Transition's New TR Eleven Carbon DH Bike

Aug 1, 2017 at 12:59
by Transition Bikes  
We've seen Tahnee Seagrave racing (and winning) aboard Transition's new downhill bike out on the World Cup circuit this season, but until now, concrete details had been scarce. Well, the wait is over, and Transition are officially launching the new TR Eleven. With 27.5” wheels, a full carbon frame and 195mm of travel the new ride certainly looks ready to rip. We're working on snagging one in order to report back with some initial ride impressions, but until then, read on for more information from Transition. - Mike Kazimer



Press Release

Transition TR Eleven

Three years in the making. Born in carbon and based on our Giddy Up trail bike suspension platform. Bred in Cascadia and World Cup proven, the TR Eleven will elevate your riding whether you're racing downhill or doin' it in the park, bud. 195mm of rear wheel travel driven by our DH tuned Giddy Up linkage provides supreme grip, excellent mid stroke support and plenty of end stroke ramp to prevent harsh bottom out when hucked to flat.

What else is there to say? In the words of Nigel Tufnel, "The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and..."


Transition TR Eleven
Transition TR Eleven




Features

Sizes: Small, Medium, Large, X-Large
Colors: Black Powder, TR Blue
Full Carbon Front Triangle, Chainstay and Seatstay
Aluminum Rocker
Molded Rubber Chainstay and Downtube Protection
External Cable Routing
Enduro MAX Bearings
Collet Style Main Pivot Hardware
Universal Transition Derailleur Hanger, compatible with Giddy Up trail models
Post Mount Rear Brake
ISCG05 Chainguide Mounting
12x157mm Dropout Spacing
83mm Threaded Bottom Bracket
Frame Weight: 9bs / 4100g (Including Shock, DT/CS Protection And Frame Hardware)
195mm Rear Travel
160mm Post Mount Rear Brake
XO1 DH Complete USA MSRP - $7299
GX DH Complete USA MSRP - $5299
Frameset USA MSRP - $3199
Available Fall 2017
Transition TR Eleven
Transition TR Eleven


Transition TR Eleven


Transition TR Eleven

bigquotesSince having the TR11 I have been able to push my limits while having a trustworthy bike beneath me. It tracks the ground insanely well without losing the signature Transition playfulness, and it has helped me take my riding to a whole new level... all the way to 11. Tahnee Seagrave



184 Comments

  • + 99
 Everytime I feel like I finally cured my upgraditis and just enjoy what I have something like this comes...
  • + 28
 Couldn't have put it better myself! I pre-ordered my TR500, first brand new top of the bike for me, told myself (and the wife) this was "definitely" a 5 year bike...looks like that is getting cut short 2 years haha
  • + 49
 @Simon87: Haha, isn't every bike "definitely a 5 year bike"? The wives have learned by now...
  • + 4
 @bishopsmike: don't tell my wife, she still hasn't twigged!
  • + 10
 @Simon87: I'm glad to see I'm not the only one doing this song&dance with the old lady.
  • + 6
 Dont worry, 29" option in year or so...lol
  • + 74
 @bishopsmike: Just buy black bikes, they wont see the difference Smile
  • + 29
 @winko: "I just put this together with old parts I had in a box in the spare room. I've had them for ages. Years."
  • + 4
 @bishopsmike: Every bike is a 5 year bike when you don't have the cash to pursue your lusty bicycle desires.
  • + 3
 Seriously, they've done an amazing job of the visual design on this... @Simon87 Don't blame you for instantly wanting one. This is just a seriously beautiful frame design. Might be in my top 2 or 3 favorite frames aesthetically ever, as of right now.
  • + 18
 Trek: "Look at our new awesome Session 9.9!"
Transition: "Hold my beer"
  • + 5
 This sountrack...damn i miss that bmx movie..RAD!
  • + 2
 @winko: works like a charm Big Grin
  • + 3
 @winko: yep. I have five bikes. All are black.
  • - 1
 @Simon87: just need to buy new bikes almost the same color so they cant tell its new Wink
  • + 1
 @WaterBear: or a 10-year bike... Frown
  • + 33
 So many un employed bike engineers on here. You should start a bike company.
  • + 0
 haha! Exactly.
  • + 3
 Nothing wrong with trying to educate oneself about bike design. The alternative is going on feelings, which doesn't work out the way press releases make you feel they should.
  • + 25
 Sick - "Full Carbon"........"Aluminum rocker"....... wait a sec, that's not full carbon

