First Look: Shimano's New Deore 12-Speed Group & Other 2021 Updates

May 5, 2020 at 7:51
by Dan Roberts  

Almost a year ago, Shimano came out swinging with the launch of the XT and SLX 12-speed group sets, music to the ears of Shimano fans and people looking for an alternative to SRAM's 12-speed options.

The trickle down continues, and now they're releasing the new Deore 12-speed which takes inspiration from the higher tier XTR, XT and SLX parts while delivering an even lower price point. Not content with offering only one options, and with Shimano's love for product codes, the Deore name has accompanying 11 and 10-speed group sets which retain many of the same features but in even more value-focussed packages.

Additionally, there are some other updates to the rest of the Shimano line-up for 2021 with added crank set options, flat mount brake callipers plus bigger e-bike batteries to round out a very brain melting product launch.





Deore M6100 12-Speed

The Deore M6100 group set is the 12-speed option and uses the 10-51 tooth cassette range with the Micro Spline freehub, Hyperglide+ shifting technology, I-Spec EV shifter mount option and direct mount chainrings. That list of technologies means that the Deore group set shares the same standards with the higher SLX, XT and XTR group sets, so opens up the possibility of mixing and matching between component levels, allowing you to spend your money where you'd get the biggest bang for your buck.


Shimano Deore on Vancouver s North Shore 2020

Crank Set

The Deore 12-speed crank sets are single-ring only and use Shimano’s direct mount chain rings, available in 30 and 32-tooth options. Chainrings and spider are again a split affair with the spider being aluminum and the ring being steel to drop the cost. Being the same spider-less fitment means you can also run chainrings from the SLX, XT or XTR range.

The cranks are a two-piece construction - Shimano definitely know a thing or two about creating well engineered aluminium crank sets, and are available in 170 and 175mm lengths.

There are also three different chain line options available, 52mm, 55mm and 56.5mm with accompanying 172mm, 178mm and 181mm Q-factors to provide options for non-Boost (142mm), Boost (148mm) and Super Boost (157mm) rear hub spacing. Weight for the 170mm cranks with a 32 tooth ring is 778 grams.



Shimano Deore on Vancouver s North Shore 2020


Chains and Cassettes

The Deore 12-speed chain and cassette use Shimano's Hyperglide+ technology to have better shifting up and down the cassette under load. The 12-speed chain uses the same design ideas as its more expensive variants to match the shapes on cassette and chainring to ensure smooth shifting while having good chain retention.

The cassette still uses the Micro Spline freehub to allow to the smallest 10-tooth cog, but now sees all the cogs made from steel, with only the 10-51 tooth option available at Deore level. You could mix and match with the SLX or XT 10-45 tooth cassettes if you were after a smaller range. The cassette runs a following gear progression: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51, which is the exact same as XT and SLX. It weigh in at 593 grams.

Once again, it's only in the use of Shimano cassettes and chains where you'll benefit from that Hyperglide+ shifting. You can run other manufacturers' chains, but you would lose that full-system crispness from the use of a full Shimano setup.



Shimano Deore on Vancouver s North Shore 2020
Shimano Deore on Vancouver s North Shore 2020

Shifters and Derailleurs

The 12-speed Deore derailleur is one-by only and there's only one option for cage length for accommodating the max 51-tooth cassette, with the familiar clutch mechanism and larger jockey wheels as the higher tier derailleurs.

Unfortunately, the shifters don't have the rubberised paddle that's seen on XT and XTR, but look wise they fit exactly the same outline and share many of the same reatures found on the higher tier shifters, like 2-way release feature that allows you to either push or pull to drop down one gear. Multi-release shifting, which gives riders the option of dropping two gears down the casette with one lever push, is only available on XT and XTR level shifters.

The mount options are the same too, with I-Spec EV for mounting direct to Shimano compatible brake levers, or the standard band clamp with a slim clamp for help in finding the right position on the bars. For Deore there is the optional gear display too.



Shimano Deore on Vancouver s North Shore 2020
Shimano Deore on Vancouver s North Shore 2020

Brakes

Two and four-piston options are available, using the same lever for both. The lever has been designed to have a quicker bite engagement with a shorter free stroke. Lever reach is adjustable with a hex key and the familiar design with the extra lever support is there to stiffen up the lever and give a better feel when pulling on it.

Both caliper options now have in-board hose routing for a cleaner cable routing on the inside of the rear triangle tubes but with fixed hoses. Calipers are compatible with Ice Tech brake pads and rotors and either resin or metallic pads can be used.



Shimano Deore on Vancouver s North Shore 2020

Hubs & Dropper Lever

Rounding out the Deore 12-speed group set are a pair of non-series, value priced hubs and dropper lever. The 12-speed hubs use their Micro Spline freehub and for the first time use cartridge bearings. Internally there's a pawl style freehub design and there are width options for Boost and non-Boost spacing on forks and frames.

The dropper lever uses either I-Spec EV for mounting to Shimano brake levers or a band clamp mount and can be used with all cable actuated dropper posts.



Prices & Availability

Deore M6100 parts are available immediately and pricewise look to be either on par or a bit cheaper, depending on the component, than SRAM SX options while having a slightly bigger gear range.

Shimano Deore M6100 Product Photos
Shimano Deore M6100 US Pricing






Shimano Deore M5100 11-Speed Product Photos
Shimano Deore M4100 10-Speed Product Photos

Deore M5100 11-Speed & M4100 10-Speed

The additional M5100 and M4100 Deore options see the value-oriented components coming in 11 and 10-speed drivetrains. There are further options for single and double chainrings within the two levels.

The 1x 11-speed crank set has 30 or 32-tooth options and options for boost and non-boost. The 11-51 tooth or 11-42 tooth cassettes work with Shimano's standard HG freehub and the dedicated 11-speed rear derailleur works for up to 51-tooth cassettes and uses the same clutch mechanism as the 12-speed Deore derailleur. The shifters have the same 2-way release and mount with I-Spec EV or band clamp fitment and feature the optional gear display too. The 11-speed group uses the 12-speed M6100 brakes giving the same two or four piston options and use of Ice Tech pads and rotors

The 10-speed Deore M4100 uses the same 1x crank set as 11-speed group, while also seeing its own dedicated double chainring crank option. M4100 uses two smaller cassettes with 11-46 and 11-42 teeth options that use the standard HG freehub fitment. There's some mix and match usage of the derailleurs between 11 and 10-speed, but there are options in cage length for both of the 42 or 46-tooth cassette options. Shifters have the same fitment options and 2-way release for changing to harder gears. 10-speed M4100 does see its own non-series brakes, though. Two and four piston options are available again, offering strong performance right down at a value level.

Deore M5100 and M4100 are available in the coming weeks. No hard date available from Shimano just yet and no information on pricing and weights.

Shimano Deore M6100 M5100 amp M4100 line up
A full Deore overview shows the three different lines with the overlap in some parts between group sets.







Shimano 2021 Extra MTB Updates Product Photos
Flat mount XTR, XT and SLX calipers are now available.
Shimano 2021 Extra MTB Updates Product Photos
Narrow Q-factor (171mm) wide chain line (56.5mm) crank options are increased for 2021.

Other 2021 MTB and E-Bike Updates

If you've made it this far then congratulations. And if your eyes are still pointing in the same direction then that's a bonus.

2021 sees more crank set options available from Shimano, bringing the total number of 12-speed compatible ones up to 22. 14 1x only and 8 2x options. Amongst these updated crank sets is compatibility with the ever more popular wider 56.5mm chain line required by some bikes to have a touch more space at the critical overlap point on the chain stay between tire and chain ring and give proper alignment to 157mm hubs. These crank set updates are across the board from XTR down through the hierarchy into the non-series cranks and feature such options as narrow 171mm Q-factor XTR options to keep the pedalling stance narrow while benefiting from the widened chainring position.

There are now five complete 12-speed compatible wheel options, all using the Micro Spline freehubs. Starting at XT level, the aluminum rimmed wheels trickle down to the more value focussed levels. 27.5" and 29" wheel sizes are available in boost and non-boost spacing with 28, 32 or 36-hole hubs. The 29" Deore wheelset in boost spacing comes in at 2230g.

For a bit of road bike technology on your mountain bike, Shimano is also making XTR, XT and SLX two piston calipers available in flat mount. The low-profile calipers will likely only be seen on cross-country bikes with the XTR option fitting a max 160mm rotor and the XT and SLX variation fitting up to 180mm with the use of adapters.

Last but not least, Shimano has announced larger capacity, internal and external e-bike batteries. The 630Wh batteries will maintain 60% of their capacity after a hard life of 1000 full charge cycles and the external, large capacity option uses a new battery fitment port. There's also direct mount chainrings available for e-bikes using a 157mm hub spacing, coming in 34 and 36-tooth sizes.







Photos: Sterling Lorence

mtb.shimano.com


496 Comments

  • 1292 21
 Bike companies: please please please spec this instead of SX and NX
  • 265 3
 SRAM will charge them double for the fork and shock if they do.
  • 20 2
 hear hear
  • 198 2
 Halleluiah! Shimano has rescued us from SX!
  • 56 4
 Please upvote this man into oblivion!
  • 1 0
 Sorry. Autocorrect.
  • 1 0
 Amen to that
  • 57 1
 Long live shimano!
  • 5 24
flag inked-up-metalhead (May 7, 2020 at 8:33) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: false. Jamis dakar a2 2018 had monarch/Reba suspension with deore 10spd and m39? Brakes. Suntour crank. All on a 1 grand bike.
  • 60 24
 This Been living with a NX drivetrain for an year, still can't believe how comically bad it is compared to the XT M8000 1x11 drivetrain I had before. The only good thing I have to say about the NX is the steel chainring, but Shimano even has that covered now
  • 59 15
 @Arierep: so... One from bottom tier is worse than one from top tier? I can't say I'm surprised. At all. In any way.
  • 29 1
 @Arierep: duh... did you think it was gonna be an upgrade because it had 12 speeds or something?
  • 1 1
 @Davec85: Is there truth to that?
  • 28 3
 @Davec85: Not a problem - use DVO.
  • 56 31
 @inked-up-metalhead: while not on the same tier level, I wouldn't go as far as calling the XT top level and the NX bottom.
Also, the NX issues I have are almost exactly the same my friends on GX have:
- huge derailleur just asking to be slapped
- derailleur cage made of cheese
- extremely finicky to adjust and in near constant need of readjusting
- disposable jockey wheels
- shifter ergonomics
- gear shifting under load
- ineffective derailleur clutch
  • 51 6
 Or spec Microshift!
  • 16 1
 @Svinyard: I don't have any hard evidence, and the double price is just an exaggeration, but it's basic business. Why do you think so many bikes come with SRAM brakes, suspension, gearing and dropper? They would no doubt get a package level deal that would be much cheaper than speccing Fox suspension, Shimano gearing, TRP brakes and a one-up dropper, for example.
  • 45 4
 @jordanrh: that's what I was thinking. The slx ripmo af is $300 cheaper than the gx eagle version. Even if those prices were reversed, the slx would still be the better buy
  • 45 1
 @Davec85: As good a reason as any to spec Marzocchi then.
  • 57 4
 This x1000000. Cannot stand cheap Sram products. At least we know entry level Shimano actually works...
  • 9 11
 @Arierep: no, xt is one from top as I said, and nx is one from bottom, as I said. And a lot of that is just a symptom of being a cheaper range. None of that apart from the size of the mech has been a problem for my mates 3 year old x01 Eagle. The better shifters have an adjustable big paddle.
  • 10 3
 @Fix-the-Spade: Marzocchi is basically budget fox
  • 16 1
 @Davec85: ripmo af comes with full dvo suspension for 3k and nx. Don't see why they can't swap out for deore. And other companies should be able to have similar suspension with deore in the 3k range if ibis can do it
  • 29 6
 @Arierep: Huh. I've been running GX Eagle for a year and I ride quite a lot and haven't needed to make any readjustments or jockey wheel replacements. I have SLX/XT on another bike and I find the XT jockey wheel actually wears out quickly, but haven't needed any readjustment there either. Overall GX performance seems good except for the shifter. The Shimano shifter with 2-way trigger and trigger double shift is more functional and has better ergonomics than the GX shifter. Now if Shimano could just get that wandering bite point issue figured out...
  • 13 0
 @Arierep: My NX derailleur's clutch is completely non-existent after 3 month's use (trash!). My first sram experience in a decade, and my new NX equipped bike is getting an SLX group 3 months later.
  • 2 0
 Amen, this looks awesome.
  • 8 0
 @Davec85: then please also spec other forks and shocks (Manitou, DVO, Suntour (only high-end ones), etc.)
  • 4 1
 @Arierep: that NX crank has a steel spindle too, that drivetrain is CRAP.

