This Is Peaty With Ken Block: Last Orders - Episode Two, Exclusive Video

 You'd bend one rather quickly and badly. Downhill track is not a lab though...

 I can't believe how much they actually produce . are there that many people running enve ? I.e. Richer than me ?!?!

 @Ayyggss: 5 year warranty.

 @Chonky13: that many clients need to use...

 @Ayyggss: Yeah, especially roadies...! 10k for a bike with no suspensions, tubes and rim brakes has always let me wondering ^^
Ironically I think their best selling mtb-rim is the M90, because of the Sindycate. Wich is stupid IMO, considering DH is the most rim consuming...

 Carbon can be downcycled actually. They use a process called pyrolysis. You're not gonna make another bike frame from it but it has its applications.

 @TheDeadSailor: You obviously don't know much about pyrolysis...
I worked on the recycling of composite materials and pyrolysis is still a study at this time. Airbus and Veolia are working on it since 10 years and there is still no result.
Furthermore, if they consider this for aviation, we are no where near having this for bike rims.

Great vid btw

 @Eneite: You're right, I dont know much about it apart from a short paper I bs'd for a class on it. So it isn't pyrolysis but carbon fiber is still recycled.

www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/story/second_life

 @TheDeadSailor: really hard to seperate the resins and the result is a very substandard material u wouldn't want to use for anything that req integrity.

 @jrocksdh: Not if you have a really big hammer. Smash it apart and like use fire or something to mold it back together. Its just play dough with some things in it.

 @scott-townes: I up voted you. Just because....

 If anyone has heard of Zenos cars i beleive their subframe/chassis is made from recycled cardboard.

 A secret room process is my kind of process. Random bits in a baggy-------->secret room-------->private jet.

 Yep. I see an epoxy allergy in their future. :/

 Is that Envelope statement sarcasm?

Because if you're being serious, it would make you dumb, but I'll just assume you're naive. All USA hand built products with skilled labor, 2 massive high tech buildings that actually look like they meet ISO 9000 quality standards? A flipping robot that costs as much as the entire supply they had in the warehouse.
Not to mention the cost of the toolings I saw throughout that can cost 6 figures themselves.

That place was genuinely impressive.

 @bizutch: yeah they can afford fancy tools and machines because of how much they charge for "built in the u.s.a" wheelsets.

 @bizutch: You see things through beer goggles?

- Skilled labour? - I am sure some are, but many seem to be people that are just very fast and putting bolts in holes or moving tooling along a production line, hardly skilled labour in the majority.

- IS0 9000? - Like almost every machine-shop or manufacturing plant above the kind of 'owner run' level in the US or Europe, hardly something to be proud of unless you are comparing to China and assuming their quality to be automatically inferior for some ignorant reason.

- Robot? - Hardly worth as much as the entire supply of literally hundreds of wheel and wheelset in the quite substantial warehouse, at least try and be factually correct! A robotic setup that costs a few hundred $ tops is hardly a big investment for a company like this and in reality all it serves to do is reduce the amount of skilled labour required that you think is so important!

Tooling that costs 6 figures? Are you for real? You think a wheel mould costs $100,000?! Do you think a company like Propain and Antidote spend this kind of money on their more compex tooling, one per size for frames (so close to 1mill in tooling alone!) Laughable.

Enve cost $$ because you pay for all of that marketing and filling guys like you up with the cool aid.

 @Racer951: just the robot cell alone is probably over $250k

 @wiscobiker: Do you work in automation to make you so sure that it would be $50k over my estimate of $200k?

If true, It doesnt really remove my point, does it?

 @Racer951: Yes, skilled labor. Not tradesmen, not craftsmen, but skilled laborers. If you want your people to show up on time, actually pay attention to their job, and have the skills necessary to identify a problem, you need to pay them well.

To think that the wheel moulds are cheap, are YOU for real? Antidote and Propain don't produce nearly as many frames as ENVE makes rims, and to your point, they have a different mold for each size, so each mold gets even less use. You can get a cheaper mold made if you're don't need it to last as many cycles. If you need it to last many cycles, like if you're cranking out rims for instance, or hundreds to thousands of frames, $100k isn't too bad for a mold. I'd bet money that Antidote and Propain spend way less per mold than ENVE.

Nothing will probably convince you, but I'm not talking out my ass. My family is in tool and die, and mold making,

 Another smart man whom moved to a free state.

 @Racer951:
Not exactly highly skilled labour but compared to Asia very expensive labour.
For almost any company labour is the biggest cost.
Banks finance all the tooling.
Then you have to sell the product en mass to the masses.
Carbon fiber parts are way over priced because of the marketing hype.

 @doe222: yep! Pretty ridic what they charge... Still going strong on my nox am 29 carbons three years in.

 @Racer951: yep I'll stick to my Nox am three years strong.. Would consider noble as well.. But I'd never pay enve prices!

