How good of a system it may be is irrelevant if you can't get the parts to use it. Nice to see Shimano going back to the Octalink days and shooting themselves in the foot.
  • + 4
 @Fix-the-Spade: Knowing a few people I know in the industry, I bet that changes with the next model year. I agree it will be a shame if they don't. My bet is that is does happen soon enough
  • + 5
 Srams matchmaker has been remarkably consistent for years. The one thing that needed changing was rotor size to 200mm, cause Shimano sure as duck don't sell a 21.5mm post mount adaptor.
  • + 2
 @bman33: The old cassette standard may be gone on high end bikes, but isn't disappearing on cheap bikes. Too expensive to produce.

The big fails are the new chainring standard, new crank design, and especially not working with SRAM on the xd driver. Shimano is putting themselves in a small corner after being so many years late to the party.
  • + 7
 More business for the likes of sunrace and oneup!
  • + 11
 @Flowcheckers: I disagree. The freehub standard is an issue. I understand that they needed to move on to something new and couldn't license XD...but why not open up the new standard to everyone? It's absolutely crazy not to.

Also a new I-spec is completely unnecessary.

Raceface, Absolute Black, and Wolftooth have already announced chainrings for the new crankset...everyone else will follow very quickly, and aside from that remember Shimano makes some of the best cranks in the business. Their alloy cranks are lighter than almost all the competing carbon options out there, and more durable too.
  • + 4
 They'll license the hub standard as soon as there is an XT version out.
  • + 1
 @Bahh: there is a 180 to 203 caliper spacer. it is just a bit taller than 160 to 180
  • + 1
 @bman33: Soon enough when they are already to late?
  • + 1
 @Flowcheckers: "Putting themselves in a small corner." Really? This is Shimano. If their corner is small, the sram corner must be tiny.
  • + 1
 @jaame: SRAM has approx 80% of the high end MY19 MTB market already sewn up. Shimano are showing up the morning after the night before.
  • + 2
 @Cam86: Shimano makes more in fishing than all Sram MTB. They will be ok
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: could Shimano also have a licensing deal with DT that requires exclusivity for a certain time frame? Just conjecture, but Shimano may have reasons beyond being crazy.
  • + 1
 @ecologist: They have an exclusive trade agreement stating fireworks must be sent to Switzerland every week for the next 24 months.
  • + 35
 Scylence freehub? Doesn't Shimano know that all the coolest Pinkbike videos have REALLY LOUD freehub sounds added in post processing?

There will be no VOD with Shimano wheels in the future. (there probably wasn't many in the past either)
  • + 66
 I'm one of the select few that prefers quiet or silent freehubs. I grease the crap out of mine to make them as quiet as possible. Loud freehubs sound like Wal-Mart bikes to me.
  • + 6
 SAINT will still be noisy.
  • + 13
 @TheRaven: agree, I also hate loud freehubs. I dont want for people to hear me when I run them over on my race run to cappucino in city centre on my enduro war machine
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: im right there with ya. So if i have 1x11 XT, can i upgrade just the 11spd cassette and hub or are my derailleur/shifter not compatible with this new cassette? I missed this part
  • + 1
 @Jimmy0: New stuff is 12-speed, so you need at the very least the hub/freehub, cassette, and shifter...then it depends on the leverage ratio of the RD...the M8000 derailleur has the capacity for 51t but if the leverage ratio has changed for 12-speed then you will need the new RD also.

Instead of changing out your hub you could just use an Eagle cassette if you have XD currently, or a Sunrace CSMZ90 if you have the current Shimano freehub.
  • + 8
 onyx.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: i have the current shimano freehub, but it needs replacing anyway. Is the "Lightweight" not 11sd?
  • + 0
 @Jimmy0: yes but it's from the 12-speed series, so it will have 12-speed cog pitch...meaning that the m9000 shifter and possibly derailleur too will not work.
  • + 7
 @TheRaven: I now rock only Onyx rear hubs on my bikes because of this. Silence is fantastic.
  • + 0
 @TheRaven: gotcha, thanks
  • + 7
 @cyrways: I use DT Swiss star ratchets with their "custom" grease...lots of it. It's completely silent.
  • + 2
 It'll be nice for us who may or may not ride illegal trails and don't want a freehub to alert the, uh, authorities to our presence. Would buy.
  • + 7
 @gumbytex: because the hub is how people get caught
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: I also prefer silent freehubs. Unless I ride a DJ bike... then I want the buzzzzz
  • + 0
 @Jimmy0: when you're on an illegal trail 5 yards from a road that rangers patrol, yes, it can be.
  • + 2
 They don't mention cog spacing or cable pull at all. I wonder if these will be backward compatible with 11 speed. I doubt it.

Remember when you could use any combo of shifters, cassettes and derailleurs from seven to nine speed? Great days. This constant messing with cable pull is annoying. Also I don't like the one key release crank bolts. Other than that I'm all about this new stuff. Can't wait to switch to XT 8100 next year now.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: The sound of silence coasting fast through a Forrest is something that makes me want these hubs, owning 3x DT Swiss 350 hubs I really hope the freehub assembly will retro fit, that would be sweet next year I'll likely be getting to time to replace my GX 10-42's.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I need some of this grease, I've a standard hub and one with the ratchet upgrade and that's max noise for me, sometime the standard hub sounds almost silent, I put it down to the ratchet be nice if it's as simple as type of grease.
  • + 29
 So for over $1,000 I can get a 12 speed drivetrain with a cassette that doesn't work on my wheelset, chainrings that don't work on my cranks, and a shifter that doesn't work with my brakes. I'll stick with XT thank you very much.
  • + 13
 Sunrace has a 12spd cassette that fits on a standard Shimano hub... and soon a full drivetrain from them will be here too
  • + 2
 word.
  • + 1
 Gotta replace those $3k enves with Chris King hubs for XTR wheels on DT Swiss!!
  • + 3
 @2bigwheels: That 12 speed cassette is a massive boat anchor though...It's almost 600g. It's cheap but goddamn it's heavy.
  • + 5
 @covekid: lol true but remember.

CHEAP. LIGHT. STRONG...... Pick two
  • + 3
 @covekid: Yeah, even the GX cassette is only 450g
  • + 4
 How is this different from anything else?
  • + 4
 @covekid: ya let's add another 3/4 lb of unsprung weight.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: and will last half the time the Sunrace will... The sunrace cassettes arent light but they last and too me thats what wims the component race.... Longevity
  • + 29
 Shimano just dropped the mic.
  • + 41
 Shimano just dropped the ball...
  • - 4
flag tgent (May 25, 2018 at 9:21) (Below Threshold)
 Dropped the mic or the ball?
  • + 23
 @tgent: I see "mic". Is this one of those "laurel or yanni" tests?
  • + 5
 @TheRaven: Ha we shall see, if my comment gets downvoted to hell, then it must be Mic, if upvoted, ball. Lol and yes I believe it is a Laurel or Yanni. I'm in the ball/Laurel camp with the new hub standard.
  • + 6
 The Shimano mic is jumbled with new standards and SRAM already stole the ball from them years ago.
  • + 10
 Dropped the mic on their balls?
  • + 1
 @chezotron: dropped their balls on the mic
  • + 25
 "Before you run to the comment section..." You're out of touch, RC. Why would you put a warning in the article, expecting people to read part way through, and then comment? Most people just go straight to the comments. Razz
  • + 39
 What was this article about? I don't know how but I just arrived here.
  • + 18
 Shot straight down to the comments myself. Who's RC?