What’s wrong with an Aluminum chainrings I’ve got 1300km on a GX drivetrain and my chain isn’t close 50% wear yet.
  • 2 0
 @Arierep: having had to maintain my wife’s NX drivetrain that’s ridden less than my GX... I’m sorry your wrong I ditched the shitty NX and got her a GX setup. Not saying GX is awesome, but it’s less finicky and lighter.
  • 15 2
 @dthomp325: sadly my GX drive train was not a positive experience. The rear mech essentially exploded with no impact- the thing just mis-fed the chain and split apart. I swapped with the X0 and have been happy. @Arierep I agree with @inked-up-metalhead- you can't compare XT to NX- I would say XT should be stacked and against X0, GX against SLX, and NX against Diore and in my experience Shimano takes all of those head to heads in price, durability and performance. However, X0 eagle has been a good drive train and at the end of the day we are arguing about things that are light years ahead of anything any of us were on 6 years ago.
  • 8 1
 @inked-up-metalhead: to be fair, a 1x12 NX drivetrain only groupset costs €260 here, a 1x11 SLX costs €275 and a 1x11 M8000 XT can be had for €300 (all street prices). Price wise, they are in the same area...
  • 2 0
 Correction: NX and SLX (M7000) are both €255, XT (M8000) is €289 without and €375 with chainring.
  • 16 21
flag OneTrustMan (May 7, 2020 at 9:48) (Below Threshold)
 I don't really get why people hype the replacement of cheap heavy Sram parts to cheap heavy Shimano parts. Recently I got to test ride 2 bikes from the LBS after they could open their shops again. Less restricktions. I wanted to know how good the new Shimano stuff is, but I'm not really impressed. The Orbea carbon bike had a SLX group, XT derailleur and with XT 4 piston brakes. The brakes were good. Levers feel too small for my hands,but I could get used to it. Power was a bit less compared to my Guide RSC. Overall great brakes and they look good too. The SLX shifter looks and feels really cheap. I can understand why not many want it. Shifting was ok, but the derailleur is clunky and load. Shifting into smaller cogs with a huge tank sound like bang surprised me a bit. Way loader than my Sram derailleurs. The first ride ended quickly, because the clutch got somehow stuck in the middle. After shifting to the 10t the chain was all lose laying on the chain stay. The LBS gave me another Orbea this time with a full XT group. Definitely better than SLX, but still very load and clunky down shifting. Up shifting under load was good, but not a gazillion gorrilian times better than so many claim. I think it's great that Shimano has gave me more options, but I really don't get the hype
  • 3 4
 @Davec85: not Surprising. Tied selling is illegal in most jurisdictions, but there’s 1001 ways around it unfortunately...
  • 1 0
 Yes please
  • 13 55
flag thenotoriousmic (May 7, 2020 at 9:50) (Below Threshold)
 @snl1200:
top tier xx1
2nd x01 / xtr
3rd GX / XT
4th NX / SLX
5th SX / deore. Anything below GX / XT not really worth bothering with unless you’re just started riding seriously or it’s all you can afford because it’s cheap and doesn’t last. Spending the extra to get better quality stuff pays for itself if you’re planning on keeping it for a significant amount of time.
  • 16 1
 @thenotoriousmic: tier-wise: yes. Quality wise, I'd personally far prefer XT to GX and SLX to NX. Build quality between GX and SLX seems comparable, no matter the rank SRAM and Shimano give these groups within their lineup.
  • 9 2
 @Arierep: I’ve had bikes with both 11 speed gx and 12 the past couple years and I ride lifts a couple times a week and go for other rides too and I have had zero issues with anything. I’ve had zero dropped chains or messed up derailleurs. 12 speed has tighter tolerances so it will be more finicky than 11 or 10 but once you get it right and the cables stretch there’s no issues and you’re not supposed to shift under load. I’ve also broken everything or worn out every original part on my one bike except the gx drivetrain and half the frame (all the hardware, bearings, axle and part of the frame either broke or wore out) so gx can definitely take a beating and still work fine.
  • 9 0
 @Davec85: marzocchi + deore great combo
  • 8 46
flag thenotoriousmic (May 7, 2020 at 10:23) (Below Threshold)
 @Mac1987: that’s just your opinion. Personally I buy shimano because it’s cheap, it’s always heavily discounted online which is great when your running serval bike but there’s absolutely no chance I’m putting that shit on my main bike. Sram is made to a much higher standard, lasts longer and works better.
  • 2 7
flag Momemomay (May 7, 2020 at 10:27) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: They should buy FOX, it's better product anyway.
  • 5 0
 @thenotoriousmic: No one can blame you for being a quitter on this one. I've seen your argument in various shape or form in about a dozen article on Shimano and SRAM at least.

Bottom-line of all these back and forth: while they compare on price, it's not clear if they are perceived as competitors in the way you describe them because XTR is top of line (in most markets), and XX1 is top of line.

In marketing, perceived value often outweighs price.
  • 2 0
 @DaFreerider44: not now that fox redesigned their lowers the forks don't even look similar now and use completely different damping.
  • 9 0
 @thenotoriousmic: @thenotoriousmic: That hasn't been my experience. However, in the past I've always run SLX or higher (Usually XT/XTR) and find the quality/cost/performance ratio to be better with Shimano. My current set up on my mountain bike is an X0 Eagle though and it is a great drive train. It has served me well. At the end of the day these are really "first world" arguments as all of these set ups are huge leaps from what we used to ride. I don't think we are in a place where one is amazing and the other is crap anymore- both are amazing and make a range of stuff so people have a choice. Personally, I won't mess with GX, NX, or SX for shifting duties but I will mess with Deore. I think at the value end Shimano has more precision. I was going to replace the Deore on my Surly off road touring bike after buying it but it has been beaten up and remained surprising smooth so it stays!
  • 5 5
 @guylovesbike: I suppose it matters how long you’ve been interested in the sport. Xx1 is pretty new. I’m old, I grew up with x0 vs XTR debates, I was firmly XTR but all I could afford was LX. All you’d need to do is look at the prices. XT/GX and XTR/X01 are priced comparatively where XX1 is in the silly money category.
  • 6 4
 @thenotoriousmic: I paid for for my XO1 1x11 drivetrain on my Orbea and I couldn't be happier. I bought a carbon hardtail with a 2x11 SLX drivetrain and wasn't too happy so upgraded to a full XT 1x11 setup and I am not impressed at all. The shifting is loud and not crisp at all and it seems like every other ride I'm having to make an adjustment of one kind or another. Every time I think it's my fault and put the derailleur hanger tool on figuring it's out of alignment but nope. Last issue with it I took my wheel off to service the hub.It was shifting fine before hand but when I put it back in it was shifting like crap again. About the only thing I do like about it is the ability to push or pull to drop gears. The brakes aren't the best I've ridden but they don't give me the problems that everyone likes to complain about. All that being said I've got another 1x11 X01 setup sitting on the shelf waiting for my new frame.
  • 2 0
 @Davec85: Fox spec or Marzocchi or.... DVO?
  • 1 1
 @dthomp325: How much did SRAM pay you to say this? I mean, I'll say I just replaced my 11 speed GX derailleur atfer 3 seasons of abuse. Great stuff, but 12 speed... you are an exception to most experiences from what I've heard and seen.
  • 8 0
 @lifeofloon: you've got something else going on. Maybe a cable issue or something. I just bikepacked 1500km including heavy monsoon rains every afternoon with 1x11 xt and never had to mess with it. Rarely have I ever had to touch the xt/xtr 1x11 on my trailbike either. And if you service your hub, and the cassette doesn't line up in the same spot after, that's not a derailleur issue. If you're stoked on xo1 I'm not trying to talk you out of it. Just saying your experience sounds unusual.
  • 1 0
 @snl1200: IDK, I guess everyone has their own experiences. I currently have a ton of miles on both GX Eagle and 11speed XT, while in the past I've had plenty of experience with 11speed GX, X01, and XT. I haven't had much trouble with any of them. GX Eagle derailleur bolt does have a tendency to work itself loose while riding, which is maybe why people need to readjust a lot. Myself and friends have had this issue and the shifting does go off when the bolt loosens up. Loctite and over torquing a bit has eliminated that issue for me.
  • 3 0
 @dthomp325: My experience is that even with X01/XX1 stuff is that shops and users don't setup the B screw right (its a ONE time annoyance) using the YouTube instructions from SRAM. The B screw needs to be set AT SAG and using the little red tool. Is it annoying? Sure but its a set and forget that's easy with a friends help. Most eagle issues I run into are fixed by that along with a proper tune. GX durability seems to be an issue tho
  • 1 0
 To the moon!
  • 3 0
 @Honda750: hmm, your experience is very different to mine. I managed 300km (admittedly hard Kms) before my GX Eagle chain was toast, as in not shifting. I never measured it, but held it up against a new XO1 chain and it was visibly different. I've got a fairly hard 1000km on the XO1 chain and it's still sweet. Rest of the groupset, I have zero complaints.
  • 1 0
 @inked-up-metalhead: Only problem that came up with that set up...was the frame...
  • 1 0
 @feldmana: not terrible tbh, 142 rear end, tapered head tube, iscg 05 tabs, internal routing with proper cable guides for the ports and stealth dropper routing. Reasonably light and pretty well finished.
  • 1 0
 @Davec85: Is this true? Do you have any source for that? Would be interesting to know.
  • 1 1
 @Davec85: if sram charges more for suspension, that's ok.. rather have FOX anyway. Win / Win!
  • 5 1
 @thenotoriousmic: ...and I would say comparing them based on price is part of the problem because I think SRAM prices their stuff too high based on what it offers in the lineup. XT typically offers top tech and quality with a little less refinement and weight savings (marginal) which is the same as X0's placement. X0 is great stuff IMO but certainly not a full tier above XT in quality or performance. I would say the qaulity and performance between the two is a close comparison (I would take XT all day over X0 personally but think they are reasonably close). XX1 and XTR are both top level refinement with the added weight savings. So I think sure price wise you could compare them but doing so puts Shimano a whole tier ahead in value as XT is far better than GX in my opinion for value, quality, and technology. This isn't a slight on SRAM- I use them and like them- I just think Shimano is the better value currently.
  • 2 1
 @fiatpolski: This is very well known in the industry. SRAM basically gives certain stuff away if you spec a bike with their groups. Why do you think every bike with SRAM comes with reverbs? They give them away. There used to be a local shop where I live that wanted to have their own line of cheap hardtails to sell. The deal they were offered by SRAM was too hard to pass up. They were basically going to get stuff like brakes, dropper for free if they specced the bikes with sram/rockshox top to bottom. Also, the pricing of NX at OEM is so cheap it's almost as if it was free.

Since Shimano doesn't make suspension their margins could be way higher by just going SRAM because the pricing on forks couldn't be beat if they went with everything else SRAM.
  • 3 0
 @dthomp325: For sure. An N of 1 doesn't say much. I was just shocked at the failure... which may have been a unicorn experience or one-off issue. I was also a person who has had two reverb seatposts over the past six years with zero issues despite heavy use and know that others have had huge issues... so I also get that sometimes you get lucky and other times you don't. Overall I think we are in a privileged position to argue over a range of products are generally really really good. I remember back when it was just Shimano (or suntour for a bit) and that stupid pin on the XT derailleurs would snap leaving the thing flaccid and useless. SRAM X9 was a godsend as they had a burlier system that could be bent and not snap- then came shadow from Shimano and things improved. I'm happy these companies can battle it out to make better products for us.
  • 6 4
 @thenotoriousmic: sram and rockshox are overprices pieces of utter shit!!!
  • 1 4
 @Svinyard: They work great when you do it all correctly, including the chain sizing steps. I just hate that they make it so complicated. I'd happily take easier adjustments and setup for slightly worse shifting, especially working in shops.
  • 2 0
 @inked-up-metalhead: but... ok, forget about XT.
SLX has the same perfomance as XT and is even cheaper than NX.
  • 1 1
 @mafflin: yes. And way superior. The only different thing between xtr and slx is few hundred grams and rapidfire shifting now.
  • 2 0
 @snl1200: except GX is more expensive than XT. Great that it fits in the line-up against SLX, but if I buy a new drivetrain I only care about price and performance. So you're right, but the difference gets more extreme even. NX is interior to Deore, but prices equal to SLX. GX is at best comparable to SLX, but more expensive than XT. It gets even worse when comparing the wear parts (see the pricing on Eagle cassettes...).
It's a good thing for SRAM that they managed to do so well in the OEM market, because I would never buy it aftermarket at the current prices. The same goes for their suspension, but they are lucky the other popular brand is priced just as high.
  • 1 0
 @Uchwmdr: Which you can have rapidfire shifting with any as long as you get the XT or above shifter. So basically $10 gets you the multi-shift even on Deore.
  • 2 1
 @mhoshal: Well there's that, but Marzocchi is OG budget fox.
  • 2 0
 @gus6464: FWIW, the new C1 Reverb is Devine. None better.
  • 6 1
 @inked-up-metalhead: Except in NZ the NX DR is the SAME price as the XT

And that new Deore DR is made of metal, instead of the cheese masquerading as plastic that the SX DR has. And it's not a hard cheese, like Parmesan,, but more like a ripe Camembert.
  • 2 4
 @SlackBoy: OK. But regardless of price, xt is second from top in shimanos range (only xtr above it) and nx is second from bottom in srams range (only sx below). You can't argue with that.
  • 5 0
 @inked-up-metalhead: and how is that relevant for a buyer? A Porsche Boxter is the lowest model Porsche and the Kia Stinger is the highest model sportscar from Kia. They are about the same speed though.
Also, I don't give a rats bottom about position within a range. I care about price and performance. If SX street prices are only €50 lower than XT , I will compare them as rival options. And I will choose XT.
  • 1 0
 @inked-up-metalhead: SX should be NX in my response.
  • 2 0
 If they do, then I can finally buy a new bike!!
  • 2 2
 @Mac1987: because someone was comparing the quality, and you can't compare the quality when they're not made to be equal, its unfortunate when exchange rates or just local politics or whatever Jack's the prices up of one brand over another but thats a different comparison. Of course if they're the same price you'd get xt, what kind of idiot do you think I am, but saying 'nx isnt as good as xt' is a no brainer, which is how this started.
  • 2 1
 @inked-up-metalhead: but aren't SLX and NX made to be equal if they are priced equal? I can develop a car to compete with a VW Polo, but if I price it at a Passat level, I will have to compete with that car, whether I like it or not.
  • 2 1
 @inked-up-metalhead: but we're actually agreeing: NX is overpriced and one should just buy SLX or XT depending on local prices.
  • 1 0
 What is the Microspline adoption now with wheels and hubs? Most OEM don't spec Shimano hubs/wheels or fancy DT/I9.
  • 2 0
 @smoothmoose: Novatech's doing OE microspline hubs now, since they seem to make everyone's hubs it probably won't be much of an issue.
  • 2 1
 @Mac1987: who’s actually buying slx / NX though? Bike manufacturers, in bulk to sell on completes on entry level bikes that ether get ridden a few times and the owner moves onto something else or replaced and upgraded as the rider progresses and breaks parts. Most riders are looking to invest in at least XT / GX if it’s something they’ve done for a while and plan on doing in the future.
  • 1 0
 @mountainsofsussex: I’m 195lbs, and can crank out some watts, but I’m a clean freak when it comes to my drivetrain. I wipe down and lube with finish line dry before almost every ride.
  • 1 3
 @Davec85: And, rightly so, business is business.
  • 2 1
 @gus6464: It's more of a philosophy. Sram helps their bottom line with the OEM stuff and then makes profits when you need a new cassette or brake lever. Their prices are significantly higher aftermarket than Shimano. Their middle and low end stuff is also just not engineered to the level that Shimano does. So when you break that low end derailleur for the second time you upgrade to x01.

