How British & European Bike Brands Are Adapting to the Brexit Trade Deal

Jan 7, 2021 at 13:19
by Alicia Leggett  
Cotic's full suspension bikes, which are sourced from both the UK and Taiwan, are not for sale in Europe until further notice.

The last time Pinkbike covered British trade, the clock was ticking for the UK and the EU to figure out how to avoid a no-deal Brexit. Now, an agreed trade deal, signed into law less than 24 hours before it took effect, has left companies scrambling to adapt. The deal prevents the imposition of tariffs on some British and European goods and helps mitigate the abrupt fall out of the EU that seemed imminent for Britain, but some companies are still splitting hairs to figure out whether their exports benefit from any protection from tariffs.

The deal eliminates tariffs on European and British goods that would have applied if the EU and the UK defaulted to using the World Trade Organization rules in a No Deal Brexit, but non-European and non-British products are not protected, so some companies have found themselves in the awkward position of figuring out what it means to make a British or a European product.

Cotic, a UK bike company, has suspended sales to EU customers until they sort things out. Cotic designs, engineers, and tests their bikes in the UK. Much of their building and machining happens in the UK, however, linkages and some rear triangles are built in Taiwan. Are those bikes British? It’s complicated.

Under the new trade deal, products have to contain a certain percentage of materials or the more esoteric “value” from the UK or the EU to be considered British or European, respectively. Cotic, in a statement on its website, wrote that the company is trying to figure out just what that means, and in the meantime, has halted sales of those mixed-origin bikes to customers in the EU. If Cotic designs bikes in Britain, manufactures parts of the frames in Taiwan, and assembles them in Britain, the exact origin of those bikes is tough to define.

bigquotesThe upshot of all this is that for this week at least and maybe longer, and until we know exactly what the duty situation is, we are not shipping anything to customers in the EU. We want to give ourselves time to understand and apply the new rules correctly, and then be able to explain them to customers. There will be increases in shipping prices as well due to the couriers having to clear products through customs now, so once we have all the costs understood, we will be in touch to agree any cost increases with you.Cotic Bikes

Update Jan. 12 2021: Cotic has resumed shipping to customers in the EU and has posted an update about about import duty that will be applied to some of its bikes.

Nukeproof, designed and based in Belfast, Northern Ireland, has declared that its bikes do not qualify as European products. The company wrote in a Facebook post that it had to increase the suggested retail prices for their bikes, thanks to tariffs imposed on non-European goods.

2021 Nukeproof Mega
Nukeproof has decided its products do not meet the requirements to avoid tariffs, so it has increased SRPs.

The post read:

A large proportion of Nukeproof bikes are assembled in European factories and our hope was that a trade deal would allow these bikes to pass between the EU and our UK warehouse tariff free.

Unfortunately, the new UK-European trade deal only allows tariff free trade on products that have either an EU or UK origin. To achieve an EU origin at least 55% of the value of the complete product must be manufactured in either the UK or the EU.

In the case of Nukeproof, because most of the bike's value, e.g. frame and components, are manufactured in Asia, the complete bike is not classified as a European product (even if the bike is assembled in Europe). Our bikes, therefore, attract additional import duties between Europe and our UK warehouse. Combining this with price increases with rising raw materials, labour and current exchange rates we have already seen, it leaves us with little option but to increase our SRP's.

Whilst we have always tried to fend off unnecessary/ unwanted in-season pricing restructures in the past, these are unavoidable costs in unprecedented times, and we are forced to reflect the update with immediate effect.

We understand these are difficult times for many of our riders and we truly appreciate your support and understanding.

Kind Regards,

The Nukeproof Team

As previously reported, YT and Canyon face similar problems, with bikes designed and assembled in Germany but manufactured in Asia. YT has announced likely price increases, while Canyon has temporarily paused shipments to the UK. Rose Bikes, also German, had a pop-up on its website as of Dec. 21 stating that the company was unable to fulfill orders from the UK, but the pop-up has since disappeared. Given that Rose had previously stopped selling to the UK, citing laws that dictate on which side each brake lever should be installed, the company seems unlikely to resume UK sales.

Not even British companies selling goods within Britain itself are immune. Brooks England has made their saddles domestically at their Smethwick factory since 1882, but the company has been owned by Italian manufacturer Selle Royal since 2002, and they ship all their saddles to Italy for distribution – even the saddles that will end up right back in the UK.

In a notice published on its website, the company wrote, “At Brooks England, we continue to produce each leather saddle in our West Midlands factory in more or less the same manner as we have for over 150 years. However, upon their completion, since some time these saddles are shipped first to our logistics centre and from there to Cyclists around the world. Due to this, the ongoing changes in the Brexit situation have made it necessary to temporarily suspend all new orders from brooksengland.com to the UK at this time.” However, Brooks' UK distributor Extra UK clarified that this only applies to customers buying directly from Brooks' website and that it will continue to deliver product to Brooks dealers.

Campagnolo, bike-discount.de, and other companies have also paused distribution to the UK while the situation remains in flux.


321 Comments

  • 249 29
 "How British and European Bike Brands are Trying to Adapt Following Idiots Shooting Themselves in the Foot".

Fixed it.
  • 90 19
 The turkeys who voted for christmas got what they deserved on new year. Unfortunately they brought with them all the beef (scottish), pork(remainer english), chicken(children u16), lamb(remainer Welsh) and innocent veggie option nut roasts(nutters).
  • 43 11
 @browner: Both of our comments. 1 downvote = 1 gammon
  • 58 15
 "How British and European Bike Brands are Trying to Adapt Following Some Of The British People Being Convinced Into Shooting Themselves in the Foot By Those With Nefarious Intentions".

Fixed it more.
  • 16 1
 @getonyourbike: murcia & canadia 'what's a Gammon?'
  • 29 4
 I swear politician's only goal is to get into office and screw things up. It's as if all the world leaders are mates and have bets to see who can make their respective country hell and still get re-elected.
  • 4 0
 @Shred-BC: The goal for many is power and profit...
  • 4 5
 @justanotherusername: only 50% of the people bud
  • 4 0
 @bombdabass: like I said ‘some of the people’
  • 2 2
 @Shred-BC: Pretty close.
They are not just mates, they are part of the brotherhood.
  • 10 2
 @bombdabass: Only 26% of the people actually...
  • 27 9
 I did the maths on a Canyon bike the other day out of curiosity to work out what the customs mark up was since they dont publish it on their site.

www.canyon.com/en-gb/road-bikes/race-bikes/ultimate/ultimate-cf-slx-9.0-di2/2408.html

£7349 inc VAT

If you go to the very bottom of the footer you can change your region to Germany.

€6799 inc 19% German VAT = €5720 ex VAT = £5173 at this weeks exchange rate.

Now add 20% UK VAT = £6207

So theres over a grand (18%) been lumped onto the price purely for 'customs' and 'disbursements', plus there's still shipping to add. I doubt very much they'd try and make money out of this, that'd make them even more uncompetitive. Its just nuts, and all in the name of 'sovereignty' (racism).
  • 8 0
 @oatkinso: that 18% makes sense an I was watching an XTR shifter on Ebay, new years literally over night it went from free postage to £18 postage an also 'price subject to +20%'
  • 5 0
 14% duty is most of that 18%.
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: did that apply prior to Jan 1st?
  • 11 11
 @getonyourbike: should we tollerate the use of a derogatory term based on an individuals appearance? Political allegiance aside it's not cool to hate on someone for being pink. Just saying.
  • 11 24
flag lewisa10 (Jan 8, 2021 at 10:10) (Below Threshold)
 @fielonator: ok boomer
  • 2 6
flag Jaks5 (Jan 8, 2021 at 10:15) (Below Threshold)
 @bombdabass: Sorry but wow are you naive. You've been fed a line and you swallowed it whole
  • 9 8
 @lewisa10: I'm not sure what that means, I'll down vote just in case.
  • 2 0
 @oatkinso: I'm from the UK, if I bought a bike from a UK brand e.g. nukeproof, whyte etc, are prices increases happening in this type of situation?
  • 4 0
 @Jim9792: well from the article above it sounds as if UK brands like those you mentioned will have to increase their prices for the EU market unless they can can get a ‘made in UK’ stamp of approval. In cotics case it sounds like they have a good argument since most of the bike is manufactured here, but not so for whyte. I would imagine they would have separate pricing for their domestic market though.
  • 4 10
flag 8tom8 (Jan 8, 2021 at 10:57) (Below Threshold)
 @fielonator: a “boomer” is a derogatory term for an old frail weak elderly person.
  • 3 0
 @oatkinso: Not from the EU no. German bikes would have 19% VAT and nothing else. Now they'll have 34% added at the UK border (but no german VAT).
  • 3 0
 @oatkinso: I would say Cotic will be just fine using the 55% rule - Nukeproof and others though are screwed, as are any other brand having stuff made in Taiwan and selling from the EU to UK or vice versa, Canyon, YT etc etc...

I didn’t even consider the rules of origin factor in movement of product - Is it therefore correct that unless you make your product in the EU or UK you fall outside of the tariff free arrangement and duty is charged - so that’s 14% on bikes 4% on parts? - that’s huge if so.
  • 4 2
 @Shred-BC: Your two downvotes (as of now) shows that at least two politicians are reading this thread, whilst being paid to sit at home as a "Public Servant"
  • 1 0
 Vitus seems to be keeping their bike prices low for now. Is it because they are located in N. Ireland or just the fact that they are a direct-to-consumer business model?
  • 2 0
 @tacklingdummy: Being direct to consumer doesn’t change the rules of origin issue, if that is the issue here - Cotic are direct to consumer as are Canyon after all.

Not sure about the N Ireland thing though....
  • 2 0
 @justanotherusername: yeah I’m not too sure on that, I haven’t read into the actual agreements but it sounds like this is the case. What does 55% constitute?

