Bike Check: Keegan Wright's High Pivot Devinci Prototype

 High Pivot is so in right now.

 @Randy-Verified:

It's the long travel 29-er of 2021 LOL







 @Randy-Verified: Devinci should name it "Hansel". So hot right now.

 @Randy-Verified: you mean Wright now

 Guess I was right

 @Randy-Verified: dont you mean, High Pivot, SO HOT, SO HOT.

 @Randy-Verified: Agreed... off the topic... I thought it was a missed opportunity for @canfieldbikes brothers who should have made a high-pivot enduro considering they've had the Jedi for years... That was my favorite DH bike and would have loved for them to crossed that over into their enduro. and here everyone else is just jumping all over the high-pivot trend.

 Funny thing that it turns out revealing this was actually good for Devinci ... Since they are a bit late to the party, they now want a bit of display ...

 If (virtual) high pivot bikes are so exciting, makes me curious whether the Craftworks ENR bikes are popular down under. I understand they mostly cater to the Australian market but I always thought it was a cool bike. Yet I never heard much of them in the media (can only recall one single PB article when they released an updated model), but bikes released much later are getting so much more attention. Is it because these "spies" only spy on invitation, all expenses paid for?

 @vinay: I haven’t seen one, but always am interested in them. I’m not sure how many have been made They’re really interesting, my first full suspension bike was a craftworks back in 1998.

 @tonkatruck: No I think you were, Wright! haha

 @Afterschoolsports: Yeah, I think they're cool. I only know them from early this century but I've never seen them in real. I had some nice mail exchanges with them though, they're really friendly. I recall they had two full suspension bikes and one hardtail at the time, all really cool stuff. But when they came up with the ENR platform, PB wasn't paying attention but I always kept an eye on them and I thought it was really cool that they introduced the high pivot design into the enduro genre. I think Pinkbike still has a primarily North American focus (though they recently attracted more people from other continents too) but I was curious whether Craftworks is getting more attention in Australia.

 @vinay: I've only seen one and was interested in upgrading to a 29er. I think the dude who owns the patient/Craftworks doesn't have the money to get something started. The Craftworks looks a little unfinished IMO. My Kavenz is awesome btw

 @bikeflog:and no stock and 142mm rear end, puts alot of us off requiring an outdated rear wheel. Few guys running them as mullets.

 @vinay: I’ve been eyeing a Craftworks for a while (I live in Aus) because they look awesome and Aus bike companies are pretty rare. It would be nice to see them getting some international coverage as they where really early to the Hi Pivot Party or HPP. They are still pretty niche here is Aus but have their fans.
The owner is a top guy and really easy to chat too.

 @NickBit: Yeah, I don't know how it works with marketing and Pinkbike. Some brands are getting loads of attention, others and even the ones who are really early don't get any at all. I think Pinkbike is/was primarily North American focused and for instance when Specialized still held the FSR patent, other brands with similar suspension designs went unnoticed. And funnily when the patent expired suddenly all those (primarily German) brands got noticed as "new brands" who "suddenly started to design four bar linkage bikes". So yeah, that got me wondering whether you have some other (online) magazines down there who pay more attention to brands from there. I'm interested in a more complete picture. I recall back in 2005 when I was in New Zealand for a week (after a couple of weeks in Australia) I bought a magazine called New Zealand Mountain Bike Rider, showing Nathan Rankin shredding a bike called 2Stage with the linkage wrapped in neoprene. What happened inside (with two different shocks) wasn't revealed at that point. Now that's the cool stuff I would have missed otherwise. Rather read about that instead of about the latest 520% range cassette.

 @sethius: talk to Chris from Kavenz Australia you'll find him on Insta. He has a few frames coming into the country.

 Range vs Devinci vs Kavenz vs Forbidden vs Jekyl vs Deviate plus any others ??

 will be same as plus size tires, few years of hype and will remain or certain niche bikes

 @thebradjohns: Balfa?