Shimano makes their aftermarket parts affordable and probably only give a slight deal to oem. I'm hoping that they use the 10 and 11 speed deore sets to get more competetive with Srams OEM prices while still offering 12 speed at a great price to the consumer.

Still $600 for a solid 12 speed drivetrain and 4 piston brakes is a damn good deal. Pair it with a Marzochhi fork and something like the Kona Honzo from this years bike test becomes a hell of deal.
  • 2 0
 YES Shimano all the way!!! I had NX on my brand new bike and didn't last about 1 month. So i upgraded to XT Deore and still running straight for 3 years with no issues!!!
  • 4 0
 @Davec85: Shimano Deore/Foxocchi FTW
  • 2 2
 @Davec85: fox makes better products anyway...
  • 2 0
 @Arierep: I chucked the M8100 deraileur on my bike after all the NX eagle headaches. The derailleur and shifter is you need, and it integrates flawlessly with the Eagle cassette chainring.
  • 1 0
 @OneTrustMan: um... Find a new lbs. They didn't set the drivetrain up right. The chain dragging in the 10t should have been your first clue.
  • 1 1
 @Davec85: *cough* fox is better*cough*
  • 2 0
 @Davec85: Marzocchi can fix that
  • 3 0
 @OneTrustMan: If that was your experience with a new xt derailleur then I can tell you it was not setup correctly, the exact b limit adjustment and proper chain length are crucial for the wide range cassette. The New xt shifts beautifuly, anyone saying otherwise just has not adjusted it properly.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: with new bikes at 5k coming with gx/slx that's not what I'd call "something cheap you pass on after a short while"
  • 2 0
 Tiers within a range don't matter, it's about price vs performance. If prefer slx a million times over gx, even if it is theoretically "second from the top tier".
Real comparison is done on the market, say I have 300€ for a new drivetrain, I don't care about tiers. I see xt I buy because it's the best at that price, doesnt matter to me that complete bike sellers spec that at ultra high end bikes because of some rockshox suspension oem deals
  • 2 0
 I have not been super happy with my SLX 7100 rear derailleur. The clutch doesn't seem to work properly in the smallest cogs. Measured at the bottom jockey wheel, there is 1-2cm of forward play that is totally free before the clutch engages. It makes the chain very slappy in the higher gears. I have observed that I can half fix it by changing to the target gear from a higher (smaller) gear. For example, if I want gear 10, I can change to that gear from 8, 9 or 11. If I change from 9 to 10 the clutch does not engage properly. If I change from 11 to 10, stretching the chain out, the clutch does engage properly. Has anyone else had this problem? I am under the impression that the clutch parts are exactly the same in 7000, 8000, 9000, 7100, 8100 and 9100 derailleurs. I would upgrade to an XT 8100 if it was going to fix the issue.

Second thing. I picked up a stick in the back wheel last night and it bent my 7100 cages very badly. No damage to the mechanism. I have worked it back straight enough to hit all the gears both ways but it is still going to need replacing. I can't find any replacement cages online. OneUp and Garbaruk make/made them but not for the SLX 7100. Is anyone aware of another company that makes cages only? Would the cages from a Deore 6100 fit on the 7100 do you reckon? Should I buy another SLX and hope for a better one, or bite the shit sandwich and upgrade to XT?
  • 1 0
 @mgrantorser:
The chain was alright.
It was the cage that got stuck in the middle and wouldn't move anymore.
I tried to move it by hand, but it felt really stiff.
Don't ask me how. Maybe something like a little rock got inside the cage and blocked it's movement.
  • 1 0
 @tfriesenftr:
I could make the very same argrument about people complaining about their Sram derailleurs.

Shifting on the full XT was not bad at all.
It shifted great, but the loud and clunky downshifts on the smaller cogs were surprising.
  • 2 0
 @Arierep: Nx and XT are not equal SMDH
  • 1 1
 @MrDiamondDave: sorry mate, but in what place do you read me saying XT and NX are equal?
  • 1 0
 NX and SX are now dead in the water.
  • 3 0
 @Honda750: 1300km with a a 50% worn chain?? Crikey, not all of us weigh 6kg Smile
  • 1 0
 Crazy amount of upvotes on this, I'm glad others feel similarly about this!
  • 1 0
 @steviegee27: 1187 upvotes... Is it a first in pinkbike history?! :O We're not the only Shimano fans I guess haha
  • 1 0
 @Timo82: Seriously. PB needs find the 19 people who downvoted this and ban them (and this is from a guy that has a full SRAM groupo and loves it)
  • 2 0
 @Svinyard: I just hope SRAM is reading this! Their products are competitive IMO but there prices are not. Their saving grace at this point IMO is the proprietary freehub drivers. Personally would not pay for a SRAM Cassette if I could easily swap in a Shimano without needing to swap freehub drivers.
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: hahaha love it!

I guess you have higher end Sram groupo? Razz
  • 1 0
 @Timo82: Indeed X01, which i'd happily swap to Shimano. I wouldn't switch to their brakes tho, Code RSC's are just incredible, no compromise brakes. I'd do Saints if I was DH'ing all the time tho.
  • 2 0
 comment of the decade
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: I had Saints after my Guide RSC (put them on my fatbike which is perfect for winter as you don't want a lot of power to slow down) but didn't like them. The power was cool but not on steep/wet/rocky stuff! On/Off is not for me... Now have Hope and couldn't be happier! I always had Shimano but once bought a used bike with xx1 11s and it was good but really hated the shifter so was more than happy to switch for XT M8000. Now I'm waiting for my new frame to put M8100 which will be crazy!! Big Grin But yeah, I'm a shimano die-hard fan but like you said, Code RSC for the brakes (I got Hope because it was also cheaper but would have liked those otherwise).
  • 185 1
 “I see your plastic 12 speed SX and raise you THREE durable drivetrain systems, your move Sram”
  • 75 1
 Shimano owns this now. It always takes them a little time to get moving, but they really are like a steamroller.
  • 278 4
 Sram, the correct reaction to this (and 12 speed xtr/xt/slx too) is NOT 13 SPEED AND LOADS OF NEW STANDARDS! I cannot overemphasize this.
  • 20 5
 @kcy4130: dont know who down voted you, but F them!
  • 48 1
 SRAM's next move should be clear by now. A 10x50 11sp that is saves some cassette weight, is durable and shifts smoothly under load and kills it in the value department. As an Eagle user...I'd love to get to a very nice 11sp like this. I don't need all of this clicking-clicking as I skip gears I don't really need.
  • 22 0
 I kinda wanna see the microshift advent x reviewed more. I want to know how good it is.
  • 1 0
 @kcy4130: hahaha! Love that; Its probably their response though!
  • 11 1
 @pargolf8: I did by accident. I hate that if I accidentally bump the prop button I can't change my selection. It's easy to do by accident on mobile while scrolling.
  • 7 0
 @DaFreerider44: I have had it for 3weeks now. Shifts fine on par with slx. Just a little clunk when downshifting. Super easy to install and adjust. I am by no means a pro mechanic but even I set it up in 20 minutes. I got the pro shifter with the rubber paddles and lighter casette after shipping it was $160. I am very impressed so far the only issue I had was to dial the clutch back in tension a bit it was tight from factory and the clutch has a ratcheting sound that seems very durable. Best group I have had so far. Replaced an old 1x10 deore setup.
  • 4 0
 @Svinyard: MicroShift!
  • 1 0
 That’s exactly what I find myself doing too with 12speed @Svinyard:
  • 1 0
 I always do that too! Haha @cueTIP:
  • 3 1
 I wonder do the 10-11 speed cassette and chain use Hg+ ?

If so that's pretty devastating to sram. That would mean shimanos cheapest stuff shifts better under load then anything srams got.

Disclaimer: I'm on full xtr 12 speed.
  • 4 0
 @Svinyard: I would take 10 speed 10-50.
But not the bargain lines only. I want a state of the art 10 speed cassette 10-50.
  • 2 0
 @Svinyard: I just went to Shimano 11 speed with an 11-50 cassette. Works better than my GX Eagle did. Weighs a bit more, but I'm not exactly as svelte as I could be to be honest so I can't fault my cassette for my uphill performance.
  • 1 0
 @reverend27: exactly, me too
  • 5 0
 @Svinyard: have I been living in the future with my 11 spd 9x46 TRS plus cassette with 511% range all this time?
  • 3 2
 @Svinyard: sram and durable are two words that cant be used in the same sentence!
  • 2 0
 @kcy4130: Agreed. I bet the Sram response will be to release a GX version of AXS for ~$650 for the derailleur and controller. Once the R&D costs are covered by the first round of premium product (X01, XX1), there is nothing about a wireless receiver, servo motor and battery that prevents the price from coming way down.
  • 1 0
 I just replaced NX with Advent X and after a couple of rides it seems legit. Doesn’t feel high end or racy, but so far it’s working without issue.@DaFreerider44:
  • 2 0
 @shrockie: No, you can't shift underload with hyperglide Smile . That's a nice setup tho. Does it shift smoothly like a well tuned 12sp or does it clank throught bigger jumps a bit?
  • 1 0
 @reverend27: I don’t think so but it would be amazing it it did. It’s 12 spd’s killer feature imo.
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: I don't think that their cassette architecture can support cheap cassettes. At some point it has to be more expensive because the last (highest gears) cogs are unsupported by the driver. As a result their drivetrains are all hamstrung by expensive cassettes. Did you see NSMBs breakdown of a rider using AXS and the # of gears that he used (which is all tracked within their software)? Very interesting.
  • 1 0
 @KJP1230: That works if it's COTS components they are using, but being SRAM it's probably custom engineered stuff that isn't scalable like that.
  • 1 0
 According to this article no hg+ on the 10 and 11 speeds.
O well one can dream.

www.bikemag.com/gear/components/drivetrain/shimano-introduces-deore-12-speed-wide-range-10-11-speed
  • 1 0
 @DaFreerider44: bro, I've had it for 3 weeks, a handful of rides. It's awesome (for me). Was worried my derailleur hanger would need an extension but it's sweet as. Have it on a Ragley Piglet.
  • 1 0
 @EamonnLowe: I have mine on a ragley mmmbop. Good to see another ragley rider we are few and far between
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: Nope it'll be Shimano's to bring out the 11sp with the 12 speed spacing they had originally planned on with the wide flange spacing on the 11spd only hub
  • 1 0
 @Cspringsrider: Bro, such a cheap, wicked frame. Geo spot on. Prob won't go full sus for a while now. Chur
  • 121 3
 Bad day for SRAM
  • 18 38
flag jollyXroger (May 7, 2020 at 8:25) (Below Threshold)
 They'll blame it on COVID19, like the rest of the corporate world.
  • 9 11
 @jollyXroger: Probably will.
  • 4 1
 Not really since they seem to really own the OEM market. In spite of their crappy low-end groups from SRAM, I'm not sure that the bike makers will change their spec to Shimano.
  • 1 0
 Sram will likely only see the ramifications down the line. All large bike companies have already done their 2021 purchasing around the new year to mid-winter... so unless Shimano was talking with them well in advance (not typical Shimano practice to my understanding), Sram will be fine until 2022 purchasing starts... which, if your a Shimano fan, sort of sucks for the buyers.
  • 2 1
 @NWBasser: yes they will.

Sram simply have had the market as the go to 1x12-1x11 because they were the only option.
  • 1 0
 @reverend27: I hope so.
  • 1 0
 @reverend27: nice dreams, but shimano still doesn’t have the package for oem. Can’t beat SRAM for a full load on oem.
  • 79 4
 This looks like a shift in the right direction.
  • 47 1
 I absolutely adeore this groupset
  • 9 0
 @High-Delberg: never realized how pun-resistant shimano drivetrains are... they must have put extra effort in that..
  • 13 0
 @jfleming10: I don’t know, after some XTensive research I found a few puns, took some XTRa brain power though... I’ll see myself out
  • 3 0
 it looks like 12 shifts in either direction
  • 1 0
 Looks like shimano has really shifted into high gear
  • 63 1
 No more excuse for mounting Sram NX
  • 34 12
 Or GX
  • 10 1
 Except to get a package deal on suspension bits too. Believe me, I'd much rather buy a bike with Shimano and DVO, Manitou, Suntour, etc., but I think the manufacturers get some very low price deals from SRAM. It would be interesting to see the wholesale costs of the SRAM and Shimano groups.
  • 17 3
 @NWBasser: Don't forget about brake systems as well. As much as everyone dislikes SRAMs low-end drive trains, their G2 and Code brakes are terrific options (despite what you might read on pinkbike forums), and their suspension tech is definitively good-to-great-ish. As a package, its hard to say no to spec bundles for OEMs.
  • 7 18
flag Uchwmdr (May 7, 2020 at 13:00) (Below Threshold)
 @NWBasser: this is the sad thing. Garbage like sram and rockshox gets pushed into our throats by their nasty marketing
  • 19 0
 @Uchwmdr: Its a pretty big stretch to call Sram or Rock Shox "garbage". The current crop of X01, XX1 transmissions are really quite terrific, and AXS is getting universal praise by every reviewer and individual I know who has used it. And while I do not prefer to spec Rock Shox on my bikes, there is no question that their Lyrik and other products are at least "very good" - not garbage.
  • 3 1
 @KJP1230: I don't disagree about the brakes, but at the lower level of bikes that get SX/NX/Deore drivetrains, the RS forks are pretty crappy compared to most other brands. It's only when you start getting to their top levels that things get more competitive.
  • 4 0
 @KJP1230: This is all well and good, but this whole discussion is more geared towards what's happening at the lower price spectrum and I think most would agree that SRAM isn't doing well at that level. I don't know too many riders who would choose SX or NX over SLX.
  • 2 0
 @NWBasser: That's probably because SLX is more similar to x.o when it comes to long term ownership. You forget about the grams and the gimmicks pretty quick when it's just a tool.
  • 54 0
 Cartridge bearings in shimano hub? I'm listening.
  • 11 0
 Yes. Surprised there isn't more comments on that point.
  • 16 0
 @bman33: if in the future their hubs will be with sealed bearings it would be interesting, but to be honest I don't find any problems with actual xt hubs and classic bearings.
  • 3 2
 First year, I wouldn't trust them.
  • 5 0
 @Alexh1983: There's the problem that if the bearing races that are integrated in the hub wear out, the hub needs to be replaced, whereas with hubs that have cartridge bearings, all it takes is a replacement of the cartridge bearings.
  • 1 0
 @cedrico: Is there not some way to remove the races? I could've sworn there was. Pressed in or threaded or something.

