Behind the Numbers: Enduro Bikes Compared - Specialized vs Marin vs GT vs Orange vs Santa Cruz

Mar 23, 2020 at 5:57
by Dan Roberts  


To conclude our first series of Behind the Numbers, and before we move onto anything new, we're putting all the bikes we've analysed so far onto the same graph, with the same scale, to see how certain layouts and bikes give different curve characteristics.

You may be wondering why the Grim Donut is not adorning these graphs, and it's simply because that bike sits aloof from all other bikes, quietly in its own category, incomparable to other such "traditional" bikes.

For the analysis we looked at leverage ratio, anti-squat, anti-rise and axle path. But for this comparison article we went back and added in an analysis for the pedal kickback, due to popular demand.

Keep your eyes peeled in the coming weeks for our next series of Behind the Numbers, this time focussing on five trail bikes.





The Bikes

Specialized Stumpjumper EVO Carbon
Specialized Stumpjumper EVO 29
Daniel Sapp in Pisgah National Forest.
Marin Mount Vision
GT
GT Force 27.5
27.07.18. Orange Stage 6 Test Pinkbike Rider Alex Evans PIC Andy Lloyd www.andylloyd.photography
Orange Stage 6
Santa Cruz Megatower review
Santa Cruz Megatower

We kicked off the series with the Specialized Stumpjumper EVO 29. As the name suggests, it's a 29er and has the ability to adjust the geometry and suspension via a chip in the shock extender. It uses a Horst pivot design with a small link compressing the shock.

Next up was the unconventional Marin Mount Vision. This had 27.5 wheels and no adjustability but a suspension system using sliding elements rather than just rotating pivots.

After that we looked at the GT Force. Another 27.5 bike but with a flip chip located at the lower shock mount. Another Horst pivot design but uses a rocker link to compress the vertical shock.

Then it was the turn of the Orange Stage 6. A 29er with no adjustability and a single pivot suspension system.

And finally, we looked at the Santa Cruz Megatower. A 29er with chips at the shock and the rear axle, giving four possibilities for the bike to be configured. A VPP, or Virtual Pivot Point, suspension system is used, but you can also call it a short, counter-rotating link system.





Leverage Ratio

Enduro Round Up Leverage Ratio

Leverage ratio is the ratio between how much the rear wheel moves versus how much the shock moves. If we move the shock 1mm, how many mm is that going to move the rear wheel?

A higher leverage ratio means that for 1mm of shock movement the rear wheel moves more. Or looking from the rear wheel's perspective (the inverse of the leverage ratio), it would move the shock less for a given amount of rear wheel travel. A lower leverage ratio means the rear wheel moves less for a given shock movement, say that 1mm. The inverse means that for a given rear wheel movement it would move the shock more.

Higher leverage ratios multiply the input force at the rear wheel more but would generally generate less damping force, seeing as they are moving the shock slower. Lower leverage ratios multiply the force going into the shock less but generally generate more damping force from the faster shaft speeds.

When we talk about leverage ratios, we use the terms progressive, linear and regressive. These are less a systematic description of just a curve on a graph and more a description of how the bike is going to feel when you ride it. Once a shock is bolted in all bikes will exhibit an increasing wheel force as you go through the travel, so it's not a description of the wheel rate curve. A progressive leverage ratio curve is one that starts high and gradually reduces in leverage ratio. A linear leverage ratio is one that has little to no change from start to finish and looks more horizontal. A regressive leverage ratio is the opposite of a progressive one and starts at a low leverage ratio and gradually increases.

Looking at the bikes we have a pretty good mix of suspension systems and as a result, a good mix of curve characteristics.

The Megatower is by far the most progressive, or has the most change from start to end, ranging between 27% to 32%.

The Stage 6, however, is the polar opposite and is the most linear, or has almost no change between the start and end.

In-between these extremes sit the Force and Stumpjumper EVO, both with some progressivity but also exhibiting more the traits of a linear leverage ratio.

