Ask Pinkbike: Sketchy Carbon Bars, New Bike or Upgrade, Sharing the Trail, & Fuel Containers
Here at Pinkbike, we get inundated with all kinds of questions, ranging from the basic "Can I have stickers?" to more in-depth, soul-searching types of queries like if you should pop the question or what to name your first child. Ask Pinkbike is an occasional column where we'll be hand-picking and answering questions that have been keeping readers up at night, although we'll likely steer clear of those last two and keep it more tech-oriented.
Sketchy Carbon Bars...
Question: @Fenwick458 asks in the Road Cycling & Touring forum: I recently discovered my bars are too wide, so I started looking for some 420mm (it's a road bike but this carries over to MTB), and stumbled across a 'Toseek Chinese carbon integrated bar and stem' for only £38 delivered on eBay. I did a few searches and found a few other bits on the web about them, some saying they are terrible and dangerous, and some saying they are fine. I thought, "What do I have to lose?" and bought some to see how good they were.
They arrived cracked, but eventually I received a second set...(long story). I made a jig I could fasten into the vice and test them before fitting. I tested the 1st set to destruction on the cracked side (which was easier than I thought, I was led to believe carbon fiber wouldn't shear off in a clean break, but it did) and tried as hard as I could to break them by pushing down as hard as possible on the unbroken side, and with both hands on the top of the bars, but couldn't break them. A friend also tried and couldn't break them, they seem strong.
 | Whenever I think about what the worst bike part to fail while on a ride is, it's a road bike handlebar or a headtube. Take those bars off your bike right now and throw them out! Seriously. What are you going to do if it breaks mid-descent at high speed? You're going to get really hurt or possibly die. Carbon parts are expensive for a reason - they're not overly straightforward to make. Now it doesn't matter so much as where they come from (US, China, UK, etc.) as to how they were produced. Anything that arrives in packaging, as you described, has a chance of being damaged in shipping and it could be in a way that you can't see. Companies have had recalls over seemingly insignificant issues with carbon because when it's not made correctly, it can fail. And those failures can be catastrophic, as you described. The testing and engineering that goes into any reputable carbon product is extensive. Companies invest lots of money into ensuring that their products are safe and reliable. If shipping a product somehow caused its failure, I don't think I'd trust the jig and test you made (although it's cool) in any way, especially once you consider all of the impacts, vibrations, temperature variables, and more that your handlebars will encounter even just over the course of one ride. Check out this article from a couple of years back when I visited Zipp's facility in Indianapolis for an idea of what their testing and manufacturing look like for carbon wheels and other parts. |
Zipp test their carbon at every step throughout the process to ensure things are done precisely. Any other reputable carbon manufacturer is going to do the same because of how critical proper construction is. This machine measures tolerances of the rims down to microscopic levels.
Gas Container for Trail Building?
Question: @mattfisher22 asks in the Trail Building: For maintenance and building new trail, sometimes I need to pack in a chainsaw. Has anyone had a good experience with the aluminum MSR bottles? They get mixed reviews on Amazon. I'd love to hear how you carry gas/bar oil for a chainsaw in your pack.
| I've been using the same MSR bottle for 14 years now and it's still going strong. Yes, the seals do break down over time, but otherwise, it's good to go. Depending on how often I'm out on the trail, I'll change what mix I have in the can. Typically, I'll make my own mix, but if it's a little more sporadic, I like to use the way more expensive but far more stable, Stihl Motomix (or similar) pre-mix. Some of the Lowe's or Home Depot stores even have cans of the pre-mix that fit in the side of your pack just like a MSR bottle. Of course, the MSR bottle is still good for bar & chain oil as well, just make sure you don't mix your stove fuel with your saw fuel...probably a fast way to ruin both. One other thing that came to mind that's worth noting is that it's a good idea to carry a spare bar and chain with you if you're only taking in one saw. That way, if you get the bar pinned way back in the middle of nowhere and can't wedge it out, you can usually pop the motor off, add on the other bar, and fix your mistake. Alas, if it's in your budget, I'd highly recommend some of the new electric setups. Long runtime, high torque, and really awesome. Plus, you just have to carry a spare battery and bar oil. |
Who Gets the Right of Way?
Question: @speed10 asks: Oooold question. It used to be that uphill got the right of way because losing momentum on the climb sucks, and restarting can sometimes be tricky. Obviously restarting on the down is as easy as letting off the brakes.
