Legends abound among cyclists about the advantages of one material over the next. Hyperbole passed from one generation to the next about the magic feel of steel, the superiority of titanium, the rigidity of aluminum and the lightness of carbon persists in the minds of rank and file riders as hard fact. The reality, if there is a way to establish a point from which "reality" can be judged in the bicycle industry, is that materials and the methods used to manufacture things from them are constantly evolving. What was bad yesterday may very well be good today.
Gary Klein introduced the proper use of aluminum for making bicycle frames, but it was Cannondale that dragged the bicycle world, kicking and screaming, into the aluminum age. Few, if any bike makers have produced an aluminum-framed bike that could outperform Bethel's best. (Claymore, AM/Freeride bike)
The structural use of titanium, for instance, was banned from motorcycle racing in the early 1980s because parts were breaking left and right. Today, that ban still holds, but it shouldn't. Titanium is well understood now, and is used where only metal will do and where reliability is an absolute. The compressor fans in commercial jet engines come to mind, but a 29er hardtail frame could make that argument as well.
Mountain bike riders will happily stand on two ten millimeter titanium pedal axles and huck to flat. (Spank Oozy pedal - aluminum body, Ti Axle: 300g)
About the same time that titanium was banned from moto racing, aluminum, the most ubiquitous material in the modern bicycle, was being soundly trounced by both bike makers and the press as unfit for making bicycle frames and forks because of its lack of stiffness and short fatigue life. Today it is considered the safest material from which to construct its most critical components: the fork steerer, crown and stanchions; its bottom bracket axle, the hub axles, and the handlebar and frame. Magnesium, the metal used to make most fork sliders, survived a similar beating from naysayers.
Santa Cruz was quick to switch to carbon for its V10 DH racer after its carbon trailbikes blew away their aluminum counterparts in weight, strength and reliability.
And now carbon has evolved beyond the angry mob's doomsday predictions. Case by case, the stuff has overturned popular conventions of strength vs. weight, reliability and stiffness. Carbon is rapidly replacing critical aluminum components almost everywhere on the bike. How often have we heard a component maker swear off carbon, saying that aluminum is the better and safer choice for a frame, bar, stem or whatever - and then announce later, as Renthal most recently did, that they had discovered a method to make a superior carbon replacement?
Renthal espoused aluminum as the best-choice material for its handlebar range and was one of the most noteable carbon hold-outs, until they shocked us with the Carbon Fatbar release.
More often than not, now-a-days it is the part's MSRP, not the optimum material for the job that influences our choices. Sound engineering dictates that the best materials and construction techniques be used for each application on the bicycle. Sound business practice says that the most economical materials and manufacturing methods be used to make all those parts affordable. Producing a performance bicycle, even a $10,000 model, is constrained equally by both rules. If a bike maker says that their model X was a cost-is-no-object design, it's bullsh*t. But, what if the retail price actually was taken out of the equation?
So, the question for today's Pinkbike poll is: If the price was equal, and the best methods and materials were used to produce the part, which material would you choose? We limited your choices to major components and the materials which are widely available for each option.
Personally I don't want to ride a bike made of that.
Schnarrf schnarrf
boingboing.net/images/adamant2010.jpg
Cant Imagine a material refined from this
Does what I want and its fun for me.
Having said all this..... has anyone seen X-Men? That adamantium stuff seems kinda legit!
Titanium has a beautiful ride to it though. Actually I have an old litespeed unicoi softail frame sitting in front of me right now. It's a rad design: the seatstays and seat tube are connected by a 1" stroke shock, and the chainstays are designed to flex as the suspension moves. Rides just like a hardtail but practically eliminates chatter/vibrations. Funky flexy designs like that are really only possible with materials like titanium (possibly also carbon?). Plus it looks beautiful.
I think the future is in all of these materials, but the way we use them together will continue to evolve. Each material is capable of producing beatiful bikes and components, but some materials have advantages over others depending on the application. It's all in the refinement of the application, and discovering new ways to use the materials together to acheive a desired effect. We are nowhere near the pinnacle, but I believe carbon is going to continue playing a huge role in it.
Carbon holds a ton of promise and will continue be perfected as new methods are explored such as internal latticework, or introducing new materials to the matrix (Anyone seen that cutting edge metal truss system that weighs less than styrofoam yet flexible like a spring?)
