Ask Pinkbike: Sizing, Buying, Broken Spokes, & Diagnosing Creaks

 Straight up, bike market's hitting harder than the stock market #tothemoon

 @labrinsky: Out of stock Transition Spur $5999. Used Transition Spur on PB $7500.

 @chriskneeland: -thats the truth but where I live the used usually has had at least a bit of upgrade (hopefully on the bits that really needed to be upgraded) and there's no sales tax

 Man that's what I thought to but I've been reposting and reposting even with an OBO in the title hoping to at least have people throw out some offers. Like I for sure posted the bike a little high at first and have dropped it a few hundred bucks since and still no nibbles.

 @pandafoo: maybe it's because your shock is mounted upside down

 @labrinsky: It doesnt matter. RockShox tech said it was no worries at all.

 @pandafoo: I know it doesn't matter, it was a joke lol

 @onemind123: if hell turns out to be real, I suspect you’ll have a spot reserved.

 @onemind123: just because you can doesn't mean you should

 @pandafoo: to be honest though, I think your bike is still way too expensive. My buddy just bought an '18 carbon Sentinel with XO1 12 speed and i9 alloy wheels for $3700.

 @onemind123: I hear the bike thieves are getting similar ROI.

 @chriskneeland: supply and demand, I guess

 The market for retro BMX bikes is really crazy. Those SEs and 29er GT Pro Performers are bought up on the day they’re released, and people just turn around and sell them for 2.5 times the cost.

 Don't feed the troll

 @pandafoo: I had better luck on Facebook marketplace when I sold my bike a few months ago. The offers that I got on PB were very low, had a few crazies on FB as well but ended up getting almost MSRP for a 2020 Stumpy Allowing me to upgrade to a 21 stumpy EVO.

 @onemind123:
May your tires always flat and your derailleur forever skip

 @onemind123: YOU SUCK

 @onemind123: all my shovels have axe edges. Sit on one and find out

 @labrinsky: lol my bad man.

 @onemind123: either people are too lazy to do any research and shop around or have too much money and don’t give AF. Sounds like your supporting your LBS to me.

 @labrinsky: I was about to say the same thing. If your bike hasn’t sold in this market, you are asking too much.

 @pandafoo: thats a $2500 bike at best. $2200 without the covid tax.

 My 2 favorite hobbies, bikes and computers, have both been hit super hard by this pandemic. Can't get anything and if I do I could sell either for a profit.

 @onemind123: it’s a dick move. Your exactly like the people who bought all the toilet paper. It’s ridiculously selfish.

 @conoat: he's not getting what he wants because A) his price is too high for the type/style/makeup of bike people want where he lives B) the person who is willing to pay that hasn't come around
Where i live he would be close into getting his price, while at the same time what i want and can't get is available down where he lives

 @pandafoo: Technically that's true, but mounted that way the oil has a much harder time keeping the seals lubricated, and tends to just pool up in the head of the shock and not do anything.

 @onemind123: rough.

 @techride: just happy I picked up 3 Santa Cruz to resell marked up before they add on their 10% increase. Take possession of them Friday. Will be interesting if they sell faster or slower than norco.

 Providing bad service is inexcusable but charging money for their time is exactly how shops pay the bills; don't fault them for that. Proper assessment of a problem is just as important as and requires as much or more expertise than actually conducting the repair so it all gets billed. If it was easy and worthless you wouldn't be bringing it to a professional.

 Agree about the shop mechanics. One shop built my bike... I gave them all the parts including my OneUp stem that had the compression fitting so that you didn't have to tap the fork and use the threaded version. My bike came back to me with the threaded version used (they tapped my fork) and my original compression parts missing! I was like umm... wtf guys? They told me they never saw the compression fittings and just threaded the fork and put it together. "Where did you get those parts?" was my question.. "don't know we just have spares lying around and thought you maybe lost them or whatever."... f*ck... maybe call me first... so I really need to spell this shit out??

So next year, take my new bike build to another shop... pick it up and the mechanic obviously had no idea what "super boost' spacing was... spacers on the wrong sides and the chainline was all f*cked up and rubbing on the chain guide. Dude... the SRAM puts a very specific document that fully outlines compatibility and how to install that is the third hit on google when you search "sram dub super boost". I fixed it and called them back to speak to the mechanic so I could educate him on SuperBoost.