I used to work for a well known UK outdoors clothing and equipment manufacturer. They sold sleeping bags; the shells were made in China, the down was from Hungary and they were filled and stitched ready for sale at the headquaters in the UK. They successfully argued for a ‘made in UK’ label. I’d be interested what it takes in order to obtain this label as I wasn’t party to the conversations.
  • 1 0
 @oatkinso: Interesting to see and thanks for that. I'd like to see how much they bumped prices from 2020 to 2021 for the UK. It may have had a slightly higher price than Germany/EU to begin with.
  • 4 0
 @oatkinso: I believe it’s 55% of value added. So the Cotic frame sounds OK until you add things like rear shock, plus linkage and rear end I suppose things get close.

Essentially full bikes may all now eligible for tariffs, even a UK orange if the build kit is more than 45% of the value, not to mention raw material as that will be from overseas too.

Seems like this is huge and about as far from a FTA as you can get - clothes, electricals, anything made outside of uk / EU and imported for resale between the two is eligible for tariffs now.
  • 1 0
 @powderturns: yeah tbf I don’t know what the prices were prior to jan 1st but surely it should’ve just been Net plus country Vat plus any transaction exchange fee; there’s no way this would’ve been 18% of the total though.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: so is value determined in terms of money added? Not volume, weight etc.

The chickens are coming home to roost.
  • 3 0
 @oatkinso: there seems to be a number of criteria but most black and white is more than 55% of value coming from UK source, that includes raw material costs which are almost always from overseas in origin.

Bang on, shits going to hit the fan.
  • 3 0
 @tacklingdummy: yeah this is where it gets complicated. Northern Ireland is still in the single market for now unlike the rest of the U. K. . So nukeproof, vitus and any other CRC brands won't have to add the tariff if they ship from Asia to N.I
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: That is my point. Looks like there are companies that are likely incurring tariffs, but still keeping prices low. Curious to the reasons. Direct-to-consumer cuts a lot of costs, so perhaps they are able to absorb the tariff costs better to not raise prices. Or maybe N. Ireland doesn't have the incurred tariffs or cost of doing business in N. Ireland is much cheaper. Complicated issue because many different factors can affect the costs.
  • 2 1
 @tacklingdummy: Part of my day job is non bicycle direct sales of product - rules are rules and it doesn’t matter how you sell the product in terms of duty to be paid.

The NI thing could be interesting as Briain says things get complicated there and as we know CRC have warehousing out there.

There is also a lot of confusion still so some companies just haven’t got to the point of discussing the charges up front, e.g. you may order the product and pay no more for it until it arrives at your country and you are stung with tariffs etc.
  • 1 0
 @Jim9792: yes because they are not classed as U.K. products because the frames and most of the components are made in Asia
  • 2 0
 @tacklingdummy: Direct-to-consumer cuts a lot of costs also increases margin at the point of manufacture, which is a significant aid to crossing the %age of parts line.
  • 1 1
 @benpinnick: Though I am sure you have looked into this in greater detail than me - I don’t see how almost any frame imported into the UK from say Taiwan and then sold on into the EU as a full bike after just being assembled here could ever be considered as a UK Made unless you go out of your way to build with UK components, even then it will take some thought to be achievable and be an expensive build.

None of the mainstream stuff comes even close, even if built with European brand parts most of them are still made in Taiwan etc originally.
  • 4 0
 @justanotherusername its been for us a process over the whole of 2020 to get our ducks in a row. We can't sell bikes like we do today, so there will be a new section of our site with EU only bikes (in Euro) delivered duty paid into the EU. We're going to probably take a hit on the margins to keep the pricing in check with the additional UK/EU content, but thats OK. Its better to make 80% of what we did on a growing business, than 100% of a rapidly diminishing one.

We're on a long journey and have significant price drops ahead of us as we up our volumes with the big suppliers, so while we will have a short term squeeze on margin in the EU, we can make that back by hitting those next targets through maintaining our growth. As those new pricing tiers kick in our EU bikes will return to normal margins (as well as reducing our EU required parts value) and our UK bikes get more profitable.
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: Good stuff - all the best with it.
  • 2 5
 @getonyourbike: calling people silly owen jones esque slurs doesn't add gravitas to your statement, its peurile.
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: Great explanation with lots of insider knowledge. You must have a significant role in the industry.
  • 51 2
 How did no one see this coming?!

Oh, wait...
  • 73 7
 At least when the Americans voted idiotically, it could be changed after 4 years.
  • 18 7
 @iian: In the United States we get a new idiot every 4 years. Intelligent Americans that have common sense stay out of politics unfortunately.
  • 23 0
 @Esmond: The fact we've had multiple generations over decades, where the majority stays out of politics/voting process, is how we got into this situation where we must choose between turd sandwiches and douches.
  • 3 0
 @iian: It won't ever be the same though
  • 8 1
 @iian: @iian: our entire election is a joke now. control the narrative you control the world.
  • 5 0
 Some did but the rich people convinced the poorer people they would be better off ! Conned again !
  • 3 1
 @Jamminator: More people follow politics more than ever in history, we live in a time that people are more into what we can get instead how can we help other people. Our politicians have manipulated us to be against each other and not focus how can we work together for the greater good. Both sides are equally at fault. This is what the majority of Americans would love to see. There are great ideas on both sides that can help us all, there are also a lot of bad ideas on both sides.
  • 1 1
 @Esmond: following someone on twitter doesn't mean following politics. Pretty sure most Americans, including some of those involved in "politics" don't even know the meaning of the word, nor understand the main political philosophies/ideologies etc

Turns out neglecting education is not a good thing, hopefully the rest of the world gets it
  • 2 1
 @Matt115lamb: the greatest con of the modern left is rich people convincing poor people that the people in private sectors are evil and greedy but the government is pure and altruistic. And hence we have another career criminal old white guy in the house.
  • 2 1
 @TotalAmateur: he has to be better than the last one ?
  • 1 0
 @TotalAmateur: the greatest con of the right is for poor people to vote for small gov and lower taxes because one day they MIGHT be rich lol
  • 3 0
 @Matt115lamb: you don't have to be wealthy to want less government involvement in your economic process, I think the current backlash against the draconian and hypocritical lockdowns are evidence of that. And furthermore consolidating socioeconomic power within the government is how to get political systems like Russia where the only way to be "successful" is to be a member of the inner circle.

And no, Trump may have been a bit of a troll and an egomaniac but Biden is quite literally a dysfunctional old man who has a history of racism, plagiarism, and wholesale corruption by using his position for personal gain. He is a mouthpiece for private interests (which most politicians are) without any redeeming qualities that might take us away from our current system of total bipartisan private interest lobbying. He's just a return to the normal status quo of "keep washington people in washington who know the game, don't bring anyone in who might disturb the natural order"
  • 1 0
 @TotalAmateur: I’m also a total amateur in us politics however I see Biden and his team so far will be better for you than trumps criminal gang . Time will tell !
  • 1 0
 @Matt115lamb: Hey I'm all for the betterment of American lives and values, so I wish him and his team the best! BUUUUUT, I feel like I know how it's going to go.
  • 48 2
 If any non UK people wonder why Britain voted for this, its because we singlehandedly won two world wars and then won a football match against the Germans. We also invented sarcasm, queing, tutting amd gammon.
  • 8 1
 scruff0772 your forgot to mention double decker buses, strawberries and cream, Wimbledon, Henry cooper and we get back blue passports!!!
  • 15 56
flag tonyplanet (Jan 8, 2021 at 10:36) (Below Threshold)
 ... and lost the revolutionary war and the war of 1812. And probably be speaking German if US didn't intervene WWII.
  • 10 0
 @nukedchipp: (blue passports made in France)
  • 46 0
 @tonyplanet:
I fear you may not quite have understood the subtlety of this particular post
  • 8 30
flag tonyplanet (Jan 8, 2021 at 11:34) (Below Threshold)
 @malcolm-eggs: I understand the subtlety of this post. Just commented for entertainment purposes. We have our own issue in the US, a mad man inciting insurrection of our very own government.
  • 13 4
 @tonyplanet: probably be speaking Russian and by "intervene" do mean the US stopped selling equipment to the Germans

Any way you've got enough issues to deal with over that side of the pond.

Enjoy the rest of the year
  • 15 0
 @malcolm-eggs: subtlety is usually not what define americans Wink
  • 6 0
 @tonyplanet: umm the US didn’t really win the War of 1812, the peace treaty restored the staus quo ante bellum. I think the Brits were more concerned about Napoleon at that point. I often wonder if Europe and the world would have been better of had the US not become involved in WW 1. Both sides would have to have come to a peace treaty as they were both in bad shape. Probably would have avoided WW 2.
  • 2 4
 @tonyplanet: I find it hilarious that someone who came out and immediately called for the rioters to go home and that we must have "peace despite our emotions" can still be said to be inciting an insurrection. Some people will literally accuse you of being alive and well as your corpse rots in front of them lol.
  • 53 14
 NEVER forget, only one third of the populace voted leave an the Gov called that a majority in a non legally binding gauge of public opinion. The people wanted this is the biggest lie since weapons of mass destruction, and just like the calls for blair an Bush to be behind bars there will be call for farage and may/johnson to be behind bars when the true cost of brexshit comes to light
  • 13 70
flag BMXrad (Jan 8, 2021 at 9:13) (Below Threshold)
 Suck it up buddy hahaahaha
  • 50 3
 @BMXrad: Ah, the old "suck it up, we won". You treasure that bullet wound. Well done.
  • 44 5
 Yep the ol we won you lost mentality of the dumb FK brexshiteer, too fkng dumb to realise it's not a footy match. We ALL loose.....
  • 6 0
 Unless of course, sarcasm¿
  • 7 1
 I mean if you got screwed and really cared about it then you lock down the country with strikes and protests until the governments back off. Those won't don't say a word agree.
  • 11 0
 It would be great if people in the UK had that sort of introspection, if after a year or two we took stock and decided whether this was a good move or not. By that I do mean we at least give it a go and not over-react to the immediate logistical problems. It's more likely that larger media outlets, owned by foreign free-marketeers will continue to provide reasons for division with Europe, we'll effectively end up blaming the EU if the effects of Brexit are not positive. History will be written by the victors and all that shit.
  • 1 0
 @Steventux: taking stock of the situation is an irrelevance as we aren't ever going to be able to "buy back in" on anything like the deal we had before we left.
  • 1 0
 @Erskine-Atom: I guess it is something Brits ´ever realized, but all other europeans k'ew that UK had the most cutsomized, cherry picked membership in the EU and yet you spat on it. So at least if (when ?) you decide to stop playing alone in your corner this time you will have a standard membership like any other European country. Meanwhile good luck and have fun lol
  • 1 0
 @Balgaroth: Yes, yes we did... but sections of media dubbed that concern 'project fear'. And I can only refer to my above statement.....
Only one third of the country's populace voted leave... Gov did what they wanted regardless. Brexshit is NOTHING to do with the will if the people
  • 22 1
 Went to buy some forks from bike-discount.de yesterday (as rockshox are always about 25% cheaper than anywhere in UK, and they have stock unllike anyone in UK.

