Pinion's Affordable Gearbox Nears Production - Interbike 2016

Sep 21, 2016 at 4:35
by Richard Cunningham  
Interbike 2016


Pinion gear transmission
Pinion, the German transmission maker, debuted a second-tier version of its 12-speed P1 bottom-bracket-mounted transmission. The C1.12 is lighter, slimmer and less expensive than its predecessor, and will be offered in twelve, nine, and six-speed configurations. Pinion says the C1's internals are the same as the more expensive P1 gearbox, and attributes much of its weight and cost savings to the C1's magnesium casing, which is stated to be pver 30-percent lighter than the P1 model's CNC-machined aluminum housing. Pinion co-founder and engineer Christoph Lermen would not yet quote a retail price for the new transmission, but made it clear that it would be appearing on mid-priced trail bikes with MSRP's in the neighborhood of $3000 USD.


Pinion gear transmission
The new C1.12 gearbox shares the same precision-made internals as the original P-series.
Pinion gear transmission
More compact cast-magnesium cases replace the P1's heavier, machined aluminum housing.

That should be great news for gearbox hopefuls, because the high price of existing geared transmissions, like Pinion's 18 and 12-speed P1 models, has relegated their use to expensive, limited-production boutique bikes. The new C1.12 provides potential OEM customers with the ability to offer viable options to clanky chains and derailleurs at both high-end and mid-level price points. Scale-ability, being able to offer a gearbox platform at a variety of price options, has been a barrier for interested bike brands.

The 12-speed C1.12 will arrive first this autumn, followed by a nine-speed trail and a six-speed DH option. All will continue to feature Pinion's two-cable twist shifter, although Co-founder Christoph Lemen tells us that they are working on a trigger lever that will sync with the transmission's rotary shifting mechanism. The narrower C1 housing allowed Pinion to reduce the Q-factor width of 165 millimeters and offer chain lines as narrow as 50 millimeters. All of the Pinion-equipped bikes at Dirt Demo were fitted with Gates Carbon Drive cog belts, however conventional narrow-wide chainrings are also an option. Overall weight of the 12-speed C1.12 transmission is pegged at 2100 grams.


Christoph Lermen: Pinion Founder

I met with Christoph Lermen, one of Pinion's two founders and co-designer of the C1 transmission for a short question and answer session. Lermen was very animated while speaking about the new gearbox, saying that they had secured a number of OEM bike makers who will be spec'ing C-series transmissions on production models for the coming 2017 season.

RC: What type of bicycles should we expect to see the new C1.12 transmissions on next year?

Christoph: Mainly, trekking bicycles - with fenders and lights. Not the kind of bicycles you see very often in the US. We also have customers who will be using them on plus and fat-bikes. We, of course, also will see the C-series gearboxes on mountain bikes.
Christoph Lermen
Christoph Lermen: Co-founder and designer.

RC: I understand that the internals are the same between the high-end P12 transmission and the less expensive C-series. Where did the savings come from?

Christoph: We industrialized most of the components. By this, I mean that we designed most of the parts to be manufactured more effectively and in larger quantities. For instance: the P-line casings begin as a large block of aluminum and then we machine away over eighty percent of that metal to make the final parts. Of course, all of those chips become recycled and are again melted to be used for something, but you can see that this is an expensive way to make the parts. We cast the C1 casings, which is faster and much less costly. Also, we use automakers to produce the gears and shafts. Those must be made in large quantities, because, as you can imagine, they are used to making thousands of parts and we can only buy so many. The C-line has been well-accepted by our OEM customers, so that has helped us to increase our orders.

RC: How much weight savings did you achieve from the switch to magnesium?


Christoph: The magnesium casings are 33-percent lighter than the aluminum casings. We made them more compact, so there is also a reduction in the Q-factor. This also means that the C-line does not have room enough for the 18-speed gears. We only offer the twelve, nine and six-speed gears - which also saves some weight.

RC: How complicated is the Pinion gearbox to work on?

Christoph: It is actually very easy to assemble. We counted the parts needed for Shimano's Alfine eight-speed hub transmission and also ours, and we use far less parts. More important, is that our gearbox is designed much simpler, so it is not so hard to put together.


Specifications:
• Construction: Magnesium housing with bash protection.
• Gear options: 12, 9 and 6-speed
• Compatibility: Pinion mount interface only
• Final drive: Narrow-wide or Gates Carbon Drive sprocket
• Shifter: Twist-grip indexing
• Crankset Pinion aluminum crank arms
• MSRP: TBD
• Contact: Pinion

Pinkion C-line gearbox specifications
Pinion gear transmission
The C1 gearboxes use the same rotary shift mechanism as the P-series.

Pinion gear transmission
Pinion gear transmission







320 Comments

  • + 753
 THIS is the type of thing we are looking for at Interbike. NOT another electronic gadget with a fighter pilot helmet, self driving "bikes" or another fat-tired poorly performing $8k bike with "insert new wheel/tire size here________________"
  • + 46
 Totally agree!
  • + 191
 You have spoken for so many. Could you imagine how quiet bikes would be with a gearbox and a belt drive instead of a chain!!! Makes me horny!
  • + 108
 Upon succession, FOX/SRAM will acquire it and slam in a 100 hours service interval with specific 33w lubricant.
  • + 9
 after calculating it out, the 6spd isn't too bad for DH. for an x9 setup is just about 1000grams so adding 800grams (1.7lbs) isn't the worst. not great but still!
  • + 78
 @makripper: Ain't bad at all. It likely replaces a little bit of frame weight too. Which would be extremely hard for anyone to calculate. That weight is being placed in the absolute best spot possible for a bike too. At same time removing unsprung weight from the rear wheel. The added ride performance should more than make up for the overall weight hit.
  • + 27
 Install it on a e-bike and you almost have a moto.
  • + 3
 too late about the wheel size...
  • + 3
 @makripper: And that weight is shifted from back wheel to the center,so it's roughly the same.
  • + 68
 - YES!!! This is what we want! About time! Yea, how about that Shimano? The Eagle flew away Sram aye?
- Hi, we are very happy to see you so stoked. How about you give us money and we can sell you one
- Naaaah, I think I will see how the technology will develop and wait until prices will go down...

Pinkbike enthusiasm: Already experienced by DVO Suspension.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: I have DVO Diamond, love it. My DH bike will have their DH fork next year.
  • + 22
 @bman33: Yea good on you. But there's been hundreds if not thousands of people here getting super enthusiastic about DVO making a fork and a shock, then DVO made a prototype and everyone was like Yeaaaaa, you guys who rockshox, how it's done! - aaaaand then DVO released pricing... 2000$ for a fork?! Overpriced sht for dentists! I prefer my 2003 Shiver.

I will never forget it. It was one a lesson in life.
  • + 8
 @WAKIdesigns: the Diamond has been awesome. I live in Colorado. I do a few enduros a year and plenty of park and rough riding, Moab is only 6 hours for me. The fork has been spot on. Pinkbike crowd does cry about price often and then in the same breath want every possible function/technology at Walmart pricing. Hopefully I can find a closeout deal on the Emerald mid winter! Shiver was/is still a great fork. Ahead of all others when it came out.
  • + 7
 If you think about it, it is even hard to believe that "normal" drivetrains (that means all of them - even that "Eagle" thing) are still alive...it is like we were still riding horses instead of cars - it would seem normal, but only because that's what we were used to - the only way we would know.

Or tires - for me, it just seems like it is time to have some sort of more "hi-tech" material to be in contact with the ground, not just pretty much regular rubber...
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: well it was overpriced brah.
  • + 1
 was about time ! we are tyred of spending money in chain derailleurs, chains and so on! bring those things to the market!
  • + 1
 @maqusss: and overweight. remove one of those things and it would have been fine.
  • - 3
 @maqusss: oh sure it was, Mr General accountant and Expert in Markets has spoken... please tell us about their margins, Brexit and trends for Swiss Franks for the future. Will we go above the second percentile?
  • + 19
 yeah, I have the single speed version of this setup... super light and bomb proof
  • - 11
flag Downhill29erplease (Sep 21, 2016 at 12:46) (Below Threshold)
 I think these gearboxes will be cool once they're light and standardized and serviceable on the trail. BUT WHY USE BELTS???!!! Use chains they're better in every way, except for the service intervals but that out ways the fact that on some frames you need to make a cu to install it. So with this stupid idea that you must have belts say good bye to hard tails and solid rear triangle suspension designs (vpp and maestro and Dave weagle link and evils)
  • + 10
 @Downhill29erplease: Pinion already has a few bikes running this system with chains and n/w chainrings. This example just shows a bike manufacturer who uses belts.
  • + 1
 @bman33: ok cool only seen them with belts except for one or two on their website
  • + 5
 @Downhill29erplease: look up Zerode article from Rotorua on Pikebike. It shows one of their bikes in yellow using the Pinion gearbox with a chain.

www.pinkbike.com/news/zerode-taniwha.html
  • + 12
 @mooseman414: Had a ride on a zerode taniwha the gear shifting and the lack of sound is quite sexual.
  • + 15
 What will they do with BOOST when gearboxes replace rear cassettes!?
  • + 4
 @twowheelsforthemasses: I'm just sick of people shouting "overpriced" having no fkng thing to support their argument. Does he have insight into the books of DVO? Does he know how much it costs them to produce one, how much they spend on marketing, tooling, overheads, what margin do they put on the thing? OFF COURSE NOT. The only just thing for a dude like that is getting Öhlins performance and reliability for pennies. Then it is great working and ethical. A kind of dude who'd like to see V10cc costing 1000$ and he'd still find something to whine about.
  • - 30
flag Beez177 (Sep 21, 2016 at 13:53) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: Waki your an idiot, DVO is the shit! I bought a slightly used Diamond for $500 I like it better than the Pike and Fox 36!
I also have an Emerald, best focking DH fork out period! Oh yeah I bought on a used Kona Supreme Operator for cheap! It impresses me everytine I ride it!
Do yourself a favor and pick one up, and stop acting like a know it all..
  • + 34
 @Beez177: I have no idea how you so completely misunderstood everything Waki said.
  • + 15
 @WAKIdesigns: production costs, margins etc are all irrelevant if the product is not competitively priced - competitively priced is defined as how it stacks up against the competition based on a cost to performance basis, simply put its the value it provides. If people say something costs too much it's not the price they have an issue with per se, but the value it offers. If your production, tooling and marketing costs mean that your product is not capable of delivering good value then it does cost too much - too much to produce, too much to market, to much to tool and too much to the consumer.
  • + 5
 @Beez177: Where the f*ck did you read, that I said DVO is bad? Do yourself a favor and go masturbate... exponentially. I'll shake your hand later, even if it's sticky.

