Exclusive: Sam Hill's Secret Weapon

Aug 28, 2014 at 13:15
by Richard Cunningham  
When Schwalbe introduced its tire-inside-a-tire Procore system this year, most people believed that it was developed primarily to prevent pinch flats from scuttling a downhiller's race run. Surely, pinch-flat protection was one of the motivations for Procore, but the inception of the design actually came about as a means to solve a far more important problem - one that bicycle suspension designers have been wrestling with for fifteen years. Procore tire technology was the brainchild of two German think tanks: the engineers at Schwalbe, and the people at Syntace. The information about this synergistic relationship was revealed at the Dornier Aviation Museum across the Zeppelin port from the Eurobike Expo in Friedrichshafen, where Schwalbe officially launched its 2015 range.

creative line choice and amazing cornering speed put Sam Hill back on top today. We look forward to what he can do in Norway in a few weeks time.

Sam Hill lights the Maribel World Cup DH course on fire. Hill was third fastest in the top splits, and easily made up the time on the blazing fast flat and off-camber corners in the lower section of the course for the win. Did he have a hidden advantage?



At the museum, I had the opportunity to speak with Syntace founder Jo Klieber, one of the industry's most progressive and creative thinkers, and the man who began the development process which ultimately led to the Procore system. Kleiber said that he was experimenting with the rolling efficiency of the three wheel diameters versus the effectiveness of large-volume tires. Klieber rented an expensive high-speed camera so he could watch how the tires deflected and the suspension reacted to bumps of various shapes and sizes in slow motion. Klieber said that while viewing the slo-mo recordings, he was surprised to discover that the tires would deflect almost to the rim - sometimes actually contacting the rim flanges – before the rear suspension or fork would begin to move.

Using telemetry to track the way that the tire and suspension interacted after an impact revealed that the spring rate of the tire was very linear and that it ramped up too gradually to overcome the suspension's static friction. When the suspension did begin to move, the hand-off between the spring rate of the tire and that of the suspension created a distinct spike in the compression rate at the very moment when the suspension should have been progressing smoothly through its stroke. The result was a lack of compliance for soaking up small to medium-sized bumps. Up until now, suspension tuners have wrestled with compromises to eliminate the spike. The most common solution has been to over-inflate the tire, which stiffens its overall spring rate and thus activates the suspension at an earlier moment - but that fix also reduces traction and small-bump sensitivity.

Schwalbe

Schwalbe's Procore dual-tire system allows DH racers to safely run tubeless without burping air, and to optimize their tire pressures for the race course without risking pinch flats. Procore's less obvious secret, however, is that when the two tires meet, they interact with the suspension to create a seamless compression event.



Klieber reasoned that if he added a second, highly pressurized casing inside the tire, the spring rate of the tire would ramp up faster when the two began to compress in unison and thus would activate the suspension in a more seamless and gradual manner. If successful, the tire-inside-of-a-tire system would allow the rider to use lower pressures and at the same time, force the suspension and tire to react as a single unit to small bumps. Klieber predicted that both actions would dramatically enhance traction, along with the potential benefit of reducing pinch flats. Syntace, however, could not move forward on the project without securing a partner willing to produce the inner tire, which was a non-standard diameter. They contacted their friends at Schwalbe tires, who were excited about the project, but unable to respond with prototypes at that time. Klieber and company would have to wait.

Finally, Syntace engineer Oliver Zuther took matters, literally into his own hands and crafted some tubular tires in his basement that could be glued into the wells of Syntace's rims. Klieber says that testing immediately showed that the hybrid wheels performed as they imagined, and armed with the results, Syntace again approached Schwalbe for assistance to get the concept to market. This time, Schwalbe was already working on a similar concept that was intended to eliminate pinch flats for gravity racers. The two companies decided to join forces and produce one design that could address Klieber's vision of mating the tire's performance with the bike's suspension and Schwalbe's desire to end the dreaded pinch flats that so often sideline gravity racers.

Schwalbe Procore graphic. 2014

The beads of the Procore system's internal high-pressure treadless casing force-seal the beads of the main tire against the rim flanges. In the case of a puncture, the tire cannot leave the rim and remains partially supported by the high-pressure inner casing. As a result, a competitor can finish his ot her race run and possibly salvage points from what would have normally been a writeoff performance. That story has taken place at least once this year.



In the end, Procore delivered more than expected. Schwalbe's insistence that the inner tire be a clincher type instead of a tubuler had the effect of pinning the beads of the tubeless outer tire to the rim's flanges, so if the main tire flatted, it would remain on the rim and still be rideable for the entire race run. Pinch flats were almost completely eliminated, and the tires could be run at 1.5 bar (22psi) with complete confidence. Schwalbe's sponsored riders began competing on the system at World Cups, midway through the 2014 season with excellent results. Reportedly, one of the most prominent users is Mister Samuel Hill. Schwalbe and Syntace say that the additional sensitivity afforded by the ability to run lower tire pressures, and the enhanced sidewall stability created by the inner tire being able to support the tire casing above the rim flanges give the rider a huge cornering advantage.

While it would be a stretch to claim that Schwalbe's Procore tire system is largely responsible for Hill's recent domination of the World Cup DH, there can be no doubt that the Australian has owned every off-camber section and slippery corner in the second half of the 2014 season. Hill always keeps his cards close to his chest, but I suspect that the world's fastest man on flats has a secret weapon. It could be a can of old fashioned Whoop-Ass, or it could be Schwalbe's Procore tire system.

