Contrary to the sign, trailwork is not in progress on US Federal lands due to the government shutdown.
The United States government has currently been partially shutdown for just over a month. At 32 days and counting, all non-essential government personnel are essentially placed on leave, and those who are essential are working without being paid.
The shutdown occurred when an agreement couldn't be reached over President Trump's proposed 5.7 billion dollar wall on the border of the US and Mexico. Political beliefs and arguments aside, the shutdown is now the longest in United States history and is directly causing hardships for thousands of people.
What's in it for the trails?What does this mean for us, as mountain bikers? At first, it just seems that on Federal lands, some campgrounds and roads may be closed and there won't be quite as many rangers around, but there's more to it than that. For professional trail builders and volunteers alike things are on hold until an agreement is reached in Washington.
I reached out to Mike Thomas, owner of Terra Tek Trails, a trail building, consulting, and design company based in Boone, NC, to see how the shutdown was impacting him and other trailbuilders. Thomas not only builds mountain bike trails but hiking and multi-use trails. He has over a decade of experience in working with the US Forest Service on various projects.
Mike said, "The shutdown is impacting me a lot. I haven't been able to get work that I have done for the USFS inspected, and design jobs I have lined up are now on hold with the Forest Service until the shutdown ends. Some invoices are still being processed, and I'm getting paid for now on work I've completed, so that's good, and I'm staying busy otherwise."
I asked how much work this was leaving on the table for trailbuilders in the area. Thomas replied, "It's hard to say... If the shutdown wasn’t happening, we would have more jobs to bid on and everything is just backing up now. We’ve been waiting on another round of bids to come out from the Forest Service for a while now."
| This shutdown is going to have some long lasting impacts for trail systems and trail users on Federal lands, especially mountain bikers.—Mike Thomas, Owner of Terra Tek Trails |
While some trail problems are easily solved, larger scale trail troubles such as washouts and major storm downfall take major volunteer efforts or professional trail crews.
"It's also holding up future trail work because we have multiple trail flaglines on the ground waiting for NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act) studies to be completed, and those trails can’t come out to bid until that has been done. I personally have one major project that's been years in the making in this situation in Western North Carolina. For NEPA, the proposed flag lines must be checked off by all of the "ologists" - biologists, archeologists, etc. and none of that happens with the government shutdown."
"With the work getting further and further behind, the impacts are compounding. It's going to have some long lasting impacts for trail systems and trail users on Federal lands, especially mountain bikers, just in adding to what was already a huge backlog of work that needed to be done to keep trails open and rideable."
No Volunteers AllowedWhile it may be no big deal that new trails aren't being built to some, volunteer groups aren't able to work in any official capacity either. Organized work days on USFS and other government property are on hold.
Matthew Leach, President of Pisgah Area SORBA - the group responsible for volunteer trail maintenance and more in Pisgah National Forest near Asheville, NC said, "In response to the government shutdown, all user groups working with the Pisgah Ranger District have been asked to not conduct any volunteer work within the forest until the shutdown is ended. This is in support of the Sponsored Volunteer Agreement each user group has with the Pisgah Ranger District. If a volunteer were to be injured working in the forest during the shutdown worker compensation will not be available. Additionally, western North Carolina has been hit hard with snow, ice, and heavy rain which has left the trail systems littered with limbs and storm debris. This debris will remain in place until the shutdown is over and the Pisgah Ranger District and its user groups can begin the lengthy cleanup."
This is just one example of what is happening across the country on federal lands in regards to trail systems.
What does all of that mean for us as riders? Well, trails don't build and maintain themselves, and if the government shutdown continues, trail shutdowns on Federal lands could follow suit. Historically, the government's quickest way to fix a damaged trail when there's no money to be had or it's beyond reasonable repair is to simply shut it down, sending it back to nature.
Careful. People don’t like the truth.
1. Dems have voted for increased border security every year, this funding exploding since Obama took office. What Trump is demanding is a starter package to expand the wall which all evidence shows will do nothing to reduce illegal immigrants, stemming the flow of drug smuggling and reducing the entry of potential terrorists because all of these take place at ports of entry. This is the issue, you and other Trump supporters automatically associate an extended wall with border security which is completely false.