@Paulski1966 - so what you are basically saying Öhlins or EXT are worthless? Because what? They don't match the expenditure of a random guy on the internet? What is your point of reference? A student? Guy with an Aston Martin? To whom exactly is DVO overpriced?
  • - 12
flag Beez177 (Sep 21, 2016 at 14:14) (Below Threshold)
 @bishopsmike: scroll up farther
  • - 35
flag Beez177 (Sep 21, 2016 at 14:14) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: your such f*cking tool
  • - 46
flag Beez177 (Sep 21, 2016 at 14:20) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: how is anyone suppose to understand your jibberish ( I know you think your being all witty ) Your a f*cking ass clown
  • + 59
 You're.
  • + 8
 @bishopsmike: ^^^ Hahaha! Excellent
  • + 1
 @romdog: Exactly! Put it in the bin where it belongs.
  • + 3
 @fatduke: How did you get on with the twist grip. I am seriously considering one but the grip shift is the only thing that's putting me off. I wish pinion would design trigger shifters, it's surely not that hard to engineer.
  • + 1
 @Downhill29erplease: read the article. Chain is an option.
  • - 10
flag ColquhounerHooner (Sep 21, 2016 at 15:38) (Below Threshold)
 @bishopsmike: - 'you are jibberish?' - 'your' was and is correct in this case.You're incorrect. Sorry, I like looking for them too Smile
  • + 1
 @pinion Hallelujah!
  • + 4
 @karatechris: I've ridden 11sp Sram gripshift, so don't have firsthand experience with the pinion, but if its anything like that, I'd have no trouble riding it. It was more precise than trigger, and you can DUMP from the 42 to the 11 in one twist. And Vice versa for a climb. My issue wasn't the shifter, I liked that, but having severely limited grip options.
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns: - where did I ever say the items are 'worthless'? Are you being intentionally obtuse? I also never actually said the DVO was overpriced either - perhaps it would be easier if instead of me responding you simply put words into my mouth? The market dictates as to whether an item is overpriced of not - if it sells a lot then the market perception is that it provides good value, if not then the pricing is clearly incorrect - hence why stores have sales. But harping on about the costs of marketing and tooling is irrelevant because if a company cannot manage its costs correctly then it is clearly producing overpriced goods - you can't say a company isn't overcharging if they go to market at $10,000 for an average performance fork merely because they spunked $10 million on promotion (and seeing as you are being so obtuse I feel compelled to point out that is merely a 'hypothetical example' not a comment on any companies business practice).
  • + 2
 @ColquhounerHooner: It was the first "your such a tool", not the second one. lol
  • + 5
 @karatechris: "it's surely not that hard to engineer"

- says every Joey who doesn't concept, design, build, make, design, and/or engineer things for a living.

If you do, or have done any of those things for a living, think about the time(s) that some Joey walked up to you and said "it can't be that hard" without knowing the complexity of what you were working on...
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: gearboxes the one thing every single pinkbiker wants yet will never ever EVER! pay for it.

I really dont undestand the sacralistic hype they actually do exist if you love them so much they are not a thing of the future. today is posible to build a bike aroud one.
  • + 4
 @fercho25: They have bought ENVE rims, $1500 Forks and Carbon everything. What makes you think that once gearboxes aren't perfected (or at least refined) to the point of viable on Trail/AM/DH bikes they/we won't buy that as well?
  • + 3
 @karatechris: It says in the article that Pinion is working on designing a trigger shift. Hopefully it is not far off, I would also be more interested in it without that grip shift. Last bike I had with grip shift was when I was 8, no need to go back.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: I can't help that my shivers are bomb proof lol
  • - 8
flag fercho25 (Sep 21, 2016 at 17:59) (Below Threshold)
 @bman33: dont go full retard man
  • + 7
 @fercho25: I'm not. I don't have electric shift, I don't own a fat bike, don't have Enve rims. Just saying that if it's a kickass product , someone will buy it. Granted, the first year they 'work' for a DH/AM bike, the 'dentists' everyone laughs about on Pinkbike might be the only guys with them. However, once/if they come into range of any other top-end component people will buy them.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: well is 1700$ and not POS.
  • - 1
 @bman33: that is my point why do you speak of some weird distant future. gear boxes exist now you can literally buy them.
  • - 1
 @fercho25: show me a gear box and a DH bike readily available besides the Zerode. One that is by a major manufacturer with a racer on the World Cup circuit. Then people will buy
  • + 3
 @bman33: so that is your criteria? Major manufacturer? So f*ck all the inovative guys taking a risk and putting them on the market today. you have to wait till specialized marketing department to tell you to buy it? Sometimes I forget bike consumers are comprised of people like you. We desrved getting f*cked in the ass with boost and quite frankly we deserve all the future ass f*ckings including when they eventually bring the dumbed down gear box.
  • + 4
 @fercho25: Wow. Chill out man. You do reakize this is a recreational bike blog right? I have two Transitions and a Devinci.

You sound so mature cursing out a stranger hiding behind a keyboard
  • + 1
 Possibly easier said than done, but installing some kind of return spring and adapting am existing trigger shifter to work must surely be the way forward.
  • + 2
 @fercho25: it is an obvious mechanic of the innovation. Sht goes to the people and gets properly refined once it gets into OEM volumes. Would Shimano make a better and cheaper gearbox than Pinion if they tried? Off-fricking-course. Only big companies can take an innovation to the orbit. Yes small companies innovate more, because that's how they grow. Nobody in the tech world gets anywhere by starting a small company and doing what big guys are already doing. Yes it's a big risk for a small company, but in reality it isn't as big as for a major manufacturer. Big company often cannot take such big risks, they just can't, they have plenty of employees, sometimes even shareholders, it's like having a family. The analogy would be: As a energetic post graduate student you can take lots of career/financial risks, but once you have kids - you think more than twice, because it's not only you that goes towards the bottom if something goes wrong... there's less at stake , as simple as that. The last big risk I saw from a major company was XX1 by SRAM and we all benefit from it. Now they went full retard with Eagle, but they have to compete with Shimano. In the perfect world 45+ sprockets would be best if made only by small companies, because no matter what people say, it is a product for a narrow group of people. Realistically speaking, Eagle just like 22t granny, tripple chainsets are for cadence freaks and people with knee problems. But now it goes OEM so it's for everybody.
  • + 4
 It makes me laugh that whenever they do gearbox articles usually somewhere they say that they will never be adopted as it would have to be a international frame standard and manufacturers aren't willing to do it. As they would have to completely redesign the frame. Yet if we look how many have jumped on the ebike thing in the space of like the past 3 months which is built into the frame...... and redesigning the frame......Replace that ebike motor with a gearbox.
  • + 3
 @bishopsmike: pew pew shots fired shots fired
  • - 1
 @acmilan1899: Replace that ebike motor with a gearbox - RC already spoke on that, NSMB did as well. E-bike haters are too blinded with the amount of hate crap in their heads to see that development of E-bikes can improve regular bikes. That's because big companies already decided to make "weird" frames without BB for E-bikes, so now they will be more likely to consider making mounts for the Gearbox. Then look at Sram EX 8 speed cassette. Wide range with only 8 speeds! Give me that in a lighter package please, and I will bin my 11sp XTR right away! Pinkbike failed me for not reporting XE going into production. That's the difference between scepticism and denial. Nobody has ever gone far with that. It's the same kind of brain mechanics as putting Marijuana and Meth to the same bag of "bad" things, while being perfectly fine with the lift of the alcohol Wink
  • + 2
 @romdog: They will use a 135mm (or narrower) hub with the flanges spaced wider than Boost to give a stronger wheel. Boost will remain up front though which I like as I can use my old 110x20mm hubs.
  • + 1
 @bman33: you should look up Benoit Coulanges , he has been racing World Cup dh, is normally in the 15-25th kind of place, each race of the last two seasons racing an effigear / Nicholai, it is very difficult for little manufacturers to support a team/ rider at these events, and to get someone that the average internet viewer knows about is likely more expensive than the entire companies (not just marketing dept) budget.
  • + 1
 @fatduke: How was it, i have one on order Smile
  • + 1
 @uphillsg: Thanks for the heads up, I will check him out. At least your comment was productive and adult, unlike the other guy's. He failed to see that I am for the gearbox and the smaller manufacturer. I was just being a bit realistic
  • + 2
 @bman33: @uphillsg - Give it time and there will be more riders with gearboxes competing at WC level. You are right thought that once this happens the pendulum will swing. I am surprise Mondy haven't got one in the pipeline as they're a pretty progressive company. Imagine Danny Hart and Laurie Greenwood on gearbox bikes...
  • + 1
 @cthorpe: except you have to run their little cranks which I can't imagine performing well, especially on a DH rig.
  • + 1
 @giantkid97: looks like a ISIS type spindle. Surely they will either a) license that pattern to crank maufacturers or b) change it up a bit to accept aftermarket cranks such as RaceFace, e13 , Hope, etc.
  • + 4
 @karatechris: The up shifts are easy but it is the return mechanism that is more tricky it would seem or is it just not going to happen because of some other reason, after all it is just a scaled down car gear box, but has taken 10 years and not even got to production, CAN it also include a reverse gear so can turn round on a 29er plus bike
  • + 0
 Hell. Yes.
  • - 1
 @WAKIdesigns: upvoted. thanks for dropping some knowledge of markets
  • + 1
 @bman33: it says in the description that it has a specific pinion branded crankset that comes with it. I feel like they could totally be a*sholes and make it a proprietary part. Seems like something most manufacturers like to do...
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: A question was asked in the interview, "How complicated are they to work on?" The answer was better than that which a politician could have contrived. Something about how easy they are to assemble. So my question is: "How complicated are they to work on?" That is if you even need to be concerned about working on them at all. If that's the case then these things are a no brainer for the vast majority of us. Bring the cost way down, low to no maintenance and we might have something to compete with an 8spd wide range standard drive train. I don't need 11 or 12 speeds. Too much shifting. I have 10 now and it is too many gears.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Waki you just salty cus you spent all your savings on the antidote unicorn and regret not waiting for this awsome innovation Wink
  • + 4
 @paulski1966: He's being unintentionally obtuse, though willing to shake Beez177's hand post-masturbation. As you may have deduced since this commonplace skirmish, Waki is something of a demagogue on this site. He pretends to shout that DVO is overpriced, then two replies later complains that people shout overpriced without a supporting argument, with many thoughtless but very expressive shts and f*cks thrown in. But it doesn't matter, because Waki has followers, and followers are clicks, and clicks promote the growth of our host. Same for detractors--a downclick is just as good as an upclick. That's the genius of the site, proving the truism that all publicity is good publicity. From the cliquish to the clickish, it does feel awfully late-adolescent. Look at the flaming that Beez gets for misspelling 'you're,' whereas any number of misspellings and typos in Waki's posts go unremarked if not unnoticed. They must have exiled him from Poland. He avenges himself by promoting Polish-made bikes with long chainstays. Now watch me get flamed, though this reply is a few days late.
  • + 1
 @ceecee: woooow! you should get a millon likes! as of right now all I can offer you is snapchat dick pics, pm if interested.
  • + 1
 @fercho25: Ahh, keyboard warrior courage
  • + 1
 @ceecee: nought wrong with having a long chainstay.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: £345 for a heavy 8 speed cassette! Oh. My. Gaaawwwwd
  • + 57
 Lighter, more compact, and less expensive? Then what's the point of the P-series gearboxes? I can't see much use for the 18-speed version; the twelve-speed's 600% gear range and 17.7% spacing are more than sufficient for almost every kind of mountain biking. If the internals are truly identical, this seems like more of a replacement than a budget option.