Author Info:
RichardCunningham avatar

Member since Mar 23, 2011
974 articles

219 Comments
  • 179 1
 One of the few recent innovations that I am genuinely excited about. Can't wait to actually try this out, let's hope they price it reasonably.
  • 53 2
 200$ for a kit or something like that.
I also can't wait to try it out! But maybe with a ghetto thing with a road tire and stuff.
  • 9 5
 I think I remember reading some where that you could do a ghetto version of this. You use a road tube as the core. And drill a seperate hole, which you use as if you were running tubeless.
  • 4 6
 Would you have to bend the road tube around the normal one though? I don't quite get it haha
  • 8 1
 you don't use "normal" tube, you need a mountain bike tubeless tire (or sealant) and a road tire.
  • 11 1
 By tubes you actually mean tubular tires, right?
  • 6 3
 How can i buy? Call me i have my card ready! No joke.
  • 29 4
 A road tube would never work as it has to be 55-85 psi to actually hold the bead on and serve as a pillow during a sharp edge hard hit. The tube would be the same size as the tire internally before it even reached 15 psi.
  • 2 0
 ah i SEEEEEEe that makes sense
  • 10 0
 Agreed. If tubular tires existed in 559mm ISO, it would be a potential solution immitating the concept of the procore.
  • 3 12
flag Oscarmonk (Aug 28, 2014 at 15:07) (Below Threshold)
 use road tubs
  • 7 14
flag scott-townes (Aug 28, 2014 at 15:24) (Below Threshold)
 judgerider- pissing on parades since an hour ago... god damn it. Someone better still try it with a road tire and film it of course.
  • 3 6
 i am running schwalbes, and i am certainly not the fastest guy in Meribèl ...
  • 2 0
 Judgerider nailed it.
  • 7 6
 why not just save up and get the kit instead of red necking it and then having a bad experience with it. Don't get me wrong some things you can red neck but tires aren't one of them.
  • 8 0
 but if the wheel was a 29er? then a road tubular works, no?
  • 12 0
 I love anything ghetto.
  • 9 0
 @nason red necking it always leads to interesting if not successful results. and the process is as fun as the result.
  • 8 2
 everyone know tire inside a tire is by xzibit.
  • 2 1
 Buying the kit is only marginally more expensive than buying road tubs, if it's $200. If you're riding a 29er why not just go for the lighter solution and get tubulars? I'm confident Dugast would be far more supple than this.
  • 2 0
 this has been done before but this looks like its well refined and will take off. Michelin "le system" was used years ago and it had the same idea. Yes you can run a ghetto style of this but its not exactly the same and it a bit of a pain to get sorted but its do able and peopel get good results.
  • 5 0
 For 26in wheels, it is possible to use a Continental Sprinter tubular tire (ERTRO: 559-22) as a ghetto procore. However this is not a clincher tire, so I don't know whether it stays locked on the rim flanges or not.

From a german forum:
fthumb1.mtb-news.de/cache/950/auto/1/1/fstatic1.mtb-news.de/f3/16/1652/1652209-p0pc4co556ka-rrsr2-large.jpg
fthumb1.mtb-news.de/cache/950/auto/1/1/fstatic0.mtb-news.de/f3/16/1652/1652208-tdsfmr1ppr5b-rrsr1-large.jpg
  • 1 0
 I look forward to some manufacturer releasing a semi-ghetto version of this - like a dual chamber inner tube or something so I don't have to go tubeless again. Maybe those people who do the sludge tubes would be keen.
  • 1 3
 Good luck red-necking this...how do you guys plan on filling each chamber to the pressure you want, the inner is 55-85psi, the outer is 10-20psi? Good luck with that.
  • 4 0
 Just drill another hole a put a 2nd valve, that will enflate the main tire, while the first valve is from the tubular tire itself. Probably you only need to inflate the main tire first and then the tubular (because if the tubular is already with 80psi, the air from the 2nd valve will have trouble to pass around the tubular). Just an ideia, it migth do the trick.
  • 3 0
 Alternative italian system with a inner tubular tire

vimeo.com/74188832
  • 1 0
 @andrextr touché, but I'd still rather just buy the purpose built system...
  • 1 0
 andrextr : for a 26", I suppose it's a 650c tubular, right? I see on their website that they have a 26 x 1" sprinter tubular. it has 559 ERTRO ? Is it not 571?
  • 2 0
 Alternatively (and I think its the best option) you can use a clincher road tire with an air tube (such as Schwalbe Insider 23-559, which is very similar to the original Procore and weights 210grams and costs 15 euro). Just drill a 2nd hole in the rim to put an air valve, a open a hole in the Insider tire. The first valve is from the air tube and will be inflated to ~6bar and the second valve will fill the insider tire which has an hole and allows the air to pass and inflate the main tire (1-2 bar). I think its the best option. The main difference from the original Procore is the need to put a 2nd air valve (another small disadvantage with this ghetto system is that when you want to adjust the main tire pressure, you may need to temporarily deflate a bit the core first).
  • 1 0
 Very interesting. But tire 210g + tube xx grams = maybe too much weight? How much does a typical 26 x 1 weight? gotta check on that....
  • 3 0
 Check this tutorial:
forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/ghetto-home-made-procore-dual-chamber-diy-928600-post11421192.html#post11421192

You may end up with about 300g (100g more than the original). Comparing to a Maxxis heavy duty DH tube (490g) is better, Schwalbe durano 28-559 (260g) is also another good and cheap possibility (it has more volume). A road tube weigths about 60-100g
  • 1 0
 THanks a lot! Going to try this very soon and keep you posted
  • 105 1
 No more flats for the fastest man on flats
  • 52 1
 ... so that he can ride flat out
  • 34 2
 ...and huck to flat?
  • 42 2
 He is flattered.
  • 21 11
 Hes buying a flat from the money he wins without having one...
  • 20 3
 Get him a new beer. ^^^ His is flat.
  • 4 11
flag cikudh (Aug 28, 2014 at 16:34) (Below Threshold)
 And this article is saying, Sam will gonna take home the rainbow stripes in a few weeks time !!!
  • 6 1
 Sam's riding is flat out nuts!
  • 10 0
 Jokes are falling a bit flat.
  • 17 1
 Yo momma so flat...
  • 7 0
 How flat is she?
  • 14 0
 Flatter than a Kansas plains DH race
  • 14 1
 I thought Sam Hill was already pretty decent at cornering.. And why isn't the top 10 filled with Procore users?

