Review: Box Two 11-Speed Drivetrain

Oct 28, 2018 at 22:36
by Richard Cunningham  
Box Two drivetrain

bigquotesPeople who don’t believe that a task is possible should stand clear of those who are doing it.anonymous

Toby Henderson is not afraid of a fight. He spent the greater part of his life competing head to head with the heroes of BMX and downhill mountain bike racing, but nothing in his professional racing career could prepare him for the battle he would face shortly after he founded Box Components.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when Henderson announced to his team at Box that they were going to develop a derailleur based drivetrain that would compete with the likes of SRAM and Shimano. I’m quite sure that Henderson’s presentation was followed by a moment of silence while the dumfounded guests were thinking, “Did you hear what I just heard?”

When the team managed to catch their breath, I imagine Henderson was blasted by a litany of concerns regarding the viability of such a project. When I asked Toby why Box Components took on such a humongous project, his reply was both simple and on point:

bigquotesThere are only two big players making drivetrains. We think there is room for a third one and we want to be there.Toby Henderson, BOX founder



Box Two Drivetrain

Rear Derailleur: Wide or X-Wide cage options, user-adjustable clutch.
Weight: Wide - 284g/X-wide - 290g
Price: $109.99/$119.99 USD
11-Speed Cassette: HG compatible, 11 x 46 or 11 x 50
Weight: 480g/559g
Price: $99.99/$119.99 USD
Shift lever: Dual-action release lever, up to 4 downshifts in one throw
Weight: 119g
Price: $44.99 USD
Chain: Nickel plated, 116 links, quick-link, 11-speed cross-compatible
Weight:255g
Price: $24.99 USD
Contact: Box Components

Box Two drivetrain
Box Components is a dedicated drivetrain maker with offices in the US and a Taiwan factory.


Box Two: Difficult, not Impossible

Box Two is not the brand’s first foray into the drivetrain business. Box planned to lead with a flagship system, sprouting with titanium bits and a matching MSRP. That was the Box One project, which resulted in a seven-speed DH ensemble that has been competition proven on the World Cup circuit, and a sweet shifter and derailleur for their Box One trail bike drivetrain. The cassette, however, would have to wait.

Henderson says that Box One provided a steep (and expensive) learning curve for the team–but Box needed a more realistic goal if they were to make headway in such a competitive market. Henderson temporarily shelved the development of Box One’s showcase aluminum and titanium cassette in favor of producing Box Two – the culmination of everything that the team had learned, streamlined into an affordable 11-speed trail bike group that could spark the imaginations of both aftermarket and OEM customers. It was a good call.

Box Two Derailleur

“Sturdy” is the word that best describes the Box Two rear derailleur. Its critical parts, the linkage plates and upper pivot body, are 3-D forged aluminum. Both sides of the pulley cage are also aluminum, while the lower “knuckle” assembly is glass-fiber reinforced nylon. Like Shimano, the cable actuates the parallelogram from an arm that extends above and behind the mechanism, but Box hinges it, so it can deflect upon impact.

bigquotesBox Two owners can fine tune the clutch friction with an Allen key...

Box is justifiably proud of their “Tri-Pack” adjustable clutch, which emulates the multi-plate clutches used in motorcycle transmissions. Box Two owners can fine tune the clutch friction with an Allen key to either increase chain control, or reduce friction to attain smoother shifting with less effort at the lever.

Box offers the changer with a medium-length cage that shifts up to 46 teeth, or a long-cage version that can handle their 50-tooth cassette. The pulleys ride on bushings, instead of the ball bearings you’d expect to find on top-tier changers. Weights are 284 and 290 grams respectively, while the MSRP is $109 USD. Click here to watch it in action.
Box Two Derailleur

Box Two drivetrain
Box derailleur clutch
Box's Tri-Pack multi-disc clutch (under the red cap) is user-adjustable. An Allen screw (right image) preloads a pair of spring-washers to ensure the three friction plates generate consistent resistance. The needle bearing is the one-way clutch.


Box Two Twin Shifter

Box Two owners can drop down four shifts with a single push of the thumb lever when faced with a surprise climb. That’s a helpful feature, and as the shifter’s name suggests, the cable-release lever operates in both directions. Similar to Shimano, the ergonomically shaped forward lever will happily shift either with a push of the thumb or with a pull of the index finger. Weight is pegged at 119 grams, and the MSRP is $44.99 USD

Box Two drivetrain
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Future plans call for integrated mounting options to fit the Box Two shifter to Shimano I-Spec and SRAM Matchmaker direct-mount brake levers, but at present, it is only offered with a discreet handlebar-clamp.

I paired the Box Two shifter with Shimano brake levers (which typically offer the most interference issues with bar-mounted accessories) and it provided a wide range of angular and lateral adjustment options.

Construction is economical and designed to go the distance. The well-contoured thumb levers are molded over stamped metal, so there is some flexibility apparent when changing gears in anger. I didn't pull the shift pod apart for a look, but the internals seemed very robust, with consistent action and pronounced index intervals that clearly communicate each shift. The cable adjustment follows suit, also with positive stops and a firm feel.
Box Two drivetrain
Box's dual-action release lever is sculpted to fit both finger and thumb.


Box Two drivetrain
Box Two's larger cogs are riveted to aluminum spiders to save weight.

Box Two 11-Speed Cassette

Box designed the matching 11-speed cassette to be compatible with the very universal Shimano HG freehub standard, which limits it to an 11-tooth cog on the small end. Keeping the costs to a minimum, the team opted not to machine the cassette cogs from a single piece of steel like SRAM does with their XX1 cassettes. Box Two cassettes are separated into three units: Two groups which are riveted to aluminum spiders, followed by a stack of five smaller cogs that slip on individually. The 50-tooth cog (or the 46 if the XC cassette has been chosen) is machined from 7075-alloy aluminum, while the rest are steel.

Box Two drivetrain
Box Two drivetrain

Two cassette options are offered. The more closely spaced XC cassette (11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-46), and the extra-wide range Trail version that we review here (11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-50). If you like what you see and your wheels are HG compatible, Box Two cassettes are cross-compatible with SRAM and Shimano 11-speed derailleur systems, and use the same spline tool. The 11 x 46 weighs 480 grams and costs $99.99 USD, while the 11 x 50 weighs 556 grams, with an MSRP of $119.99 USD.