Then we have the Mount Vision, which shows us what regression is with its increasing leverage ratios at the start of travel, before rounding off in a hump and giving a progressive leverage ratio.

As a rule of thumb, regression in a leverage ratio curve is something to avoid. Some argue that at the end of travel, leverage ratio regression will counteract an air spring's natural ramp up in force, but having straighter lines avoiding regression translates to a more predictable suspension feel and also addresses the damping's relation to leverage ratio as well as the spring forces.

The shape of the curve and its overall change are two things to consider. But you can have two identical curves that could be at different leverage ratios. So, we need to look at the actual ratio numbers to understand more about what's going on. The Mount Vision has low leverage ratios, even dipping under 2:1 at the end of travel. Whereas the Megatower has much higher leverage ratios all the way through travel. This is going to affect how much spring is needed to achieve a desired shock stroke sag while also affecting where the rear axle sits at this sag point.





Anti-Squat

Enduro Round Up Anti-Squat 50T
Anti-squat for a 50-tooth cassette gear.

Enduro Round Up Anti-Squat 24T
Anti-squat for a 24-tooth cassette gear.
Enduro Round Up Anti-Squat 10T
Anti-squat for a 10-tooth cassette gear.

Anti-squat is describing how the bike is going to react to acceleration and the load transfer that comes with it. We've taken a really close look at anti-squat in our Enginerding article, which goes into the details of how we analyse it, what assumptions we need to make and what happens when we come back to real life with our anti-squat percentages and curves.

Anti-squat requires a chain in the mix for the analysis, and given we have multiple gears, that anti-squat figure changes depending what gear you are in. For our analysis we've chosen a light climbing gear, 50-tooth, a mid-pack gear, 24-tooth and the bottom of the cassette with the 10-tooth. All together we have thirty different curves, which put all onto the same graph becomes a good catalyst for making you go cross-eyed. So instead we've broken the anti-squat down into those three gears making it easier to digest. For the 29" bikes we took a chainring size of 30 teeth and for the 27.5" bikes it was 32 teeth.

The characteristics of the different suspension systems can also be seen here. The two Horst pivot bikes, the GT and the Specialized, show similar characteristics and the levels of anti-squat decrease as you go through the travel. The Orange keeps the horizontal theme going and this is where we start to see the recognizable curves of the Santa Cruz's short counter-rotating links which we'll see later on too. As the bottom link of the VPP suspension system rotates towards the end of travel it shoots the instant centre of the system forwards and down and so creates this exponential-like drop off in the curves.

With the Marin we actually see a relatively uncommon characteristic in having the anti-squat percentage increase as you go through the travel. This is down to the suspension design that Marin have employed on the Mount Vision with its use of normal rotating pivots as well as a large sliding cylinder.





Pedal Kickback


Enduro Round Up Pedal Kickback 50T
Pedal kickback for a 50-tooth cassette gear.

Enduro Round Up Pedal Kickback 24T
Pedal kickback for a 24-tooth cassette gear.
Enduro Round Up Pedal Kickback 10T
Pedal kickback for a 10-tooth cassette gear.

You ask and you shall receive.

Pedal kickback is looking at the resulting amount of crank rotation from a fixed length of chain as you go from zero to full travel. The distance between your bottom bracket and rear axle will usually change, but if the chain is a fixed length then something needs to give. Also consider that this chain extension can be a rotation at the rear wheel or simply a rotation of the cassette that will never be felt due to you travelling faster than the resulting tug on the cassette. But when you've got the cassette engaged, like when you're climbing or locking the rear wheel when braking, it can be something to consider.

We have the same deal for the pedal kickback as we did for the anti-squat, with the analysis broken down into the same three gear combinations. As there's some link between anti-squat and pedal kickback, it then makes it easy to correspond a certain amount of pedal kickback to the appropriate level of anti-squat for that bike.

A simple rule for all bikes is that as you increase the size of your cassette cog you will have more pedal kickback degrees. So, climbing gears will have more than your gears generally used for going downhill. What is also interesting to consider is that it's not just the amount of pedal kickback degrees, but how fast they are inputted to you as a rider. A bike that delivers you more pedal kickback but in a slower manner may be easier to deal with than a lesser amount of degrees dealt to you in a fast manner.