Also...how surprising!!! We just barely saw spy shots, how odd that they have a full write up already. Said no one on pinkbike ever.
  • + 7
 @TomCastellani: What's an article? Isn't this just a comments site?
  • + 1
 @TomCastellani: What article?
  • + 1
 @TomCastellani: New standards or someshit. I dont know. Just riot.
  • + 21
 All looks great except for the hub driver that won’t work with any other hubs except maybe DT. Gotta license that out big S. You might have a winner if you do, a loser if you don’t. You don’t have the near monopoly you once had in the 90’s. You can’t just crush all the third party hub/ wheel companies out there. They will align with the other company pushing you out the door. Or am I missing something here?
  • + 7
 And all of them are already aligning to the xD driver, prime example being E Thirteen.
  • + 4
 Problem is why would those partners even use/purchase the license? Why do the R&D and development for only a few (relatively) custom builds that can support this? Without a "GX" style option, there will be no OEM builds other than the ultra-expensive ones. At that point, it'd be tough to choose that over Eagle when functionally they will be similar (GX is surprisingly good). I just don't see how Shimano creates a large enough customer base for this to make sense for the rest of the industry to invest into. There will be some of course but I don't expect much for a while.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: Totally agree, you won't see this out in the wild outside of sponsored pros until they release XT and the hubs start getting specced on OEM builds.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: hard to spend more than GX. I’d rather spend money on better brakes, wheels, a custom suspension tune, etc... than barely perceptible shifting gains and 200g of weight savings, when you can save more weight for the same money elsewhere.
  • + 22
 Glad to hear my mega boost can finally be micro splined...there used to be no cure for that...
  • - 3
 COD (comment of the day)
  • + 5
 @huntstyle: call of duty?
  • + 3
 @cole-bikeva: Someone called for me?
  • + 21
 Great, another I-spec "standard." My own bikes aren't even cross-compatible.
  • + 20
 Shimano fishing reels are still better than Sram's.
  • + 2
 Perfect for both spinner and crank baits.
  • + 1
 @OriginalDonk: their fly rods are quite possibly the best ever as well. The name is just awful tho. Asquith lol
  • + 18
 So you won't let I9 license the freehub design? Are you mental? Chris King, I9, Hope, you need to respond please.
  • + 2
 for real
  • + 4
 The new gear is supposedly not even available until fall, I bet by then they'll license it out to King, I9 & Hope. I sure as hell hope they do anyway, or they're going to lose even more sales.
  • + 2
 I agree that’s leaving a lot of $$$$ on the table by edging out major hub manufacturers.
  • + 1
 Ya just bought a Chris king wheelset run di2 would love to try out the 11s cassette with ramps for both up and down shifts.
  • + 2
 Give it time young skywalker. Shimano is a big, slow moving corporation and while they may be slow and methodical, they are smart.
  • + 1
 I feel like this is an "Old Guard" attempt to have OEM spec wheels on top end builds and I get that. They want people to see XTR wheelsets on dentists bikes. But in the custom market they are gonna loose out to XD, which is not often just a cassette. I feel like the majority of people with XTR money buy custom wheels. I don't dislike DT Swiss, but I prefer I9 or Chris King made in the USA.
  • + 1
 @kilz: let's hope so
  • + 2
 @MikeAzBS: the problem is that those people building a high end bike often already have wheels and hubs and want to move them to their new build.
  • + 4
 @Svinyard: Exactly, and for example someone like me, who had been waiting for a new Shimano XTR 12 speed, can't just buy a new $80 I9 freehub for new Shimano 12 speed. Which means 1. Gonna use an XX1 cassette if spacing is the same. Or 2. Not gonna buy any of it at all.
What I'm 100% not gonna do is ditch my USA made I9 hubs.
  • + 1
 @kilz: by the time Shimano actually brings this to market, SRAM will be ready with their next gen XX option, maybe Eagle tap, maybe something else. Shimano’s slow pace just keeps them further behind in a market that generally wants the newest.

This closed design of a new hub standard is either an attempt to surrender the cassette market to others, or a way to ensure that almost no one buys this aftermarket.
  • + 1
 @MikeAzBS: At the launch, Shimano said that they had not plans to make XTR branded wheels, just hubs. I imagine that a number of wheel makers will offer that option until Micro Spline susses out.
  • + 18
 It goes to 51!
  • + 8
 Dont even look at it, but this one goes to 12
  • + 2
 @racecase: I guess 11 wasn't loud enough.
  • + 6
 @drummuy04: yes but in a strange turn of events, 12 is silent.
  • + 13
 I can't wait to buy this online for 10% less then my local bike shop can get this for. @shimano fix your pricing structure and I'll switch back from sram to shimano. I love your stuff but you devalue it by letting retailers manipulate your pricing schemes.
  • + 13
 So you can't wait to buy it online for 10% less than your LBS gets it but you won't switch back from sram until they fix their pricing structure and you can't get it cheaper online than in your LBS? Interesting...
  • - 5
flag minimusprime (May 25, 2018 at 10:13) (Below Threshold)
 @bosnianrider: They must not have sarcasm where you live. LBS 4 Lyfe.
  • + 6
 @minimusprime:
>not buying online in 2018

lul
  • + 4
 @minimusprime: We have sarcasm and crappy LBS also, so I'm buying Shimano online for 10% less than they get it and I'm fine with that...
  • + 14
 So they finally have a new 4 piston caliper design - so can we expect new saint in the future?
  • + 29
 8-piston Saint brakes that you can stop a car with!
  • + 5
 The "old" 4 piston caliper was launched like 2-3 months ago in the form of BR-M8020.
  • + 8
 Xt already has one and it's sick! Modulation is remedied!
  • + 15
 Holy shit.... I WANT IT ALL
  • + 15
 Nice Evil. Also super excited for a silent freehub
  • + 3
 Yeah nobody’s looking at that pimped up glossy Evil. 2019 model??
  • + 13
 "...and the cooling fins are now black to shed heat faster."

Eh...
  • + 2
 laughed at that Wink
  • + 1
 I saw that too...and I was thinking...um...what? Never have I found myself thinking "you know this heatsink would work a lot better if I painted it black".
  • + 1
 paint the whole damn thing black! would work like crap, but hey its cooler!
  • + 7
 black actually radiates heat better than original raw "color"
make sense to use black here as they probably care about even 1 degree difference
  • + 14
 It's a real thing--heat radiates best from dark colors. Not that it's a large factor on something that's spinning around in free air (convection cooling) all the time...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink#Surface_color
  • + 3
 @wubbalubbadubdub: interesting. always thought things in dark colors tend to heat faster (ie. in sunglight).
  • + 8
 @strasznyzbigniew: they do, but dark colors also lose heat faster
  • + 4
 @Asmodai: doesn't that depend on the material and doesn't paint add a layer of insulation, which would slow down the heat dissipation. I didn't have physics in a while, but that's just pure logic.
  • + 4
 @pooceq: it's not a paint it's a thin anodized layer
i dont know if all materials behave the same (im pretty sure they do) but black aluminium is gonna radiate heat off faster than finished raw (and raw has also layer of oxide)

its not a big difference for this kind of application but as i said any improvement is welcome here
  • + 1
 shimano Doors fans...
  • + 1
 @Asmodai: Anodize is a layer of oxide. It literally is forced oxidation with color added.
  • + 1
 @wubbalubbadubdub: Exactly my point. The amount of heat loss to radiant cooling is going do be a fraction of a percent of the heat loss to convective cooling. The ano is wasted effort.
  • + 1
 @Fresh1:
yes thats why i said "raw has also layer of oxide"
both have, one is with color other is natural
  • + 1
 @Asmodai: shimano doesn't f*ck around with this stuff. It must be true if they are doing it. Just don't leave your bike parked up facing the sun or your discs will overheat before you even move!
  • + 9
 Wow, pretty disappointed. I prefer Shim to SRAM but the hub is the deal breaker. They needed to either adopt xD as it is so common now and they are so late to the game, or keep their old hub design. I'm not ditching my $1700 wheelset with my only options XTR or DT Swiss wheels to spend another $1000+ switching to XTR. I get standards change, but they basically just changed every standard associated with the drivetrain/hub after everyone already made the transition to xD. Oh and 10-45t is heavier than SRAMs 10-50, so congrats on that 511% range.
  • + 7
 I agree this new hub standard is absolutely a deal breaker and will ultimately be a huge failure, both mechanically and in the marketplace. Just look at how unreliable Shimano's new free hubs have been over the last decade.

People have been buying $300+ rear hubs and $1000+ wheelsets for the last 5 years, they just bought boost, and now they have to buy a whole new standard with limited options? Yeah, that will go over well.

If they offered an 11-46 10-speed cassette that was around 300g and under $200, I'd be all over it, plus I'd probably buy the new crank and rear derailleur to go with it.