Box Two Chain

Hey, it's a quality 11-speed chain, and the links are stamped with the Box logo. It's not rocket science, but if you are going to root for the underdog team, you may as well fly the flag proudly. It's nickel plated and made from heat-treated alloy steel. Box ships the chain with a quick link for $24.99 USD. Weight is pegged at 255 grams for 116 links. If you want to spiff things up, the Box One chain has hollow pins and weighs 243 grams, for only $39.99.
Box Two drivetrain

Where's the Crankset?

The absence of a crankset from the Box Two ensemble was not a mistake. After SRAM successfully converted the sport to one-by drivetrains, there was little incentive for customers to purchase matching cranks. No front derailleur means no special shifting ramps on the chainrings, so any crankset with a narrow-wide sprocket will suffice (SRAM and Shimano were probably disappointed to discover this).

Smaller crank makers like Race Face and e*thirteen quickly swooped in to tear flesh from the two giants, leaving Box Components free to concentrate all of their resources upon the more technical aspects of their new transmission. We may see Box cranksets in the future, but presently, the team has bigger fish to fry.




Box Two Ride Report

My Box Two ensemble came wonderfully packaged, but without assembly instructions. If you have previous experience installing a Shimano drivetain, however, then you will be well equipped to tackle this job. Toby Henderson says that they are in the midst of developing online instructions, but it's easy to figure out. The cassette assembles to the HG freehub splines almost exactly like Shimano's XT does, and uses the same spline tool to torque the lock ring. The only other tip I can offer is to run the chain one link longer than Shimano recommends. (I put the derailleur into the smallest cog and cut the chain one link shorter than the maximum length that would tension the pulley cage). That, and using the B-tension screw to ensure that the upper pulley cleared the 50-tooth cog by 8 to 10 millimeters created the best shifting across the cassette.

On the trail, the Box Two system pops off shifts with minimal noise. There are one or two places in the middle of the cassette that clank a little when there is no load on the chain and the derailleur is moving it towards the smaller cogs. Shifting to larger sprockets can be done under power without complaints from the mechanism, cogs or the chain. Individual shifts are slightly slower that I'd expect from a Shimano XT transmission and on par with SRAM's GX-level wide-range systems. To be clear, that represents good performance.

Lever feel was very good ergonomically. I liked the contours of the molded paddles and I have come to appreciate being able to shift with my index finger.
Box Two drivetrain
It's easier to access the release lever while I am leaning over the front of the bike. (Shimano riders will get that.) However, I didn't like the slight amount of flex that the thumb lever had when I was shifting more forcefully. That said, I had been riding SRAM Eagle XX1 and Shimano XTR before jumping onto my Box Two bike, so I had been spoiled rotten by forged aluminum levers riding on precision ball bearings. To Box Two's credit, the mechanism was accurate and responsive to every command throughout the review. I never missed a shift.

The Box derailleur requires more thumb pressure than both Shimano and SRAM to access the 50-tooth cassette cog. That may be caused but the reduction of leverage that occurs when the derailleur's parallelogram is reaching the end of its travel, but that is just an educated guess. It's not a deal breaker, but it can be sensed. I spoke to Toby Henderson about that and he said that the derailleur breezes up to the 46 tooth XC cassette cog, but admitted that it needs a little more push to reach the 50. Box is working on that for the next-gen changers.


Notes on the Cassette

Eleven cogs seems so yesterday since the introduction and widespread acceptance of SRAM's Eagle 12-speed, but there are a busload of riders out there with HG-style freehub rear wheels who could use the extra range that an 11 x 50 or 11 x 46-tooth cassette can provide. Compare SRAM's 12-speed ratios (10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-50) with those of the Box Two (11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-50). The progression between shifts is identical in the middle and lower gears where most of the important shifts take place.

The first three shifts (11 through 15) provide a seamless progression, just like the Eagle cassette does, so all you're missing is the Eagle's ten-tooth cog. The advantage of Box's 11 x 50-tooth option is that it allows 11-speed riders to jump up to the next size larger chainring to get a faster top speed with their HG freehub's 11-tooth limitation without sacrificing a low gear for tough climbs.



Pinkbike's Take:

bigquotesBox Two is a solid performer that clicks off every shift without requiring any attention, and that's the highest compliment that an essential mountain bike component can earn. It's a strong argument that 11 cogs are enough, but that won't convince every rider. SRAM's recent release of its 12-speed NX ensemble puts Eagle in direct competition with Box Two. Both are compatible with HG cassettes, both share the same 11 x 50 gearing spread and both have similar pricing. That missing click, however, will be a tough sell for a new player hoping for OEM sales.

That said, you can’t win the game unless you are in the game. This sturdy 11-speed transmission is Box Components' announcement that they are ready to take on the fight. Their opponents did not become giants overnight. Shimano began their journey by manufacturing a screw-on freewheel cog. SRAM’s campaign to take on Shimano began with a plastic twist-shifter. It may be a while before Box can stay in the ring for ten rounds, but don't count them out.
RC



168 Comments

  • + 88
 IMO this review lacks a simple table comparing the weight price and performance to SLX, XT, and some 11s Sram. I don't want to spend the rest of my morning searching for the data to make a decision if this is worth a try.
  • + 36
 Come on you know Pinkbike doesn’t know how to make conparisons. It goes up like an XC bike and downhill like a DH bike! Oh wait.
  • + 35
 God the nitpicking here drives me nuts. At least they wrote the damn article! Where else are you getting the kind of content that pinkbike delivers? I cant even keep up anymore compared to a few years ago. We are about as informed and spoiled as can be! Do your owned research or wait for the "sponsored" content, you cant have it both ways.
  • + 17
 @map-guy: how dare they suggest editors how to improve an article! These kooks are getting paid a loving wage just to write these articles so yeah a bit of professionalism wouldn't be too much asked would it? I think his constructive critic is relevant here.
  • + 2
 I stop reading at Richard Cunningham name and went straight to the comments section!
  • + 20
 I would like to have a 11-42 Cassette in 8-Speed, but with the current spacing of 12-Speed Cassettes and Chains. So you would have a lightweigth Cassette with enough gearing and a brilliant chainline.

Or maybe smallest cog with 12 teeth for less friction and wear.