2. It was a 100-0 vote in the Senate in favor of the last spending bill which included more funding for border security but no funding for Trump's wall extension. This was only denied by Trump once Fox News and other far-right pundits told him not to back down. Trump gave Mitch and other GOPers a promise he would sign the bill before this call-out happened. Its a fact that Trump only gets his information from television, mainly Fox News. He has on multiple occasions proudly stated he doesn't use the internet and doesn't like to read.
3. Trump's promise was to have Mexico foot the bill, not the American taxpayer. On multiple occasions he stated he would have Mexico make a one-time payment, in the form of cash or check, to fund this wall extension.
4. Trump on multiple occasions stated a shut down is because of the President's lack of leadership and also stated this current shutdown was his and his only. He stated he would not blame anyone else.... which he ended up doing a couple days later.
If you're stupid enough to vote someone who is so willing to hold your government hostage over broken promises that have no basis in reality, then that's your prerogative but you're only hurting your fellow Americans and infrastructure.
Trump has and will always be a conman. Its OK if you got conned, but you look pathetic burying your head in the sand and denying everything that's going on.
Two weeks ago when confronted by WCBS about the hypocrisy, Schumer stated, "they're different. A fence works, a wall doesn't."
So if you're going to express your thoughts on a public forum please get your head out of your ass to see what's really going on. Because in Canada you know what they do to migrants? Send them back to the U.S.
www.politifact.com/facebook-fact-checks/statements/2018/dec/20/blog-posting/meme-mischaracterizes-chuck-schumers-record-border
"So if you're going to express your thoughts on a public forum please get your head out of your ass to see what's really going on"
It's just all part of this little d democracy or what's left of Representative gov.
Mtb trails-probably not as important as funding the war vs illegal immigration.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonexaminer.com/2013-all-senate-dems-voted-to-build-border-fence-kill-visa-lottery-end-chain-migration%3f_amp=true
www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/06/20/senators-reach-deal-on-border-security-proposals/?utm_term=.8ca44daff3d5
The overwhelming opinion of people working on the border is that a wall will not solve anything. More technology and more bodies will help. Not a stupid wall that is impossible to build. Actual estimates for the cost to build the wall go as high as 70 billion, and that doesn't include annual maintenance costs.
#no dig no ride
But it does affect 800,000 federal workers who are about to have their second pay period with no money.
How about you refute any of the facts I've provided using Trump's own words instead of throwing a temper tantrum about unrelated things?
This is the common tactic among Trump supporters. They cannot defend Trump's blatant lies so they instead try to detail the conversation by acting the victim or using "whataboutisms". I can't believe this is 30% of Americans....
Are illegal immigrants stealing your jobs? Noooo unless your planning on picking tomatoes landscaping and doing a host of other low paying back breaking work. Sorry there a million other problems in this country and the world besides illegal immigration. Hell if trump wants his wall so bad why doesn’t he pay for it. Isn’t he loaded out the ass? O wait we are going to have to pay for it as taxpayers go figure. I’d rather them fix all the goddamn potholes on our city street than build a damn wall you can climb over or dig under anyway!
And Im gonna flat out call your bullshit on "which all evidence shows will do nothing to reduce illegal immigrants, stemming the flow of drug smuggling and reducing the entry of potential terrorists because all of these take place at ports of entry"
that is bullshit. Your MSM is only interviewing points of view to fit their age
Besides the liberals would bitch to bring it back once the shoe is on the other foot.
Anyone here can google the facts that most illegal immigrants are here on overstayed visas (including Trump's grandpa LOL), and most drugs and potential terrorist come through ports of entry. You claim this is BS and yet provide no legit sources to state otherwise.
You're entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
George Bush Jr. and Trump were two of the most recent presidents who won despite lacking the popular vote, meaning the U.S. has overwhelmingly voted "liberal" for the past 6 out of 7 presidential elections.
Yeah, repping the people alright... just certain kinds of people....
And @scott-townes you pinkbike troll, I live couple hundred miles from the border. "Googling" something for facts is about as reliable as getting your news on facebook. I cant believe you would even cite google as a source for facts.Seriously, ask a border agent. Dem or Rep. Youll hear an entire different story than your google facts.
Try to get your ass into Canada or New Zealand. They wont even let you visit if you gone to jail! But you progressives want open borders.
