Pinkbike Poll: Would You Pay A Rider For Their Video?
Nathan Williams and Christian Rigal worked for three years on their 'Why Not?' BMX video part, and sold it directly for $5 per download.
By today's standards, the year 2010 was unremarkable. Macho Man Randy Savage died of a heart attack. There was a tomato shortage in the spring.
But in many ways, it was a golden era of mountain bike videos. Every young, hungry rider was putting in work on sponsor-me edits, and bike brands were investing in big, ambitious projects with their top athletes. Video edits took time, they weren't something you filmed in a day.
Fast forward a decade, and we see more video than ever from incredibly talented riders—but it's clear that on average the effort per project has gone down. There are probably only ~10 truly exceptional video parts per year. Tom Van Steenbergen's Wild West was a huge project and an absolute face-melter, Fabio Wibmer regularly blows our minds, and you can always count on Brandon Semenuk to drop a few gems every year.
Beyond that, there are a lot of one-day trail bike edits, or 3-4 day "projects"; marketing-heavy bike launch pieces designed to appeal to everyone, and a lot of YouTube folks talking at the camera for 10 minutes and 5 seconds. Ultimately, viewers are finding value in things besides shredits, and brands are demanding more return on their investments.
To be clear, that's not a bad thing necessarily. The YouTube space is exciting, and it's great that it's sharing more accessible versions of the sport with the general public. We've been having a lot of fun on our own channel with projects like Field Test and the Grim Donut in there, but no multi-year shredit efforts...
And who are we to say brands shouldn't be making sure their products are promoted in their videos? Having sponsored riders is sports marketing, it'd be silly to forget about the marketing part. An all-action video part often doesn't align with a brand's marketing goals—especially when it's someone riding insane, un-relatable features on an un-sellable bike with obsolete wheels. Hell, Nico Vink's incredible 'From The Ash' edit was supposed to be part of a bigger project that was plagued with production issues, so by the time it finally came out he had an entirely different bike sponsor.
All that said, there's something special about an action-based video part that someone put their blood, sweat, and tears into. As cool as that recent Trek Slash launch video was, what it really made me want is a long-form video part from Kade Edwards.
But if brands aren't interested in these high effort, low ROI videos, who should pay for them?
When you watch the outtakes from 'Why Not?' it's clear that the effort that went into it was massive.
Well, in my opinion, I should. I'm the one that wants to see them after all.
In the BMX world, Nathan Williams and Christian Rigal worked for three years on their Why Not? video part, and sold it directly for $5 per download. I enjoyed the trailer, heard a few people say it was good, and was happy to spend the $5. Total insanity, worth every penny. If you're at all interested in BMX, you should go buy it right now.
That said, while nearly 900K people have watched the outtakes above, only a fraction of them spent the $5 on the film. So maybe I'm in the minority.
If the business model sounds familiar, it's somewhat similar to Brandon Semenuk and Rupert Walker's 2015 project Revel in the Chaos. It's still available for $6 on iTunes and elsewhere. But Brandon and Rupert went through more traditional distribution channels, and still worked with sponsors to fund some of the production. Today, a lot of top riders wouldn't have the luxury of that production budget.
In contrast, Nathan and Christian have taken a more direct path—they had a lot less support, but they get to keep a lot more of the money. I know my $5 went directly to them, and that made it an even easier choice for me.
So, should riders focus on long-term edits more than they are right now? Do you want to see a long-form Kade Edwards project? Am I just an old guy yelling at the kids on my lawn? Do I have a rose-coloured memory of 2010?
Are you willing to pay for a major ~8 minute video part from a top rider? One they worked on for a year or two on and put their bodies on the line for?
And if so, how much?
Author Info:
Member since Dec 29, 2010
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It’s the one that says Bad Mother F*#ker
--reach in the bag...
I don’t want to watch 25 minutes of ‘epic’ nature lifestyle shots just to see the few shots of the actual high level riding. If I want that I’ll go watch Planet Earth. Bike, ski, snowboard, surf, etc videos should be about displaying the activity in my opinion.