This is coming from a Shimano fan, BTW.
  • + 5
 @redsled137: No gaurantee that the new cranks will work with your frame tho either.
  • + 5
 I trust Shimano way more than sram. If anyone should adopt a "standard" then it would probably have to be sram. That said, freehub bodies are relatively cheap and easy to swap out. Like swapping out a chainring so I don't know why anyone would get ruffled up about it. Boost required you to buy an entire new bike.....
  • + 1
 @lemonaid: Cheap and easy to swap out assuming shimano allows other people to license the technology. The article said so far only DT swiss is allowed to use it. The question then becomes are you willing to restrict yourself to only shimano or DT hubs if you want to use a modern shimano drivetrain. I can understand being upset if shimano doesn't allow the likes of chris king and hope and such to use their freehub.

that said maybe shimano/sram cassette spacing will continue to be compatible and you can just have a mismatched hub/cassette like people have been doing with 11-speeds pretty often.
  • + 1
 @lemonaid: Yes, what @elsb0048 said. Right now you can't swap it out and no one but DT Swiss is licensed to make it. I said on another thread that if they had released it when SRAM released the xD driver, then it would have been fine and people would have been building wheelsets based on whatever brand they prefer and the old Shimano style hub would be dead by now. But xD is what 6 years old now?
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: I couldn't believe it when I read that either, but there wasn't much info on it, so for now I'm assuming it would fit my standard size BB bike...
  • + 2
 @lemonaid: It doesn't sound like the new freehub will be compatible with old Shimano hubs at all. No word on the DT Swiss, but looking at how it goes together it sits differently inside of the hub shell. It could be backwards compatible, but just not in the Scylence configuration.
  • + 0
 @tibetaneskimo: you might laugh when you read this, but personally I feel like shimano is an engineering driven company that makes the best stuff it can. Sram, on the other hand, is a marketing driven company that makes stuff different for the sake of it so they can sell more.
  • + 9
 @bman33 "In an unexpected turn of events, Shimano developed an 11-speed cassette that shares the same gearing as its 10 by 51, but with the 51 removed. The reasoning was that, when asked, Shimano's sponsored racers (both from enduro and cross country), maintained that they didn't need the 51, and were unwilling to carry the burden of the extra cog."

It isn't just me that values lighter weight cassettes and don't care for 51 tooth cogs.
  • + 9
 "Hey SRAM, mind if I copy your homework?"

"Sure, just change it a bit"

"Say no more"
  • + 1
 That’s what they’e always done. SRAM innovates, Shimano perfects.
  • + 2
 @jeremiahwas: Reminds me of when SRAM had the "new" shift action with just thumbs, where Shimano required thumb away, index towards to shift. People LOVED the thumb only action from SRAM, so Shimano just made the next generation shift either way. I still vastly prefer Shimano, but yeah, not as much on the innovation side, but boy do they do a good job at honing something and making it better.
  • + 8
 The PB home page today reads" Race inspired, engineered for all". How can this be is nothing is backwards compatible? Sure I get the race inspired thing, but that is a load of crap.

I like the XT di2 on my Mach 6, in fact - I pretty much love the setup. I was really holding out for a 12 speed update as well. But I simply cannot take the message from Shimano, and I wish they would just come out and say it straight up. "We built this for OEMs, and pretty much OEMs only".

Cool stuff Shimano, but I'm happy with what I have. Why should I change?
  • + 12
 The components looks like they were made by AMG!
  • + 12
 Sweet. But what about some updated Zee / Saint groups ?
  • + 8
 "Shimano says that chances of licensing the XD driver were near zero." That's funny, because it states right on SRAMs website that it's an "open standard available to any hub manufacturer." www.sram.com/news/sram-xd-driver-body
  • + 14
 It may be an "open" standard, but as far as I know, companies that make their own XD drivers are still required to license the technology from SRAM. I'm sure Shimano wanted to have full control and freedom to do what they wanted with their design, which is why they didn't go the XD route.
  • + 2
 If you're shimano you don't want a Sram standard. It would be like Honda switching to desmodromic valves in their motorcycles. Better or not, they would never admit it let alone actually use it.
  • + 11
 > 10 X 45 Lightweight: 11sp, 310grams

Nice! This is what Shimano should have had out 3 years ago.
  • + 3
 Ya, so can i put it on my 1x11 xt if i only replace cassette and hub?
  • + 2
 THIS is the cassette I've been dreaming of. We can only hope SRAM puts out an affordable competitor that utilizes the XD driver... Currently running a SRAM XG1175 with an XT rear derailleur and would love to get the range just a wee bit wider and shed a few grams... here's to hoping!
  • + 0
 Trs race cassette 281 grams 9-46 allowing a smaller front chainring. XD driver.
  • + 3
 @reverend27: 339 grams according to jenson
  • + 1
 @reverend27: Spendy and creaky, but i like the idea! Just make it more affordable and reliable.
  • + 4
 XX1/X01 cassette: 10-42, 11sp, 268g. Came out 6 years ago.
  • - 1
 @mobaar: ya but then youre on SRAM, which is a big expensive red flag in my experience.
  • + 1
 @mobaar: ya after some more research this is the route I'll be taking.
Xx1 10-42 Can be had for less the 200$ on eBay and it's lighter then anything else.
  • + 11
 Doesn't even come with a new bb standard... I'll pass on this one
  • + 7
 They fucked themselves on the freehub for sure and there is now clawing back. With XD already so well established, it will be very challenging for them to get traction. I love Shimano, I love the quality and the pricepoint. But I wouldn't give up my choice of hubs to anyone.
  • + 2
 They'll never, ever sell any of these hubs and cassettes to the public. It's already a dead standard. There is ZERO room or demand in the market for it.

People stopped buying XTR hubs after The M950 series of the 90's. Nobody cares about shimano's hubs. They aren't going to drop $500+ for a COMPLETELY UNPROVEN hubset/freehub and proprietary $300+ cassette.
  • + 2
 @redsled137: do you want to bet?
  • + 1
 @jaame: Anyone who's got an existing wheelset will run this with a sram cassette on an XD driver.
  • + 12
 TAKE MY MONEY
  • + 7
 don't worry guys i'm sure one of the many cassette makers will come up with a 11-50t 12 speed cassette that works on a normal freehub body (by dropping the 10t cog) so we don't need new wheels.
  • + 2
 Sunrace CSMZ90
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Boat anchor at almost 600g. GX Cassette is only 450g and I think that is heavy.
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: Then perhaps 12-speed isn't for you. 11-speed is significantly lighter.
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: GX 12sp Cassette is 450g....XT 11sp Cassette is 440g lol. Sure
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: 10-speed then? Dunno...the lightest 11-speed cassettes out there are only like 100g lighter...you'd save more weight at a more critical location by just going with lighter tires.
  • + 2
 @Svinyard: If you compare the weight of GX vs GX rather than a totally different cassette from a different manufacturer then GX 12 speed eagle is 450 and GX 11speed cassette is 325g so 125g is significant, also comparing the XTR in this article they state 11speed is 80g lighter.

I think its great they are leaving it to the consumers to decide if they want 12 speed range or save some weight with 11, if you're fit enough then why not get the reward of some weight saving.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven:

There are multiple wide-ish range 10-speed cassettes out there in the 300g range for about $200 or less. Even a $50 Sunrace MX3 is about 380g. E13, Garbaruk, Praxis.
  • + 1
 @redsled137: Yes but that's 10-speed. I suppose if you are a true hardcore weight-weenie that might be desirable but 10-speed no longer has the cost advantage it used to and range beyond 42t is awesome. I would expect the vast majority of riders to prefer at least 11-speed at this point.
  • + 10
 I want Shimano again.
  • + 5
 So does this mean Shimano brakes are no longer considered disposable? (I hope so) Good to see Shimano is finally doing some sort of mini driver freehub and matching Eagle in range. I'll be looking forward to the SLX/XT trickle down.
  • + 6
 Say what? How, exactly, are Shimano brakes disposable? Mine have all held up really well, even in nasty conditions (Pacific Northwest, riding all winter).
  • + 2
 @g-42: Consider yourself lucky. The seals in the caliper and/or the levers wear out and you get inconsistent lever pull. one second brakes will be ok, next you're pulling them to the bar in a panic. Shimano doesn't make a kit to replace the seals, so basically when this starts happening and you're out of warranty your brakes are literally garbage.
  • + 5
 Reading through this article it just reminds me that if I need to upgrade any parts of my bike in the future, I need to study at least for a weak the standards to buy compatible parts. Other than that the new XTR looks really good!
  • + 2
 in 2013 I rebuilt my 2001 hard tail to use for commuting using all new 2013/14 model year parts. Only thing that wasn't direct swap was fork but not because it wasn't available in MY14, I just didn't think it was worth paying the price for a brand new 1 1/8 steerer fork w/ qr. 12 years. Less than five years later, virtually every one of those parts will not fit on any new frame available. Insanity.
  • + 5
 You guys are a funny bunch. You make a comment thunderstorm about SRAM's products and "new standards" (DUB) and here comes Shimano with "new hub driver body standard" and its nothing but love and a "Oh well everything will be ok when XT comes out" attitude. This all only works with SHIMANO! Just saying.
  • + 5
 Have you read ANY of the comments?
  • + 9
 That 4 piston brake caliper is beautiful
  • - 3
 But it's made of printed plastic. Plastic. For that money I want Ti, magnesium, or something even more exotic.
  • + 5
 Man this stuff all looks great but still Cup n Cone bearings? Seems like if you are gonna finally stop dragging your feet to the 12 speed game and you already decided to finally give up the old freehub body and what not that that you might as well move to sealed bearings too...