I am so tired of rural conservatives whining about not having a voice. BOO HOO! Guess what, when the times changed the rest of the country adapted and moved on. If you no longer have a marketable skill to offer the economy in your town then guess what, time to learn something new! Liberals aren't the reason coal miners are losing jobs, more cost effective methods of power production are. 2018 saw a RECORD number of coal fired plants close. Trump sure came through on his promise to make coal great again. And all that deregulation has led to sharp increases in black lung disease, a very preventable and well-known problem. Same with farming. New technology means fewer people are needed to produce an equivalent amount of food. Taxpayers are already subsidizing farmers, man is it a kick in the nuts when those same farmers point their fingers at inner-city people accusing them of looking for "handouts".
Maybe you would have more of a voice if you used a voice of reason.
Also to compare the immigration system now as opposed to 40 years ago is absurd. Its a broken system now, that's all that matters and a silly wall expansion will do nothing to curb this issue.
Just the same as you won't find many conservatives that are not against companies employing illegals. I own a business and employ people, I for one would be thrilled if they jailed people for employing illegals. I have many conservative friends who are business owners and we all feel the same way, sure some big companies hiring a lot of them make for good talking points but for the majority number of business that is just not true.
Personally, I'm always stoked when they shutdown the government. I just wish they'd shutdown the ATF, the DEA, all of the defense contractors (maybe put a pause on bombing kids in foreign countries), the welfare programs, etc, before they shutdown the parks.
I admit I am a bit confused as to why so many people are fixated on a physical barrier as opposed to looking at the best, most cost-effective way to control the border. Secure borders are something I think the vast majority of the country wants, myself included.
Neither the date, nor amount in this match what you're saying, so maybe this is not it the same bill – in which case, my bad, and I'm sorry for calling you out. Cheers!
Now that being said, what Trump has succeeded in doing is dividing this country more than I have ever seen in my adult life. His rhetoric makes us weaker as a country on the simple premise of, "United we stand divided we fall".
Word of advise for anyone on here that has children or is considering...forget your political party, your religion, your preferred news source for a second...look around you. Think about the country/ planet you are leaving behind for the future generations. Is the current way of doing sustainable? The division in the country, the crazy weather patterns and gradual climate (not weather) changing, the cost of healthcare in this country, the stagnant wages vs. Inflation? F this wall...there are bigger problems that need to be addressed for the sake of our future generations.
There has been no national policy that has benefited anyone, as he has just spurred controversy and divided our country. The reduction of protected lands is proof that Trump has sent our nation into a downward spiral. Furthermore, there are people who think that because our president is a bigot with no filter, they are entitled to do the same, and it is destroying our country. If Trump really isn't running for re-election, I feel bad for our next president who will have to pick up the disheveled pieces of what was formerly known as the United States of America.
Also, if we simply taxed repatriations by illegal mexican immigrants, we could more than pay for the wall in a relatively short period of time.
You need to realize that Trump supporters are not blind to his exaggerations. Most of us knew that when he said Mexico would pay for it, that was a little far fetched. But a wall is important, and the wall itself was enough to generate massive support across the country. How it is paid for, we can figure out. It's not just Trump that wants a wall, it's the American people.
Also, you should do some research on Israel's use of walls to prevent illegal immigration. Israel and many other countries have been using walls for a long time, because they work. And don't forget the Great Wall of China. Walls work; they've always worked, and they will probably always work, until people can figure out how to fly or jump and climb like spiderman.
If walls don't work, than why do we have walls around our homes, schools, communities, etc.?
The democrats are so dead set on destroying Trump, being offended by everything, pushing diversity instead of competance, and ignoring facts, that they are willing to do and say anything to get what they want. They are like a bunch of spoiled kids, and they are being exposed for it.
And the facts are, the Great Wall of China was a failure.
www.nationalgeographic.com/archaeology-and-history/magazine/2016/03-04/the-great-wall-of-china
"The barrier’s military effectiveness, however, is somewhat harder to assess. China’s northern border continued to suffer a very large number of attacks."
"Chinese troops along the wall also had a great deal of friendly contact with the nomads. In spite of opposition from their superiors, Chinese border guards often traded with their enemies. In extreme situations, soldiers even openly colluded with them."
The Berlin wall? Failure.
How about prisons? They're surrounded by walls and fencing and yet cellphones and drugs are easily smuggled in.
Why are you ignoring the facts that state most illegal immigrants are overstayed visas (something a wall extension will do nothing to prevent), and that a majority of drugs are smuggled in through ports of entry?