Went to put them in my basket, website says “not for sale in your country due to legal reasons”.

Thanks Boris you tw@t!
  • 5 0
 Ouch! That gotta hurt! Maybe you can dry your tears with the knowledge that your fish is protected? ????
  • 4 0
 @Isey:
Yea we might be making our own forks out of swordfish bones at this rate.

You know your country has hit 3rd world status when you can’t buy any bike parts and you’re passport is worth jack sh1t.
  • 19 3
 Is it just me or does it strike anyone else as environmentally irresponsible to build a saddle in the UK to ship to Italy and then ship back to the UK for sale. Brookes can sell the 'made in uk' bit as hard as they like but to some of us reading this we will only hear 'Brookes doesnt care about the environment'.
  • 14 0
 Its not actually quite like that. Its only the stuff they sell direct from their website that gets shipped from Italy. If you buy from a UK vendor you'll be buying a saddle that went from their factory, to Extra UK their UK distributor, to the bike shop/webshop. It never left the country.

I suspect thats probably 99% of their UK sales.
  • 13 1
 " British made means British jobs which I for one fully support, even if it means paying a little bit more for some better quality stuff."
Just looked at your profile and couldn't help but notice that Canadian import Banshee that you were selling back in September.
  • 6 24
flag arichards64 (Jan 8, 2021 at 13:05) (Below Threshold)
 I sold that bike over 5 years ago you donut ???? But thanks for the rather confusing reply. You can go back to your Soy Latte and read the Guardian now ????
  • 3 0
 Yea except we hardly make anything ourselves.
The one thing we did do ourselves (financial services) has been compromised for a bogus deal about fish (0.1% of economy)
  • 19 8
 Don't think the UK leaving the EU is the only excuse to jack up prices, most have been using the covid-19 and then going on "low" stock with most of the bikes, then they will randomly appear, with a nice price hike. Same with parts. Think the bike companies are trolling us hard still.
  • 5 0
 Not quite, unfortunately. As of december, Rockshox are now quoting 250 days lead time to supply bike brands with suspension components. Fox have stopped giving a date, and Shimano are quoting up to 12 months. This problem isn't going anywhere any time soon. Even if they have factory capacity to make frames, they haven't got any bits to turn them into bikes with. It is pretty crazy, and its hitting everyone - not just the consumers.
  • 2 0
 @jamesheath What's causing all those delays?
  • 4 0
 @biggishbenji: covid and an absolute surge in demand, think about it right down to the raw materials with Covid measures etc production at most plants is down, then shipping and delays at ports due to staff reduction etc, the impact is seismic
  • 1 0
 @sewer-rat: Shimano have also prioritised production of cheap groupsets and components as that's the greatest demand. To satisfy all the newcomers to cycling. So you can buy a Halfords carerra with junk parts, but not get hold of a bike with mid to high end componentry. Sucks to be actually into cycling.
  • 14 5
 Ah Brexit, who would have thought :-)

Bummed by Nukeproofs news, was debating between mega and meta AM, guess there is a clear winner now
  • 9 1
 I was looking for the mega comp, it was 2500 before tax and after the price adjust it went to 3700. Hard times waiting nukeproof
  • 8 0
 @Noeserd: Holy shit, that's quite the bump. Brutal...
  • 3 1
 @Noeserd: it will be for any bike you try and purchase from the UK, not just Nukeproof :-(
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: Then i should buy the privateer 161 asap :--(
  • 3 0
 Can you take a vacation to another country, buy a bike and make it look used, then bring it back to avoid the bs taxes? Install used grips, pedals, and tires and get it dirty? Might be worth it with that markup.
  • 10 0
 Build that moat! Build that moat!
  • 5 1
 its already there
  • 1 0
 how's the wall and how much did that one cost?
  • 1 0
 @markg1150: I think Mexico is building and paying for the wall, now, after the trumpers raided the capital.
  • 13 4
 Maybe a step in the right direction? Incentivise manufacturing away from Asia and buy more locally?
  • 11 6
 Ahhh you shouldn't say that ,your get called names by the pc ,environmentally ,ethically minded mtbers who only get behind said perceived gallant tropes of the moment until it affects their ability to consume cheap throw away goods.spoilt man children, yes it would be a good idea to buy more locally and incentivise british manufacturers.
  • 6 11
flag arichards64 (Jan 8, 2021 at 13:07) (Below Threshold)
 I wrote something like this earlier and the Remoaners weren’t happy mate I’d watch out ???????? they’re an angry bunch. I even voted Remain ????
  • 3 0
 That’s a sound idea and I’m all for it but then have you seen the prices of uk made frames? Your average cyclist is most likely struggling to keep it all together and continue riding anyway. I’m still not seeing how brexit “benefits” will filter down to anyone past the usual mega rich newspaper owners. If all we get is sovereignty whatever that is it’s a shit deal. We could do with lower cost housing and business premises before we start getting existential
  • 2 0
 @arichards64: totally agree with increase UK manufacturing, a great idea but......

With these rules even an Orange could fall foul to the rules, once you build a full bike with overseas parts they may come to more than 45% of the products value so incur the tariffs.

We can’t go from a nation that manufactures very little to almost everything overnight, it’s going to be a slog going forward for sure.
  • 2 1
 @justanotherusername: it's not that hard, orange sells bike for 3k to dealer who will sell it for £5 inc. tax. Forks shock drive post etc is 1200, rest comes from UK/EU (frames, wheels, minor parts like axles headsets etc). 40% foreign. Job done.
  • 5 3
 @benpinnick: you are making up the maths to suit your opinion when I am just putting out possible scenarios.

How do you know forks shock etc will be a low enough cost to come in below the required percentage?

I’m not sure (are you?) how the value is calculated - will they allow you to certify the cost of the frame as being £xx - how will you prove its ‘value’ after manufacture from raw material and you haven’t taken into account raw material costs which come from overseas.

It’s not going to be simple, at all.

Then we get into complicated products like electricals, cars, motorcycles, other forms of vehicle and scientific products etc - high tech stuff we may assemble here from parts around the world.

Wether you are a brexiteer or remainer is irrelevant, this is a huge problem.
  • 9 2
 @justanotherusername: because I own a mountain bike company.
  • 5 2
 @justanotherusername: that also needed a smiley Smile
  • 4 1
 @benpinnick: ah you are the guy from Bird then.

Good stuff, I own a manufacturing business here in the UK (not bikes though we do sometimes so favours) and trying to put this together for our exports to EU.

What do you understand in terms of adding value then in this type of scenario. E.g. how do you define a component of a bikes value (the frame in this case)

I guess this means you guys are going to feel it for exports to EU moving forward as your stuff is I assume made in Taiwan.
  • 7 0
 @justanotherusername: it differs for eaxh product code so you need to know the specific rules for yours. Only the max value has been published so far for 8712 code (bikes). The value proposition is simple enough, my orange example works. What's less clear is the rules for specific operations needed to qualify for sufficient operations during manufacture. I've based my assumptions on the Canadian and Japanese deals which are the most recent eu deals so probably very relevant. Inputs value is based on imported cost so set based on what you paid. Output value is your ex works price. Obviously it gets trickier I'd you own the offshore manufacturing that contributes some parts, cost per component a little harder to define in that case.

In all cases you'll need to get it certified so it's that person you convince of your costs.

As for us frames etc the duty is not a problem. Complete bikes it's a bit steep, but we have a plan. I hope to be selling on DDP terms at current pricing by the end of the month (shipping costs not withstanding) but it will be a more limited, EU content heavy set of build options.
  • 2 0
 @benpinnick: Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I think we will be in a simpler position being sub £100 parts almost entirely UK machined - getting things certified will no doubt add cost and complexity though.

I think your right about the specific operation required to qualify being ambiguous at this point - will be interesting to see how they define this.

I hope it works out for you guys, nice bikes and like the company, no bullshit gear.
  • 5 4
 @benpinnick: Seems to make sense to me. Plenty of great frame builders here in the UK already. Give them a level playing field for a while and we’ll see whats what. If a company like Hope could expand into the affordable drivetrain market then you’d be well clear of the 40%.
  • 3 2
 @arichards64: there isn’t a single mass producer of frames in the UK from any material.

Orange would be largest and are absolute minnows in terms of figures.

We can’t expect uk riders to ditch affordable imports for boutique steel single pivots, brazed hard tails and £3500 carbon frames.