Either way, great looking stuff cant wait to see it trickle down to XT.
  • + 5
 Shimano’s stock in trade is loose bearings. And forged aluminum.
  • - 4
flag cyrways (May 25, 2018 at 9:24) (Below Threshold)
 Not only cup and cone bearings, but you HAVE to use them because no open standard. They just backed themselves into a dark, lonely corner of forgotten standards.
  • + 1
 @cyrways: What about the DT Swiss hubs that are licensed to do the same freehub, are they cup and cone as well?
  • + 3
 @g-42: Nah. My guess is they will be adapted Star Ratchet freehubs with the new spline design thats the same as Shimano.
  • + 1
 @cyrways: XTR isnt for us... Its for racers and therefor Shimano doesnt care.

The old nascar saying goes "win on Sunday sell on Monday"

By the time shimano rolls out the XT version my guess is it will be a more open design for others to use.
  • + 3
 I've said it before and I'll say it again: please don't ask the only manufacturer of quality c n c hubs to stop making them. There are boatloads of quality options for those who prefer sealed cartridge. Really large boatloads. Those who prefer cup and cone don't have options (except price point).
  • + 2
 Cup and cone handles side loads better. Maybe Shimano genuinely thinks cup and cone is better/smoother/faster than cartridge bearings. Cup and cone is easy to service and with annual maintenance, it has the potential to last many years.
  • + 9
 Awesome!! Really like the 11speed idea with addition
  • + 9
 So how many standards have been introduced in one article?
  • + 5
 I am ready to drop coin on a new drivetrain, but was waiting for this announcement. I was prepared for $1k+ if it was mind-blowingly awesome (which it is).

But you lost me at “new freehub standard that I can’t use on my current wheels, nor have the hope of retrofitting”, I don’t need new wheels or new hubs I just wanted to make the jump from janky 10-speed wide range mashup to something refined 12-speed that was engineered to work together. I have always preferred Shimano to SRAM but they just made my decision for me. At least with my hubs now I can buy the XD driver and make the change.

It looks awesome, I’ll bet it’s phenomenal, maybe on my next new bike when I can build from the ground up.
  • + 3
 Just use an Eagle cassette...it's the same weight as the XTR cassette and works with XD. OR..if you have the existing Shimano freehub, Sunrace makes a 12-speed cassette that will fit.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I was wondering about this as well, is the spacing the same, so you can use an XTR shifter/deraillure with an Eagle cassette? You can with 11 spd but the article doesn't mention if that's still possible.
  • + 1
 @tgent: Cog pitch is the same between Shimano and SRAM because it's not a place where benefit can be had. They make the pitch only as narrow as absolutely necessary to physically fit the number of cogs they need...and both Shimano and SRAM are subject to the same physics rules.

What you need to worry about is number of speeds, cable pull, and derailleur leverage ratio. If you use a matching shifter and derailleur set along with a cassette with the right number of cogs you alleviate any concern there. So yes, you can absolutely use an Eagle cassette with M9100, or a Sunrace CSMZ90.
  • + 2
 @TheRaven: Thanks for the info. I will definitely consider doing that in the future, but I won't be running an XTR Cassette anytime soon.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: I appreciate that idea, but as I said before I finally wanted to invest in a system that was built to work together and not a mish-mash of parts. I just need to decide if that’s 11-speed shimano (or sram I suppose), or if I just go whole hog and do complete GX Eagle 12-speed. Either way I need to replace my cassette freehub carrier as the splines are all chewed up. I can get either the HG or the XD for it, so now I just need to pull the trigger.
  • + 2
 @blaklabl: just spent a weekend on a gx eagle equipped bike, could not tell the difference in shifting from my xo1 eagle bike.
  • + 1
 @blaklabl: That's unfortunate, as you are never going to get the best if you rigidly require the same brand all throughout the drivetrain.

For instance - I'm using three different generations of Shimano XTR, plus a Sunrace cassette on my bike. The reason for that is that it just works, all the time. No adjusting or re-tightening needed.

I really recommend thinking long and hard about this...you would be well served by just using M9100 with an Eagle cassette and chain. It's not a "mish-mosh", it's not "rigging"...it will work seamlessly and perfectly.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Thanks. I haven't "rigidly required" everything to match up until this point. I have a pieced together setup that works OK now, I just wanted to upgrade and get some additional range. It's keeping me off of new bike syndrome for a couple more years.

The M9100 stuff isn't even available yet (and I wanted to do something in the next week), and knowing that I won't be using all of it I won't bother to wait. By the time I get my next bike it will have trickled down to XT and I can get the whole groupset.
  • + 10
 Im sorry wallet
  • + 4
 Credit cards, wallets, 401ks are crying everywhere as we type...
  • + 4
 1) The free hub mechanism is exactly what I'm looking for. High engagement hubs were too draggy/loud and Sprag/clutch hubs were too heavy. Shimano really did a great job here, assuming they are reliable (and most definitely more reliable than Sprag).
2) Keeping the 2X drivetrain alive is cool. I just wish more frame manufacturers smartened up and designed 2X frames for the true all-mountain crowd.
3) New free hub design is nice. I'd postulate that it is stronger and easier to work with than the XD driver.
4) Non XTR hub options are a godsend. And they have straight pull options too! Hopefully the weight is below 300g

I can see myself getting the hubset + cassette + rear Der + rear shifter as soon as it is released!
  • + 6
 Sprag clutches are used in industrial machinery precisely because they are reliable under heavy loading. The only bike hub that uses them is Onyx, and you will have great difficulty finding any examples of failures with them. So no, this ratchet design is not going to be more reliable than a sprag clutch, not by a long shot. It's a cool groupset, but stop spiking the coolaid.
  • + 3
 I meant to say that Onyx hubs haven't been reliable in their performance/consistency regarding drag. They are also heavy. I certainly don't think I can make a dual Sprag hub fail!

For people looking for a silent + light hub, this is perfect. I'm hoping it doesn't feel spongy like Onyx though.
  • + 1
 @theminsta: I like light and quiet. That being said I think DTSwiss 240s are quiet enough.
  • - 1
 @Svinyard: I've had the 240s hubs. I didn't like the 18/36t engagement. I didn't get to try the 54T but I think that would have been the right amount. The XTR hubs have ~48 poe.

Also, DT Swiss hubs are made by idiots. They prioritized spoke length and gave it 48:100 spoke tension. Absolute garbage design
  • + 1
 @theminsta: they may be made by idiots, but the star ratchet hubs are probably the most reliable and maintenance easy hubs available.
  • + 4
 Isn't anyone excited about how much effort the put into this entire line redesign? the new hubs sound fantastic for strength and zero friction while coasting, the cassette has fully replaceable individual gears, the chain and retention look great! New brakes that are more linear (XT is already fantastic, whatever) OEM will adopt the hub standard no problem, better then USELESS XD with its fully pinned cassettes. Late to the party sure, but the king of the party for certain.
  • + 7
 Thats a nice looking crank might finally replace that wanky Raceface Aeffect I have.
  • + 4
 Double down shifting? Does it have double down shifting? The double down capability of the old Shimano shifting system was one of its best attributes. Does the new system have double down?
  • + 3
 Shimano probably chose 51t not necessarily to make a better cog, but just to win the x% gear range pissing contest. SRAM will probably opt for a 52t cog when the next eTap comes out. Shimano will then respond with an XT and SLX "race" version with even more teeth. SRAM will then release... never mind.
  • + 2
 At what point do we get the NEW! combined rear cog/tire combo?? 384 teeth and MEGA traction!!!! Centered chainline!
  • + 6
 Fall is so long from now........................................... I wish this said immediately available
  • + 3
 Yeah I'm guessing Sunrace or OneUp will make a FORTUNE in making a XD Cassette that works on Shiimano XTR new drive train. Stupid that Shimano didn't just man up and use XD tho. Its not like everyone was BEGGING for a new hub standard.
  • + 3
 Fantastic work Shimano. I’m a fanboi! Especially the 11sp 10-45, crankset is ace. I just hope you fixed the inconsistent bite point and bleeding. The last thing you need to revamp is cup and cone bearings in your hubs. It’s a shame because they look amazing.
  • + 8
 Had me at silent hubs
  • + 3
 If the 2x front shifter only has 1 lever why not make a version with 2 levers, the 2nd one would control the dropper? If they're going to insist that 2x isn't dead, they sure aren't using all their resources to prove us wrong. They have all the parts it seems, a 1 lever front shifter, and a new fancy 1x specific dropper lever. Prove us wrong and make the ultimate ergonomic, sexy 2x cockpit... we'll wait.
  • + 1
 That's a brilliant idea
  • + 3
 I'm too poor for XTR, but that looks pretty hot. I just got M8000 XT about a year ago... so I'll get the trickle down XT version of all this in like 4 years when I buy a new bike ;-)
  • + 5
 Xt 12 speed next year.... super cheap thru bike24. Maybe ill wait to go to eagle gx
  • + 2
 "Shimano notes that the mid-cage GS option also offers more ground clearance for 12-speed riders who have the legs to push a 45-tooth low gear."