"If walls don't work, than why do we have walls around our homes, schools, communities, etc.? "
LOL where do you live where the homes, schools and the entire community is surrounded by big walls? You're flat out lying. There's also zero evidence showing a wall around a house or school makes it less likely to be broken into or vandalized.
Thank you for showing the rest of the world that Trump supporters really are that ignorant.
www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/new-mexico-ranchers-frustrated-with-situation-along-us-mexico-border/5220568/?cat=500
there you go mr google-facts. theres a story from today, from a left leaning station.
www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/us/border-wall-crisis-mexico-usa.html
www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article152402734.html
www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-roma-texas-wall
OOOOH SCARRYYY
Any facts to back up this claim?
Now please downvote this to silence the voice of anyone who doesn't agree with the cultural movement to hate one person and blame him for everything that's wrong in a whole country.
Is there an immediate impact? No, but it could shape mountain biking here for the next 20+ years.
Abuse of land does not equate to WDA's point. Trails existed before the first flag was hung above the roofline of the 13 colonies, government is not a prerequisite to trail maintenance or building. I understand that the federal government's payments may be furloughed and that presents a problem for cash strapped trail organizations. Each will have to figure out what is the best use of their time. At the very least it's winter and not springtime!
YOU KIDS AND YOUR KIDS WILL NEED TO TURN THIS GREED-DRIVEN MESS AROUND!
The only person dumber than a Trumper is a libertarian.
Trump for Prison 2020 - mark my words. Crack a brew, it's almost Mueller Time!
I hadn't heard of this before..........
Top definition
Trump Derangement Syndrome
The latest attempt by the alt-right to demonise anybody who thinks that maybe putting a reality TV star who's declared bankruptcy six times in charge of the country might not have been the best idea.
"So what if Trump only told the complete truth throughout 4% of his campaign, and had to settle out of court for that fraud trial, and that he reacts like a spoilt brat on Twitter to any kind of criticism? Geez, you libtard SJW snowflakes just have accept democracy won and stop exercising your right to free speech! You're so negative with your Trump Derangement Syndrome!"
#trump#strawman argument
HILLARY IS A TERRORIST
@danielsapp : hold my beer.
Consider my comment poking fun at the commenters, not the moderators.
In all seriousness, Pinkbike has never tried to sensationalize political issues to boost numbers. You're totally right; this is an important story that needs to be shared, it's just funny how certain topics bring out the keyboard warriors.
Thanks for all that delicious maple syrup at least!
www.mediatrainingtoronto.com/blog/2013/6/29/50-great-inventions-canada-gave-the-world
Also Clinton won the election.
I'd love to hear how Hillary "won" the election too.... Just drop a few F-bombs, that'll clear that up as well right?
This is true all across the world.
Why do we NEED a government this freaking large?
This is NOT a politically biased idea.
We're nannied and babied every day.
This is a sad place to be.
Trail building projects (especially Federal ones) have such a loooooong timeline I cannot see how 30 days can have such huge impact, especially during the winter.
Second, you're interviewing a private contractor. I wish you had directly spoken with recreational officers for national forest districts.
Is the shutdown impacting planning: possibly yes. But that is not what your headline says.
I feel like someone knew a bro and threw together a article based on a headline you already had. Do better.
I did speak directly with recreational officers and managers. No one is allowed to comment or will comment on anything happening, even bros on the Fed payroll. The response is, "I can’t answer any questions about the shutdown effects. All media inquiries go to the Washington Office........" (which is non-responsive.)
The shutdown is definitely impacting planning and also work in progress along with everything that goes with it. Bidding and working with the USFS on trails is a complex and dynamic process. Construction, volunteer work, and ongoing upkeep are all on hold, as written.
It can, and is, having an impact on trail projects because funding is tied up, the people on the ground aren't getting paid to do the work. That includes the trail builder, the FS employee whose project it is, the volunteer/non profit agencies that lend their time and match funding and the biologists, archaeologists and geologists who sign off a new trail corridor or reroute.
The Fed works with the state forest service entities and delegates and defers these projects to them. It's less bureaucratic this way and is actually a better use of time and dollars.
Also, even if it were necessary to interview a "recreational officer," whatever that is, those folks are not in the office, as they are non-essential personnel. If Daniel had attempted to reach out to these people he would been hit with an automated out of office response.
Don't insult the mans work, it's just sloppy and in poor character.
But democrats were never interested in saving money, nor looking at the big picture. A win over Trump is worth any cost, and any pain inflicted on those under them.