 @thebradjohns: gt will be in the mix too

 Curious how much us mere mortals would notice the difference vs some of today’s already excellent suspension platforms

 @vp27: I cant speak to high pivot specifically but I went from a good horst link bike to a Revel Rascal with CBF and I feel like the initial rearward axle path is noticeable. The bike rides through rocks and roots where the horst link bike seemed to go over them. I know this is apples to oranges, but the first rooty descent I went down blew my socks off. It was a difference that a mediocre rider like me picked up immediately. I'll try a high pivot some day, but I can imagine I'll have my socks blown off once again.

 @thebradjohns: gt?

 @nickmalysh: doubt it.
The traditional designs are all sort of compromises around a less than ideal chainring location that is where it is due to the shape of a human.

 @thebradjohns: uhh COMMENCAL maybe?!

 @nickmalysh: I don't think it's quite the same. Plus tires had some upsides: more traction better roll over. But also had some very significant downsides vaugness, heavy, weak sidewalls, and easy to blow off rims. All these are far more noticeable if you're a faster more, advanced rider which is why plus tires are now only found on entry level bikes.

High pivot has obvious upsides and the downsides are fairly minimal. I don't think it will be the only suspension system out there, but it will still exist on plenty of high level mountain bikes. Unlike plus the downsides don't become more obvious as you get faster. In fact I would argue they get less obvious the faster you are.

 @hmstuna: plus size found niche on slow bikes with minimum travel, such as kids or beginning ht, etc;

Hight pivot will be in 160+ category, u cannot archive much of reward path on 120 bike and probably do not need to;

And majority of bike sales in 120-150 category

 @nickmalysh: sure I agree with you. I wouldn't call 160+ Enduro bikes and dh bikes niche. Even though they don't make up the majority of mid to high end mountain bike sales they are still a very sizeable percentage.

 @nickmalysh: yep and >=160mm travel bikes are a clear market trend right now as engineers have made them more manageable for all round usage. My 130mm bike that I take on six hour rides, I wouldn’t be willing to deal with the idler drag. My long travel bike that goes up a fire road or gentle climb path, then blasts down a technical trail, is a different story.

 @nickmalysh: I agree. Its so simple that if it really was the best thing ever, literally everyone would be doing it by now, and would have been for a while. No doubt that it is pretty good (rode a dreadnought and a wilson and loved them both) but definitely has drawbacks. I think the more traditional stuff (dw, horst, single pivot) will stick around longer tbh.

 The reason why high pivots weren’t a thing widely in the past is because 1x drive trains weren’t practical outside of DH until recently.

 @vp27: you would with a proper rearward path, the question is will you like it ? I had a Suprem v4 which was great when going through rough shit but bad in the steep (stupid small reach didn't help) and ultra strenuous on anything with medium to tight turns. The new Fury was much better in this regard. But those are DH bikes, do I want this on my everyday bike ? Not sure.

 @Boondocker390: I think having some rearward path is really good like you mentioned but having all or most of it rearward on a trail bike is not a good idea since you will need a pulley rendering pedaling much less efficient and also all rearward means very sluggish bikes if not riding rock gardens at full speed but cornering instead. Those will probably be great for EWS racers that basically ride WC DH tracks with no jumps or some Park rats but anything else I would argue against even though I'd love to get the new GT.

 @Balgaroth: I wonder whether they're harder to manual as the rear end stretches out as you load it. Just wondering, I honestly have never ridden one.

 @Balgaroth: my 2014 GT Force was a high pivot, they just achieved it with the crazy path link instead of an idler.

 @L0rdTom: Fair enough, in a way it is true that the axle path with respect to the front triangle is indeed that of a high pivot bike. Difference of course is that the largest weight (the rider) is on the bottom bracket which partially moves along with axle. But yeah it probably performs as some middle ground between a high pivot bike like a Trek Session 10, K9 industries or Balfa and a "regular" full suspension bike (as long as we call these "regular"). Mongoose (Freedrive) and something from Schwinn (not sure what the system was called) did something similar to GT. Which makes sense as they're under the same umbrella.