I just hope they get that trigger shifter sorted out soon; that seems to be their biggest problem in the eyes of the customer. I wish I understood why it was taking so long. Two cables shouldn't make it that much more complicated.
  • + 31
 @Bluefire I actually rode a pre-production Zerode Taniwha last week with the P1.12 gearbox. I spent the first minute wanting to place my right thumb on something but after that the grip shift felt positive and intuitive. I think you should try it before you knock it. The twisty grip thing seems to work fine for all those millions of motorbikes right?.
  • + 4
 Or just ride the grip shift. Cant remember the last time I used trigger shifters on any of my bikes ..
  • + 9
 I wonder what makes use of a return spring rather than the two cables so difficult in there. Maybe it's just space. I'm sure at some point trigger shifter and then electronic shifter will make this even better.
  • + 17
 @Hockerz ; @Screti: No, no; you misunderstand me. I have no problem with grip shifts. In fact, one of my bikes has them, and I think they make a lot of sense in many (though not all) applications. However, based on past Pinkbike comments, as well as the opinions of reviewers, it seems like most riders are not as open-minded about gripshifts as we are. I hope they build a trigger shifter soon out of concern for their commercial success, not because I personally have something against their current shifter.
  • + 1
 @EstebanPablo: I think the return spring would need to be too strong.
  • + 2
 @EstebanPablo: Maybe the gears are indexed in the box itself, not in the triggers
  • + 15
 From experience, been riding the pinion for a month, the grip shift is perfect for it. Very easy to dump gears. Wouldn't want to use a trigger with this box. The P-12 is perfect for MTB'ing. The range is incredible and the spacing between gears is perfect really. I WILL NEVER RIDE A DERAILLUER AGAIN. We have a DH model and Enduro model.
  • + 3
 @Peregrinebikes: Do you have to let up on the torque to shift, or can you pedal through shifts it like a derailluer?
  • + 2
 @Peregrinebikes: Encouraging to hear. What about the operation of the transmission makes you say that a grip shift is better suited to it than a trigger shifter would be? And are you implying that trigger shifters make more sense for derailleurs?
  • + 2
 @Peregrinebikes: PS your bikes look awesome.
  • + 3
 Seems like Effigear & Cavalerie has it all sorted. Demoed a DH rig this summer. Their trigger shifter solution worked just fine, the gearing is smooth. Just need to get used to the small pedal back when gearing down which is largely compensated by the fact that you can gear-up while powering on the pedals.
The weight was surprisingly low, lighter than a conventional chain system.
Then you add the unsprung mass benefit and the silence of the bike, my next DH bike will be gearbox for sure.
I guess they are priced a bit high, but in my opinion, they are much better and lighter than Pinion with a simpler design.
  • + 2
 @hamncheez: You do have to let off the torque when shift into a lower gear for a split second. Kind of like when you shift a derailleur. I normally would let off some torque until the chain wrapped up onto the gear. (you can masher shift, but that wears your drivetrain faster and can feel like crap.) But you can shift while pedaling going into a higher gear (shifting to smaller gears on a conventional bike).
  • + 6
 @Bluefire: I was skeptical before I used it, but now I think it is great. Lets say you are sprinting into a section of trail, then after your in it, you can't pedal. But at the end of that section you have a tight turn you need to be 3 gears lower to sprint out of the turn. With the grip shift it is easy to dump 3 gears quicker than pushing a thumb shifter 3 separate times. Just twist the wrist to the desired gear. Same concept if you blow a section and need to be 2 or 3 or 4 gears lower. And you don't pedal. I can't tell how much better it is. You will never want to go back. Weight penalty is peanuts compared to the other performance gains you get.
  • + 3
 @fartymarty: Thanks man, wanna buy one?
  • + 2
 @Peregrinebikes: very tempted if you make a 150mm wagon wheeler.
  • + 2
 @Bluefire: Ah yes, I did misunderstand you and I hope you aren't right. It would be a shame if the misperceptions of keyboard warriors about grip shift slowed their uptake in the bike industry. I certainly hope for the commercial success of pinion and others especially if it means affordable gearboxes for the masses!
  • + 50
 The time will come when we tell our grandsons about ripped off derailreus and more sprockets on the cassette then in a swiss watch .
  • + 15
 and they will laugh their ass of when they see old pictures of those swiss cheesewheel sized cassettes...
  • + 13
 Grandpa? So you mean that mountain bikes had no electric motors back then?
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: By then, the hippie mountain bikers will be the derailleur /ig users, like the single speeders today.
  • + 43
 Oh man, affordable gear boxes may be in our future!
  • + 20
 It's the new frame you need to buy to put it in that will be expensive.
  • + 10
 @chappers998: I will gladly cut out the space for a gearbox in my current frame to adopt it, and weld the necessary pieces Smile
  • + 6
 @chappers998: you will need a new frame anyway because of new bb standard, new hub spacing, new ...
  • - 1
 @ZigaK13: Early adopters will get hosed for all us, kinda like people who bought early SRAM 11speed before Shimano dropped XT 11speed for like half the price.
  • + 5
 @chappers998: The rate it's going with axles, headsets, bbs and wheels that won't matter in the slightest, you wear out a bearing, you're going to need a new frame because we use proprietary bearing and no longer stock spares for that model sir... also you need new wheels since our new frame uses a 151.5 Super Mini Boost axle and a you need a new shock since we have adopted the MetroSexual sizing standard.
  • + 4
 @chappers998: I'd like to think companies like Banshee will accommodate. It's a great time for this sport.
  • + 2
 @chappers998: Even if the bike is at a 1000$ premium I think I'd still come out ahead considering the number of derailleurs/hangers/chains/whatever I've went through.
  • + 32
 YES. this is what we need. Take a look at those gears, long lasting hardened steel, enclosed in a magnesium casing away from the elements. Can't wait to see who picks it up for trail bikes.
  • - 18
flag BoneDog (Sep 21, 2016 at 9:14) (Below Threshold)
 5 lbs..... this is not what u need
  • + 34
 @BoneDog: maybe you should just lose 5 lbs. Get over the weight saving bullshit.
  • + 28
 @BoneDog: The XX1 Eagle groupset weighs 1503. A more common groupset people can actually afford, is GX at 1718g. Some people are putting 500g onto their rear end in cassette weight alone. & this gives you greater range than eagle, & puts that weight at the BB instead of unsprung at the rear axle.

If people can have fun riding 50lb e-bikes, they aren't going to notice the 300g weight penalty this costs.
  • + 18
 @groghunter: 300g? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're comparing the weight of just the gearbox alone to an entire groupset, which includes cranks, a shifter, etc. It seems to me the weight gain would be in the ballpark of 3+ lbs for the 12 speed gearbox.

These new gearboxes will add 1800g/3.97lbs to 2100g/4.63lbs, but as you pointed out, a gearbox also negates the need for a cassette and bottom bracket. You'll still need a shifter, chainring, rear cog, cranks, and some sort of chain tension device to allow for chain growth as the suspension compresses (see the Zerode Taniwha for example). Lets assume the chain tension device weighs half as much as a rear derailleur. So if your cassette weighs 350g, your derailleir is 300g, and BB is 100g, then you save 350g + 150g + 100g or 600g and add 1800-2100g for the gearbox. You can probably also save a little weight by using a smaller chain ring, but you're not entirely eliminating the rear cassette because you still need one small cog so I think it mostly evens out in that regard. The gearbox also requires an extra shifter cable, but that's probably pretty negligible as well. I don't know how to account for potential differences in frame weight, but I'm guessing that's also not that significant. That means you're looking at adding 1200g/2.65lbs (6 speed) to 1500g/3.31lbs (12 speed) to your build bike by switching to a gearbox drivetrain. Obviously this is still a very rough estimate.
  • + 25
 @groghunter: actually, you need to realize what there actually weighing.