Side note, external routing ? Who care's I still want it.
  • + 44
 Just converted my Scout to external routing. On a DH bike it makes so much sense to have external - for park bikes that see a hard life and for race bikes that need to be kept running at 110%. I even think it looks better than stuffing cables into the frame. Not looking to spark a debate, I know a lot of people like internal and that's fine by me.
  • + 10
 @ThomDawson:
Have no idea about other downhill frames, but with the Demo there is a plastic tube inside the frame that the cable runs through. So running internal cables is less effort than external because you don't faff about with more hooks that keep the cable in place, and it literally is just a matter of pushing the cable through and then seeing it pop out the other end in seconds.
  • + 3
 @Jack-McLovin: yeah Transition already do that with their trail bikes I'm pretty sure. Interesting that they didn't give that option with this bike...
  • + 7
 @ThomDawson: I have never had an internally route frame but would prefer external anyway. It makes faffing amd fettling a whole lot easier.

If done neatly external cables look fine. Plus I have never snagged a cable so dont see the point in the extra hassle.
  • + 39
 @Jack-McLovin: can you fit your caliper through those holes? Razz
  • + 19
 F*ck internal routing if you've got to fix/change/work on/swap brakes. Rear brakes need to be external routing IMO
  • + 13
 No TITS
  • + 1
 @ThomDawson: lol nearly! But to be honest I don't play around with my cables that much anyway, so when I need to it's probably time to give the brake a bleed anyway.
  • + 10
 @mrtoodles: On that note all 2018 TR trail bikes have externally routed rear brakes but have left gears and droppers internally routed. It gets my vote! tup
  • + 1
 @wythall1: no way!? That's awesome! I would have gone the whole hog and left the gear cable on the outside too but I like the sound of that a lot.
  • + 1
 @ThomDawson: It's great news! Its a real pain having internally routed rear brake on my 2015 Patrol, I will replace it this year with the 2018 Patrol for certain when it comes now.
  • + 3
 @Jack-McLovin: Until you need to swap a rear brake. You have to cut the olive off to get the hose out of the frame. Then refit a new barb and olive to refit. If the hose is still long enough....
And taking the reverb off needs a rebleed every time as you have to remove the button.
Nice and clean looking though.
  • + 1
 @bender-oz: rip TITS Frown
  • - 1
 @gravityslaves: What? no. SRAM has had disconnect on the bottom of Reverbs for a while now, called a "connectamajig." You can even add it to older posts that still use the old "Screw the hose into the bottom of the post" fitting.
  • + 1
 @groghunter: Yes! That lets you get the post out only. But to get the hose out, the connectamajig won't pass up through the frame routing so the hose is trapped in the frame. Connectamajig one end, button on the other, so you need to unscrew the button and withdraw the hose, losing fluid. Not common, but does happen.

And fitting it reverse. Remove button, fit threaded adaptor, feed an old cable down the frame and screw on then withdraw.
  • + 1
 @gravityslaves: depends on the frame. Connectamajig fits just fine through the ports on my Devinci. Your expierence /= everyone's experience. You portrayed it as an absolute, but it is not.
  • + 1
 @bender-oz: Saved me the trouble of saying that myself. Two In The Shirt.
  • + 3
 @ThomDawson: I like external routing. So much easier to work on. I routed the der cable internally on my park bike, which requires loosening the fork and removing the crank. What a PITA. Especially since cables get fouled quick in the mud and sometimes you have to replace a destroyed derailleur (your point exactly).
  • + 1
 @wythall1: no,you've been banned, Carrera for you my son lol
  • + 1
 @wythall1: If it looks anything like this TR Eleven, I'll also be getting a 2018 Patrol. Fingers crossed!!
  • + 18
 maybe they could put decent bearings in the other bikes they sell.
  • + 5
 At least warranty the crap bearings which I believe they are finally doing on a case-by-case basis. My Smuggler bearings were toast in less than 4 months...
  • + 3
 Even with better bearings, they blow out on the regular. I'm still not sure why.
  • + 14
 Cartridge bearings aren't the best choice for suspension pivots... They like to spin, not rock back and forth on the same small spot...
  • + 2
 Just put the black oxidised Enduro Max in the main pivot on the Scout I'm riding but not expecting miracles. They seem to suck in moisture down there. Last budget set lasted 2 months :-S
  • + 2
 That would be nice! Big Grin
  • + 5
 @lumpy873: I agree. That said, the shop I work at maintains a rental fleet and we really dislike how much effort goes into maintaining our Transitions. We had about 30 Specialized Enduros last year and only replaced on average half of the bearings (main pivot and rocker link pivot) at the end of the year- and that was without needing to replace any of them throughout the year. Compare that to Transition's TR500 and Patrol, where we needed to replace the main pivot bearings every other month, and all of the rest of the bearings twice throughout the season.