The Stage 6 shows the most pedal kickback, due to its high main pivot. The Mount Vision is not far behind in terms of degrees whereas the two Horst link bikes with generally low anti-squat percentages show lower levels of pedal kickback. All these bikes have fairly straight anti-squat curves and so have pretty damn straight pedal kickback curves. But when we look at the Megatower we again see a different shape of curve. With that extreme drop off in anti-squat towards the end of travel we also see a slight reduction in the amount of pedal kickback. It's not a complete reduction in the amount, as we've already generated quite a bit of pedal kickback before we get to the portion of the curve that flattens or drops, but compared to the Mount Vision, which the Megatower follows quite early on it would be between 2 to 3 degrees less.






Anti-Rise

Enduro Round Up Anti-Rise

Anti-rise is describing how the bike will react to the load transfer from applying the rear brake. It's got the same measurement in terms of a percentage but to calculate it we don't use the chain line and instead look at just our instant centre, front and rear contact patches and our center of gravity height. A bike with 100% anti-rise will theoretically neither extend or compress the suspension when you grab a load of rear brake. Below 100% the bike would extend, or rise. Above 100% the bike would compress the suspension.

All bikes in the enduro category exhibit less than 100% anti-rise, meaning that they should all rise somewhat due to the load transfer induced by braking. The Orange exhibits the highest anti-rise, thanks again to its relatively high pivot when compared to the rest of the bikes. The Marin and GT have the least deviation in the anti-rise curve, meaning that their response to load transfer is going to be pretty similar if you're at sag or at the end of your travel. The difference being the amount of rise being less with the Marin and more with the GT due to its lower anti-rise percentage amounts. A more consistent response from your bike could translate to more predictability.

The Specialized's anti-rise actually increases with travel, which could be perceived as a handy trait. At instances where you're deeper in your travel, and possibly have some violent terrain or actions causing this, the bikes suspension would react less to the load transfer from braking, reducing the number of things trying to unsettle your bike's geometry. It doesn't increase violently, meaning that it could still be seen as in a predictable amount of change, giving you some secret support while still not leaving you to second guess what the bike will do at any given moment.

With the Santa Cruz we see the characteristic curve shape that we came to recognise in the anti-squat graph. For the most part, the curves follow a very similar path and it's only towards the end of travel that we see the biggest change between the high and low chip positions. For the Santa Cruz the values either touch or go below zero. At zero the bike will not provide any countering force and the suspension will rise solely due to the load transfer. Below zero the bike will enter a pro-rise zone and exert an additional force that will help the bike rise even further. But due to the shape of these curves these tendencies would only be in the very final stages of travel.





Axle Path

Enduro Round Up Axle Path


All the curves on one graph with the same scale.

What is straight away clear is that all the bikes spend most of their travel with the axle moving forwards. Only in a full-on high pivot bikes, like the Forbidden Druid and Deviate Highlander, would we see that reversed and the axle moving rearward more than forwards.

That said, there are two clear groups of bikes here, with the Mount Vision and the Stage 6 not only having the most rearward travel but also the least forwards movement. Something that is reflected in the pedal kickback amounts, but something that will no doubt help their performance of the rear wheel and impacts in all travel positions.

On the other hand, the Megatower, Force and Stumpjumper EVO all have less rearwards movement of the axle coupled with far more forwards movement. The Megatower actually has the most forwards movement of the axle and is combined with the most pedal kickback of these three remaining bikes, due in part to its increased travel over the rest of the bikes.

The Stumpjumper EVO has almost no rearward movement in its axle path and despite being around 25mm less travel than the Megatower finished with the axle further forwards. In the way that one of the downsides of true high pivot bikes is their rapid change of geometry as you go through travel, this can also be true of the rear axle moving so far forwards.




Analysis Assumptions

Centre of Gravity (CoG) height is 1,150mm above the ground.