And these are supposedly shops that specialize in high end enduro/freeride mountain bike service and sales. I think next time I will just take a day off or whatever to take the time to do myself.

I will say though that before the pandemic... I was able to demo 5 different bikes I was contemplating buying. My local shops do... or did have pretty good demo programs.

 @islandforlife: Yeah I'm not surprised. If you want to done right often you have to diy it. Luckily building a bike isn't super complicated, just requires a bunch of special tools.

 Yep. Buy tools instead of paying someone else. No mechanic cares as much about my bike working well as I do.

 @Noah353: well tools and space.

 @riklassen: I've seen some great mechanics be completely defeated by press fit bb shells that were out of spec from the factory. No matter how many times you remove it, clean it, reinstall it, remove it again, add loctite or whatever other miracle paste you fancy, reinstall it, replace it with a new bb, replace it with a wheels manufacturing bb, what have you... if the frame's bb shell is out of spec, you're screwed and your bike will always creak. Press-fit bb's are garbage.

 @islandforlife: yup the only work I have had done by a shop in the past 10 years was when they built the new bike I bought from them a few months ago. When I picked up the bike they acknowledged the brake bleed sucked and agreed to redo it (I know shops usually don’t have to bleed brakes on initial builds but they should if the brake feels like crap). but I didnt have time to wait around for the bleed that day. I assumed the bike would be properly set up when I got the call saying my bike was all ready. Not to mention when I showed up they asked if I wanted it converted to tubeless. Maybe ask me this on the phone before I show up ready to pick up my new bike instead of wait until I am there in person and tell me it will take 30-60 minutes? 60 minutes to set up tubeless?

The front pads never bedded in properly. When I called about this issue the mechanic on the phone told me they bed all pads and set up brakes perfectly before sending a new bike home. He obviously wasn’t aware that they knowingly sent me home with a bad bleed to begin with and his assumption they bike was sent out the door with perfectly set brakes was incorrect. I’d rather buy new pads and deal with it myself than continue to deal with that kind of chicanery. And lesson learned i will never try to save a few hundred $ by buying a complete bike again just to have to deal with a sub par build on my brand new bike.

 @mcgetskinny Nice sweeping generalization. I think it’s funny that people still expect shops to somehow afford to hire skilled mechanics and free service but they buy their bikes and parts online. Unless it’s a really busy area, shops can’t make it on labor alone. I’m not blaming the riders or the shops, it’s just a trickle down effect of how consumerism has been so well received in the bike industry.

 You are so right. A good LBS with a mechanic you trust is so important. I bought my last bike from a different shop as my favorite LBS was sold out. Turns out there were nipples in the rim rolling around. They said they would charge me to rebuild. I asked about a warranty and they said they charge for sending things out for warranty "because there's paperwork".

 @Super7: LoL I had a shop try to charge me for a warranty part without telling me up front about it. The individual also flat out lied to me and told me that replacing the part myself would void my warranty, clearly because they were mad I wasn't paying them to do the work. Funny thing is I was about to drop 6k on a new bike, on a brand they carried no less. Needless to say I took my business elsewhere.

Lots of terrible shops out there but the good ones are worth their weight in gold!

 @TEAM-ROBOT: if its the frame’s bb shell is out of spec why is it the bb that is garbage? Surely its the poor tolerances during manufacture (of the frame) thats the elephant in the room here.
How come our pressfit hub bearings; pressfit frame bearings don’t creak... until their worn at least)

 @mcgetskinny don’t tar us all with that brush. Some of us put a lot of passion into and our very good at our work!
If your lbs doesn’t do that then go somewhere else

 @TEAM-ROBOT: no, manufacture's tolerance spec and QC are garbage. all of them. not a single manufacturer spends the time and money to get it right! not even for threaded bb's! the difference is a threaded bb doesn't creak and eat it's self when it's out of alignment. It might not be as buttery smooth and may wear a bit faster but at least it's reliable.

TLDR: the principles behind PF BB's aren't the issue, the execution is.

 @conoat: I would argue that Pivot does PF BB shells right. Mine have been flawless.

 @bchampig: I might listen to that. my FB went 2 full years(2500mi 1M+feet of descending) and not a peep.