Besides, this doesn’t stop UK brands selling frames from Taiwan, it makes it harder for them to export them to the EU and make a profit, where is the benefit in that?
  • 4 6
 @justanotherusername: Didn’t say there was. Why can only imports be affordable? Why can’t affordable bikes be made in the UK I’m curious? We can cut tubes and weld no? I’m not saying this will happen overnight, Rome wasn’t built in a day after all. Makes you wonder, what if our ancestors had your attitude of ‘I want it cheap and I want it now, or else whats the point...’ Companies like Hope do a roaring trade despite being a little pricier than the competiton... I wonder why...? Good UK customer service, quality machined parts, easily available spares ( not to mention cheeky Union Jack on the reservoir caps) Smile
  • 2 0
 @arichards64: orange bikes are like marmite, I don’t love them !
  • 2 0
 @arichards64: We can clear it already just not with the full range of options.
  • 3 0
 @arichards64: Unfortunately if anything it will mean more frames made in the EU, it lessens the chances of seeing mass manufacture coming back to the UK.

@justanotherusername: I think Brompton is by far the biggest frame manufacturer in the UK.
  • 5 1
 @arichards64: making an aluminium frame is labour intensive unless you make huge numbers by robot which isn’t realistic for just the UK market.

Hope use modern CNC machinery with plenty of automation - the company I co-own os similar albeit much much smaller, we can have one person tend 3 machines with ease and hope have machines that can run almost unattended for a weekend - labour in the UK is expensive remember.

You have to ask yourself, why wouldn’t someone do it pre Brexit? And why would they do it post Brexit now it’s LESS cost effective / profitable to do so due to tariffs into your closest and largest market?

As Ben says, this will likely increase EU manufacturing and deter UK production, not help it.

It seems Brexiteer positivity and optimism can’t remove the effects of hard facts after all....
  • 9 1
 @arichards64: living costs, wages, rent etc are so much cheaper over in Asia than the UK. Even if you fully automate a factory you still have rent/land costs, staff costs for engineers, sales, accountants, managers, packing etc. That cost has to be absorbed and it has to go to the cost of the product. If multi billion pound industries struggle to make it work, it's unlikely that bike companies will. A certain profit margin has to be made for the company to be viable.

Hope do very well for themselves but they are nowhere near the size of SRAM, Shimano, Trek etc. If you ride in the UK you'd think they were, go to Europe and it's less prominent. North America you see the hubs but it's rare to see anything else. From my memory of a few years ago, I don't think one shop sold hope brakes in Vancouver, Whistler, Squamish, Bellingham. I asked one shop who sold the hubs why and they said they are too expensive and there just isn't the demand.

At the end of the day, if you live in a well developed country, it has a high cost of living which works against mass production costs unfortunately for things like bike manufacturing.

Our ancestors certainly did there bit for globalization with the British empire and trading/expanding all over the world, it might explain why Curry's are so popular in the UK.

The UK designs and manufactures some of the most high tech equipment in the world, F1, Motorsports, space, weapons etc. Where you command the cost to cover production, lower cost is harder to do. If it was that easy to do, companies would already be doing it with our without being part of Europe. We've left the biggest free trade group in the world and are trying to figure out what we do now. Take a look at Wikipedia and see what free trade agreements Europe has, the government has to equal or ideally better that which will be pretty much impossible unfortunately.

If you want cheap labour to manufacture, that'll have to come from abroad and we just cut off the supply somewhat from European countries like Poland. Maybe it's a good job the government has increased the visa numbers from outside Europe, in the future we might have less Europeans and more Botswana's.

Manufacturing loves stability and that's exactly what we don't have just now. How that changes in the future no one knows. People voted to be free of the restraints of Europe, to control borders and immigration and for extra money for the NHS. The problem is that no solid plans were ever put in place to show how this would happen and no measures were set. Basically the politicians will say it was a success but with no facts or figures behind it.
  • 3 1
 the complexity , variables and possibilitys are are so massive to say after what 9 days that is all doomed to fail is 99% stupid according to my statistics.
(as I wrote this statistic on the Internet it's now fact as long as you agree with it as per Internet rules)
  • 3 11
flag arichards64 (Jan 9, 2021 at 5:00) (Below Threshold)
 @bainbridge: So what you’re saying is its better to buy cheap mass produced products from abroad because the workers can be paid a slave wage and receive no benefits from their employers? Who cares right, so long as you get your £4k mountain bike for a few hundred quid less? I dont accept your argument that British brands will be much worse off. You barely see them abroad when compared with brands like Canyon, Nukeproof, YT etc. Operations can be scaled up quickly to meet demand. Large scale operations can produce cheaply. Its a knock on effect.
  • 4 1
 @arichards64: I think you missed the point of what @bainbridge very eloquently said, doing business in the uk is expensive, rightly because of relatively high wages and also unfortunately because of high rents. There is a market for British made stuff but that market is pretty small, especially when you consider the majority of the population are on the breadline, the breadline to which brexit is contributing.
  • 7 1
 @arichards64: you speak like a man with no practical experience about the subject what so ever.
  • 3 8
flag arichards64 (Jan 9, 2021 at 11:27) (Below Threshold)
 @justanotherusername: You speak like a defeatist Remoaner, probably should move to France you’d fit right in. Just because your business is going to fold, you think everyone else will follow suit. Its quite hilarious. Maybe you’re right Britain will just melt away without the EU trade block lol. Come back to me in a year when the British bike brands are doing great....
  • 2 4
 @Peskycoots No I understood it fine thank you, I think you mis-understood my original point. I wasn’t trying to say that Britain will now turn into the bike manufacturing powerhouse of the world. Just that British built brands have a more level playing field now in their domestic marketplace and will be nice to see if they flourish a little because of it. Brexit happened, its done, stop crying about it....
  • 2 1
 @arichards64: I’m not crying brother I have to be honest I’ve dodged the whole thing as I can afford dual nationality, I’m just pointing out how the poor will be poorer and the wealthy metropolitan elite will be a bit wealthier and the rich property owning newspaper shareholding oligarchs will be making a killing. Chin chin to sovereignty chap
  • 3 6
 @justanotherusername: Mate you got made to look stupid by the guy Bird cycles guy so sit down lol
  • 3 3
 @Peskycoots: Also think you are confusing issues around covid19 with Brexit.
  • 1 0
 @arichards64: in what way?
  • 2 7
flag arichards64 (Jan 9, 2021 at 11:55) (Below Threshold)
 @Peskycoots: Yes funding huge shiny Bureaucracies in Brussells definitely helps the poor lol
  • 3 4
 @Peskycoots: “the breadline to which Brexit is contributing” absolutely no evidence for this, we haven’t even had a normal month of trading because of the Covid19 restrictions so this is simply speculation based on your bias.
  • 6 2
 @arichards64: yeah that Covid sure turned up at a handy time for the brexit lot there’s no denying that. However there is overwhelming or near-unanimous agreement among economists that leaving the European Union will adversely affect the British economy in the medium- and long-term. I could search around and link you to some reliable resources but I’m guessing that experts can go f*ck themselves right?
  • 2 3
 @Peskycoots: I’m ok thanks, got my degree in business management and a masters in economics from the UoSheffield so I think I’ll manage without a few links to The Guardians website. BBC actually caught recently using pictures of the French blockade tail-backs and portraying it as delays due to Brexit - changed the article once found out.
  • 7 2
 @arichards64: haha knew it I can spot the type. Good luck with that masters in economics lad doesn’t sound like it was worth the effort.
  • 3 5
 @Peskycoots: I had an interesting discussion with an old course mate who is a staunch Remainer. He said EU countries will now stop doing business with the UK because filling out the paperwork is too much effort. I asked him if this means EU workers will lose jobs. He said no because they will just sell to other countries. Would those be WTO countries I asked. Yes he said. Well they will need to fill in the same paperwork then. Rumbled.
  • 7 1
 @arichards64: cool anecdote, did they not touch on data during your degree? I’ll make it punchy: leaving the EU has, is and will cost UK workers jobs and income. This is confirmed by our staunch leaver government. The only thing up for debate is whether it’s worth it, for some it’s ideologically worth any price (because they can afford it maybe?) whereas for others it’s a bit of a disaster (which it was for me personally and professionally). So far I’m not seeing any tangible benefits, only vague theoretical future ones
  • 3 4
 @Peskycoots: We’re only a week into Brexit. During which we have been in full lockdown due to a pandemic. There is no reliable data to support the claims you make. The anti-Brexit media have been pushing the doom and gloom narrative and with a lack of any reliable data resorted to their crystal balls which are invariably wrong and designed to stir-up fear. Britain will be fine, don’t worry.
  • 2 2
 @Peskycoots: You mention this was a disaster for you personally and professionally which if that is the case I am sorry to hear. Would you mind expanding a little? Despite what you might think I am open minded to any facts and narratives which run counter to my current point of view, and am genuinely interested to hear your story...
  • 2 0
 @arichards64: I’m not worried any more I’m lucky enough to have been able to move on, albeit not in the way I had initially planned. I was merely pointing out that there is overwhelming or near-unanimous agreement among economists that leaving the European Union will adversely affect the British economy in the medium- and long-term and that the only thing up for debate is whether it’s worth it
  • 8 1
 @arichards64: ooooow petal, you are getting a all hot and bothered now - lots of ratty, angry responses trying to express your opinion as being more important than real world experience and fact, how unexpected....

My business will not ‘fold’ due to Brexit - we make things in the UK - just like you want people to do so quite hilarious you would wish that! I am literally doing what you want the British to do, but I am expressing the reality of it now being more difficult to sell to the EU.