 @L0rdTom: In which world ? Main pivot is barely above the top of a 36t ring, by no mean that bike was HP, I had the 2018 version which I loved but it wasn't HP. Links below the seat tubes are just to improve rear end rigidity and can be removed link on all the rentals in Whistler.

@vinay: the V4 was a dog to manual or make turn tight, the new Fury isn't nearly as bad for this which makes it more versatile and better for regional racer or bike park rider in my opinion.

 @Boondocker390: Revel/CBF doesn't have an appreciably rearward axle path. It's not a Jedi....

 Corsair Maelstrom !!!

 @Bwoltz: GT force redesign will be a 170mm high pivot design also.

 @thebradjohns: Cannondale....a lot of brands are "high on pivot" these days ;-).

 @Balgaroth: obviously high pivot is not a digital thing, realistically any pivot placement that's high enough above the chainring that it requires a solution for the chain growth is a high pivot. How far each brand takes that is up to them.

What links were you removing on a force??
They were all integral on my 2014 bike.

@Vinay yeah it's obviously not quite the same as there is a small amount of BB movement too, but it definitely felt great on square hits and makes me intrigued by the newer crop of bikes like the druid.

 @L0rdTom: My bad I read Fury 2014 instead of force -_- so yes rather HP indeed and i can imagine it riding quite well with such pivot placement. When you look at the new Norco Range it is basically the same with an iddler to take care of the chain growth instead of i-drive system. People hated i-drive but the last iterations were easy to service if needed and were riding very well. They probably should have renamed the system to avoid having people thinking about first gens with the mad BB parts.

 That's my favourite look for sure.

 but how will they hide the blemishes and carbon patches!

 no thanks

 Doesn't the epoxy turn yellowish when exposed to UV radiation? I'd vote for RAL6001 (John Deere green).

 Totally agree, raw carbon and raw alloy for that matter is the best, no paint chips either. although that isn't what devinci have done here, it seems to be a wrap, the inside of the rocker is silver suggesting it's metal but the inside of the frame below the shock is also uncovered and silver, but it doesnt look like an alloy frame, no obvious welds and a shape that would be much easier in carbon so maybe they have painted it silver then wrapped it just to mess with us further.

 @senorbanana: by wrapping the whole thing in a vanity layer - job jobbed

 Some of the Trek road bikes with raw and painted accents are so subtle and pretty. You don’t realize it has raw carbon due to the directional carbon until you get up close and then it does some fun things in the sunlight.

 @BikesBoatsNJeeps: Yeti does a raw carbon option as well. Transition used to (at least my Vanquish came that way) but it doesn't look like it's an option on any of their current models. I love it. Subtle enough to not be overly eye-catching at first glance. But like you said, when the light catches it just right, it looks really nice. How many people can legit say that their bike looks better to the rider than to the passer-by?

 I agree, but laying up carbon with aesthetics in mind is a different ball game and would increase labour significantly. Carbon fiber car parts for example typically prioritize aesthetics as looks are just as important as weight saving (and aerodynamics if even applicable), and body panels are a much simpler layup.

Easy Composites has a great Youtube series on carbon fiber layup that details structure, aesthetics, and even shows a prototype downhill frame being fabricated start to finish if you're interested in seeing what goes into it.

Discoloration from resin oxidation is certainly an issue but can be reduced with UV resistant clear coats. Also probably less of an issue for bikes than cars since many cars live outdoors 24/7 while most bike get to reside indoors when not in use.

 @vinay: I see you’re a fellow man of culture

 @maxxx: im not sure you need to prioritise aestetics and add cost, i think the uneven nature of a carbon layup is quite beautiful in a raw industrial kind way, check out the layers on dangerholms striped down genius, gorgeous and add a glossy clear coat and it's just stunning, especially in the sun.
www.instagram.com/p/COYWTiwBuf-

 @maglor: Exactly this. The look that @BikesBoatsNJeeps was talking about is because the layup is not overly neat. It's the unexpected little flashes you get from one sheet or another catching the light just right that looks so good. My bike is just dark gray with blacked out graphics. Then the sun picks up a random bit of the CF material and that's when you realize it's not paint.