 @emptybe-er: 1. Bikes aren't hard to build... you don't need to be very "skilled" to be a good shop mechanic and so the pay is appropriate and reflects that. Any shop worth visiting should be falling over backwards to service bikes bought online. Shops make great money in service (margins on bikes are very tight) and servicing someone's bike they bough online is a great way to bring a new customer into the shop who might by some kit, tires, upgrade parts etc, etc, etc and may even buy their next bike from them. Also it's been years now and online bike sales have not destroyed shop sales... good LBS's are doing just fine. Shitty ones aren't... but that's on them.

 @islandforlife: Shitting on an entire profession then claiming those same people should be bending over backward for you really betrays how arrogant and entitled you are.

 @fullfacemike: What?? haha... just telling it like it is, if you can't handle reality, that's on you man.

 @conoat: It sounds like we're in agreement. When I said "Press-fit bb's suck," I wasn't specifically referring to BB cups or press-in bearings, I was referring more generally to the whole system, as in "The press-fit bb system sucks." Like you said, manufacturers have poor tolerances for all bb's and bb shells, press-fit or otherwise. The difference is that the threaded bb system can accommodate bad tolerances and the press-fit system can't.

 @islandforlife: margins on bikes are not tight

 @islandforlife: Nah dude, that entire paragraph is based on your (crappy) opinion. Go do some research and see how fast bike stores are closing.

 @islandforlife: Ha! That’s an unfortunate viewpoint. And a common one, usually held by people with little skill. Being a good mechanic takes time, just like any trade. You probably just don’t know enough to know what you don’t know, I’m guessing.

 @islandforlife: Clueless

 @timbud: Margins on bikes have always been pretty tight, actually. And since customer direct sales have taken over in the last 5 yrs, full retail is maybe around 30% margin. But when do bikes sell for full retail? Never.
For a small/med size shop, margins are usually around 15-20% all said and done. That’s not counting shipping, building the bike, etc.

 @Super7: warranty ain’t free. Shipping. Handling.

 @WavisOShea: Typically that's covered by the manufacturer doing the warranty but not always. I had to deal with SMITH recently and it specifically says in their warranty policy that you pay shipping.

 @emptybe-er: its been full rrp in the UK since covid kicked the industry up the arse... even with the recent increases.

 True, but this is easy to test. If the creaking stops when you pedal out of the saddle, it’s probably the seatpost. Personally I’ve had a lot of success with removing / cleaning / re-installing the pedals.

 @cvoc: Sometimes there's enough flex in the frame to still creak at the post even when you're standing. The true test is pull the post out completely then test ride. Checking the pedals is the real deal though; always my first step when I'm unsure.

 I've had more creaking noise coming from dirty threads in seatpost clamps and saddle clamps. Also, it really helps if you grease the interface between the seatpost clamp and the frame, because it distributes the clamping force more evenly.

 @fullfacemike: This. It took me a month to realize it.

 what if I just hear the creak, recognize it's the seat post and turn the music up? :-D

 saddle rails. Urghrghgrhhgrhgrh

 This man speaks the truth.

 this man spokes the truthes

 Also, aluminum spokes are definitely brittle after a couple years. Always go brass if you aren't racer!

 Exactly. When the spokes start to break at the nipples, there is a good chance the spokes are too long, and the nipple threads are cutting into the spoke. Or maybe there is sand or salt in the nipple, causing premature wear and corrosion fatigue.

 @harmar: brass spokes hey tell me about these things...

 My experience breaking 5 spokes over the course of the 2019 summer says otherwise (4/5 of which occurred while climbing).

Backed the tension off a bit from the recommended spec and no issues since - We Are One wheels.

 @hhaaiirryy: **nipples

 Love WeAreOne!

 This is an incorrect statement, don't over-tension your spokes or they will continue to break at the nipple.

Which would you say is the weak point in the system:
a) Hub
b) Steel Spoke
b) Carbon (in this case) rim
c) Aluminum nipple

Unless you have garbage rims, the aluminum nipple is the weak point in the system by design. Aluminum has no fatigue life so it will always fatigue to a point of failure. Exceeding recommended tensions will accelerate this.

I had some cheap gravel wheels that were doing the same thing and the guy who taught me how to build wheels (he is now a DT Swiss tech rep) told me they were over tensioned and to start saving for a new set. Once they are over-tensioned like this, you cannot simply reduce the tension or they will be under-tensioned, you basically need to rebuild with fresh spokes and nips.