Pinion P1.18 complete system:

Gearbox 3 2698,0 g
Twist shifter 95,0 g
Crank arms „CNC“ 175 mm 4 434,5 g
Chain tensioner 5 122,0 g
Chain ring 30t 51,0 g
Rear sprocket 21t 29,0 g
Sram Chain 260g
Total weight 3.69 Kg

Sram Eagle x01
Derailleur 276g
Casset 354g
Shifter 124g
Chain 260g
crankset with 30t sprocket 520g
gxp pressfit ~100g
1.634 Kg

That means a pinion set up would be an additional 4.4 lbs or 2Kg in comparison to an X01 Eagle!!!!
  • + 12
 With todays bike weights, that is substantial, where talking 15% - 20% added weight in the drivetrain alone. Additionally, this poses a new challenge for frame manufacturers and crank manufacturers. Even more so, there is more energy loss in a gearbox submerged in oil than there is with a well lubricated bike drivetrain. I like the idea, i see it in some applications such as e-bikes and extreme terrain / conditions, but I don't see how this could ever compare with the proven drivetrains of today. They are efficient, light weight, and simplistic, making them very difficult to beat.
  • + 3
 @XxbrennanxX: tell that to a racer.
  • + 9
 @BoneDog: because Eagle is realistic to most buyers? here's a comparison to XT: www.bicycle-junkies.com/gear-reviews/62-gear/178-review-pinion-p1-18-gearbox-with-gates-cdx-belt ~1300g penalty there. front der& shifter is a wash when comparing a 223g XT cassette to a reasonbly priced wide range cassette.

Oh, & that's the old pinion, with a 2700g gearbox. go to the model most people here would pick, the 1.9, which still has more range than eagle, & you've shaved that 1300g penalty down to 600g.

That's less than the difference between a set of DH tires & a set of EXO tires.
  • + 4
 @groghunter:

XT M8000

Derailleur 280g
cranks with sprocket 700g
shifter 126g
cassette 430g
chain 257g
bb ~ 77g
Total weight 1.87 Kg

Pinion 1.9:
Gearbox 2350,0 g
Rotary shifter 95,0 g
Crank arms „CNC“ 175 mm 434,5 g
Chain tensioner (Federstärke: 2,5 mm) 122,0 g
Chain ring 24t 37,5 g
Gearbox Spider 104 mm 40,0 g
Rear sprocket 21t 29,0 g
Sram Chain 260g
Total Weight 3.367kg

Thats a difference of about 1.5 Kg ~3.3 Lbs
  • + 27
 you guys are going absurd with the comparisons. First, we're talking this gearbox, it's lighter than the P1.18. Second, comparing a gearbox meant for the average rider, to the most expensive ultra-light groupset is a bit of a stretch. third, it's less than 5lbs difference because you can also run a fixed rear hub. Fourth, the majority of weight is completely removed from the swingarm, which is unsprung weight and will net an improvement for suspension performance, something Eagle cannot ever claim. Fifth, which I chose not to plead, is that the Eagle cassette will be worn out after one, maybe two seasons. This gearbox will not wear out.

so, instead of arguing about about 2lbs-3lbs (a realistic number, compare the new, lighter unit, to a group-set people actually run, not Eagle), hit the squat rack once a week and it won't make a lick of a difference on your daily rides. heck, it will probably improve how your suspension works (traction) and less time spent on buying a new cassette each season (something I do) or tuning up the drivetrain or cleaning it. to me, it would be awesome.

So again, I believe this is what we need. A viable, somewhat cheap gearbox option. We have the option to run eagle already (if we're dentists), this is the direction a lot of us daily riders want.

edit, I see the comparo to XT is about 3lbs. Not bad, and I'll take it. It means better suspension action (physics yo!), and a longer lasting setup. Totally worth it imo.
  • + 10
 @BoneDog: I'll tell that to a racer and couch in terms of better suspension performance due to less unsprung weight.

If you're an XC guy, this doesn't matter.

If you're a gravity guy, this DOES MATTER! The ability to deal with something that would give dirt roadies fits is exactly what separates a good gravity oriented bike from a bad one.

Thinking of weight in absolute terms should be dated in this day and age. WHERE the weight is on a bike counts for a great deal.
  • + 3
 @atrokz: Clearly it takes guys that wrench on old Volvo's to shed light. ;-)
  • + 3
 @BDKR: The kids have no idea. you don't argue with people who can get hundreds of HP more from old motors. You just don't do it, because at some point they learn about what numbers actually mean in real applications. lol
  • + 8
 @atrokz: it's 3 lbs if you use a chain & tensioner. realistically, it's looking like gearbox drivetrains are going to go hand-in-hand with a belt drives, with FS bikes having their main pivot rotate around the drive cog on the gearbox, because that's how you make them weight competitive.

So, with the setup most bike brands are likely to ACTUALLY BUILD, not @bonedogs obsession with how much a chain & tensioner weight proves him right, it's about 600g. or, as I said, the difference in weight between DH tires & EXO tires(which is a lie. actually, the difference between a pair of HR2 DH 2.4 & EXO 2.4 is 780g. this is lighter than putting DH tires on your bike. significantly.)

Oh, & he straight up lied about the gearbox weight. none of the models above weigh more than 2100g, but he shows a weight of 2350.
  • + 5
 @groghunter: that makes sense. I want it. I just put a 350CR on my bike, a heavier fork than the 34 it replaced, and I rode my Kelso loop faster right away. Sometimes a bit of weight improves the ride. I feel like this would be an improvement to the overall experience if it pans out. Less work, more fun. Can't beat that, unless you need those grams off.
  • + 3
 @atrokz: fo sho. I get the other side of it too, it's easy to chase numbers. I'd like to swap my Pike for a Diamond, but with the Pike, I'm about 30.95 lbs. That puts a sub 30 lbs bike weight within reach(only carbon on the bike is frame, & I've got one of those GX full pin cassettes, so I could get there with components.) that extra .5 lbs of the diamond puts it pretty far out of reach, & makes it hard to pull the trigger.

It'll also clash with the frame, even in black. Razz
  • + 8
 @groghunter: color is clearly the single most important consideration. haha.
  • + 12
 @BoneDog: @BoneDog: 3.3lb to never smash a rear mech off again? Deal.
  • + 7
 @BoneDog - gearbox is: useless for XC (weight+efficiency loss), a "maybe" for a non-racing Enduro guy, and an absolute no brainer for a DH bike. I won't go into details of how ridiculous it is to make Saint or X0 drivetrains for DH bikes. Gearbox puts mass into the center of the bike, removes over half of a pound off the swingarm and that's a lot in terms of efficiency of a bike made to ram into bumps. Gearbox adds all that weight to the place where it least matters and is least perceived. They may do a cheaper and lighter 6 speed DH specific gearbox.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm still not sold on the efficiency argument: every measurement seems to be of a freshly cleaned, lubed drivetrain. somebody needs to run the same test on a bike that's not seen a lube bottle for a month, or is at the end of 20 miles of mud, & see how much it's decreased. because those things won't affect a gearbox bike nearly as severely.
  • + 0
 @groghunter: we won't know until it's more popular and people test it through and through. I'd buy one if I was after a new bike and someone gave me a fat discount.
  • + 4
 Weight differences aside, the most significant improvement a gearbox would make to my riding is the lack of noise, and precision when shifting. Those are huge pluses to me. I would gladly wear an extra kilo if it meant a silent ride.
  • + 3
 @ButtersNZ: Also, you can shift under load & without pedaling.

@WAKIdesigns: you got me backwards: I want someone to test a dirty conventional drivetrain.

As long as the gearbox is sealed, I don't see much point in testing how it preforms after you've ridden through the mud, because the answer will be "exactly the same."
  • + 2
 Just an aside but does anyone know what happens if you pedal backwards while shifting with a gearbox?
  • + 4
 @ButtersNZ: Shouldn't matter. you're not moving a chain across a cassette, you're just changing which gear set in the box is engaged. but all the gears are always meshed with each other.
  • + 5
 @groghunter: there's a web site called friction facts that did exactly this, tested the eficiency of a dirty drivetrain vs. the lubed and cleaned one. There's a 30-50% increase in drivetrain losses. It sounds a lot, but it goes from 96% efficiency to 94%.
Even in the worst case scenario - max crosschaining, smallest sprocket, it is still more efficient than a gearbox. But not that much that it matters in my opinion.
www.friction-facts.com/test-results/free-dirty-chain-test
  • + 2
 @ZigaK13: I won't find it now but the worst case scenario for a standard drivetrain was 5-6% - dirty, crossed (middle front/ smallest rear) badly lubed chain at the end of it's life, on sprockets at the end of their life. So still less efficiency loss than the gearbox. But that's not a problem for a DH bike, which may have more efficiency loss via ~300g (der+cassette)-speed cog bouncing at the rear. Suspension specialists (Porter, Foride, BFG) are quite clear about that unsprung weight+ chain tensioning+ optimized suspension kinematics. Then you get a slightly stiffer rear wheel.

As I wrote: XC racing recreational - no way, AM - if you really want, Enduro racing - no way, DH/Park - absolutely yes. E-bikes - the first rule of E-bikes, you don't talk about E-bikes on Pinkbike...
  • + 1
 @ZigaK13: Can't look at it due them wanting to charge for it, but they say it's after cyclocross racing. I'd like to see how bad it is after the kind of DH race where you have to pressure wash your bike to get 5 lbs of mud off after each run.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: I will differ and say "absolutely yes" for Enduro as well.