Anti-squat and anti-rise always assume a static center of gravity. In the real world this is rarely the case, but this needs to be done for analysis’ sake to allow it to be calculated and compared to other designs and bikes.

Fork is at full travel. There’s no industry standard for the fork in anti-squat and anti-rise analysis. Changing the fork travel to be at sag throughout the analysis does result in some change to the curves. Having the fork compress at the same rate as the rear suspension could be a more realistic way of analysing, but adds complication to the analysis and makes comparisons harder. As long as these assumptions about AS and AR are known and understood, it’s easier to analyse and compare bikes.







Final Thoughts

bigquotesIn some ways the sheer amount of bike designs we have out there is a blessing and a curse. It leaves our little mountain bike world interesting and exciting, but can make it oh-so-much-a-pain to decipher which bike is the best for you, your needs and terrain.

While we have tried to provide some clear and unbiased information about the bikes we analyse it's still about riding them. If you happened to have riding experience with any of the bikes, or can recognise certain traits in these graphs that you know your own bike exhibits then this is the most valuable information in helping you understand what works for you and what makes you have the most fun out there.

In conjunction with our on-going analysis of bikes we're also trying to help out with the understanding of the various terms we use to describe what is going on, how we actually analyse or calculate these figures, and how the real world of riding mountain bikes relates to the graphs and numbers.

Rather than output a best bike and a worst bike here, hopefully you can take away some information and see the different characteristics associated to some of the suspension layouts out there and how they might be of use or of hindrance to you when riding.

Look out for our next batch of Behind the Numbers, focussing on five trail bikes, and more Enginerding features looking to explain, discuss and provoke some chin scratching on the more technical side of bikes.

In the meantime, let us know which bikes you'd like to see analysed in the future and what technical terms you want laid out bare for the whole world to see.






Previous Behind the Numbers Articles:
Santa Cruz Megatower Suspension Analysis
GT Force Suspension Analysis
Orange Stage Six Suspension Analysis
Marin Mount Vision Suspension Analysis
Specialized Stumpjumper EVO Suspension Analysis
Introducing Behind the Numbers - A New Suspension Analysis Series


109 Comments

  • 140 0
 As someone who is colour blind, the graphs make no sense at all.
Please please label graphs in future :-)
  • 12 0
 Agreed on this - Great comparison! I just needed someone to map lines to bikes for me due to partial color blindness. Could you directly label the lines in the future? That would be awesome.
  • 6 0
 SAME HERE!
  • 5 0
 But they were proud of their graphs.... until.... someone pointed out the problem... good point. Most graphs should be labeled on the line or a simple numbering system per line if you don't want to crowd the graph.
  • 8 1
 @fssphotography: or just use various linestyles (dashed, dashed-dotted etc.)
  • 16 0
 Thanks for the feedback. The anti-squat and pedal kick back graphs are some of the hardest to make digestible. Especially when some of the bikes have multiple adjustments. But I'll try labelling the lines for future graphs and see how it comes out looking.
  • 7 0
 Not colorblind, but obviously the lines are still close to each other so it would be nice to be able to apply filters. As far as I could see, only the e-bikes got filtered out so that one is working correctly. Either way, I think nowadays it is probably possible to make a chart interactive if it is to be viewed on a website anyway. Not sure if MS Excel could do that. You can probably do that in (educational) alternatives like octave and geogebra.
  • 10 0
 @vinay: Interactive chart is a very good idea. Will look into it for the future graphs.
  • 3 0
 @dan-roberts:
Thanks Dan :-). Keep up the amazing work
  • 5 0
 @dan-roberts:
I'm also not color blind but in science we use cividis color scale for heat maps for this purpose. Bar charts, scatter plots and line graphs can be done with a combination of cvd colors and different patterns. No need for the complication of interactive charts
  • 1 0
 @zede: The interactive chart isn't necessarily just in order to be able to distinguish the different lines in the graph. Instead it is merely to remove some clutter, especially if for instance every bike reviewed here is added to a database so that an interested reader could compare any subset of bikes. Compare potential new bikes to what they already own or have ridden in the past. Another reason is that because we already see many lines follow a more or less similar path, you get the effects of optical illusion for the lines crossing those paths. So yeah, it might become a tool usable beyond just this article.
  • 3 1
 @dan-roberts: Simple work-around for now would be to put the legend items in the same order as the lines on the chart, maybe prioritized at the end of travel where there seems to be the most separation between bikes.
  • 1 0
 A former coworker was also colour blind and similarly struggled looking at graphs, plots, drawings, etc prepared by colour seeing people. He had software where you could mouse-over any pixel and it would tell you the colour. Not as nice as labeling each line, but might be a work-around for ya.

