Pretty well all the shocks currently on the market in the mountain bike world are one of three basic forms:
1. Inline/Monotube, eg Fox's Float RP23/CTD/DPS series, Rockshox Monarch RT3 or X-Fusion O2
2. Single-tube (with separate or piggyback reservoir), eg DVO Jade, Fox RC4, BOS Stoy, Ohlins STX
3. Twin-tube (again with separate or piggyback reservoir), eg Cane Creek Double Barrel series (including the Inline), Ohlins TTX, Fox DHX2 and Float X2
The major defining difference between inline/monotube shocks and the single-tube type, as we're discussing them here, is that monotube shocks only have a single damper piston, and the IFP charge is the only thing providing pressure to force oil through the piston in compression. We won't be discussing those today. Single-tube types with a base valve (a second compression circuit usually mounted in the reservoir bridge, and which is usually the external compression adjustment) are a common configuration for mountain bike shocks. Twin-tube dampers are often visually similar to the single-tube dampers (CCDB Inlines being a notable exception) in terms of layout, but there are some differences.
This week on the Tuesday Tune, we're looking at what some of those differences are, where the twin tube concept came from and how the different layouts tend to behave as they currently exist.
MENTIONS:
@VorsprungSuspension
Edit: Well I guess it's not limited to Ohlins.
Ohlins claim on TTX 22M Universal: "The twin tube design allows the gas pressure to always backup the low-pressure side of the piston to keep pressure at a controlled level. This ensures consistent damping performance on all types of terrain and improves damping response to give outstanding control of the bike and tire movements."
Cane creek: "Exclusive Twin Tube Technology circulates oil continuously through the damping valving to achieve highly controllable, independent damping for both compression and rebound strokes. This unique design moves oil through externally adjustable valving instead of the main piston, allowing for superior tunability and eliminating the need for internal valving changes to achieve proper shock setup. "
What CC claims is objectively true in their description of how oil flows through the damper, but again whether it's "superior" or eliminates the need for valving changes presumes that the shape of their damper curves and the obtainable characteristics are actually exactly what you want them to be. Given that Ohlins run quite a linear rebound curve (as touched on in the video) in the TTX across its range of adjustment, like many single tube shocks, they are realistically competing on a few factors:
1. Friction - they're good but a little stickier than the CCDB (comparing coil to coil)
2. Cavitation - not an issue in any stock shock currently available, save perhaps one from a particular French company
3. The specifics of the compression and rebound damping curves - this really is where the difference in performance come from, and the curves attained by Ohlins and CC are entirely achievable with a single tube shock IF the designer/builder deigned to construct and configure them that way.
4. Hysteresis - super important in road racing and largely unimportant in mountain bikes due to the very high velocities.
Hi, what do you think of reduced breakaway force as an advantage of twin-tube dampers? The lower oil pressure and (potentially) narrower shaft should result in a lower spring force from the damper and therefore a lower breakaway force (quite apart from the lower friction). Do you think this advantage is realistically measurable or significant?
Thanks!
However what you're hearing is not cavitation (which would be noticeable as a sudden harshness followed by a knock as it changes direction into rebound), it's the canary stuck in your shock
And nice haircut by the way!
I can understand the ohlins being more due too publicly more R&D however could you not say the same about the other companies its just there's is not as public if you know what i mean?!
And by no means am i an expert or have any knowledge of shocks whatsever, i can service one but that doesn't mean much
If you like twiddling with knobs get a Twin Tube design.
If you are set and forget get a Single Tube but tuned for your bike and riding style.
I guess the tuning of the single tube makes up for the price difference between them.
In the automotive world mono-tube seem to be marketed as an upgrade over twin-tube shocks (I'm thinking along the lines of Bilstein shocks/struts for a street car). What's different here? Is it just that the most basic twin-tube car shocks don't have the air/oil separated or is something else going on?
I'm currently running a Magura MX shock in my fully, which if I understand correctly is basically a scaled down shock Conti uses for lorries. A similar design is also being used by Porsche on certain cars, but I'm not sure if their version might use some addition oil damping. By your explanation it qualifies as a twin tube design as the damping fluid (air in this case) cycles in a single direction. Then again all compression damping is done by the shim stack in the main piston. It is basically three chambers with the outside two connected through the push rod. During the compression stroke the rolling lobe rolls up (so volume reduces there) and drives the push rod through the other chamber so volume reduces there too. The middle chamber expands hence the air goes through the shim stack. During the rebound stroke the air goes through a port back into the chamber with the rolling lobe. Downside of course is that damping is very limited, upside is that there is no friction and it doesn't need any maintenance.
