Red Bull Releases Statement on a Women's Category at Rampage

Sep 22, 2023 at 13:42
by Brian Park  
Photo: Robin O'Neill / Pinkbike

Red Bull Rampage is the largest, most important freeride mountain bike event in the world. Rampage historically hasn't included a separate women's category, but Red Bull has been promoting the development of women's freeride through a non-competition event called Formation that's held on the same terrain. This year Formation was cancelled, leading some to speculate that Rampage might include women. When the rider list came out last week, we were disappointed to see neither a women's field nor a public plan to integrate women into the event.

Red Bull today has responded to our quest for comment with the following statement:

"Red Bull Rampage is the most difficult freeride mountain bike competition in the world. For this reason, a selection panel invites the best 18 riders globally to compete.

We are exploring with industry experts how we might develop a women’s category at Red Bull Rampage."
—Red Bull

Parsing this, and with the caveat that it's just my personal interpretation, I'm cautiously optimistic that Red Bull is committing to having women at Rampage next year. For more insight and context into the issue, we did an interview with women's Rampage-hopeful Vaea Verbeeck. I'd encourage everyone to read that for a lot more context and background to this.

Author Info:
brianpark avatar

Member since Dec 29, 2010
206 articles

  • 295 23
 "how we might develop a women's category"

considering the riders build the lines they want to ride... You'd think developing the category would entail inviting a list of women.
  • 99 142
flag ktownscarry (Sep 22, 2023 at 14:13) (Below Threshold)
 Am I missing something here? Its freeride not a race. Invite them. No gender is biologically better at hucking off a cliff.
  • 115 52
 @MTBfloat: It is a contest, with points and winners. Pulling the most difficult stunts and landing them is greatly helped by upper body strength, which is not at all equally divided among genders.
  • 48 99
flag rideordie35 (Sep 22, 2023 at 14:31) (Below Threshold)
 @MTBfloat: Biological differences such as higher bone density, skeletal muscle strength, and testosterone would have nothing to do with more men being good at jumping off cliffs…
  • 58 4
 @rideordie35: Gravity/physics would like a word....
  • 7 40
flag rideordie35 (Sep 22, 2023 at 14:40) (Below Threshold)
 @Wetworks73: Do explain, I’m keen to hear what you have to say.
  • 19 8

Why are they better then?
  • 45 38
 @Garradmiller: I was being sarcastic. Men are significantly stronger than women and are much more likely to be comfortable accepting high risk of bodily injury.
  • 141 35
 They have invited the best 18 riders in the world without any gender bias. I don't see why there is such a problem with this!
  • 43 28
 @rideordie35: then explain every woman that lines up in the same start gate as every man at the DH World Cup races. There’s not women’s track or women’s lines. They all send the same shit, and finishing time or not their bodies are absorbing the same impact and they assume the same physical risk.
  • 65 25
There are some lines on a WC track that only a very small handful of the men hit.

If you want to compare racing as a benchmark and the women and men competed together, Marine won with a 3.47, the 18th places rider was baptiste on a 3.25. Meaning Marine would not be in the top 18. (That exuded juniors). Marine was outside the top 130 in qualies if gender bias is removed (almost last).

I am all for inclusive events but sometimes we need events that are the pinnacle of a discipline to push the envelope, creativity and move that discipline forward. No bias, just the very best (who are invited because the list isn't the very best or Brendog and Gee wouldn't be there).
  • 132 15
 @betsie: So then let's just cancel women's sports, right?

No one is saying that the women should be competing against the men at Rampage (I don't think). Women are saying they want the opportunity to compete against each other on the same venue, like they do in DH, or the Freeride World Tour in skiing/snowboarding, etc.

"But the weather conditions barely allow for two runs from the guys who are already there..." Then add another freaking day, like they should have been doing for years.

Women's freeride isn't going to get bigger/better if there aren't opportunities for women to push each other.
  • 16 32
flag betsie (Sep 22, 2023 at 15:59) (Below Threshold)
 @jsnfschr: it's a small hill that is littered with lines already, the idea of rampage is to be the pinnacle of the sport.
Women are pushing each other, that is what formation was about which is great to see.
Women have been at nines etc too and pushing their limits.
Women have also ridden most of the hardline features.

But this is rampage, honestly, even Brendog and Gee being there is a bit of a sponsor plug, neither has qualified for a world cup and neither of them is going to do any kind of trick off something big compared to where freeride is now.
Rampage may struggle to get riders in lower positions, who knows.

It's not about women in sport, it's about rampage, the pinnacle of freeride... or is it slopestyle, sand bags and grooming these days .. lol
  • 31 6
 @jsnfschr: @jsnfschr: Absolutely. Nail on head there.

Reading and parsing the statement, RedBull is not saying that they expect to have an "open combined" one size fits all category for everyone, but a "Women's category"; women building their own lines and competing against each other, not the men.

And before anyone gets on their highly ontological high horse about inclusivity, are there enough trans freeriders who could grace Rampage in an open category?

And just so everyone knows, I am a very firm advocate of three categories in sports; men, women and open. I will not engage in discussions on the subject here on Pinkbike; it's a waste of everyone's time IMHO.
  • 8 3
 @rideordie35: No need for the snark. You stated higher bone density (heavier frame), skeletal muscle strength (greater muscle mass, again, heavier), and testosterone (which contributes greatly to the two) have nothing to do with men being good jumping off cliffs. My original answer spoke to those factors contributing greatly to how men are able to take advantage of the physics of going downhill. That said, I suppose you have something of a point as women could create their own lines to mask(?) these (dis)advantages. But if they did, then they would basically be creating their own....category. Which I for one, I think is a great idea. Let women be amazing women again.
  • 21 28
flag BarryWalstead (Sep 22, 2023 at 16:54) (Below Threshold)
 @jsnfschr: it's an interesting question, and I think that literally no one here believes a women is likely to ever beat the men is telling.
Biologically we aren't the same, and in literally every culture around the work men do the more physical and dangerous work. Not saying there aren't the outliers, but 99.99% men in the most risky jobs with the highest chance of injury. Take rally racing; super risky, incredibly physically demanding and basically no women in that sport. Are the banned? Not at all, maybe they just don't really aspire to do it as much.

Take Rampage, it's a freeride event and speed doesn't matter, so why couldn't a woman win it? Because no one believes they will be BETTER than the best. Better than you and me by miles, but not willing to do the biggest drops, biggest hucks.

In an event that only invites the best 18, what 'better' male rider should lose their place to a lesser rider that happens to pee sitting down?
  • 6 14
flag Mtbdialed (Sep 22, 2023 at 17:07) (Below Threshold)
 @ak-77: correct on all accounts, which is why, in this arena and this level of difficulty and danger, perhaps having a dumbed down version for women that cannot ride the lines the men are riding, is shortsighted. If a woman has proven she can ride all the same lines with the same amplitude of tricks, Invite the shit out of her/them.....

it's really that easy.
  • 37 1
 @BarryWalstead: Again, literally no one is arguing that the women should be competing AGAINST the men.

Women can't beat men in basketball, so they can't play on the same court. Women can't beat men in soccer, so they can't play on the same pitch. Women don't jump off the same cliffs, so they can't ski/snowboard the same mountain. Women aren't faster in DH, so they can't use the same track.

Women want to compete against each other in the same venue. There isn't any reason why there couldn't/shouldn't be a women's category in the same event. Maybe there weren't enough for a category 5 years ago, but women's freeride has blown up and they want to ride. Let them.
  • 27 36
flag BarryWalstead (Sep 22, 2023 at 17:25) (Below Threshold)
 @jsnfschr: and that's literally my point.

This isn't a 'mens only' event.

It's a 'best in the world' event.

You're arguing for reducing that level to add women. And creating sex based classification. Right now anyone good enough gets invited.
You say 'Women don't jump off the same cliffs, so they can't ski/snowboard the same mountain.'
And that's quite literally what many of us are saying here. They can't do these tricks, they can't pull these airs, none. So keep on working and someday maybe a woman win get to compete.
  • 5 2
 One of the major concerns of this particular event (I’ve been to many) are the major time constraints to try and get two runs. Half the riders don’t even take the second but by the time the winds come up, there’s not much time especially when someone has to get airlifted which can take over an hour. This is a one day event and having a. Whole new category will certainly take planning.
  • 26 2
 @BarryWalstead: I’m assuming you’re choosing to ignore the sarcasm. Men and women drop in from the same gate at the FWT and then pick their own lines.

By expecting women to perform at the same level as the men, you are literally keeping it a “men’s only” event.

“Until they start keeping up the the men, the 100m is a ‘best in the world’ event”, not a ‘men’s only’ event.

Why is classification based on sex a bad thing? We have it in every other sport. Why is Rampage different? How is that “reducing” the event?
  • 8 12
flag PauRexs (Sep 22, 2023 at 18:10) (Below Threshold)
 @jsnfschr: rampaging it's not a sport... is suposed to be the craziest event that defies death.
  • 15 0
 @SDGRYDER: solution: two day event.

the weather delays is always the worst part
  • 9 7
 @pathopkins: They're all significantly slower, and no they don't send the same things as the men. It's not the the bike park jumps on race tracks I'm talking about but all the other tech high risk features and lines, they do not his the same lines at the same speed.
  • 16 6
 @pathopkins: The may ride the same course but they most definitely do not "all send the same shit,". If you think their bodies take the same impact and physical risk we're not watching the same world cup races
  • 9 3
 @plyawn: very true. Lots of the women take b-lines around bigger features especially in practice. I’ve even heard the elite men talk about the fact that the tracks need to be made with features that will make the women’s field look cooler to watch, because when they’re having to go around jumps they can’t clear or are casing tables it makes it less interesting to watch. Facts are facts, and if the womens’ times are slower than the men, then how are they going to hit the features that are designed for the tippy-top speeds of the mens’ times?

In my opinion same thing applies with Rampage. A women’s category doesn’t equate to putting women on the same hill with the guys, it equates to letting the women build the lines that push them to their limits relative to their abilities.
  • 6 8
 @jsnfschr: who is going to pay for it?
  • 6 7
 @i-like-toytles: Yeah I really don't see the point in putting them on the Mens hill, which is already loaded with features, often the men are linking their features together and using old features to link their runs. Putting the women into that environment is just going to mean they have to ride around a shit load of features to get to theirs, a lot of these features you can't just ride around them either. They are also going to have to work twice as hard to make their lines rideable for their level because they can't just send it through the dangerous stuff the same. I think they should have an event but it isn't as simple as just putting them in with the men and hoping for the best. We saw how these exact women went at Hardline and Rampage is harder than Hardline.
  • 2 1
 @ak-77: I’d invite an open co-ed competition but it wouldn’t be fair. Yes, it’s freeride but I just saw a video on YouTube about the first woman to land a 720 on a skateboard. It’s a combination of physical strength and psychology, methinks.
  • 14 4
 @Mtbdialed: part of the problem is also viewership. Unfortunately for female athletes, females don’t watch a lot of sports compared to guys. And guys dont watch as much female sports. Its truly a serious bummer for female athletes but they are asking a profit motivated company to take considerable financial risks. Women free riders would like to bank on this as a huge opportunity to grow their interest but its not at all guaranteed. Not to mention they are completely off the hook if they don’t generate the attention or viewership they want. And that cannot be said for the athletes that were on the hook to grow the event to what it is today. I think the athletes and the organizers can have an adult conversation about this before the mob starts morally condemning rb.
  • 13 25
flag akbikegirl (Sep 22, 2023 at 22:39) (Below Threshold)
 @BarryWalstead: your misogyny is showing
  • 2 0
 Alas, we must explore with industry experts first.
  • 28 16
 If you want to be the best you've got to beat the best.

A decision has been made to keep this event as a showcase of the best riders. All humans are welcome to demonstrate their credentials in that regard.

If there's a separate women's category, which is a second string obviously, should we stop at two categories? Why not have a junior category too for men and women? Four categories. And another for the under 15s maybe. How about one for dogs, and one for cats?

There is great cost requiring great investment. Businesses want a return in investment. Who is meant to watch the women's category? I only know a handful of men who casually watch women's football. I don't know any women who watch it including my own wife and daughter. They're not interested, and they wouldn't be interested if it was at the same level as men's sport which it isn't. So who is it for?