Let that one sink in for a moment.
Does any of what you just wrote refute the fact that the democratic refusal to allow for additional border wall construction funds will end up costing us more than if they’d just gone along with it in the first place?
Half this bs would go away if we'd just legalize weed and grow it here, and I don't even smoke the junk.
Costs of a wall, or fence or whatever. Remember those steel tariffs? Price of steel is way up. Not using the cheap stuff if you want a strong wall/fence that won't fall apart in 3 years.
Upkeep. Everything I've read says the upkeep will cost more than the wall in 7 years (on the short side) to 15 years (on the long side). It's a government job, so really it's 3 or 4 years.
If Texas, New Mexico and Arizona need it so bad, why don't they pay for it? I live in New England now (formally Arizona when things were much worse) and it does nothing for me. Coastal economies yet again paying for everything the poor states can't pay for themselves.
The only crisis in the entire immigration system right now is the 3 year backlog this government shutdown has created. Anyone who's case was up has been put to the back of the line. Overstayed visas are a bigger problem than illegal migrants. Been that way for quite some time now.
Listen buddy, I got mountain biking to do, so I ain’t going to do all your research. Do some yourself, get educated. Even if you still disagree at least you won’t be ignorant. So go do some research, or don’t try to sound knowledgeable.
Good day mate!
Walls don't work. China, the Germanies, Israel, or here. Walls are like bicycle locks, they keep the honest people honest and make you feel better.
Cracking down on visas. What do you think some of Trump's proposals have included? Yup. He wants more judges. We need them, I really don't care. Again, he had two years, he blew it on taxes. You know, giving away all that income that would've paid for this stuff. It's a problem of his own making, to satisfy the guys that got him there, so as to whip "his base" into a fury to keep that election traction going and get re-elected. He knows that his base isn't really going to care that's what the reality is. No different than Fox not reporting at nearly the same rate on the migrant caravan of the 2018 midterm elections. It's a distraction to keep your eyes off the fact he hasn't really accomplished anything significant for most of his voters.
Don't be a sucker, see what's going on and why someone would benefit from it, and stop taking editors opinions as facts.
I'd love to hear your explanation of the last few economic downturns that always seem to happen while there's a Republican president, and why it's not because of the following Democrat that things got better.
(And I’m not admitting defeat, just way better things to do with my life.)
Everything taxes pay for could be funded privately. Government should only act as the referee of society, and never be a player. If you removed the governmental costs of rearranging the economy, manipulating the free market, legislating morality, and helping special interests groups you would not need to forcibly take money from those that have earned it.
2) no central authority in history survives without it. in one form or another taxation pays for the central authority. The state can then have a leader who's role is to govern and not provide means. the supporting military rank who when paid by the state do not have to be in the field working to provide necessities. the beurocracy and so on in the pyramid of hierarchy follow until we get to workers of resources who provide the means but not the governance. the division of labour is based on this surplus of resources which is managed and taxed aka reallocated by central planners for a greater objective and goal besides subsistence. civilizations grow to a point and I mean grow like beyond 200 people where even primitive forms of taxation occur and you see civil and social evolution occur. you'll note a lot of this was learned from the bronze age collapse about 2500 years ago....shit I tried to hard to keep it to bike content.
If the 200 people all voluntarily enter into an agreement to fund something they believe needs to be funded that is fine and they all have the individual rights to make that choice. When the government gives you the choice of them taking 40% of your money or you going to jail then there is a problem.
@Explodo: Excessive government is a symptom of human greed. Throughout history income tax was eliminated after it was no longer needed because the war it was funding was over. This eventually stopped happening because of human (governmental) greed.
Taxes paying for everything is maybe the most inefficient method possible. With politicians dipping their finger in everything. Not to mention that the same said taxes also pay for war after war, most of them being unjustified. I'm no hippy, but what this country has been doing for decades is just not right. Can't do much about it when our money is taken by force by a government with bigger guns than us, figuratively and literally.
Cheers Waki! - P.S. What's your Pole Position, or position on Pole geometry?
I've been using income tax as an example, and also because its the most egregious form of taxation. But all other taxes are unnecessary and a form of theft as well. All of the primary functions of government could be funded without taxes of any kind. And I know, it could be argued that tariffs and duties are a form of tax. However, it is different in that it is not the government directly taking money from their own citizens with the threat of violence. I do agree, government is necessary for the functioning of society but it has become grossly over-sized and incompetent. Civil societies that funded their government without taxing their own citizens occurred in North America prior to the world wars.