Now I hear people saying “enjoy the down” and yielding to the downhill traffic so they can stay in the flow. Seems less people value the challenge of cleaning the climb without putting a foot down. More people wanna bomb the hill and I’m cool with both. I just wish it was consistent.
What is the consensus? Who gets the right of way, uphill or downhill riders?
| To me this is very straightforward, yet it's met with a lot of debate. Uphill riders get the right of way. Hikers and horses? They get the right of way everywhere. If you're on multi-use trails, bikes are at the bottom of the food chain. This does change when you're on bike-specific trails or directional trails, however, the bottom line is that you should be nice and say "Hi" when you encounter other trail users. Everyone is just out in the woods trying to have fun. Nothing gets to me quite like someone rude on a descent with what I call 'Strava face' - you know, the totally gripped rider, on the edge of control, going for a PR while others are just out trying to enjoy their day. C'mon. Get a life, dude. Grow up. Unless you're on a closed race course or someone's life is in danger, there's no reason not to chill out and be friendly. If you can't do your workout that's so important without being a jerk, you should probably go somewhere else or re-evaluate why you even ride. Now, if you're in the middle of a fast descent on a multi-use trail and you can't safely stop, you're probably going too fast, but I always do try to get out of the way of a descending rider and let them keep going, if it makes sense, even though good etiquette says I should have the right of way. I feel that even though it could add to the confusion of who should yield, I'd rather add to being nice and saying hello. |
Just be nice. Horses can be annoying and there are bad apples in every bunch but the horseback riders around where I live do a large part in keeping some backcountry trails open.
New Bike or Upgrade?
Question: @dazzer20 asks in the 29'ers Forum: I'm looking for advice on what is best to do - upgrade or buy a new bike? I have a Felt Nine 60, 2014 29er MTB. The frame is still in relatively good condition minus a few marks and dings, I did recently upgrade the drivetrain to NX Egale 12, but now my front suspension has gone. I could get an upgraded fork but I would need to buy a new front wheel for the dropouts to fit...Something to also consider is I am in the UK and I am not hopeful to be able to get a new bike at this time because of covid as there seems to be a shortage from the shops online and I would need an XL or XXL frame size. I would probably spend up to £1000 for just the front suspension if I were to purchase that.
| It's a hard time to be in the predicament that you're in. Bikes and parts can be challenging to come by right now worldwide and your location certainly isn't helping you. If I were in your shoes, I'd see if you could get your fork rebuilt and sit tight with what you have. New seals and even bushings could make it feel a lot better. If it's beyond repair, I'd try to find a used fork and wheel to tide you over until later in the year. If you can get what you have running long enough to give you some time and you keep your eyes open, I'm betting you can find a new or used bike, in good shape, that'll be a little more up to speed. Especially since you just put a new drivetrain on. While there's nothing wrong with your 2014 model bike (that I know of, other than the fork), a newer bike is going to give you more longevity, better compatibility with modern parts, and probably a little more fun on the trails in years to come. It'll be easier to maintain and you won't have to worry about it working on a day-to-day basis if you keep it in good shape. Good luck in your search! |
Sometimes, fresh seals and grease will keep that old fork going for miles and miles.
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Must Read This Week
Trump lost !!!!!!!
If you believe everything you see or hear on the news good luck lol
Is that you, Agent Smith?!
Ok so no masks please they infringe in my constitutional rights
A lot of companies have their parts made in the same factory, so the only difference is the fancy name/sticker applied and quadruple the retail value.
I've been trying a bunch of "knock off" components and so far I have nothing to complain about as far as catastrophic breakage. And, lots of "high end" parts will break. I was going through Race Face BB's every month! I recently had a pedal shear out of a Race Face Next crank. So.....no matter what it's a risk
P.S.: on DH bike already 4th season on Spank Spike ALU bar. Survived quite some crashes, not even a dent so far. Price 80$. Not a gambler
My ski coach in college had the stem on his road bike fail when he hit a pothole on a long descent. He has a good amount of metal in his spine and/or several fused vertebrae. 0/10 would not recommend increasing your chances of catastrophic component failure on a road bike.
below median intelligence?
Curious what you're on. As I see it there's 'name brand' chinese d2c carbon, which is generally high end and reliable, and then there's sketchy sh#t. I trust Tandell, Nextie, and Light Bicycle based first on reviews, then experience of mine and others.
If it's too cheap, then it's probably too cheap. A friend who should know better bought a $30 carbon bar, which promptly snapped on the trail and ended his ride far from his vehicle and luckily didn't put him in the hospital. Shit people, there are lots of affordable aluminum parts that won't break, please don't gamble with your life.