Is this event meant to be a spectacle of the best athletes or is it meant to be a pandering to EDI?
  • 13 18
flag jaame (Sep 22, 2023 at 23:28) (Below Threshold)
 Don't get me wrong I'm all for inclusion at the right time and place. I love riding with my son but I have to go slowly to include him. I love playing cricket with my kids but I have to go steady so they can hit the ball. It's all good. There is a time and a place when I want to bowl my hardest, smash the ball down the line, or rip top to bottom runs at the limit of my ability. Those are not times to be thinking about inclusion. They are times when I'm performing at my peak and pushing my personal limits. I'm not going to include my kids in such activities. Asking RedBull to add categories is a similar concept. Watering down the essence of what the sport is. It's an event to showcase the best. Period. Any type of human is welcome to compete for a spot at rampage but instead of trying to change the event to suit you, change yourself to suit the event. And by that I mean improve your skills so y9i can qualify fair and square, not on a handicap. Ride in peace.
  • 1 2
 @pathopkins: and if it was just one event , after the first ever race the women would never qualify again such is the disparity ‍♂️
  • 5 3
 @BarryWalstead: it’s not a best in the world event though is it. Some of the best in the world have chosen not to bother attending
  • 2 1
 @pioterski: that’s code for work out how to make money from the event
  • 3 2
 @jaame: But some of the best riders have chosen not to bother this year.
  • 11 12
 @akbikegirl: You need to learn what misogyny means. It's got nothing to do with his comment. But go ahead and try to redefine a word by misusing it.
  • 6 3
 @pathopkins: you’re actually proving the opposite point… they line up on the same course, but largely due to how physical the course is they are not remotely competitive to men’s times. It comes down to physical strength and fatigue. Not a knock but point is you’d have the same exact gap in results at rampage, so they would need to figure out some way tweak the rampage format for women riders… or hell maybe the women free riders don’t care and while they wouldn’t be scoring competitive just the principle of competing in the same event is the point. I don’t have a dog in the fight other than it’s awesome to watch progression in all categories…
  • 12 1
 I think the main problem is logistics. As of today, Rampage is already extremely long event. Weather plays a big role in that, it is often windy, sometimes it's hard to get the second run. Developing women's category means shrinking men's category, simple as that. You cannot make it any longer and you cannot make it two days event and you cannot add 10 more lines on the mountain which is already crowded. So you can just shrink men's category like by 5 spots. This on the other hand will result in a very fixed men's field, with no place for new people or you rule out some of the best guys to make place for newcomers. Effectively it's about sharing the money with women, because this is what "exposure" mentioned in the interview really means. Exposure in the media is simply money. So the women wants to become processional freeriders but the sport is a bit too niche for this.
  • 10 26
flag akbikegirl (Sep 23, 2023 at 9:39) (Below Threshold)
 @MikeGruhler: sit down lil Mikey, your misogyny is showing
  • 10 0
 Is there anything stopping a group of the best freeride women from just going out there, building lines, then doing their own competition? Why wait for Redbull? Why does Redbull need to be in control in the first place? Do women even want this because it seems to be 99.9% men arguing about this..
  • 8 0
 @jsnfschr: I can't figure out where these people are getting the idea that the women want to compete against the men? They simply want to compete against their own category. The way people are going on would make you think there's not difference in tiers in any sports at all.... like as if everyone at the top was born a professional and only they may compete.
  • 18 6
 @akbikegirl: How about you make a proper argument instead of just throwing the 'misogyny' card around? I may not agree with some of the points written above, but at least they are making points.
  • 19 7
 @akbikegirl: Just call everyone that disagrees with you a name. That is the adult way to handle things!!!
  • 11 12
 @akbikegirl: "girl" is an apt user name, as Woman is clearly too mature and respect worthy.

sit down little girl, no one cares what children have to say...
  • 8 16
flag akbikegirl (Sep 23, 2023 at 17:37) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtbdialed: I will treat them like adults when they stop acting like children.
  • 6 16
flag akbikegirl (Sep 23, 2023 at 17:39) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtbdialed: how does it feel to get triggered by a little girl?
  • 6 16
flag akbikegirl (Sep 23, 2023 at 17:39) (Below Threshold)
 @iamamodel: *misogynistic points
  • 14 8
 @akbikegirl: hardly triggered, sweetcheeks. Just pointing out the absurdity and childishness that is inherent in your comments.

When it's you that is name calling because others disagree with you? yeah.....projection much?
  • 8 0
 @jaame: it can showcase the best women as well as the best men. A lot of sports seem to do that. And people might argue that people of either sex aren't interested in women's sport but that's a bit of a chicken and egg argument. I think the viewing figures for women's soccer, tennis and track are climbing rapidly but no one can watch women if there are no contests or if women continue to be shut out so it will take time to build.
  • 5 4
 @singletrackjamaica: clearly most people aren't interested in seeing the best men or women. Most people don't discriminate on gender. They just want to see the best exponent of that thing. End of story. When the best freeriders are all women, all overweight, all ginger or whatever; the entire field would rightly be comprised entirely of that demographic, as it is currently all men. Because the best are all men. "Period".
  • 5 8
 @akbikegirl: Check your tiny little ego at the door mam. When you learn what real misogyny is you'll understand how ignorant your statements are. Here I'll help...
Misogyny: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
Chauvinism: the unreasonable belief in the superiority or dominance of one's own group or people, who are seen as strong and virtuous, while others are considered weak, unworthy, or inferior.
Now, maybe if you said chauvinism I'd be a bit less bothered but you'd still be wrong with your assessment. Women have Foundation, keep it going and in a few years time it will progress into the pinnacle of female MTB'ing. That would be way cooler and more respected by riders across the board. There will always be a gap in skills between male and female freeriders.
  • 9 0
 @MikeGruhler: Hard to make that happen when RB cancels Foundation without an explanation or an alternative, no?
  • 4 3
 Well maybe if they fits into 18 worlds best there is no problem.
  • 4 5
 @bok-CZ: exactly. Its's not "Men's Rampage". It's just Rampage. A showcase of the best.
  • 2 2
 @jaame: yes, same as in F1
  • 4 5
 @jsnfschr: Fortunately a private company doesn't have to explain itself to a bunch of people who have no clue what it takes to do these events. Given that there in the business to make money then one has to assume they weren't making enough on formation to justify the expense. They wouldn't cancel the event if it was profitable, or maybe they want to put together a better package to draw in more viewers and make it sustainable. Bottom line: They don't hold these events out of the kindness of their heart.
  • 2 2
 @betsie: totally agree
  • 7 1
 @MikeGruhler: Your last few posts have mentioned that women have Foundation and should use that to get experience. Which they can't, because it isn't an option.
  • 4 3
 @jsnfschr: that's true, but as many have mentioned it was some self-defeating choices that contributed to it ending.
The women chose not to have it televised live, they wanted control on how their story was told, but means limiting media and limiting access to the venue. It was not public and barely broadcast unless you went and found it.
How can you then complain it isn't around anymore? It was a money loser from it's inception.

If these ladies want to go rip they can make some sick videos and blow us all away. Don't need RB for that.
  • 4 4
 @ak-77: Have you seen the variances amongst the male riders past and present? To say Cam Zink who is ripped vs Kyle Strait who is kind of pudgy, not meant as an insult vs Brandon Semenuk who is a bit skinny, all have equal upper body strength is a stretch. There are several female riders completely equal in build to Semenuk. He is not a big guy. Women would also have the opportunity to build their own unique lines that might score more than the men who choose the biggest drops. Those haven't won lately anyway. Plus any freeride event that didn't automatically invite Brage Vestavik, the only guy in freeride history to land the Jah Drop, doesn't think clearly on who should compete or not.
  • 7 4
 @MTBfloat: you're forgetting that on average, a pound of muscle on a man is about 30-40% stronger, and has 25% more stamina than the same pound on a woman.

So two riders with identical builds, but one is a man and one is a woman, will not be equal in stength or stamina.
  • 6 2
 @MTBfloat: Yeah @Mtbdialed hit the nail on the head. There's a reason other sports are divided into men's and women's categories and not "body size" categories. Do you realize that Jackson Goldstone is probably the size of 80% of the women's DH category? Seems like his times are bit faster than theirs.

If you follow Brage at all you'll know that he has chosen not to compete and focus on making his own content at his own pace.
  • 6 6
 @MikeGruhler: thank you for mansplaining! Smile
  • 4 7
 @Mtbdialed: okay snowflake
  • 5 5
 @akbikegirl: No just explaining what certain words mean so you can make sure you use terms correctly when trying to attack people.
  • 5 0
 It is really that simple. Give them the platform and the progression will happen. They do it in the Natural Selection tour no problem
  • 4 5
 @MikeGruhler: thanks for mansplaining what mansplaining means
  • 2 6
flag Coldspringer (Sep 29, 2023 at 11:29) (Below Threshold)
 @MikeGruhler: @BarryWalstead: you think men are superior, cool story, I hope you get drawn and quartered but whatever. But now you tell us your beliefs are "not misogynistic* ?? I just don't understand. So many of us ride alone because of people like you in mtb. I haven't been on PB in ages, I come on here today just to find you. I took up alleycat racing. Where men, women, and queers ride the wrong way on f*cking highways, side by side, on brakeless bikes. Accepting the same risk, doing the same wild shit. Your mtb culture is shriveling up and dying, because it attracts only one type of man, and tells everyone else they are inferior.
  • 7 0
 @Coldspringer: men ARE, on average, physically stronger and superior in athletic endeavours, to women. If that's a pill you can't swallow, I feel bad for you.

Also, you sound insufferable. Lmfao
  • 4 0
 @Coldspringer: uh that form of racing should dangerous and a little crazy.
How do you figure mtb is dying or how do you decide I'm lousy to ride with? I encourage anyone I ride with to be kind, to wait for the slowest rider in the group and to be aware of anyone's limitations and work with them on that.

And you came on here to find me?
  • 8 0
 @Coldspringer: In over 30 years of riding and racing MTBs, I've never seen nor heard of any male discouraging any female. Ever. My fellow males have only ever encouraged, helped, taught, coached... everything we could (and can) do. Over the years I've lost count of my female riding buddies, the people you go on riding holidays and races and ride every weekend with. Your experience isn't the norm. I've talked to my female riding buddies and they themselves acknowledge they've only ever been encouraged. Nearly every MTBer I've come across, known or unknown, has been a pretty good person. Friendly, gregarious, helpful, encouraging. Australia, New Zealand, USA, France, Canada, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto.

By the way, I reread the comments of the two people you accused of misogyny - I couldn't find it. They said that men were 'superior'? No they didn't. Saying that a womens freeride event wasn't marketed well isn't misogyny. Don't cry wolf when there isn't one.
  • 5 0
 I once knew a chap called Paul, who was convinced no one liked him because he was short and ginger. He would make a point of accusing people of being gingerist if they didn't invite him out for drinks when they'd just met him. Eventually someone told him it wasn't because he was ginger, it was because he was a twat.
  • 1 1
 @iamamodel: I think your experience isn't the norm. Nearly every female rider I'm friends with and have ridden with have stories of "friendly" male riders who offer unsolicited advice, who suggest and point out the blue lines instead the black lines, "encouraging" comments that are actually patronizing, etc. I ride in an area where nearly half the riders are women and the support for the women's riding community is better than anywhere else I've seen or heard of (coming form the ladies). It's still there.

It's not always overt stuff from the bros, but the subtle behaviour and attitude. I don't most dudes are trying to be jerks, but I think most women want to be treated like just another rider, rather than a kid who's tagging along.
  • 7 0
 @jsnfschr: and this is a big part of why so many women I've met feel left out of the riding group. But not for the reasons you state, or the interpretation of those actions.
You know guys give each other unsolicited advice all the tomb right? We advise our male riding friends on the trails we believe are appropriate for them, give technique advice and generally try to encourage them not to go die on something too hard.
These aren't subtle 'mico-agressions' when a woman is nearby, but treating everyone equally.