Caveat, The Moment was great, but it was a documentary about the birth of the sport so really a different type of film with its own spot.
Just kidding. Sort of.
What might worse, though, is rock climbing videos where angsty 25 years old crow about how "society just doesn't understand what it means to truly passionate about something"
Also, dammit, get off my lawn.
You would think that their would be some interest in that Idea?
Fact is we're such entitled shits that asking people to pay for almost anything is just going to make them mad.
What have you done? No offense, you just come off that way.
But anyhow, the MTB'ers around me constantly cut down fences that the land managers put up to block illegal trails - so you're right, we are entitled shits.
That's the problem. You're being "asked" to pay for something that has a million free alternatives. People will pay for feature films sometimes. The number that don't and wait till it's free should tell you everything you need to know about charging for clips.
Do I just come off that way because I asked? Because I expect people to chip in?
Point I was trying to make is a lot of us entitled shits think everything but the bike is and should be free. It costs probably $10k a mile to build trail, but ask anyone to chip in and see what happens.
People complain that videos are glorified ads.. well who do you think is paying for them?
Not saying its good/bad or right/wrong, but I've very rarely encountered this kind of attitude with people I've worked with to support the cycling community. The vast majority of folks I've had the opportunity to work with don't expect anything in return for their contributions, unless its literally a paid job. Watching people have fun on my hard work has always been payment enough for me, especially with building. To each his or her own.
you yourself said "a bike is the only thing you need to ride" - that's bullshit. You need trails.
You mentioned BMX - the town I grew up in had to shut down it's bmx track because insurance got too expensive and no one would donate to the fund (I'm sure it didn't help that you'd see an ambulance parked on the course most weekends). The bmx track where I lived after that was [to my understanding] entirely funded with race fees because that's the only thing they could get people to pay for, despite being open to everyone all the time.
No dig no ride spots aren't public trails--you don't ask people to donate for them, advertise them, and put them on Trail Forks. No trail association is building public trails with that kind of expectation. Not one. If you expect people to chip in then open a private bike park. If you want to expand trail systems for the community's sake do so without expecting anything in return. Charity isn't charity when you want something back.
And don't be so hyperbolic about the all you need is a bike comment--its as true as its ever been, particularity in the context of your original post which is now way off on its own tangent. There are bike parks, tons of tax dollar trails accessible to bikes, and asking permission + chucking dirt is free.
Talk about 'tons of tax dollar trails' is west coast stupidity. In most of the US 100% of trails are built and maintained by volunteers - there's hardly such thing as a tax dollar trail most places.
the all you need is a bike comment is as true as ever - which is to say not at all. You think you're entitled to the work of others is the fact here.
Might be time for some reflection about what you're really looking for out of your hard work. Seems like a mighty chip you got there as a result.
It was usually what, 10-15gbp for a 40 minute video? We're just spoiled for content these days.
I'll be honest, whenever the boys come round for a beer it's still those old classics that get slid into the DVD, or even cassette player and we still enjoy them.
Unfortunately the market has changed and the trend for free-access sponsored content is not going to go away any time soon.
Seriously though, how many whips have we seen over the last decade, and slopestyle is a whole lot like diving on a bike now- granted, the risks are nutty and the skills are cray cray. but 95% of bike vids is stuff that 95% of us have seen over and over and over. every once in a while there's a gem with something new or presented in a spectacular way, but most stuff? seen it before. a lot.
I guess it's a bit like an oppo spin/whip/barspin, it may be technically very difficult compared to standard but it still looks the same to me.
+ aaron laroque videos ... but not for the good riding+bad filmin/editing/music stuff that is uploaded here regularly
A pity that he moved over to the MX crowd. But fair enough, I understand that he wants to earn money, maybe he is personally into MX, I don‘t know.
This feels like part of a much bigger discussion though - Does anybody doing anything off their own backs DESERVE to be paid for it? On one hand, yes, you've put in a tonne of effort and should be able to reap the rewards of it. On the other hand, the world doesn't owe you anything and just because you've put in blood, sweat and tears doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be any good, meaning people might just not care about it enough to pay for it.