 Classic!

 This was my very first thought. Having shredded those cranks first hand.

 Yeah I broke two sets of em. Surprised he’s not running the sixc

 @stormracing: sixc are still pretty breaky...

 @englertracing: oh for sure! About to swap mine out on the DH bike cuz I don’t want to risk another broken set of cranks but I was just saying those because of sponsorship obligations for him

 @stormracing: junk right? I rib my buddies that ride that stuff "oh you have the mongoose cranks"

 I’ve had them on 3 bikes with zero trouble.

 @onemanarmy: neat and I replaced 3 sets of six c cranks on a guys dh bike... he's not fast, aggressive, or heavy

 @englertracing: sucks.


Should be able to pull off one of those 3.

 I would understood that 10 y ago with shittie sus , however now with modern shocks and DW/VPP/KS and other nailed designs, pedaling platform it looks quite overcomplicating to improve 4 bar / single pivot

 Ride one and you'll see.

 @nickmalysh: I very much prefer the ride characteristics of my high piviot bike to the vpp of my previous bikes.

 It certainly won’t be less maintenance

 The beta guys tested it and said it came out at 1%. Something that’s likely worth tolerating if you prize descending over mega efficient climbing (though I actually like the rearward axle path on climbs too - it gets back and over ledgy climbs very easily without having to hump the bike forward). Most aren't likely to notice 1%. That said, if it’s an all day epics bike you’re after, it might not be the one but you’re perhaps also making other compromises anyway.

 When it’s clean, my Druid doesn’t feel any different to any other bike. But when it’s dirty, holy crap, it’s noticeable.

 @Unrealityshow: chainwax the sh*t out of the idler and the chain, it will be good when dirty too

 According to this test Beta did...1.3-ish percent drag...so basically negligible.

www.betamtb.com/bike-tests/enduro/long-term-test-is-the-forbidden-dreadnought-inefficient

 @MikeyMT: Since that's content is members-only and I ain't a member: did they test it in the mud? Videos I've seen make me think Beta is based somewhere dry. Here in the PNW there's plenty of mud, and my standard drivetrain feels super draggy and sounds like shit when it gets muddy. Cant' imagine adding a couple idlers to the mix wouldn't make this a lot worse.

 @Drew-O: Yea they tested in Colorado so dry conditions. Im no math wiz but seems like all else being equal mud gunks shit up no matter the drivetrain so the 1.3 ish % thing holds up? WHo knows...

From the article:

So, with almost 15,000 feet of comparable climbs on the Dreadnought and the Ransom, how much harder was it to climb on the Dreadnought? On average, 01.13 percent. That’s it. Below is an example of a 1,750-vertical-foot climb, and how it compares on the Dreadnought (top image) and my Ransom (bottom image). It only took 12 more kilojoules to get the Dreadnought up to that peak than my Ransom. That’d have gotten me a whole extra 24-foot head start on that hour-long climb. Once I put this together, I went on a last loop on the Dreadnought before I sent it back to Forbidden. Having proved to myself that my assumptions about significant drivetrain drag were 98.87 percent bullshit, I had a relatively quick-feeling 7,000-foot ride without hitting a wall.

 @mate1998: i'm also a wax convert. for me, it seems the best solution in all conditions. not sure why it hasn't taken over the chain lube/wax market...

 Careful, it may not even be rideable any more.

 @chakaping: OK Thanks, megatower for sale if someone is interested

 @pasteque51: hightower WITHOUT a high pivot? Thats so last year....

 See the Commencal prototype:

www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-amaury-pierrons-prototype-commencal-supreme-enter-the-matrix.html

 Canfield brothers

 Craftworks ENR: www.craftworkscycles.com/pages/what-is-i-track-suspension

 Ghost had a high pivot horst link years ago

 @bicyclelifestyle: the commencal is still a horst style four bar (I believe they call it six bar). I was thinking more of a short link/solid triangle design a-la VPP or DW. Looks like that craftwerks is exactly what I was curious about. Thanks @boozed , that bike looks awesome.