Reality > Perception

And if your friends can learn to understand that they'll be happier people.
  • 3 0
 @BarryWalstead: it's easy to determine who is at my skill level, who is above and who is below. I was always try to get tips from someone better and give tips to someone less skilled. And not just at riding either.
  • 1 0
 @BarryWalstead: Nailed it. Everything.
  • 1 0
 @Coldspringer: Men are physically superior than women, that's a biological fact. Sorry, biological facts.
Interesting that you (apparently female) have been the only person on here to make a violent statement about 2 people being "drawn and quartered" good luck with that.
Men understand and respect you don't say shit like that without potential serious consequences. That's friendly advice, nothing more...for men or women... most people know this or have/will learn the hard way.
As far as the "racing" you speak of, that's called breaking the law and simply makes cyclists look disrespectful. Good luck at your next race. Try not to get smoked by a car or truck, riding illegally the wrong way down a highway without brakes. I must admit though, it does sound like fun but so do a lot of illegal activities that I would never consider doing. Your absolutely putting yours and the driver's life at risk for your own entertainment. Most people suck at driving, as well there's literally crazy people driving cars out there. Honestly, stay safe. I've known 2 people who've been killed by cars on bikes and I got my back wheel tagged at 17 and got away with my life for the first of many times till I stopped riding street about 5-6 years later.

What's hilarious, depending on where you are you could be possibly sued by the person that hits you riding recklessly the wrong way down the middle of the highway.
  • 95 7
 I’m just reading between the lines here but my interpretation is:

“Red Bull Rampage is the most difficult freeride mountain bike competition in the world (so difficult that even the strongest, best riders are getting seriously injured in this event). For this reason, a selection panel invites the best 18 riders globally to compete (if a women happens to be one of the best 18 riders in the world then they will get an invite).

We are exploring with industry experts how we might develop a women’s category at Red Bull Rampage (we will be using viewership data from the NBA/WNBA to determine if it’s in Red Bulls financial interest to include a women’s category in future rampage events)."
—Red Bull
  • 21 33
flag p1nkbike (Sep 22, 2023 at 14:55) (Below Threshold)
 that's it and it's true. it's not very PC to day these days but women (biological women) are weaker and finding ones that would do rampage at the same level is very hard.

unlike u I and so on redbull doesn't get free money so the event gotta make money. they obviously tried to get a women specific thing started and it didn't work out because it didn't make money. they will try again.

personally I liked the women formation event, while they weren't as crazy as some men they were pretty damn good and that was scary enough for me lol. I liked that much better than the women dh world up, which often feels a bit slow.
  • 12 12
 @p1nkbike: why do you think the event has to make money? It's marketing, ALL of their sports stuff is ultimately about selling energy drinks. RBR might make money, but I doubt they really care about that either way.
  • 24 4
 @charliewentoutside: hmmm….because that’s what businesses have to care about.
  • 30 9

The issue is, for marketing to work, you need people to actually point their eyeballs at it.

Unfortunately, when you look at the numbers, the amount of viewers drops substantially when men’s sports are compared to women’s sports. The average is about a 50% drop in viewers.

This years Tour De France is a perfect example. The men’s tour had roughly 42 million average viewers, the Femme tour averaged just below 20 million.

Now take a look at Rampage. It already has extremely low viewership numbers, 54,000 peak and 42,000 average. You now have to project that the already really low number is now going to be cut in half…

At this point you’re talking about a niche event in a small sport. Adding a women’s event isn’t realistically going to add viewers, from a marketing standpoint, it’s not an appealing endeavor.
  • 1 0
 @charliewentoutside: exactly.

Who watches rbr, who drinks rb.

That being said. Split over two days if there is a market for the womens event.
  • 19 3
 @wobblegoblin: This. As much as I hate big business that's what Redbull is. I am not privy to the numbers but I'm confident in assuming a large majority of Redbull's income comes from their male audience who (predominantly) watch the male events because that is the top of the sport. No one owes anyone an audience to something they don't want to watch, and no one is owed opportunities simply because they think they deserve it. If women think that they deserve more money and better opportunities, then more women need watch and support women's sports.
  • 24 12
 @captaindingus: the whole thing is ridiculous. If people were going to watch it they would watch it. The entitlement on display across women's sport is obnoxious, frankly.
"We're not as good and not many people watch us play but we deserve the same pay." Why do you deserve the same pay? You're not as good and you.dont create as much revenue, so why do you think you "deserve" the same pay? So entitled!
  • 6 1
 @charliewentoutside: because that’s the only reason RB are interested. Why do you think they walked away from DH? They got out bid, which is the same thing as saying they weren’t going to get the ROI they wanted at a higher price
  • 9 16
flag The-Spirit-of-Jazz (Sep 23, 2023 at 5:50) (Below Threshold)
 @jaame: women's arguments might include:

- they do the same work and make the same sacrifices for their sport.
- the patriarchy that defines "best" and "good" and what generates revenue is prejudicing the pay they get.
  • 10 11
 @jaame: @jaame: OR it could be that because women don't get the same pay they aren't able to devote as much to their sport, and they constantly have to deal with jerks calling them entitled. It always blows my mind that people can look at the last 100+ years of women advocating for the same things as men and say "oh yeah, those men were wrong to deny women the right to vote/ get an education/ compete in sports/ be in the army etc., but I'm not like that! I'm reasonable! This specific issue is where women's equality should stop!"
  • 15 9
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: they don't do the same work. It's not the same job if the job is competing against the best in the world at that sport. If you want to get paid for being the best you have to be the best. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. They ain't beating the best because they're not playing the best.
If we can agree that the point of paid competition is to win, then the women in pretty much all sports are not able to perform at a level that deserves the same pay. They don't play at the top level because they're not as good.
If the case is that sport is for entertainment and revenue generation then whoever brings in the most money deserves the most pay.
That's unlikely to be women in most cases because they're a sideshow. Riding on the coat tails of men's sport. That's not sexist, it's the objective reality.
When they're as good we can have an open field and the best gets paid the most. That's the only way to make it fair.
It is absolutely not fair to pay someone the same for doing a lesser version of the same job title.
  • 7 2
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: I’m sure that’s true but that’s irrelevant. Sponsors want the exposure per $. They don’t care how hard someone works if they meet the ROI they are interested if they don’t they arent
  • 16 3
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: ultimately life isn't fair. If redbull could make money with a women's event they absolutely would, there's no way redbull is biased against women when they include them in almost everything else and sponsor a ton of women. You can look at modeling, women make far more. Is that a matriarchy or is someone holding men down there, or is it just life's differences? If a male model said "I deserve as much pay as the top female, I put in all the work too" we would rightly call him out for his bs.
  • 8 6
 @DylanH93: frankly I hate the genderification of these arguments.
It's simple economics. Where someone is worth the same that person gets paid the same. If you're getting paid less than someone else in the same role (which happens all the time in all industries and across all demographics) that's because someone signing on the line has decided you're worth less. If you're killing everyone in the same role and ask for more you will probably get more. You may have to get another job offer first to increase your bargaining power but you will most likely get a bump if you're worth it.
Rampage is glorified advertising. I'm sure they're doing their market research. No one in a capitalist world is ever going to say "OK we have this product that we advertise in this sporting spectacle. X demographic watches it and X demographic buys our product. X demographic wants to watch group A competing, so let's pay group B that pretty much no one cares about watching for whatever reason the same money as group A because equality is more important than our profits".
At least I doubt that would ever happen.
  • 12 5
 @jaame: there's also this strange element where people just love to be angry about something. If redbull does a women's event and someone gets hurt, they'll be screaming "wtf redbull why would you do this?!" Perpetual outrage is our modern culture. If a group of women want to do this, no ones stopping them from going out there and building lines then riding them. Tons of youtubers have done it. Redbull doesn't control the state of Utah..
  • 12 16
flag The-Spirit-of-Jazz (Sep 23, 2023 at 12:10) (Below Threshold)
 @jaame: ".....they're sideshow. Riding on the coat tails of mens sport".

I'm sorry buddy that sounds awfully sexist and saying it ain't sexist right after doesn't change that.

I agree about the commercials of it all. But gender pay gaps outside of sport exist where there is demonstrable equivalency in the work done.

I'm not saying same pay all round is right, I am saying calling it entitlement to want fairer pay denies the prejudice women experience when it comes to pay.
  • 9 12
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: 100% agree, that dude is just blatantly sexist and trying to rationalize it away. Plenty of women in sports pull in more attention and advertising than men and still have to fight against sexist morons who don't think they deserve their spots (US Women's soccer is a great example.)
  • 8 7
 @Portland-maine: without looking it up name 3 US Women’s soccer players names.
  • 7 6
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: I think the women should do their own version of Rampage. They don't really need Redbull in the first place. They can go out to Virgin whenever they want, build lines, and film it. Redbull doesn't control Virgin, Utah. But the gender pay gap is a myth, I only mention it because many people are unaware of this. You can only show it if take all men/women and compare that to the total money they make. Problem is people choose different jobs, as is their right. When you control for a specific job, in many cases women actually make more. Two people may both work 40hrs a week but if one is a cashier and one is a surgeon of course they'll make different amounts. Men also tend to work longer hours and do more overtime. Just because there's a difference doesn't mean it's some evil conspiracy. For example, medium annual income in the US, Asians actually make more on average than white people. Is this a conspiracy against white people or maybe these two groups make different choices?
  • 6 2
 @DylanH93: I don't know the numbers in the case of US. But in my country (NL), this has been well researched, comparing like-for-like jobs and there is a gender pay gap.
As for women doing their own version of Rampage, that misses the point I think. It's about showing all the girls in the world that freeriding can be something for them, too. Without the RedBull PR machine that's a lot less effective. Any of the women that would be eligible for the woman's category in Rampage are already throwing themselves off cliffs and filiming it, just like the men.
  • 6 9
Of course it’s not the same starting point for women and men in Mountainbike History.
While men have been providing less care work for decades, women have been doing it - that’s a fact. While men have been happily doing sports, women have had to do the care work, for decades.
Who is physically stronger, should not play a role at all!
Give every human the same chance! And since women do not have the same chance and starting point - for centuries! - it can not be any harm to give all humans the same possibilities.
Especially mountain bike! WTF?! I am ashamed to read such selfish "justifications" in the Mountainbike community.

Here is a nice study on care work:
(Of course you will find a way to translate it, or even better: find one of onethousand English studies)

I wish you nevertheless a beautiful day and hopefully some fresh air and beautiful trails to be able to determine that such a sport should be for all people, even on the rampage site.
  • 8 4
 @THFL: then explain why there is such a distinct difference between my daughter’s 10u soccer team and the boys team??? Being physically stronger makes a world of difference in freeride mountain biking.
  • 7 3
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: dude no different than any car racing event. The other classes are all a side show with no TV coverage except the main event. Most sports are like that. Main event and side show.

It is up to you and me to raise women up not corporations. My granddaughter rips and I provide her everything she needs to compete in the sports she wants. That is the first step.
  • 8 4
 @wobblegoblin: it’s not about the difference because of strength and so blablabla on.
It’s about the same chance!
As you mentioned: there is a club for a 10 year old girl. That’s perfect!
But there is no „league“ or „club“ - call it what you want - for women in the rampage style.
  • 3 3
 @Portland-maine: um you are comparing a sport where men and women are separate. Everyone here is fighting for women to compete in the same event.

And your comparison is ridiculous. Women in soccer cannot compete with men best vs best on the field or with advertising or in their bank accounts. When as many people watch women's soccer as men's then they will earn the same. Until then the money isn't there. Sponsors don't give money away they expect a return. Whether that is clicks or sales.

In the meantime raise the women up who you have in your life.
  • 9 5
 @ak-77: so there's a gender pay gap in the Netherlands, does that mean discrimination is happening or maybe there's more to the story? Does the existence of an inequality necessarily mean something sinister is going on?

What girl/woman ever thought they weren't allowed to get into freeriding? Is Rampage really making that much of a difference here? There are plenty of freeriding women on youtube, Rampage hasn't held them back. Further, every time this "issue" comes up I never see the women who are apparently the ones angry, it seems to be all men.
  • 1 0
 @fabwizard: I got no beef with redbull about this issue.

Agree with what you say about kids.
  • 4 6
 @DylanH93: there have been studies in your country and mine, that eliminate the variables and show the gender pay gap. It exists.

Women get paid less..... just for being women.