The ‘guy from bird’ was quite helpful actually, and put me on the right track to getting our product into the EU in the most effective way - I can’t talk on his behalf but I doubt he thinks the deal we have is particularly helpful for business either, but it’s Ok, you the triumphant brexiteer sill save us all with your encyclopaedic business knowledge and endless optimism.
  • 2 5
 @justanotherusername: Ah so you manufacture things in the UK? Thought this wasn’t cost effective anymore? So you’ll be closing your doors in that case then? No? Nice of him to help you after you tried to discredit his post before you realised who he was. You’re shifting the argument away from my original point that this will be good for UK bike builders. I didn’t claim they’ll take over the global market, or that selling to the EU isn’t harder. They will sell more domestically and less to the EU most likely. I’m not surprised you struggle with adapting to new situations with your attitude to things.
  • 3 0
 @arichards64: no I'm not saying it's better to buy mass produced parts where workers get abused, I'm not sure how you read that from what I wrote but anyway...
Producing a competitive priced and spec'd bike/component in the UK to sell world wide is hard if you want to have a reasonable profit margin. The UK has high living standards and costs, it is what it is. That gets factored into production costs. Hope automate a lot of the production which helps, machines and raw materials have a fairly consistent cost regardless of where they are in the world. It's all the other costs that add up to cause the problems. Hope it at the upper end of the cost scale for every component, some sell well abroad, some do not. Other companies own a big chunk of that price point in those markets, industry nine hubs, Chris king hubs, race Face cranks and bars etc. These companies are natives in that area, don't have the import duties and have the home grown support that hope enjoy in the UK. Let's be honest they are all desirable products. Some companies in the Western world have a wage cost of 50% of the total operating cost although you would look for around 30% for manufacturing. That cost for a I'll company compared to a Chinese/Taiwanese company makes a big difference to your profit margin.

Many would argue we have a more skilled and productive workforce, which is sometimes true, although there is plenty of skill in other parts of the world, hence why most alloy frame are made in Taiwan.

To sell something you have to be competitive through a combination of price, performance, advertising, social media, warranty etc. Cost is only one aspect but also a vital one and that's the main one brexit is effecting at the moment through unknown tariffs, so much so that companies are unwilling to trade in case they get hit by fines or lose a load of money. Once they figure out the costs and complexity they'll trade again but will the market be smaller/same/larger than before? If it's the same product/quality etc as before but cost changes that that will decide the sales, cheaper=higher sales, expensive=less sales.

Operations are not ready to scale up, e.g. Press fit bottom brackets, correct canyon warranty issues, pole bikes, trick stuff to make but a few. It takes a lot of manpower and know how to scale up if you don't want to f*ck up. It can be done but if you underestimate the task it will bite you like all the examples above.

Like I said Hope do very well but sales abroad aren't massive abroad due to the competition they face. It's very possible to have a successful business post brexit but depending on what you're selling and where, it might be harder or easier.

Out of all of the trade deals and outcome of brexit so far makes you confident of British success or not confident?

For the record I was for brexit but voted against it. That might sound strange, but there was never a plan to make it a success, just an idealism. From my experience if you don't have a plan you're screwed, if you have a good plan you have a chance but it's still not guaranteed. Nothing is guaranteed, not even for multi billion pound companies.
  • 5 1
 @arichards64: Ok petal, you are right, our doors will be closing tomorrow because the angry brexiteer on pink bike said we can’t adapt, oh wait, nobody said that - But we are putting the £250k of machinery investment on hold until we know the impact of the situation, so that’s a new job on hold too, that’s what this means, not the failure of business (though some will) but the potential for retraction and reduction of trade and therefore profit - great for the Uk though!

Bit hard to adapt to something when we only know exactly what the situation is a few days before the rules change, don’t you think?

I did discredit what he said as his first post was a little brief and I took it as if he was saying it’s all easy and nothing to about, my mistake - he knows his shit as I stated, you on the other hand have nothing to add but opinion and anger.

Back to your topic, you still struggle with the basics, the EU is a bigger market than the UK, take it off the table and the potential UK manufacturer makes less profit, hard to understand? And yet again, it’s MORE difficult now than before to manufacture in the UK, not less and people didn’t do it before, so why now?
Don’t believe be - the ‘guy from bird’ said a similar thing, just look.

Nighty night bab, enjoy having an opinion from a place of absolutely no involvement, expertise or experience.
  • 2 10
flag arichards64 (Jan 9, 2021 at 14:30) (Below Threshold)
 @justanotherusername: You were one of those dummies that didn’t prepare cos you thought Brexit magically wouldn’t happen aren’t you. Oh dear. You’ve just done the same to me that you did to Ben. Dismissed my opinion as stupid without knowing who I am or what my expertise are. You’re so knowledgable on the matter yet he had to educate you on how to do business with the EU now!? Sad, closed-minded little man you are.
  • 5 0
 @arichards64: ah yes, dumb for not preparing for a deal that wasn’t actually done until around 2 weeks ago. Pretty hard of thinking, aren’t you?

In case you haven’t noticed. This whole article is about companies suspending / altering trade due to these changes - all dummies! Oh, just had a read an email from a machine supplier regarding spares we need from the EU, they won’t even send them to us now (have to come direct from Japan now) due to the new rules, dummies!

Silly remoaners, we should have been mind readers but we were too busy being closed minded little men instead of blind optimists.

Out of interest. What’s your job?
  • 2 3
 @bainbridge: I’m not suggesting British brands should be aiming to sell worldwide at the moment. I’m arguing that they will now be getting a bigger slice of the UK market and be selling less abroad. Like you say our homegrown brands don’t seem to sell large volume abroad anyway, so seems there is more to gain in terms of domestic trade than lose in terms of foreign? Especially as cheaper foreign imports are now more expensive and less readily available to the consumer. The UK is a huge market in its own right. I wouldn’t assume a brand has to be global to be successful.

No I totally understand what you mean. There were for’s and against’s for me, but essentially I decided same as you that our politicians would make a complete hash of it so it was unlikely to be a success. I’m of a view now that its happened and we need to look to the future, no point crying over spilt milk. All the arguing and negative doom and gloom talk doesn’t serve any of our best interests.
  • 3 0
 @arichards64: Hope exports around 50% of its production - I would say half of everything they make is a fair volume.
  • 1 6
flag arichards64 (Jan 9, 2021 at 15:31) (Below Threshold)
 @justanotherusername: Yawn.... you’re not going to grasp it clearly. Best of luck to you. Honestly.
  • 7 2
 @arichards64: are you Jacob reese mogs and preeti patels love child by the way ! You come across like right little twit !
  • 2 0
 @arichards64: worth remembering that for a British company the domestic market has reduced from around 800 million (by World standards, very wealthy) consumers to around 70 million, whereas for an EU based company their domestic market has reduced by a much smaller amount from that 800 million to ~740 million. The impact in this regard is an order of magnitude larger on British companies than on EU based companies so their reliance on making up that trade with RoW countries is much smaller.

Additionally, I'd like to know how much of even Orange or Hope's products are sourced in the UK. I don't know where they source raw material from but I imagine they order aluminium and steel block and tubing, if that is imported the costs will likely go up and may cause issues for even UK based manufacturers. Not to mention any of the servicing or running of the machines they use.

Regards your comment on 'remoaner dummies failing to prepare' - the deal wasn't agreed until Christmas eve, which gave very little time for businesses to prepare. Some businesses are small and agile and may have been able to do this work over the festive period while working to covid restrictions with reduced workforces but other businesses are large and complex and it will have been a challenge even with 6 months or longer of implementation period.
  • 1 1
 @justanotherusername: i own a company that manufactures frames and all the stuff to manufacture them in the UK im quite looking forward to all this
  • 1 1
 @bainbridge: everything you listed there costs 1000 times more than a bicycle , manufacturing with a government budget is easy manufacturing a bicycle frame for the same money as the far eastern folks , different proposition
  • 1 0
 @arichards64: he runs a manufacturing company as do I he probably has plenty of experience behind his argument , saying something isnt the same as it being viable
  • 1 2
 @arichards64: i worked at a very high tech manufacturing place in sheffield called the AMRC everytime a tosser with an MBA showed up it went to shit
  • 1 1
 @arichards64: he didnt really did he the bird bloke thought he would roll out his willy and despite justanotherusername having a manufacturing business probably scored 1 point , he probably make some bike parts then they could say the same thing , it matters not a jot what the product is problem remains
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: ive hust been talking to brompton about some stuff 85000 units a year they are ramping up for
  • 1 0
 @arichards64: framebuilders in the Uk do you mean the ones who care more about instagram profiles? Or the ones where mass manufacture is 12 bikes a year i can name 4 companies that dont sit in that bracket
  • 2 0
 @Compositepro: I have seen your stuff / work - be good if you could capitalise on this, as you say though ramping up QTY is always even if the demand is there is never easy, just how many of the insta frame builders are making more than a frame a week....
  • 2 0
 @justanotherusername: and here is the problem ( for me anyway) im sure you already know from actually making things rather than importing them from another country and selling them , its a lot of effort for a return that will sometimes make you wonder why the hell am i doing this , If someone can go and earn 10k a month and a gold plated pension working for a company with little or no risk to themselves then why would you want to be involved in making things , i will admit some of these guys really have a passion for what they do they swap salary for the love , but eventually it runs out , the day to day , I only know of one custom framebuilder in the UK running a brand that batch produces these days , your’e quite right they might not make more than a dozen frames a year
  • 2 0
 @unleash: i like you already
  • 1 0
 @Compositepro: I think we'll agree to disagree on the government budgets makes it easy.