This definitely sounds (!) interesting but to say Hill won because of the system is a bit over the top.
  • 6 0
 Does Prokop use Procore?
  • 5 1
 Need Protour opinions.
  • 9 0
 I'm flat out of them.
  • 67 4
 @richardcunningham looks for a secret weapon because Sam is undermining his theory on death of flat pedals in DH racing hahaha
  • 38 0
 I'm pretty sure that Sam's secret weapon is knowing how to throw his inside leg out better than everybody else to get better traction, like he's doing in the picture. & the massive balls to do so at mach turkey.
  • 26 1
 No secret weapons needed for Hill, just a steep, good n' proper DH course.
  • 8 22
flag Think0075 (Aug 28, 2014 at 15:14) (Below Threshold)
 Or maybe it's his 26" wheels
  • 16 1
 he's running 27.5 mate ,just saying
  • 9 3
 flat pedals win medals
  • 6 0
 clip pedals also win medals
  • 25 1
 pedals win medals
  • 10 1
 Training, dedication and a bike you're comfortable on win medals.
  • 33 0
 yeah but that doesn't rhyme
  • 8 0
 give him some time
  • 5 0
 In order for him to chime a rhyme you've got to give him a dime? Or maybe he'd prefer a lime this time.
  • 5 0
 I failed Frown I apologize to my family
  • 1 1
 Please let him go back to MBA, harping on about 'black diamond riding' (because 'freeriding' implies riding footpaths in the minds of stubborn pedestrians).
  • 29 3
 Sam Hill was born with cornering advantage, he doesn't need no fancy system for that!! Although it seems a pretty good idea, I don't think it played a major role in Sam's recent wins, Hill had cornering dialed even before cornering existed...
  • 2 1
 Aussies were bread for DH. Their balls go way up in their back (who loved Jimmy the Greek?)
  • 2 0
 At a minimum it does give him a little comfort and confidence knowing that he is well protected from flats and doesn't have to worry about certain hits that could give him one.
  • 1 0
 I definitely noticed at mt st anne and meribel that his setup looked very dialed. Whether its good suspension, procore or both, his bike looked planted this season. Sam is still the best technical ripper though, so much style while going faster than anyone
  • 20 1
 Think it's absolutely shit that they're claiming Hill couldn't have posted that run without Schwalbes system. Hill is known for his inside and creative line choices and blistering flat cornering speed. Think flat tyres is simply a case of luck in many instances..
  • 16 24
flag RichardCunningham (Aug 28, 2014 at 16:00) (Below Threshold)
 Perhaps, but.... Same Sam, same bike...same competition... all new can of Whooop Ass. Just sayin'
  • 5 0
 Isn't Bryceland on Maxxis or Conti? If it was a consistent huge advantage Sam Hill would be winning the overall, Sam Hill's riding won that race not the tire system.
  • 9 4
 Pretty sure if you run proper downhill spec tyres with dh tubes and dh-wide rims its near impossible to flat, the problem arises when running lightweight 'race spec' tubes and rims, something procore invalidates through its extra weight anyway... Richard Cunningham do you even ride bro? Have you ever broken a bone or few? It can take a couple of years or more to regain full confidence afterwards and dh is a game of self confidence. Sam had a lot of injuries because he rode over the limit, now he's backed off and learned to ride consistently and win, it took a couple of years, but marketing procore as the reason is just plain disrespectful of Lord Sam Hill
  • 6 0
 He didn't say that Sam Hill only won because he was running the procore system he said it gave him an advantage. Give me the procore I STILL won't win a worldcup! As for "race spec" vs procore the difference in weight isn't 200g more (per wheel) but much much less given that you no longer need to run a DH casing tire (i.e. you can run singleply casing) not to mention the massive traction advantage of running low pressure.
  • 2 0
 A more supple casing might do wonders, I'm curious how a Dugast cotton casing (if they made clinchers and non-outdated tread patterns) would feel on a Minion.
  • 4 2
 The advantage is nominal. It only presents an advantage with regards to flatting (in which case you STILL get a flat, but it's something you can ride out on), and the prevention of burping. The last one is the only actual advantage for a racer on a potentially winning run (because if the first 'advantage' is required, you already lost), as DH'er WILL burp standard tubeless tires, evident by Gwin and the dozens of others who have done so in the past few years of tubeless in DH (and why most pros avoided tubeless). Sam is likely still running reasonable pressures, to avoid deflection and roll over at the speeds he's traveling at. Presumably in the mid 20s rear, low 20s front. Only slow poke trail riders are advocating psi in the teens, because once you start hauling ass, you need to increase pressures to avoid excessive squirming and destroying the set up.

Sam won because he's Sam, and back to shape. He's unequivocally one of the top 5 greatest DH'ers in the sport because of his skill.