Or even better: An aluminium spider with bolt-on cogs, so you can customize your gearing and swap out your most used ones for new ones regularly.
  • + 4
 @map-guy: yeah...but that is literally the point. It would've taken an extra 20 minutes to go through Sram and Shimano competing products, get their weights, get their MSRPs, open up a spreadsheet, and make a quickie table and post that here as an image. And the article could've been that much better.

PinkBike really is...the LARGEST source of bicycle news...in the whole freaking world. I mean...let that sink in. It IS a big deal.
  • + 0
 @andnyleswillriot: OMG ^^^ cracked me up.
  • + 3
 @LOLWTF: What form of compensation is this "loving wage"? Does the check come with flowers and hearts or is it more of a "hands on" type of payment?
  • + 3
 @kamelfront: sram ex1 is similar to what you want
  • + 1
 and the biggest comment about the NX 12 speed price match to Box. It must outweigh the Box 11 speed by a huge margain
  • + 3
 "Introduction and widespread acceptance of SRAM eagle". I accept that I don't need that many gears and an not willing to waste that much money.
  • + 1
 @jimbodunnig: it ain't much more than a shimano setup nowadays. Your point about weight is still tho
  • + 1
 Its sad it actually matters that much to you. Who cares? Ride your damn bike. A few ounces one way or the other doesn't matter and in a blind test you wouldn't feel the difference.
  • + 3
 @senorbanana: you are right. the sram ex1 has a better chainline and wide gearing but it weighs 560g and costs 330 Euros.

Pretty bad deal compared to Shimano XT cassettes or Sunrace. Then the chainline isnt worth it.

I would like a 9 or 8 Speed Cassette with 11-42 Teeth and with smaller distances between the cogs, 11 or 12 Speed-like. Then it had good chainline, good weight, good gearing and if Sunrace made it, its possibly cheap as well.

GO SUNRACE or BOX!!! take the chance!
  • - 1
 @map-guy: tell us more about how self righteous and how much of a saint you are.
  • + 14
 @lluvRIDING: Fair point: I did that research and it's not such a simple table. Box Two is 11-speed, but its pricing and weights overlap SRAM GX and NX Eagle 12 speed. Then, the chart grows to include most of SRAM's 11 speed groups, as well as Shimano XT and SLX. Because 11-speed groups have been on the market for years, their pricing is all over the map. So, rather than post a giant comparison chart, I decided to concentrate on telling the the story: Introducing Box Components, the how and why Box Two came to be, how it works, and about the possibility that Box could gain traction in such a competitive and mature market. Your request for a back to back comparison, however, is a great call for a future "Ridden and Rated" feature where we could dive more deeply into the comparisons.
  • + 36
 I hate to be that guy but... what does it offer over Shimano and Sram? Something nihilistic grows in me when I look at another derailleur drivetrain. Throw all gearboxes and lightweight e-motors at me but this?
  • - 6
flag jamesdippy (Nov 2, 2018 at 0:24) (Below Threshold)
 This!
  • + 25
 This. I would love to see an affordable 7-8 speed wide range drivetrain, this would be something interesting, but another 11 speed with a heavy casette? I can buy Shimano and sunrace combo on 10 or 11 speed and it will work exactly the same.
  • + 16
 The sunrace cassettes have the best gear range of any 11 speed cassettes I know of. 36/40/46 is perfect.
  • + 26
 If it's priced in line with NX Eagle (which is bloody expensive aftermarket), then I can't see why you wouldn't go for Box over SRAM, because the NX build quality f*cking sucks.

Shimano on the other hand... good luck.
  • + 18
 @lkubica: sunrace makes cassettes for box . . .
  • + 7
 @clink83: This is a re'branded Sunrace cassette, now I'm wondering if the shifter is too?
  • + 12
 We should support companies coming to stop sram and shimano duopoly duo poly double monopoly beta testing
  • + 2
 @lkubica: Agreed. Changing maybe a little clunky due to the big gaps between cogs but you would save a few hundred grams.

Maybe I have to bodge one together out of an existing cassette and give it a go.
  • - 9
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 2, 2018 at 2:33) (Below Threshold)
 @fartymarty: I will be building a bike some could call 4x. 6 sprockets in 10sp spacing on a Single speed hub. 11-28 for 34 front. It will be my primary work out bike. The goal will be to be forced to crank the shit out of my legs on 1-1.5h ride. Obligatory sprints into a climb into a f*cking hard slow grind. 150 hand operated dropper, only for recovery and for maxed out range of motion for descents, launching roots and manualing everything possible. That will be a hardtail that will actually be able to up the game on FS.
  • - 8
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 2, 2018 at 3:03) (Below Threshold)
 @nojzilla: yes! I’ll say more. I’ll make the bike 27,5” compatible as long as the tyre is no thicker than 2.3” ikon/xr2. Cs adjustable 390-410. 67.5 ha with 100mm fork and 415 reach. Look, it will be unrideable!
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm about to do something similar on my 29HT. Single speed, rigid with dropper. Will force me to either ride fast up hills or walk and I will have to commit 100% to DH lines.

Then when I get a FS bike I can reap the benefits.
  • - 9
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 2, 2018 at 3:50) (Below Threshold)
 @fartymarty: with all due respect to you and our online friendship... how do you take skills from rigid to a FS... I meant that my skills will go up by having one bike for pumptrack dj, bmx track, skate park, gate starts and cornering drills on flatland and then I can take it to the woods for stamina. Simply a dj that can ALSO be ridden in the woods. I personally cannot imagine myself learning anything on a ht in the woods anymore. Other than pedalling my ass off. Maybe getting used to shaking my eye balls out of eye sockets Big Grin

Anyhoo, we were talking about drive trains. 11-42 6 speed clusters please, and more hubs with short freehub bodies, for those who worship the quad burn and rock solid backs.
  • + 9
 @WAKIdesigns: No offence taken -

Rigid to FS is about developing your deathgrip and upper body strength. Once on a FS you realise you can go faster and harder and you wont die. Since riding a HT my brain is getting better at interpreting the messages from my rattling eyeballs - cranial image stabilisation.... Plus riding RSS allows you to grow a hipster beard, drink farty ales (of trendy IPAs) and wear lots of plaid (none of which I will do).

BACK ON TOPIC...