My first try with chinese carbon was with Ligh Bicycle rims on my mountain bike one year prior getting my road bike. At that time I wasn't that confident about their durability but these rims are still in perfect condition on my old bike after all this time.
The road bike gave me enough confidence to try a FS mountain bike frame. So from 2016 up to last summer I was on a IPlay IP-036 frame with carbon rims coming from Carbon Bicycle. I tried really hard to break this frame but I only was able to snap a shock bolt. I also destroyed the rear wheel at the end of the first year when a branch jumped into it and snapped 2 spokes on top of a nipple that went through the rim.
By the end of last summer I went back to an aluminium frame not because I don't trust carbon but because I prefer how it feels on the trail. I also wanted a bit more travel and the RSD Wildcat v2 frame was ticking all the boxes for me.
If you approximate a bar as a perfect spring (it's not), the peak force will be the same regardless of the velocity of impact, just the amount of deflection will change.
If you approximate the bar as a rigid body, the peak force of a dynamic impact will also be the same regardless of the mass or velocity - infinite.
Reality will be somewhere between the two, but much closer to a linear than exponential increase with velocity - particularly once you also include the suspension (fork and tire compression).
There, I fixed it for you
Another, off topic example....I wear sunglasses...a lot. My most recent pair of expensive shades(Ray Bans) fell off my pack were run over by a car. They were probably $200. I bought a pair of sunglasses on Amazon...glass lenses, polarized(Ray Bans were not polarized), spring arms...they have a lifetime warranty if anything happens. Truly, they are WAY better than the Ray Bans....they were $18!!! I've fooled friends that thought they were $100 sunglasses. I figure they were made in the same factory as the brand names. Yes...not bike parts...but you get the idea
chinertown.com/index.php/topic,2947.msg21864.html#msg21864
A) Designer sunglasses are expensive for exclusivity reasons. No one is pretending they are actually that expensive to manufacture. $400 Gregory Pecks obviously don’t actually cost $400 to make. This is not the economics or marketing of bike parts, at all. Terrible comparison.
B) You’re $18 glasses with lifetime warranty were not made in Italy by Luxottica. You can keep telling yourself (and apparently your friends) that, though.
Good point, GG, even though I disagree slightly. IME Oakleys optics are second to none, as is the high end 'feel'. They're obviously built to very high tolerances and standards. I see the appeal but the value proposition isn't there for me (and many) as I tend to be hard on sunglasses. They're a functional sports item and I'd be super pissed scratching those ....adium whatever lenses which happen regularly from biking and other outdoor activities. Nice yes. Overpriced yes. I stick to the Tifosi-ish price range for shades. Not to mention I'm wearing goggles on most rides. Ryders anti-fog clear in the darker months, Smith Squads in the sun.
A lifetime warranty for something bought from a no-name seller on Amazon is worth the paper it's written on, whether it breaks from a user error or manufacturing fault.
I used to work for a manufacturer of outdoor gear around the time in the early 2000s that they started moving most production from their own factory in Brisbane Australia to wherever [rumours had it] the production manager got the most drunk with the best adult industry service providers. I can tell you from being in charge of warranty at the company's largest retailer at the time, you only get the QC you pay for and enforce.
The trail damage they create is massively disproportionate to the enjoyment of this tiny minority. They should make efforts to find their own trails. And to be specific, i am not talking about bridleways, but hidden trails and off grid stuff. They seem a selfish, entitled bunch
FYI - i respect the horse and pass safely without grumbling.
To be fair, dogs don't have a monopoly on acting stupid on trails...
Not saying they have to bag it and take it home, but getting it off the trail into the brush would be nice.
Stop, talk, ask them what would work best, and keep the positive vibe going to keep their horses calm.
Always found them real handy for heading into the bush with a chainsaw.
Seems like its not available for general order, would love to be wrong. Love the concept!
Also, I currently live in an area where equestrians, hikers, and mountain bikers all work together to build, maintain, and lobby for trails. We still have a few conflicts here and there, but mostly live harmoniously on the same trails. I do feel like we have a lot of new riders to the trails during the pandemic and I do wonder sometimes if they just don't understand how right or way works on trails. If going by what they see, they would think that downhill riders generally get the right of way, because so many people move aside when they see them. I don't have a solution to the issue of riders bombing down multi-use trails expecting everyone to make way, but it seems to be a growing problem in the last year (at least on my local trails).