Still waiting for tubular DH tires with a bead lock style rims......... hehe
  • 3 0
 @atrokz alot of assumptions there... I'm curious about this system. Can't wait to try it.
  • 2 3
 Please list one assumption, other than the tire pressure (which is more of an educated guess). The rest are based on evidence and actual information from Schwalbe, which is available to you if you chose to read more than PB comments. The words from them were along the lines of 'it will help you finish your race'.

Also, it's 'a lot'. Is alot some sort of an animal?
  • 1 1
 @atrokz assumptions:
1 - advantage is nominal : seeing as you haven't tested it I find this strange. Now if we are to believe the first reviews of the system and what schwalbe has said having more traction is NOT nominal it is a big deal independently if you are a racer or not
2 - Sam is still running reasonable pressures - I don't know what tire pressure he is currently using and tire deflection is irrelevant if it won't roll off and if it gives you more traction
3 - because once you start hauling ass, you need to increase pressures to avoid excessive squirming and destroying the set up - true with a standard setup but not necessarily true with this system seeing as the tire compression isn't linear.
  • 2 1
 Hill's run was top-notch stuff--wicked speed, creative lines and technical prowess. To claim it was his tire "system" is kinda insulting, in my most, most 'umble opinion.
  • 1 1
 @sintra

1: This is based on shawalbes press release, and interviews. They clearly state the 'advantage' is being able to perform a run, and it's help with preventing burping, which I listed as the real 'advantage'. There is no 'traction' advantage to be had from an inner bladder. The advantage is less flats at a desired low psi that downhill racers have run for over a *decade* (low to high 20s, depending on rider).

2: As per interview, and several other interviews, he's running mid 20s. that's reasonable, and not in the teens like some would have you believe. Tire deflection is very relevant, but you'd need to read a few books to understand that.

3: as above, it's still possible to flat, and with increase in speeds comes increase in forces applied.

Again, zero assumptions. All based on information from interviews, my education and understanding of forces and basic physics, and the interwebs.

If you want to play this game, might want to brush up on your 'science' so you can actually bring something to the table, because as it stands all my information is correct and you aren't stating anything other than antagonizing with zero credibility.

@pancakeflathead that was the impression I got from it. Totally insulting.
  • 1 0
 The bladder allows you to run lower tire pressures without lower risk of flatting and thus you achieve more traction. As a former trials rider I can confirm without a doubt that. I would like to read/hear those recent interviews in which he states that he is using psi in the 20s with this new system, please send them to me. I never said flatting isn't still possible just that it becomes much less likely and this is very important whether in a race or not. I still find it rather arrogant that having NOT tested it you are already discrediting this system. I personally try and test things out before claiming otherwise. This is how I came to the conclusion that wider rims were better and that it is possible to run psi in the 10s without flatting.
  • 2 1
 Again, you were a trials rider. A completely different application with completely different psi requirements. Come on now. This weekend watch to see if any of the riders are slowly bippidy boppidy hippidy hopping down the course...

In this article alone (let alone other interviews) "Pinch flats were almost completely eliminated, and the tires could be run at 1.5 bar (22psi) with complete confidence"

Guys rarely went that low before for risk of flatting. In the 10s is a joke. This isnt' trials riding. You think rock crawling trucks run the same psi settings as pre runners or Dakar racing trucks?

Also, I didn't 'discredit' shit. Stop making stuff up. It's clear I stated the advantages and stated that they did little, if anything' to help Sam win, which was clearly mentioned in the article, and which others took issue with as well. As someone who's been racing since 2001 I had my fair share of things to experiment with lol
  • 2 0
 I run 18psi up front and 20psi in the rear on 2.35 tires or 15psi and 16 psi if I run wider tires. And that is for DH not trials (I'd go lower for trials). I pinchflat once a year tops. Sure I don't ride as fast nor as hard as Mr. Hill but I've bee doing whole seasons in alpes since 2010 so I'm not exactly riding in easy terrain nor occasionally. Running pressure in the 10s isn't a joke it's just been hard to do until now. I'm going to test this new system and then make my mind up, just like I did with wide rims and the new schwalbe supergravity casing.
  • 1 1
 You run less PSI than the pro women ;-)