The situation is only made worse by the fact that Transition uses less common bearings that neither QBP nor BTI keep in stock.

P.S. I know you're thinking "That shop is staffed by cheapskates, they didn't replace all of the bearings in 30 bikes!". We didn't need to replace half of them because they were still spinning very smoothly.
  • + 1
 The rocker link bearings went on my patrol after two months so I replaced them with Phil Wood stainless steel bearings. After almost a year, and the wettest winter on record here, I took a look at them. They're still spotless and spin like new. Pricier, but worth it I think.
  • + 1
 @LindLTaylor: Funny, i ride a patrol and I know two guy riding spe (enduro and stumpy); I ride like 3 or 4 times more often than them, and my bearings are fine after nearly two years, but they both had to replace 2 times their frame bearings and their pressfit BB are always creaky.
I guess there are some bad lots and I was lucky
  • + 2
 Noob question, I've got a Scout, how do you know when the bearings go? I've noticed some play in the pivot when I lift the bike, related?
  • + 1
 @zede: do they jet wash their bikes and you don't?
  • + 2
 @ThomDawson @poah : When you get a new set in there pull the seals on the ALL of the bearings and pack them full of grease. I ride and race in conditions that are more often wet than not, and can get most of a season out of a set of bearings if I do a full tear down and grease with new frame/bearings. Most bearings, high or low grade, do not have enough grease in there.
  • + 2
 @DHVT1990: Im afraid I disagree with this advice. I've tried what you suggest numerous times and have had limited success. Are you talking from experience with Transitions current bikes? I've had frames that go years on a set of budget bearings with/ without trying to add grease. I've also had a Transition which enjoys necking shit straight off the back wheel like a fresher doing shots of Jäger from the bosom of a barmaid.
In my opinion Seal is the number one defence against the Jäger and we're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy. Seal is not to be f*cked with.
  • + 1
 @tiagomano: might be, i just wash my bike with a wet towel and toothbrush
  • + 0
 @zede: I was following what you were saying and at "necking shit" you straight up lost me for the rest of your post.

Too much Jäger?
  • + 2
 @src248: first, check that the pivots are properly torqued down and, second, the shock DU bushings are good... if yes to both, new bearing time... get enduro max bearings. Lower main pivot is generally the first to go.
  • + 2
 @src248: could be shock eyelet bushings, grasp the shock by the eyelet area as you lift the bike, if it's loose that your issue.
  • + 1
 @jstnrt: you quoted the wrong guy
  • + 1
 @LindLTaylor: actually, I would only call you a shop full of cheapskates if you didn't replace the bearings. And some of those can be a bitch to deal with... But, it sounds like you get a lot of practice...
  • + 18
 Mountain bikes are so dang good today
  • + 14
 Smells like TR500 discounts Good news !
  • + 12
 Half park alligator half man
  • + 3
 blue flowers
  • + 3
 Kool Komment
  • + 2
 Your whole crew is ice cream, fudge
  • + 1
 rad lil interview from last couple weeks............


www.thrashermagazine.com/articles/music-interviews/kool-keith-interview
  • + 11
 that bike is the hotness.

So, with that steep effective seat tube, will it pedal well? Razz
  • - 2
 Steep is better for pedaling, though in a race you probably won't sit down...
  • + 3
 @SintraFreeride: That's the joke.
  • + 1
 @LindLTaylor: Yep!

but I'm mildly curious. the seattube and headtube angles aren't too far off from the Sentinel. aside from the possible weight penalty, could it actually be a bike that pedals ok? obviously there's more to it than just hta and sta.
  • + 1
 Define "pedals ok". Assuming a general definition...

Short answer: Probably not.