I'm most interested in the one that uses the air chamber behind the IFP as the main spring. I forgot the brand, but you might recall it. What's your take on that one? Nearly as simple as the Magura MX shock I mentioned, equally limited adjustability but I heard it performs really well.
TL;DR version - because of the little details.
That's the line that mtb media have been regurgitating for years. Is it true?
One of these Tuesdays can you please do a segment on tuning tricks for lighter weight riders?
On the TTX, get the correct spring, HSC on one (open=1 closed 3) 10 clicks out of 16 for LSC. Rebound 3 of 6. And rear wheel is glued to the ground. About the only change I ever make is slow the rebound one click when I climb, or add one click of HSC for gondola type riding. I still want the Elevensix though...
Also, the reason Fox currently use twin tube dampers may or may not be related to them having poached a former Cane Creek employee to design the DHX2 and Float X2, since they don't make twin tube dampers in any of their other markets that I'm aware of
poaching talent is only a thing if you don't believe in free markets -the real question is did they violate any patents? every industry shares talent but just the fact they would want to hire someone to do a twin tube product tells me they either believe in the technology or at the very least they feel they have to have that product to be marketable or competitive-
- but what makes you feel like the stock setting and adjustment on the HSC was way too high?
you describe your self as mid pack pro - were you racing XC?
High-speed compression can spike pretty hard if the shock does not flow enough oil with the valving/damping design wide open. I call this maximum orifice flow. Basically if all the valves are as wide open as mechanically possible, any damping forces added by the orifice flow would be damping spikes. Main piston port flow, channels leading to/from the pop-off valves, valving/pop off travel, fluid friction, etc. The CCDB and Fox X2 had a high shaft speed "harsh" feel. As noted I did not pull apart the X2 to see if I could modify, but main piston flow improvements and lighter CST oil helped the CCDB a lot.
I placed 4th pro in my last enduro race last year. XC is not my thing at 200lbs and short legs haha.
I had both the high and low speed compression basically all the way open and it was still harsh, IMO.
It is very rare for someone over 200lbs to complain of too much HSC damping (yes I understand what HSC is)
generally the complaint is not enough or not enough noticeable difference in adjustment
basically what is happening is on an impact (the compression stroke) the shock is not moving fast enough for you to be comfortable or your wheel is not maintaining traction, right?
When I start to troubleshoot I usually find 3 things:
1) The air pressure / or spring rate is not set right (or preload) and one is too high (oversprung)
solution: reset pressure or spring rate to get proper sag (enduro and downhill guys want to do this standing up on the bike pedals)
2) LSC is too high and the rider is interrupting the pedal platform as a loss of suppleness or too much HSC
solution: open up the LSC adjuster
3) The bike just doesn't "feel right" usually because it doesn't feel like their old bike which was not setup right to begin with
solution: spend some time getting use to the correct tune, try doing a run and changing 1 adjuster 1 click - trial and error for several runs until optimal setting or track times acheived
For the average rider it is very hard to discern the difference between spring rate and HSC damping
Basically the spring (air or coil) should be doing the heavy lifting in the impact stoke - HSC is just adjusting the timing
If HSC spiking is truly the problem - Im thinking lighter weight oil would be the next step
Keep in mind -even with data aquisition tuned pro bikes, maximum comfort is not the same setting for maximum traction for racing - Does that all make sense?
I just looked you up and looks like you are in Central Oregon too!