I think it's a factor of speed, riding style, rim/tire set up. I don't think we jumped to any assumptions, but rather jumped on the silly assumption that Hill had an 'advantage' by using these.
  • 1 0
 I get that alot haha! I agree with that. Hill won out of merit no doubt but I think having this tire setup didn't hold him back either!
  • 15 0
 Hasn't this been used for moto for some time? Unless I'm wrong I think those guys are getting a bit too much credit for "their" genius idea.
  • 31 3
 Arnoodles^^^ Yes, the inner tire concept has been in use for over a decade in enduro and MX, but purely as a means to prevent pinch flats. Procore is the first instance where the two-stage system was developed specifically to adress the tire's relationship with the suspension in its initial travel. Thanks for bring up that important infomation. I was with the boys at MXA magazine when that innovation came up and I too scoffed at the bike industry calling Procore a new invention. After my conversation with Jo Kleiber, however, I realized that Procore was truly an innovative solution to a problem that bicycles do not exactly share with motos.
  • 3 0
 It seems like a great idea, and looks like it would hold the tire very securely as well as another bonus. I'd definitely try it, but yeah, not original. I suppose it's not the first bit of borrowed tech from the moto world.
  • 8 0
 @RC, The ability to run lower tire pressures with tubeliss setups to acheive more traction and "smoother ride" in moto is a well known and marketed benefit of those setups. This is nothing new.
  • 8 0
 @Arnoodles @smgishot13 Thanks for bringing some clarity to this mtb "innovation." I don't know why industry folks refuse to admit the true inspiration for a lot of their designs. Nevermind; I do. They're egotistical jerks.
  • 5 0
 That's not the point, though. It helps, but the idea for bicycle use stems from trying to make the suspension more active early in it's travel. It's very difficult to do this on a bike because of how light everything needs to be. All the seals have to be low friction, and damping is tricky as well because it needs to be sensitive to a relatively low weight. Motocross bikes sag before the rider even gets on, and sensitivity isn't really an issue with so much weight, so that wasn't really the focus for MX. For bikes sensitivity is extremely important, so that was the primary goal in adopting the system. It's not a new idea, but with different goals.
  • 2 0
 True, Jo Klieber rightly states that motos have stiffer tires and much more mass above the suspension to resist upward acceleration, so moto suspension reacts more evenly and smoothly over similar bumps and stiction has less of an adverse effect than it does for a suspended bicycle.
  • 4 2
 But Rich Cunningham, this article stated the use of high speed equipment to notice a problem. I work in hydraulics and our biggest venue is mining at approximately 5000. However, after a tragedy a few yrs. Back we did some testing using real state of the art sensors and can conclude that a system designed for 5000 psi. Will In fact see spikes that measure in the millions but are so fast they never trigger a relief valve, could this also apply to tire flex amplified by high speed cameras?
  • 3 0
 My guess is they realized that the suspension felt more linear and wanted the cred so made this their "initial motivation."
  • 2 4
 I think anyone who compares mountain biking to moto has not actually ridden a moto or worked on one, they are two entirely different entities with nothing in common other than being off road
  • 7 0
 @CTD, I think anyone who thinks they have nothing in common has never ridden either.
  • 2 0
 Ok maybe they have some things in common, they can feel similar to ride in some ways, i am prone to exaggeration, but the majority of comparisons people blurt out make me wonder, especially from a mechanical point of view. But this comparison is bs, tyres are stiffer but impact speeds and preloaded weight on the casing more than easily nullify that point, as for more mass above, the scenario point in question is supposed to happen before force is transferred to the rim and henceforth bike, so vehicle weight is irrelevant. Just sick of people making dumb comparisons with no real thought, mx and dh make appear similar but are miles apart
  • 2 1
 RC, sucked in by the marketing. Yes, a lower pressure tyre will have effect on the initial bump absorption before the suspension is even considered. Yes, a lower pressure on the first point of contact (main tyre cavity) which then stiffens up as you blow through the tyre to the stiffer inner tube (again without considering suspension yet) similar to high/low speed compression on a fork make sense.
These are all just benefits that are inherent to this type of system whether moto or MTB, just marketed from a slightly different angle to make it sound like less of a replica of the well established moto versions.
That being said if it gives good grip, less tyre rolling/burping and better traction it'll be all good. Except it will be an absolute bastard to fit.
  • 2 0
 Excuse me for being naive, but... Isn't all that latest "get a wider rim bit" about making the tyre more stable, to get a more balanced ride? Thanks to that, tyre deflects less in corners. I can report the benefits from my own experience of riding rims with 17mm and 27mm internal width. In my humble, pathetic attempts to ride berms in Hafjell bike park I have also found that higher pressure (from 1.7 bar 2ply to 2 bar) allows for a more predictable ride? Now... Given that poor experience of mine... Isn't chopping the pressure by almost half throwing all that out of the window, when main tread of the tyre will just freely slide under the inner blue tube?

All I know is that Syntace told me to run lower pressures on wide rims and after first two descents I took it back up as I had it on barrow ones, to feel the benefit. I also know that I am not the only one feeling the same about this. I smell awesome flat protection, but not much more unless they totaly redesign tread patterns.
  • 13 2
 From the diagram it looks like it might be more burp-resistant too..?

Edit: ignore me, it literally says that on the diagram. I am an idiot.
  • 9 0
 How can Sam Hill use pro core when he's using deemax rims with an internal width of 21mm, and pro core is designed for rims at least 23mm wide?
  • 2 0
 That was what I was thinking! Is he running a special wider rim? Maybe, seeing as there are currentlly no 27.5 deemax ultimates on the market.
  • 2 0
 I'm sure you could squeeze it in a 21mm rim
  • 7 0
 "Syntace again approached Schwalbe for assistance to get the concept to market. This time, Schwalbe was already working on a similar concept".

Does anyone else read that as

Schwalbe - "oh yeah that idea of yours we said we couldn't do, we're working on our own version now"
Syntace - "er right dude um LAWSUIT?"
Schwalbe - "hmm good point let's see your design again..."?
  • 2 0
 That's what struck me the most about this article.

"sorry we can't help you right now"
"oh look, we've been working on the same thing, what were the odds!"
  • 1 2
 I doubt that is how the deal went down.^^^ I have know the folks at both companies for a long time and can vouch for their fairness and transparency. Huge respect for both Schwalbe and Syntace.
  • 2 0
 I'm not implying anything, just saying that's how it sounded. I figured the story was super simplified and a lot more things happened in reality.
  • 2 0
 Aye, not saying it's likely, just read that way lol :-)
  • 6 0
 Does anyone remember "snake charmers" from back in the late 90's?? I know John Tomac does... Maybe I'm wrong and Im sorry for not being able to find any information about them but as far as I can remember they were ment and performed in the exact same way. I guess the problem back then was that slow motion camera's were not around to prove that they were working. They were not exactly the same the Snake Charmers was made of a light wait rubber so we're most likely heavier. However anyway you cut the pizza this idea is not new. Just advertised better and revamped with new technology. Thanks all the same to the creators old and new, I used them then and I'll use these ones too. Rubber side down
  • 1 0
 Also T.H.E had a rim out a few years back with a system very similar to this.....