If you view MTB films like any other commodity, rather than as part of the an MTB lifestyle that people like to buy into, then it really only makes sense that it follows the same model of any other type of goods or service. Take the risk and put it out there - if it's good it'll sell.
Best of luck to them for trying - it'd be cool if it worked, but unless everyone stops making videos on youtube and posting their content for free all over social media I really don't think it will.
We all "should" pay. Especially for stuff with high production value like 'From The Ash' and many Semenuk vids but unless everyone that is producing content agrees to mount a united front and MAKE us all pay for content ( impossible) it will never change.
But somewhere after Strength In Numbers, edits made their rise as cell phones and good inexpensive cameras came out. Look at nowadays when anyone with a friend with a drone and some basic phone editing software can be a star.
Add on top that @pinkbike did it to themselves by making the few good paid movies free from time to time and theirs no reason to go back. Remembered fondly.
I do not see point of paying for the advertisement videos ( promo of brand); however will easily purchase full length action sport movie
Ok old man shouts at cloud goes back inside.
We have fun and by buying bikes, vacations, race entry fee, apparel, casual clothing, photography, communication and a lot of other crap which as a by product we support the transport industry. financing this industry well enough.
what do we get in return? FUN. a lot of FUN.
what do the industry should do in return? finance events, sponsor riders and develop new products.
and media (you guys) should keep feeding us riders information which motivate us to keep us investing in the industry we are part of.
there is a limit to the expanses a rider will spend, i am personally leaving every entity which suddenly for their good reason stat charging for a service used to be free. for example trailfork.
I do like a good short edit - maybe 10 mins and enjoyed a couple of longer ones in the last 8 years or so. I loved the Sprung series but thats because I personally related to it, it had my mates in (And me loitering) and was on my home turf.
In a nut shell, how many times can you watch someone do a mega forward backward sideward no hander no footer no biker to manual landing. It kinda gets a bit uninteresting after 5 mins or so. Especially if its at some jump spot. I need scenery. I need music. I need constant engagement. Something Danny M does very well in his clips. And they are a good length too.
Also, we are in smart phone time. I don't own a computer. I cant watch long vids on a phone.
Bullshit excuse. Should have left that choice out, since it legitimatizes theft. Admitting to stealing something still means you f*cking stole it.
inb4: "their suspension settings are useless to you because they fastbois and you snailboi"
Oh... it’s not relateable.
I guess that depends on your aspirations?
Better yet, what if Pinkbike had it's own bike centric streaming service for $5 a month or something? With a slick app that worked like any other streaming service? That would give independent bike video producers an outlet for short films and series that caters directly to their needs through the largest online mountain bike community in existence.
www.pinkbike.tv @radek @bentomas @canadaka ???
One thing I am a bit surprised about is that more MTB long forms didn't come to Netflix after Deathgrip, I assumed that would open the floodgates...
Not sure how I feel about handing over cash for a short edit of less than 10mins, I voted that I would pay $5 but honestly this would need to be for something special!
There were other great film makers, but I really liked the Collective / Anthill stuff.
It wasn't long after that they said there wasn't enough money in pay-to-view to make cool MTB films anymore, so they looked for Sponsors and put them out monetised on YouTube.
I would pay for great MTB films again, but I don't know if it would work, it's hard to judge quality of content even with trailers and with everyone having 4K Gopros, Drones and an endless line-up of top riders willing to send it for exposure - how are film makers going to find something new and fresh to make.
A story would actually help, if they didn't just put out the usual chat.
Me: clank clank smack crash. “F-that for now, where’s the bar?”
And that is the Difference between pros and mortals.
Road fools (has a story), Anthem, Electronical (both amazing), or documentary style (Unfold story of British Mountain biking, or I love my bicycle (FBM)).
But seriously, I’d pay just to finance those poor BMXers so they can finally buy and wear a helmet.