@boxxerace: Agreed.
Sorry I thought we were discussing taxes in general paying for everything or not paying. So to defend taxes, yes they have in one form or another always existed. Indirectly you tax trade sure but since you like american history since the 19th century there have been taxes, both flat and progressive, on income i.e. Revenue Act of 1861 and 1862 signed by a republican president.
Let us address the example of a small band of ideal citizens. These 200 people, again any larger and you run into fractured tribalism, problems of unfamiliarity breading mistrust and the need for external cohesive forces. These 200 have a productive lot of land. But if they all work the land who is the accountant to tabulate losses or income? Who are the merchants? Who polices the state? Well we police ourselves says the ideal man. Fair enough but who protects the ideal man with his nice isolationist policies? Who protects the world from the ideal man for that matter? Well our military will do it. Fair dinkum. Now how many workers left outside of these roles do you have and how far away are they from their plots? Well we live close like any protoagrarian society so no need for expensive central government products like infrastructure but unlike protoagros we are extremely efficient with technology...oh wait. Yes you need a whole new level of society to develop that and for that you need the idle educated classes to do it and you need to pay them. Well we go to banks for loans to fund man powered labour or buy the means of production. Oh boy mercantilism and modern banking. Can we skip that lesson please, its a long one and the tax thing is making me write an essay already. So back from the means of production to the taxes. We use indirect taxes. Fine, fine, fine. Tax trade but that alone would not be enough to sustain you. The revenue you seek is beyond that and without unequal power dynamics to support it other nations would refuse to barter or go to war with you. Then you would war with others to loot and gain territory to have slave labour as a revenue and tax outside lands. Use outside lands to makes the means and tax trade of those resources as well. Oh this sounds like Rome. Yes indeed a very fine form of republicanism but taxes it has nonetheless. As an american I thought you would like Roman republicanism as an example although there are others.
The size and scale of nations is also beyond such a restrictive definition of governance. Private citizenry cannot fund on the scale needed. Defence of a nation? Do you realize how much defence expenditures cost compared to duty/tariff revenue of the US? The profit is more in refined good vs raw as well if you want nations to make money. Enlightenment has come with some good ideals about indirect benefits of societal well being. That, I believe is the rub. Taxes sure but the direction of social welfare and greater shared morals on deservedness of the benefits from a society vs. functionality I believe is what gets your goat.
One more thing then I'm out. There is parabolic shape to that relationship between money and happiness, more from you does not necessarily mean less for you. Happy shredding friends.
Things that should be altruist: healthcare, education, policing, lawmaking...benefiting society as a whole should be out of the free market who would turn a profit from vulnerable populations because...free market is there to make a profit not benefit people out social wellfare. If you want examples of how not to incarcerate people or provide healthcare or even educate look no further my free market wheeling friend. Call me a socialist but I like it.
If it's fine with you I'm just going to skip over the "200 people" analogy as it is starting to drift in to whataboutism and an endless stream of rhetorical questions. I'd rather stick to the realities of modern society.
Private citizenry can indeed fund large scale projects if those citizen believe it is important to them. For example: 300,000 people raised $20,000,000 for a border wall in the US. (please don't take this out of context and claim I am pro-wall). This was all voluntary on the part of this individuals, no governmental gun to their head.
No, I am not advocating for slavery - just to clarify that point you're making.
If the defense budget is too big to fund without taxation, then it's just that - too big. The US military is not involved in self defense, it is involved in "proactive defense" (invasions). @boxxerace made this point very well. Even with all that said defense/homeland security is only 16% of the federal budget in the US. Things that you deem to be necessary like education (3%) and transportation (4%) are very small slivers of the federal budget. In my opinion things like that fall outside of what the government should be responsible for. But even if they were to be under the governmental umbrella, they could still be funded without taxation. It's the bloated bureaucracy, over-sized military, and social security that are funded through taxes, all of which are not necessary.
I believe that involuntary taxation is immoral. I believe less taxes and more freedom for individuals will lead to a more beneficial and productive society. I also believe mountain bikes are fun.