 @hhaaiirryy: Probably not what he meant but your comment gave me a chuckle. My first thought was how much extra weight brass spokes would add. A quick look at the Google box tells me brass is roughly 3x denser than an aluminum alloy.

 Well said overall! Under-tensioning always causes more problems than over-tensioning. The reality is that many rims can take tensions exceeding what's labelled as the max - though always aim to use the max as the guideline. As Jobst Brandt lays out in "The Bicycle Wheel," still the most important book ever published on wheelbuilding for cycling, back in the day wheels were deemed properly in suitable final tension at the point of buckling, at which point you would back things off and call it a job. Rims are eons stronger now. Most quality spokes - meaning butted spokes with 2.0+ mm thread areas and made by DT, Sapim, Wheelsmith, or Pillar, as opposed to straight-gauge spokes or cheap generics - will have a maximum tensile and yield strength exceeding rims and hubs and nipples. Aluminum nipples weakened by corrosion (salt, sand, grime, etc.) may end up being the weak link in a wheel system, but in good shape most 7000-series alloy nipples can take up to 125 Kgf (1250 N) before they start to round out or become vulnerable to deformation and thus potential premature wear when riding. The reality is that the best wheelbuilds are tensioned at or close to the max listed rim tension on the "high" flanges: typically 120 Kgf (1200 N) on the NDS front and DS rear. "Deliberate low tension" (NOT suggested above in this piece) is an absolutely nonsensical concept in professional wheelbuilding! When race mechanics dalliance in this practice they do so knowing that they will need to replace or re-tension such wheels immediately after the race or thereabouts. When spokes break at the nipple, the most likely cause is bad articulation - non-straight nipple-spoke angles from the hub flanges to the spoke holes - and/or winding during assembly, with the result that the nipples essentially create stress risers in the spokes that may also have wound and misthreaded. Clean, lubricated nipples and the use of non-marring pliers to prevent winding of butted spokes (and a bladed key to prevent winding of bladed spokes), tensioned highly with good articulation and even tension on a given rim side, leads to strong mountain, CX, road, or e-bike wheels.

 I have broken spokes on wheels from being overtensioned. for sure. Reynolds Black label hoops and Cx-Ray spoke on a DT prolock nipple. I know they were all even and over tensioned because I built the wheels. lol. I popped multiple spokes within a month. rebuilt the wheel to 90% tension(after correctly reading the spec), and never broke another spoke for two years.

so saying they never break from overtension is simplistic and inherently not true. in fact, even in an undertensioned wheels, they break from being over tensioned momentarily! but yes, even tension uber alas!

 @hhaaiirryy: it's a really heavy concept, you wouldn't understand!

 @HogtownWheelsmith: Have you ever tensioned a nipple to failure in a load jig? If not you should, and will find pretty quickly that a quality alloy nipple has higher tensile strength than a steel spoke. Though I wouldn't really call it tensile strength for the nipple. The spoke will sheer off before the nipple rounds or sheers. Inside a wheel, a hub flange or rim will give way before the nipple does.

As far as I can tell there are a LOTS of rims that CANNOT exceed what's labelled as there max - probably more that cannot than can. Some can't even tolerate their suggested max. From what I have seen come though the doors of a couple of shops I have been associated with, RaceFace rims go whacky before you reach their max tension and bulge around the spoke holes. Stan's and several others will develop waviness and eventually cracks. It has been our practise to target 10-15 kgf under the max for many rims. Some wheel builds, especially with offset spoke holes, tolerate a lower max tension well because the low side has been brought up closer to the high side, and it's the low side that we are concerned most with anyway, right? After all, as you say, spokes fail from being under-tensioned, and it's the low side that would be under-tensioned the most.

Add to that, that there are also specified max tensions on hubs, that you seem to have totally skipped and not mentioned. There are a number of hub manufacturers that will not warranty hub beyond their specified tension limits. Most I know if stop at 125 kgf, so while some alloy and carbon rims may have a sticker that says 130-140 kgf is okay, it often isn't.

IMHO, 105-115 kgf is a very safe place to be for most rims. Some like Stan's older generation mtb rims or very light carbon rims require even less. To make the blanket statement that you should always work to the recommended max or in the 120 kgf zone on a regular basis is a bold and dangerous statement. And I definitely wouldn't go above it in my limited experience as there seems to be no benefit, but a lot of risk.