I don't know what the answer for redbull is...I also don't gave any problem with redbull about this.
  • 2 4
 @DylanH93: "Further, every time this "issue" comes up I never see the women who are apparently the ones angry, it seems to be all men." There seem to be a fair lot of people "being angry" about this here in the comments, who are just usernames on the internet, what makes you assume they are all men?
  • 5 1
 @THFL: Yes they had an event, it was called Formation. How about fighting for that.
  • 7 5
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: still trying to push that pay gap narrative. It's been proven untrue for quite some time. Maybe research without bias and you'll find how that math is twisted.
  • 5 7
 Almost everyone I work under is female. Females do well compared to males in all industries except sport, and deservedly so. I don't see a man or a woman at work. I see a competent fellow human. Women are a lot better than men at a lot of things. MTBing is not one of them.
  • 3 1
 @MikeGruhler: I am genuinely interested for the other narrative please share.
  • 8 3
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: even USA Today has debunked the gender pay gap myth:

There are countless sources that have dissected the numbers (that's just the first google result lol), you can only show a gap if you take out all the variables. Ask yourself, if corporations care about profit above all else, wouldn't they only hire women for high level positions if it would cost them less? And what about medium annual income in the US, Asians make more on average than white people. So are white people being discriminated against or do you only call out certain cases of inequity?
  • 5 3
 @donimo: pinkbike, as mtb in general, is dominated by dudes. It's mainly men getting upset here. If so many women really wanted this they would go and do it, they don't need men to lead them around like children. If you look at makeup tutorials on youtube, it's mainly women. Is that some sort of a problem or maybe men and women just have different interests? The differences between men and women aren't a bad thing in the first place..
  • 5 3
 @DylanH93: its always the same argument tbh. if you look at tennis "its too white!" but if you look at basket ball or american football, or european football/soccer its mainly blacks. Genetics are a real thing, just like gender. Some are better at some things so more interesting to watch.

But what's also a real thing is divide and conquer, works great on the population when you want to fully reinstate a ruling class. If you control the information, its easy!

I'll see you in the "under threshold" section
  • 2 2
 @DylanH93: Not quite what I was asking. I was wondering how come you (and many others based on comments) are so sure these comments are mainly coming from dudes? No, I'm not suggesting 90% of users here are women, not even 50%. But stating "facts" about how only middle-aged men are offended by these kind of issues, while - I'm assuming here - basing those comments on assuming a bunch of faceless, nameless, mostly genderless profiles here are indeed men is what's bothering me. Yes, it is likely a majority of people watching makeup tutorials on YouTube are women, and a majority of users on an MTB website are men. That doesn't mean it's only the men on the site talking when we're discussing stuff related to women.
  • 3 3
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: Do your own research, its not hard to find when you actually look for it.
  • 7 3
 @DylanH93: the source in that article (payscale) says there is a gender pay gap.
  • 5 3
 @MikeGruhler: all the sources that come up about debunking it are from the anti-feminist/incel/right wing zone.

I don't call that objective but I can guess why they may appeal to you based on your comments elsewhere on this page.

I would still be interested in an "objective" source.
  • 4 2
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: I mean, linking to an opinion piece (even clearly labelled as such) and calling it "debunking" kinda already suggested at his level of research, expertise and experience on the issue...
  • 3 4
 @p1nkbike: thank you! I'd be ok with it if there were consistency but its the changing standards that drive me crazy. If people were mad that mtb has more men than women, and mad that modeling has more women then men, I'd at least get it. Either be mad at inequity, or look into the nuances, but the picking and choosing is so annoying. You're definitely right about the whole divide and conquer. It's all about causing division and anger. Instead of men and women realizing they aren't in a battle against each other, people want to rile everyone up and keep them fighting. Heaven forbid we ever look into bigger problems, be mad at your neighbor for having slightly different beliefs.
  • 3 1
 @donimo: I'm saying it's mostly men getting upset. You don't see women losing their shit because makeup tutorials have more women then men. I'm criticizing men here not women.
  • 5 5
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: the whole point is you can only show a gap if you take away all nuance. As soon as you look into things like differences of career choices, taking time off for family issues, overtime, etc the gap disappears. If I'm running a company and can get the exact same quality of work from women vs men but for a cheaper price, I'm hiring all women lol. Somehow that doesn't seem to be the case. It's a great technique politically to keep people angry and riled up though. Gotta keep men and women angry at each other..
  • 2 3
 @DylanH93: You're just not understanding the question, or don't want to answer it. Why do you assume it's not the (few) women on Pinkbike "losing their shit" here in the comments, but "all men"? Unless you believe there are no women hanging out at Pinkbike at all? Where does this... information/ feeling come from, that it's mostly men getting upset? I mean of course if you mainly hang out with men, they're the ones you see commenting on any issue. If you personally don't see (or don't want to see) women commenting on the issue, perhaps somewhere else too than Pinkbike, doesn't mean they aren't there talking about it. (My poll group is small, but personally I've seen the Rampage/ women topic being brought up on social media mainly by people who I know to be women, maybe 80% women and 20% men. So I guess similarly I could claim it's mainly women who are upset about this.)
  • 1 0
 @DylanH93: it's the Internet....we'd all get along fine and be more moderate in person
  • 3 3
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: the fact you label sources with discriminatory terms because they don't align with your opinions shows how ignorant you really are. There's no gap, just different choices. Read the article, read the research or do you have a nice little box to place Harvard in as well. There's tons of articles and plenty of research debunking the idea.
  • 2 4
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: Here's the easiest way to understand. As a father I work 40-50hrs per week w\o OT but it's flat rate work so I can easily get paid for 60hrs. My wife works 38-40hrs because we have 3 kids and she handles with help from another mom picking up and dropping off both families children from school and sports. We both make the same hourly but I earn more because I work more, that's the sacrifice alot of men make for their family. This is not a right wing, incel anti-feminist viewpoint. See how simple that is to understand. As well the laws in the US do not allow it. If it was as bad as people like you seem to believe then there would be widespread litigation across this entire country.
  • 4 2
 I would love to see the stats from PB on the number of active users that are male Vs female. I doubt they will ever publish it because they don't want to justify why 20% of content is female focussed when only 1% of active users are female.
  • 3 1
 @MikeGruhler: that's transport operators in one state.
  • 5 3
 @MikeGruhler: there IS litigation for the reason of the law. Its just very hard to prove

A friend of mine did prove it and won and now doesn't have to work again due to the size of her payout. She was fighting an employer who had all the means and will to resist.

Check your own ignorance by looking up how many cases there are. There wouldn't be a law if it wasn't needed.

I understand family dynamics. Is it really your partners choice to look after the kids more than you do, or it is yours based on your views about the roles of women?
  • 2 0
 @jaame: I think this would indeed be interesting, for a number of reasons. Although Pinkbike can't simply "publish it" without a poll or something, which then again would be just as inaccurate as users now choosing what gender they want to put in their profile if any.

Not commenting on the proportion of "female focused" content, or how that's determined. Or how much of it is intended to maybe lure more women in than just serve the existing reader base.
  • 7 5
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: You have no clue what you're talking about. Did you even read the research or just the title? Did you even go through the article explaining what the research found. I'm betting on no based on your week ass reply. My wife, who's dream was to be a wife and mother made her own choices. I couldn't work for almost a year due to injury and guess what, I did all the things she would handle normally so she could put in extra hrs to get extra money to help cover bills. Let's not leave out that I do all the cooking and food shopping along with taking care of our house. When I finally get back to work and I take on 50 hr work weeks in 4 days and on Fri my day off I handle the kids. You're are clearly a deranged feminist who thinks all men a bad based on your laughable and illogical comments. Get f'ed , it sounds like you could use a good piece.
  • 6 6
The paper is titled "why do women earn less? Evidence from bus and train operators"

I read through and it's just about workers in one transport authority. The covering opinion piece is a....opinion piece

i feel sorry for your partner based on how angry you have got so quickly about the idea women may legitimately experience prejudice.

It also sounds like you need a break buddy.
  • 3 6
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: Never said they don't receive prejudice. I simply stated the pay gap is not how it's portrayed in the media. The opinion piece you you try and discredit literally quotes the researchers conclusion that the gap in pay has to do with choices that women make versus men. The fact you completely ignore that part of the conversation makes your opinion moot. Not to overlook the fact that men simply work more then women, therefore men as a whole earn more money. My 10yr old son could easily understand that math, not sure why a bunch of adults can't see it. I'm only angry cause ass hats like yourself throw around discriminatory labels on people because of there opinions or better yet you ask for sources and when there provided you just repeat the same ideological bullshit over and over. Along with trying to twist peoples words to fit your negative views of men. It's gross and disingenuous at best.
  • 3 4
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: You do realize that, the reason which is explained for studying that transportation authority is because they can do a direct apples to apples comparison of men and women employed at the same time and the same job. You understand why? Because that is literally what the discussion is about, men's pay vs women's pay. Or do you think a Male Dr's pay should be compared to a Female waitress's pay? Cause that's what you're basically saying by trying to discredit the Harvard research paper and the article breaking down the research paper to make it easier to digest. You're simply biased, accept it and move on. I've gone through these studies for both sides and the only one the comes to a logical answer is there's not a pay gap. There is an earnings gap but that is completely different math that can also be explained through the fact that more men work more hrs therefore they make more as a whole. Women simply make different choices when it comes to working. Is there woman out there getting paid less than they should, sure. There's also a lot 9f men getting paid less than they deserve as well. This is not a one way discussion. Work hard ask for a raise or find a new job. No one is entitled to anything, companies are in the business to make money and if they think they could make more by employing women then are workforce would be a majority of women and it's not.
  • 3 1
 @FrankS29: You numbers are out to lunch, Rampage is the highest viewed event that Red Bull does on a regular basis. The only thing to eclipse that in one year was Stratos. And RB basically developed their own space program for that...
If you were right, that means my Rampage POV videos get 10x the broadcast?
  • 4 3
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: My wife chose to be a mother and a wife because that's what she's always wanted her entire life. It's got nothing to do with me and my views, she's fully capable of making her own choices and has. We all make sacrifices for our families, mine involves risk of injury or death on a daily basis working construction. Her's involves time, not to mention she dreams of being a full time mom but unfortunately I don't earn enough for a family of five. Traditional family roles are a good thing, not negative like some people here would like everyone to believe.
  • 1 0
 @mitch1616: Broadcast views and YouTube views are completely different things.

Yes, a POV run on YouTube could get more views than a broadcast. The Broadcast number is important because it's not only unique views, but it's people that care enough about the event to tune in live. It's a very important number to get a good idea of how many people actually care about the event.

If a video is on YouTube for 1-2 years and collects 400,000 total views, that's solid but not great numbers either. It's harder to take those views seriously because those views include little 14 year old Timmy watching the same video 37 times...
  • 56 9
 So the company that has done the most for women’s free ride is now singled out as not doing enough? Makes no sense
  • 15 6
 People are stupid.
  • 18 5
 I'd like to see a list of women sponsored by RedBull so these people would stop saying so much BS! So many women out there have a living doing what they love because of RedBull. The fact is RedBull Rampage isn't a place for participation trophies.
  • 18 3
 Our modern culture has an addiction to being outraged.
  • 7 0
 @DylanH93: How dare you!
  • 46 5
 There is a sneer in that statement. Basically they say that the women aren't good enough to be among the top riders. Which is true of course, but this is exactly the reason why they should have a separate women's category. In the few sports where women and men perform equally (eg equestrian) there is no women's category.
  • 29 22
 Then why not a junior category? Why not a category for you and me?
It is assumed that limits are reasonable, and they say the 18 absolute best. So far that doesn't include women, and biologically it might never just because of the physical demands of this course.
No gender discrimination, just gotta be the best of the best.
  • 18 1
 @BarryWalstead: unlike juniors, a women’s category would be comprised of adults who are entirely capable of making a decision to participate or not for themselves.
  • 16 7
 @BarryWalstead: It is complex, and it has to do with the role sports play in our society.
If it was only entertainment, it would be different. But top athletes are role models, especially to those who practice the sport at the grass roots level. If we want mountain biking to be a sport where everyone is welcome to join, we should have men and women competing at the top level events in every category, including freeride.
  • 10 1
 @BarryWalstead: to be fair Whistler Crankworx tried the “open to everyone” qualifier concept for the 07 slopestyle event and it did not go very well… If I remember correctly there were at-least two riders who were seriously injured. I remember watching it and it being nothing but absolute carnage. I can’t imagine it going any better at a rampage venue.
But that being said I think they are more than capable of inviting a list of professional female athletes to the event.
  • 1 4
 @CaptainBLT: I wasn't bringing consent into it, just that why aren't people complaining about that as well? If you only have 18 riders what qualified rides get skipped?
  • 16 4
 @CaptainBLT: to properly showcase the women's field they need their own venue. formation was genuinely awesome and while there is no argument that those girls are damn talented on bikes, the level of riding we saw from them was the highest level of riding we saw at that venue. it did not have the chance to be eclipsed by anything better.