I would also like to note that cartridge bearings typically are "sealed" and I couldn't see a reason to not have a seal on a cartridge bearing used for such an application - who knows what Shimano has installed (they've always been weird). Be nice to have some clarification on this.

As a side note I would definitely consider this for the hardtail when my slx shits the bed. Would probably buy a an HG compatible cassette though.
  • 12 0
 @cedrico: I have 20 year old Shimano hubs still rolling fine, it's never been a concern to have a bearing race wear out.
  • 2 2
 Can't agree more.
I have a XT dynamo hub (with beads, so) on my commuter. After 2 years of daily commuting, the left bearing is full of rust and there is nothing to do except change the hub.
I am a Shimano boy, but their bead bearings is such a PITA ...
  • 2 1
 @Alexh1983: no problems with the bearings but their free hub mechanism melts under pressure. Last time I bought a new bike I went through 3 in two months before I bought a new rear hub
  • 4 0
 @baulz: That's nice but you're one data point. I'm not saying every Shimano hub ends up getting pitted integrated bearing races and ends up having to be replaced. But when it does happen, it sucks.
  • 1 1
 @ssteve: You can heat the hub with a heat gun and knock the cups out with a rubber mallet by hitting the opposite side of the hub and letting the cup fall out. I used to use the rear axel to install the new cups which I’d take out of a cheap deore front hub but this was back in the QR days. You’l probably need a bearing press with the new hub standards.
  • 76 37
 Im not happy. I dont know why Im not. Im just on pinkbike and See that a big company did something thats maybe positive. So Im not happy. Before you ask, no I didnt read the article. I just went straight to the comments and saw 0 comments. So in summary Im a not happy pinkbiker.
  • 43 2
 you should change your username
  • 21 3
 @chadtague1: RageRider199. RoastRider199. Retar... nevermind. Ive contemplated it. I was a teenager when I made that. Ive seen some shit since then. Im not the same anymore...
  • 4 1
 @chillrider199: maybe create a new account with a proper name, and learn reading in the meanwhile Wink ?
  • 2 3
 @cxfahrer: You know, its too early for pinkbike. At least for commenting. So, please forgive this degenerative comments.
  • 4 1
 Something practical will get no traction here.
  • 42 1
 Good work Shimano!!!
  • 40 0
 11-51 11 speed cassette looks interesting.
  • 16 0
 Yeah seems like a good replacement for my 11sp XT setup when my cassette wears out. Wonder if the old 11sp XT derailleur will work with it.
  • 7 0
 @dglass: I'm currently running a Box (made by Sunrace) 11-50 cassette w/ an M9000 11spd rear mech and it works great. Worked great with M8000 as well. I'm curious to try, but I'm pretty confident it'll still have the capacity to go up to a 51.
  • 3 0
 @makudad: Cool! that's good news. Thanks for the info. I'm on sunrace 11-46 right now (34 in the front) and figure if there's a cheap way to boost range I might as well take it.
  • 8 0
 @dglass: Hopefully the gearing on this shimano doesn't jump from 37 to 51. lol
  • 1 0
 Looks interesting for sure but will most likely be heavy if the 12 speed cassette is almost 600g. Ouch.
  • 1 1
 @dglass: You might have to get a micro spline free hub to go with it.
  • 2 0
 @NWBasser: Nope, it says in the press release that it uses a standard HG freehub
  • 2 0
 Indeed. Might have to replace my PG-1130 11-42 with one of those when the time comes.
  • 1 0
 @VtVolk: Ah yeah, I see that now. Looks like a great option.
  • 3 0
 When is the Box One 9 speed comparison coming Pinkbike? That is a gear set I would love to try!
  • 17 1
 So now the question will be if SLX is still the best value in drivetrains or is Deore going to be to SLX what SLX is to XT: basically the same except for a few grams and a rubber thumb pad on the shifter.
  • 6 45
flag thenotoriousmic (May 7, 2020 at 9:55) (Below Threshold)
 How have you concluded that SLX is the best value drivetrain? SLX brakes are good for a year before they’re ready for the bin, the shifter is unusable and you only need to look at the mech wrong and it bends or falls apart, the cranks are decent but the chainring sucks? What we talking about? Cassettes?
  • 7 0
 @thenotoriousmic: dude I get that you don't like Shimano, but I've been running THREE SLX M7000 groups on 3 different bikes for anywhere from 1-3 years now. One derailleur replacement that I bashed into a big rock, but otherwise they've been shifting beautifully with almost zero attention paid for all that time. I only have the SLX brakes on one of them, an XC/light trail deal, but they've been rolling for three years now with one bleed and a few sets of pads. If I take them somewhere pretty gnarly, they will heat up and get that wandering bite point, but they are great in more reasonable terrain.
  • 1 0
 @mcaninch35: I second this. Only had to replace one SLX derailleur after I accidentally folded it in half with my spokes (they were a little bit too loose and grabbed on after a massive overshoot) and have had to straighten the hanger a couple of times but it's been flawless otherwise. I have some of the no name "series" MT520 brakes and they've been great as well. Don't know what this guy is on about.
  • 2 3
 @mcaninch35: I currently own XT and SLX brakes. The SLX’s are currently leaking fluid over the pads and they both suffer from the random bite point thing. You do realise this is a big issue right? This is a pretty serious fault. Not just one of those things.

@Johnsterfer I’ve never had an slx / zee mech last longer than a year without wearing out. They’ve all ether bent or developed loads of play around the rivets. They’re just made cheaply, can’t handle the strain from the chain when it rattles.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic : Every stock SLX piece that came on my Reign advanced was pure garbage. Replaced with NX and M8000 XT and the difference is night and day. I really don't know how so many people disagree with you, your experience is the same as mine.
  • 1 0
 Is the cage part of 7100 and 8100 derailleurs not the exact same part? The reason I ask is because I bent my 7100 last night on a stick and I need a replacement. I could get XT 8100 but it's £30 more expensive than SLX for 30g less.

I've previously run XT 8000 and SLX 7000 derailleurs and they were both the same build quality or close enough to make no difference.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: seriously pay the extra for XT. They’re built to a better standard with better quality materials that won’t bend if you look at it wrong and won’t develop a ton of play in a super short amount of time. 11 speed XT mechs are good for around two years before the clutch goes and the chain starts dropping hopefully this new clutch is even better. I’ve got a GX mech on my hardtail that looks like I’ve been doing grinds on it that’s still straight with no play despite bending two hangers after nearly 4 years.
  • 17 0
 More quality group sets to add to the budget end of the spectrum can only be a good thing, seems like a good deal to me.
  • 18 1
 Proper bearings in Shimano hubs?!! Never thought the day would come!
  • 1 0
 Exactly!
  • 5 0
 As long as they're not cheap bearings or a trash design like a lot of low-end, sealed-bearing hubs. My XT hubs might be a bit trickier to service, but as long as I keep an eye on them, they'll probably outlive my bike. I can't say the same for some of the lower-end Novatech or Formula stuff I've seen over the years.

Disclaimer: Novatech and Formula also make lots of better quality stuff that's just fine. Also, we're talking about Shimano so I'd expect these Deore Hubs be better than most hubs at the same price point.
  • 2 0
 @big-red: you can change the cups in shimano hubs if you ruin them with a £14 deore front hub of chain reaction.
  • 7 0
 @big-red: It's Shimano, they're definitely not the kind of company to throw in total shit bearings
  • 14 0
 YO 11-51 11 speed cassette?? I hope my M8000 RD can stretch that, but at least the 5100 is cheap if not. Good news for the 10speedbois too with that 11-46, will shift much nicer than the S*nraces
  • 4 1
 10x46, zee rear mech, saint shifter...FTW
  • 3 0
 @pargolf8: oh well, not sure about the Zee being able to shift that.. but would be cool, got some of those somewhere.. best shifting was for me with 10-speed!
  • 1 1
 @likehell: haha yeah probably not. I ran it with 11x42 with zero issues but i think ill go 11spd XT before i do that again
  • 1 0
 I don't thing Zee takes that a big range like that. I've got the trail version of Zee and it works perfectly with 11-36. At some point I tried to install the Goatlink thingy because I thought the additional chain wrap would reduce wear on my sprockets. And with a new chain it worked nicely. But with a little bit of chain stretch (still under 0.75% according to the Park Tool gauge) it is already too slack for the rear mech to keep it tight when on the 11t sprocket. I could remove two links of course, but that would make it impossible (and a bad idea to try) to get it on the 36t sprocket. With the stock link the cage has just enough range to cover the full gearing range within the acceptable chain wear range. But mind you this is still on a hardtail (with an oval chainring, but I don't think that matters much). If you've got a full suspension bike with a variable chaintay length (which goes for most of them, except for bb centered single pivots bikes like the DMR Bolt), the rear mech needs to compensate for that too. So yeah, I don't think you can fit a larger range cassette with a Zee rear mech. Unless of course you're replacing the cage with a bigger one, but that would be missing the whole point of running Zee. I like the short cage and I'm fine with the (by modern standards) small range.

I do realize it is no longer acceptable to speak of this and if you're willing to read on (at own risk) by all means fine a safe space, lock the door and stick on a fake moustache. A 2x drivetrain still allows you to get the full (large) range with a short rear mech. Just make sure that the chain is just long enough to get away when shifting big-big (and technically you should check it through the full range of travel but going there is really really theoretical). With a short rear mech cage you'll have to accept that if you shift small-small, the chain will be slack. But who would complain about that? I have run my setup like that for years and only moved on to a 1x drivetrain because I wanted an oval front ring. But I'll stick with Zee and 11-36 for as long as I can. I don't want those super long rear mechs people are running nowadays.
  • 1 0
 Yes I am stubbornly stuck on 10 speed drivetrain because I love having a shortcage RD. 32 by 11x36 gets old in the NC mtns.
  • 13 0
 Imagine if Shimano had its own value oriented suspension line to package up and sell. I like the SRAM stuff I ride but their cheaper line (as we all know) sucks. Their ability to push a "package" deal to manufacturers often removes the competition (shimano) from the equation thus protecting SRAMs crap low-end from being in a competitive position...so they don't need to do anything about it. If Shimano could compete there, SRAM would inevitably have to raise their game.
  • 3 1
 marzocchi?
  • 1 0
 @faul: is owned by Fox now
  • 3 0
 @haroprease: Yes. That's why I mentioned them. XTR Di2 with cashima grp 2 R2D2 bling, deore with foxocchi.
  • 9 0
 @mikekazimer you say in the video that it's an "all steel cassette", when to me it looks like it has an aluminum spider? Each gear my be steel vs. the hybrid versions used on XTR/XT/SLX, but this is still a much better setup than some of the previous lower end Shimano cassettes that used individual steel gears from the teeth to the point where they engage the freehub body with plastic spacers or pinned construction keeping everything seperate. Only the 10spd 4100 level cassette looks to be constructed that way.
  • 5 0
 You are correct; CS-M6100 & 5100 spiders are aluminum, cogs are steel. CS-M4100 has steel spider and cogs.
  • 1 0
 @jyoucha: Thank for confirming Jacob. Wink - Alex
  • 1 0
 @bicycle019: Oh, hahaha, hey Alex! Sure thing!
  • 9 0
 Shimano has literally addressed every gap in the current drive-train game. A foresee a huge decrease in Sunrace cassette sales very soon. The aftermarket brands with expander cogs etc... will feel this for sure. I am struggling to see the value proposition of SLX over Deore though, maybe a little cassette weight, but the groupsets are blending together more than ever.
  • 10 0
 Even if it does kill their market, I'm now a Sunrace fanboy. They offered things nobody else did and I was able to retrofit many of my bikes to climb well using only 1 front chainring. I ditched so many front derailleurs, chainrings, and shifters years before shimano or SRAM would have enabled me to. I'm still rocking some 9 speeds from the mid 2000s that are much simpler and lighter now due to Sunrace. Many thanks Sunrace! You're a gentleman and a scholar.
  • 1 0
 Now that I think about it...Sunrace need to figure out a way to fit a 10 tooth cog on a standard freehub body. I'd replace my current Sunrace cassettes if they could make that happen.
  • 4 2
 You can still pick up an 11spd 10-50T cassette for half the price of SLX online and you don't need to swap to microspline. Must admit, I'd like to cherry pick from the shimano range for a future drivetrain. SLX cassette, XT shifter, deore rear mech and XTR chain might be the most durable/ cost effective/ balanced with performance?
  • 1 0
 @Maestroman87
I've had a 45T expander cog on a 11-40 XTR cassette for a few years and really like the jumps on the high/big end. For another bike I just ordered a 47T OneUp expander cog to go on an XT 42T cassette. If I'd known this new 11spd 11-51 XT cassette were available soon I'd have definitely gone with it instead.
  • 11 2
 11-speed 10-48t for Microspline would've been nice.
- Sprockets: 10-12-14-16-19-22-25-30-35-41-48t
- Jumps: 20%-16,7%-14,3%-18,8%-15,8%-18,2%-15,3%-16,7%-17,1%-17,1%.