The legs to push a 45 tooth low gear? Where do you find such super powered human beings?
  • + 4
 Give me those hubs with 6 holes! Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!! My cassette tool doesn't fit in the steerer tube dudes.
  • + 6
 those are some sexy looking calipers
  • + 2
 And still no updated Saint or Zee, XTR has already had 2 redesigns in the last 2 years. Saint needs the more updated clutch mechanism, that xt and xtr have, hell give it an even stiffer clutch so they don’t break all the damn time. I have 4 solid seasons on my XO1DH 7 speed and have never blown the clutch, had saint before that and the clutch didn’t even make it half a season.
  • + 2
 Well this is a bit of a let down. I'd have loved to have thrown a XTR 12s-speed shifter and derailleur onto my mostly XT drive train (XT with a SRAM cassette) but it's not I-Spec II compatible so I can't fit it to my brand new 4-pot XT brakes, and I can't convert my much loved Hope hubs to the new Shimano driver. I could have at least run an Eagle Cassette with Shimano derailleur, but now I have to upgrade my brakes for a clean cockpit.

I guess I'll be sticking on 11-speed unless I move to SRAM (which I REALLY don't want to do). Oh well.

I think Shimano have really got this wrong, what a massive shame - they really had a chance to take what SRAM had done with 12-speed and improved massively but instead they've just put in too many blockers for anyone wanting to upgrade.
  • + 2
 There was a picture of a non i-spec shifter with a clamp band. I think I will just do the shifter/derailleur and eagle cassette and call it good.
  • + 2
 BIG Adoption issue: New OEM bikes RARELY spec XTR groupo's. Think about that from the perspective of the rest of component manufacturing industry. Their "customer base" for this new stuff is a micro-fraction of what it should be simply because of the fact their is very little gaurantee that many people can even buy and use this new stuff. So for them to dump a bunch of R&D into supporting this is risky in the near future. That's one of the absolute main reasons why SRAM's stuff is everywhere. Simply put they artificially created a massive customer base simply by heavily integrating with the OEM's using their GX and X01 builds. Now we see lots of partner support for all kinds of SRAM stuff of course. I'm in engineering sales with a firm and can tell the first thing we look at when building new customer products is the size of our immediate customer base and how do we leverage that. Trying to create your own base and lead the charge on that is just stupid, risky business.
  • + 0
 Couldn't you argue that XTR isn't aimed at OEM builds, that it's trickle down into XT and under that will appeal to OEM? I'm sure the R&D costs in XTR will ultimately apply across the whole range, I mean what is the real cost between XTR and Deore? If they say spent $10,000 on developing the derailleur for XTR (just a random number), does it cost them anything for Deore, surely they're just making it more cheaply and heavier?
  • + 5
 No SuperBoost157 rear hub? It's coming like a train down the tracks, just you guys watch!!
  • + 2
 I've been a sram guy for a long, long time. Eagle GX price point for a non-racer dude is hard to beet. Still, like to see competition from companies driving R&D... We all win! Especially when the racing tech trickles down to the more practical mid range that most of us ride. On my second bike with GX Eagle and no complaints! And for me and our terrain, I'm happy to have that 50t hanging out for some steep climb outs near the end of my ride on tiring days. Just an average human body here that likes to ride and wave as the big boys go by! No ego here!
  • + 2
 SO glad they added rubber pads to the shifters. The last 10 years of watching the pro mechanics pull it off with just rubber cement must have finally set in....

Maybe in 2030 they'll have grip tape on their road shifters?! ....a boy can dream....

2018: The year the of the obvious
  • + 4
 I've talked to guys at sram xd they said that xd was open source and would love for Shimano to use it, but Shimano doesn't like to validate others ideas.
  • + 2
 I totally get not wanting to use their competitor's driver, but not licensing theirs to all the major hub manufacturers is ludicrous IMO. They're cutting out the overwhelming majority of their customer base by limiting use of this new cassette to their own hub and DT Swiss
  • + 2
 Is it just me or does that hub mechanism resemble very closely Chris King's ring drive? It's like the Scylence hub a hybrid of the star ratchet and the ring drive. Will it be the best of both worlds, or the worst? hmmmm

Also... Scylence... Soylent.... hmmmm coincidence?!
  • + 2
 Shimano: "New XTR! We're telling you about it today, you can buy it maybe 4-6 months from now, maybe a year from now. Who knows?! That's what makes it exciting!"

Apple: "New iPhone. Today is Tuesday, you can order it on our website in an hour or line up at an Apple store Thursday/Friday if you'd rather pick one up in person. All other retail channels will be fully stocked by then as well."

Other than the idiotic availability time line, new XTR will probably be ridiculously good. Too bad Shimano still hasn't figured out how to release product properly.
  • + 3
 I'm skeptical that the freehub body will not gouge over time. It's still aluminum with some slender cogs cutting into it (the smallest ones) And are the hubs sealed bearing yet? if not then I have 0% interest.
  • + 5
 I want to see the Evil that these parts are being shown on, the paint looks bananas
  • + 2
 Good move Shimano, all look sexy AF, will try new cassette as soon as it will became available, also thouse cranks and brakes are top notch! XT will be mass adopted due to prices and already adopted standard Dropper lever also looks dope, main disadvantage i-spec incompatible standard
  • + 3
 Man, so many new standards. The cranks wont work on some frames as well? I can't use my existing wheels/hubs either? I like some of the tech, especially brake modulation (finally) but some of it is a turn off for sure.
  • + 0
 Yeah that one little sentence dangling off the end of the paragraph sure has me scratching my head: "Some Boost-width frames will not be compatible with M9100 cranks." I wonder what frames fall into this category? I imagine they'll be fully SRAM'd out by necessity.
  • + 4
 "dont dive into the comment section"
that's like telling someone to not look when you're about to get changed in a changing room...
  • + 1
 I'm not interested in the 12 speed but I am super happy to hear Shimano releasing an updated 11speed cassette that's much lighter than the XT 11-46t cassette. I may upgrade when my cassette wears down. Which will be a long while haha
  • + 9
 Did you miss the part where you still need the new freehub for the 11sp cassette?
  • + 3
 Might be a bit expensive as you'll be replacing a freehub body at a minimum.
  • + 3
 but doesn't the new cassette require the new freehub too?
  • + 1
 @mobaar: I guess I did. I thought that was only for the 12 speed casset. :/
  • + 3
 While it is nice, for not much more than that cassette, one can have a complete GX Eagle group that may lack the bling factor and weigh more, but works very well...
  • + 1
 Product announcements 4 months before anything is available are annoying.
I like the new freehub design but being forced into a centerlock rotor is not so good.
And so many/too many options on the hubs curse you boost !
No 28t chainring is a big miss, but will maybe be part of XT.
I predict that the XT release as usual will be much more pertinent for me.
  • + 5
 I usually cringe at the people that make fun of others for their choice of gear ratios but you really want a 28t front ring with a 51t cog?
  • + 0
 @iantmcg: On a 29'er yes.Running 26/50 right now. In fact now that I look at the gearing chart 28/51 is not quite low enough. Maybe it could work with an oval. I like climbing steep tech.
  • + 3
 @preston67: oh dang, well to each their own. I am on 27.5 with 30-42 and I would like a bit lower gears but with 26-50 I think I'd just prefer to push the bike at that point.
  • + 2
 @preston67: 26/50? More power to you, but that's 0.57 gear ratio, 4.3km/h pace at a cadence of 60, 5.7km/h at 80. How steep are the climbs in your area?
  • + 1
 @gramboh: Yeah I think in gear inches - 15.1
Its not always about the steepness so much as the amount of tech you have to hump over and situations where you have to ramp rpms up and down very quickly without getting bogged and or have fidelity of traction control. Its also a resting gear in between climbing features or a bailout after 4+ hours on steep terrain. However there are pure pitches that are steep enough to use it as well. Its not a "put it in low and grind up the access trail" by any means. I enjoy the challenge and the bragging rights over my buds who are walking. I mean anyone can let go of the brakes and kamikaze down that double black chute, but it takes real skill to clear a killer climb Smile
  • + 1
 Hum... better spend that consequent amount of money in a good pair of wheels/tires, a good fork, and of course a good steel or aluminium FS frame. My customized 1X10spd Sram X9 system works perfect for years and my legs do the rest...
  • + 1
 Small wonder ebikes are such a success. Obviously everybody needs 45tooth sprockets these days. If I had any use for that I'd want an ebike, too. Maybe when I turn 50. Until then I will stick with my Shimano 1x11 setup, 40 teeth are more than enough.
  • + 5
 Exciting upgrade possibilities!
  • + 3
 yeah, except you have to upgrade almost every single part of your bike. glad they didn't invent new clamp size for new i-spec.
  • + 3
 The funny part is Sram won't include a .10c plastic gauge for setting up the hypersensitive eagle RD, but Shimano is including the chain ring lock ring tool with cranks.
  • + 2
 Wait, the SRAM little red gauge that comes with the RD?? It does come with that dude...