if you have a field of 10 and there are maybe 2 or 3 women who can safely make it down the Rampage venue without riding around most of the features, how does that cast any credibility to the womens field?. in the freeride world tour all genders ski and snowboard on the same venue; anyone who doesn't watch through rose coloured glasses can see the contrast in abilities and it makes the female competitors look like make-a-wish kids not professionals at the top of their sport. that comparison is impossible to ignore and once the men's categories have wrapped up i have no desire to spend any time watching another group do the same thing but be significantly worse at it.
  • 3 4
 @CaptainBLT: you’re out of your mind if you think that 14 to 18 year olds can’t consent to jumping off cliffs and going off. Big jumps on bikes. Spend one day in Whistler.
  • 3 4
 @ak-77: everyone IS welcome to join!
  • 2 3
 @LegitLegato: didn't Kyle Strait win Rampage when he was 16?
  • 9 6
 @captaindingus: exactly. If there is a women's event, who is it for? Who is meant to watch it? If ten thousand people watch it and the production cost is $600k, who foots the bill?
  • 5 1
 @BarryWalstead: Have you heard the term legal liability for minors
  • 2 0
 @ak-77: it is only entertainment. RB sell it as an entertainment show for those who don’t ride. All professional sport competes in the entertainment space
  • 4 2
 @jaame: Well, that's how I feel about it too. But telling someone they are welcome is not the same as making them feel welcome. Too often it's just: you're welcome to come and play with us, but this is how we do things here and if you don't like it, go home. Making someone feel welcome means making an effort, doing things you wouldn't normally do so the new person feels appreciated rather than tolerated.
More concretely, you can say 'sure, women can be part of rampage, all they need to do is be among the top 18 athletes in the world'. Or you can change the way you select for/organise the event to make sure that women are able to join.
  • 1 3
 Is there a category for male and female horses or a prefered gender for the horse in equestrian events? I have no idea but I expect male horses are stronger.
  • 1 0
 @singletrackjamaica: I think female horses are better actually!
  • 4 2
 @ak-77: it is but my responsibility to make anyone feel welcome except trainers of my family and people who work for me.
Anyone can go and buy a bike and rude it. When I started riding at ten years old, no one went out of their way to make me feel welcome. I did it because I wanted to.
My daughter doesn't want to do it no matter how much I try to persuade her.
Why is there an obsession with trying to make everyone the same, instead of accepting differences of interest and celebrating diversity?
  • 1 0
 @ak-77: friends of my family
  • 2 0
 @LegitLegato: I’m objecting to the infantilizing of adults who want to compete.
Even in whistler land of the shredder groms, the 14-18 year olds have to have a parent or guardian sign the waiver. Because unlike the women who are being shut out of rampage, those are kids who can’t consent on their own.
  • 2 2
 @CaptainBLT: they're not being shut out for being women. It's not a conspiracy. They're just not good enough to get in, in the current format where the organisers are trying to make the best spectacle.
  • 2 1
 I also didn't get invited to Rampage. Am I being "shut out"? No, I'm just not good enough to be included!
  • 37 1
 Don't ask Chris Ball for advice
  • 35 3
 Reality is that only a handful of the riders will compete for the win in a given year. Most of the riders there are to survive the event and push themselves. When Rdog was invited he had no intention of competing for the win. Women are 100% capable of building and riding a line. And honestly, what adds more to the event, the 18th place run, or a woman to root for?
  • 15 5
 Agreed. How many viable male winners are there in the field of 18? 5? 6?

The rest are pack fodder, so inviting women to participate in the main event (as start at least) seems like a no-brainer to me.
  • 13 0
 @pmhobson: Hello, can I just say 1 name here? Kelly McGarry. Did anyone expect him to win? Probably not. Did anyone expect his canyon gap backflip? Okay, some of the competitors knew what he was thinking, but to you and I watching on-line it was a shock. That's why there are 18 people competing. If they have a good day, sometimes the do a move that is more memorable than the first place run.
  • 10 6
 @trillot: I think I this point, having women participating and giving them a chance to blow everyone’s minds would be a better recipe for stand out performances and long lasting memories.
  • 7 7
 @pmhobson: Or we get to watch some women get seriously injured. Nothing worse for marketing than watching a woman ragdoll unconscious down a mountain. Seriously though, women are way more prone to developing Alzheimer's later in life do to concussions. There bodies just aren't built to take the same kind of abuse as men. Give them a separate event at a different venue and time. Maybe then you give the top 3 wildcard entries to Rampage the following year to give them time to train and prepare their bodies for the abuse. Maybe in 10 years women will be able to fill the last few spots but not holding my breath.
  • 31 6
 The translation on this is:

"We're working with our PR experts to determine how expensive of a shitshow it would be to our brand image if a woman goes down like Paul Basagoitia and it goes viral among the non-riding public who buy our products."
  • 11 25
flag MikeGruhler (Sep 23, 2023 at 4:23) (Below Threshold)
 Exactly, as a man nothing hurts my soul worse then seeing a woman getting seriously injured for nothing but entertainment. I watch UFC regularly and find it hard to watch womens matches. They literally just beat each other senseless for 15-25min cause most don't have the power to knock each out. Not fun to watch when you're raised to protect women from harm. Hard for a mom to care for a family when their brain and body is compromised from given'r for the boys entertainment. At the end of the day it's all about ego and if you can't identify that your ego is in control then your in for a world of hurt eventually. Guaranteed.
  • 37 12
1) Automatically need to be protected from harm
2) Are/ will be all mothers
3) Even when fighting physically, they do it wrong
4) Do sports etc. only for the boys' entertainment.

Where do I even start.
  • 11 19
flag MikeGruhler (Sep 23, 2023 at 6:35) (Below Threshold)
 @donimo: First off I didn't say they fight wrong, I said they don't have the power to knock each other out so they just pummel each other for 15 min. If you understood what that does then you'd understand it doesn't feel good to watch most matches. There amazing athletes but it doesn't sit well with me, that's my opinion.
All your other remarks shows you are either a woman who feels offended by a non offensive comment or just another boy stuck in mans body. Either way it doesn't matter, you're wrong.
Believe it or not there's plenty of women who want to be mothers and that's a good thing, not negative like you tried to make it sound.
Most people watching Rampage are male, that's a damn fact. I've seen mostly males talk about wanting to see them compete not women. Why's that? Cause there's barely any women here, just a bunch of dudes. So yeah, entertainment for the boys is not an unreasonable assessment.
...and most importantly ,If you're a man and a woman is hurt or in danger and you don't feel a sense of urgency to help or protect them then your a coward and a gutless POS. It's ingrained in us from birth.
The fact you even try and paint what I said as anything else is hilarious. You had me laughing the whole time I read your reply. Thx, I needed a laugh.
  • 11 12
 @MikeGruhler: Not to worry, I'm sure no one is feeling particularly offended. And I'm glad such a simple list made you laugh. It is however somewhat frustrating reading comments like this still in the year 2023. And I do genuinely believe your intentions are good, those intentions just aren't fully benefitting women.

Regarding motherhood in itself, even though I've never wanted to be a parent, I'm pretty glad many people do. Both men and women. It's a really good thing for the survival of human race, so yay women wanting to be mothers. However, your comment was easily read as women = mothers, with being so worried how for example after a career in UFC these women are able to take care of their families. Maybe they're not planning to.

My word choices were maybe a bit poor, as for women "fighting wrong". But you admit they are fighting in a style you don't like. UFC style sports absolutely have a huge element of entertainment baked into them. Still, the women aren't there fighting to please you first and foremost. Clearly they are following the rules and are there because they themselves want to be. You are not forced to watch. I've said it before, being able to make perhaps bad decisions in the name of fun/ possible rewards should not be only allowed to men.

I haven't actively watched UFC for several years, but I have in the past. I do agree the women's matches are a totally different type of brutal and I do have an idea what that can lead to - I definitely would not want to be in the receiving end. But clearly these women do. Okay, most likely they'd prefer to be the one doing the beating, but they are willing to take the risk. Either to get severely hurt right there and then in the octagon, or run into the consequences later in life. They know what they've signed up for.

I don't know how many current mothers are competing in UFC. There aren't many in more aggressive style MTB. In general, women tend to think about these things A LOT. If and when to have children in general, not to mention when their work, athletic careers etc. may affect both the timing and possibilities (or risks) for motherhood. For obvious biological reasons, a majority of women in physically demanding or risky sports (or other professions) choose or must have children only after their careers. On the plus side, this also gives them time to assess the possible negative effects their career has had on this. At the same time a lot of men with similar careers easily can and do have children at a younger age. Considering they too should be equally responsible for taking care of their family far into the future, why are they allowed to take these kind of risks? We've seen the Rampage riders' spouses and children cheering for them in finish area, why is nobody worried for those kids?

And lastly, I do hope people would not only reserve that sense of urgency to help for women who are hurt or in danger. But all people in general, regardless of their gender. That should be ingrained from birth. Not protecting adult women also from their own desires and choices.
  • 6 6
 @donimo: wow... triggered over facts much?

Look, the simple reality is that women aren't good enough on the bike to compete with the men so they aren't making the cut in the existing event... If I show up to Rampage, they don't check that I have a penis and say "good luck" and toss me in the comp, they tell me to f*ck off because I lack the skill and the event wants nothing to do with sponsoring me killing myself on the slopes of the Utah desert. But since society has gone mad trying to pretend women can do everything men can do, we're talking about creating an event for all the women who aren't good enough to make the Rampage cut, just to expose them to elevated risk for corporate profit and commercial entertainment... because equality apparently means "if we can't compete, we need special treatment" these days. No one is banning women from riding in the area outside the event itself, they're just not being included because they're not good enough, yet they want special treatment...

And @MikeGruhler is right, no decent man is going to be entertained by watching women injure themselves because they got tossed into an event they shouldn't be in... fighting or riding or whatever. No one is saying they shouldn't be allowed the choice to participate in those sports, you're right they're adults making adult choices, but you're conflating the ability to engage in these activities with the commercial value and corporate sponsorship that creating an event for it entails.

By all means, if ladies want to build and ride lines in Virgin, UT... I wholeheartedly support them doing so, but it's not something I would ever tune into watch were it an event. And a company like Red Bull knows that he majority of the world, men and women alike, share that perspective even if it's anathema to you.
  • 30 8
 Well this may not be a very well received comment, but what makes the event so good is that the lines are so insane that only 15 or so guys in the world can ride them. I don't think there are any women freeriders who would want to ride those lines. Maybe I'm wrong, but Formation was not at Rampage levels of difficulty. Logistically perhaps they could make Rampage open to men and women, but in actuality, it will be two separate events. I hope the women get the same support the men get from either Redbull or other sponsors, which they deserve, but I don't think Rampage is the hill to die on, literally or figuratively.
  • 26 0
 Cancel Rampage. Start men's category at Formation.
  • 22 2
 If they are competing against each other and they build their own lines what is the issue with inviting women?
  • 11 3
 Because there's not enough space and time for it. Getting a few women in Rampage means taking men out. So what's the point of having like 5 women competing? Either they get on the level of the men to earn an invite or find a way of making another event just for women.
  • 5 3
 @densign1: That's like asking why not invite a few amateurs too... the reality is that most riders on earth aren't good enough to be riding that terrain while doing more than trying to survive the ride. The number of people on earth who can ride that terrain with style and not get hurt is pretty tiny, and it's all men. Red Bull isn't interested in adding to the field if it doesn't maintain the quality of ride and the safety of competitors. They stand to lose WAY more from one viral crash where a woman never walks again finding its way onto Good Morning America than they could ever gain from the event itself. The demographic of stoked mtb'ers who would enjoy this is infinitesimal compared to the one who doesn't care about mtb at all but pays Red Bull's bills.
  • 2 3
 @caiocrz: They would just add another day for women to compete? The answer seems pretty easy...
  • 5 2
 @badbadleroybrown: See there is the biggest issue. You won't even give the women a chance to show off their skills on that public stage. You discredit them before they even set foot there. Plenty of women have ridden the same lines that the men hit several years ago. Men are getting all the opportunities to progress their side of the sport and women are getting very few, which is why people consider them to be behind style wise. If women were able to have more opportunities to be put on the world stage you'd see that they are just as capable.