Oh well, maybe microshift will do it.
  • 1 0
 Was typo in there; 25 should've been 26 (ratio's correct).

Or maybe built two version: 10-48t and 10-50t (both still have very usable jumps between ratio's).

- Sprockets: 10-12-14-16-19-22-26-30-35-41-48t
- Jumps: 20%-16,7%-14,3%-18,8%-15,8%-18,2%-15,3%-16,7%-17,1%-17,1%.

- Sprockets: 10-12-14-16-19-22-26-30-35-42-50t
- Jumps: 20%-16,7%-14,3%-18,8%-15,8%-18,2%-15,3%-16,7%-20,0%-19,0%.

Microspline potentially is the gateway to wide ranged, fairly light, reliable and affordable spider based 11-speed cassettes.
  • 9 1
 between this and Microshift (and maybe Box), why would anyone ever buy SX or NX? I get why they come OEM, but man they are heavy and weak.
  • 7 0
 Deore cassette is 593g. NX cassette is 610g. Both are boat anchors, but at least they are 12 speed and compatible with upgrades from upper tier groups or aftermarket manufacturers in the future.
  • 7 0
 Time to wait out for new bikes to be specced with these. The overpriced bikes with sx rubbish can collect dust on the showfloor this year.
  • 7 0
 Great move by Shinamo! interesting how the the OM market is going to be the next couple of years. This is a win for the all riders
  • 8 0
 10speed 11-46 cassette. MT420 four-pot calipers. They can take my money like, now.
  • 2 0
 Do we know if it has hyperglide and will shift similarly to the 12sp and underload? I think a 10sp 10-46 would ideal if it could shift as smoothly as the 12sp and avoid the weight too. I'd pay extra for that! 12sp is just too many clicks
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: thats what I'm trying to find out also.
If the cheapest stuff has the hg+ shifting thats a game changer.

I'm on xtr 12 and being able to shift under load is amazing. I am able to carry more speed with less effort.

I can't see any circumstance where it wouldn't mean seconds in a race setting.
All things being equal if the other guy has to let up to shift in a sprint advantage goes to shimano rider.
  • 5 1
 Was hoping for 10-46 11 speed, so I could change only the driver to microspline (DT driver has dents after 1 year of moderate use) without having to change the meh and shifter.
  • 6 0
 Well you're lucky because E13 and SRAM 11 speed cassettes work fantastic with Shimano 11 speed shifters and rear deralleurs. So you can chuck an XD driver on there and go 9-42/46 or 10-42 with no sacrifice in shift performance.
  • 3 0
 Or use a Sunrace 10-46t 11s Cassette on that XD-driver: www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/csmx9x
  • 6 1
 @j-t-g: What 1 really want is a 10-45 11 spd cassette!
  • 4 0
 @j-t-g: you won’t get hyperglide+ though. And believe me, you want hyperglide. It leads to much smoother shifts under power
  • 3 7
flag lkubica (May 7, 2020 at 9:04) (Below Threshold)
 @j-t-g: XD driver is total crap. You are lucky if you manage to remove cassette. Sorry, no.
  • 3 0
 @lkubica: I understand some like Shimano, some like Sram. I have had and do have both. That said, installed/removed probably 50 or more cassettes with an XD driver. Zero issues, ever. Not sure what your issues have been, but never heard of any removing the cassette
  • 2 0
 @sdurant12: Does anyone know if we get hyperglide in the 10/11sp Shimano stuff here?? I highly doubt it considering its a value drivetrain for them. I'm really hoping we do tho...I want a hyperdrive, uber smooth 10-46 drive train 10 or 11sp from shimano.
  • 1 0
 @j-t-g: lol you said no change in shift performance.

Have you ridden a well adjusted bike with HG+ ?
  • 1 0
 @sdurant12: exactly. All that sunrace and other bs is now on a lower level.

HG+ is the real thing.
  • 2 0
 @reverend27: he's comparing two 11 speed cassettes, neither of which have hg+

@j-t-g: I've got an 11speed e13 9-46 with xt derailleur and xtr shifter on one bike, and 11 speed Box (made by sunrace) 11-46 with xt on another. I've also used a xx1 10-42 cassette on the former bike. All are great setups.
  • 2 0
 @lkubica: yep my xx1 11-42 is fused on my very expensive Chris King driver.

I've now got dt240s with micro spline and would like to sell my Kings.

But I cant until I can get that f*cking cassette off.
  • 2 0
 @bman33: well just because you haven't a problem doesn't mean a quick google won't show the opposite.

Took it to the shop mechanic said known issue.
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: ya my xtr di2 with xx1 10-42 was fine too.

The new shimano is on another level.

Doesn't mean your stuff is trash. The shimano is just...you don't have to let up when you shift. They didnt add another speed or make more range or a nasa light cassette.

They fundamentally changed how and when I shift. Definition of game changing.
  • 1 0
 @reverend27: yeah it sounds really nice. If I were racing, I'd probably care more, but easing up a bit to shift smooth is so engrained into my muscle memory that I'm not worried about it. By the time I wear out all my 11 speed stuff, maybe xtr 13 will be out and I'll buy into the 12 speed on discount.

Did you grease your XD driver when you installed the cassette? Because you should have. You could try some penetrating lube, but you'll probably want to rebuild the hub after.
  • 2 0
 @reverend27: I was a pro mechanic for 10 + years. My good friend still manages a high end shop in Golden. Not saying others don't have problems. However, never have I nor anyone I have known had an issue removing a cassette from and XD driver unless they were using shit tools.
  • 2 0
 Wrap a chain whip around your cassette and push backwards on your cogs with a screwdriver / tire lever / etc. They'll pop out of those grooves. Once the cassette is off, file the burrs off the freehub body. It's quick and easy. Good as new.
  • 1 0
 @rickybobby18: can you draw me a picture?
This wont mess up my driver will it?
  • 9 1
 1000x better than SX.
  • 3 0
 I'm curious if this was they're original pricing model, or if they changed prices in response to Microshift's Advent X? Advent X is $167 for shifter, cassette, and derailleur, but only with 10 speed, vs $180 for the same package from Shimano in 12 speed flavor.
  • 4 0
 12 speed is not necessarily better in my book, just a different compromise. Deore does have quite a bit more range, 10-51t vs. 11-48t, but the cassette is also a lot heavier 593gr vs. the Microshift 424gr. Set up and stability should generally also be easier with 10 speed compared to 12.
  • 1 0
 @WiscoRida You also need a micro spline free hub body to do that upgrade.
  • 3 0
 @rowdypatty:

That is true. One of the really appealing things about Microshifts wide range 10 speed is that its still on the HG freehub.

But the same is now true for the 11 speed deore 11-51. So thats a comparison I'd like to see.

I'm a big fan of these cheap drivetrains.
  • 1 0
 @CS645: Completely agree. I actually installed the Microshift system on my bike a couple weeks ago. I've only had one ride on it, and it's light-years better than the old 3x9 Deore my bike had. And I never felt like I was missing any gears.
  • 1 0
 @ocnlogan: Cheap drivetrains are great! Advent X allowed me to finally upgrade from 3x9.

I'm really curious how the 11-51 Deore compares to the 11-48 Microshift. On one hand, the Shimano has the slightly bigger range, a cheaper derailleur, and likely better part availability, but on the other hand the Microshift has a much lighter and cheaper cassette. (Assuming pricing and weights are only slightly lower for the 1x11 than the 1x12)
  • 3 0
 Go shimano! Been waiting for this I am always happy to use a budget drivetrain. All the options are good. And prices are better I think sram should watch their backs. I think with all the different options this should make alot of people happy. Especially since microshift advent x is having stock issues
  • 2 0
 Was hoping for a bigger price drop on the brakes. SLX brakes went from street price of $75 to $130 real quick. Even for 2 piston. And M6000 recently disappeared from the lower price bracket. Looks like rising the price just to make them appear more "high end."
  • 2 0
 You still can buy 5020´s, or did they disappear in US too? They are good enough, ceramic pistons and all.
  • 1 0
 @cxfahrer: I don't think they can sell those in the US. I had to google them and found a website selling them that stated they can't ship to the US. I can build those by ordering the individual caliper and lever and hose from a shop, but that way still puts them at ~$120ish
  • 9 6
 How I wish Shimano 12 speed existed before I bought by GX Eagle. Not that I have had any issues but Shimano is much smoother, quieter and reliable. AND cheaper on top of all of that. GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER SRAM
  • 13 2
 Should have just bought shimano 11 speed. It was also cheaper and better than gx eagle.
  • 7 0
 @thegoodflow: Agreed but I was convinced by the 12 speed fad.
  • 1 0
 @stumphumper92: well it sounds like you learned your lesson
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: Does what I need it to do. I havent had an issue yet but Shimano shifted smoother for me. Next bike will be shimano for sure.
  • 3 4
 So you’re complaining that your drivetrain that you haven’t had problems with, sucks? Huh, that’s interesting.
  • 3 1
 @sunringlerider: I just said exactly why I disliked it?
  • 3 3
 @stumphumper92: You have had no issues with your GX but Shimano is much more reliable? You can have my SLX from the trashcan that blew donkey balls. Replaced it with NX and am much happier. Just pay me for shipping.
  • 4 2
 @thegoodflow: what is it with these deluded shimano fan boys just making things up? I’ve got a shimano 11 speed XT cassette on my hardtail and no way does shift as well as my X01 and why would it? It’s a cheap pressed sheet metal cassette that comes held together with a zip tie and gouges itself into my freehub throwing it out of alignment compared to my X01 cassette that’s been milled to perfection by Germans but you won’t believe me so you can just see for yourself how much better It works.


youtu.be/kem5Rk863WA
  • 3 1
 @thenotoriousmic: Who's making what up exactly? I guess the new pinkbike trend is to call anyone who prefers something that you don't prefer a fanboi. Cool video. Yeah, the shimano looked really clunky. I don't really know what to make of that, but I'd guess it's mostly due to the cassette more than anything, or that guy was playing out his own bias by shifting the shimano like a doofus, but I doubt that. I do know that I've got two shimano xt/xtr 1x11 setups, with e13 9-46, xx1 10-42, and box 11-46 cassettes. They work great. So, I just choose the setups that work best for me, i don't have any allegiance to any particular companies. Happy to mix and match stuff for the best results. It was a pretty easy decision to go with shim 1x11 stiff over eagle, for me. Generally I think shimano is more conservative and engineering driven, and SRAM is more marketing driven. Obviously xo1 shifts well. I think that the shimano stuff is more durable, the setup is less finkicky, the shifter ergonomics are way better, the clutch is adjustable to compensate for wear, it's more flexible to use with different size cassettes, and it's cheaper. For me it was an easy choice. Especially considering I was able to buy those setups for around the cost of gx eagle. Its a no brainer for me. Back in the 3x9 days I was a huge fan of xo. It's really not about being a fanboy for me. Is it for you? Enjoy your xo
  • 2 0
 @stumphumper92:
No what you said was. I’ve had no problems with my drivetrain but I read PB comment section and Sram has to suck and Shimano is way more reliable than something that you stated you had no reliability issues with? But ya you stated it turbo clear.
  • 2 1
 @sunringlerider: why are you getting so defensive. I agree that people on pinkbike tend to act like a mob about stuff and that gets really annoying. I think the mobs mostly just really underwhelmed with seeing nx or sx, which is pretty junky stuff to be fair, being sold on $4000+ bikes. No doubt that this Deore is going to be a better alternative to sx or nx, going by their track record. GX is pretty meh, and once you get up to xo/xx you could say it's preference. I definitely prefer shimano. I do think that eagle is more of a group that works well when it's new and shiny and perfect in the workstand, and shimano is better for mechanics/tinkerers, people who like their stuff to last and might swap stuff around between builds, ride it hard and put away wet. It's not as sensitive to chain length, not as sensitive to being dirty, just generally more durable stuff. But that's just my opinion.
  • 3 0
 @thegoodflow:
Not trying to get overly defensive just sorta defensive. I whole heartily agree that Shimano beats sram in some areas but Sram has some high points too. What just blows my little mind is when people spew mindless trash about something being not reliable after they state that it is? And my man haters gunna hate.
To that I also strongly dislike the whole industry going to putting SX/NX or I know this is terrible but Deore on 4K bikes. Dumb. Dumb beyond belief. I’m really not sure whole you blame for that, Sram or Shimano for making it or Bike co’s for spec’ing it. Either way it has flooded the market with garbage drivetrains.
Oh I know Shimano doesn’t make a bad drive train. Sorry for saying low end Shimano isn’t the best thing ever.
  • 2 0
 @sunringlerider: I don't think anyone was saying that Deore was the best thing ever. But between Deore and sx or nx, which would you choose?
  • 2 0
 @sunringlerider: haha, okay you make a good point. And to that point if I bought a new complete bike with nx/sx/gx at this point I'd just sell the drivetrain as takeoffs and throw my xtr/xt 1x11 on there. To each their own. Sounds like we'll both enjoy the ride. Cheers!
  • 1 1
 @thegoodflow: sram works better, it’s made to a way higher standard, it lasts longer and needs less maintenance. The shifters feel nicer the brakes are in a different league to shimano but shimano is cheap which is why I buy it from my kids bike my other bikes etc at the end of the day you get what you pay for.
  • 1 1
 @thegoodflow: I have risen nx eagle on my current reign, and rental Patrol and Ripmo, and all 3 have shifted better then every bike I have previously owned, all off which were either xtr or xt to include a nomad c, heckler, and pitch. My experiences have matched every review I have ever read of an NX equipped bike, that they shifted great. I can't speak to longevity because I haven't had it long but my last slx setup was never reliable, so this is already better. Maybe you had a bad experience or something but that hasn't been my experience.
  • 2 0
 @DirtyRider13: ok, cool. Don't think I plan on switching anytime soon, but I'm glad you're happy with your nx.