Long answer: Really depends on the suspension design. Given that this is an 8" downhill bike made by a company that actually makes decent FR/Park/DH bikes, it's probably not going to pedal that well.

Assuming it's relative to DH bikes:

Probably okay, but that's more of the evolution of the modern DH bike and suspension design more than anything Transition really pioneered.
  • + 7
 Nice work again Transition. Only Transition I can afford is my Klunker (and love it) but this would be top of my list for riding that is not of the coaster--70s-retro-fireroad-shenanigans variety.
  • + 9
 Why does the frame to come with a 160mm brake mount? Seems a bit odd on a serious downhill bike.
  • + 1
 My first thought too
  • + 3
 The 160mm is probably an aesthetic choice for the seat stays.
  • + 4
 Finally, good looking downhill bike. No extraordinary suspension solution that requires two sets of chain like Commencal Supreme DH. Nice lines of front triangle, easy access to the shock damping knobs, external cable routing, no garish painting. Only the price might be slightly lower, or budget setup available. Oh come on guys, this is what most of us need, isn't it? Cheers!
  • + 7
 This +100. It's gorgeous. I don't get to ride lift-assisted dh nearly enough to justify the purchase but goddamn I want one.
  • + 6
 Threaded BB.....thank you Smile
  • + 1
 I know there seems to be a temporary hold on things, but isn't everyone going to be racing 29er DH bikes next year?

Hard to spend seven grand on something that might be obsolete by February. Yes, it is is still fun, ride your bike, blah, blah, blah. But this feels like the 26 inch Carbon Covert birthed in to face of the 27.5 wave because Transition already sunk a ton of money in to it.
  • + 7
 maybe those big linkys who are 6'6" plus and ride xxl, for short arses like me I'm still 26" and can get hit on the arse with back wheel on steep stuff. Or maybe we will have all 29er focused tracks for next year.. I see it more as this, xs/s on 26", m/l on 27.5", xl/xxl on 29". Theres a few smaller companies out there think the same.
  • - 3
 I agree with you wibbly wobbly. No way would this be coming out in 27.5 if they weren't caught with their pants down by the 29 wave.
  • + 2
 @jaame: Most people wouldn't even want it in 29", most people aren't racing.
  • + 0
 @jaame:
The majority of DH riders won't be riding 29ers, ever. Like it's been said, it's most likely an upcoming niche market for taller riders. So please, kindly stfu.
  • + 1
 @mollow: there's no need to be rude old chap.

Time will tell regarding 29ers. I think you're wrong, but that is just my opinion.
  • + 1
 Way more riders ditched the 29er than are still using it this season.
  • + 6
 160 PM... WTF?
  • + 4
 "excellent mid stroke support and plenty of end stroke ramp"


Yea but what about the small bump sensitivity?
  • + 2
 It's a coil, man.
  • + 1
 @bishopsmike: haha exactly - remember those, guys?

Makes me happy to see ... Coil > air
  • + 2
 @nvranka: Correction: Coil >>>>>>>>>> Air
  • + 2
 does your girlfriend have small bump sensitivity?
  • + 1
 Forget arguing about the different generic topologies of suspension designs - they're all but irrelevant. What actually matters is the projected pivot point and how it moves through the travel and the leverage curve (and to a tiny degree the rear wheel path).

Read this:

linkagedesign.blogspot.com

Or watch these:

m.youtube.com/channel/UCAicBI2QJNNrE2j_RkbzjYQ

to learn more.
  • + 2
 Lets not forget the location of the brake mount, ie: how much it rotates throughout the travel leading to suspension influences when braking aka inducing another torque into the system. Also amount of chain growth/shrinkage through the travel introducing yet another force to the system that will impact the feel of the bikes suspension
  • + 0
 @logcabm77: The location and movement of the brake mount can be entirely predicted by projecting the virtual pivot point (aka instant centre) and drawing a diagonal line between the rear contact patch and the instant centre and seeing where it hits a vertical line from the front contact patch. The closer that intersection point is to the height of the rider's centre of gravity, the greater the brake anti-rise. The same thing happens with the anti-squat (which is caused by the chain growth) - you can predict it by drawing lines through the pivot points, contact patches and chain line and referencing to the height of the centre of mass.
  • + 1
 @threehats: what you're saying about the brake anti-rise is true assuming that the brake mount pivots along the same path that the wheel follows, which is often not true. Take a devinci Wilson for example. The brake is mounted to the chainstay whilst the axle follows the path that results from the instant centre where the seatstay mounts to the frame. Those methods using virtual lines and referencing them to pivot points and centers of mass only apply to basic designs and even then aren't always really true representations of the forces present.
  • + 1
 Your method only takes into account anti-rise due to the rear wheel moving slightly rearward under braking forces, but it does not account for the torque on the brake mount from deaccelerating the rear wheel, which in most cases attempts to push the bike further into its travel as well, or rather not allow it to extend after a compression under braking (antirise) ... this force can be seen whether the bike is in the air or on the ground, unlike the force you are explaining involving the contact patch in relation to the bikes virtual pivot. What you are explaining only applies when you are braking on the ground and is often referred to as brake-squat (this is the same thing that causes brake-dive on a fork). I'm not saying that force isn't present, but there're two major forces that contribute to suspension influence by the brakes. As for chain growth, this is not affected in any way by the riders center of mass, but rather the change in distance between the BB and rear axle throughout the travel (more specifically the length of chain between point where the chain initially contacts the chainring and cassette on the tensioned/top side of the chain).
  • + 1
 @logcabm77: With a split-pivot bike like the Devinci the anti-rise can be calculated like the bike is a four bar design whilst the anti-squat is works like a linkage driven single-pivot.
  • + 0
 @logcabm77: It isn't "my method", it's how the entire bike industry works when designing full-sis frames. The rider's centre of mass has a huge effect on how the chain tension works on the pivots to cancel out pedal squat - it doesn't change the force or torque the chain tension is generating but it changes how much force is required to balance the upside down pendulum of the rider's mass.
  • + 2
 Dont get me wrong, i love transition bikes (own a Scout and a Patrol). I am sure this one rides awsome but the price for these components??
Lost me on this one Transition.
Will be a commencal Furious race for me..
  • + 2
 Really gorgeous, though I'm not sure that I would go for it over a Phoenix which I think has a better kit for the same price. Plus 32 tooth on the Sixc cranks?? Is that a typo?
  • + 2
 I'm wondering why they chose 195mm and an 8.75 x 2.75 (222mm x 70mm) rear shock. Maybe because of the progressiveness of the design?
  • + 1
 I seem to recall trek using that on the old session and them saying it limited tuning options.... But it never held Gwinner back.
  • + 3
 Oh my shit the ode to Spinal Tap is real and I love it! But can the bike huck 'Stonengeee?
  • + 2
 I told myself to be happy with my 500. Ya know, maybe settle down, put $7300 aside for emergencies. Grownup stuff. Now this comes along. Guess I'm staying single.
  • + 1
 Anyone else pick up on 47 seconds to go in the video the second guy crashes out and you can hear " F*** " in the back ground ?
  • + 2
 Is it just me or does the wheelbase seem insanely long. It's bigger than an m16 or a v10....by a lot!
  • + 1
 Look at the geo chart of the kona operator 27.5 and you'll see a similar bike (TR is longer stays and shorter reach). Of course my base model operator 27.5 cost the same as this bike would for shock and frame only, except I got a complete ultra-burly alloy bike with a lifetime warranty.
  • + 1
 if you look at sizing though it's spot on. I would ride a Large on the TR11, but would be on an XL V10, m16, or TR500.
  • + 3
 That must mean I can finally buy a TR500 cheap
  • + 2
 So the single pivot linkage of the tr-500 wasn't actually really good, and kept it from going to 11?
  • + 1
 Love the Spinal Tap reference. "...but this one goes to 11." Nicely done.
  • + 1
 Ooooooooo...looks like my girlfriend will have to wait another two years for an engagement ring
  • + 1
 Interested in a frame only...would want to know the weight first before letting go of anywhere near that ammount of cash!
  • + 1
 I believe it says in thext. 9 and change if I recall.
  • + 1
 Just when I thought Transition couldn't make a better ad.... they throw Spinal Tap in there. Now I need this bike.
  • + 2
 Digging the tip of the hat to the music from Rad.
  • + 1
 sick bike. I cant believe the seat angle is so steep! this bike could probably pedal okay with that seat angle