I think the limit for carbon is in applications where there is shear stress from clamping forces, which is why it is so difficult to make a stem. Its not that you cant make the shape, or make it strong or stiff or fatigue resistant, its that you have to clamp it at the edges of the faceplate, and the steerer, and the limited real-estate in these areas. Its that binding force and shear stress around the hardware, and terminating the fibers in the most high stress locations rather than having continuity around them. Stems just dont play to carbons strengths as well, but who knows, it's certainly in the realm of possibilities to overcome, but I dont think it will be carbon alone. I could see an all carbon stem if it had an metal binder for the steerer tube, and the faceplate. Similar to the way a seat collar works around a frame to bind the seatpost . Would it have an advantage over an aluminum stem? Probably not after all things considered.
Unfortunately, since cost is an object in the real world, I can't even answer this fantasy land question where it's not.
really like them, done right its the ultimate material but its not cheap, and can be vulnerable to crash damage that would dent a tubular metal frame but may not ruin that metal frame?
previous bikes I've owned too many in aluminium, titanium, and cromoly steel
say Megan Fox or who ever you want!
Anyway do you think the work conditions in the Carbon shop are different than than in the aluminum or steel shop next door?
I believe in responsible sourcing and quality product... and this is beginning to sound like a f*cking infomercial. Sorry. But I'm not sorry. They're a great goddamn company.
For the record, I really wasn't meaning for it to be any sort of debate or endorsement. My apologies if it came out that way.
BTW Santa Cruz have never made their carbon in US, their first CF bike was Blur XC and it was one of the first frames made after their move to Asia in 2008/09. They were saying it many times.
Santa Cruz have not made any bikes in the US for many seasons now, whether CF or aluminium alloy
sad, but true ;(
For me, ti has a certain almost magical feel about it that I don't get from carbon, aluminum or my old Reynolds 531 tubing days.
After 25+ yrs my oldest ti hardtail still carves up singletrack like no ones business. It feels and rides the same it did brand new as it does today. This is why I love ti.
As for roadbiking, it has been my experience that high mileage on aluminum feels like riding a piece of wet spaghetti. Carbon is too harsh and just doesn't transmit the road feel like a ti frame does. Perhaps if I was 6ft 4 inches tall and 220lbs I would have a different opinion.
What I mean by that is to take a current frame or component that is already proven to be of acceptable weight and strength and durability, carbon or otherwise, and then build it out of carbon to the point that the weights were equal to its alloy counterpart, and see Just how durable it can really be.
I think it would surpass everything out their if the weights were brought to a standard for this experiment.
Imagine a carbon wheel with the same weight of a burly all aluminum wheel. Maybe you construct it all out of carbon, or maybe make the spoke bed and bead channel/hook out of titanium, or aluminum, but the goal is for the weights to end up the same, with the highest level of dependability. I would imagine we could end up with some pretty damn bombproof frames and wheels and other components.
I guess I am kind of dreaming of an ultimate end-user bike. Not one aimeded at being that much lighter in effort to put its pro riders into the podium. One that is just not going to give up the ghost Period, and still be light enough to not be total pigs.
Just an experiment anyway. Would want to know just How much stronger they would be than everything else. It would be beyond practical strength, which is why they always end up scaling back and lightening up the frames.
interesting thing about Specialized is that my mountain bike frame (Stumpjumper Expert carbon 29'er hardtail) weighs less than my road frame (Tarmac SL2). 1.18kg for the Stumpy, and 1.3kg for the Tarmac
Tarmac is going good, but I'm on my 3rd Stumpy in 2 years (covered by their excellent warranty to be fair to SBC!)
the 2014 Stumpy frame has had a substantial redesign and perhaps some "bulk" added to critical areas.
And yes, I live and ride in Utah... And love rocks.
Carbon just needs a bit of resin and some cloth and you're back in the game.
...two good examples are Doberman Bikes (Canadian manufacturer) and I-Track Suspension (German manufacturer)
www.i-tracksuspension.com
www.pinkbike.com/u/dobermannbikes/album/2012-Dobermann-Bikes-Catalogue
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10328897
...looks cool but the colour could be different though...
In the future though, you could experiment with bright colours to rejuvenate the image of your brand! How much does that bike weight?
Just for clarification, I-Track Suspension is an Australian company (not German).
A high performance/quality aluminium or titanium using expensive/radical manufacturing techniques will produce components with unbelievable properties.
Also what about mixes and reinforcements? A lot of the aerospace companies are researching and using nano foams to reinforce hollow structures.
There can be great or rubbish frames made from any material, and every material has it's unique properties which makes great for sertain style of riding, even with steel/aluminium manufacturers are still able to push limits and find new ways of making then better.