Just out of curiosity, which nx review have you read that says nx outperforms xt and xtr? I don't think I've seen that one yet.
  • 2 0
 @thegoodflow:
Oh I hear ya. Was my problem when getting a different enduro bike. 3-4K bikes have pretty much worthless drivetrain and wheels. At that point you have a 2500 frame or more considering you could get $100 or so out of a new take off drivetrain.
  • 3 0
 @sunringlerider: yeah, aside from a used custom Krampus build that I picked up last year from the PB classifieds for a good deal, I hadn't bought a complete bike since 2004 when I had a pro-deal through a shop. If you hang on to durable parts, seek out deals, do your own wrenching/wheel-building etc., I just don't think the complete bikes are a good value at all for what you get these days.
  • 3 0
 @thegoodflow:
Agree 100%. Last new bike I bought was a gravel bike that I replaced 100% of the parts. But was due to a deal also. Frames and own wrenching is the way to do it.
I think we have solved the world’s problems. LoLz
  • 2 2
 @thegoodflow: come off it. Next time your in a bike shop go compare the two. Grab the cheap plastic thumb paddles on a XTR shifter and give them a wobble and feel the play and then go do the same with an X01 shifter and feel the difference in quality. Same with the lever pull. Sram is so much lighter, shimanos feel like there’s dirt in the cables from the drag from the shifter and clutch. Do the same with a mech. Grab it by the jockey wheel and give it a wiggle and feel how much more play a shimano mech has over its equivalent sram component. Jump on bike with shimano brakes and rock it forward and backwards and listen to the pads rock forward and backwards in the calliper. Go watch that video I posted and watch how much faster and smoother it changes gears. Honestly I could go on all day.
  • 2 2
 @thenotoriousmic: okay. Glad you like eagle. Not sure why you're even mentioning the brakes, I don't ride the shimano brakes either. I thought we were just talking drivetrains. Are you all SRAM all the time? Sounds kinda fanboyish.

Interesting that you point out the light leverpull on the SRAM. Back in the day, it was the opposite. Shimano was known for having a really light action, and SRAM had a much more direct feel. Everyone had their preference back then too. The light action feels really slick on the showroom floor that you mentioned. On the trail I prefer the more direct feel. Maybe that's part of the reason I preferred the xo drivetrain back then. But that 1st Gen xo derailleur was a work of art. All that silver ano machined aluminum, really beautiful piece.

Maybe we actually agree. XO eagle is for people that walk into bike shops and drop $7k on a new complete bike, and 1x11xt/xtr is for people that.... don't do that? I'm ok with that.
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: I haven't found a comparison from NX to XT in a publication, but Pinkbike's own review from 2018 by @danielsapp agrees with my own experience, where he states:
"I have been riding the NX Eagle group for almost two months at this point. A lot of that time has been in rain and mud, optimal conditions for accelerating wear on a drivetrain, and I have zero complaints with the NX group. Comparing it to the GX group that I had been running on the same bike for a few months prior, the shifting and overall performance are nearly impossible to tell apart."

A pinkbike reviewer likely rides as much mtb in 2 months as I do in 2 years to be honest, especially since moving out east (I live in DC now), the only quality riding is 1.5 hours away in Frederick Md. I think we can just agree to disagree here and you can be happy with your shimano and I can be happy with my NX, until either of us aren't.
  • 2 0
 @DirtyRider13: yeah, good riding at Frederick watershed
  • 2 0
 Very stoked about this. If my understanding of cassette cog spacing is correct, the M4100 wide range 10spd cassette should be able to drop into any existing 11spd shifter/derailleur combo you have and fix a lot of the goofy chainline issues we see with 11/12spd forcing a cog inboard of the freehub. I'm going to try this as soon as I can get my hands on one of these cassettes!
  • 2 0
 The only failing with this I can see is the microspline freehub, manufacturers can make big savings by using basic hubs that most people who buy entry level.bikes don't look twice at, having this freehub reduces their ability to spec low cost hubs on bikes meaning less money is availible to throw at 12 speed drivetrains etc.... it's simple economics, any money spent on a bike has to get passed on to the customer somewhere.....
  • 1 0
 Microspline will be more wildly available as time goes on, it is not technically harder to make than the old shimano freehub, so it should get cheaper as well
  • 6 5
 "There are also three different chain line options available, 52mm, 55mm and 56.5mm with accompanying 172mm, 178mm and 181mm Q-factors to provide options for non-Boost (142mm), Boost (148mm) and Super Boost (157mm) rear hub spacing."

I really hope that those chainlines are a typo. That makes no sense.
  • 1 0
 Yeah seems crazy to push the chainline out while at the same time moving the cassette inboard with an additional cog. How crazy is that that they offer an XTR crank with a 56.5 CL and a 171 QF. Talk about heel rub!
  • 1 0
 @jasonmiles: yeah, it's really weird. Even the standard 52-53mm boost chainline is wider than ideal. I've gotten in the habit of moving my chainline inboard on most bikes. I'm using a 55mm chainline on a 157 bike. 55mm chainline on a boost bike would be so awful.
  • 3 1
 Any of the downvoters care to explain what it is that you don't understand about chainline?
  • 5 0
 Wow. That's one heck of a budget drivetrain. Nicely done, Shimano.
  • 4 3
 mike kazimer mentioned in one of the first podcasts, the idea to sacrifice 1 or 2 gears in order to get better brakes, i honestly like the idea, have a 1x10 or 1x9 even, get a better brake, or a better fork. Most people that apparently want a 1x12 are most likely to walk a good climb. ok rant over
  • 1 0
 A few of my older bikes are on wide range Sunrace 9 speed setups and I'm happy with them. They would be even better with a 10 tooth cog, but the older hubs wouldn't fit that...unless Sunrace made it happen.
  • 5 4
 Those of use who live in areas with large/long climbs such as here in Colorado where I am, 12-speed range is pretty much the standard, not the exception. Most folks here using that range could out climb most from 'flatter' parts of the world. Not wanting to talk shit, but it has nothing to do with ability or skill set...at least out here.
  • 2 0
 @bman33: didnt think about it that way, but you are right, for someone climbing for more than half a day, that 12th gear is great help in the last miles i guess, specially when climbing big mountains, I guess it would be a matter of geography, perhaps?
  • 2 0
 @bman33: same deal in Idaho. My average ride has me in the granny gear a good portion of the day.
  • 1 0
 It makes sense with the cassette range, but interesting they chose to stick with micro spline for even the Deore tier. Will be tougher for riders with cheaper setups to find wheelsets/hubs that work until it's adopted more widely as an option.
  • 2 0
 AHH at last Shimano has a full range of affordable drivetrains to market that meet latest market requrements, guess that means SRAM are due to release 1x13 with 550% range and make us question how we ever coped before???
  • 1 0
 Really tempting at the this price! Question is should I upgrade my 14 trek slash to a 1x12 or time to just get a new bike all together? I upgraded the rear shock, wheels, tires, bars and the stem. Do i upgrade to a better 1x12 or just go budget and just get the gear range?
  • 1 0
 I love that there are more budget conscious options out there, and with 4 pistons now! Thank you Shimano, SRAM, Sunrace, Microtech, and anyone else in the budget game. Normal people appreciate reasonable prices, performance, and reliability.
  • 2 0
 Can Shimano just decide how they want to attach chainrings to cranks and stick with it? Jeezus. On a separate note, I would way rather run GX or XO than SLX or XT, but this looks WAY better than SX and NX.
  • 1 0
 Since we're all making bold predictions about the OE market, look at Centaur. Product managers don't necessarily want the best thing; they want something safe, and for the next few years at least, SRAM *X drivetrains are still safe.
  • 1 0
 Microshift, will you please make a thumbie/ bar end shifter for Shimano 12? This stuff is perfect for gravel, haulers and tourers.
Shimano, will you please make a GRX brake lever without a shifter. We will hang this stuff on everything that rolls.
  • 1 0
 Those Deore 4-pot brakes look almost identical to the MT520 caliper / MT501 lever brakeset I've been running happily for the last year or so (save for the added support post on the lever) - no wandering bite point on these things, good power/modulation balance with organic pads. Great stuff Shimano, this Deore 12spd gruppo looks amazing!
  • 1 0
 seeing a ton of SRAM hate in these comments. mostly directed towards sx, nx and gx. while I agree, sx is literal garbage, is a pain to set up and probably won't last more than a few months because of the plastic construction, nx and gx are pretty decent. the nx cassette is a good piece of kit that lets people convert to 1x12 without swapping free hub bodies, and the drivetrains is pretty good in my experience (I've ridden quite a few six, and quite a few nx and honestly put them on a par) its not too bad to set up, its pretty well priced and is durable. gx is great stuff, its decently priced, not ridiculously heavy and in my experience lasts. the s kit Santa Cruz at the moment is a solid build and imo is the most solid friendly priced setup around. xo and xx1 are just great, but I'm not seeing anyone here talking about it.
  • 1 0
 Shimano brakes are great if for even just the fact that if you're drinking beer and bleeding your brakes and go for a swig of beer, but absentmindedly grab the bleed jar, the worst that happens is you get the runs instead of poisoning yourself with DOT brake fluid....
  • 2 2
 I wished they would've offered a HG compatible 12 speed option. Hyperglide plus is amazing but you can only run it on Microspline. I assume they did this to help get more microspline wheels on new bikes so maybe in another year they will have a Hyperglide plus HG cassette.
  • 4 0
 I was kind of hoping for it to be the other way around - that there would be Microspline options for the 10 and 11 speed drivetrains. That really gets more Microspline wheels out there, and has the added benefit of making upgrades easier for people buying lower-end bikes.
  • 9 9
 Hi Shimano- do your new brakes address the absurd issue of wandering bite point? If not I will literally never purchase another Shimano brake. Until this is fixed I'm moving on to Curas or Maguras or TRP or almost anybody else.

I know my boycotting will send shivers up your spine, but just imagine if .....everybody.... that buys aftermarket brakes stopped buying your terror-machines until this issue is fixed.

Actually, you probably still wouldn't care. Just thought you should know- one less customer that would otherwise be super excited by this news.
  • 7 3
 Watch the latest video with Marshy and Greg Minaar. The Shimano 'wandering point' issue is not a dramatic as everyone talks about if you know how to address.
  • 3 0
 @bman33: Yeah, I've seen it, and done that. It's a quick temporary fix- the issue has always returned within a ride. Like they say in the video, it's an issue that gets fixed by swapping brake pads and burping- well guess what: for a WC DH rider that's potentially every single run. For me (slow trail rider, that's a set or two of pads every season.)

I've tried thinner oil (putolino,) I've done the burping + free-stroke, I've done full bleeds. It has always returned.

And you're right- it's not sooooooo dramatic that every ride is a potential crash fest because my brakes don't work- it's just a consistent obnoxious known issue that's frustrating enough that I'm going with alternatives until it's fixed. And, knowing how to temporarily address a problem doesn't mean the problem should just be lived with.

Love everything else Shimano, but it's easy enough to use other brakes that don't have this issue.
  • 2 1
 @VTTyeahyouknowme: You have to bleed your brakes properly, if the bike points shifts over time, it's because of air trapped in the brake. You should pay attention to every part of the brake to see if there is air somewhere.
If so many people love these brakes, it's because they work amazing, you just need to know how to bleed them
  • 6 2
 Preach man. One of those issues that drives me nuts. Don't let the fanboys gaslight you.

Definitely not a bleed issue, unless every professional reviewer that brings it up somehow can't bleed Shimano. Weird that never happens with SRAM. Thought Shimano was supposed to be super easy to bleed. Always a selling point with the fan club. Also behaves nothing like an issue with trapped air in the line.