But we do agree that making products for the same cost as the far East is very hard. I think hope are doing it right with their bikes, it's top end stuff, hope everything on it, looks great and honestly I think it's good value compared to a specialized, Santa Cruz etc. To try to compete with cheap frames would be incredibly hard. I think you have to go high end/high tech or high value/volume.
  • 1 0
 @bainbridge: aren’t the majority of bikes sold base level ?
  • 1 0
 @Matt115lamb: Hope's base level is still at the upper end of the market isn't it? Carbon hope frame, hope brakes, stem, etc etc. They aren't cheap but compared to a relatively mass produced frame from the far East is a pretty good deal, and like everyone says the support from hope of second to none
  • 1 0
 @bainbridge: I agree but the majority won’t be able to buy a bikes over £3k and they’ll be stuck on boris bikes lol
  • 6 1
 So if say Hope announced a new "Brakesit" brake that was only available OEM on bikes for 4000 GBP, could bike manufacturers sell you the brakes with a complementary "made in UK" (- just the sticker) taiwanese bike, as the overall cost of the bike was mostly the actually made in UK Hope brake?
  • 6 1
 No because the bike was still assembled elsewhere. You could assemble a bike that has almost all foreign parts and a 4k UK brakeset and that could make your bike qualify, but you just paid 4k for a £300 brakeset to save a few hundred dollars duty. Thats some bad economics.
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick:

55% of a bike must be made in country 'insert-name-here' under country-of-origin rules.
  • 4 0
 @Lemmingie: nearly. The value of your non originating parts must not be greater than 45% of the ex works sale price, which is not the same.

You also have to do non simple assembly (so Taiwan packed bikes like bike shops assemble wont cut it).

So in theory if you jack your price high enough and meet the assembly rules you don't need any local parts, but good luck getting that wheeze past your local certifier.
  • 8 3
 The reason European brands have suspended sales into the UK is a VAT issue - they need to register for VAT in the UK now. As for shipping from the UK to EU - Are these not already available, e.g. all of these European countries deal with the USA for example so import duty charges are well known and documented and there are no tariffs to pay.
  • 4 1
 For importing from the UK: as far as I understand there might be the import-VAT added, which would be 19% additional in Germany.
  • 1 1
 @likehell: The issue is the other way round where the company from the EU must be registered for VAT in the UK.
  • 9 0
 Its literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard and I have heard a lot of dumb over the last few years. Imagine if every country in the world had the same idea. Global direct to consumer trade would basically stop overnight.
  • 8 2
 @benpinnick: send a letter to bojo, him and his gangs fault
  • 2 0
 delivery costs increase dramatically: chain reaction cycles wanted to charged me 23E for delivery of googles. Many Delivery services like GLS doesnt deliver any goods from UK at all.
  • 3 0
 @BartDM: CRC are probably sending duty paid so there are no handling / vat fees at the border
  • 3 0
 @justanotherusername: Not just companies based in EU countries; all countries ...

William Shatner's web-store/company [so, Canadian] tweeted about this a few months ago. Being a small web-store they wouldn't do the volumes of trade to justify the four figure sum per year to register & file the UK's VAT for them so the net effect was UK customers need not apply.
  • 1 0
 @Lemmingie: Well shit. Let’s wait and see what happens, this is huge if so and will be unsustainable for all involved moving forward, time for some deal modification already?
  • 3 0
 @justanotherusername: Not so much "some deal modification" as furious back-pedalling. It's only been a week and the schadenfreude is over-flowing.
  • 2 0
 VAT is one consideration, but this also impacts import duties and fees in many situations. Separation of the UK will often change what base price those fees are paid on. For example paying the same duty percentage to bring it into the UK, but paying that on retail price rather than first factory cost makes a huge difference. This won’t impact all brands, but will impact many that don’t have a physical setup or company registered in the UK. There are also handling and brokerage fees that are being newly applied, or being misapplied. Some of this will get sorted, but some of it is permanent. Bottom line - cost of getting goods into the UK just went way up for a lot of companies, and inevitably this will be passed on to consumers.
  • 3 0
 @tj7mesh: Agreed, duties ‘should’ have been sorted with the tariff deal but this is obviously not the case for EU-UK movement that falls foul of origin of goods rules.
  • 1 0
 The problem is no one seems to know exactly what their meant to be doing. If they register for VAT they have to pay a fee every year. While not British I've been unable to buy anything the ships overland through the UK because the logistics companies. So it's an absolute pain in my arse
  • 7 0
 Just got an email telling me my paid in full last year but yet to be delivered bike will cost me 13% more.
  • 1 1
 From the EU to Canada?
  • 3 0
 @Ralston88: Uk to Canada.
  • 7 1
 But Brexit was a done deal! It was supposed to be the easiest deal in history.... don't tell me they lied! I know, I know - just get over it.
  • 4 0
 Could Nukeproof in theory set up an assembly facility in the Republic of Ireland to serve the needs of the European market and a separate one in NI to serve the UK? I know this would be expensive in reality but would it allow the to function in both markets?
  • 4 0
 Actually they can set one up in NI and do both I think.
  • 8 1
 Popping bottles at Orange
  • 4 1
 Orange hardtails are made in Taiwan
  • 3 18
flag dark-o (Jan 8, 2021 at 8:37) (Below Threshold)
 @tomhoward379 So have you read the text?: As long they are assembled in England they don't have to rise the prices in England
  • 9 0
 @dark-o: Have you read it?


" In the case of Nukeproof, because most of the bike's value, e.g. frame and components, are manufactured in Asia, the complete bike is not classified as a European product (even if the bike is assembled in Europe). Our bikes, therefore, attract additional import duties between Europe and our UK warehouse. Combining this with price increases with rising raw materials, labour and current exchange rates we have already seen, it leaves us with little option but to increase our SRP's."
  • 1 5
flag dark-o (Jan 8, 2021 at 8:46) (Below Threshold)
 @Hertz32: In my understanding this means that Nukeproof Bikes are assembled in the EU and then shipped to England.. Probably assembled in Irland and then shipped to north Irland
  • 2 0
 @dark-o:

"Under the new trade deal, products have to contain a certain percentage of materials or the more esoteric “value” from the UK or the EU to be considered British or European, respectively."

"In the case of Nukeproof, because most of the bike's value, e.g. frame and components, are manufactured in Asia, the complete bike is not classified as a European product (even if the bike is assembled in Europe)"
  • 2 0
 @Hertz32: Assembling the bikes in the UK will avoid the issue, as the complete bikes wouldn't be crossing from the EU to UK. Nukeproof say they are planning to do this but don't have any facilities yet. It was in the comments to their FB post
  • 3 0
 They just lost tariff and duty free access to their biggest market, why would they be popping bottles, exactly?
  • 8 1
 @withdignityifnotalacrity: Have you ever been to Europe? Nobody rides Orange outsie of the UK
  • 8 2
 @dark-o: Well, this certainly makes sure that'll never change. Enjoy your pyrrhic victory.
  • 1 0
 @tomhoward379: Even the UK made frames are fully built with overseas parts - more than 45% of the value and that’s no longer a product made in the UK for a full bike.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: This doesn't matter for the UK market
  • 1 0
 @dark-o: For example - Nukeproof etc can sell within the UK with no problem, but Canyon cannot sell to the UK or Nukeproof to the EU without tariffs as the bikes are made overseas.

So essentially buying / selling full bikes between the UK and EU is going to be much more expensive.
  • 3 1
 For me the contention lies upon what factors contribute to 'value'.

For example anybody can go onto eBay now and order a frame made in the same factories as the 'brands' direct from the manufacturer in China for £150. Therefore if you're a UK brand selling a frame made from the same materials and in the same factory as the £150 direct jobbie but selling it for £500 then where is the extra value coming from? If the UK design, marketing, demo days, warranty, product availability, local distribution etc have no value then why would anybody pay £500 over £150?
  • 3 0
 That really only applies to the cheap and cheerful brands that use open mould frames. That planet x frame for 500 is probably the same as the one you're buying off alibaba for 150, but that really doesn't apply to the proper brands that do their own design and testing etc, and certainly not the ones that do their own manufacture.
  • 1 0
 By ‘value’ they will mean the manipulation / further enhancement of the goods.

E.g. purchase frame for £150, paint for £100 in uk = no good.

The things you mentioned add nothing to the product as an entity, just to the service.

This will cause huge issues, even orange will struggle to sell a full bike as made in uk due to components being all from outside of EU.
  • 2 0
 I really feel for the UK consumer atm. Every hobby/sport/recreation group I’m in is flooded by people desperate to get their hands on something (often having had to save for some time) but have almost zero options with brexit halting deliveries/sales almost completely.
  • 2 0
 Bit of a pain yes for the paperwork, but there are a lot more FTA than Customs Unions around so this process isn't new.

Political views aside. I do really not see how a Taiwanese Product arriving at the UK border will be charged duty (just as it would if arriving at the EU border direct from Asia) and then when exported from the UK to the EU will then be charged duty again.

If the UK import tariffs are lower than the EU on the same goods, then this is a 'problem' for the importing country. But practically to my knowledge the exporting firm would effectively not pay the duty showing that it has being exported (claim the border duty back).

VAT is a side point. A bike delivered to the EU from UK will be sold with 0 VAT, the VAT being applied at EU country customs, seems fair to me. Thing that is pissing me off at the moment is that the firms I have noticed are adding on HUGE amounts to export either side of the channel for some reason. Extra fee's yes, but not in the hundreds, let alone thousands
  • 5 0
 Nobody's got any bikes to sell anyhoo?
  • 2 0
 So what % increase are the tariffs on Canyon / Propain? Ordered a Propain back in October, still waiting for delivery and zero idea when it arrive / if I now have to pay more!
  • 3 0
 I’m in exactly the same situation with Propain. Concerned that not only am I gonna get stiffed for VAT again, but duty/import fees will apply, whatever they are. That said I did read on another forum somewhere that for transactions completed before 1st Jan with delivery after the trade/VAT rules in place at the time of payment apply. God k ones if that’s true and even if so, I’d imagine a hard time trying to convince some DHL warehouse / duty jockey when they want my to pony up another £1000 before they release to me.
  • 2 0
 @stingmered: apparently if you paid in full before the 1st you’re ok otherwise it’s vat on whatever is outstanding
  • 1 0
 @stingmered: Youll need to check how its being sent. Delivery Duty Paid (DDP) and you're fine. if Delivered at place then you'll be on the hook for 20-34% additional fees.
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: The issue is they can’t have paid for a duty paid service that is applicable now as it would have been made pre Brexit.