The eliminator rim I think??
  • 1 0
 They did but it was designed to prevent pinch flats/ make tires extremely hard to put on/ way like 800g
It had potential though..
  • 8 0
 SAM HILL!!!!!!
  • 3 1
 Indeed!
  • 3 0
 Why all this talk of avoiding pinch flats? Don't tubeless tyres already solve that problem? Aren't Sam Hills Mavic wheels UST not tubeless ready? How do you inflate this thing exactly? Do you inflate the inner first or would that inhibit the inflation of the outer? Do you add sealant through the valve core or before the tyre is mounted. How much does it weigh?
  • 2 0
 Running low pressure for downhill results in folded rim sidewalls and then tubeless blowout. This systems allows the pressure to be that low without the chance of flatting from a destroyed the rim or pinch flatting the actual tire sidewall.
  • 3 0
 What he said.
  • 2 0
 Cheers.
  • 1 0
 Having a beaded rim also helps stop the tyre from pulling up and burping, something Mavic are aware of and new skool companies don't seem to realise. Procore will require sealant depending on tyre choice, only UST cert tyres don't require sealant but weigh 200-300g more than standard tyres, the system is supposed to weigh about as much as a light inner tube on top of that. Also don't forget sealant weighs appx 1g/ml so again, about 200-400g per tyre to seal up a non UST tyre. Weight simply isn't the question
  • 1 0
 So Sam runs Deemax Ultimates right? Well it says on Mavics website that they have an internal width of 21mm just like the Crossmax SX I lust for. So does Sam Run a prototype rim or can the system be made to work with 21mm?
  • 1 0
 Single ply tire + procore system + sealant weighs less than DH tire with XC tube or UST tire with procore system.
  • 1 2
 Single ply tyre + procore system + sealant = running on zero pressure after a small nick puncturing procore which inflates tyre for a while, while it deflates but gets you to the bottom of your race run in a downhill, lets you limp to the next transfer stage in your enduro race but, leaves you stranded on a trail ride with a $200 mess.
  • 1 0
 If you nick the procore (highly unlikely I believe) the excess air will go into the tire thus allowing you to ride home. More likely to nick the thin tire which allows you to ride home with a squish tire if the sealant doesn't seal it.
  • 3 0
 would like to know if there is 2 valves... Seems to be a great idea, but i really want to understand how to install it... BTW, turn a regulara rims into a tubeless one gonna be easier with that double chamber
  • 21 0
 Two valves are no longer necessary - Schwalbe have come up with an innovative valve that allows the inner chamber to be inflated, and then the outer chamber. More details here: www.pinkbike.com/news/schwalbe-canyon-ks-eurobike-2014.html
  • 1 16
flag bigtim FL (Aug 28, 2014 at 13:30) (Below Threshold)
 Yup, 2 valves. Apparently can just drill a second hole in an existing rim you already have.
  • 8 0
 One valve. You just turn it half a turn and it pumps air into the other chamber
  • 1 15
flag ajd327 (Aug 28, 2014 at 13:33) (Below Threshold)
 there is actually a tutorial out there that shows you how to rig it up yourself. And yes, it uses 2 valves.
  • 4 0
 They have a clever single valve that does both chambers now. Cant find where I read about it , possibly in Vitals Eurobike thing
  • 1 0
 THX Mike ! looks great !
  • 3 1
 As Mike Kaz said: the production versions will use one special two-stage Presta valve that can fill both tires independently. Presently. all of the Prototype Procore wheels use two separate valves. The main tire is tubeless, so it has a tubeless Presta stem, the treadless casing uses a Presta valve tube. There is no special bead lock for the inner casing, it floats against the main tire beads on a normal Syntace tubeless ready rim.
  • 1 0
 ajd327 : Any links about that tutorial ?
  • 4 0
 Yep, one Schrader valve and one Presta, just to keep everyone happy!!! Razz
  • 7 0
 quick search found this informative video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqZnqK6RWAQ
  • 1 0
 Out of curiosity, the 2 valves at Meribel:
esmtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/100_samhill.jpg
  • 1 0
 If you're running sealant in the outer chamber, my guess is that the valve core "twisting mechanism" could get gummed up pretty quick.
  • 2 0
 There are wrench flats on the valve, so I'd imagine it will be possible to apply enough force to overcome any resistance from sealant residue.
  • 3 0
 Now we're talking. Compliance is a huge issue when dealing with imperfect surfaces. While tire makers should be designing tires this in mind, it's nice to see this approach as well.
  • 2 0
 nicolas Voullioz had been using somthing like this since 1998. I remember asking him at the World championships in Are' why his rims had two valves... his reply... "for Z more air" ( read in a french accent!)
  • 1 0
 I am wondering how different the Procore and Super Gravity tyre system are. It seems to me that they share the same advantage (pinch flat protection) and disavantage (larger weight). Also, the Super Gravity system has stiff sidewalls, which I think would support the tyre better in corners and maybe improve small to medium-sized bump compliance, like the Procore system.
  • 1 0
 This is truly a welcome innovation on many fronts. This year i switched from Maxxis HR to Schwalbe Hans Damph TL on DT Swiss wheel set. I run a 2012 Chilli and weigh 220 with gear. Ran at a reasonable pressure for traction they kept burping. I now run them near 40 psi just to keep from flatting. Traction and rock compliance are gone. At 30 psi i could fold the HD's over to a point where they would rub the inside of the chain stays at speed, not confidence inspiring. This innovation will certainly help heavier riders use a wider variety of tires at a pressure they get traction with and stay inflated. Very excited to try this!
  • 1 0
 This is not new tech, like others have stated, it's been done before in bikes, and has been common in on fullsize rockcrawling rigs for at least ten years, in both "sold as a package" and "ghetto/homebrew" forms. I think it's a good idea as it will be the end of burping tubeless tires, but I wonder what the weight penalty is.
  • 1 0
 Looks like a pretty good system. Glad they were able to sort out a single valve system for mass production. Much easier than drilling a hole in your rim for a second valve!