Fix your mediocre brakes, Shimano. Fix your drivetrains, SRAM (shadow for all, better shifting/durability particularly for GX and below...) See how easy that was?
  • 1 1
 @TheRamma: Yeah, my feeling is this: if it takes sacrificing a virgin under a blood moon to get this mythic "proper bleed" that fixes this issue for good, well, I guess I don't know any virgins.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not taking off my existing Shimano brakes and throwing them in the river. I'm simply saying enough is enough and they won't be getting my money for their brakes until this is fixed.
  • 2 0
 @VTTyeahyouknowme: If virgins were the limiting factor in getting a proper bleed, no MTB journo would ever complain about Shimano brakes again...
  • 1 0
 @VTTyeahyouknowme: use mt501 levers for four piston brakes and 515 for the two pistons. I have had good success with it. You do lose the freestroke adjustment and toolless reach adjustment. But they work great and no wandering bite point no matter how hot they get.
  • 1 1
 @Cspringsrider: IDK, every time I think a brake from Shimano doesn't suffer from this, someone chimes in to tell me they do. The fact that you're worried about heat makes me think you're talking about air/water in the line. Wandering bite points tends to be worse at lower temps, not higher temps. Part of how you know if isn't just a shitty bleed.
  • 1 0
 @TheRamma: I've experienced wandering bite point with 4-piston xt in sub freezing temps, so there's another anecdote for your theory about it only affecting overheated brakes with bad bleads. It doesn't make them unusable, you get used to quickly pumping the brakes a couple times as you're coming into sections where you know you're going to need them, but it's not confidence inspiring. It's definitely a very common problem even if not every brake suffers from it for whatever reason.
  • 1 2
 @TheRamma: by lots of heat I am #290 like to descend fast and by default hard on my brakes I have felt the fluid bubbling in the lever and brake rotors hot enough to warp and melt resin pads. I am just one guy tho who is out of the realm of what bike riders should weigh and it shows its hard for me to find parts that will hold up to me. I also live in colorado and frequent crested butter summit county and salida. All have prolonged downhills that will test any brake to the point of failure again due to my weight
  • 2 0
 @Cspringsrider: I don't doubt that you have heat management problems, I certainly have,also live in CO, but the better part for biking Smile . Sure the Palisade Plunge is going to test even my Code RSC's.

what I'm saying is wandering bite point is not a high heat phenomenon. It actually is likely due to the higher viscosity of Shimano oil at lower temperatures causing the pistons to pack up and bite much earlier. I can only guess, because Shimano refuses to admit there is a problem, much less fix it. Weird they retain so many people's love with that kind of behavior.
  • 1 0
 @TheRamma: I just roasted my fancy newer xt brake calipers the other day. Put on a old m395 calipers and they work just fine maybe better. I like the "on and off" feel of Shimano brakes never liked the "modulation" but I am the exception. Also after dealing with car brakes and others that use dot fluid I don't want that stuff anywhere near my bike. I tried lighter weight oil but it just didnt suit my tastes. I also don't get why people are such fanbois of products with issues. Like fiat cars or mini cars people know they are crap and expensive to fix but love them. There are always masochistic people I guess. I dont think I have ever spent more than $60 for a brake I just get the cheap ones put jagwire metal pads in them and 203 rotors. And your side has better biking but I like being close to the major ski resorts for the winter. And all my fam is here to.
  • 2 0
 @Cspringsrider: Thanks for the info on the different levers making a difference, interesting to hear. To be honest there's zero chance I'm going to try this experiment, I won't spend another cent on Shimano brakes until some new system is implemented, but glad to hear you found a way to make them work.

I think people are rabid fans because they never experienced this- and that's just one of the frustrating things: it's not consistent for EVERY SINGLE SHIMANO BRAKE so some people get good ones and go 'what's the problem? learn to bleed ur breaks?!?' because their brakes just work.

I truly believe Shimano cannot acknowledge this because it's a critical piece of life-safety on a bike and any admittance of error would leave them open to lawsuits for negligence - they just quietly warranty any brakes people complain about and likely cross their fingers the new brakes work better.

230 lbs? Dude, you're a prime candidate for those new 223 mm 2.3mm thick rotors, I pity your bike- bet it's like trying to slow down a freight train.
  • 1 0
 @VTTyeahyouknowme: 290 but really good pads and 203mm rotors does the trick. I agree they need to come up with a new system.
  • 1 0
 @Cspringsrider: Sounds like we're on the same page. If you've found something that makes Shimano brakes work well, good for you. If I were roasting brakes though, I'd rethink my dislike of DOT fluid. Many people (me included) use it for years without any issues, and it is much more temp stable than mineral oil.
  • 1 3
 @Cspringsrider: you need to go on a diet then lard arse
  • 2 1
 @CrispyNuggs: I think I speak for a lot of people when I say, eat shit and f*ck off, loser. Why do you care so much about his weight? From what I hear, he's still plenty gentle with your mom. Not like a lot of the other guys round the trailer park.
  • 1 1
 Lol good one it’s “mum” not “mom” though @TheRamma:
  • 2 0
 @CrispyNuggs: for the record I am 6ft 7in tall and I am a non pro body builder. My weight is not fat. Muscle weighs more than fat. And shouldnt you be making a dentist appointments and doing what you do best with your "buds" seems like there might be a closet involved. And feck off you bloody wanker!
  • 1 0
 @CrispyNuggs: lolz I love the interweb sarcasm is awesome
  • 4 0
 Ok, next is new saint right?
  • 4 1
 I did not need to be rescued from Sram I don't use ANY of their shit. SLX or XT for life.
  • 3 0
 Great news! Finally a cheap, functional and durable alternative to the mess that is SX Eagle...
  • 2 2
 I now have 600 options for 12-speed Shimano on my mountain bike and 0 options on my road bike. No love for roadies :-(

That issue aside, I hope Shimano's next focus is to create some 12 speed cassettes that don't weigh as much as my bike :-P
  • 1 1
 Light, Strong, cheap....Pick two. XTR is Eagle XO1 weight range. Looking for light and cheap (AKA Deore or SLX level) is going to be a long search.
  • 2 2
 welcome to PinkBike not LycraGate
  • 1 0
 The current generation of Dura-Ace, Ultegra and 105 has been around for about four years. So we're about due for new road stuff, and I bought the top three groups will be 12s with Hyperglide+. I'd put it at next spring at the very latest.
  • 3 0
 Really hope we start seeing more of this and Zocchi on lower builds. Zocchi needs a Reba competitor.
  • 4 0
 Cartridge bearings in Shimano hubs is big news!
  • 3 0
 Took them a while longer than anyone wanted, but competition is great for the consumer!
  • 3 0
 When my SRAM shits the bed I will definitely be trying the 1x12 group. Well done Shimano!!
  • 2 0
 The 12 spd full group with 4 piston brakes will be money for a winter hardtail build. Affordable, dependable and even look good.
  • 1 1
 "Shimano definitely know a thing or two about creating well engineered aluminium crank sets" Go have a look at the self destroying Dura Ace and Ultegra cranks...

On the positive side, good to see that they have now ditched the silly DM rear derailleur hanger on everything from Deore Up (but the 10s M4100) and have just make derailleurs which are exact copies of Sram X-Horizon concept bar the "rollamagik" and plus the Centeron guide pulley.

Questionable that they make an new, specific 11s RD. You mean it was not possible to make a shifter that would make the 12 s RD shift across the 11 s cassette cog pitch?
  • 1 0
 All I see in the pictures is DM?
  • 1 1
 Any 11 speed mountain Shimano shifter will shift 12 speed rear mech over an 11 speed cassette.
  • 1 1
 I dont get the hype people have here. When I look at that derailleur I dont understand who will ever buy that willingly. Its clutch mechanism will fail in less than a month and it will bend after 2 weeks of riding. I had SLX RD and it didnt last more than a month. It's cheap and low quality made of cheap materials anyone who is hyping this low end shimano is out of his mind, yes it will works on bikes where people ride fireroads or mellow trails, but anyone who is interested in proper riding will not find this very reliable. Even XT has some creaking noise problems and clutch problems. XT is good groupset but I personaly dont like whole clutch system and taking care of it all the time. I wouldnt buy this deore or slx, go for XT or GX atleast, cheaper stuff are not worth it.
  • 2 0
 If you couldn't make an slx derailleur last more than a month, then you either got really unlucky, or it was user error. They hold up fine for most people. And yes, this is a budget derailleur, and it looks pretty good for the price.
  • 1 0
 Dear @shimano thanks for reviving MEGARANGE said nobody ever. Is this in rebuke of @SramMedia reviving POWERSPLINE !!!!!!!!!! Whats the next huge throwback? @Magura bringing back Hydraulic Rim Brakes?
  • 2 0
 Hydraulic rim brakes have been in the Magura portfolio ever since they introduced them. It may no longer be a popular option for mountainbikes (or even trials as it seems) but for trekking, commuting and mountain unicycling I don't see them go away anytime soon.
  • 1 0
 How come Deore gets a nicely spaced 11spd 11-51t cassette, but it's all steel?
I'd love an SLX or XT 11-51t 11spd cassette with the top 2 rings aluminum, but not the boat anchor that is Deore....
  • 1 0
 Personally, the new 10 speed wide range cassette got me the most excited. With 11-46t, the range is more than sufficient, and - as others already mentioned - it is much easier to set up.
  • 3 1
 I feel like it’s 2016 again with all of these 12speed drivetrains getting released
  • 4 1
 And so dies my hope of a non-microspline hg+ cassette
  • 4 4
 Nothing I like more then the ability to press my shifter 11 times to make it through an entire cassette, that's how you know it's working. Maybe that's how they make it work under load?
  • 16 0
 I should have been a little more clear in the video - you can shift up three cogs on the cassette (to easier gears) with one push; it's shifting down the cassette to harder gears where it's just one cog at a time.
  • 3 0
 Do the 11 and 10 speed have Hyperglide+? Did I miss that detail somewhere?
  • 4 0
 No, only 12 speed is HG+. 10 & 11 are still HG.
  • 1 0
 That's unfortunate.
  • 2 0
 @LifeIsGouda: Yeah, it would be awesome to have it on 10 and 11 speed. HG+ would require new chain, cassettes and chainrings; which require a lot of R&D bandwidth to engineer, design and produce. They can only do so much at once.
  • 3 0
 Steel cassette looks like a great ebike option for durability.
  • 1 0
 All of you who prays Shimano for this 12 speed Deore have Microspline on your bike? I like the Shimano 10-51 cassette, but i choose the Sram XD
  • 3 0
 You don't have to worry about your freehub body if it comes stock with your bike
  • 1 0
 I was hoping these wouldn't require microspline seeing as they're a budget drivetrain. If Sunrace and SRAM can do it, why not Shimano.
  • 1 0
 the 10 and 11 sp are the old school shimano driver (only use 11t cog). Or am I wrong?
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: I have a 12 sp sunrace cassette on a regular hg driver on my bike right now.
  • 1 0
 @matadorCE: Yeah but do you have a 10 teeth cog ?
  • 2 1
 @BunnyR10: Don't know, don't care. If I want high gearing, I'll hop on my gravel bike.
  • 2 0
 @matadorCE: I suppose what @BunnyR10 meant to say is, it isn't about the number of gears. A cog smaller than 11t requires a freehub body smaller than the regular HG body. In the case of SRAM, that's the XD driver. In the case of Shimano, that's the Microspline body.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: And my point is that for a number of riders, having anything smaller than an 11t cog is not a big deal as for me I prefer the bigger cogs. I know that doesn't work for all cases but that's why bigger chain rings options are available.
  • 1 0
 @matadorCE: Alright of course I get that. But if that's what you're after, wouldn't their new 11sp 11-51 cut it for you? There are already loads of options with this new Deore groupset and I can imagine there must be enough people out there who do want the 10-51 cassette but at a Deore pricepoint. They continue to offer the 10sp and 11sp drivetrain which is amazing for us and a logistical nightmare for the smaller lbs. But yeah, I think it does make sense that as the 11sp drivetrain sticks with the conventional freehub body, it is the 11sp drivetrain that gets the 11-51 range. This way they beat SRAM NX 11-50 both ways.
  • 2 0
 I'm running m8000 on the xc bike and gx on the enduro bike and both work mint
  • 1 0
 It's a shame they don't produce a 12speed 11-51 Cassette. Especially with thier shitty licence politics of the Micro Spline freehub
  • 2 1
 So good. And so affordable.
Made the move back to XT from GX/X0 and I am sooooooooooooooooooooo glad I did. Superior, simple as that!
  • 3 4
 Where's the 13-speed gearbox that Shimano has been working on? Sealed, out of the elements and out of harms way. This is what I want to spend my hard earned money on. Make it happen Shimano.
  • 3 0
 Still no new saints? Frown
  • 3 0
 Coming soon. Seeing a lot of discounts on things like Saint brakes online which is a good signal
  • 2 2
 I'd imagine the M8020 significantly outperforms M820 at a lower price. You can probably put a SAINT sticker on it if you're hung up on the branding.
  • 10 0
 Why? Does Saint even need to be updated?
  • 1 1
 @NWBasser: Saint being updated to 12 speed with microspline means that we might finally get medium-range 12 speed cassettes from a major manufacturer. Where I ride 10-32 or 10-36 would make a ton of sense.
  • 1 0
 @uzurpator: Serious question, would 12 speeds be useful for DH application?
  • 1 0
 @NWBasser: More likely they'd use the spacing and better shifting performance but go with a shorter freehub body and stick with 7sp or so to be able to shift the driveside flange more outboard. That would be nice.

More curious about Zee now. They've got four pot brakes for all groupsets and there is still a 10sp Deore drivetrain on offer. Kind of makes Zee obsolete. The only thing needed would be a proper short cage rear mech, which is what I like Zee for.
  • 2 0
 Their naming convention... really rolls off the tongue
  • 6 8
 I'm not gonna lie, we are seeing XTR, XT, and now Deore. Now I'm not gonna lie, I'm not a huge fan of Shimano brakes (the lever pull is inconsistent) but I do love the overall quality and reliability. That being said, almost a decade ago, we saw Saint get a face-lift. Why have the gravity riders been forgotten? Where's the new Saint? I think its about time... I still think Sram currently holds all the cards.
  • 22 0
 I think you're lying.
  • 1 7
flag jomacba (May 7, 2020 at 9:10) (Below Threshold)
 @tripleultrasuperboostplusplus:
How so? I stated facts, and followed up with an opinion. Non of which are possible, let alone worth lying about...
  • 6 2
 @jomacba: sram only makes xc brakes with 4 or 2 calipers, I don’t think they have all the cards.
  • 3 0
 Why mess with perfection?
  • 3 1
 Thing is, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Probably why the Saint group is that much better than the competition. You want a new Saint brakesets or other Saint parts, go get some even though the technology is several years old. You're still getting brand new stuff out of the box and the parts WILL WORK right out of the box.