I like that Shimano is including some of their tools. Something tells me we are paying them them tho
  • + 1
 It all looks very droolworthy but Aluminium chainrings are just a money making venture, I would happily sacrifice the slight weight issue to have a hard wearing steel narrow wide ring like Sram have made. Been riding one for a year now with absolutely no wear whatsoever and never a chain dropped. Or Shimano could really step up and do a Ti chainring oooh!

On the freehub, love the idea of silence and reliability, but if you can't backpedal to alert dog walkers you're approaching them at warp speed, then what are we left with... a bell? Having said that me roaring in frustration at my KOM attempt being messed up is usually enough to alert them i'm coming lol
  • + 1
 I want a hub that's so quiet, absolutely no animals will ever hear me coming for the next 20 years. #theywereherefirst #sharethetrail #sacrificeyoursoulasfoodforlions #surprisemotherbearsatfullspeed

Seriously though...waiting for XT
  • + 2
 Let me get one thing straight. I think the biggest news here is the 11 speed 10-45t cog. So does that cog require the new spline driver as well? Or does it fit the older spline? Ty
  • + 2
 10t is tool small a diameter for the existing freehub bodies. 11t is the smallest that will fit, so hence to go to 10t you needed some changes.
  • + 1
 A master of robbery those piece of plastic and aluminium.
Comparing with price of automotive aftermarket parts, they are master thiefs.
$500 for a cnc aluminium crank ? c'mon !
x10 groups are enough for US, and they are overpricing yet.
Do not let them cheat you anymore.
All bicycle industry its a scam, playing with a 50+ year industrial technology and charging like it was future.
  • + 1
 So just me who's avoided SRAM XD cos it needs an expensive machined cassette? Instead I've been finding Sunrace cassettes are really good - sensible ratios and long life.
But the new Shimano cassette looks ideal - you could make a whole range of cassettes to fit at normal person prices. Just a shame they didn't bring it out across the range a couple of years ago and free-licence the design.
  • + 1
 oh look, finally they have arrived. just a few years late really. should be interesting to see how it contends with sram now, i think the uber proprietary hubs are gonna dent their takeoff. especially given that there are already 12spd shimano fh compatible cassettes out there.
  • + 1
 The premis of this introduction is wrong, you've always been able to run a Shimano shifter and derrailuer on a Sram wide range casette, if you want good shifting on wide range.

Any word on the hubs, has Shimano embraced cartridge bearings yet or are they still on cup and cone?
  • + 3
 my rear hub ratchet lets a rider know I'm approaching from behind, lets a rider standing in the trail know to move, no way will i go with a silent hub.
  • + 1
 I'm sure this works flawlessly as Shimano always has. But, there needs to be some serious custom clear tape for the XTR cranks. Or some hardened ano or whatever they eginnerd up. I have only ever bought them because they are beautiful, I do not need them at all. But after one month of riding the nice finish has always rubbed off. I have always felt ashamed rocking the worn out XTR cranks. Someone do something about this. Tragic.
  • + 4
 Fuck 12 speed. If I have to click through that many stupid gears might as well go back to front mech.
  • + 1
 Unless your whole deal with mountain biking is akward techy uphill moves, why the hell is super fast engagement needed? I have to think with time more manufacturers will get licensed. To me Shimano has finally addressed all of its short comings, mainly that shitty FH design. And take a moment to reflect on XD, I panic every time I install a cassette but it does beat smashing your Shimano cassette off with a f*cking hammer...

Take my money
  • + 6
 People use 140mm brakes?
  • + 4
 roadies do
  • + 2
 yup, great way to save a few grams on the back of an XC bike.
  • + 3
 You can hate the new standards but the new freehub mechanism is simply brilliant. Simple, silent and seems reliable. I don't think there ever was a solution better than this.
  • + 0
 Shimano's new freehub designs from the last few years have been plagued by failures. I don't expect these to be particularly reliable.
  • + 1
 @redsled137: Yeah, like the new has so much in common with previous designs... It's completely different solution so how can you expect anything from it based on older ones?
  • + 1
 New open standards are so 2018. Nowadays unless you create a new standard that is ALSO proprietary, it doesn't even count. I dream of a world where every rear hub is manufacturer, model, and frame material specific.
  • + 2
 Why is it I still dont like splined rotors when they are so much easyer to take off, maybe the fact dont carry the tools to remove it?
  • + 0
 And 100 years later we are still using cassettes and mechs to change gear and everyone goes crazy about! I mean really, talk about lack of innovation. During that time we have mastered flight and space travel, invented artificial intellegance and harnessed the power of the atom. Yet we still change gear like this. Come on sort it out!!
  • + 3
 Wooo I knew there was a reason why I only have DT Swiss hubs in the garage.
  • + 1
 And in case anyone cares, the FULL groupset can be bough for 2000EUR from one of the german sites.https://www.bike-components.de/de/Shimano/XTR-M9100-Gruppe-1x12-p65481/ Waiting for the first build with this.
  • + 4
 Have they finally fixed the variable bite point on the brakes
  • + 3
 I'll go with the 10-45 cassette, & 32T ring please;
But M8100 won't get here soon enough!
  • + 3
 So you have to not only have another style of freehub but you can only get that on Shimano hubs. Whats the point in that?
  • + 5
 No di2?
  • + 0
 It seems that the electronic system is dead, but it's an odd oversight that RC didn't directly address it. On a different note, I'm standing by for 12sp XT.
  • + 1
 @sngltrkmnd: You think they are abandoning Di2 for MTB?
  • + 1
 @chsad: I have no idea. This post by RC seems like the logical place to at a minimum *mention* Di2. From the second sentence of this post: "stop fooling around with electronics". So... did Shimano give up on it? It seems its main purpose was to automate shifting between front rings. With that configuration all but gone from the lineup, is there still a need for Di2 for mountain? I dunno. With 12 speed cassettes from Japan it no longer seems necessary.

I understand that Shimano is very, very conservative, product-wise, but geez. Give the people what they want - like another option for a reliable 170mm dropper.
  • + 1
 @sngltrkmnd: What I find interesting is the Pivot connection. They come out with the Trail 429 with a Di2 battery port in the front triangle but not only is it not a 2x bike, it lacks the hole for the wire to get to rear der. (w/o getting creative). Does this allude to a wireless system?

That said I will line up for this with my only question being can I just pop a new free hub body on my DT rear hub go?
  • + 1
 @chsad: I was wondering the same thing..... coffee and bike porn found this.....

bikerumor.com/2018/05/26/dt-swiss-already-ready-with-micro-spline-hubs-for-new-xtr
  • + 3
 @RBWebb: Great! You have to believe that other hub manufacturers will get access to this freehub. I get the initial non-licesnce as Shimano and DT have put in the work/testing. But when XT8100 is everywhere and people want the cassettes that will need to change.
  • + 1
 then again Shimano never nailed it with hubs. My last good shimano product is my 7400 dura ace. Impeccable quality and performance, even by today's standards. From then on it only went south.
  • + 1
 Almost said eff it... too many damn comments to scroll through. Lol

Stoke level is up, about time these showed up.

Hey Shimano, make an 11 speed 10-51 cassette, I’ll buy that in a heartbeat.
  • + 4
 Shimano Eagle. They should call it ShimEagle
  • + 6
 Precious........
  • + 4
 @mikeep: shmeagle
  • + 1
 This needs to go to the top. Razz
  • + 2
 I like the idea of a silent freehub, especially for videos! Then all you hear is the tires on the dirt/rocks/roots. I love that sound!
  • + 3
 As much as I hate new standards I will be buying that silent hub when the XT version drops.
  • + 3
 Shimano dropper remote....
Shimano dropper post on the way?....