@Ralston88 & @Stinfmered - I would look very carefully into this, if Polygon don’t manufacture in the EU for rules of origin you could see a hefty charge levied upon import.

@peskycoots - I’m not sure about that, you are usually charged upon import based on the value of the item, I don’t see a current mechanism whereby you can escape this because you paid pre Brexit. I think realistically you should ask Propain to refund you the VAT and re invoice Net VAT as per current rules, I would certainly ask the question and for their assurances on the matter either way.
  • 1 0
 @stingmered: i bloody hope so man! I can't justify another 10,15,20% on a £5.5k bike! I think you're right that the issue will be with the delivery company though! Be stiffed by DHL with Japan deliveries before
  • 2 0
 @Ralston88: I would be very careful - if it’s a full bike you could be liable to UK VAT, UK import tariff and handling fees - e.g. 34%

Talk to Propain, right away.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: I'm in the exact same position - bought a Tyee CF 29" that's got a processing date of the 22nd of Jan.

I'm planning on emailing and calling Propain to ask what's up, and if possible request that I can pay them a bit more to convert the German VAT already paid to UK VAT, and to pay for them to increase the shipping to DDP - hopefully this would mean an increase of only about 15% (+1% to cover the difference in UK/German VAT, +14% in fees and duty), rather than the 34% for UK VAT (considering we already pain German VAT at 19%), fees and duty. I'd be interested to know what you think of this as an idea?
  • 2 1
 Actually pretty glad I don't ride my bike anymore and don't have to pay extortionate prices for every frigging aspect of the sport I can't stop loving reading this article. Don't look at me like that. It's a solution alright! #NoMoreBikeRiding #BanAllBicycles #NoBikesNoMore



/s
  • 1 0
 That's taking sarcasm to an extreme level.
  • 1 0
 Superstar components has suspended shipments to EU customers:

"Europe Sales - Unavailible currently. Due to the complications of the Brexit deal we are unable to ship items to Europe. We are hoping the situation will be clarified over the next few weeks and will update as we know more."
  • 1 0
 at some point concessions need to be made to reflect that fact that little old England can't possibly produce the variety of products they are placing tariffs on. if there arent equivalent UK industries then what is the point of the tariff?
  • 1 0
 Forgive my ignorance, but in some cases like Nukeproof, what has really changed? before this brexit trade deal their product was an EU product, assembled in another EU country and not 55% originally made within Europe?
This is messed up.....:-(
  • 1 0
 We now have our new trading situation in place: www.cotic.co.uk/international

Top and bottom of it is that all complete bikes and any frames that have come from Taiwan attract duty. The UK made model lines have enough UK content to qualify for 0% tariff.
  • 1 0
 Or maybe the plus side is UK bikes will start coming specced with Hope instead of the Taiwanese shit EU bikes will continue to get...we can only dream right? Imagine Hope brakes, (even though I prefer Shigura Wink ), cranks etc for the same price as some GX shit and SRAM brakes, I'll take that. My downvote shield is activated! But on the plus side on a more serious note maybe this will encourage a resurgence in UK manfacture, UK quality for the same price as imported Taiwanese..
  • 1 0
 I have bought 2 complete bikes from Nukeproof's 2021 line up exactly 2 weeks ago. The bikes will arrive via a dealer in March, but I just found out from the dealer that I will have to pay an extra 1100 euros for the tax. Thanks Brexit!
  • 3 0
 Don't be jealous, neighbours. Bike prices and availability are just as horrible on this side of the pond..
  • 6 6
 Britian wanted out , they voted , won the vote , fought with the rest of Europe to get out . Now there out , so stop crying in your milk . U want to buy in Europe ...then it will cost u unfortunately .. European countries will support each other Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow , but them are the facts .
  • 6 2
 What about the 2/3rds of the population that didn’t vote out?
  • 5 12
flag arichards64 (Jan 8, 2021 at 13:13) (Below Threshold)
 @tomhoward379: Tough, life is hard, suck it up
  • 8 0
 @arichards64: let’s not try and make it easier though eh?
  • 2 10
flag arichards64 (Jan 8, 2021 at 17:11) (Below Threshold)
 @tomhoward379: How about lets make it better, for our kids and their kids.
  • 9 1
 @arichards64: by putting up trade barriers and stopping freedom of movement? Removing environmental and worker protections? But don’t worry, a few rich tories will get richer and more powerful, and blue passports will make up for that.
  • 1 3
 @tomhoward379: Yawn.... Could talk about how freedom of movement amongst countries with economic disparity creates horrific problems in the labour market of the wealthier nations and actually undermines workers rights. But I’m sure you have other things to do like jerk it to the Eurovision song contest or something.
  • 3 1
 @arichards64: Sadly, we get to keep access to Eurovision. Economic migrants in general come here (or to other, more prosperous states) to do the low paid jobs that natives don’t want to do, see care workers, allowing us to go for the better paid/conditions jobs, not to mention their net contribution to the treasury. So tell me how migrant workers erode the law on workers rights, more so than members of the actual government are proposing to do, among other things.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-consumer-worker-protections-brexit-b1783331.html
  • 1 4
 @tomhoward379: Oh no I thought we’d seen the last of that. Ahhh the old ‘jobs British people don’t want to do’ line. One of the most racist and elitist fallacies to plague this debate. We did those jobs for centuries prior to joining the EU and now you think we’ve turned our nose up at them because we all want to be marketing gurus and tech start-ups. Oh please. The labour market is flooded already and unemploent is high, adding more people to the bottom of the labour pyramid does not help. So you’re saying bring the slaves in from the poorer countries so we can get on with the important stuff are you? Its proven that unskilled migrants take more from the economy than they input. People need to question the assumption that GDP is a direct reflection on quality of life for the average Brit. It is not.
  • 1 4
 @tomhoward379: We are a country with a generous welfare system, NHS, public services. All cost money. Majority of unskilled EU migrants take the unskilled jobs because its all they can get, because they are, ‘unskilled’. Wages for those jobs are low, and therefore they do not contribute a great amount of tax. Their spending power within the economy is limited and as a result they make less contributions in terms of VAT etc. They are much more likely to require extra government spending for multi-lingual services, and have a tendency to send large portions of their income to relatives in their native countries. Meanwhile Brits who aren’t highly skilled have limited opportunities for work and often end up on state benefits.
  • 1 0
 I’m wondering about Geometron/Nicolai. The frame is made in Germany, shock from Italy, and assembled in UK. So if I want to buy it in Ireland (frame & shock only), no extra fees, right?
  • 2 0
 There is likely to be a small increase due to handling fees because even the 0% stuff has to now be presented at customs and cleared, but you certainly won't get any tariffs applied.
  • 2 0
 after 2 years of studying economics our professor told us - a country's fate is not decided by economics, its decided by a handful of politicians
  • 2 0
 I just scrolled to the bottom without reading the comments , did i miss the lets turn this into a brexit love hate comments section again
  • 4 4
 It’s unfortunate that all these great brands will have to increase their prices, but local frame builders will probably thrive, which will make just hanging out in the trail parking lots more interesting
  • 3 0
 *Pats self on back for ordering the new Mega last fall for a lower price
  • 2 0
 I don't get why people were so excited about negotiating a new trade agreement? Must have been the sexy name.
  • 1 0
 Anyone know what duty or fees I’ll be needing to pay if I was to purchase a used bike (pinkbike ad) from EU and shipped to Uk.
  • 1 0
 I cancelled a Pace that I ordered first week of december, unfortunately. Bird is very clear about everything
  • 3 5
 So if either the Eu or uk brands buy/install more uk/European parts and assembled them all there eu /uk Bases and warehouses there won't be a big a price hike as they will meet the % (apart from the short term delivery costs which will come down as it's streamlined) so more jobs in uk and eu created. yeah real bummer that.
not be a over night thing but long term I can see some benefits for both. anything that removes the dependence on China.
  • 4 7
 It seems obvious to me too, but the Remoaners will say it sounds difficult and I want my cheapo Chinese bike now so nah
  • 1 0
 we will see more islanders on Nicolai
  • 2 1
 Wiggle has already changed free shipping from 50 euros to 100 euros Frown
  • 1 0
 Welcome to how us Americans feel about being double taxed with trafvs
  • 1 0
 clear as mud then!
  • 2 1
 Thanks, UK.
  • 1 4
 your welcome
  • 1 0
 Give owa
  • 1 0
 Welcome to switzerland..
  • 1 1
 At least they take back control...
  • 1 0
 double post
  • 5 7
 Government is great! Please give us more!
  • 6 3
 They generally are. It’s just every so often you get a twat and the means to spread lies.
  • 6 1
 This was brought to us by the UK version of the small government/libertarians.
  • 1 1
 @GrandMasterOrge: Could be, but it looks like they didn’t go far enough. Government is still the issue here.
  • 1 2
 Looks like you’ve traded one bureaucracy for another. You can argue whether it’s better or not, but government is still the problem here.
  • 4 0
 @TheR: politics is slightly different in Europe and, dare I say, more mature. “Big Government” is fine in the same way “Socialism” is normal, these aren’t the problem here. If anything we needed more oversight of newspapers and media to tell the truth rather than sell a dream. There was never a plan and there is no defined version of brexit, hence the realities of brexit will be expensive and painful.
  • 1 3
 @Peskycoots: Ok, if it’s not a problem, enjoy your extra tariffs and these companies choosing not to sell to your country.
  • 1 4
 I mean, yeah, if you don’t see that as a problem, far be it from me to tell you how to run your show, but don’t fool yourself — government is the source of the issue here.
  • 4 0
 @TheR: the issue is those in government/those with access to top table politicians wanting deregulation in order to line their own pockets and avoid tax. They simply don’t care if/how that affects the other 99.9%.
  • 6 1
 @TheR: sorry chap but government is demonstrably not the problem: There are idiots and thieves everywhere you go what’s important is holding people/companies to account for their truth and honesty, when we fail we get brexit and loss of freedom and higher prices and you get Fox News and Trump and conspiracy nuts storming your capitol.
  • 1 3
 @Peskycoots: Like, I said, if this is what you want, this is what you’ve got. Good luck!
  • 5 0
 @TheR: yeah, so the reason we have extra tarrifs and costs is *because* of the small government ideology in the UK.