Another idea: For the SC Megatower above, there are four lines which busy up the graph. I wonder if the collective set of lines could be shown as a band instead, knowing that you can adjust where you are within the band by settings on the bike. Less definitive, but more visually appealing and simpler when comparing to a range of other bikes with distinctly different curves.
  • 1 0
 @husstler: I was initially looking on my phone and assumed they'd done that - nope.
  • 2 0
 yeah the graphs are very pretty but i have a hard time using the legend to match the colors to the curves.
  • 2 0
 Hmm just looked it up, 8.5% of the population is colorblind. So yeah to a lot of people those graphs offer some difficulty.
  • 2 0
 Same problem here Frown
  • 3 0
 I’m staring blankly at the screen thinking there’s got to be a better way! I’m in the same colorblind boat!
  • 2 1
 @50percentsure: it only hinders me about 5% of the time...the other 95% it really doesn’t matter. But that 5% generally results in getting made fun of....
  • 3 3
 @Tamasz: braille as well....also, label in every language spoken in the northern hemisphere
  • 3 0
 @ScottTheRider didn't have to wait long for an example of that being made fun of eh? /\
  • 3 0
 @Mrbeau: nope generally in my work it’s a grab that brown scotchbrite.... I stand there blankly looking at red(brownish), green(slightly less brownish) and brown(looks the basically same as the other two). Only to get a response of what’s the matter? Can’t find the right brown?! Only to then find out they’re all mixed up to begin with....
  • 2 1
 Graphs are like jokes in that if they need an explanation they were executed properly.
  • 3 0
 same here!
  • 2 0
 same here. sorry for the reps.
  • 14 0
 Interesting how the slider-equipped much-hyped Marin is very similar to the single-pivot Orange in terms of Anti Squat, Pedal Kickback and axle path.
  • 8 0
 Marketing can't defy physics as much as Marin would like it to.
  • 14 1
 Yep, a lot of complication for basically the same outcome.

Orange development meeting: *Mtg number 1* *two dudes in jeans and hoodies in a cafe looking at a napkin*: "Hey, I drew this up today, what do you think?" "Hm, looks good, lets do it".

Marin development meeting: *Mtg number 75* *seven people in lab coats in a large white sterile room looking at a screen attached to a super computer*: "Shit! 18 months and 135 iterations later and we essentially have a f*cking single pivot Orange!" "Oh well, we'll come up with a crazy name for the suspension and it'll at least give us an excuse for such a horrific looking bike." "Naild it".
  • 11 0
 Orange be like I am linear and what you gonna do about it? you'll do nothing! put a progressive shock and stfu
  • 11 0
 pick a leverage rate and be a d*ck about it!
  • 4 0
 Push or ext with hydraulic bottom out control
  • 6 1
 These are great articles for us enginerds. Well done @dan-roberts.
And good job accepting feedback for continuous improvement.RE visual presentation for the colorblind folks. I think their comments would improve the digestibility for all.
  • 3 0
 Stump evo here: very linear, I want to fill the shock with spacers but it's a personnal preference. You will need a very good shock with effective settings to handle it. For smooth trails, mid travel support is good, flying carpet mode.
  • 3 0
 I demoed a stumpy and it was amazing fun. Blew through the travel HARD though on the bigger stuff. Definitely prefer my Marin.
  • 1 0
 @SalamandrD: yes, I usually ride my bike with stiff suspension, but this bike make you want more supple supsension an BAAAM, eats all the travel in a berm
  • 5 0
 Spacer removal on the shock for 55mm stroke/154mm travel helps a bit, as do the bigger 1.02 volume spacer.