* Better suspension performance
* Greater reliability!!!!!!! Breaking a dérailleur hanger or the dérailleur itself halfway into a stage would be disastrous!
* Do you really need the lesser weight and greater efficiency of a dérailleur for a liason?

And what's the difference between AM and Enduro anyway?
  • + 1
 @ZigaK13: cool. So I have some issues with this. it's better than nothing, but:

At it's worst, it's testing brand new chains that have had 5 dirty races on them. Who runs a chain for 5 rides? They were also cleaned & relubed after every ride, another thing many riders don't do(how many riders do you know who ignore the chain until it makes noise? I barely pay more attention than that, personally) Even then their data shows that a cleaned & relubed chain, after one race, still has more friction than the brand new one.

I might replace a chain once a year. probably more like 2. I don't lube more than about once a month (partly because Purple Extreme is awesome, but still.) I don't do their "Ultrafast Process" on my new chain, whatever that is.

When I relube, I don't

"For Part 3, the cleaning and relubing, the six chains were submersed in a container of solvent and aggressively agitated. They were then transferred to an ultrasonic cleaner and US’d for 10 minutes
submersed in lacquer thinner, then flipped for an additional 10 minutes of US cleaning. The chains were then transferred and submersed in a bath of Rock-n-Roll Gold lube in a US machine for a total of 20 minutes; 10 minutes on one side then flipped for another 10 minutes."

Nor should I, because the grease the manufacturer pre-impregnates a modern chain with is better for long-term lubrication & keeping water out than any chain lube, which is why anyone who isn't racing at this level should stay away from using solvents on their chain at all.

Really, the only thing I can take away from this article is that: a chain that has been professionally setup for high efficiency, at the cost of lifespan, has about a 5w efficiency loss, that even cleaning & relubing every ride, than number can go up to 12w fairly quickly, & that most of us are probably starting from 8-10w or worse with a brand new chain, & the number goes down from there.
  • + 3
 @BoneDog: Why you are quoting the weight of the old Pinion?
  • + 1
 @groghunter: My takeaway from the article is that even at the extreme, that is a ultrasonicly cleaned chain versus a very dirty chain, the difference is 50%. So couple of Watts. You have to take in to consideration that pinion also has a chain and therefore same kind of losses, perhaps somewhat less because of a straight chainline and ss chain.
In a following article they compare a dry chain vs lubed one and the difference is enormous. Like 4x. So if a chain is making grinding, squeaking noises it cost's you big time. Don't bother with the cleaning, just put some lube/oil whatever every month or so and you're golden.
  • + 3
 @ZigaK13: No, the pinion will end up having a belt (because that's how they're getting weight competitive with conventional drivetrains.) which don't have the efficiency loses chains do.

The point I was making about the grinding, squeaking chain is that if at least half of all riders generally wait that long(& make no mistake, if the efficiency loss was noticeable in a "seat of the pants" way, people wouldn't) that the lower efficiency of a gearbox isn't going to be the deal breaker some people make it out to be.
  • - 1
 @BDKR: For a local Enduro race no probs, but for the sht in Alps or EWS where 2h liaisons and 6000 vertical feet of total climbing is where that 5-8% efficiency loss seems quite substantial.

But all in all, to me, it is not a matter of raw facts that makes gearboxes such a subject of scepticism and denial. It is the matter of image. Gearboxes in miuntain bikes are the electric cars of MTB. Prius, other hybrids (or that shitty beyond belief Volvo C30 Electric I drove last Tuesday) have never turned any sceptic into a believer. But then you show them McLaren P1 and people get really curious. Then you show them more and more Teslas popping up and woooooow. Most current gearbox bikes just cannot compete in WOW department with standard bikes. Those Nicolais or handmade hipster HTs and Fatbikes are ugly as fk, they are the Priuses. Necessary evil. Zerode is not really punching through like Musks electric sport car... But the Tanihwa... Now we are talking. Give us more of these genuinely beatiful bikes and people will go "I want that!". If Spec would release the latest S-Works demo as a gearbox bike or these amazing V10s with World Champs would have gearboxes smoothly incorporated into the carbon front triangle, people would be banging on SRAMs and Shimano doors like crazy.

Make great looking gearboxed bikes and the "trend" will kick off like nothing else in recent years.
  • + 1
 it's less than 8% from 98. more in the 5% range. and it's gear dependent as well. IIRC some gears were in the 2% range on par with a new conventional drivetrain in a 1x1 configuration. This P1.9 is apparently even less loss so I'd expect around 4 to 5% in the box itself, which is pretty minor. Also of note, is a large amount of loss on a standard system is from the chain when it is off the perfect chainline. Chains aren't meant to be run at any angle at all, it's a huge no-no in industry as it wears faster and creates more drag when the plates bind on the pins at extremes or rub and wear with even just one gear off centered chainline. Having a straight chain is significantly less loss. Efficiency of a clean, new system peeks at 98%, and goes down as much as 5% to 93% when dirty or cross chained. Also of note, is the effienccy changes with different cogs, large being more efficient due to less extreme radius of rotation. Add cross chain efficiency loss and you're even lower because this loss is multiplied by the friction losses in the chain itself. ultimately, the loss is literally similar to using your conventional drivetrain for more than one perfect chainline gear....... it would be just fine for Enduro transfer stages.

Nicolais being ugly is your opinion. Nothing more. I think they look good in their teutonic way and I'm a known designer with product that sells. So it's moot, really. But I see the point about it being swoopy and carbon in order to sell. Teslas are a dime a dozen here and kinda boring without any real leading edge tech (as much as they want to hype it, it's old tech other than the motor and Volvo is going to smash them a new one in 2018 ), but that P1 though, that's cool. Kinda reminds me of a Nicolai.. ahahahaha
  • - 1
 @atrokz: no, it's not just my opinion, it is the opinion of majority of people. We can bet as much as you want that there's more S-Works bikes in the same price range sold than Nicolais. You may make the same "it's your opinion" case for Prius or Haibike E-bike. There are universal looks for everything, Nicolai is not in that category. Tesla brilliantly made the first car look like a normal car with IC engine, newer model will look more and more optimized for the E-car shape. All sorts of companies spend millions on aesthetics management of form desgn and analyzing the meanings and connotationd behind shapes, forms and proportions. Especially in the car industry. That comes from nothing else but patterns in human perception of things. Do you think that it's a coincidence that Eagle's largest cog is black? That there is some engineering, chemical thing behind it? No, if all cogs were gold it would look stupid big. If you want I can talk about aesthetics for next 1500 words but the point being is that Nicolai bike is not a good showcase for the gearbox to change people's perception of the concept.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Again, this is your opinion, and it's becoming questionable. The new teslas look bad. The font end looks like a frog and they litteraly copy design elements of other cars and combine them into a homogeneous looking blob, and people who think Nike and apple are synonymous with style laud it. Poor example. But this is my opinion. Same as people like the new lexus designs, and I don't. I like some designs, others dont. Design requirements are very subjective for different markets, but you should know this. It's the reason there is different style categories and different types of clothing for different tastes.

The cog is black for aesthetics? Are you sure about that? Because it's incorrect. it's a machined cromoly 11t cog cluster with aluminum 50t cog. This means the main cluster is gold because it's a TiN coating, and the 50T cog being aluminum, it's hard anodized black (type 3 ano) for wear and corrosion resistance. So, it's literally entirely based on engineering and, chemicals. hahaha.
  • + 1
 should also note, that you have an anecdote. This isn't a aesthetically pleasing design based on actual design rules. There is too much interruption and it looks like you drove it into a garage with the bike still on the roof. See how something you like can be seen as unappealing to others, based on design language? So it's not as clean cut as you may think.
  • - 3
 @atrokz: we have nothing to talk about, you behave like a hubbie of an ugly chick. If you were to take Nicolai Ion and put it against Enduro or SB6c, to ask people which one looks best, you would not get anywhere close 50/50, you'd get 80/20 in favor of a "classic" bike. So yes it is my own opinion but it correlates with majority of humans out there. And then I did mention engineering and chemistry because I'm all too aware of the "metalurgy" you mentioned. So SRAM could basically anodize that ring into green and most people would say it looks fkng stupid, yes, and there would be a guy who'd come and say, no it's just your opinion. Acquired taste is called an acquired taste for a reason. The one that makes 100k Lager drinkers per one IPA. If you want to introduce 12 speed, 650B wheels or wide bars, you better cater to Lager drinkers, not a guy who swears by Chocolate Stout. And if you want to make more people like Chocolate Stout, you make Chocolate Lager first (and put it on a Nascar race car). Just because you are unaware of role of aesthetics doesn't make you right, it makes you ignorant, at least to people you hate. End rant
  • + 2
 GEEZE, what a load of tripe. Lets see any of your design work, please, for our humor. Until then you're the ignorant one spewing nonsense, as usual. Aware of aesthetics? Give me a break, lets see your works. You're also not very aware of metallurgy or engineering if you think green type 2 ano is the same as type 3.

this could have been a productive conversation, as you were given respect. with your latest response you just prove you don't know what you're talking about. ignorance at it's best. Stick to the doodles.
  • + 2
 @atrokz: Mic Drop >
  • - 2
 @atrokz: you have obviously seen my design work and yes I haven't really designed La Ferrari. I give you the comfort to stay in your anonymity because I don't give a slightest damn what you do. You just tried to set me a standard I you cannot live up to yourself. You simply ignored everything I had to say because I stepped on your Juggernaut of a bike. Anegdote... Congratulations... fantastic comedian as well despite being so rational.

I call it a day. No this conversation couldn't be fruitful, since we both behaved like two teenage cocks trying to outbluff each other, where the only way to win is not to fight at all.

I respect Nicolai for what they do, I really don't like their Steam Punk looks, but there's enough sun for everyone.

I am reiterating the core of my point that as soon as Yeti-like bike (like Zerode Tainwha) comes with a gearbox the curiosity of mainstream will be brought to such drivetrain solution.

