The Tuesday Tune Ep 4 - Springs vs Dampers - Video

Nov 15, 2016 at 16:34
by Vorsprung Suspension  
Views: 7,651    Faves: 66    Comments: 2


This week we're having a look at the role of the spring and the damper in your suspension, how they interact, and what the practical differences between the two are.



MENTIONS: @VorsprungSuspension





80 Comments

  • 51 0
 AWESOME TUTORIALS STEVE, KEEP THEM COMING !
  • 11 0
 +1 This is a really awesome way to raise the bar for technical understanding in the community & brand awareness at the same time. Tip my hat!
  • 6 0
 +1 loving this series; it's helping me more clearly understand tuning my suspension, and since I'm fortunate to have a Float 36 RC2 on the front and DB Air on the back there are plenty of adjustments to mess with!
  • 1 0
 Nice, very useful...after 5 years in MTB now I start to learn...and after a few crashes also Smile
  • 16 1
 I always pretend to understand in these videos.
  • 15 0
 Let us know if anything isn't clear, we're always after feedback on how these vids could be improved Smile
  • 27 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Some whiteboard drawings could always helpWink
  • 7 0
 @Archimonde: noted, will get on that!
  • 1 0
 Spring controls rider, damping controls spring. It's a general saying, but is a great way to understand the difference between the two.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Adding some graphs showing the spring rate and how compression damper and rebound effect it would be very helpful. BTW thanks for the video.
  • 5 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Appreciated the bit about dampers converting energy to heat. That added a piece to the mental puzzle of suspension. And you helped me get a better idea of how to use my low speed compression adjust. Thanks Steve!
  • 9 1
 Awesome explanation of Spring versus Dampener ... the example where one stores energy and one dissipates as heat really drove home the point for me ... got a Floax X2 and been fiddling with it a lot this year.
  • 27 4
 I hope you're aware of proper bomb disposal techniques... don't cut the orange wire...
  • 7 6
 @medievalbiking: You do realize that out of the tens of thousands of units sold, less than 1% have exploded and Fox is doing a self-issued recall? If your talking about an unrecognized bomb look at Cane Creek.
  • 12 3
 @siderealwall2: it's a joke... we are happy we have something to joke about. It is pretty irrelevant who made the recall - We'd be joking about it. Nobody makes a jokes and then says: off course other dampers explode too.
  • 7 0
 Damper. Dampener gets you a little moist.
  • 4 1
 @WAKIdesigns don't be so rude to him, he clearly lost his sense of humour in the great float x2 fire of '67
  • 7 0
 @VorsprungSuspension Can you explain the differences between relying on spring progression vs HSC for bottom out control and square edge impact. For example i like having supple suspension over rooty terrain but with enough bottom out control for the biggers jumps and drops. Both my fork and shock offer progression and HSC adjustments, what do you suggest?

Cheers and thanks for the informative videos
  • 11 0
 HSC will have an effect everywhere in the stroke, including the roots that you're hitting in the early stroke - you can increase the HSC until it starts to feel harsh on that sort of thing. Spring progression really affects the last third of the stroke substantially and the rest not so much, so you can do what you like with that and not have it affect the first part of the stroke so much.
  • 3 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: So on rought terrain with a mix of square edged impacts and drops/jumps it would be preferable to run light HSC but to use the volume spacers to control bottom out ? Can you point out a few examples where it would be preferable to use more HSC and a more linear spring and vice versa?
  • 3 0
 @Gilo: You always want some amount of HSC damping because otherwise there is no LSC damping either. Exactly how much you need varies, but bigger hits where keeping control is an issue (not drops or jumps with smooth landings, think more like the huge holes in typical WC tracks), especially if the terrain is steep, require substantial HSC as well. If for example you were riding something particularly steep and rough where the max speeds aren't so high, running more HSC with a firmer/more linear spring rate can be beneficial, otherwise you find yourself too riding far into the travel without enough support in the early stroke.
  • 4 0
 @VorsprungSuspension Could I convince you to develop an app that helps folks sort out their suspension while on the trail?
You could enter your fork/shock and your rebound/damping settings then It could ask questions you can reflect on while on the trail.It might suggest refinements based on your answers, as well as illustrating how suspension systems work.
  • 1 0
 That would be very cool if you could select your fork maybe? And put in a few things and it spits out tuning options that would be nice.
  • 1 0
 That would be cool and I have contemplated something along those lines but right now it's not on the cards.
  • 6 0
 I just watch these because I miss hearing Steve rant about technical engineering things that I'll never understand.
  • 5 0
 you love it
  • 13 0
 Basically, if it's oily, call Steve. If it's on fire, call Rob.
  • 3 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: and if it's not on fire, just go direct to Steve.
  • 3 0
 Thanks for the great videos. Talking suspension and experimenting is a lot of fun. Keep them coming Steve! Could you explain the interplay between the relative effects of LSR and HSR and the type of event and stored spring energy i.e is it how the fork (for example) got to a certain point in its travel rather than where is is that affects which circuit will be affected?