Regardless of how tight the beads are held on by the inner tire, how would the outer tire not be squirmy as hell between 10-20psi? Can anyone explain that? @RichardCunningham?

I know that being over 220lbs fully geared up with a pack, I can't really run less than 25psi without feeling my tires moving all over the place underneath me in corners... I shudder to think about 10psi!
  • 1 0
 of curse at 220lbs, it would be a bit more. 10-20 psi as a starting point....
  • 1 0
 It moves less I reckon cause impacts hit the procore. It deflects less cause the procore gives it substance after initial supple deflection.
  • 1 0
 A miracle someone really saw the thing on tyres and suspension a miracle I say well done sr. but that might a problem that even that sistem can't solve ,cause it's really hard to fine tune the tyres with the suspension especially with air shocks and forks ,but it's good to see this things ,cause tires are not getting bether just harder on the flanks"not a good thing" and at the same time getting to stiff to run higher pressures but keep on with that good idea cause it's not easy ,good luck
  • 1 0
 My question that remains that I can't seem to find an answer for is- why not use an outer tubeless tire and an inner tubeless tire only: foregoing the need for a inner tube at all. 2 tires instead of 1 outer tire, an inner casing, and a tube underneath. Could they not use sealant to seal both? I understand the need for the inner casing with the tube to control tube expansion and maintain form. I'm sure there is a reason for what they have done, and I apologize if they answered it. Anyone?
  • 2 0
 You wouldn't be able to keep the air from each chamber seperate using two tubeless tires. At least not very dependably. You could probably make a seal, but the high pressure inner tire would eventually leak into the outer one just from air creep and the violent nature of deforming the tire over rocks and other terrain. The tube inside the inner tire makes it possible to dependably maitain drastically different pressures in each chamber. You could use a Tubular tire as the inner tire to avoid using a tube all together, but would cost more to produce, and would not be as versatile when it came to mounting inside rims of varying widths. The use of a tube allows the inner tire to expand to much greater widths, cheaper to replace that tube than a full tubular tire, and much easier to mount.
  • 2 0
 I'm not a DH rider so am asking from a position of ignorance; at what does low tyre pressure tip from being an advantage due to enhanced grip to being a disadvantage due to the tyre squirming and rolling sideways too much?
  • 1 0
 I think that quite cool concept but we have UST, we have Ghetto Tubeless and we have very efficient inner tubes sealants so to switch to this system, it must be proven without any doubts that's really worth it.

Another thing that occurred to me: you're Schwalbe slave for life with Procore Smile

BTW: I don't think that pressure as low as 1,5 bar make sens in anything other then DH racing.
  • 1 0
 This is not a new idea as such. but getting it to work well enough is, 20 years ago I used to ride down hill using one tyre inside the other, The problem is to be able to fill both air chambers , this new valve is neat idea as running two valves means the valve for outer tyre needs to be pierced through the inner chamber not that easy to do.
Problem with top riders not riding for Schwalbe?
Can other tyre manufacturers find an other solution?
I have an other different idea if other tyre manufacturers are looking in HELLO Maxxis ect. GET THINKING!!!!!!!!!!1 or get in touch !!!!
  • 1 0
 So either Sam Hill was running this new system (with mavic rims?) and the mountain bike media who spend most of their time looking at all the pros wheels and telling us all about them and how big they are managed to miss the fact that they had two valves on them, or, this was in fact not Sam Hills secret to his bicycle riding skills and inside line traction.