In my experience a more linear ratio seems to work better for rougher natural trails, less so for more flowy stuff or jumps and bikepark features
  • 1 0
 When I was running a Fox damper on the comp level Stumpy I was having the same issues. Went to bump up the volume spacer to help prevent bottoming and found out it comes with the second largest one available stock. Not much tuning to be had. Now on a DVO Topaz, handles the smooth stuff and feels okay on the big stuff, more volume tuning available on it. Feel the damping is light though, need to run rebound almost fully closed, considering slightly heavier oil but want to run that by the DVO guys first. Only complaints with the Stumpjumper platform, other than that I love it!
  • 6 0
 Take a look at the Cascade Components Stumpjumper link. Mine currently sits in customs of course lol
  • 2 0
 @NotNamed: nice but not cheap. I'd like to try it.
  • 1 0
 I have an EVO and it is awesome except for any type of flat drop, lol!
  • 2 0
 @NotNamed: The Cascade Components link really helps provide progression to the Stumpy Evo. Well worth the coin. Hope you get yours soon!
  • 1 0
 Agreed, on the linearity. It is a weapon with an X2 rear shock and a few spacers though.
  • 2 0
 I fixed all my stumpy evo issues by selling the frame lol. It was a big upgrade over my 2016 Enduro, however the 2020 META AM is a leap ahead of the Evo to me and where I ride. The rear suspension is beautiful. Not saying the evo is a bad bike, but the rear suspension kinematic wasn't my bag.
  • 1 1
 @Brasher: Meta are nice bikes but I had my first and only Commencal 17 years ago and the conclusion was: never again. And I can't stand their eco-marketing bullshit: No carbon frame because you can't recycle it? But no problem with e-bikes battery...
  • 3 0
 I appreciate that pinkbike publish this kind of article but I wonder why wheel forces and wheel rates are not displayed as well?
They show how the suspension feels/works for a given combination of frame and shock. The other metrics displayed in the article kind of show half of the reality...
@Dan-roberts this could be an idea for a future article: show the wheel rates and forces for both a linear and a progressive bike equipped with a small air can shock, a large air can shock and a coil shock targeting the same SAG and/or the same bottom out force for a given rider weight.
  • 1 0
 @dan-roberts
Maybe works better Smile
  • 13 8
 I want the graph on Anti Rise on my T-shirt with text above it: Involountary Celibate
  • 1 0
 (TM) 2020
  • 6 0
 I was right, the Grimm Dognut is off the charts.
  • 2 0
 The difference between the "high" and "low" settings on the GT force are really interesting. The High setting is more progressive, has a more rearward axle path, more anti-squat, etc.

I used the "low" setting on my force all last season, and quite liked it aside from the super low BB. I will be running it in the "high" setting this season to see how I like the comparison. So far I notice that it climbs markedly better, and I'm not bashing my pedals on everything for a change. We'll see how it fairs if and when the bikeparks open again...
  • 2 0
 @dan-roberts : bought the Spesh EVO pro... really good bike, but so many PSI into my DPX2 (with biggest volume spacer), Bike is super linear
i do not understant your graphs as i'm not as smart as PB people but i really appreciate all your explanations!
#FastUnderstandingIfLongExplanation
  • 2 0
 Still trying to increase my understanding of this, but it seems like the GT Force has a nice balance and made good priority / compromise choices (I mean everything with bikes is about compromise and choosing where to focus and where not to). Not a bad package considering the price and what they spec with the bike and comparing the numbers to the more expensive brands here. Plus Martin Maes was quite fast on it, a shame about the ban that ruined his season.
  • 1 0
 "The Megatower actually has the most forwards movement of the axle and is combined with the most pedal kickback of these three remaining bikes, due in part to its increased travel over the rest of the bikes."