Cheers,

Mark
  • 7 0
 How the fork gets to a certain position in its travel is largely irrelevant - how far the spring is compressed dictates the amount of stored energy and the amount of force it is able to deliver. In that respect, the highest rebound speeds will always occur deep in the travel, which is why Rockshox marketed their HSR/LSR adjusters as "beginning stroke" and "ending stroke" even though that wasn't strictly correct.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Lol, I was always concerned that i had it the wrong way round when adjusting the rebound on my r2c2. If theyd just called them high and low speed it woulda made a lot more sense. Now I've got a charger and I only get one dial at each end. Frown

What confuses me now is that if you look at the suggested tunes in the charger (boxxer) manual, the med and firm compression stacks are very similar. The only differences being that the med tune has a thicker shim near the piston face than the firm, then at the other end of the stack there are a few thicker shims on either tune. the med tune looks like it would be stiffer than the firm tune to my untrained eye. could you shed any light on this?
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.
  • 1 0
 @gabriel-mission9: It's all to do with the single thick shim at the back of the Firm stack (18x0.20) which replaces the 18x0.15 in the Med stack and gives it a lot more preload. Shim thickness affects stiffness a lot - the 0.2 shims are about 2.4 times stiffer than the 0.15s. Anything behind the 8mm spacer shims (above them on the page) is not an active part of the shim stack. The stacks shown in the manual are kind of all over the place though, there are no face shims shown in compression (ring shims should not act directly on the piston) and the shape of the rebound curve (rather than just the scale) varies from one tune to another.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Ok. What confused me was the med tunes thicker 16x1.5 shim, second in from the piston, compared to the 16x1 in the firm tune. I now realise it sits inside the 18x3 ring shim, so doesnt really function like a normal shim. Makes more sense now, thanks.
  • 2 0
 @gabriel-mission9: Ah yeah ok - that actually increases the preload on the stack, because there is a bigger difference between the guide shim thickness and the ring shim thickness.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Yeah, all makes sense now. As soon as I realised the guide shim sits inside the ring shim, I worked out that the thicker the guide shim is the less the shims above will bend into the ring shim, reducing the preload. I have not actually opened up the charger damper and looked at the shims in the flesh, so still kinda feeling around in the dark a bit.

These video's you make are awesome. Even some of the more basic stuff you talk about changed the way I look at things I thought I understood well. The more complicated bits you get into are a godsend, as no-one else on the internet seems to dare go into so much detaill, or think that anyone would be interested. So yeah, thank you for taking the time to make them, and please keep it up. Smile
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension - thanks again for another great video. On the topic of damping, or maybe a topic all its own, what are your thoughts on Trek's Re:Activ suspension with it's regressive curve rate? Seems to me it's just pre-tuned, cranked-up low-speed compression with mild high-speed. Is there something more to it? I'd be keen to see a comparison to it and other shock dampening systems.


- thanks.
  • 2 0
 www.pinkbike.com/u/VorsprungSuspension/blog/nerd-alert-inside-the-foxtrekpenske-reaktiv-drcv-shock.html

Basically your synopsis is correct, though it differs from most setups in that the HSC is not really tied to the LSC threshold in any way, and so you can run a firmer platform for climbing without necessarily requiring a lot of high speed damping. For descending or while in the open mode it is no different to a conventional damper.
  • 2 0
 How in the hell do you get a fox float shock open without dislocating your thumb in the process? Trying to open a fox float X and cant get a grip on it because of the piggyback any tips?
  • 3 0
 Use a rubber strap to grip the canister?
  • 1 1
 @bstill30: this. Channel locks and an old tube will also do the trick so long as you're mechanically inclined and not ham fisting everything.
  • 2 1
 Yeah, the tool is called a strap wrench.
  • 1 0
 Have you seen the size of steves thumbs?
  • 9 1
 Rubber strap wrench is what you need! Most of them suck, but had good luck with the Blue Point (Snap-on's cheaper subsidiary brand) ones. Whatever you get, make sure it has a soft rubber strap not some crappy plastic thing that has about as much grip as a Hookworm on wet grass.
  • 2 0
 As a first step, you can try using an old tube as a strap wrench.
  • 1 0
 Or you can just use some inner tube to grip if its not crazy tight...
  • 1 0
 I have tried all of these its on stupidly tight all air has been dumped etc and my hands really hurt lol
  • 3 0
 A pliable leather belt may also do the trick. As in, a belt that is used to hold trousers up.
  • 1 0
 With regards to preload and LSC, I get that one would want to use the least amount of preload when setting up sag, but lets say you are in between spring rates for shits and giggles. Would you need to back off the LSC if you are a turn or two past the recommended preload to help maintain small bump sensitivity?
  • 6 0
 We'll cover the specifics of sag in an upcoming video, and this question will be addressed in some detail. However no, the LSC setting should not really be anything to do with preload.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Perfect, and thanks for the reply!
  • 2 0
 Dear VorsprungSuspension, I learn a lot by watching your videos. Would love to watch something about setting up suspension and comparison to the setup that is present among some professional riders. Cheers!
  • 1 0
 Great video thanks. I wonder if you could independently test and give your opinions on suspension products.Especially with the interest of people who like tuning and adjusting their settings? Which products are best, most effective etc.