You have a big penis, fantadtic seed, you satisfy women with it, your father is proud of you, your kids will be amazing because you will steer them in the right way, you could win a street fight, you are a hero. I'm a piece of sht of a troll, you could easily beat me up and you ride faster than me. I'm depressed mommy boy I wish I were you. Honestly, I am a load of sht and would love to have you as a best friend and mentor if we lived close to each other. My bike does look terrible, oh and that raw carbon? Oooh, like a custom spoiler of 1996 BMW M3 with 3M carbon like vinyl on it. Whaaat was I thinking?! I honestly thought I am making the best choice from each possible perspective!

I'm depressed really... Haven't achieved anything in life. Unlike you.
  • + 2
 Lol. Man. Look. Differing opinions is like one of us liking bangle bmws and the other not. Both have valid points. If youd like to see my work, see name. Also next tme your 777 787 340 330 380 etc lands, my work there. Its ok to have different tastes. Its why I love wutang and think most modern rap sucks. If someone has a differnt opinion thats all good. Their choice. Their taste.
  • + 1
 @atrokz: don't feed the troll
  • + 1
 @maqusss: You should always feed the troll, if it's belly is full it's not going to try to eat you.
  • - 1
 @atrokz: @atrokz: @WAKIdesigns: what a pair of feckin gay lords..
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: The Geometron is kind of ungainly looking by comparison to a lot of other bikes, and I agree that the Taniwha may be the bike that really begins to help the cause of gearboxes (as if it needs help).

That said, Geometron (Chris Porter), GT (Fury), Mondraker, and Cesar Rojo have been hard at work advancing bike geometry. At least Mondraker, GT, and Unno will make a forward geo bike that's more pleasing to the eye.

Evenstill, I like the look of the Ion GPi.
  • + 30
 I am excited to see a 3000 priced bike with a pinion. Could go rapidly to the top of my next bike list.
  • + 1
 Totally! Smile
  • + 2
 so stoked on this!
  • + 2
 You can all ready buy it, but it's a hardtail. look up cheetah bikes www.cheetah.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/HP_ForPleasure_grau_Pinion_5KS4905.jpg
  • + 2
 Peregrine bikes. I've been chatting with them recently. They have a DH offerring now and an Enduro rig real close.

I'm currently waiting for feeback on their geo numbers.

But yeah... free bump for Pergrine.

www.pinkbike.com/u/Peregrinebikes
  • + 14
 Good to hear they are working on a trigger shifter. Gripshift is a deal-breaker for me.
  • + 6
 Speaking form experience, as I have been riding mine for a month. The grip shift is actually great. I had reservations about it, but after the first ride it is sweet and wouldn't want to go back to a trigger. I have it setup so I have my hand slightly on it when gripping. Works very well. Yes it adds weight to your overall setup. But the benefits are very much worth it especially for MTB'ing. Derailluer's are for Walmart bikes. I would never go back to riding one.
  • - 18
flag stumpymidget (Sep 21, 2016 at 12:14) (Below Threshold)
 @Peregrinebikes: Derailleurs ARE for Walmart bikes, Gripshift is fort those who should f@ck off and shut up.
  • + 4
 @stumpymidget: enter the token angry midget! don't worry! it'll trickle down to kids bikes eventually!
  • + 7
 why not di2 this thing
  • + 9
 Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but don't most full sus bikes have some level of chain growth inherent with their design? A belt drive would have to accommodate that in some way. With that said, I hope this becomes a reality. Nice quiet bike that doesn't need a drive train maintenance after every ride. Yes please.
  • + 4
 You just need a tensioner. My last downhill/park bike was set up single speed with a Yess tensioner, and it was flawless.
  • + 12
 Hope YT picks this up and throws it on a Tues!
  • + 6
 FUCK YEAH
  • + 2
 @wsor1337: I'll pull out my wallet sooo fast!
  • + 8
 Geez, all the weight weenie discussions are missing the point- this is a competitive new angle to the traditional drivetrain, and it is awesome. Yes, current derailleur tech is pretty good, but it's been in development for decades, so it isn't a fair comparison... all new tech evolves and gets lighter, stronger, cheaper, & more efficient so this component's development is pretty impressive considering the timeline. It's the same thing we are seeing with electric vs ICE vehicles, where electric is short on weight & range but right there on power and closing the gap quickly. I am stoked to finally see things used on every other type of locomotion finally finding its way to bikes, so we can lose the fast-wearing, expensive, fragile, poorly designed current drivetrain. Know who bends chains? Nobody, that's wh...er, bicycles do. Dumb.
  • + 12
 This could be a massive shift for the biking industry!
  • + 7
 I don't think the industry is geared up for it yet, though.
  • + 14
 @MtbSince84: in your oPinion
  • - 2
 He's on the. Right trail
  • + 6
 I could understand very well the need for gearboxes 12-15 years ago, when derailleurs were unreliable. I remember breaking a few derailleurs every season in those days (SRAM and Shimano). It is not the case anymore and they are now very reliable and light...and silent with the clutch. I have now 4 seasons on an XX1 setup and the derailleur it is still flawless. It has received so many hits, you actually cannot read "SRAM" anymore on it...but it is still straight, tight, not cracked and shifts fine.

With the $$$ we pay to get light bikes, I don't see why I would want replace the now-reliable derailleur for a heavy gearbox.
  • + 0
 Let me just poke that rear mech with a stick and....oh...no more mech...
  • + 3
 Id take the weight to get no pedal shifting. Also you are talking about never having to worry about chain retention ever again. Bikes would become silent. That is a magic thing too.
  • + 5
 Look at the quality of this thing! It will outlast any drive train in today's market and this is why Shimano and Sram will Not give into this idea. How are they going to make money in the long run if nothing breaks in a few months. I just don't mean breaking in a reliability sense, but smashing a derailleur on a rock on something along that scenario. Things are made to break nowadays so they can make dollars selling you another part. That's my conspiracy theory.
  • + 3
 I believe! Whole point of of that business is repeat customers. I went through 5 xo derailleurs in one season. Same as phones, they self destruct in two years just in time to buy a new one. I'm so excited for this pinion drivetrain! Looking forward to selling off my spare derailleurs
  • + 5
 Good show Pinion!!!! I've already committed myself to my next frameset (at the very least) being a gear box driven one, but this makes the news that much sweeter.

Any chance of this gear box making it's way to the Nicolai Ion GPi?
  • + 1
 Id be surprised if Kalle didnt use this
  • + 5
 1. You have no idea how badly I'd love to rock a gearbox. Please Please PLEASE let gear boxes catch on for mass production and wide spread use in the trail/enduro category. I've blown up 2 derailleurs in the past month.
2. I am not an engineer but is it POSSIBLE to design a gear box that can go on existing frames?
3. What are the major drawbacks and issues likely with gear boxes? (ex with existing drivetrains: bend hangers, blown up derailleurs, bent rings, breaking of chain, not a wide enough range of gears with 1x, etc.)
  • + 5
 1. Thumbs up. TBH, traditional derailleurs have always served me incredibly well, especially now that I'm 1x XT with a clutch and narrow/wide. Haven't dropped chain in literally years. But I would love to see a true challenge to the status quo, rather than these tiny tweaks every year.
2. Truvativ did essentially a two-speed gearbox with the Hammerschmidt. But once you get into more gears, and assuming you're ruling out internally geared hubs, I'm not sure where you'd put the mechanism on a bike with a standard BB shell. I guess you could run two chains up to something in the front triangle...but at that point you've thoroughly defeated the purpose of the gearbox. Best to wait til your frame expires.
3.
a. Weight, currently;
b. Price, currently;
c. Need two cables since there's no return spring (although somebody elsewhere pointed out that there could be?)
d. Difficult to service, especially trailside;
e. Possibly more difficult to jury-rig/limp home if it does fail out in the sticks;
f. The Pinion design puts it right in the way of impact if you case onto a rock or something (also leading to more weight because it has to be burly);
g. Gotta replace the whole thing at once if it fails;
h. Much more difficult to swap out gearing if you are trying to optimize for terrain (as racers do) or you discover you don't like the spread you have;
i. More coasting friction; the chain/belt is moving all the time since freewheeling happens in the gearbox (unless you use a freewheeling hub).

Those are off the top of my head. a. and b. are obviously things that can be worked on, as demonstrated by Pinion already. c. is not that much of an issue, really, just a difference. d. through g. are less of a concern if you don't maintain your own bikes. h. is mostly an issue for XC/enduro racers, who frequently swap at least chainrings to get the best possible gearing for individual races. i. is an issue for any kind of racer, but especially gravity types who coast a lot. A freewheeling hub does fix that problem, but I believe you lose the ability to shift without pedaling, which is one of the big advantages of a gearbox (although I could be wrong about that, and even if that's the case currently, it might be easier to work around than with a chain and cogs). So it's all about picking advantages and disadvantages that suit your needs and preferences. Not that PinkBike comments are the place for that kind of logic.... #therecanbeonlyonerightanswer
  • + 2
 @bmck: Thanks! super insightful!
3a-c. nail on head, currently Smile
3d-e. possible more difficult but theoretically more durable. You could also make the argument when changing from a rigid bike to any type of suspension. to get into PB sassy pants mode: "I think we all agree suspension is a good thing"
3f. There is a possibility of a bashguard. I know they are not popular but they are essential for where i ride.
3g. pretty much the same this with a rear derailleur.
3h. possibly - would depend on the design i imagine. old/crappy 3x drivetrain (i know now one uses them any more but hear me out), crappy ones are bolted together, more expensive ones allow you to swap out.
3i. I've never ridden a gear box but I imagine i would be totally ok with not being able to shift unless pedaling to reduce/eliminate coasting friction as pedal shifting is the current method.
  • + 1
 @bmck: There is also noticeable loss in efficiency, like 5-8% (= you loose noticeably more energy put into pedaling). However, I can find no exact figures on this one.
  • + 2
 @bmck: Been on mine for a month. Will never go back. And the benefits of shifting without pedaling is HUGE. I shift twice as much as I used to because you can always be in the right gear and not worry about where you are going to pedal. The gear ratios a very good. There is no discernible drag over a regular setup. Hard to believe, and I was worried about that before I made the jump, but is so small your legs cant tell the difference.