Yes 6 or 7 speed wide range cassette that doesn't weigh a stupid amount. Out of interest Sunrace do an 8sp 13-40 but it weighs more than my 10sp 11-42 so there's not point - I will stick to double shifting.
  • + 1
 @clink83: look carefully, that is a sunrace cassette....
  • + 6
 @sam264: Being on my 3rd GX derailleur in less than 2 years, I would have to agree. (They bend easily.) Box is similarly priced to NX, but a little more rugged? Sounds like a great upgrade for all those 2019 models that came with GX last year but now have NX derailleurs specced.
  • + 8
 You don't hate to be that guy!
  • + 1
 Let's be honest, you are that guy and you love it.
  • + 2
 Competition, which can result in price drops. More players the better in this game.
  • + 4
 It offers another dog in the race. The more competition the better. The winner is the consumer if more is available.
  • + 0
 I hate to put down the little guy...but you're right on the money. This isn't offering anything better or that much different than what we already have. The only upside is that maybe they would be better to work with on the OE side than Shimano who has been notoriously crappy the last few years with their supply of components. I could see them taking off just based on the fact a lot of PM's are sooo over dealing with Shimano.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: because your too big of scrub to handle the hardtail
  • + 1
 @sam264: who upgrades their bike with the lowest quality kit available anyway?
  • + 0
 I feel like the only feature worth exploring would be the adjustable tensioned clutch on the derailleur. Depending on the size of your front chainring would put the chain closer or further from the chainstay. You may want to increase the clutch tension in order to keep the chain from slapping the underside of the stay if you're running a smaller chainring.

That being said, I've seen a few of the "round 1" derailleurs break. Not sure if they were having issues with the casting or not, but it was not a robust derailleur at all. I'm all for alternate options for components though, even though I haven't had any issues with my Sram drivetrains.
  • + 1
 Provided they get enough production volume the advantage SHOULD be price. These guys are injection molding many of the components that make up their shifting systems where competitors are typically die cast.
  • + 3
 Lifetime warranty... article didn't mention that
  • + 7
 If theres room in the market for 69 different companies making the same expensive carbon rim, then I think we have room for 1 more drivetrain manufacturer.
  • - 5
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 2, 2018 at 11:33) (Below Threshold)
 @mkotowski1: yeah, because you know what I can and can't do. I've been sending 20 footers on XC HT with 150 fork and V break on the rear at the time you still believed that girls don't fart.
  • + 20
 We really value any feedback we can get. Please allow us to respond to some of these:

Our strategy is to start with the basics and get those right first. After 3 years of development, last year we introduced the Box One group and had issues with some rear derailleurs breaking and a clutch that was not substantial enough. This was a big learning experience for us. We made apologies, listened to critical feedback and through honest eyes took what we learned and made improvements. The updated Box One and now Box Two groups have an all new clutch that we feel works much better and it is surrounded by a derailleur that is appropriately robust. In our next generation we will be offering unique solutions to drivetrain problems, but for now we are going to stay humble and focus on durability and reliability. To reinforce that promise we have introduced a lifetime warranty against breakage and manufacturing defects on all Box product. Please keep in mind that we also have to respect and navigate through a sea of competitor patents in this area. That is the main reason why there are only 2 others.
  • + 11
 @kingnothin: Last year we started a relationship with Sunrace for cassettes so that we could focus on shifters and derailleurs. We did not have the balls or resources to take on all 3 products at the same time. It is a good thing we didn’t as we had so much to learn from our derailleur experience. For 2018, we invested time and money into developing a modified version specifically for Box together with Sunrace. The spider design is the obvious identifier, and we will continue to refine and modify as we learn.
  • + 9
 @lkubica: Less gears with more range? Not mentioned in this review but our Box Two 9 speed 11-50T E-bike group: uses a cassette with fewer cogs and wide range. This cassette was developed with Sunrace exclusively for Box and several of the cogs and the concept were a Box contribution. The idea here is that with more torque there is less need for so many gears as long as we make the steps consistent. We are getting positive feedback so far and would like more input from consumers with this first foray into something a little different.
  • + 6
 @henrybsick: For the Box Two tier we use injected nylon with fiber reinforcement on the derailleur knuckle and shifter levers. At the Box One tier we use carbon fiber reinforced nylon on the knuckle and a die-cast aluminum pull lever on the shifter. Most other parts on both derailleurs are forged aluminum.
  • + 2
 @TobyH: 9speed wide range is what we want ! Currently running eagle NX and let me tell you it is rubbish as the sertting window is so narrow for it to work half decently. My 10spd setup that went from my previous enduro FS to my HT still shifts better than eagle after 5 spins despite 2 seasons under its belt.
  • + 8
 @TobyH: Thanks for taking the time to address everyone's concerns. Good customer service goes a long way in this industry.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: well then you should know that there is always more to learn on a hardtail, whereas a full susser tames the trail a hardtail forces you to be much more interpretive, no matter the skill level. Ps, I been gapping stair sets on a 2003 haro backtrail for a long time, no suspension 20 inch wheels and no brakes cause v brakes suck so the jumps your doing are cool but no big deal
  • + 1
 @mkotowski1: no there isn’t FOR ME. I choose different lines fir HT and for fs, not of being scared, rather due to efficiency. I load it differently, I am less active on HT. Too much hanging onto the bike time vs bombing it down and looking where I want to be. There is nothing I can learn on ht in the woods. I lived that fairy tale for too long. I have spent enough time on it. There is however tons to learn on a ht on pump track, bmx track, asphalt, dirt jumps. It’s just that it is a short small ht, not a 1500 wheelbase piece of pretentious metal with 170 fork. I have done that too btw. We used to call it poor kids dh bike. Rich people call it “modern aggressive hardtail”. Buying a titanium long travel hardtail and being proud of it, believing it will bring something to your fs riding is like posh 60yr olds who move from their 300sqm apartment in Manhattan to a mansion in Upstate New York to herd sheep. I bought a race bmx by the way...
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: well to each his own I feel ya man, I’m just a hardtail believer and no I don’t own a 29 er or a titanium frame, that’s some fancy shit. I come from bmx and You don’t need no fancy stuff to get wild on a hardtail, just a decent set of wheels that won’t crumble and a fork that won’t either.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: never met a full susser that cost less than my hardtail ????
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I also look where I want to be, just have to plan more to get there!
  • + 1
 @loganskis: Plenty of people. Maybe someone who has a bike that's a few years old and wants an easy entry into 12sp. Or somebody that has worn out their existing drivetrain and again, wants an easy entry into 12sp. Either way, I've sold a few NX and GX eagle (when that was the lowest available 12sp) groupos to customers.
  • + 17
 I'm still trying to figure out if Box seriously thinks they can compete without wildly lower prices or any new must-have technology. There has to be a catch to their business goals that we aren't being told yet....
  • + 2
 Good point
  • + 0
 @kelownakona: I bet you aren't in the UK, but in the Okanagan valley aren't you?
  • + 16
 If you're gonna start a new company selling a product you should probably identify a problem then come up with a solution. Am I right? It's hard to find any fault with what Shimano and sram are doing so why would anyone swap their drivetrain for this? It's nothing new or innovative. No new tech. Pricing isn't anything special. It's just another drivetrain.
  • + 60
 How many companies are out there selling stems, handlebars, pedals, etc.? How many of those have identified a “problem” that only their product solves?