Here is a vid of my little 5.5" travel 29er getting down Bachelor.
www.instagram.com/p/BJs1zw1DdVZ/?hl=en
Would I be better off getting a custom tuned single tube, or a twin tube that I could trial and error for a while until I get the proper set-up? Can you customize the valving for a twin tube? I weigh about 145-150 pounds and am looking to build a bit of an all-round, more dh oriented set up based on a 170mm chassis. I've been looking at a Push Elevensix(coil), and it's super appealing with the independently tune-able "lock out" or descend mode. This would be going on a 2013 Reign X, and a 2014 Fox 36 Talas with 180mm of travel.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Not sure where you're getting your info - the digressive HSR "claim" has been demonstrated on our dyno. It is the nature of any preloaded HS circuit that it is inherently digressive unless the circuit never opens. The CCDB and X2 poppets don't open as suddenly as some valves since they have tiny little shims on the nose of them to prevent flutter, but the digression is there and measurable nonetheless. Not opinion, just fact.
@thuren: even our little 3VS goes to four times that... as stock. With a bit of imagination it's not too hard to push things a little further with a few modifications, until you run into power limitations. For sure it's not as nice as an EMA or hydraulic dyno, but it gives you the vast majority of the useful information at a price that is orders of magnitude lower.
I don't "specialize" in bike shocks, but I imagine 10-40IPS is VERY helpful in verification of lower flow systems that are so helpful in the feel of bicycle and moto suspension.
I have been tuning off-road truck shocks since the crank dyno was the only way(unless you were Ohlins 10 years ago I think they were first right?), so I did not use them because they did not tell me anything. Doing the work and real verification was the only REAL way.
I have a coil cane creek double barrel with a nice ti spring on my dh bike and a fox van r on my freeride bike and the db coil feels nicer but i do wonder if the perceived benefit is more just a characteristic of the bike design itself eg dh bike empire ap1 and freeride bike commencal supreme fr. Does unsprung mass and linkage driven or not make a bigger performance variation than the shock used eg if i move the shocks over (if possible) would i still feel the same perceived better ride on the same bike as before or do shocks really make that much difference. I kinda always thought that you could fit a really nice top of the line shock into mid range bike and it would not be as good as a mid range shock on a top of the line frame (and by that i mean with better design layout rather than quality of material used etc). would you agree?
One additional issue of interest to me is any maintenance advantage inherent in one configuration vs. the other. Will a twin tube design retain optimum performance longer than a single-tube design due to the relaxed requirement on reservoir pressure?
Regarding maintenance - design/manufacturing quality has more to do with it than anything. Shocks with higher gas charge pressures actually typically last longer before the oil becomes aerated, counterintuitive though that may seem.
Is it worth putting money into this shock or should I go with something like a cane creek?
Basher Spitfire for what it's worth...
I think I'll definitely be sending you guys an email to see whats what. I also have a 2015 Fox 36 RC2 that could use some servicing and maybe some input from you guys. I currently run over 90psi in the fork and some people think that is way too high; I'm about 210-220lbs.
Thinking broadly here! We have LSC and HSC that are speed sensitive dampening/valves. Would their be any benefit of Low speed compression, medium speed compression and high speed compression ( and/or maybe ultra high speed compression). Simply more tuning to cater for the range of speed encountered on a track like Downhill for example or am I misunderstanding all of this?
For get about the difficulty of tuning for this question.
What is the purpose of the spring / poppet valve assembly that leads to the IFP chamber on the single tube design? I thought the primary purpose of the IFP was to keep the oil pressurized to prevent cavitation. Why have the extra stuff? Does it have something to do with compression adjustments?
You may have explained this in another video. If so I'd like to see it. Thanks!
The idea being that without somewhere for the oil to go, compression is impossible; With a large empty cavity for oil to flow into, compression is easy; Somewhere in between those extremes (an expandable area that variously resists expansion) you can control how easy it is to compress?
However, every little detail varies between those two shocks, so I'm not entirely sure whether you're asking a hypothetical "could you make this layout perform as well as that layout" or "does shock A with layout X work as well as shock B with layout Y". The answer to the first question, from a design standpoint is "similar enough that you couldn't tell the difference by feel", the answer to the second question is that they are constructed and valved in different ways that reflect the differing tuning philosophies that each company typically espouses.
Any chance in one of the upcoming Tues Tune episodes you can cover air shocks? Like the Vivid Air etc.
Cheers
This says it's a twin tube design: www.sram.com/rockshox/products/vivid-air-r2c.
Separating beginning and end stroke rebound looks sensible to me, to separate, grip/stability requirements(end stroke r.) with "over the bars from kicker" (begining stroker.)
May be I am completely wrong...