Kyle Strait ate it super hard last year, borderline career ending. I don't believe that made it on Good Morning America did it?

Women are out there willing to accept the risks. All they need is the opportunity. And the audience isn't just stoked mtb'ers. It's a whole world of young women and others that are looking for a source of inspiration to push back against those that turn a blind eye.
  • 3 5
 @densign1: Bullshit... men aren't "getting" anything, men are seeing the results of them spending the last 20 years building this event while you cry that women aren't allowed to just slide in and take the place of a man because they want to.

Sorry if it wounds your pride but there are, objectively, no women in the top 25 freeriders of the world... probably not in the top 50. So, unless you have some magical solution to the realities of time and not being able to fit an unlimited number of riders into the day's event, what you're asking for is special treatment... you want more qualified men to be removed so that lesser qualified women can be added, which spits in the face of equality and reduces the overall quality of the product. If women want those opportunities, go create them. Nothing is stopping the best 20 female freeriders from hitting Virgin Utah every weekend and building lines and riding them, recording their runs, and showing the world they can hang with the men. But nah, you'd rather cry about how the mean boys won't let you play in the event they built. Rolleyes

No, Kyle Strait didn't make it on Good Morning America... which is exactly the point. The public doesn't give a shit when me hurl themselves into dangerous situations and suffer for it.
  • 5 1
 @badbadleroybrown: Nobody said anything about women just sliding in and taking anything from the men. What everyone is saying is "why is Rampage a mens only event?" Women don't want to take anything away from Rampage they simply want to be included in the opportunity to compete at Rampage.

To your second point, why is freeriders all inclusive of both sex? Just like any sport it is split between men and women, why is it any different in the situation of freeriding and rampage? Why can't another day be added to the schedule to allow for women to compete? Or would that be considered special treatment?

The biggest overall issue your "solution" is that women have hit massive features, in fact some of the same exact lines that men have hit at previous Rampages. Plenty of women are hitting massive features at Hangtime, Thunderstruck, and Into The Gnar, which are being recorded and put online. But people continue to turn a blind eye to their achievements because of how male dominant this sport is.

Women deserve to be included in Rampage. Although it might not be this year, I hope to see it sometime in the near future. And there are numerous other highly skilled MALE freeriders and previous Rampage athletes that echo this same statement.
  • 1 4
You: They simply want to be included in the opportunity to compete at Rampage.

Fact: They have that opportunity... Contrary to your assertion, Rampage is NOT a "mens only" event, it's just a simple reality that none of the women are good enough to make the cut against the best men.

So, again, you're either asking for special treatment or you're just upset that women aren't competitive with men at elite athletic endeavors.

So, if women are hitting all these massive features just as well as the men... why aren't they recording it and compiling a super sick video to sell on their own, f*ck Red Bull??? Why do you demand that Red Bull either exclude a more qualified man or create a special event just to cater to your demands for special treatment? No one is turning a blind eye to anything, women are failing in one of three areas and you're welcome to tell me which it is but... they're either failing at riding the same shit with the same style, they're failing to record it, or they're failing to market it. See, you seem to think that Red Bull just created the huge event Rampage is today and invited all the boys just cause they like boys. It took 22 years to build Rampage to what it is today and you're demanding that girls who had no hand at all in creating that and building it be given access to it simply because your misguided train of thinking equates girls getting special treatment with "equal access".

Name the woman who outperforms the men who were invited... you keep saying "women deserve to be included" so tell me which woman deserves a spot that was handed to a man because she's a better rider. Not because she's a woman, but who's objectively a better rider than every man who was invited? Not someone who can survive riding the same lines... someone who can ride the same lines, or better lines, with more style. I'll wait.

Also... the highly skilled male freeriders say what keeps them sponsored and being honest with women about their athletic shortcomings is a surefire way to piss off sponsors and the public. Guarantee you not one of those dudes feels like there's a woman who's a better rider than he is and would be willing to give up their spot... and if there is, then that dude needs to talk less and act, publicly announce it and hand over his spot to the woman of his choosing. Funny how that's never happened when they all supposedly "feel" like women belong. Rolleyes
  • 3 1
 @badbadleroybrown: Damn dude your ego must make it hard to read cuz none of what you said barely touched the surface of what I said.

I want the best men to be at Rampage there is no doubt about that. BUT I also want the best WOMEN to be included. Why is that such a hard thing to grasp? Nobody wants women taking the spots of the men. The best men deserve to be there. But the best women ALSO deserve to be there.

Here is a link to several of the same lines that women have hit from previous Rampages:

Women are not going to be coming into Rampage out performing most of the top men. But give them their OWN spot in the Rampage line up (again not taking away a man's spot) and they will begin to show exactly what they are capable of, while progressing the sport even further.

Remy Metailler, Brett Rheeder, Yoaan Barelli (just to name a few) are all male athletes performing at the top of their sport, and have publicly questioned why Red Bull isn't including women at Rampage. These athletes have big voices online and are backing it up with their actions. Brett Rheeder's Title sponsors several female riders. Remy Metailler is constantly including women in his videos showing what they are capable of and helping them improve their skills. Yoaan Barelli, creator of Into The Gnar, has taught some of the world's top female mtbers, he also invited and witnessed numerous female athletes hit the gnarliest lines in Canada.

No one is saying women are better than men at rampage. No one is saying they want men taken out of the line up to include women. We simply want women to compete against women in their OWN category just how all DH, EDR, XC, and pretty much all other sports are.
  • 2 3
 @densign1: Bullshit... you know damn well I'm right and you just can't rebut anything I said so now you're crying about irrelevant bullshit. I don't give a f*ck what any rider says unless they're willing to say "this woman right here is a better rider than I am and I am giving up my invitation as one of the top 18 freeriders in the world for her to ride in my place because she deserves it more than I do" period, full f*cking stop. Unless they're willing to say that, anything else they say is just meaningless bullshit to keep sponsors happy and to prevent smooth brains like you from getting triggered.

Your point, echoed several times now is: "Women deserve to be included in Rampage. Although it might not be this year, I hope to see it sometime in the near future. "

So yes, what I said not only touches on that point, it thoroughly refutes it. You're asking Red Bull to do one of three things...
Add more riders, which isn't possible due to time constraints
Add women at the expense of men, which isn't fair based upon ability
Add another day to the event for the women

Now, one more time for the slow kids in the back of the bus. You can't make the day longer, so option one is out. The fact is there are exactly ZERO women among the top 18 freeriders in the world. Sorry to wound your gender studies pride but that's a fact, so option two is out. And no one has demonstrated the commercial viability of women at Rampage or doing anything like Rampage. So option three is out until the ladies prove it's commercially viable.

You don't have to like it but the facts remain the facts. Men demonstrated their viability commercially and literally built the freeride genre from nothing, dudes like Bender sending stupid drops for bragging rights and token sponsorships and a thousand senders since then built this event. So... if the ladies want this, then the ladies need to saddle up and get to riding and filming just like the boys did. Slap together some videos, do their own New World Order series and show big sponsors like Red Bull that there's a market for it and f*cking earn it instead of just pulling the typical entitled bullshit "but we're girls and we should be included" without giving a single f*cking thought to the reality of how that would work. Rolleyes
  • 17 3
 So is this just a well crafted and ambiguous response to PB asking? If so, I doubt red bull is doing anything to add women aside from maybe inviting one that they see as being within the top 18 in the world, gender aside.

Basically red bull saying, "go away, we're busy."
  • 15 2
 Here’s all I got to say on the topic. If all youse wanna discuss body sex differences and brain sex differences ad-nauseam, then that’s simply a reflection of the times we live in. There are differences. I think bad ass chicks sending it in a women’s Rampage competition is seriously cool and long overdue. There’s not a one of those women that couldn’t outride just about every dude on this commentary thread. Let ‘em send it!
  • 5 3
 But who is gonna pay for it. This is ultimately advertising aimed at young men.
  • 23 12
 Red bulls statement seems pretty reasonable to me. It's only one day of competition with only time for 18 riders. As a viewer I only want to see the best of the best competing. If a woman or women happens to be among those 18 then good for them, I truly couldn't care less about the gender of the athlete.
  • 4 5
 But the best aren’t all competing. Some have declined this year
  • 24 13
 When my kids ask me a stupid question. I'm like yeah sure we can explore that.

I'm mean seriously where is a video of women doing a huge drop followed by a huge flip-whip to bar spin?

Seriously, people just need to get back to reality.
  • 8 7
 This is right up there with the absurdity of the “defund the police” movement
  • 12 3
 Rampage wouldn't be the first extreme sporting event to host both a men’s and women’s category. They would not be cutting edge. They would however give everyone in the professional MTB world, both men and women - the opportunity to compete with & against their respective peers at a venue not for the weak of skill nor heart. Who is ‘stronger’ really has nothing to do with the conversation.

It’s about getting the right people involved in the conversations and implementation not just because they sit in a certain office with a specific title. It’s about doing it well from the get-go, not some half ass attempt at just silencing people. It’s rebranding Rampage to reflect athleticism of both men and women. It’s ensuring that the victors on both podiums are celebrated and recognized equally.

Rampage does demand more out of a rider than most - if not any other - MTB event out there. Those that have competed know what to expect. Those that desire to compete just need to ask the veterans. Not everyone wants to be an astronaut, but those that want to fly to the moon, and have trained and prepared for such an adventure as that, should at least have the opportunity to pursue said dream. The rest of us then have the opportunity to celebrate the achievements of those that dared to risk much as they progress in their MTB discipline.

MTB as a whole has a lot to learn from other sporting disciplines. Attitudes need to change across the board. Progression in the sport may look different than what we anticipate, but 2 years, 5 years, 10 years from now we will hopefully wonder how it could have ever been anything other than what we’ll know.
  • 11 3
 How about: We had a great women’s only rampage like event called Formation and we had some budget cuts (I’m guessing here) and we decided we couldn’t afford it this year. The ROI on Rampage was still worth doing for the company, you’re welcome, and we hope to bring Formation back in the near future. There’s no way the ladies are hitting those lines, as the best men in the world are scared out there….
  • 16 6
 It’s simple ‘ let them ride’ Redbull has a chance to change history !
  • 9 9
 It's simple? Then let's get down to brass tacks. Who was snubbed and deserves a spot on the start list? And who should be dropped to make that accommodation? Naming names would be helpful if you're even the slightest bit serious.
  • 20 10
 Why does redbull have to do it? Why don't you organize and sponsor it?
  • 4 1
 @DirtCrab: well said
  • 9 2
 Let Women compete. Let them build there runs and if they need to get scapped off the rocks and airlifted out just like the Men so be it. Redbull Rampage needs to evolve into a multi-day event. #LETSGO
  • 13 7
 This is so tiring.

We should not be in the habit of forcing private corporations to do things they don't want to do. That's a beeline to mediocrity because they won't be actually invested.

If there's an opportunity, another enterprising company will do it. And they'll be genuine so it'll be better for the women anyway.

If you ladies out there want this, do it on your own. Don't hold people hostage and back them into a corner to get what you want. The world will know its fake, and you won't be fulfilled anyway.

Also - if you want a drum ro beat, make it the one about convincing people to watch the women's categories. As soon as viewership goes up, the opportunities will follow.

The beauty of the free market: what should be, is.

The most pro-women thing these loud ladies on Instagram could do is show the world that they're right and give the finger to redbull by out-doing rampage. And also, maybe stop the name-calling to dudes.... we're not your enemy but it feels like you're trying to convert us into such.
  • 4 3
 I don't see many women who are angry about this. It's all middle aged dudes freaking out lol.
  • 1 1
 Worst case scenario if they are forced to have joint event is they cancel it. If the returns aren't there they will just stop.
  • 27 19
 They are figuring out how to build a women’s category? What is this 1952? Let em in and let em smash it.
  • 13 11
 I’m not sure if you’ve seen past years events but with the amount of riders that they have adding more would make the event undoable in one day. So either multi-day, or cutting the field, which then isn’t fair to the top riders, who barely have made it in already. There’s more than just virtue signaling here.
  • 15 10
 Hell yeah! Let them in and let em smash it! That's the same reason I watch the wnba, all the slam dunks!
  • 6 1
 TBH sometimes I have mixed feelings about ANYone doing this event. A rider who enters this arena willingly is already an outlier IMHO.