And in the drive train market, of all things, there should be only room for offerings from two companies? Why?
  • + 7
 @FuzzyL: Drivetrain is a system. A stem is a stem, just buy one i the right color, it does not break, it does not wear. But drivetrain needs to be reliable and you should be able to buy replacement parts quickly. If you destroy a shimano mech, you can get new the same day.
  • + 2
 I agree, bought a Shimano Altus derailleur because I have a 8 speed cassette, and broken derailleur. It does nothing but work, and it's not even apparently, "suited" for the job. I think a company like Box have to identify a problem, then solve it.
  • + 3
 There's plenty of room for smaller suspension manufacturers etc. Box can sell enough of these to make them a success without needing to steal a significant percentage of that market. You don't need to solve problems that don't really exist, you just need to sell a comparative product for a comparative price, there are enough people out there that would simply chose it because it's not one of the big two.
  • + 1
 @lkubica: I don‘t take it from the review, that Box Components have a major reliability problem. And since their stuff is compatible with Shimano, that “but if something breaks while I’m on a trip through the heat of Africa with no online access” argument seems void to me.
  • + 4
 Who needs Linux when you have Microsoft Windows and Apple OSX?
  • + 6
 @zoobab2: anyone who does not want to pay for an OS?
  • + 9
 The problem is there's only 2 players in the game, whereas every other aspect of mountain bikes have at least double figures of companies as an option. Yeah, this may not out perform sram or shimano, it's hard to beat 20+ years of development, but the fact its even an option is amazing, their second real drive train system and its already comparable to the big boys? That's straight up almost unbelievably good for a new company. It might not have changed anything, but then again did DVO change anything? Not really, just did the same thing in a slightly different way, but everyone raves about their stuff, what's to say this isn't gonna be exactly the same and actually they are a good alternative to sram or shimano
  • - 6
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 2, 2018 at 6:05) (Below Threshold)
 @inked-up-metalhead: it doesn’t matter. Shimano just works. For really good money. And Sunrace is slowly emerging as a cheaper option. It’s like those new tyres, sorry but Minions and magic marys are here. They cover for 90% of people’s needs. The rest is a freak contest. Like with strength training, yeah different oeople react differently to different kinds of training, but the worst thing you can do is to treat yourself as a special snowflake looking for the optimal answer to his needs. That will only make you a perfect prey for all sorts of btchs and aholes selling you sht that is not better but different and often straight forward detrimental. It is hard to accept reaching end of evolution stage, getting nothing but diminishing returns, but it just is this way with life.
  • + 2
 @Kramz: fair enough, but what about the goal of refinement? What if their approach is to take what these two companies have started and attempt to continue to refine? Also, some would argue a duopoly is a problem that could use some fixing...
  • + 3
 The real batte here is into the OEM market. They won´t say they are cheap after market cause this does not adds value to your product. But probably they´ll sell much cheaper than sram and shimano in OEM... so it´s just an strategy for growing I guess...
  • + 4
 @Kramz: The problem is there are only 2 drivetrain companies. I am surprised at the comments in this section denouncing any competition here.
  • + 1
 This has actually been out for a while. I had the Box cassette on my old bike a year and a half ago, and it wasn't even brand new at that time. Not sure why this review is just now out.
  • + 4
 @ThunderChunk - you make a valid argument. However, are you identifying all of the potential problems in the drivetrain market? Some of these issues may be service related for OEM companies and shops. Shimano and SRAM are big companies whose primary business is Spec, Giant, Trek, and maybe some others when you think about the low-end market. If Shimano gets a phone call from Ibis (or other small brand) and Giant with an issue, who do you think they are calling back first?

It's probably fair to say that there is no one in senior leadership at Shimano/SRAM that even knows the name of anyone who works Ibis, Intense, or the other smaller MTB brands. Their orders aren't even on the radar - they are probably labeled as MISC or Small Accounts on a sales report.

Box may be able to take advantage of this by providing better and more focused service to smaller, boutique brands who pride themselves on making quality products and having great personalized service.
  • + 1
 @inked-up-metalhead: Well I had the first version of it and the box system was weaker then SRAM or Shimano and I needed a chain guard again with my NW chainring. I used it for 3 days and snapped the derailleur, the parallelogram was gone.

Something like that even if it is the first attempt is not appropriate. That is for the prototype stage. I am not the Testpilot who get paid for smashing bits into the dust.

I am sick of consumer beta testing. My latest wheel set also from a new company , drivetrain total destroyed every ratchet within 4 month's and only 2000km. The bonding of the wheel it self is slowly going away. I am happy that I hit a rock last week that hard that I Buckel the wheel to replace the rim. Now with the rim in my hands I can see a gap.
  • + 1
 @FuzzyL: I completely agree with you. However, most people choose stems, bars, and other basic parts on style/looks. Sure an OEM 50mm stem will do the job but my spank looks cooler! Maybe these guys will come out with new tech in the future or do something different, time will tell.
  • + 1
 @PauRexs: I'm not sure with the economies of scale that they will ever be able to sell for less than Shimano. That being said, I think Box is the most interesting company to come up in the drivetrain market in decades, probably had the best chance to succeed too. I hope this does well for them.
  • + 1
 @dhx42: that's a great point. I didn't realize that. These guys could potentially take over the OEM market or have better warranties/service.
  • + 14
 Less gears the better. I don't know why we have 76,000 different wheels and tires but nobody can make something like a 11-42 6 speed drivetrain with a clutch for people who aren't roadies.
  • + 1
 I think the roadies want the 10 and 11 tooth gears with a big ring, not the 42. They're the ones who complain they don't have a tall enough gear and they spin out on the flats and sit on the DH.