Perhaps why reviewers felt it was harsh? My Mondraker Foxy 29 felt quite harsh over repeated hits and I suspect that the mostly forward axle path was a major contributor.
  • 3 0
 General consensus from the megatower connoisseurs out there is that the harshness reviewers reported is due to the high (relatively, it's medium per rockshox) compression damping tune on the shock, particularly the Rockshox superdeluxe ultimate air shock. The reason it has a higher damping tune on it is because the leverage ratio is relatively high as seen here and needs more damping to avoid blowing through the travel. Most people who have ridden the bike with multiple shocks, myself included, have noticed that the harshness is only with the stock air shock and if you buy another one (x2 is very popular) or run a coil, the bike runs a lot smoother.
  • 1 2
 @tgent: Good to know. I will say from personal experience though, a rearward or vertical path is considerably smoother over repeated hits than a forward path.
  • 1 1
 I wonder where the Mega fits in here, being the Enduro champion 3x and all.
  • 1 0
 @fruitsd79: Mega as in Nukeproof?
  • 2 0
 @mtbgeartech: Yes, that is the bike the 3x champion rides.
  • 1 0
 Interesting data viz challenge with the anti-squat charts. Keeping the y-axis consistent across charts makes it easy to see the effect of changing gears, but also makes it difficult to compare across bikes in the primary 50t chart.

One possible solution: truncate the y-axis in the primary chart, then show charts for all three gears on the same scale below.

Great work all around on this series, @dan-roberts. I've enjoyed reading and look forward to the trail series. Would love to see a high pivot trail bike and a dw-link bike included.
  • 1 0
 My son is on a Force. It's too small for me, but I will say that he loves the "playfulness" of it. Very poppy. A lot of his similar-sized friends have taken spins on it, and they too say it feels more responsive and playful than their bikes (also high-end enduro race bikes, but mainly 29ers).
  • 1 0
 Word on the street is the Mondraker Foxy has too linear of a frame to pair up with most coil shocks. I know many who still run coil on them, but say...even Push will not fit an 11Six shock to my Foxy.

Could you explain that in relationship to these charts? Is the leverage ratio of the Foxy more like the Megatower or the Stage 6? Aren't there some new springs by Canecreek or MRP that might work better?
  • 1 0
 @dan-roberts:

We constantly hear about the need for a bike to have a progressive suspension curve in order to work well with a coil shock. Can you help me understand that assumption? Specifically, to run a coil successfully, is it ideal to have a higher amount of progression, or is it more important that the end stroke leverage ratio just be as low as possible (say, approaching 1:1)?