And, no, I don't make rings for that crank. Yet.
  • + 2
 shimano has dropper already tho
  • + 0
 Shimano already has a dropper. Though I don't fault you for not knowing that...pretty much no one has ever heard of it.

www.pinkbike.com/news/shimano-koryak-dropper-seatpost-first-look-2016.html
  • + 1
 They have had one for a while under their PRO house brand.
www.pro-bikegear.com/global/en-gb/mtb/seatposts/PRO_SP_KORYAKASP
  • + 1
 I thought that was announced last year at some trade show. From what I recall, there was nothing ground breaking about the technology inside, as well, I thought they only made 125mm version.
  • + 1
 Koryl already exists...or however you spell it
  • + 1
 @russthedog: ah, kayak, nice dropper.
  • + 1
 All those new brake options look great! I think Shimano finally realizes that riders value modulation. XTR 4-pot along with the XT trail flat pedals are going to be great additions to the bike Smile
  • + 2
 Pouring one out for all the amazing shops that have sweet 11 speed XTR builds on their floors that are now worth nearly nothing.
  • + 2
 The sponsored racers dont need the 51 sprocket, Are these people buying products of shimano? We, hobby bikers are the real costumers not the racers.
  • + 3
 hobby bikers are not buying xtr
  • + 4
 Lost the pinch bolt crank Damn
  • + 2
 Well. New standards, but at least I can still get it in 142. Finally Shimano has a true 1x drivetrain though. As awesome as the current XT is it still needed improvement.
  • + 3
 I like my hub to make noise for slow riders ahead or cougars I don’t see
  • + 3
 It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's Shimano's 12-speed drivetrain!
  • + 1
 I have a theory that the person who comes up with "new standards" is secretly having a competition with the Star Wars people to see who can put out more new shit.
  • + 1
 Those rotors looks heavily inspired from the Alpine Rotors I am using:

ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb12833673/p5pb12833673.jpg
  • + 1
 If it hasn’t already been mentioned in the 300-some-odd comments above, it seems like a golden opportunity for e13 or wolftooth to make an xd driver cassette ASAP.
  • + 1
 e13 has had an XD cassette for a while now. And it's 9-46.
  • + 1
 @acali: highly doubt it’s cross-compatible with Shimano chains/shifting ratio. Shimano/SRAM shifting bits rarely work well together (key word: well)
  • + 2
 @tmadison12: the e13 trs race cassette work extremely well with shimano 11 speed and a KMC chain. I've got it on two bikes
  • + 1
 its ok....I'll use OneUp mini driver and Sunrace cassette for the moment until DTSwiss Micro Spline freehub becomes available.
  • + 2
 My only concern is how quickly the hub driver will be available to use with an Industry Nine wheelset.
  • + 2
 As a dentist I'm concerned the price is too low many commoners may still buy this robbing me of my bling factor
  • + 1
 At least you'll have something to commiserate about with fellow dentists and Richie Riches at the trailhead parking lot. But the 51t low should help you make it to the top of the climbs on those XC loops with 5-6" travel.
  • + 0
 "Shimano certainly has the technology to manufacture a carbon crankset - and they have done so - but their testing showed that it was aluminum that came out on top in the strength, weight, and durability contest." - Duh
  • + 1
 I bet DT will make a new microspline freehub that will swap their existing hubs, use NG their existing ratchet system. They did that for XD. Seems like it would work, no?
  • + 2
 $170USD for 2x bicycle brake rotors... nearly double the price of RT86... wat?
  • + 4
 SHIMANO are ther best!
  • + 1
 Adding one more tooth to make it 51T does not make it 10% more range than a 10-50 cassette. It is 2% wider range than a 10-50.
  • + 3
 Disappointed there is no triple ring option. Maybe next time
  • + 3
 Already 60% off at Chainreaction!
  • + 2
 So do we really have to wait a year for XT 12? Shimano could have really killed it by releasing XT 12 at the same time.
  • + 1
 I certainly agree that XT would have been killer. But I think suits would say that you have to release it XTR-only for a while to recoup some costs. Then trickle it down to XT at 105% of the weight and 60% of the cost.
  • + 2
 The waiting game begins...a year until XT 8100 and maybe two years until SLX 7100?
  • + 0
 Looks sweet, I particularly like the silent wheels, but no improved electronic version or any sign they are going wireless. Seems like Shimano missed the boat an a big opportunity there.
  • + 2
 C'mon SRAM, time to take us to the next level..........Lightweight and slick gearbox.
  • + 3
 Did I see a NEW free-hub standard?
  • + 1
 two actually - one for 11sp
  • + 1
 @strasznyzbigniew: actually one. The freehub is the same, they just have a different hub if you want that moves the flanges further out since you have the room with the 11 sp cassette.

The 11sp cassette will work on either hub, it's just the 12sp won't work on the hub with wider flanges.
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: so I can’t use my current 11sp XTR and my current hub with their new 11sp cassette?
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: no because the new 11 is actually a 12 minus 1 so the spacing would be off. I would be surprised if it worked with 11 speed shifters/derailleurs.
  • + 1
 @grldm3: then I’ll be using one up for a few more years
  • + 3
 51 teeth! OMG way better than Eagle I bet it climbs like a goat
  • + 4
 SRAM: You just had to have 1 more, didn't you?
  • + 1
 I doubt it'll have to slam, err excuse me slip into sync on the two larger cogs.
  • + 1
 Who is going to be the first pro enduro rider on the new stuff? Jolanda Neff (cross-country pro) is already on the the xc oriented gear.
  • + 1
 Rude. He posted pics from Santa Fe
  • + 3
 Aesthetics improved 510%. Cranks are especially hot.
  • + 3
 Yes. I still run M980 XTR, 10 speed wide range. It looks great.
  • + 2
 I hope that cassette alu part lasts longer than the HOPE one which is made of cheese.
  • + 2
 So the new eleven speed cassette won't fit my old freehub? Too bad at 310gr for 10-45 I'll be all over it.
  • + 3
 such silent much options very standard wow
  • + 2
 No super-boost plus option. Good!
I missed the spindle diameter... Is it still 24mm?
  • + 2
 Noooo 24mm is too weak it has to be 28.99mm otherwise I can't even
  • + 2
 both pictures of the brake levers seem to be the XC version. i think the enduro version has a toolless reach adjuster.
  • + 4
 No 3x11 option ?
  • + 3
 disengaging teeth sounds sick, but no Hope freewheel buzz, dunno :-)
  • + 2
 Good stuff, but I guess that’s another 2 year wait until they do SLX 12 speed and hope can make the hubs????????????
  • + 2
 Lol available fall 2018... wonder what sram will have rolled out by then..?
  • + 3
 An extra 1.01mm somewhere.
  • + 2
 It's perfect. Am I the only one who is really happy to see a new freehub design?
  • + 0
 I bet LBS mechanic are happy too. Off with the XD, it's just a matter of months until every brands of hub will have a Microspline fhb option in their range. Sick of all the failures caused by the poorly designed XD.
  • + 2
 @Euskafreez: Just curious what are the failures that people have experienced with XD? I don't pay much attention and haven't had troubles with mine so I'm interested to know what to watch out for.
  • + 6
 @elsb0048: on XD the built-in lock ring -worst idea ever- fails if you remove your cassette too much. Leaving you with a worn out cassette on your fhb. Having to use an angle grinder and/or a dremel just to remove the cassette from the fhb ... Another great idea from Sram. If you're lucky enough, your rear wheel uses a DT ratchet system, easier and cheaper to replace the whole fhb.

Other issue is with how short the outer bearings on the XD fhb last. Bad design from the start from Sram once again.

Going lower than 11T requires a new freehub, we all get it. But why on earth did Sram came the XD fhb in the first place. Any LBS mechanic with enough experience would have told them it was a bad idea. In the last 2 years, we have experienced issues with the XD fhb or XD cassette because of the design.

Here is the main difference between Shimano and Sram. The first try to make things easier for us the grease monkey. It's not always perfect, they do not necessarily nail it on the first attempt, but on the long run Shimano always deliver.
  • + 1
 @Euskafreez: Good to know thanks! I've only had a bike with XD for about a year so I've only removed the cassette 3 or 4 times for cleaning. Haven't been swapping parts or putting enough miles to experience these yet so it's good to know what to watch out for.