  • + 1
 The use of the Rad soundtrack in the video makes me giddy. I love that movie.
  • + 1
 We miss you on the East side Skye. Hope you are loving life over in the big city.
  • + 2
 Loving the wes anderson style video. sweet.
  • + 2
 So, when does the longer travel 29er frame come out?
  • + 2
 Transition is such a funny brand. And the Seagrave's kick ass.
  • + 1
 Looks awesome! What's the shock eye to eye?
  • + 1
 WHAAAAT ? NO SPACE FOR WATERBOTTLE?! EXAAACTLY
  • - 3
 Definitely not impressed. Looks like any other 27.5" downhill bike available, from aesthetics to the numbers. Turned up to eleven? Hardly. I thought with a name like that it was going to have some wild stuff like 11 inches of rear travel or at least something different, but nope. This bike is at a 5.
  • + 1
 Where's the Minnaar version?
  • + 1
 Well that settles it, I know what trail I'll be riding this afternoon.
  • + 1
 these colors are sooo good
  • + 1
 Tahnee playing along with it is the best part of this article.
  • + 1
 Well 19,5cm are not 20cm.....that's what she said.
  • + 1
 That dumb black fork better not be on the xo build
  • + 1
 it is
  • + 2
 No 11° head angle?
  • + 1
 HNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG
  • + 1
 Just oozin' the sexy.
  • + 1
 I want
  • + 1
 Spinal tap anyone?!?!?
  • + 1
 No bottle cage mounts.
  • + 1
 BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!
  • + 0
 That is one hot bike right there!
  • + 1
 Nice slack looking bike.
  • + 1
 BUTTER!!!
  • - 3
 I'm surprised that as a Transition bike it does not include PC-CMM system standing for: Painstakingly Conceived Comedic Marketing Model
  • - 2
 They used to run the shock low in the frame via a shock tunnel. This looks like a Session.
  • - 3
 Did anyone else notice the ALL BLACK Fox 40???? Love it!!!
  • + 0
 You love the lower budget 40? ? ?
  • + 2
 @MX298: IIRC, the only difference between Factory and Performance Elite is the stanchion coating.
  • - 1
 @mungbean: straight of fox web site"The 40 has a different damper (with fewer adjustments) but continues the black ano upper tube theme."
  • + 2
 @mungbean: Single crowns forks are the same except for the upper tube coatings. The dual crown Performance Elite loses the HSC adjustment found on the Factory version.
  • + 1
 thanks for clarifying. Did not know that.
  • + 6
 Hey guys, just to clarify as we seem to be the first ones pushing for this but the fork we are using is a Factory model RC2 damper just without Kashima. It is different from their other black stanchion Performance Elite models which have only a low speed compression adjuster. It's not labeled as a Factory fork since it doesn't have Kashima. Best of both worlds!
  • - 3
 Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the counter-rotating link make it a VPP design?
  • + 0
 Pretty sure VPP uses dual counter rotating links, whereas this is a horst link combined with a rocker link.
  • - 2
 @ka-brap: The chainstay is the 'lower' link in this design. It's a lot longer but it serves the same purpose as the short lower SC/Intense link. 2 links that rotate in different directions = VPP...?
  • + 1
 @Franziskaner: If you look at any VPP bike, the rear triangle is unified (no pivots) and is attached to the main triangle using short, dual counter rotating links. This does not fall within the scope of VPP. This is a horst link combined with a rocker link.
  • + 2
 VPP has a solid rear triangle. This is a Horst Link like Specialized uses in most of their bikes...
  • - 5
flag Franziskaner (Aug 2, 2017 at 2:19) (Below Threshold)
 @ka-brap: I've looked. The fact that that SC bikes use a triangular swingarm is irrelevant. In BOTH designs, between the main front triangle pivot and the rear axle is a rotating link. SC bikes use a short link, Trans use a long one. Both serve broadly the same function, and rotate the same way.
And the upper link that drives the shock rotates in the other direction to the lower one. As far as I understand it, this does fall within the scope of VPP, because it causes the virtual pivot point to migrate slightly.
Repeatedly saying 'Horst link combined with a rocker link' is meaningless. All Horst link bikes use a rocker link.
  • + 4
 @Franziskaner: It's not irrelevant- it's quite inherent to how the bikes operate and the resulting function is very different. The VPP design which uses a unified rear triangle mated to the front triangle via short, dual counter rotating links causes the axle path to move like an "S" throughout its travel. A horst link bike (like the Transition) will have more of a vertical axle path. They function very differently and behave very differently. Sorry, but you are simply 100% wrong on this point.
  • + 1
 @bastjan: Thanks for those pictures. I know what both bikes look like. Please actually read my post just above, and respond to the words in it. I'm not trying to troll anyone. I just want someone to discuss the designs and point out accurately why I am wrong, if I am wrong. You haven't done that.
  • - 1
 @ka-brap: We agree that this Transition uses counter-rotating links, don't we?
  • + 3
 Franziskaner is correct that the rear triangle construction is somewhat irrelevant to what type of suspension the bike uses. That said, "VPP," "Horst Link," etc, were just specific kinematics with catchy but arbitrary marketing terms attached in the form of a patent (which is how Ellsworth got away with their "Instant Center" design without getting successfully sued but Specialized). Horst Links pivot point was just as virtual as VPPs. In this case Transition used a mixture of both to make their own thing. Nukeproof use a similar setup on the new Mega. So really, it's neither.
  • + 1
 @Franziskaner: A horst link is a virtual pivot point by logical definition. The wheel does not move around an actual pivot.