It has caused costs for businesses to go up, not down. Before this we had integrated standards across the UK and EU and no tarrifs or checks to trade.
  • 1 1
 @GrandMasterOrge: Sounds like the EU agreement actually made the government smaller, or at least less of a hassle, in terms of trade. That sounds preferable to me, but there must have been some trade-offs? Someone mentioned Brexit was a libertarian thing, but libertarians are for anything that removes barriers to trade. Brexit sounds like a reactionary, protectionist movement, which isn’t libertarian at all.

Doesn’t matter. Whatever issues there were with being in the EU, or whatever issues you’re having now, are government inflicted. I suppose you can’t remove all of it, but in my opinion, the less of it the better. It’s up to you “chaps” to figure out what the acceptable level of that is. It doesn’t affect me too much. I’m just saying you guys are handling a rattle snake and are now surprised that it turned around and bit you.
  • 3 0
 @TheR: we only have control of what happens in the UK, we don't have representation in the EU or in any individual EU country's government any more.

The result of 'smaller government' in the UK is regulatory divergence from the previously agreed EU regs - that means tarrifs and customs.

Your argument for smaller government doesn't take into account relationships with other partners outside of your sphere of control. Perhaps this is less of an issue in the US as your domestic market is very large. A few weeks ago our 'domestic market' stretched from Iceland to the Turkish border and now it is drastically smaller - this is a problem (and an expense) for British companies.
  • 3 0
 @TheR: thanks chap, and good luck to you and your 200 years out of date American media drip fed world view I guess
  • 1 2
 @GrandMasterOrge: Yes, but let’s take some of the companies here. Cotic wants to sell bikes outside the UK, but can’t now (or has halted for now) because of restrictions and tariffs imposed by the EU. Rose in Germany would love the opportunity to sell to some of the 78 million people on your island, but won’t now because of the hassles and expense imposed on it by the UK government.

There are people on both sides of the continent that want to buy each other’s product. Presumably, there are people in Germany, France or wherever who would like to buy a Cotic. Presumably, Cotic would like to sell to them. So goes for Rose. There’s only one thing standing in their way — the governments.

And somehow people here are telling me they want more of that? Ok, it’s your world, but I don’t understand why you’d want more of it.
  • 1 2
 You haven’t made your government smaller in the UK with this movement. You’ve made it more powerful and restrictive.
  • 1 2
 @Peskycoots: Almost 250 years, thank you very much.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: ok 250 years out of date I guess I was being generous. But seriously, do you really think shrinking our governments and letting businesses do more of what they want is a good idea? That’s a bit of a fisher price; my first political viewpoint
  • 3 0
 @TheR: yes I'm sure there are customers on either side who would like to buy each other's products, that could a few weeks ago hassle free but now there are hurdles between the 2 markets.

A push towards deregulation in the UK has caused this, it does not help this. Having synced up regulations with your neighbours aids trade and business, and there needs to be a body that administers that.

Where is the logical end point for your small government argument? How do you feel about roads or drinking water standards for example?
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: I guess I agree with you provided the government is doing anything useful, but it seems in most of these cases they are only collecting fees and putting up red tape. If that’s what you want, then fine, but understand it comes at a price, and that is what you are seeing here.
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: Friendly reminder that our “out of date” government did not create this situation you currently find yourself in. This is a mess of your own doing.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: what do you think government does with taxes it collects? What pays for police and hospitals and roads? And what’s wrong with regulations and red tape? How’s the drinking water in flint?
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: Like I said, man, if you’re good with it, I’m not going to argue, but there is a price.
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: Funny you bring up the drinking water in Flint. Who’s in charge of the drinking water? The government. Who has failed the good people of Flint? The government.
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: And it’s not because the state of Michigan isn’t paying enough taxes. The rest of Michigan seems to be getting by just fine.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: what do you think would help flint? More or less government and regulations ?
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: A less corrupt government for sure.
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: Do you believe then, that companies like Cotic and Rose should be paying these extra taxes and fees to the respective governments? If yes, then what is your and everyone else’s issue with this article?
  • 3 0
 @TheR: the issue is that in your opening comment you've made it out to be an issue of the role of government in our countries, by applying the very Lego Duplo politics argument of 'government = bad, therefore shrinking the role of the state = good'. This isn't a sentiment that's as popular in Europe as it sounds like it is in America.

In this case brexit, which has always been a push to "free Britain of EU red tape" and deregulate our economy and manufacturing, turns out to actually add red tape as other countries tend to say 'oh, have you got a form to say that item has been manufactured to the correct standards and can you pay the correct import tax please' when you cut yourself free from their market and rules.

I mean who would have guessed it wasn't as simple as they were claiming.
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: It’s cute, by the way, that you think all taxes and fees go toward useful things like roads, healthcare, water and infrastructure, and not to things like, say, gender study programs in Pakistan, as we recently found out. But yeah, let’s give the government more, please. More power, more money.
  • 4 0
 @TheR: there is always waste and corruption but the majority of our taxes by far go to the greater good. Don’t get fixated on the dick that Fox News is slipping you, the world is objectively a better place for collective responsibility
  • 1 1
 @GrandMasterOrge: Yes, but the mistake you’re making here is thinking you actually have less government now. You don’t. Instead of one government, you have two. More government. Instead of one set of rules for trade, you have two. More government. Instead of a single VAT, you have VAT and whatever other tariffs and fees added to that.

Your people might have been told there would be less government, but you were either misled or those who headed the effort were mistaken. Whatever the case, it appears you actually got more. But make no mistake, government is the issue here, not the companies wanting to sell and not the people wanting to buy.
  • 1 1
 @Peskycoots: Yes, and I think you and I would agree that we would like the government to spend more on useful things (infrastructure, education, etc.) and less on wasteful things (gender study programs in Pakistan). The only way to do that is to limit their scope of their power and funds. Make them function at the bare minimum.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: no I’m sorry I’m quite happy for my, very high by the way, taxes to be used for both practical local concerns and for having a punt on fairly existential and/or speculative ideas. This is about society and humanity, I would like the human race to move forward and upward more than I would like a few more quid in my pocket to buy some toys.
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: Well, there you go. No issues here, which is what I said about 50 posts ago.
  • 1 1
 @Peskycoots: You’re an unapologetic statist, and I know there’s no changing your mind. Just as long as you admit the role of the government in raising the prices here and hindering trade. You’ve made the trade-off; good luck!
  • 1 0
 @TheR: oh yes it’s definitely the government that has created a situation where prices are rising and trade is being hindered, but I’m guessing it’s a stretch to imagine you will admit that this is because of the subsequent reduction in size of government and the relaxing of regulations and the good old « red tape »?
  • 3 0
 @Peskycoots: Well show me where the governmental red tape and regulation have been relaxed — it’s clearly been extended on both sides. If that’s the case, how is that less government? Clearly you haven’t received what’s been promised.
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: And you’ve gotten what you wanted taxes and fees and red tape for the greater good, right? So why are you upset about it?
  • 2 0
 @TheR: yes, welcome to the realities of minimising government, the very act of cutting red tape creates more elsewhere. Less government is a unicorn sold to you by very rich people that want you to think you’re a horse riding cowboy from the badlands that don’t need no guberment interfering with your freedom. It’s not you that will benefit from small government it’s Amazon
  • 1 1
 @Peskycoots: So less government=more government? But then it’s more government, and at this point I’m confused — that’s what you want, right?
  • 4 0
 @TheR: brexit is a project to cut red tape *within* the UK, judging by the news today about previously banned pesticides that appears to be happening.

This creates red tape *between* international trading partners.

As @peskycoots says, this is the reality of minimising government, we've spent 40 years working to reduce friction across the EU and one country's push to regulate itself less creates barriers between it and it's partners.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: it is quite evident you are confused, out of your depth in fact
  • 1 1
 @Peskycoots: Either that, or it’s really quite possible you’re not sharp enough to understand my points, or are the contradictions in your own worldview.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: both those points are possible yes, I’m interested in hearing a genuine challenge to my views, but nothing you’ve put down has convinced me yet.
  • 2 1
 @Peskycoots: Same here. Just a lot of chasing your tail in circles.
  • 1 1
 @Peskycoots: Hell, I’m not even disagreeing with you on a lot of it. It seems you want more of this stuff, you got it. There’s an obvious price to it all, and you seem willing to pay it. We seem to agree the government is causing it. Our only difference is I’d prefer less of it, and you would prefer more, and that’s not going to be reconciled. But in the end, I don’t have to deal with the issues here — it’s your country, not mine. So if this is what you want, great. You got it. Good luck.
  • 1 0
 @TheR: fair enough. Sometimes having a different world view doesn’t make you wrong eh? More a reflection of your different life experiences. Being on an mtb site we’re probably more alike than different so peace brother and I hope 2021 brings you some positive vibrations.
  • 1 0
 Essentially you’re arguing with a guy who agrees with you, and is telling you to go ahead and have it your way. I can’t figure it out.
  • 2 0
 @Peskycoots: Yes, peace friend. If you ever find yourself out this way and want a guide, look me up, for sure.
  • 1 0
 @TheR @Peskycoots : have to say (as an American living in the UK) I'm impressed that you two seem to have actually worked this out.
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