I do like the look of the deeper splines here although I'm a little hesitant about the aluminum body. I'm willing to be proved wrong though.
  • + 4
 @elsb0048: the HG8, aka the actual Shimano fhb, was designed for a steelmade fhb. Note that Shimano HG8 fhb, up to these days were made out of steel, not aluminium. If other companies such as DT or Hope came with an aluminium made HG8, it was their call, not Shimano.

Shimano always have designed their cassette for a steelmade fhb, not an aluminum one. Hence is why the Shimano cassettes bite aluminium fhb a bit too much but work like a charm on a steelmade fhb.

With the microspline, it was designed from scratch to be used on an aluminium fhb. Nothing to worry about, as it is something somewhat similar used with the centrelock interface. In two words- no worries.
  • + 1
 It's LONG overdue, and once people get over the complaining phase (and they open it up to more licensing - which they WILL do), people will get over it, because it's going to be better than what we had before.

I'm just as averse to change as most people, but this is one that needed to happen, and I'm glad it has.
  • + 2
 Not even available yet, but already contains outdated stuff. #SUPERBOOST!
  • + 1
 Looks promising but shimano speed up to the 12-speed party to late. Sram pretty much dominates everything now
  • + 1
 Thanks shimano... but please fix your brake master cylinder. I’m off to magura
  • + 2
 4 piston skid triggers ftw!
  • + 2
 Another I-Spec variant is really the most exciting part of this.
  • + 2
 Can't wait to see the ispec compatibility chart!
  • - 2
 Challenge SRAMs near take over? If producing horribly clunky shifting is a take over then I'm glad Shimano has continued to go their own way. Too bad they had to got a 50t cassette out there to sway the masses of weak legged riders their way but I'm sure this system doesnt feel like it's going to fall off your bike every shift. Di2 is still the future regardless, obviously since SRAM is struggling to get it going, apparently they cant even get that right though since Nino was left on the start line of the short track race due to a malfunction.

#shimano4life
  • + 3
 Shimano > sram
  • + 2
 Is the cassette spacing the same as eagle?
  • + 1
 As i understood, same shifter for 11 and twelve gears
  • + 2
 @shaked: Hmm, ok. Wanted to know if I could use an aftermarket (eagle spaced) 12 speed cassette with shimano shifter and derailleur. I want 12 speed, but can't stand the feel of Sram stuff. Guess I will have to wait for the garage tinkerers of this world to do their thing before I spend any money.
  • + 1
 @stumpymidget: absolutely!
I wasn't explaining it well, I just wanted to strength your comment.
The fact it is the same shifter for Shimano 11 and 12 speed cassettes seems fishy
  • + 1
 I think you'll also be able to this new rear derailleur and shifter and keep using any 11 or 12 speed cassette. So if you need a new derailleur you might as well get the new one with a new shifter. Then down the road you could get a new style cassette and hub if you desire. Possibly it will even be compatible with your existing Shimano 11 speed shifter..
  • + 1
 @acali: Does sram 11 and 12 speed cassettes have the same cog spacing? According to what I know they don't have. (so Shimano 11=sram eleven=shimano twelvesram 12?)
  • + 0
 There’s a statement on the back of the cassette that says, “Do Not Ride” don’t worry, Shimano, I already wasn’t going to ride your product!
  • + 2
 Shimano finally got rid of the crickets in your back-wheel.
  • + 3
 Yeah! Always loved Shimano products, and associated a silent bike with a quality bike.
  • + 2
 My 12spd goes to eleven..
  • + 2
 For the first time since the 90's. I want XTR on my bike.
  • + 1
 I'll change the pulleys to 12T upper and 14T lower, both NW to mimic SRAM Eagle mech.
  • + 1
 Ive been Sram guy for quite a while...but WELL DONE SHIMANO!...Can't wait for those brakes, they look SOOOO GOOOD Smile
  • + 3
 Finally it comes!
  • + 1
 So did I, all over my phone
  • + 1
 @konabigshed: Hope your phone is still working. Perhaps you can upgrade your phone to 12-speed and a silent clutch, haha
  • + 3
 OHHHH MYYYY GAAAAAAWWWWD
  • + 2
 Now we will wait for a 2x 12 electric groupset by Sram
  • + 1
 I guess there is a single truth?
drivetrainadvice.shimano.com/global/en
  • + 3
 Looks clean AF.
  • + 0
 They went so Ski-Fi on those freehubs...and they are still loose bearings and cones.And 51? C'mon Japan you are better than that.
  • + 1
 I'm guessing it will work OK with SRAM 12 speed cassettes too- for folks who don't want to buy new wheels...
  • + 1
 This is my hope. That sure would be a nice solution.
  • + 1
 anyone else notice that in the up close picture of the used cassette, the chain is put on in the wrong direction
  • + 2
 Aaaa! I want a silent hub! Hurray.
  • - 2
 I'd rather have affordable Di2 over 12 speed. I don't even spin out my current 11sp setup (11-46 sunrace cassette and XT shifter/derailleur) plus there are other options besides Shimano or Sram for cassette. One good thing about shinamo keeping their spline thing proprietary is that the standard hub will still be around for a while, but one that opens up then the standard hubs will go the way of v-brakes.
  • + 2
 Love it... can't wait till it trickles down to deore
  • + 1
 So Shimano couldn't add a $0.79 RD cage lock button to make wheel removal and install easier?
  • + 1
 XTR ??? Ok, take my money.... and the seat-post dropper lever ? matched to my SDG ? #twoworldscollide
  • + 1
 48 poe hub, no thanks.

hub weights how much? it should be in the drivetrain weight list. derp..
  • + 1
 million $ question - does anyone know whether the cassette compatible with SRAM eagle derailleur / shifter / chain ?
  • + 1
 Free ride group called XTGnaR
  • + 1
 sign me up !!! XTR baby !!!! Oh Yeah !!
  • + 1
 Very slick, well done Shimano!
  • + 1
 Sylence hub? Who wants a silent hub? Big Grin
  • + 1
 Thank you shimano, I like bikes again!
  • + 2
 Bye bye sram.
  • + 1
 I think bears will like that new freehub design...
  • + 1
 Nice spread, to bad it lacks backwards compatibility
  • + 1
 Sick sick sick! But waiting for and Shimano dropper....
  • + 1
 On the brink of repopulation, XTR will make the eagle extinct!
  • + 1
 lol, the casette will last 1000km ...like my E13....
  • + 1
 I9 hubs are really awesome but I'm glad I have DTs.
  • + 1
 After all this technical reading... I do need a snack.
  • - 3
 I hope HOPE will be eventually be able to make freehubs that fit these new 12 speed cassettes. Otherwise I'll be sticking to 11 speed. I actually wish they had just released a wide range 11 speed option without the crazy jump to 46t. For now I'll be sticking to the OneUp / Wolfs Tooth cassette 11 speed modification options.
  • - 4
flag Svinyard (May 25, 2018 at 9:54) (Below Threshold)
 Exactly. New standard and no OEM support is a bad business move. I wouldn't want to do a dentist build (which is a PERFECT mtb job as you only work 3 days a week i hear) and be stuck in a super propriety eco-system.
  • + 2
 2x12?
  • + 1
 I'm just here to laugh at people who still cry over new "standards"
  • + 0
 Even the grips look great!
  • + 0
 So many new standards that even sram are happy
  • + 1
 Sexy AF!
  • + 0
 Awaiting jelous Welsh persons comments.....
  • + 1
 "Silent freehub". Naw...
  • + 1
 Bling Bling........
  • + 0
 Amazing.....but...proprietary hub with shitty engagement. Deal killer.
  • + 1
 50 shades of grey
  • + 2
 51...and that last "1" is where things get really weird/interesting too Wink
  • + 1
 10-12-14-16....... love
  • + 0
 Should have just done 11-51 and kept old freehub.
  • - 2
 I don't want a silent hub and 7.6 degrees is too many.
Those cranks look like the old ones (which is a good thing because the current ones wear too quickly)
  • + 1
 Tooo buku
  • - 2
 i just invented a new word. it's "SHTANDARD". a short version of "sh*tty standard". it might have something to do with this new cassette body.
  • + 1
 HG+ isn't a standard and doesn't require buying a whole new bike. All you need is a new freehub body. I'm sure SRAM will continue to make their Freehub without having to change over to HG+
  • + 1
 @lemonaid: So will we be able to get a new free hub body or does this mean a whole new rear hub?
  • + 1
 Flip yeah!
  • - 1
 I wonder if they remembered to hard anodised the levers this time or if all the brakes will still fail.
  • - 3
 I was expecting more Shimano, but I am not unimpressed. Welcome to the present.
  • - 1
 She manoes
  • - 1
 fail
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