@ kookseverywhere:
I'm generally as free-market and libertarian minded as they come, like Explodo above gets at, the free market libertarian paradise is as much fantasy as a socialist utopia. Works perfectly and magically in theory but is utterly absurd in practice. Least of all because not everyone agrees on societal structures and how society works as it is, let alone in such extreme cases.
The biggest problem with market theory are the core assumptions themselves which don't always hold. Ie, perfectly rational people making economically rational decisions, the availability of information and knowledge, the need for a level playing field, absence of market power and need for perfect competition, transactions occurring at arm's length etc etc etc.
People are political and emotional beings that only act in a somewhat rational manner, are more rational in some matters and totally irrational in others. Information is not fully available and often has massive and even prohibitive costs to acquire, the playing field is not level, market participants often have unequal bargaining power and competition itself leads to the elimination of this critical market functioning requirement, transactions are often highly political and conflicts of interest frequently arise. The entire field of consumer behaviour, the farce of industry "self-regulation", the value of brands, the adoption of various industry licenses, standards, regulation, the need for safety standards are all examples where the free market does not necessarily lead to ideal outcomes.
The simple economic argument that if a nation can't pay for its military without taxation then it is too big is nonsense as it ignores all non-economic considerations (important ones too, like geopolitics). As is often said, the first priority of the state is security and a public good, everyone benefits from it. The state must maintain a military of sufficient size and quality to maintain that security and it must be paid for, whether people want to willingly contribute or not, because they all benefit from it.
The role of the military isn't simply to secure the nation, but also its interests. For example, patrolling key trade routes and maintaining a nation's political sphere of influence. Therefore, the military needs to be big enough to do that. That costs what it costs.
The "market" alternative to this of course, in the absence of a state military, are private armies. Not good.
I agree with you in general that governments are far too big, bureaucratic, waste tonnes of money and often get their fingers in things they shouldn't. But I also think there are very clear needs for government that produce better outcomes for society generally. Things like public education, health and transport are utterly fundamental to supporting the concept of a level playing field and equal opportunity. Whilst private options will always exist, one should not be subjected to a lifetime of poor outcomes because of the poor choices of their parents or the circumstances they're born into.
In one sentence you say the military is "only" 16% of the US budget, then a few later call it bloated? Poor deployment choices or not, the US military is unquestionably linked and intrinsic to the USA's prominent position in the world, the strength of its economy included.
@Ktron :
Alright, theres a lot in there. First off, it sounds like we agree on a lot more than we disagree. I can assure you that you are not as Libertarian as they come but sound more minded like a Canadian Libertarian like myself.
It sounds like we agree (mostly) on the responsibility of government. I could argue the healthcare bit, but that a whole other discussion that were not going to get in to. We both agree that government should act as a "referee" of society and the free market. I going to run with this analogy. Hockey games are played on an even playing field with no advantage to one team at the start, and all players are subjected to common sense rules that are enforced, not by themselves or by their opponents, but by the referee. When a player does something against the rules they get penalized, however when a team is down 5-0 the referee doesn't put 5 free goals on the board to level the playing field. And I know that can be a simplistic way of looking at it but I think we have common ground on this. I'm not saying government is unnecessary or that we should abolish it and go to this free market utopia that you claim I am advocating for. The regulation of industry in terms of things like safety and conflict of interest is absolutely necessary, and a small corporate tax (see word: small) can be a great way to fund that. But regulation and taxation should not get to the point where it interferes or burdens the free market. When a company fails it should not be bailed out by public money. Government should not be guaranteeing loans to students. Government should not tax one industry and subsidize another.
Once again the military is very necessary. However saying it "costs what it costs" to the government is pretty much giving them the green light to steal your money without any accountability. Military should 4% of GDP maximum. The police of the world should not be paid for by regular Americans or Canadians.
I called government bureaucracy bloated, not the military - however "bloated bureaucracy" is a good way to describe the military as well. My point was at its "bloated" state it is only 16%, imagine how much less money it would cost if the edges were trimmed.
So far what I've described is a modest government that could be funded without tax, possibly a small corporate tax. If anything at all, deep cuts to income and payroll tax. Public education and is a small percentage and transportation could be handled much more effectively and efficiently under the free market. Once again, that's a different conversation.
TL;DR - We pretty much agree on everything with minor differences, but people on the internet like to "discuss" (myself included).
Do any of you leave ur house unlocked and open any night when ur sleeping or when u leave for work ?!?!?
No one does and nor should the USA we need to lock it all down !!!