This is just a marketing internet page catering to all the covid tourists relishing in the income inequality allowing them to trust fund about during a pandemic. I’d recommend videos on vorsprungs page if you want something legitimate.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNI-sMA1q90
Who is doing that here?
Is that not the whole post listed there? I don't see anything description about the packaging, just that the item was damaged.
www.lowes.com/pd/TRUFUEL-32-oz-Pre-blended-2-cycle-Fuel/1001840686
Also, why bring a spare bar and chain when you can bring a wedge, sharpener, and (if feeling fancy) stump vise? Hit wedge(s) with back of a hatchet to get bar unstuck then can sharpen as needed with bar in the vise and a 2 in 1 sharpening tool.
Are you 100% sure the wheel can't be adapted to a thru-axle? Many 100mm and 135mm QR wheels from the last decade have 100x15mm thru-axle end-caps available. Sometimes it's just a matter of removing QR endcaps that slip inside a 15mm axle. If it can be adapter, a new thru-axle fork is well worth it. The superior handling of a more predictable front end is _huge_. Yes, it won't make you a pro overnight, maybe you won't even notice immediately, but your bike _will_ end up going more directly to where your steering intended, and that's always a good thing. It's a very good upgrade, especially with the big 29er wheels putting max leverage on those silly flexy QR drop-outs.
Mixed reviews? 4.8 out of 5, 85% 5 star, 95% 4-star or above... that doesn't sound mixed, sounds pretty good.
Why would it get a magically different score from Pinkbike readers?
We have a real world example of that in a local park. 99% of the time (or more), the trail is ridden in the downhill direction. On this trail it makes sense for downhill to have the right of way. In fact, it is rude to ride it uphill during peak hours. Pretty much everyone else must be thinking the same because so few riders attempt to climb the trail. The defacto downhill right of way hasn't seemed to caused disputes or confrontation.
Thoughts? Is this common? Unofficial downhill right-of-way trails?
www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/wedges/wedges1
Maybe I should just not chainsaw....
Yeah that would be a problem
It's not hard to make a chunk of CFRP that can hold up an average sized human, or even a large human, but it is a bit harder to consistently make a piece that can hold up to an average sized human bouncing around on it during thousands of miles of bike riding, and resist the vibrations that, while often small in overall amplitude, can have very abrupt "hits" over and over again, and resist potential impacts (to a point). Basically, your "test jig" only tested one single aspect of the bar's "strength", and while not completely useless, is far from a complete examination of the bar quality and suitability for the intended use
Western bike companies have been outsourcing carbon manufacturing in the Far East for decades for good reason: It's cheap af, and the factories know what they're doing if you're able to communicate clearly through the language barrier (e.g.: no QC unless specifically requested). They have amassed a ton of experience and expertise over the years, and there's often no difference between your average "top shelf" name brand component and what those factories are selling, apart from the name and ridiculous price differential.
Admittedly the quality control is sometimes lacking, but a quick inspection prior to installing your handlebars is all it takes, and the average Chinese factory on Aliexpress will happily send you a replacement if you received a damaged part.
If Western companies are going to be shitting all over Chinese carbon, they should look at themselves first and bring manufacturing back home.
I'm not paying a ridiculous price for a bike component when I could literally get the same (in matte black too
All jokes aside, more and more of those Chinese components are getting EU and UCI certifications, it's only a matter of time before everyone realises there's not much of a difference, and the prices of Chinese carbon will skyrocket. Then our Western companies will have to bring manufacturing back home, with no expertise, and we will in turn become the laughing stock of the bike manufacturing world. All hail China
"and there's often no difference between your average "top shelf" name brand component and what those factories are selling" ...yes there is. Brands are always risking their name and that's why people believe in brands. And that's why you'll on average get better quality with branded parts.
"I'm not paying a ridiculous price for a bike component.........made by the same factory that made the name brand component." Well quite a common thing is that these are parts that have not passed QC or are run in a different way. Even with different layups etc. only using the same mold. ...so again, chances are you are not buying the same thing for 20x less.
I recommend this video (and channel): www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnPY0hMs_8
Looking at one of the more known Chinese manufacturers - carbon bar 40$ + shipping. Looking at Nukeproof carbon bar - 105$. Aprox. 50$ more expensive. Sold.
There is always risk of failure vs cost. In MTB handlebar world 50$ savings vs missing teeth/crashed head is a no brainer for most people. Of course there are always people willing to risk more just to get some savings...its just % of chance game - with known brand and their QC in general you have less chance of catastrophic failure. Some like to gamble more, some less. Good luck