I've been using the SRAM GX DH 7spd (11-25) on a 27.5 hard tail with a 30t ring. It's like an SS that doesn't spin out as easily and has a couple of bail out gears. 30/25 just happens to be about right for trials play on 27.5 wheels so it's not exactly a hard gear to turn. 30/11 is plenty fast enough because if I need to go faster I'm pointed downhill and I'm probably not pedaling anyway.
  • + 1
 @hangdogr: I started down a similar path years ago feeling frustrated with chain drops (I’m old, pre-clutch), and began setting my limit screws in one ring in each side. I would still have 6 or 7 reachable gears, but the number of chain drops each ride went way down. Really enjoyed having a handful of gears and knowing when I needed to shift, and when I was better served with a creative line.
  • + 1
 @hangdogr: My request for a wide-ish range drivetrain with only a handful of gears probably sounds crazy to a lot of people, but if we have so much variety in every other area of mtb now, why not have niche drivetrains for people who don't want to click through redundant gears? They could even make hubs for it with a wider spoke bracing angle on the SAME axle size.
  • + 1
 @hangdogr: Also, that is a pretty great idea with the DH 7spd on a hardtail, I might copy that in the future.
  • + 1
 @casman86: You could build a cassette with the gear spacing you like on a Shimano hub and the 7spd derailleur. But I know what you're saying, you want options.
  • + 1
 @hangdogr: I thought of that but the big cogs are pinned together on a spider, and the chain shifting ramps probably wouldn't work as well doing such big jumps that they aren't designed for.
  • + 1
 11-42 6-speed sounds ridiculous. The difference between each gear change would be massive and inefficient...
  • + 3
 @Shatner: For a roadie that sits down all the time you'd be right. On a mountain bike with 11 speed everybody shifts 2-3 gears at a time. The only time you're hunting for the perfect cadence is on the road. Tell me how it would be less efficient than single speed?
  • + 1
 @casman86: I ran a 1x9 speed with an extender cog for a while, and I really missed having to sacrifice the 17t cog. The jump between 15 and 20t just felt too big.. especially noticeable during xc racing at certain speeds. Ditched the extender cog in the end. Can't imagine those sort of jumps all the way through the range. Not for me!
  • + 7
 Correct me if I'm mistaken, I believe Box offers an unconditional warranty replacement policy / program on all of their products. I don't recall a mention of this in the review. May matter to some and possibly not to others.
  • + 2
 I believe it was mentioned in a PB article but according to the comment thread it was a really bad interpretation of covering only manufacturing defects.
  • + 6
 Our current drivetrain components are indeed compatible with Shimano which we hope is convenient to those in the South African bush or elsewhere. It is true that we don’t have the resources to service our customers all over the world with localized service centers, but we are expanding our efforts with our distributors. We are also working hard to streamline the warranty and service process. All warranties are handled in one place (through our website), and we don’t ask for proof of purchase or that you be the first owner.
  • + 5
 Would it be possible to also get a Pinkbike review of the Sunrace 12V entire groupset? www.probikeshop.fr/groupe-sunrace-12v-11-50-noir/156680.html The BOX cassette looks like a Sunrace one.
  • + 4
 I really wanted these to be good, but after breaking two and being less than impressed by the indexing I have to say these are just not well built. Maybe in a couple of years they will catch up to the decades of tech that the other companies have to build on.
  • + 5
 I had no idea my 11-40 cassette was more-XC-than-XC. How come I'm so fat then?
  • + 0
 #metoo
  • + 4
 Welcome on board, Box. The more competition the better. You will know by now that the comments section of Pinbike is irrelevant
  • + 2
 @Richard Cunningham
How did you find the 'lever throw' on the shifter?
I'm interested as I currently have a Sunrace cassette, XT mech with the Sun race MX shifter. the problem I have is having to loosen my grip an bring my hand/thumb far back to get the full 4 speed shift. I think it's a combination of bad ergonomics on the MX shifter,only one mounting hole and it doesn't gel well with my brake lever. Also a VERY long throw to get those 4 shifts, yeah I could have stupid shaped hands as well Smile
I find myself now thumb shifting one gear at a time to retain grip and control when shifting in techy sections were the control is necessary. So I'm defiantly looking to change out the MX shifter. Was looking at going XTR but how would you compare the BOX shifter?
Thanx

P.S I think shifter manufacturers should be looking at a massive range of adjust ability. Like bar mounts to gel with different brake levers, lever lengths paddle shapes an adjustable angles like the top Sram stuff
Not every body has the same shape hands so maybe shifters could come with a kit of interchangeable paddles?
  • + 3
 Don't know why the aritcle missed this, but the shifters and deraileurs are all cross compatible with Shimano DynaSync 11 speed, and Box has a lifetime warranty program..... Why would you not give it a shot based on that?
  • - 1
 It's not a life-time warranty.

What it is:

"Applies to non-wearing parts only where the main part of the product has physically broken or snapped.

Lifetime Warranty against breakage does not apply to:
Products that are bent.
Products that have been intentionally or maliciously broken in an attempt to qualify for warranty coverage.
Products that break during installation or as a result of improper installation or incompatibility.
Products that have been modified from the original design, with exception of products that have been cut to size such as fork steerer tubes or handlebars.
Normal wear and tear."

So you pay twice as much (SLX M7000 derailleur is like $55 & the shifter $30) for something that doesn't work as well, and when it wears out you still have to pay for a new one.
  • + 1
 @flunkymonkey: show me a list of products that have a warranty against it wearing out from normal use..... It won't be a long one. I'll wait.....
  • + 1
 @barnz0rz: Uh, there is a long list of products with a lifetime unlimited warranty, that's just part of marketing tbh. Eddie Bauer, for example, has an unconditional lifetime warranty, as does Briggs & Riley, Cutco, a bunch of others.