VPP is just the marketing name Santa Cruz uses for their linkage. They have a now expired patent on it (US6488301).
  • + 1
 @Franziskaner: But given their length, what they attach to, and how they attach to it results in a very different suspension design and why the Transition design is not VPP.

@ninjatarian: as many suspension designs utilize a pivot point that is "virtual" or having an "instant center", that is not purely the point of VPP (which agreed is a marketing name). Given the axle path differences, the affects on pedaling, braking, etc. are the main reasons why this is not within the scope of VPP.
  • + 3
 @ka-brap: Just so you are aware, VPP does not have an "S" shaped axle path. Santa Cruz admitted several years ago that despite their theoretical drawing, in a nutshell, they had mislead people. The actual VPP axle path is a standard arc, just like Horst Link.

http://rs3.pbsrc.com/albums/y53/motolite/66.jpg?w=480&h=480&fit=clip
  • + 15
 Quick summary of suspension designs:

1. Single pivot
2. Linkage driven single pivot
3a. Common-rotating four bar (aka Horst Link)
3b. Counter-rotating four bar
4a. Common-rotating short-link four bar (aka DW Link, KS Link, Maestro, Mondraker Zero)
4b Counter-rotating short-link four bar (aka VPP)

What matters most is the actual or projected pivot location and how it moves through the travel. That design choice is more important to the pedalling and braking behaviour than the topology.

However, there is a commonality about how the suspension's behaviour changes so:

1. Single pivot - anti-squat and anti-rise are fixed and if anti-squat is high then pedal kickback is high. Leverage curve usually flat.
2. Linkage driven single pivot - same as single pivot but leverage curve can be optimised (progressive is usually best).
3a. Common-rotating four bar - anti-squat can change a small amount through the travel, kickback is often on the higher side for that anti-squat level, anti-rise is usually low (active during braking but geometry can get out of shape). Leverage curve can be optimised.
3b. Counter-rotating four bar - anti-squat and anti-rise change little through the travel, in many ways it behaves more like a linkage-driven single pivot.
4a. Common-rotating short-link four bar - anti-squat and anti-rise can change a lot through the travel to minimise pedal kickback, anti-rise usually greater than with 3a so less active but better geometry preservation, leverage can be optimised.
4b. Counter-rotating short-link four bar - anti-squat and anti-rise can change a lot, leverage curve is hard to optimise unless driven from the lower link (like the new Nomad).

NB: The new Polygon/Marin designs and Yeti are variations on the short-link four bar.

I've yet to see any designs better those based around 3a and 4a, particularly fine examples being Nicolai and YT's "Horst Links" and Banshee and Mondraker's KS and Zero designs. But I'd rather have a great single pivot than a poorly optimised Horst Link.
  • + 2
 @ka-brap: i think what franziskaner is getting at is the idea that what differentiates a "vpp" bike, by its former patent's definition, from other dual link bikes is the dual rotating(1 clockwise, 1 counter) directions of movement. Fsr and transition have previously had the upper link and lower chainstay "giant link" move in the SAME clockwise direction.
  • + 0
 @Ron-C: Thank you. I didn't know it was a key definition in their patent, I just remember being told it by someone clever once
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