Also you could introduce more adjustments techniques? What we should do in this scenario or try this etc...?

Good work though!
  • 4 0
 Pinkbike already has a mammoth amount of suspension testing and reviews posted by their staff, so it's unlikely we will go that route any time soon, however as far as technical comparisons, we'll probably slot a few in there Smile
  • 4 0
 Great job Steve with those videos ! Very good to understand better what actually happens when you ride.
  • 1 0
 I have a question about my fork and shock I had them rebuilt and stiffer springs and a stiffer calving tune. But when I was riding a large drop say around forty feet down when I landed I bottomed out hard and barely held on if I was to increase the spring rate and retune the valveing would that help on the harshness of the impact I currently am running 15 percent sag so if I drop it down to 10 percent would that help ?
  • 1 0
 Yep - if you're hitting legit 40 foot drops you're going to want monumentally stiff spring and damping rates.
  • 1 0
 On bigger jumps with a ton of transition compression im almost thinking higher spring rate/less compression on fork and less spring more compression on rear. I usually turn ip the compression on fork and shock hut almost think that's not ootimal anymore after seeing this. Basically thinking leave the front more lively and deaden the rear slightly so it pops the bike more naturally up in the front and then be able to float the bike more before pushing it down into the landing? Thoughts?
  • 1 0
 Sorry for the Typo fest above. Sheeesh
  • 1 0
 You're on the right track with that for sure. Using the damper either in compression or rebound, to dissipate energy in the back prevents it from kicking.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: sweet thank you. Great videos. Always learn something that improves my bike
  • 1 0
 I changed my bar rise and it had an effect on how much lsc I needed to run, the more you play with your the suspension the more you realise it is the center of the universe on your bike.
  • 3 0
 For sure - you can make setup/geometric changes to the bike that alter your requirements from the suspension. Raising bar height means you don't need to rely so much on spring rate or compression damping to keep the bars up where you need them, for example.
  • 2 0
 This would be a lot more useful with some simple visual aids (like hand draw charts or a whiteboard) instead of just talking.
  • 2 0
 Noted, thanks!
  • 2 0
 I watch these videos religiously. Always looking for ways to improve my ride. Keep them coming.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension a simple question: The Rebound tune in simple Forks or Shoks (eg. Pike or Monarch +) is it "Low Speed Rebound" or High and LSR?
  • 3 0
 Most rebound adjusters are considered low speed adjusters unless specified otherwise, however most dampers are usually configured in such a way that the rebound adjuster has a noticeable effect at all rebound speeds.
  • 3 1
 If you constantly hack to flag what do you suggest I do?
  • 21 0
 Take an English class?
  • 21 0
 Incite political unrest?
  • 2 0
 Love these videos, please keep them coming!
  • 2 0
 Superb series, keep 'em coming!
  • 1 1
 @VorsprungSuspension : Why have progressive (variable or dual rate) coil springs never been used in MTB ? They do exist and aren't so unusual.
  • 3 0
 They have been in the past (like 15 years ago), but realistically they complicated setup more than they assisted it.
  • 1 0
 Well said. I enjoyed and learned from this. Thank you PB. Please keep this up.
  • 1 0
 @Vorsprung, What do you think of the Shockwiz app for tuning suspension?
  • 5 0
 Haven't had the chance to try one yet, but it's a cool idea for relatively affordable consumer level tuning for sure, although there are a couple of limitations in that you can't actually directly infer position from air pressure alone, and it runs at a low sample rate. I think it's sufficient to help a lot of people improve their setup though, which is the aim of the game - it isn't trying to be F1 level data logging, it's trying to help people get the most out of their setup for the least amount of messing around, and I think that is very achievable.
  • 1 0
 cheers, thanks





You must login to Pinkbike.
Don't have an account? Sign up

Join Pinkbike  Login
Copyright © 2000 - 2022. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv56 0.014260
Mobile Version of Website