That's not really the point, however, more that shifters aren't really parts that break very often, and with the money you saved in the unlikely event of your derailleur 'breaking', you could just buy a new one with the money you saved.
  • + 1
 @flunkymonkey: I was talking about bike products specifically.... But go on.
  • + 2
 I welcome a 3rd entry into the conventional mtb drivetrain world. If they can get spec'd on a few oem bikes maybe that will give box the time and recourses to further develop their drivetrain and compete with SRAM and Shimano. I'd like to see them further develop 11speed drivetrains. I'm in the prowesses of converting the family's fleet of bikes (except for the kids bikes) to all 1x11. The new XTR looks amazing, but 12 speeds seems excessive. When does it stop?

I'll probably have to eat crow after the 12 speed XT/SLX comes out, is amazing and I switch to it on my mtb and then think about switching all the bikes to it ....ugh
  • + 2
 I've been running a box two drivetrain on my bike for a few months now, since my sram x01/x1 drivetrain shit the bed. So far the shifting has been flawless on a sram cassette on par with what the x01 derailer felt like it was when it was new. The clutch completely blows away the competition, my bike is dead slient on rough trails. Another plus is that you can't go for a ride without someone noticing it. Despite all the negative opinions on this just being a Shimano clone, I am extremely impressed with it's performance, especially considering it's a fraction of the price of the sram drive train it replaced.
  • + 1
 I got the box drivetrain shortly before leaving for the Smoke and Fire 400 and it was bomber. The cables were cramped, bent and rubbed by my bikepacking bags, my derailleur hanger wasn't perfectly straight after a few hours and the derailleur was in contact with trees, roots, rocks and body parts, but my drivetrain is one thing I never had to worry about. It's remarkably difficult to come in to this particular market and there are multiple variables to consider. Having a working, viable product is the first step and box has it.
  • + 5
 Competition is good for consumers. Not sure why people are complaining
  • + 1
 "Box designed the matching 11-speed cassette to be compatible with the very universal Shimano HG freehub standard, which limits it to an 11-tooth cog on the small end. Keeping the costs to a minimum, the team opted not to machine the cassette cogs from a single piece of steel like SRAM does with their XX1 cassettes."

I don't think they designed anything, these are just Sunrace MX8 cassettes. (Which retail WELL below the prices here)

The chains I guess are KMC-made.

Also Sunrace has a 11-speed groupset, not sure if this is just a rebadge of that.

As I understand it, these use Shimano's 11-speed MTB pull ratio, so it's an easy switch back.
  • + 4
 Heheh...I see Sunrace cassette. I'll go for bigger pulleys than those. Maybe a 12/12 or 12/14.
  • + 1
 Sun Race makes shifters , derailleurs and cassette s You have have a brand new one by wide range 8 speed drivetrain if you want. But the SunRace derailleur is no where near as advanced as the Box derailleur. I'm running a wide range SunRace 8 speed cassette with a non clutch Saint Derailleur. Another bike I have a wide range 10 speed SunRace cassettes with an XT clutch derailleur. Both systems work great. I'm glad to see some competition. First Box must prove reliability. Then they can innovate new ideas. Like a three stage clutch.
  • + 1
 I've only installed around 30 drive trains in my life, but after #4-5, I never glanced at the instruction booklets again.
Now, I'm so old, that I've forgotten enough that I go back to the book for a thing or two.
Life really is a circle.
  • + 1
 If it is the same as the sun race ,it has a very useful range ,that 40 is almost the perfect gear with a 34 ring for climbing that no so supper climbs ,but that 11 tooth cog under pressure it just skips ,what the hell is that ,c’on sunrace or box get it fix ,and Shimano do yours with that spacing gears ,cause that thing of jumping 9 from 37 is a no go it just needs a one in the middle
  • + 3
 All of the Eastern States Cup Transition bikes have run Box Components drivetrains for the past few years with great success and zero issues. We run their bars and stems too.
  • + 1
 I have a Box One drive train on both of my bikes. I actually prefer the Box shifter to Shimano/Sram and wanted to stick with more small-brand components. Shifting is as good as top of the line from the S brands and customer service has been great. Had some issues with the rear derailleur after it took a hit in a fall, and they replaced the derailleur under warranty. I did try to Box two shifter to save some money on my hardtail build, and I just didn't like it as much as the One. I retired the Two shifter to spare parts and have a full One setup instead.
  • + 1
 Toby really missed the boat not producing a gear Box considering the company's name is Box. On the one hand this is a who cares its just another derailleur system that doesn't even offer the wireless opportunity to loose the cables. On the other hand shimano really needs another company whittling away at their OEM market share to force them to be more agile and concerned about what their customers want.
  • + 1
 I've been riding with the Box drivetrain after switching from XO and love the feel and response that I'm getting. It's there when you need it. Going uphills and downshifting with ease. I can't say no more other than I've been impressed!!! Good Job Box...loving it!!!
  • + 1
 Give me a 10-45T 10 speed cassette, with 12 speed cog spacing and an overall width as narrow as possible, and you would rule the world...... All the range anyone would need in a cassette that doesn't force ridiculous chain lines..... Think out of the BOX guys!
  • + 2
 I'm intrigued as to the XC / Trail spec cassette naming.

I assume if your in the 50t on the trail spec cassette, you're riding up a f**k off big hill?

That's pretty XC to me?!?
  • + 4
 totally depends on what your front chain ring is.
  • + 3
 I think you’ll find that they both ride up the same hills but the XC people should be doing it faster and then the Trail riders should be faster on the descent.

So a lower minimum speed and faster top speed equal more range required for Trail when compared directly to XC.
  • + 1
 @Tim2: They both have the same bottom end?! So not sure how descending is a factor.

Unless you are suggesting that the trail bikes are descending in the 46t cog?!? In which case, you're doing something very wrong.

If however, you are suggesting that XC bikes are (generally) lighter, thus require less effort (46t rather than 50t), then I see your point.
  • + 1
 @jlawie: Descending faster mean you will want a higher gear. Which if you are comparing these two cassettes means you need a bigger chainring, which then means you will really need that 50t rather than the 46t on the cassette.