That being said I'm sure this technology is great and will be very useful to people in the future.
  • 1 0
 Seems a great idea to me and if it means using thinner tyres on a dh bike is possible then week long alps trips can involve a 20 quid non triple compound rear tyre to get destroyed rather than a 45 quid one Smile
Also means i can steal my dads enduro spec dirty dans and run them safely instead of replacing my own twin wall ones.
That might make me sound like a kid but i'm 32. Whoops
  • 1 0
 How does fitting of all this work? Does the ProCore inner tyre come bonded to the outer tyre or is it self-locating somehow? I'm not sure we have the full picture of how things work yet. While nothing is clear, changing tyres with this set could be demanding.
  • 1 0
 I wonder if Blenki has been using this too! 2 podiums at St Anne and Windham AND the fastest split time in the bottom off camber corner section at Meribel, a fraction faster than Sam Hill...
  • 1 0
 if these are reasonably priced everyone is going to be running them... i dont need new tyres but i want a pair of these now just to see how different they are!?? props to schwalbe.
  • 1 0
 Am I missing something here? Tubeless rims and tires=lighter. 30 psi fr /32 psi rear rarely a problem at 190lbs. And cheaper and easier to switch treads when location or conditions require it.
  • 4 0
 That Sam Hill picture does not look like 1.5bar
  • 3 0
 Why wouldn't you put the valves on opposing sides of the rim for better rotation balance?
  • 1 0
 On alloy rims there is already added weight on the opposite side. The rims are bonded together with an aluminum connector tab. Ideally the 2 valves and the rim's joint would be 120° from each other.
  • 1 0
 I like the idea behind this. One problem I have with it is that you're just adding more un-sprung weight and rotational inertia. Though it may still be worth it by ending the dreaded burps and added small bump compliance.
  • 1 0
 Yeah but you can use a tyre with a thinner sidewall as the tyre is supported on the rim by the Hugh pressure chamber. I don't know what that will do for flex of the tyres during corners, but apparently you can make the systems weight back from the tyre
  • 1 0
 Sure, but Procore won't stop torn sidewalls.
  • 3 0
 Yeah its the new tire system not one of the most talented riders ever just crushing a section of track
  • 2 2
 I'd like to see this product with a 3rd stage. I want at least 2 tires inside of my tires. And an extra set of rims on each side of my main rim. with a back-up bike frame. And is it too much to ask to have a backup rider on hand to hit the steep uphills for me???
  • 1 0
 If my tyres are too soft, they roll when I compress the bike to hit any hipped jumps etc... 25psi seems about as low as I can go and that's with dual ply minions, tubeless on flow exs
  • 1 0
 This seems to be a very important development. It is not clear whether it will sit easily with the other major development in the area - hookless rim design for tubeless inflation of the treaded/outer tyre.
  • 2 1
 Sam Hill isn't the only racer to use the system. Steve Smith and a few others were using it last year as well. Danny Hart has been using it, among others…
  • 1 0
 Now i understand why lowering my tire pressure only smooths out the trail at low speed, and that how at times high pressure seems to have less spiking.
  • 1 0
 I read that it needs an inner rim width of 23mm which rules out my Deemax Ultimates at 21mm. Thats a shame cos it sounds like good system.
  • 1 0
 I thought d.u.'s were 23
  • 1 0
 Hmm. Guess I should start checking websites before putting foot in mouth
  • 1 0
 Hill runs deemax ultimates, I'm sure it will work with them.
  • 1 0
 Agreed this sounds like a great system, It needs to work on wide rims though!
  • 2 0
 Sam Hill won because on his day he is still one of the best downhill riders on the planet. End of story.
  • 2 0
 I see a lot of people getting Light-Bicycles carbon rims with these Schwalbe Procores in the near future, including myself !
  • 1 0
 someone can tell me how the .... the procore can use 55-85 psi? and 10-20 psi? wtf? if i use 25 psi and im feeling that my tired gonna explot
  • 1 1
 This is such a f*cking awesome article. So stoked to see innovation here, finally. And Sam, man, keep on killin' it, we're all behind you and these brilliant companies
  • 2 0
 This is cool but wouldn't it be easier just to make the tires differently?
  • 3 1
 No Pinch Flat Pedals Win Medals
  • 1 1
 I know this is a dumb question and saw the single valve solution but how does the two valve work? how does air move past the inner chamber to fill outer?
  • 1 0
 I'm pretty sure the second valve actually went through the inner tube
  • 1 0
 @Richard Cunningham - it's Jo Klieber, no "Kleiber" Smile
And yes, he's a true bike visionary!
  • 6 2
 HAHA! Syntace's site spelled it both ways. I changed all of the spellings to Kleiber after looking it up there even after I was sure that it was spelled the non German i before e. We have known each other since his hair was dark. Jo is probally laughing. Fixed
  • 1 0
 Sun Ringle made a rim like this with a rubber strip in it in 2005. Old news.
  • 2 0
 pretty funny since I saw him having flat tire in practice !!
  • 1 0
 "This time, Schwalbe was already working on a similar concept" ... Accident
  • 2 0
 I bet Sam Hill didnt even know he was riding this Big Grin
  • 1 0
 The interesting things also is that Sam have use it only for the front wheel.
  • 1 0
 He wasn't the only one on Procore. Definitely the whoop-ass.
  • 1 0
 Yay...bead lockers for bikes...
  • 1 0
 Slime tubes made something similar to this back in the early 2000s.
  • 1 0
 I would say more like balls of steel.
  • 2 0
 Too heavy.
  • 1 0
 Only if Gwin had these at Leogang
  • 1 0
 I thought the secret weapon was the old signature 510's, not his new ones
  • 1 0
 Am I the only guy to lazy to read this
  • 1 0
 This has been around in mx for awhile. Check out tubliss....
  • 1 0
 T.H.E Eliminator rim....... Jus sayin
  • 1 0
 Wrong .. jacy is sams secret weapon !!
  • 1 0
 Hill is fast, on any tire!!
  • 1 0
 when does the #enduro specific model come out?
  • 1 0
 It's like Tireception...brraammm...brrammmm
  • 1 0
 MInd=blown
  • 1 0
 Take my money away!
  • 1 0
 he is born to win!! Smile
  • 1 0
 This. Is. Tubular. Brah.
  • 1 0
 mountain biking is fun
  • 3 3
 This is terrible.
  • 1 4
 OMG....the next gimmick has arrived! Everybody jump on board. How have we been getting along this whole time without this incredible technology Frown
  • 2 5
 Wait, that's still a new thing?
Didn't Stevie had that back in 2012 in Hafjell?
  • 1 0
 yeah i think that was the first we heard about it but now we are receiving more information about it.
  • 1 1
 Oh ok.
Well between "can't possibly get" because it's not available or "can't possibly get" because I don't have the money...
Same thing to me
  • 5 0
 Some riders - Stevie Smith was one of them - use a tubeless tire with sealant, that has a tube installed which is partially inflated as a backup. If the tire burped air or was sliced by a rock, the tube could then suppport the tire for the remainder of the race run. Procore is a different concept altogether.
  • 2 0
 Stupid question time. How difficult is it to seat the two separate beads that it shows in the drawing.
  • 2 0
 You begin with one, then do the other Big Grin
  • 2 0
 Thanks for the concise explanation.
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