Unlike SRAM that like to put out so many models of their components every year. Shimano will only put out new releases every 3-5 years and sometimes in between to actually fix issues to existing models. Now, I wonder if SRAM will come out with a 13, 14, and 15 speed cassette ranges. SRAM probably got people sucked into their marketing gimmicks because anything besides their XX1 lineup really suck and therefore, you have to spend the big bucks to really experience how good quality componentries should work. Even then, their tolerances aren't that great. With Shimano, you know that the XTR, Saint, XT, SLX, Zee, and Deore groups will work right out of the box and without very much complaint or issues. Other than their XTR flagship models, the price points for each can be appreciated by different levels of expectations for every level of riding experience and budget.
  • 1 0
 @TheSlayer99: I can't speak to XC stuff. So if my perspective seems incorrect, I apologize.
  • 3 0
 @CSharp: That concept is all fine and well, provided everything is still fully relevant. While I agree that the current Saint line is very good, you can't argue that the system is getting antiquated. There is proof that 11 and 12 speed chains are stronger, and the lifespan is inherently longer due to the amount of deflection the chain takes.
My personal opinion is Shimano did a great job in the design of their derailleur, but it was designed around a time when tracks and bikes were much different. However, this was clearly not off of Shimano radar. I say this because they designed their system around a 10 speed cassette. They never really produced a good DH quality cassette, which is why the likes of Minnarr and the rest of the syndicate have been running ultegra cassettes. They also added a double click to the shifter, for the upshift, to allow riders to utilize a more effective range. (Two tooth jumps). Now we're seeing riders cutting off the last few cogs because they aren't needed. Sram addressed this issue with their 7 speed cassette. This has been around for around 5 years or so. Now, before all you Shimano lovers start bashing me saying Shimano is better, I'm not stating sram is better. I'm saying srams gravity platform is better thought out. If shimano put out a product that was competitive, and intuitive to what riders are actually looking for, they would have the upper hand (in the gravity segment).
In terms of the Saint brakes. I will admit they have tremendous power. Modulation is not spectacular, but really where they falter, is inconsistent lever throw. Shimano lovers, you can't pretend to not know what I'm talking about. I've heard arguments saying "its because they were designed as a race system and requires constant bleeding", that's a load of shut, because the last thing a WC mechanic wants to do when there is a real issue is bleed a set of brakes because that's just what it is. Its a fault that goes across the entire shimano range, and everybody just accepts it. Love it or hate it folks, these are facts.
I for one would like to see shimano address these issues, because I truly love the quality overall of shimano products, and could definitely get behind that groupset... Once these issues are addressed.
Srams X01 groupset, I must say woros brilliantly. I've not had one issue, and the codes, though not as powerful have been extremely consistent. Hate to say it, there is a reason Sram has more market shares and more oem.
  • 4 1
 @jomacba: The thing with the wandering bite point or the inconsistent brake lever throw that I see a lot of comments about - it's all about the flush and bleed of the Shimano brakes. If it is a true issue, with XT and XTR or even Saint models, Shimano would've fixed it after the first iterations, just like their XT 10-speed clutch issue with their weak stabilizer holder plate inside the derailleur. The second release fixed that issue and you can actually purchase that particular part to fix the issue for their first generation of that derailleur. Anyway, it is true that you can get inconsistent brake lever throw once your mineral oil gets air or contaminants in the hydraulic system. It has happened to me before and that's because I neglected to either remove ALL air out of the tubes or I did a partial flush and left contaminants in my brake fluids. Once I did a complete flush and made sure my mineral oil is totally clean during the flushes, my brakes function as when they're brand new - no wandering bite points, no sloppy brake lever throws. This is the same for XT's I've used before. A few guys I rode with who use Saints and Zees said the same thing. With the free-stroke adjustment, sure Shimano can improve their little Phillips screw thing and make it like the SRAM Code contact point adjustment, but how often do you need to adjust for that while riding? A lot of people (probably like 95%) actually don't know how to adjust the free-stroke on the Shimano and they'll say it doesn't actually work or do anything. Pinkbike actually just showed a video of how that's done! It's all about getting rid of air and contaminants in the brake fluids. Sure, I can blame Shimano for shitty braking once the brakes have worn down and not bleeding the system properly, but that's my fault for not maintaining the system properly in the first place. No one likes to admit they did a half-ass job (inadvertently) bleeding their own brake system.

In terms of things being outdated, some of my old hardtails from the late 80's and 90's still use the old Shimano XT and LX components. That's how good they are and I think the components back then were made so good that a lot of OEM parts are still available world-wide. There's nothing wrong with "antiquated" components if they are solid and still works great. Newer is not always better if it doesn't make a huge difference beside spending more for it. The old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" holds true.
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: you said twice that you're "not gonna lie" anybody who prefaces their statement with that line is instantly not trusted Smile
  • 2 0
 @CSharp: and the shimano brakes use mineral oil so that you don't f*ck everything up when you are having a few beers while bleeding brakes and knock the bottle of oil over. Not that that has ever happened to me with dot fluid...
  • 2 0
 @ptrcarson: Heh, all that alcohol removes the grime and spilled fluid real good! Big Grin
  • 1 0
 I would say many japanese companies are more about refinement than innovation.
  • 1 1
 @jomacba: I’m not talking about their xc stuff, I'm saying their brakes are trash and there’s no difference between the codes and the levels.
  • 1 0
 @TheSlayer99: I would have to highly disagree with you on that, however you are surely entitled to your opinion sir.
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: I have a set of 2 pot m400’s on a bike now and I’ve either glazed the pads or contaminated them, and they outperform all the sram brakes I’ve ridden.
  • 5 0
 @TheSlayer99: The funny thing about objective truth, is no matter what, your correct. Reality is I can't tell you your wrong because your observation is yours, and yours alone. I think there are many variables that play a roll in this. My perspective on sram brakes is they are not as powerful as Shimano. Once again, I really can't say I believe one is better, but for myself I've found ways to get the stopping power i want and the feel I want. I run 220 rotors. They give a similar power to Saint on 203s. But the consistent bite point and super positive feel with loads of modulation, I just can't deny how good these brakes feel. Again, one can say "why fix what ain't broke", I still don't believe thats acceptable. Bikes can be, but generally are not spec'd with necessity. Most people are after the top performance, or best of the best. If you (i say this in general, not anybody specific) feel that what you currently have is good enough, and your happy. Great!!! I can't argue with that. What I can argue with is things CAN be better. And to make excuses as to why you (again nobody specific) accepts these things, then reality is, innovation wouldn't happen. The clutch derailleur wouldn't be a thing... Shimano did that. Suspension wouldn't be as good as it is today... I think we can thank fox for this to really push the industry. The thing is, innovation will never stop. In order to stay competitive, you need to innovate too. Shimano has had a poor OEM market, and a large part of that has been because sram has produced a more desirable product. Do I think spam is better? Nope. Can't say I'd ever purchase any RS products. Not really a fan of most of their brakes, but the codes are very good. They have also come with their issues as well. I've pulled multiple sets out of the box to have a seal fail almost immediately, I can also say Sram stands behind their products with a warranty that is second to none. At the end of the day, everybody is welcome to ride what they like. I personally would like to see more innovation from a company that you would be foolish to run anything else but what they manufacture.
  • 2 0
 Got a pair of deore 4 pot brakes £135...i love the lbs
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer do you know if current 11sp will work with the new 11sp or is the spacing different.
  • 2 0
 Spacing and cable pull is the same. Past derailleurs were not designed to accommodate 51t cog, so for full compatibility, the new derailleur is required.
  • 1 0
 @jyoucha: might be something after market can do mods like the goat link and if I can reuse my shifter that saved a few bucks.
  • 1 0
 Do you have to have the crankset? Could I just get the chain, shifter, cassette and rear mech to achieve 12sp?
  • 1 0
 It will work better if you have a 12spd chainring, and won't work at all with an 11spd because the teeth are too thick
  • 2 0
 Shimano holding all the beers now. This is awesome!
  • 1 0
 Nice! Now I will be buying XT 11-speed at a discount. 11-46 does everything I need it to.
  • 1 0
 If only they sold 11-51 SLX 11spd. That last 9t jump is ridiculous!
  • 1 0
 Is the 11 speed definitely not "hyperglide+"?
Could make a decent upgrade for all my 11 speed bikes...
  • 2 0
 I was looking at that little chart thing, what is a front derailleur?
  • 2 0
 Do the 11 and 10s groupsets use the hyperglide+ shift ramps?
  • 2 0
 those cranks look so good!
  • 1 0
 Wish they would offer a HG hub compatible 12 speed kit. Like a 11-51 but for 12 speed.
  • 1 0
 Microspline conversion isn’t hard with most hubs
  • 1 0
 Good thing about Deore microspline is if you are buying a new bike with it you can easily upgrade later or when the drivetrain wears out
  • 1 0
 @bulletbassman: Are you speaking from experience? I contacted Shimano wanting to know the same thing, and they said "it's complicated". Shimano doesn't even sell separate MS freehub bodies for their own hubs yet.
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: We did a buddy's King hub when the conversion kit came out. Also have converted hubs from standard shimano to XD before. None were particularly difficult.
  • 1 0
 @bulletbassman: Have you converted Shimano brand hubs from HG to MS? (not Chris King or Hope, etc.)
  • 2 0
 Nope can’t say I have
  • 2 0
 Where is Saint? And also Zee? No update at for 8 years
  • 1 0
 I think so.Saint and Zee Long time not update.
  • 2 1
 One upon a time Deore was just a little under XT. Those were the good days. And yeah I’m old.
  • 1 1
 When was that? I remember Deore LX/ DX/ XT, but never just Deore
  • 2 1
 Oh yeah, 6 speed Deore, now I remember!
  • 2 0
 @woofer2609: Yup, MT60, 6 speed, U-brakes and thumbshifters. 1988 I believe,
  • 1 0
 Shimano where the hell is some new saint stuff that's a little lighter and with more consistent bite point on the brakes.
  • 2 0
 What?! Cartridge bearings on Shimano hubs?!
  • 1 0
 Does this mean Alivio is being replaced with Deore M5100, and Acera with Deore M4100?
  • 1 0
 Seems so. Acera/Alivio/Altus also seem bo be pushed to even more budget tier.
  • 1 0
 My 2 chain links worth: Sram is Chevrolet/Holden/Opel/Vauxhall (last two while still GM owned). Shimano is Toyota.
  • 1 0
 Folks sure do have a lot to say about their group sets! I think we all just need to go for a nice bike ride.....
  • 2 0
 sHiNy.
  • 2 1
 Great looking bit of kit there! What do you all think?
  • 1 0
 Love those direct cranks!!
  • 2 0
 For a bottom line crankset, those look really good. If this group starts showing up on a lot of OEM builds, then a lot of budget riders will be extremely happy.
  • 1 0
 "12-speed M6100 brakes" Smile
  • 4 3
 Shimano all day err day! F@#% SRAM!
  • 3 2
 Bring back the optional display on XT or SLX!
  • 3 0
 God why?
  • 3 0
 @sunringlerider: What's wrong with Optional? I miss not looking between my legs to see if I have any gears left... 8/9 spd XT were the best.
  • 2 0
 @sunringlerider: you may not understand since most of Indiana can be ridden on a SS or 1x9. ????
  • 1 0
 @laksboy: oh well played. You could say the same about a few trails at MDO and Madonna could be ss or 1x9 unless you go up and do rock garden. Oh Snap.
  • 1 1
 @laksboy: Personally, I feel like looking between my legs is easier than reading a gear display. Obviously, you disagree, but people of my mindset may have been responsible for driving the option away... sorry?
  • 1 1
 @laksboy: those haven't been relevant since the days of front derailleurs. With shimano 1x shifters, you can feel it you're at the top of the cassette without even trying to initiate a shift. I'll take that over looking down at my bars or between my legs.
  • 1 0
 @sunringlerider: for some reason my 'winky face' got turned into a '????'... You're right about MDO, great place for a SS hardtail. I did climb madonna once on a SS and descended RG on it too, once. It hurt real bad, but I got a pr I only recently bested with gears. I'd still prefer to glance at my bars to see if I have 1 or 2 gears left versus between my legs when in the pain cave. But I'd never force that on anyone, which is why I don't see what the big deal with Optional is...
  • 2 0
 @laksboy:
I’ll agree. Man, I loved my old stumpy with 8s xt on it. When I bumped it to XTR 9s I thought I died and when to heaven. I think I just have flash backs and nightmares of chain suck on 8s stuff and put that with the indicator. Now that’s a grunt getting to rg on a ss. Ps I heart SLO.
  • 1 0
 Did they get rid of it? As long as it isn't I-spec, my 11speed Shimano with bar clamp has an optical display...
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: yeah they may have. I have an xt 11 bar clamp with no display.
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: The article says Deore has the optional display. I'd love to have it on an XT build.
  • 2 0
 I want gearbox!
  • 1 2
 Give me an updated bombproof Altus 9spd instead of that, with a 11-46 or 48 cassette, and I`ll be the happiest man on Earth.
Shimano should ``copy`` Box instead of Sram...
  • 1 0
 Will 10s M4100 and and 11s M5100 have Hyperglide Plus?
  • 1 0
 Yeah we need to know how this is going to shift. 10sp and a big range cassette traditionally was a challenge to get it to make the bigger steps smoothly. My guess is that it'll be a big downgrade in shift quality from the 12sp unfortunately.
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: Judging from the other comments, the M5100 and M4100 groups won't have HG+, unfortunately. In a few years, maybe....
  • 4 2
 So long GX/NX/SX!!
  • 1 0
 My budget HT came with NX 11-speed. Now I know what to replace it with when it fails. I love the XT on my main bike.
  • 1 0
 oh deore....SRAM have taken a big hit...
  • 1 0
 Shimano SIS over SRAM XXI Eagle
  • 2 3
 Will the new larger capacity 630wah battery fit in the same opening as the 500 on shimano EMTBs?
  • 1 1
 Nope, the new battery is a few centimeters longer. So no luck for those who bought the brand new Santa Cruz Heckler or Canyon Spectral:ON.

ebike-mtb.com/en/new-630-wh-shimano-battery-display
  • 2 2
 For everyone who’s weak AND poor!
  • 7 8
 Watch your back Sram , the Japs are coming back with A vengeance
  • 1 1
 SRAM is now irrelevant.
  • 1 2
 Too many cables...
  • 3 6
 Do you need 12 speeds???......or do you just need stronger legs?
  • 2 0
 @CircusMaximus: I like your style
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