Also chain security and no slippage when you shift if you are DH'ing, just beautiful. Well worth the weight gain. You cannot feel the weight while riding, only when you get it in the air. But because the weight is so low and centered, very easy to adjust to.

Check our page out here. We have a DH model and Enduro model. These are the deal. I would never go back no matter how good you think your derailleur is.
  • + 2
 @lkubica: using a 10t cog on a rear cassette also has a big loss of slightly more compared to say a 16t.
  • + 3
 @lkubica: for DH doesn't matter since Gwin won last year with 0% drivetrain efficiency
  • + 1
 @lkubica: but theoretically, that loss of efficiency is with the design? I'm again thinking of the days when 6" of travel meant you couldn't pedal up anything, even if your life depended on it
  • + 2
 @charles0210: no, it is because you use gearbox which has lots of rotating steel parts generating friction. The same is true for gearboxes in cars which had quite a lot of time to be refined. Unfortunately, this is physics and it is hard to overcome it.
  • + 1
 @lkubica: hear me out, say there is a lighter material like carbon (i am aware carbon would not work for the internals), the gear box was built with narrower gears, drilled more holes in the gears to reduce weight, and had ceramic bearings. all of those things would reduce weight and friction, and possibly make room for more gears.
  • + 2
 There's some development in magnetic gearboxes - practically zero losses, but at the moment too heavy, too expensive and can't handle enough torque (for automobile applications)
www.magnomatics.com
  • + 2
 @charles0210: Some of those things can be achieveable. But a carbon box would most likely be more $$$. I think they can use narrower gears from what I have seen of the open boxes and still get great longevity being a closed system. Overtime they may look at doing this as more and more people get on them. The friction losses with it currently, you can't even tell by pedaling it. It is so small your legs can't tell the difference.
  • + 5
 For now, the DH one makes the most sense. Efficiency doesn't matter, but low, centralized weight does.

Anyone have a good comparison on what this weighs compared to a traditional derailleur system?
  • + 4
 I'd like to know what the entire system weighs, shifter, gearbox, belt and rear cog vs shifter, derailluer, chainring, chain and cassette.
  • + 1
 @PHeller: so a GX group, including cranks, chain, der, shifter, & cassette is 1718. A gates belt is around 80g. gates cogs are between 50-80 for the sizes you'd want here. keep in mind even eagle is only 500% range though, this gets you to 568% at 2000g + belt + cogs 2240g. trying to lookup the crankarm weight for pinion, I'll post again if I find it.
  • + 1
 @groghunter: I just wonder if the 2000g they list is for the complete system or just the gearbox itself.
  • + 1
 @PHeller: www.bicycle-junkies.com/gear-reviews/62-gear/178-review-pinion-p1-18-gearbox-with-gates-cdx-belt call the front der & shifter (~250g) a wash vs a reasonable wide range cassette.
  • + 1
 @PHeller: it's the gearbox only.
  • + 3
 Yeah, trigger shifters! I was thinking about how to mashup an Eagle shifter with the P or C1.12 with a black box in the middle, now it might not be needed anymore! Also, a Pinion would be the EASIEST thing to make electric, as long as a custom housing is provided. Just make the outer surface of the outer gear in the mechanism toothed as well, put a stepper motor on it with a worm drive and there you go. X steps in one direction is one shift, X steps in the other direction is a shift in the other direction. Simple.
  • + 3
 It would be a good first step for all the gearbox manufacturers to decided on a frame mount standard. With a standard in place it's much easier for a frame builder to make that leap knowing that their bike isn't tied down to one particular gearbox.
  • + 7
 Enduro bikes just went from $10K to $20K!
  • + 2
 Nice! I'd consider one in a six speed version for sure.

As a side note, I've wondered if they have considered clutching each gear set on the output end to reduce losses (still constant mesh but only one set engaged at a time). I'm sure it would be more complicated/ costly, but might get rid of the biggest complaint I've heard so far.
  • + 2
 Although the gearbox has been around for a while, this perhaps is addressing the major issues, weight, efficiency, and usability.... I'm sure with continued improvements weight will tumble, already seeing a 600% range, and the paddle shift is in the pipeline..... This is a game changer guys, in years to come we will reflect in amazement that we ever used derailleurs.... If Pinion have nailed down the patent (unlikely as derivatives will inevitably appear) they could possibly be looking at a very bright, and immensely wealthy future....
  • + 2
 The effiency of this box is not discernable between a regular setup. It is the bees knees for MTB'ing. Been on mine for a month and will never ride a derailluer bike again.
  • + 2
 Elephant in the room: efficiency and ... 2100 grams (not clear for what. Does it include cables, frame bolts, extra weight of the frame?), against 400-500 for a top of a line cassette + derailleur at a fraction of the price ...
  • + 3
 Their weight seems to be the complete system. In that case, you need to include: shifter, cable, bottom bracket, crankset, chain ring, chain and cassette to get a fair comparison.
  • + 2
 2017, the year the gear box emerges into mainstream. Too bad with such a huge head start with Nexus and Alfine that it won't be Shimano... on the other hand who cares maybe its a time for a changing of the guard to get bike moving forward in a new, better thoughtful and useful way.
  • + 4
 My JEDI with the 6 speed option.....Ohhh I can dream!!! Great work and innovation Pinion!!
  • + 3
 Make It and I'll buy a 3rd jedi!
  • - 1
 @faul: Sorry, we already did.
  • + 1
 Interesting but one major hurdle would seem to be the massive frame re-design needed to accommodate it. Few OEMs will build frames specifically for this gearbox and then consumers of said frame are locked into this or similar dimension gearboxes for the life of the frame. I wish innovators and out-of-the-box thinkers the best of luck but this is going to be hard sell
  • + 1
 They need to look at getting the public used to gearboxes before anyone would commit to using them on trail/DH/Enduro bikes. The Alfine is gaining ground for use on urban/commuter bikes so if Pinion could get the gearbox on a frame to suit that market then they could get the necessary sales numbers to lower costs and/or invest in lighter materials and processes. Once the general public open up to the gearbox idea then an OEM will be open to trying the water with a trail bike built around one. If they could design a bike with the option of bolting a carrier frame to convert it back to a traditional drivetrain then they shouldn't have trouble selling a few.
  • + 2
 The Pinion is the real deal. Been on ours for a month now. I am blown away by it. It is very much worht the weight that you gain, but the benefits you gain far outweigh that. It makes a derailluer feel like crap. I will never go back to a derailluer setup. Spend some time on one and you will convert.
  • + 1
 @0gravity -> You're right it's a hurdle, but companies take all kinds of risks to adopt new technology especially if there's market share to be had. The big ones spent the R&D on eBikes and I bet they start to offer select models with gearbox options soon, as stated in this article several manufacturers are already on board.

Maybe we'll see both a standard and g-box Enduro, Slash or Capra for model year 2018 or 2019?
  • + 1
 I've been waiting for something like this for years. I tried to switch to an Alfine 11 but it was not off-road capable. But this transmission should be a more modern version of what the Speedhub was, but better. I just hope some American bike makers start making compatible frames. I'm ready to switch away from deraillers forever.
Pinion could help ease the transmission by making cheap "dummy" cases that go in the spot where their transmission goes, and holds a traditional bottom bracket. That way bike makers could slowly start releasing a few compatible frames that could still be sold as traditional drivetrain bikes. Hopefully my next bike has a C1.12.
  • + 1
 Remember when an average DH bike weighed over 40lbs??? Now they're at about 36lbs average. Just give the gearbox idea some time and stop being negative Nancys! It, like everything, will be developed and they'll figure out how to make them lighter. Already Pinon has made huge weight saving developments in just a couple years.
  • + 1
 So the big issue for the people who don't like this is the weight, right? So, look at those gears. They are pretty chunky. Why don't they just make them out of aluminum, drop the 5-year warranty, and sell a lightweight gearbox that weighs ~1/2 as much?
  • + 2
 Let's talk service. At least with a 'normal' drivetrain all of the parts are user serviceable. With this, you'd be removing it and sending it in to a transmission shop. Though I do think gearboxes are the future
  • + 2
 I may be naive on this subject, but what about suspension designs that typically induce chain growth? Would this transmission have built-in backlash to compensate for that? Or will a tensioner be needed?
  • + 1
 Tensioner is needed.
  • + 1
 Really excited to see this improvement, it also bodes well that they're willing to further invest in development of their design. It seems that it's generally been touring bikes that have been using this so far., it would be awesome if a mainstream MTB company picked up on this - come on YT or Canyon!
  • + 1
 Low centre of gravity. Quietness of a belt. Light weight. Sounds amazing! The question is will the big bike manufacturers be willing to partner with Pinion or will their existing partnerships with SRAM &Shimano persuade them otherwise?
Also, I wonder what the belt maintenance is like? How would mud and debris affect the drive train?
  • + 2
 Gearbox with belt drive would be great. I would definitely purchase a mid price full suspension bike with that setup. It would be enough of a jump in technology for me to justify another bicycle purchase.
  • + 1
 Lighter, cheaper? Better! This is what happens when ideas get turned into products. They evolve. They become less expensive while they get better as lessons are learned. When passionate & capable people who believe in a cause & care about making things better bother to go against the grain & disrupt the corrupt, we may finally get the proper solution to the cancer (derailleur) that has plagued MTB for far too long. The gearbox is just getting started, that other garbage has run its course & gone about as far as it can. It's time to move on.