@hardcore-hardtail You guys are wrong in saying the alloy nipple is the weak link here. Not if built right. Perhaps over time they may become so especially if low quality products are used, but they don't start that way. I have been fortunate enough to have worked with some good mechanics who have demonstrated these things to me in real life, as mentioned above, and I've built 40 or 50 pair myself under pretty good supervision.

 @ahootes I'm glad you didn't build my wheels...

 @ahootes: As long as ALL nipple threads (including the partial threads in the head with the the slot) are utilized from the threads of the spoke, the spoke will take all the tension. It's not the nipple taking the tension. If you're into wheel building, take a look at some of the Youtube videos from Bill Mould. He's a master wheel builder and he's part of the ASTM bicycle committee. I had a chat with him over the phone a few weeks ago. He knows what he's talking about. People like him, Brandt, Sheldon Brown, Musson, and a few others who are pioneers of wheel building - those are the ones I trust. It's funny how Bill mentioned there are so much crap out on the Internet about spoke tensioning since he teaches the physics about wheels at the university.

 @CSharp: Exactly. When you build an alloy nipple correctly, just as you say, filling all the threads to the slot as the back of the head of the nipple, the nipple really can't fail strictly due to high tension. It's not carrying the tension itself, which is why I said "Though I wouldn't really call it tensile strength for the nipple". You're right on point.

Easy to demonstrate this as I mentioned, in a load jig. The spoke will fail before the nipple. I've watched this with my own eyes. Mr. Hardcore just doesn't like being wrong.

But ally may see an early grave if they aren't made from quality alloy and don't have a good anodization treatment. Corrosion is a dog, but with good nipples comes corrosion resistance. On the good alloy nipples - hint for Mr. Hardcore - DT isn't making them!

Anyway, I agree fully with your original post, and this one as well. There is a lot of bull out there. And a lot of people just repeating what they hear without doing the work and testing to see the results for themselves. I'm familiar with Mould, and have read lots of literature from Brandt, Brown, and Musson. Brandt was the most interesting of them to me, only because I think he had several flaws in his book (and I'm not the only one to think so) and he went down ardently defending himself against his detractors. All in all though, the summation of these works is a great body of knowledge. That said, there are many very experienced wheel builders creating new literature and bodies of work currently that are great as well. We live in a great time for learning not only from the peers in our shop space, but peers all over =). You just have to be careful who you are sponging up information from, as you have pointed out, there is a lot of bull out there.

Really I think experience counts as much as reading; learning how different rims react to tension, and seeing the results with our own eyes, versus chirping out random boiler plate tension numbers and making blanket statements for all builds, that counts in my books.

 @conoat: could also be that the nipples are oxidised considering they are 2yrs old. Had similar problem, changed the nipples and not a broken spoke or nipple last year and half. Not shure by the question posted if the spokes crack or the nipples.

 I didn't test ride the bike I just bought, but I did get to sit on it, which I found very helpful

 Same here, I haven't test rode a bike before buying for many years, some bikes have worked out better than others, buying and selling is not that big of a deal. Just bought a Druid, never tried one, only seen one in wild once. Built it last weekend, two rides in, still tweaking set up, so far it rides fine.

Demo events are fine, but trying to demo a bike is often difficult, esp if it's a popular bike. Even then,. what are we talking about for a demo,. parking lot, five hundred yards on the trail?

I balk at buying boutique, like the Cavalerie, but I've bought Lenz, Guerilla Gravity, Foes, and now Forbidden without a single demo, and I loved them all!

 Absolutely to that. But it does take some confidence in your knowledge of your own riding and desires.

If somebody's an absolute beginner then they likely don't know the "difference" between a 120mm light trail bike & a 150mm borderline-Enduro bike, let alone what's good for the trails they enjoy riding.

 @EnduRowan: That's fair. It's tough as a beginner but they're also the folks least able to tell the difference between two similar bikes even with a proper test ride. I think it's important to ask "what do I want to do with this bike?" and "what am I actually going to do with this bike?" and buy the correct travel and features accordingly. Fit can be a little tricky but most people do ultimately fall into one size or another. That's where a good shop with proper guidance comes in. Can't tell you how many people I've talked down from massive enduro rigs when they're exclusively riding local XC with no aspirations to do much else and they've had a better experience for it. The whole "sell the customer exactly what they ask for, no holds barred" mentality is what makes bad experiences.