Another note, I'd be curious to see the cost of holding the event and how much revenue it generates (might be tough to estimate). Wasn't there a cost/benefit article done on rampage at one point? something about lack of insurance? hesitation by athletes?
  • 14 9
 Holy shit if it came down to strength where are all the gym bros? It’s exposure. Go look at the early rampage it’s not what it is now. Bring women and they’ll compete you can only ride what’s in front of you. If they arnt there nothing evolves
  • 15 17
 If a woman was good enough, there's no reason they wouldn't let them compete. But there aren't yet.
  • 9 4
 Go look at a pro free rider up close, they're jacked. Kyle Strait could be a loose forward in Rugby no problem, Kelly McGarry was massive. The small guys like Lacondyguy are still built solid as. Gee Atherton, he is literally a Gym Bro, all these guys are.
  • 5 1
 You don't realize how much strength training pros do Remy metallier can deadlift 430 pounds iiirc and he only weighs 145. If you dont lift weights for MTB you really should. It makes a massive difference in your riding abilities. Many, perhaps even most crashes are caused by a lack of sufficient strength
  • 3 1
 @trillot: *440 pounds @ 145 bodyweight

Deadlift, barbell rows, and bench press are really great for mtb, and barbell squats are good for just about everything. Be stronger than you were last year
  • 4 1
 "Where are all the gymbros?"

They're on the podium
  • 3 2
 @wburnes: You don't think professional women free riders and racers aren't hitting the gym and the weights? Men and women might be built differently and put on weight/muscle differently, but that doesn't mean professional women aren't strong AF.
  • 4 0
 @jsnfschr: Yes, they all hit the gym but the difference in a strong athletic female and a strong athletic male is miles apart.
  • 1 0
 @jsnfschr: I didn't mention women
  • 15 7
 this statement is bulls###
  • 11 7
 The owner of Red Bull ran 2 teams in F1 a few years ago. $350 million dollars to enter 2 teams for a full season. They have one team now and an extra $175 million to hire someone to figure it out. The biggest issue is the wind late in the day at Rampage, be near impossible to run an extra 1-2 hours later into the day. Don't know about the morning winds, but I'd get up early to see women send it on stuff 90% of the people commenting on this topic wouldn't touch.
  • 12 1
 90%? I think you're underestimating the armchair senders here Razz

For me it was Claudio's preview run ( that convinced me I had no business pretending I could ride any of Rampage: even taking the easiest lines down and skipping the huge features, he seemed one step away from full panic.

Props to anybody (man/woman/other) that wants to give it a go; I'll tune in and watch and wish them the best of luck.
  • 6 0
 They still run both Red Bull and Alpha Tauri... and they spend WAY more than $350m a season on them. A much better allocation of capital.

Why not just expand the field to 25 an invite a few women, no massive expenditure needed to start a new event...?
  • 2 0
 @judge-shredd: wow, that pov of claudio rolling up to the canyon gap was TERRIFYING.
  • 8 8
 @badbadleroybrown: because even then there are zero women in the top 25. Probably not even the top 100 honestly.
  • 6 0
 @badbadleroybrown: That would be a great solution if they could get through 2 runs... they can't even do that with 18 riders. They're too concerned about all the story telling and Hollywood graphics.

But I'm board with what your'e saying.

Here's what I'd like to see....
Cut the Hollywood crap and the commercial breaks. Start earlier. Get through 2 runs for all 18 current riders. Add in the Hollywood stuff for the rebroadcast and the big ESPN broadcast they always do later on.

If they can do that.... then in 2024 bump it out 4-6 and add some women.

I think most rational people would love to see women compete against each other in an elite high level environment like this. I mean... people watch women's DH and people were stoked to see women out there testing themselves on the Hardline course. Though that didn't turn out perfectly....
  • 4 2
 If the venue is that susceptible to wind why not host it somewhere else
  • 2 0
 @badbadleroybrown: they also make a profit from the f1 teams as the other sponsors and prize money come in.

There isn’t time to expand the field and keep a broadcast package to sell and work round the weather and any injury stoppages
  • 1 2
 @onemanarmy: it’s the Hollywood crap that pays for it all. Without that viewer numbers would be pitiful and it would never happen
  • 1 0
 @chrismac70: would mavericks be mavericks if they moved it?

It’s the high desert dude. Wind is a guarantee no matter what zone they’re in.
  • 9 3
 Everyone pushing the women's category better actually watch it because this is way the women's events are being canceled or not even organized because the lac of interest
  • 7 3
 The problem with all this internet/social media backlash is that it’s not at all being constructive and most of the loud voices are ignoring any logical reasoning and just label it “mansplaining”…
It is becoming time to give women a shot at Rampage, but you can’t expect something that takes the whole year to organise, to absolutely switch up everything 2 weeks before the event begins!
There are time slots worked out for TV. If it was purely an online Live Stream then there could be a little more flexibility, but TV is the big time, with so much more to consider than 1 show. Advertising slots, other sports, things that have been set in stone well in advance…
Insurance costs and time frames that cover liability for the organisers at the venue. Sure it would be great if everyone could show up and spectate, but logistically it doesn’t work, there has to be limits incase of emergency and being able to manage general public, even Formation has security on the gate.
It’s not as simple as expecting a company throwing more money at it last minute to make it happen, and it certainly isn’t fair to cut the allocation to men, considering many of the riders are already spending out of pocket to attend the event, including accommodation, transport, tools, diggers just to name a few…
These companies have budgets laid out for every sport they support and trying to get more out of them isn’t that simple. Sure MTB would love to see the same spending as F1 receives,, but if it were that easy there wouldn’t be an ongoing argument that MTB athletes are underpaid.
Women’s freeride is still so fresh, sure there were a couple ladies going for it 20 years ago, but that doesn’t count for much with so many years of inaction in between. Formation wasn’t just canned at the last minute, all the actual athletes knew what was happening in advance.
It’s crazy to say Women haven’t had enough support because in the last few years MTB media has been saturated with coverage! There have been more women specific events, arguably more push on those than mens open events lately. And when given the choice to ride the chance to ride the Joyride course this year, none of the established freeride women even showed up…

If it wasn’t for Todd + H5 Events, Rampage wouldn’t exist. There has been no one willing/able to step up to do anything similar out there and I honestly don’t think it could happen without the relationships H5 have built with the community out there.
Meme pages on Instagram ‘fighting the establishment’ will not help progress this space.
Practice some digging, continue to work on tricks and progression and next year show your stuff to the world!
  • 5 2
 We're not here for nuance and common sense, we're here to yell and scream and let people know we're still angry damnit!
  • 18 15
 I don't get the uproar ..redbull can do whatever the fuk they don't see the woman paddling out in double over head slabbing teahpoo..they save that for the best of the best ..the woman paddle out in the leftovers..sorry but it's the is a business..
  • 7 16
flag mcbretttetettet (Sep 22, 2023 at 18:08) (Below Threshold)
 These women probably ride better than you so...
  • 18 4
 @mcbretttetettet: so what is your point? None of us expect a 'dad bod' category.
Best of the best.
  • 2 5
 @mcbretttetettet: I can guarantee they do
  • 7 2
 Seems like Monster or Rockstar should capitalize on this. We all know this is basically just a contest to capitalize exposing Redbull athletes.
  • 7 1
 Every body talking about pc or bias should start with listening what Vaea has to say first.
  • 5 1
 I guess a lot of people commenting here haven't read the interview with her.
  • 3 2
 @commental: or anything from a woman probably
  • 6 3
 Honestly I much rather watch women’s mtb events than men’s.

1) women pros are still way above my level
2) they risk way more than men on the average (bodily, financially, and future risks)
3) I see the lines women tend to take and I think to myself maybe I can eventually do it too then. I look that the lines pro men take and the speeds they do it and I’m like nope. No way. And in a way can be a little discouraging….

Ultimately women deserve credit for what they do with little to no help compared to the level of help and support males get. Women also deserve to get a separate RBR and the time to develop it….without the BS of oh no what if they break a nail attitude from men. They know what they are risking (jusst as much as men know what they are risking) and tbh are risking way more than men ever will to do the sport they love.
  • 3 5
 Read the interview with Vaea. They were offered that and turned it down.
  • 5 2
 Why do women need permission from Red Bull or anyone else to film and ride that area? Dudes never asked permission to build and ride mountain bikes in the beginning. Women need to step up and just go do shit instead of asking.
  • 6 1
 Same venue, same stream, right before the men just like the WC streams of past.
  • 4 2
 Seems like they should hold a separate but similar event, maybe at one of the older sites, let the women build up their lines and have the same time frame for building and riding. Then they can build up confidence, and the event, not directly comparing with men.
  • 2 0
 I wonder if how to do this is more about do we do a separate event that gets much less coverage? Do we invite some females over males for main competition? Do we run a female competition at same time? All have definite concerns. Separate costs a lot more money for what return on investment? Not inviting some males in favor of females well all know that will go. Running it at same time would be rad but seems every year they barely get men’s event completed if at all so adding more riders is a concern.

So yeah it probably needs some additional thought.
  • 3 1
 Everyone seems to just be ignoring the fact that it's already a dog eat dog fight for the riders to get their space to build their line down the hill. Adding a bunch of riders, be it on another day or not, is going to cause problems and compromise. Good luck to them figuring this out and I hope whatever is done is not at the expense of the current event we have.
  • 8 3
 Lots of Basic Bros on Pinkbike.
  • 5 2
 If RedBull had a women's only Rampage event, how would it look? Who would watch? How many people would watch? How profitable would it be for RB?
  • 6 1
 tons of comments from entitled keyboard warriors with short wieners
  • 4 3
 Why was Formation cancelled again? I have no idea but it was boring af to watch.

Even though I think the judging is terrible and sal masakela has been ruining sports broadcasting for well over two decades Rampage still blows my mind every year.
  • 5 2
 So is rampage. Highlights are enough. It takes too long and most have no idea what the spinny flippy tricks are or which are harder
  • 4 4
 What I can understand from here: They know the Red Bull Rampage is a very dangerous competition, we has been seeing guys break bones, putting careers aside due injuries and go on. We all know that the freeride style has been for a long time leaded by men, they have more experience, more line selection and they stepped up the fear level, also they can handle a slam better by their biological frame, aside of the world madness of genders bla bla. I want to believe that Red Bull will prepare a more progressive road for the women so they can evolve in the same way that the men did it. The women has been improving in giant steps the last 4 years, so they are in the correct road. Maybe the same location than men's competition is a little dangerous and they move it to another one with more access to all. Red Bull moved from the world cup has made a great move to the other disciplines and for sure they will not leave it aside. Lets see what the results after review and in the meantime we need still supporting the women division for reach the same level than men.
  • 1 0
 Ali? Ali-G?
  • 3 2
 Rampage is dead, long live the FEST series. Dogsh**t judging and coverage at rampage. All riders are better off on their personal pursuits through Instagram and other platforms.
  • 2 2
 Unfortunately if they do it'll be like women's soccer and no one will watch. Or a trans rider will enter and dominate. If a female was in the top 18 then welcome to Rampage. I don't think forcing inclusion ever works out in a positive way
  • 2 0
 The talent is there. Why not start a brand new rampage event for women if thats what they want? Scope lines, work together to create features etc.
  • 1 0
 Sure that makes more sense
  • 3 3
 Sad to see that Pinkbike is just like the rest of the internet...a place for intolerant, sexist arseholes. If women want to ride, let them ride. All of these comments sounds like the men in the 1960's who used "science" to claim that women couldn't run marathons. A woman just ran a marathon in 2:11, faster than 99.9 % of men can. I bet the women who are daring enough to ride Rampage can ride better than 99.9% of us. You Pinkbikers are getting pathetic. Go wank off to Fox news instead.
  • 3 2
 Or maybe you grew up where everyone gets a participation medal. I don't see anyone here saying they shouldn't freeride. People here are torn between give them there own event or day vs. Let them in the big event. To put them in the main event means pushing out men who would likely score higher barring crashes etc. Vs. There own event. Which so far has not given returns necessary for a private sponsor to continue. It's not cut and dry sexual discrimination.
  • 3 2
 @fabwizard: I live and grew up in the most conservative county of the most conservative state in the US. (Look up's in my name). No Participation medals here. Further, that is a totally different topic. However, I wouldn't expect an inference nor a coherent thought from a boy who doesn't know the different between "their" and "there."