Don't give up Pinion. Thank you for your dedication & service. We need this.
  • + 1
 I've been waiting for this kind of technology to get me into a newer bike. Somehow the wheel size thing just hasn't done it for me. (Or Eagle LOL)
I think its well worth the extra 1.5lbs or so, especially down low, and really bike weight barley affects performance, so count me in! looks brilliant! Can't freaking wait!
  • + 1
 Let's see a carbon frame with the case for this integrated in the design, some carbon cranks and Ti guts! That would keep the weight weenies happy and would keep the cost inline with what we have come to expect!!! Enduurrrrooooooo! Yes, I want one.
  • + 3
 Zerode..... Just use the C box instead of the P box - mounting holes will be the same
  • + 3
 What about efficiency losses through the gearbox? Anyone have any numbers?
  • + 1
 What about efficiency losses through sand and dirt and mud on a chain and/or cassette, or kinked chain, or slipping deailleur cogs, or, worn cassette sprockets, or bent teeth from the chain moving from one ring to the next under load? Anyone have any numbers?

In lab environment, you may show that the gearbox is 95/96% efficient to a chain around two sprockets, but in the real world, there is much much much much more at play.
  • + 0
 @handynzl: all that real world shit drops derailleurs to the 93-94% range according to a poster above but he links to a study you have to pay for.
  • + 2
 This would save me so much cash by not having to replate yet another derailiuer that ripped off my bike. I wonder if I would like the belt or chain better?
  • + 1
 Is that an ISIS spline on the axle? Or some other proprietary design?

Either way, shame they don't fall in line with one of the better mainstream standards. Any options to change/customize this?
  • + 4
 Finally!! now this is progression!
  • + 3
 Giant, Specialized, Santa Cruz, any big manufacturer, get on this I want to try one
  • + 1
 So what would be the weight difference between a total derailleur chain set chain drivetrain versus a gearbox belt drive train?? If anyone knows it would be greatly appreciated
  • + 1
 XT 1x11 - cass/shifter/rd is approx 900 grams
  • + 1
 Haha! I was thinking of the same thing (and I am sure a lot are too). Just quickly, I think the three things that a gearbox will replace are the chain (I'm assuming a belt has negligible weight), cassette and rear derailleur. That's about 800-900 grams there. So a net gain of 1200 grams (2.5 lbs)?
  • + 4
 @microfiz: It's not a straightforward comparison.

Beyond the other parts not accounted for (Bottom bracket, chainring), it looks like the gearbox requires less frame material around the bottom bracket. I doubt you're going to save enough weight on the frame to achieve parity with a traditional drivetrain, but it might be close enough that the weight increase isn't significant.
  • + 3
 2100grs... what´s the weight gain or loss compared having a rear deraileur, cassette, chain (if using belt)?
  • + 3
 XT 1x11 - Cass/shifter/RD is approx 900grams
  • + 4
 @Jaredslide160:

That includes cranks though. The article isn't exactly clear as to whether or not the 2100g figure includes Pinyon's cranks.
  • + 2
 @Jaredslide160: That includes cranks/chainring/BB though.
  • + 1
 @mestapho: don't forget BB + crank arms + chain
  • + 1
 @koshki: You'll need that (sub belt for chain) with a gear box too
  • + 1
 @mestapho: OK. - chain, + belt (not included in specs)
  • + 1
 Just go on the link and subtract the weight of the items you don't want to include, or add the weight of the cranks/sprocket/whatever onto the gearbox weight. not hard really
  • + 1
 @Jaredslide160: The issue is that it's unclear as to whether or not Pinyon's weight figure includes cranks, so it's unclear how to compare it to a traditional drivetrain (i.e. do I compare their 2100g figure to SRAM GX with or without cranks?).
  • + 4
 Take my mother fu#kin' Money! I hope this takes off.
  • + 5
 The future is coming
  • + 3
 • Shifter: Twist-grip indexing


...you're f*cking kidding.
  • + 3
 transmission efficiency please?
  • + 15
 42
  • + 1
 Great work Pinion! Its nice to see company's thinking differently and I for one am seriously looking at a new Taniwha with pinion as my next rig
  • + 2
 I remember truvativ Hammerschmidt, and people said the drag in the system was noticeable. Just sayin'
  • - 1
 A CVT transmission would be a better fit for a bicycle. CVT would require less gears and therefore much less weight. Pinion's tech is DOA to me since it will never be light. Bike engineers should replicate the best motor/car technologies rather than trying to create tech from scratch.
  • + 2
 CVT efficiency is awfull. Don't forget weight and space issue too.
  • + 4
 My commuter has a Nuvinci 360 rear hub (CVT). Rear wheel is 12 lbs. All in the worst place on a bike.
  • + 1
 Shutup and take my money, waiting for the vpp gear box bike! Gripshift os shitty for the graviti, however better than rear del.
  • + 1
 Does anyone even really want this? I don't have any complaints about my XX1...?

Very interesting read, but just not sure who the target audience is?
  • + 3
 The best GearBox is here : www.effigear.com/laboite #frenchtouch
  • + 1
 Very interested but first they need to develop trigger shifters, I can't be dealing with Grip shift.... But almost silent drive train is very attractive!
  • + 1
 A side by side of two identical rigs save for one being Pinion and the other Rohloff. Please!
  • + 1
 No such thing. The pinion requires a total frame redesign.
  • + 1
 wow! If the bolt pattern matches, you can install a Shimano Steps motor in the frame and voila! E-MTB!
  • + 1
 If they only put it on a version of Liteville 601 (for an example MK4 Pinion)... Smile
  • + 3
 Brace yourselves
  • + 1
 crabon belt gearbox is off the chain yo but gripshifters will trigger most riders into saying no
  • + 2
 This almost turns me on but I heard it's 2kilos.
  • + 2
 Magnesium and rock strike
  • + 0
 Brahahahaha! Wildfires everywhere from the resultant sparks!
  • + 1
 @WasatchEnduro: No I mean smashed gearbox
  • + 1
 I am very happy about this. I also want FREAKN BELT DRIVE. AM I YELLING? YES! GOOD!
  • + 2
 That's one machine shop I'd kill to work in.
  • + 1
 There are cooler products out there to machine if you're willing to go that far Wink binderdundatgotthetshirt
  • + 3
 Die derailuer die!
  • + 3
 I am aroused
  • + 2
 Trannies are so hot right now!
  • + 0
 Why do they spec their gearbox with 250Nm input torque?
That's insane, it's 280lbs on a 175mm crank.
German overengineering, you did it right.
  • + 0
 145 kg sur une pédale me semble être une bonne limite
  • + 1
 Very interested! Thanks for investing your time and money into this endeavor... it's been a long time coming!
  • + 2
 sweeeet ! does it come with paddle shifters as an option ?
  • + 1
 Save weight with tune crankarms

www.tune.de/en/produkt/black-foot-isis
  • + 1
 I would get the 6 speed one just so I can pretend I'm driving a racecar
  • + 1
 will there be an electric shifting option?
  • + 1
 So how often do I need an oil change?
  • + 1
 every 10,000km
  • + 0
 Pretty cool, it might even reduce the drive friction versus using a chain, or at least be whisper quiet.
  • + 1
 what a bunch of dbags on here haha
  • + 1
 Finally, bikes with reverse.
  • + 2
 Meh.
  • + 2
 Kill the derailleur!
  • + 1
 will there be an oval version?
  • + 1
 no, because the chainring doesn't spin with the same speed as the pedals
  • + 1
 @ZigaK13: The chain ring is still attached to the cranks, so you can run an oval chainring. The gears inside the 'box will always be round though, just as they are on a cassette / oval chainring setup now. The 'box basically puts the cassette above the crank shaft, instead of on the end drive of the chain. The 'box changes your cadence essentially, exactly as current setups do - you don't pedal at a constant cadence and by some miracle the chainring rotates faster or slower subject to the gear you are in.
  • + 2
 thanks guys! was kinda trying to be funny there!


#humourfail
  • + 1
 @handynzl: If the chainring was attached to the crank the gearbox wouldn't be doing anything, it would just be sitting there being heavy while you rode a single speed. Your pedalling input goes into the box which then steps up or down that speed into the chainring which drives the wheel.

Have another look.
  • + 0
 @Patrick9-32: I must be shit box crazy to think that the chainring is attached to the cranks as per all these images tinyurl.com/jb7aq2x

I especially like this one www.bicycle-junkies.com/images/pinion-p18/pinion-p1-18.png

(if you're too lazy to have a look at the links, I'lllet you know that all the chain rings on the pinion 'box are attached to the cranks)
  • + 1
 @handynzl: www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKdN8_Ilnyc

This video shows the chainring running at a different speed from the crank and, more crucially, being in place with the right crank not on the box. If the chainring was attached to the crank this wouldn't be possible.
  • + 1
 This is so awesome. I imagine this being the future of gearing in MTB.
  • + 0
 I want 6 speed over 500%+ range.
  • + 1
 That'll have some massive jumps in cadence between gears.Your knees will love you
  • - 1
 @handynzl: If you have time to establish cadence - your trails suck.
  • + 1
 @Axxe: My trails suck? what has a trail got to do with anything to do with gearing percentages?

Lets assume that you have a 9-tooth small sprocket. To get 500% you need to have a 55.555 tooth large sprocket (lets call it 55 for shits n giggles). Now you want that spead over another four gears, so evenly spaced you'd end up with 9T - 18T - 27T - 36T - 44T - 55T. I invite you to remove all your cassette rings between 9 and 18T, and between 18 and 27T and then tell me how lovely that feels to ride, on your so not sucky trails where apparently you don't need to establish cadence, which would mean never pedaling at all, considering even 1 revolution per minute is a cadence...infact even a quarter revolution per minute is still a cadence...
  • + 0
 @handynzl: Nonsense. People, myself included, ride just fine with a single speed. And we got real hills here in California. Six speed would be more than just fine. It is more than any mountain biker needs.

Cadence and power meters and micro optimizations is for roadies and idiots.
  • + 0
 I can sense wireless pinion shifting int he near future.
  • + 1
 Bashguard?
  • + 0
 I would like this on my bike very much!
  • + 0
 It's great to see Pinion shifting gears with the C1.
  • + 1
 This is off the Chain!
  • - 2
 Fuck off
  • + 0
 Good
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