 @nurseben: before I bought my last bike, I was able to demo 5 different bikes I was looking at. My local shops all seem to have pretty good demo programs. You pay $50 and get the bike for 3 days... as much as you want to ride it. Rinse and repeat... if you buy a bike they put the money you spent on demos towards the purchase.

This was pre covid... I'm sure those bikes are sold now.

 I ride a small, so test rides are almost non-existant. Have not tested any of my bikes before buying. Luckily all have been fantastic, minor setup changes and good to go.

 I’ve only test ridden the first of my last three bikes. They’re all the same manufacturer. I’m not a brand loyalist, per se, but I know how the bikes will fit and ride. Even between models somewhat.

 @EnduRowan: haha that's funny as I was going to buy an Anthem, but hated the geo on it and bought a Trance instead. At least I did know what I was getting when it bought it, lol.

 When my BB creaks, it's often time to clean pivots, the crank and the bb bearings. A grain on sand in any thight spot creaks...

 @okidou: I came here to say this, we are well past the days of poor pressfit tolerances. If a bike is creaking it usually is NOT the BB, but any manner of pivot or part attached to the frame. Grease your hanger/frame interface, check your headset bearings. Try different pedals. Is your crank spindle properly greased? There's a dozen other places I'd check before going to the BB.

 @BigLips93: rear axle

 The latter is probably the bigger issue. Why from when you have nothing to sell. It could be good marketing but could also backfire.

 After two years, it's probably just fatigue from the super stiff Enve rim. Once you've broken three spokes in separate incidents, it's time for a full rebuild.

 @nouseforaname: I had a rash of 3 or 4 spokes break on a set of pre built dt swiss m1700 wheels after about a year. replaced em 1 at a time as they broke, kept checking for proper tension and didn’t need to make any major adjustments and haven’t had another break for 2 years. Maybe an anomaly and I’m still wondering what that issue was that went away suddenly. But in many cases you are probably correct.

 That makes no sense whatsoever. If it helps you decide which bike is most similar to your current bike, it also helps you decide which ones are different and how. As long as you can test ride the bike on trails which are representative of the kind of riding you want to do, it should be pretty easy to tell in a few minutes whether you like it or not.

 Just don’t think a quick demo ride tells you a whole lot because you never get used to the different setup and dial everything in then get dialed in to how the bike rides. It makes sense if you can demo a bike for a week but most demos I’ve seen are for an hour or two maybe a whole day and trying out a few bikes via a 1 week rental would be stupid money that could be spent on better components. I just think for most research is better than demoing.?5

 I hate how some bikes pedal. I have no idea how to tell from reading a review but a quick demo and I can tell if I can live with it. I'll never buy a bike again without a short test at least.

 @iantmcg: another factor is how well each individual can understand the feel of a bike and how well it achieves their intended purpose. Even after 25+ years of mountain biking I sucked at this until the past few years when I finally acquired a few different bikes with adjustable Geometry and travel. And I’m still learning.

 @acali: Yeah, but you should know what you like based on anti squat and other suspension curves. A quick demo often isn’t enough time to get to the techs climbs that will test rear suspension climbing performance.

 @iantmcg: "trails which are representative of the kind of riding you want to do" is the operative point.

The local specialized dealer is the only shop that regularly has demo bikes, and they were generous enough to let me take out an Enduro for a four day trip to Derby as nobody else had it booked in. Giant do a big demo day at a local MTB park once every couple of years, but the shop haven't had any demo bikes in ages. The local Norco & Merida shop and the Trek dealer let you do a car-park test ride but likewise don't get any demo stock from the importers. For anything boutique, you're laying down cold hard cash sight unseen.

Hardly anyone does organised demos here, so most of the bikes I tried before my last purchase (Remedy, Hightower, Megatower, SB150, SB130, Strive, Spectral, Optic, Reign, Stumpjumper) were borrowed from friends, or from complete randoms of similar height & weight I met on the trails who agreed to a 5 minute swap. "Nice bike mate, I'm looking for a new one, what do you think of it? If I can keep up with you, would I be be able to have a ride of it when we get to the last set of berms/techy uphill switchbacks/off-camber rock-garden?". Rode close to $50k worth of bikes in a single day in Derby (twice voted EWS race of the year) without paying a cent just by being friendly to other riders.