 To put it in perspective you might want to compare it to the production of aluminium rims. Aluminium extrusion, rolling, cutting, joining, finishing (post weld machining and heat treatment, painting), drilling and pressing the eyelets in. Most of that is an automated process. What are you paying for those? Easily more than for a Deore XT hub. There is just considerably more going on with those carbon rims. The prepregs aren't just stored in the warehouse, they are stored in the fridge. During production, they occupy these expensive molds. After all injection molding molds are expensive as well, but the product only spends very little time in there. I'm not too familiar with prepreg production but I expect you'll to prep these molds with a release agent as well. All that takes expensive manual labor using expensive facilities (molds etc). Then they should protect their workers against both the fibres as well as the resin, especially during the cutting and drilling. Remember that free fibres (or small carbon particles from the cutting) could short circuit their electrical equipment if they don't take proper precautions (computers, robots etc). They've got to dispose of scrap material properly. Cutting round valve/spoke holes in a carbon weave is a much bigger "damage" than cutting them in aluminium, so they've got to be much more careful doing that properly and glueing the eyelets in place.

It seems to me that if you take all this into account and compare it to for instance a Stans rim, the price makes sense. I'm not saying it is a better rim for everyone, but I suppose the asking price is fitting for the time, materials and effort they put in.

 @wiscobiker: it´ a german made Fanuc M710 70 robot, plus plc controller and programming... 80-90K.

 @wiscobiker: that would be a low estmation. I would guess between that and 500$k
I am in the automation industry

 @makripper: unlikely on both.

 @Racer951: What is unlikely? That I have been working in the automation industry for over a decade or that I am constantly dealing with advanced control and automation equipment everyrday including right now at my job? The amount of engineering and design with regards to structure, programming and narrative are insane. Even a basic package is crazy expensive, never mind a next to one off for the bike component manufacturing industry. That would be extremely specific, low quantity and complex.

 @makripper: I don't work in the automation business, but I did my graduation project at a company that sets up robots for filament winding. So we developed the theory, designed the products and wrote software for customers to help them design their own products. We also wrote the software to control the robots. I'm not sure what the prices were exactly but I thought these orange KUKA robots were more like 5000 euros a piece. Of course that's just the robot. You need software and you need to develop and build some equipment to go with it. Cable tensioners etc in our case, Enve needs some different stuff. But the job the robot has there seems relatively simple compared to say what our robots had to do or those welding robots at a car assembly line. It basically positions the rim and spins it through 32 (or how many holes it needs) orientations for the drill to do its trick. If a robot setup would be that expensive, there surely must have been an easier way. Like a worker positions it on a table, lock jaws from the inside clamp and center it and then the whole table goes through its 32 orientations. Shouldn't be that expensive. I attended a speech by Achim Menges (look him up) a year ago who said he likes to use those robots for complex production process because they're available and cheap. Of course just like us, his team does their own programming. So maybe that's where the money goes? But then again the job the robot has there seems relatively simple.

 @makripper: As I say, both unlikely, thank you for the first hand experience Vinay.

 @Racer951: lol please. Typical keyboard warrior.

 @vinay: for filament winding you wouldn't need anything complex and I can understand why that would be so cheap beause its so basic.

Vehicle bulding robots can be very complex or very simple, depending on their function/s and depending on which style of production line is used.
Those are also more cost effective due to engineers/engineering firms carrying over designs from one production line to the next. They still aren't cheap by laymans standards.

Packaged pre-engineered equipment is the cheapest, but still not as cheap as some people who don't know what they are talking about are guessing.

Even if it is a packaged pre-engineered piece of equipment, the intergration and comissioning costs will still be very expensive.

Stepping away from the robotics , alone the programming hardware and software, let alone the programming can easily run into the 100's of thousands alone. A very basic system with say 100 i/o including analog, di and do will run you at about 20 to 30k all in. I just hired a contractor to assist me with 3 hardware upgrades.

 @makripper: im a mfg engineer and my main project is specing out a robotic cell for one of our automation machines. we are looking at close to 80k for our setup, and thats just the robot, grippers, and vision system and cage with interlocks. and im talking a robot with a reach of about a meter and 5-10kg capacity. so agreed, its not like 100k or anything close to as little as racer says

 @wiscobiker @makripper Fook Yes!!! Arguing with that dip stick @Racer951 is a waste of our collective time.

 @bizutch: Fistpump! my bro's came to back me up man! Cute.

You guys are as incorrect as you are adorable.

 Yes dual crowns work the reg way. I was kinda like wtf because I own one. I'm guessing that the bikes the reg way would hit the roof on the side by side.

 Yup. I'm guessing if any Canyons peeps ever saw this they'd be a little sad, Deer Valley got a plug but the riding was at the Canyons.

 I noticed that too, thought it was pretty strange. Think it's just a "typo" or there's more going on there?

 @jossrennocks: You need to drive one first.

 @jimmythehat: I had one, it was the second biggest pile of shit I ever owned, they're worth a lot of money now though for some strange reason :-)

 @mark3: you must have built a dud, bang a modern engine and drive train in it and let the arse end go.

 @mark3: as if that one was stock

 Well no shit. How else do these guys make any money without it.