That's why descending is relevant because it effects the gear range that you will want to use. But yes, if you already have a chainring and can't justify buying a new one it won't matter.
  • + 1
 I had a spectacular failure of the previous Box One derailleur, with no impact, and after a relatively short time. I wasn't alone in this either, most of the folks I saw running the Box One derailleur had similar failures. I really want to like Box, I like having another player in the drivetrain market, but would need some reassurance they've fixed the old problem. What has Box done to improve the Box Two derailleur durability over the Box One, and how long have you been riding this drive train for?
  • + 1
 I don't know if it's me, but as I got older, I used gears less, and less. When I was a child I used them TONS, then eventually I only used them if I couldn't climb a hill in the only gear I ever used. Probably just getting old, and lazy to shift? That's part of the reason why the whole 11 speed/12 speed debate is so funny to me, I'm like, "how about 2 or 3 speed?"
  • + 2
 You’ll get a little older, and then your knees will literally start squealing at you, asking for more gears.
  • + 1
 How arrogant to presume it’s easy to figure out how to install it and not bother with instructions.
Great way to connect with your potential market, Box!

Best results they are after is an OEM deal with Jamis.

Oh and RC what the hell is a ‘changer’ thought I was on Bike Radar for a sec.
  • + 4
 Come on. Anyone ordering this has installed several other drivetrains in their time and isn't likely to have referred to the instructions for years.
  • - 3
 @gkeele: You and I (and most of PB audience) get that but it’s just the principle.
  • + 5
 Do you really not know how to install a drivetrain? Are you the guy flipping through that tiny shimano booklet in your garage trying to figure out what b tension means?
  • + 1
 @kelownakona: I'll agree with you on that, it is a little unprofessional.
  • + 6
 We do not ship the products with instructions because we realized last year that as a new company we are having to constantly update them. We didn’t want to keep throwing away paper so decided to have them on our website along with a video. We are now working on simplifying our instructions as we found them to be too complicated. We welcome any feedback here too.
  • + 4
 NO ONE puts their "Dick" in the drivetrain like Richard Cunningham. Great review. 10 out of 10
  • + 1
 I broke 2 of these derailleurs before I went back to an xt. The cassette and shifte worked like a charm. To box’s credit they warrentied both but it was pretty incovienent to break one at the clutch point instead of the hanger snapping when I was in whistler. Hope they’ve got that issue solved. I know it was a common theme. Otherwise great drive train
  • + 1
 I rode the 11-46t box two cassette this past season to improve the 37-46t jump of the shimano cassette. They shift nice but are not tough at all. It lasted about 2 maybe 3 rides before the 32t cog bent outwards not from any impact or fall. It is 100% a rebranded sunrace cassette.
  • + 1
 I know the Box cassette is just a rebranded SunRace. I have bent many cogs during a season, Box warranty was very good at replacing them promptly. The shifting performance is worse than a shimano cassette mated with an XTR but the gear spacing is much nicer.

Does anyone know if the derraileur/shifter is just rebranded from an overseas manufacturer or does box do all the R&D themselves?
  • + 3
 Box needs to make a fork so you can be like..."what kinda fork you ride? " "Its a Box fork" "oh Fox" "no...Box" yeah...Fox" "no... BOOOOOOOOXXXXXX!!"
  • + 1
 don't forget the boxxer
  • + 1
 They already make rigid BMX forks...
  • + 2
 The Box Foxxer xc fork. I want to see that argument.
  • + 1
 I put box two groupset on my 2018 niner rlt 9 shifter/derailleur/cassette. I had issues with the shifter, the cable kept jumping or sliding off the internal plastic orange block. Happened twice, once on the bike shop & once on my maiden voyage on the new custom build after like a dozen shifts. It’s flat so it doesn’t have a channel or groove to ride in. I upgraded to box one shifter, I haven’t ridden it since so I have no clue if it’s better or worse. I haven’t filed a warranty claim or contacted Box Components on what they’re willing to do.
  • + 1
 Can't wait to see if they make an mtb specific crankset. They already make nice bmx cranks, burly, nice looking and available in many shorter lengths, which is important to me, but I dont think they will fit an mtb, would love to be wrong about that though.
  • + 1
 I've been running the Sunrace cassette for a while with no issues whatsoever, they definitely made a smart move there. I also have the Box branded cassette on another bike, and it's identical with similar performance. I'd be willing to give their derailleur and shifter a try if I find myself needing to replace what I'm running.
  • + 4
 David Vs Goliath + Godzilla
  • + 4
 We’ll see Seth showing this off soon.
  • + 2
 Better go back in the playlists, I want to say this was a murder machine piece...
  • - 5
flag ljfran2383 (Nov 2, 2018 at 7:21) (Below Threshold)
 his existence annoys me
  • + 1
 Murder machine was all boxone? @VwHarman:
  • + 1
 @NorthwestOrDeath: I thought he went box two...box two on something though...
  • + 1
 @VwHarman: I'll have to revisit the playlists then!
  • + 1
 Sounds good, nice to see some competition for the big 2. Hoping it is just my eyes but the picture of the cassette makes the chain (and cassette teeth) look slightly rusty...is it just my poor eyesight?
  • + 2
 When I bend my NX derailleur more than I already have, I am replacing it with a Box setup. Just because.
  • + 1
 Ah plastic twist shifters... IMO, 9 speed X0 with twist shifters is still the best drivetrain ever. The Box stuff does look pretty good, though.
  • + 1
 What are the differences between the box and sunrace cassette? I see the spider for the pie plate having a different design, but anything else?
  • + 1
 If you are going to make a contender emulate SRAM not shimano. Shimano has fallen behind.
  • + 2
 Does it come in red? I’d buy a red one to match my socks.
  • + 2
 Please call the B tension screw the " Box gap screw"
  • + 2
 someone forgot sunrace...
  • + 2
 I thought the price was going to be horrendous...but its not
  • + 2
 Lifetime warranty... enough said
  • + 1
 Shimano SLX is the best performance and price value! You want to complete with that?
  • + 1
 Nah, XT shifters are considerably better in performance, and Deore derailleurs are better value than SLX (if you get the 10-speed there's not going ot be a difference between SLX & Deore), and XT derailleurs have the better jockey wheels as well. Cassettes & chains, just get the cheapest one....
  • + 1
 @flunkymonkey: I replaced a 7000 SLX (broken bracket) with an 8000 XT--I could feel a slight difference, but wasn't sure which one felt "better." You think the 8000 is better? How so?
  • + 1
 “every command” even pedalling backwards without the chain deciding which cog it would rather be on?
  • + 0
 www.microshift.com/en/new-xcd

There's also this- no idea if it's any good though.
  • + 0
 is that patrol mountain/united indonesia? gonna buy this box soon.
  • - 1
 Why wait more than 6 years after XX1 to release an 11 speed drivetrain?

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