 What about a 36 spoke hub and rim combo using double butted spokes and brass nipples?

 @abzillah: We ride profile 32 hole hubs. Just cause they could take the beating in our BMX days. 32 hole front and rear. Sapim spokes seemed way better than DT swiss. We did lace the Profile MTB elite hubs to DT swiss rims and so far 2 seasons DH fun

 I'm 5'6" and have never had an issue with droppers. Always ride a m with 150mm drop.
Normally a couple inch between seat clamp and dropper collar. What bikes are you buying where you have to have a 75mm one.

 @filryan: I bought a Vitus Mythique that was a medium, ended up selling it because it was too big. Would have had to replace the dropper and stem. Also couldn't really stand over it even on my toes. I now have a Scott Genius thats a small. It has a 100mm dropper. Maybe, I could fit a 125mm. The medium I would have had to replace the dropper out of the box.

 @twoflats: wow thats crazy. I've had
Cannondale jekyll, intense tracer, lapierre zesty and now santa cruz megatower all with 150mm no problem. Surely you either have short legs for your height or you pedal with you seat too low.

 @filryan: I like to think of myself as a fairly proportional person. Maybe I'm finding all the bikes with long BB to seat tube measurements.

Medium Scott BB to seat tube is 440mm + 170mm for crank+ 150mm dropper + 75mm seat = 835mm almost 33 inches.

 @twoflats: dude something is def off, my gf rides an SB115, Medium, with a 150mm dropper. one inch shorter than you and there is actually like a good 3/4 of collar before being slammed

 @twoflats: yea maybe you are mate. The megatower is 380 seat tube length so if measured from same place you have lost 60mm there, but I have nearly 40mm between seat clamp and collar. Running a re verb.

 That's something you have to watch out for, but many new bikes are trending towards shorter seat tubes for exactly this reason. Stay away from frames with bends in the seat tube though! I am 5'6" on a size medium Knolly Fugitive and could probably fit a 200mm dropper if I wanted to.

 I'm also 5'6" and have the short legs/long torso problem! Currently riding a Small Nukeproof Mega as standover was a bit tight on anything bigger, but that's a few years old now. Newer bikes are definitely getting better for us stumpy legged folks, I'll be going medium for my next ride.

 I’m 5’6 with midget legs but I rock a bike yoke revive on my medium HD4 with 160 mm of drop and room to spare and recently test rode a 2021 sentinel also in medium with a 180 oneup dropper and also had room to spare!

 3 of us in my riding group had issues with many broken spokes on our I9 Enduro S wheels. The steel straight-pull spokes always break at the first few threads inside the nipple, which is super annoying because you have to remove the tire and rim tape to fix it. I9 has been very good at taking care of us under warrantee though.

 @Skooks: Wow...that's honestly the first I've heard of this. I've been hammering the shit out of the I9's on my enduro bike for the last two seasons with no issues. Meanwhile my DT Swiss wheelset on my DH bike can't handle a weekend without snapping a spoke. I'll keep an eye on that.

 @chriskneeland: Yeah, hopefully it's just a problem with a small batch of these wheels and not a systemic issue. I actually really like them and think they are some of the best aluminum wheels going.

 @Skooks: Exact same, here, sprung a spoke on my rear of my Enduro S wheelset 3 straight rides. i9 took them back and totally re-laced, even serviced the hub and everything.

 @Skooks: I suspect Chris is talking about I9 wheels with alloy spokes, not steel spokes? Still odd though, seeing consistent breakage of steel spokes like that. I9 is one of very few manufacturers who build a pretty good wheel from the factory. They have a pretty slick operation.

 I also have had issues with my Enduro S rear rim. I lost two spokes in the course of three rides

 @BenReohr: Are they still under warrantee? You should give I9 a call.

 It needs a flag.

 If he's 6'5" I'm guessing that's the biggest they have. I am 6'6" and ride an XXL and my 210mm dropper is a few inches out of the frame.

 @OgreRider08: I know. I'm 6'5" and that's part of the reason I don't ride Ibis.

 Price. They thread the small frames but not the XL or XXL. Crazy. All comes down to quick output..