In theory, you could have a very progressive bike that still has a very high ending stroke leverage ratio (4:1 moving to 2:1, for instance) or you can have fairly low progression while having a low ending stroke leverage ratio (1.1:1 moving to 1:1), so it isn't clear to me which factor is more important.
  • 4 0
 Thanks for this, would have liked a DW link bike in there for comparrison
  • 2 0
 So, does reading these articles make you feel smarter or dumber by the end? It's a mixed bag for me. So many technical terms!
  • 4 0
 I go strait to the comments.
  • 1 1
 A few bikes obviously have the wrong size chainring on them. If a bike has high pedal kickback in the lower gears it ahould have a bigger chainring on it. The orange 6 looks like shit in kickback soeley cause it should have had a 32,33,34 instead of a 30t chainring. Any of these bikes sans idler will have different and shitty characteristics if you dont outfit the correct chainring.
  • 2 0
 This just goes to show some bike manufacturers have no business making bikes! They just slap on some copied linkage and expecting the shock to do all the work!
  • 2 0
 Would be interesting to see how these bikes compare on trails to the numbers on a graph.
  • 3 0
 I thought you didn't care about this stuff? Wink
  • 4 2
 @dan-roberts: Numbers on their own don't tell you much. If they can describe any difference on the trail then the numbers will mean something. Its pointless just to talk about the graphs on their own.
  • 1 0
 You can go to @ biketechspert on instagram to request a frame analysis. You can also find out what spring rate you should get for your frame.
  • 3 1
 I saw the pic, and I thought maybe, just maybe it would be about the Grim Donut.
  • 1 0
 Great stuff - keep it coming! I'd really enjoy more of this over the coming weeks, especially as there's less riding to be done.
  • 3 0
 Pick a curve and be a dick pound about it.
  • 2 0
 Bikes to analyse in the future, the mentioned Druid and highlander, revel or Canfield bikes, zerode taniwha.
  • 2 0
 There`s some sort of lockdown going on - ha?
  • 1 0
 Lots of time to go full bike nerd.
  • 1 0
 Any chance of posting the data in a git repro?
I'd like a play but I'm not a box capable of running linkage.
  • 2 4
 We have a quite a few Oranges we rent out with various rear shocks. The shocks make a big difference. I have a Stage 6 personally and with the X2, my god this bike is fun. Fastest bike I have ever rode and I get to ride a lot.
  • 2 4
 We have a quite a few Oranges we rent out with various rear shocks. The shocks make a big difference. I have a Stage 6 personally and with the X2, my god this bike is fun. Fastest bike I have ever rode and I get to ride a lot.
  • 2 0
 Multiple Pinkbike accounts?
  • 2 0
 I couldn't even read a graph until Covid 19 hit the streets.
  • 1 0
 How the F*** do the Dudes of Hazzard run coils on their Orange bikes?
They must love blowing through travel.
  • 2 0
 Shocks with proggressive coils or bottom out control!!!!!!! But i think with the right regular coil and enough travel it also works.
I would like to test it myself on my single pivot but I'm afraid I bend the shaft due to the frame design (dartmoor blackbird). I've only ridden single pivots and always explode rear shocks and bottom out everywhere no matter how much air...Sags are crazy high if I want my bike to act like a full sus....9 bands right now inside my monarch plus.
My theory about single pivots and coils:
Coils offer the same resistance in all the travel so it starts to dissipate force earlier than air shocks.
Air shocks offer no resistance at all until the last quarter of the travel and then it is too late. Boom! you bottom out or better add some air...so friction (the main problem with air shocks) increases and you loose small bump sensitiveness...
Any experiences???
  • 1 0
 Can the Cat really shoot laser beams out of its eyes? Cyclops of the Xmen may take issue with this.
  • 2 0
 Would love to see a DW or split pivot in the future.
  • 1 1
 I'm a Long-High Megatower guy- sag around 28% and #oncoil. That's when the bike becomes very persuasive in the death-gnar.
  • 1 0
 Catpocalypse for the win!
  • 2 1
 Meghhhaaaa Tower be “towering” over then completion!
  • 1 0
 does not the caliper position interfere with anti-rise?
  • 2 1
 And all that info means absolutely nothing to 99.9% of riders out there
  • 1 1
 I just ride the damn thing, and let the nerds do the thinking for me.
  • 2 2
 Would love for you to analyze the YT Jeffsy 2019-2020 model.
  • 2 1
 progressive.
  • 1 0
 @makkelijk: ya but would like to see just how progressive it really is
  • 1 4
 We have a quite a few Oranges we rent out with various rear shocks. The shocks make a big difference. I have a Stage 6 as my personal bike and with the X2 is the fastest bike I have ever rode and I get to ride a lot.
  • 1 0
 dorks
  • 5 7
 All this has made me realise oranges aren’t great compared to everything else
  • 6 2
 You ridden one? Most rearward axle path and as someone said linear with a decent shock is not a bad thing and works well on natural stuff. I’ve got one and a v4L bike. The orange is much more fun and does not deaden the rise like some more sophisticated bikes. I can ride them side by side so not just keyboard warrior. Also external BB, takes 20 mins for a full pivot bearing change and they look mint in real life (well the small ones do!) Perfect bike for general Northern riding.
  • 1 0
 Deaden the ride sorry!
  • 2 0
 Too right. Apples are where it's at.
  • 1 0
 @jemscott: the top 3 most fun bikes I've ridden in 17 years odd have been single pivots. They have their place.
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