The solution is simple: same event, two categories--male and female. No exclusion of men. It's not like having females in any other sport kicks men out.

Don't try to change the topic with your political catch phrases like "participation medals." That kind of crap might work with internet trolls but doesn't work with people who can construct coherent sentences.
  • 3 2
 @WyoMoose: your calling me and others trolls when most of your argument was putting me and others down. What a laugh. And you focus on a spelling mistake from typing on a tiny screen.

So I will throw it back at you. Did you actually listen or read the articles You are fighting over. Everyone says not enough time to run two events on the same day. So put it over two days and double the cost. But wait,revenues or clicks or drinks sold don't double . Hmm is this event worth it anymore. Maybe, maybe not.

Next riders complain that it is too dangerous to not practice the day before the event because,now there is the women's main event. Logistics and costs go up again. It's not as simple as just adding the class.

Get off your high horse and try to have a rational two way conversation.
  • 1 0
 I don't see why they can't have a category for chicks. Maybe they think the women competitors would get hurt, crash or not get down to the bottom like some of the men riders over the years LOL
  • 10 7
 Can’t wait for the backslash nonsense
  • 4 0
 Get the UCI in.
  • 9 10
 its really interesting how this conversation goes. Yes the top female riders are probably capable of riding Rampage lines.... in perfect conditions, but the pressure of competition, cameras, and weather i dont know i would like to give them the benefit of the doubt.

but this is Redbull Rampage this is where Paul Bas got a life changing injury on not even a main feature.... if all of the supporters are willing to see that happen to a top Female Rider then go ahead, if they want to assume the risk... (btw Paul Bas was one of probably top 5 riders at the time there was no lack of experience).

its a tough pill to swallow but i dont think anyone even the supporters would want to see someone like Casey or Vae have a career altering/ ending injury just to prove a point.... maybe thats all in the sake of progression and competition assumed risks even at Formation.

but dont let the importance of Safety come off as a lack of respect for their abilities, the best riders on earth have had the worst outcomes at rampage.

Who knows if a woman comes and competes and gets wrecked maybe that will stop women from even being able to compete in the future

some progress is made slow and steadily
  • 13 5
 Or how about we recognize that anyone who drops in on a bike, regardless of whether it's at Rampage, World Cup DH, a random shred day at the bike park or a ride down the street and crash and have a life altering injury. I work in a hospital and it everyday.

How about instead of this "but the women might get hurt" attitude, we let women decide whether or not they want to assume the risk of riding the terrain, just like we do with men.
  • 2 7
flag OceanParkDan351 (Sep 22, 2023 at 15:59) (Below Threshold)
 @jsnfschr: i dont know why you started your response with "or how about" when i literally already said what you said, im just saying we cant confuse the discussion of safety with that of ability, and a crash may not only set the rider back but the movement back nobody wants to see anyone get hurt
  • 11 2
 @OceanParkDan351: No one wants to see anyone get hurt. Why would Casey or Vae crashing have a different effect on the women's freeride movement than Paul Bas or Strait or any other dude crashing.

Who decides whether someone is able to ride the terrain? Do the top men get to decide whether or not the top women are "ready"?

The entire history of freeride has been dudes telling other dudes "screw you, I can absolutely huck my body off that thing on my bike". Freeride has never been "safe".

Women are just trying to do the same thing and I'm here for it.
  • 4 7
 @jsnfschr: While i agree with you the points you made dont support it.

it would matter more if Casey or Vae crashed for the same reason it matters so much that theyre allowed to ride... theyre literally holding the womens freeride scene on their shoulders, if the real rampage on its first year had everyone crash out and get hurt they probably wouldnt have done it again precedent matters, if they do it, it has to be successful the first time unfortunately that seems to be the nature of the beast if they want a repeat event.

also funny enough the top males would be the ones to ask if they females are ready because not only do they ride together socially they are also the only humans on earth qualified to asses what it takes to ride said lines...

i know theyre capable im sure Brett Rheeder and Carson Storch can personally vouch having been mentors at formation im just saying Safety is a valid issue... even when Paul Bas crashed people were arguing whether Rampage at all was worth it (they dont support medical bills of athletes)
  • 3 5
 @jsnfschr: ok, how many women are lining up saying they want to compete in rampage along side the men? How about an article interviewing these women and asking what they think would be best. I would bet they would all be logical and agree that they are light-years away from the men's field and would need a separate event and venue. You know like they did for Formation, but make it a competition. Footage from last year was like watching year 1-3 of rampage.
  • 3 1
 @jsnfschr: yes. The male riders present and past will decide. They will give the nod when they think a woman is ready.
  • 4 2
 @Intense4life: Berrecloth and Rheeder have a little experience and have had some minor success at Rampage. They're both supportive of women in Rampage. Does that count, or we need five guys supporting? Ten guys? Consensus amongst all current and former Rampage riders?

When men starting riding off cliffs in Utah, who formed a committee and said they were ready?

If the men decided it was cool for a kid to ride (16yo Strait), I'm pretty confident we can trust adult women to decided whether or not they are comfortable building lines they can and want to ride.
  • 2 2
 @jsnfschr: games a bit different these days. I don’t think I’ve seen any of the female riders wanting to or ready to ride these lines. Should they have their own Rampage running concurrently sure. I’m down for that. Apply some logic here. It’s not realistic to go from Formation to Rampage. It’s just not realistic. Have women made strides? For sure. But it’s been slow as molasses. They aren’t ready. I don’t think anyone wants to see dead airs and one footers, one handers at the worlds most premier event. Not at the sacrifice of one or more coveted spots when there’s guys all over the world vying for those. Inclusion has no place here. They Kyle Strait comparison is silly. When he was 12 he was better than any of the women out there today. Women need to compete. Against each other. Only then will they as a whole press the boundaries. I wouldn’t tune in to watch 52 formation laps in F1.
  • 9 9
 Best part about the people against women riding rampage in this comment section: I guarantee these women ride better than you. They no doubt step to stuff you wouldn't dream of.
  • 7 4
 I don't get your point. I also wouldn't want to watch 99% of the riding public doing rampage. I'm not asking for an invitation because I'm not good enough. It's for the best riders. End of story.
  • 4 6
 @jaame: my point is who are you to determine who is good enough? The woman looking to compete aren't at the general publics skill level.
  • 8 2
 @mcbretttetettet: I am not deciding who is good enough. Obviously someone a lot more clued up who is working for Red Bull is deciding though. Are you serious about the good enough part?
Most sports coaches are not.good enough to compete in the events they train athletes for . Does that mean they're not able to tell the difference between good and excellent? One does not have to personally be excellent at something to accurately compare two other people at that same thing.
  • 5 2
 @mcbretttetettet: no, there skill level is at the same level as most local heroes at the DJ's. I could grab 10 random rippers from my local spots, non of which are "Pro's" but would easily hand it to the best female freeriders in a competition. Facts are facts and the truth hurts sometimes.
  • 2 0
 #buzzballz are the purffect women owned drink company to sponsor an event of this caibre
  • 2 0
 haha! Perfect! But seriously! Let the gals ride!
  • 1 0
 "We are exploring with industry experts how we might develop a women’s category at Red Bull Rampage."
Communication guy is now finding a new job...
  • 3 4
 Take the gender out of it, let whoever run, but if panel decides that a rider doesn't cut the grade because they aren't able to ride the course game over no ifs buts or maybes about who's packing what. You can guarantee the best way to choke the sport is to let anyone ride an extreme track and bin it, kill themselves then it's game over for everyone.
  • 1 1
 It's not enough just to be loud and outraged; the upset athlete has to match the skill of the other riders, and the upset audience member also has to view and pay to view what they want.
  • 1 0
 The cancellation of Formation was a bummer but I haven’t seen anyone talking about the introduction of women at the 2023 Joyride.
  • 18 20
 While we’re on the topic, why aren’t they tossing women on to the starting roster of NFL and NBA teams? Oh wait…surprise! They’re in an entirely different realm when comparing physical and athletic capacity. If any female rider could hang competitively with the top 18 riders in the world, they’d be competing. Generating revenue like the boys. It’s pathetic this is even a conversation.
  • 9 1
 Almost every sport has a women's category, with a separate competition . Exactly for that reason,combined with the fact that society grossly agrees that shutting out half the population from doing professional sports is a bad idea.
  • 8 6
 @ak-77: rampage is 18 riders. They're shuffling out a LOT more than half the population. Use your brain dude. If women wanted womens freeride events they'd make it happen.
  • 1 0
 Agree with this like I said it myself
  • 7 5
 Stop being dicks and give them a category. Who are you to gatekeep?
  • 5 1
 I dunno, I suppose the people that built the gate and everything behind it.
  • 2 2
 Its not like its only men competition. There is just no women in 18 best riders and Im 100% ok with that. Women should have EQUAL rights.
  • 2 0
 Only reason Redbull is doing this is to save face from all the backlash.
  • 1 0
 How many woman are here voicing their support with comments? Shoot me an up like and let me know.
  • 11 11
 What’s stopping women from creating their own event? We don’t need these gatekeepers.
  • 25 2
 What's stopping them? My guess would be the fact there is not a major international company with huge resources and ample experience in event organization, media and PR doing all the non-riding related work for them.
  • 4 10
flag wobblegoblin (Sep 22, 2023 at 14:35) (Below Threshold)
 @ak-77: looking at these comments makes me think that you all would love to help get it going.
  • 10 3
 That’s what Formation was, and it was canceled after several years of women showing up. By the way, it was held at the old rampage site. Same lines.

Women deserve a chance to ride in their own category, just like any other sport.

Its not like 18 riders is a sacred number. Why not 10? 25?

A two day event might be better anyway, by creating a bigger weather window. Each category gets one run per day, reverse the order day one to day two.
  • 4 2
 @CaptainBLT: then why was it canceled?
  • 7 8
 @ak-77: it's almost like nobody important enough to bankroll it wants to set up a participation trophy event
  • 9 10
 @CaptainBLT: how far down the list of the 'best' do you have to go before you get to a woman? I'm asking honestly?
Like mentioned above, the fastest female downhill racers are slower than nearly the entire mens field.
Who would you exclude to add the single best woman?
  • 1 0
 @CaptainBLT: the numbers are fixed to generate the broadcast package RB want. Plus how many stoppages for weather or accident that need factoring in
  • 1 0
 uheem. Hi, Vera De Milo here!
  • 4 3
 I don't mind it as long as it's broadcast for free
  • 5 3
 I’d rather pay to watch it if it got the girls involved.
  • 3 2
 @MrRight: you my friend have the answer. All you people calling out rb are talking out your arses. If you want a women's category, pay for it.
  • 7 7
 Implying that the best 18 riders in the world could not possibly include women.... Their response to this has been pathetic.
  • 11 8
 Name on female rider that is better than the selected men. I'll wait
  • 4 2
 As predicted, 5 down votes so far but no names lmao. Next person to down vote, don't forget to comment
  • 2 0
 @caiocrz: Your question is ill posed, there should be separate categories just like every other sport. The best women should be invited, if that means trimming the men’s field by a few names because 18 is a hard cap, so be it.
  • 2 5
 I’m so sick of all this woke , gender bull shit. Men are men women are women. We aren’t the same. 50 ft drops, 70ft canyon gaps. Go ahead. Are you willing to shove up a catheter daily to take a leak? Talk to Bas. It’s not a joke. It’s not a platform for change. It’s f*ckin high risk sports. What happens when one of you ends up steering with a straw? They’ll pull the plug. Enough already.
  • 3 3
 keep biological men OUT of the women’s category… create a third if need be.
  • 2 1
 this is dumb...they shouldn't cave in. DBAP Red Bull.
  • 3 3
 Just a bunch of misogynic men. Pinkbike comment is the contest of being the most dumb men.
  • 20 20
 woke ideologies create stoppid things...
  • 13 9
 Cringe comments create idiots
  • 1 2
 @giantwhip: libtard mongolic detected... gotta love'em!!
  • 2 1
 @paul-fl0yd: the best you got? Try to be original next time jr
  • 1 0
 Parsing? Wot that means
  • 3 2
  • 1 1
 Dylan Stark about to identify as a woman so he can get an invite.
  • 7 8
 Wow. These depths of journalism have never been reached previously.
  • 6 7
 I'm sure woman Rampage is going to be epic …
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