 @Trudeez: Canfield jedi

 It's just a single pivot though. The wheel path is dictated by the chainstay exclusively, with the seatstay and rocker controlling the shock. The instant center is fixed at the chainstay pivot.

 @emarquar: yup my bad didn't look the dropout

 I reckon that has more to do with the rear pivot design. Trek Slash ABP and the Spesh Enduro were always my favorites in bad braking bumps, but they traded that tracking ability for some snappiness that let’s say Ibis DW has. I’ve always leaned either way depending on my local terrain and how rocky it is.

 @SvenNorske: It's more axle path that has me confused. I don't really understand how you get a rearward axel path without enormous brake jack.

 @Linc: I've been riding a Druid since last August and I haven't noticed the brake jack. All of my prior bikes were horst link.

 @Linc: the idler pulley negates it some. Pull away one corner of a triangle and then pull away one corner of a rectangle. The resulting change in the other angles in each shape differs a fair bit. Curious to try one out. Seems like I’ll be able to try a few out now

 Can you describe the sensation of "brake jack" that you felt?
Or can you explain what rear braking was making the suspension do?

 @riderseventy7: sit on bike. Lock front and rear brakes. Try compress suspension. Good linkage should still compress. Rear axel path on old high pivots meant completely locked suspension under braking.

 @Linc: Uh huh. *But you'll only get that when stationary and with the front and rear brakes locked solid.
When riding on the trail the bike and the wheels aren't stationary and move independently of each other, even when the brakes are locked. Then, in addition to direction of travel, you have other factors like brake dive, traction and pedal kick back etc affecting things.
**Under braking the main difference in behavior between HSP vs multilink is that the HSP rear suspension will squat more as the braking forces acting on the tyres contact patch "pulls the tyre backwards", causing the suspension to use some of its travel. That very fact there demonstrates that the suspension isn't completely locked.
That extra squat in the rear isn't all bad though, because while braking you will get brake dive induced geometry changes at the front of the bike. As multilink rear suspension stays higher under braking it means the front geometry is more affected, steepening the head angle more for eg, as well as pitching the rider forward more. Meanwhile the extra rear brake squat of the HSP helps preserve the front geo under brakes, the front will still dive, but the rear being lower means the head angle isn't affected quite as much. So you could say 1 setup has "a good rear and poor front" while the other has "a good front and poor rear".

I have struggled to understand what riders meant when they said they felt brake jack, particularly because I can't say I've experienced it myself, even though I've been looking for it. Some made it sound like the rear compressed to the point there was little to no travel left to deal with bumps, some suggested it wouldn't compress at all, some said it would compress but not rebound when braking, and others said the forces of the caliper clamping the spinning brake disc alone would cause the suspension to compress or chatter.
Your explanation is the best and least subjective that I have heard by far, with an excellent example/experiment. But I do disagree, from what I've experienced, seen in slo-mo videos, and from the math (that others have done, not me) I just can't see that it's a thing.

*I have done exactly what you suggest on my Zerode G2. Bouncing on it with the brakes locked will still compress the rear suspension because as the fork compresses the frame will move forward which allows the rear room to move. I did just try it with someone holding the fork up so it won't compress, though, and found the rear didn't want to compress without the tyre sliding back, however that is not something that would happen on the trail.
I guess you could say its like the X15, not that great when stationary, however once it's moving it's damn fast.

 For real. Did they all get a memo to make a high pivot? The last three enduro bike articles on PB were high pivot.

 preach !

 That's what I was calling too, hah!

 Forbidden ziggy link and head goes boom.

 mean SA, look slacker then 90

 @rafallied: "...but the best part is the way they've decided to make fun of us, the spy-shot-hungry media."

 @FloImSchnee: I got that in first place

they didn't release bike with step SA so far