That said, for most of the appliciations in MTB I'd have to go with carbon.
I'd also be really interested in waste/energy/recycling cost of each material not just retail costs!
I would have to think that some of this is purely market driven, and that this could partly be Renthal just trying to save face. As we know, marketing and perception play a big role in what people think and buy and carbon everything is taking off. Even if their aluminum bar really is better, that doesn't mean people are going to buy it. So from a business standpoint, if they can make a good carbon product it makes sense because whether they are really worth it or not doesn't matter, as long as the consumers think its worth it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmZ1QfZ9Skk
And deeeight: Unfortunately, there still isn't a simple and cheap way to recycle carbon, that's part of why it still is so expensive. But I'm sure that some smart people will figure out a way to solve that problem in the near future.
But I have to strongly disagree.
I would like to know what makes you think that. Firstly, I think that big companies are responsible for the most part in this case. And secondly, Germany is very likely to be the strongest motor for environmental protection and sustainabilty in politics in the world. We have pretty much the highest taxes on fuel and we are the only state that decided to stop nuclear power sites as there is still no clue what to do with the atomic waste. We tried to push transnational treaties against global warming, ban genetically engineered plants, have the highest moral standards on stock breeding, we pay for the water coming through our water pipes because water is a scarce good (hello USA&Canada) and the list goes on and on. The 3 biggest players on destroying the world are #1 usa, followed by china and russia and that's a fact.
The EU is pretty forward thinking regarding those topics. But then again.. nothing is perfect. Especially not in politics.
What about unpayable debts? Suicidal austerity policies? Impoverishment of entire countries?
Do you actually live in Greece, Portugal, Spain or any other country being financially destroyed by "Troika Programme"?
I'm mostly sure that you really don't know what's happening outside Merkelandia. Because if you did, you wouldn't praise the almighty euro so promptly.
There is crazy nanotechnology for carbon fibers happening that could see carbon become even stronger and lighter.
Carbon has been proved time and time again to be stronger and lighter when designed right. why would you choose any other.
must watch this its brilliant.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_J4y_BYem4
I find it interesting how many people will choose a carbon bar but not a carbon stem....interesting.
If a steel frame takes an impact it can bend.
If an aluminium (yes it has a second i in it) frame gives way it may still bend before it snaps.
I've never seen a bent carbon frame but i have seen plenty of snapped ones.
I havent researched into carbon frames that much or bars or any other component for that matter but when carbon stuff breaks it seems to shatter.
Thats not good. I'd much rather land a drop with a droopy alloy bar than a bit of carbon bar bolted to my bike and the other side hanging off.
My major thing with frames has always been welding. We all know that metal around welds is weaker than it was before the heat that the welding subjected it to.
In the automotive world some of the bonding products are ridiculous. Quite a few years ago a company used their bonding to stick two identical cars on top of each other roof to roof, they then lifted them up with a crane and the metal of the roof panel.gave way and tore through the metal before the bonding.
If something similar was used in a bike frame would we have more longevity in that way?
Although on a dh bike technology changes that much that after 2 years the frame is pretty much completely out of date anyway. So does it have to last any longer than 2 years??
Bonding makes sense in cars around long parallel/flanged pieces which sit together. There are not many areas like that on a bike.
That V10 is so bad ass lookin'.
After the engineers figure out what materials are best suited to the application let the marketing guys have their way and tell us how much better it all is and how riding a bike will never be the same again.
That being said, none of these components are tubular or welded. This may be the fear in motorcycle racing. A fan blade is still 10-15lbs each, a big fan disc is hundreds of lbs.
2nd question: Anyone knows why, or has a nice link, it was banned in motorcycle racing?
- Carbon for my AM
- Titanium for my hard tail 29er
- Aluminum or Carbon for my DH
- Steel for my DJ
Carbon is pretty, but I think I would rather hit my aluminium frame on a rock.
Give me a carbon bar the same weight as an aluminum one and I'm almost 100% sure the aluminum one will fail first. This industry is far from a pioneering one when it comes to carbon fiber manufacturing practices, the motocross world is very much the same. Aerospace and automotive engineers have proven that a carbon fiber structure that is design to undergo continual tension stress cycling will outlast aluminum. The mechanics behind a wing and a handlebar are surprisingly similar when it comes to loading force vectors.
Or what about the metal used in the Predators weapons? That stuff seemed pretty strong and light. :-)
Does any one make a Titanium DJ frame?
Tell me why, please. I dont get that.