Review: SRAM's New Maven Brakes - The Big Brake

Feb 21, 2024 at 0:03
by Dario DiGiulio  



They say power is infinitely corrupting, but that quote doesn't really specify anything about slowing bikes down. In the name of that pursuit, SRAM pulled out all the stops to create the strongest mountain bike brake they've ever made: the Maven. It's meant to compete with all the strongest options on the market, and aims to best them. Parts of the system may look familiar, but the overall architecture has been overhauled to provide more power, resulting in a much larger overall footprint you see here.

All the power in the world is for naught if you can't control it, so the team at SRAM focused on giving the Maven a familiar lever feel and modulation characteristic.
Maven Details

• 4-piston caliper
• Tool-free lever reach adjust
• Contact adjust
• Mineral oil
• Organic or sintered pads
• HS2 or Centerline rotors
• Weight: 366 grams (actual, front caliper w/pads, hose, and lever)
• MSRP: $189-300 USD per wheel
www.sram.com

A complete front brake with pads weighs in at 366 grams, which is about 68 more than the current Code Ultimate Stealth. Pricing is higher than the Code as well, with three tier options - Ultimate, Silver, and Bronze - coming in at $300, $265, and $185 USD respectively.



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Four bolts for power.
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Pads are now only accessible from the interior of the caliper.

Details

Thanks in part to the Eddie Van Halen splatter paint job, the calipers of the Mavens really draw the eye. They're noticeably larger than just about anything else on the market, and according to SRAM that's core to their function. All that extra mass houses significantly larger pistons, with two 18mm and two 19.5mm phenolic plastic pad pushers per caliper. The hefty shape also doubles as an effective thermal mass, taking longer to heat up and cool down, and ultimately delivering more consistent performance across long descents.

The levers and SwingLink arrangement have been made to feel familiar to that of the Codes, but are optimized to work with the increased power and rigidity of the Maven. This is apparently why we won't be seeing any carbon levers for the Maven Ultimates, as those sported by the current Code Ultimates are too flexible to provide the feel they wanted out of the new brakes. You'll see cast aluminum levers on both the Ultimate and Silver models, and a stamped aluminum variant on the Bronzes.

The Mavens sport a new pad shape - dubbed the XL - which come in two compounds that Code users will find familiar. The organic option is meant to provide a stronger initial bite and quieter performance, while the sintered offers better heat resistance and better wet weather stopping power. While I found myself exclusively using the sintered pads in Codes, I've gotten along well with both compound options on the Mavens, regardless of weather conditions. More on that later in the ride impressions.

One key detail to the Maven system is hidden from view, and that's the fluid within them. SRAM has consistently used DOT fluid in their brakes, with the exception of the DB8, but the Mavens are the first flagship brake to sport mineral oil as the hydraulic of choice. The explanation behind the change is fairly simple: they found it was the better of the two options when it came to achieving the performance and durability they were looking for in their strongest brake yet. With a service life twice that of the already robust Codes, that's a hard point to argue with.

Installation and bleeding follow similar procedures to the Code, with the notable exception of the fluid used. SRAM is very firm about the specific fluid used in the bleed, and insist that people only service the Mavens with Maxima Mineral Brake Fluid, to avoid any risk of damaging the seals.

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Beefed-up pads for the Mavens.

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Two new post mount adapters, no more bolt sandwich.
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Mineral oil is now standard on the Mavens.


Power and Tuning

SRAM set their sights high and made the strongest brake they could, then provisioned for people to de-tune the system to make that power more usable and controllable. There are a few key numbers associated with the changes you can make to the system, and instead of gaming out the myriad options you could achieve, I'll just list those notable changes here. As a baseline, SRAM recommends starting with the smallest rotor your bike can fit, and scaling up from there as need be.

• Each jump in rotor size (i.e. 180 to 200mm) increases the mechanical advantage by 14%

• HS2 rotors provide 7% more power than Centerlines
• Centerline is 10 to 30 grams lighter for a given size
• HS2 rotors have better heat management

• Mavens produce nearly 50% more power than Codes, so plan accordingly
• Mavens require 32% less force at the lever to achieve the same braking power

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A familiar lever assembly.
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Still featuring SwingLink.
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Same clamp, different bleed screw.


Performance

Again, there are three trim options available for the Mavens, but the highest tier does have a special limited run in the colorway you see here (insert TV ad guy hand wave). These hot red calipers are only available in the limited-edition Maven Expert kit, which includes a pair of brakes, a bleed kit, extra brake pads, a set of various rotor sizes, the required mounting brackets, and a Pro bleed kit. That kit retails for $600, and strikes me as a pretty solid deal if you're trying to fully buy into the system. That said, the lower price brake tiers offer the same power and ergonomics, just with different finishing hardware and less adjustments as you go down the line.

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Ultimate Expert Kit, $600 USD.
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Ultimate, $300 USD per wheel.
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Silver, $265 USD per wheel.
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Bronze, $185 USD per wheel.

Performance

I've had a set of Mavens on my personal bike for a few weeks now, and have had the time to run through a wide variety of pad, rotor, and rotor size combinations to hone in on a setup I prefer. As a baseline, my preferred Code setup for big bikes is to fit just about the biggest rotor I can in, often 200r/220f or 220mm on both wheels. I'm down on 200mm rotors now, and might almost prefer if I could fit a 180mm rotor on the back end of my bike.

That's the long way of saying these brakes are immensely powerful.

I've ridden other wheel-in-the-spokes brakes, and will do some brief comparison to those later, but the short of it is the firmness and sharp feel of these is more distinct than any other brake I've ridden in recent memory. Every other massively powerful brake I've used has some spongey feel to it, while the Mavens retain a very staccato feel that doesn't sacrifice your ability to modulate the stopping power.

The lever feel and power ramp is very similar to the Code, but you have distinctly more power on tap when you reef on the lever. Swinging to the bite point isn't the lightest or smoothest on the market, with a Code-like resistance to pull through. Brakes like the Hayes Dominion, Hope Tech V4, and the TRP DHR EVO all provide lighter lever action to get into the power band.

That said, I'm still a bit on the fence about how important that is, as I never found myself getting fatigue or arm pump that can sometimes come with brakes that have too much resistance. That's likely because that bite point comes up fairly quickly, and you can hover just a touch away at all times.

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I'm currently running a bike with Saints on it, and for a brake that's had 10 years on the market they're still hugely impressive. The Mavens do feel more powerful, and are a little softer off the top than the Saints, though the difference isn't extreme when both are at operating temperature.

One of the more pleasant surprises with the Mavens has been a totally positive organic pad experience. Typically pads of that ilk - particularly on SRAM brakes - fall far below their sintered equivalent when it comes to wet weather performance, long descents, and general durability. With the Mavens, I've found just about all of those issues to be alleviated, making the organic pads a totally useful option should you be so inclined. My first ride on them even featured a 3 hour constant downpour, giving them a proper trial by fire in the wet.

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All told, I really enjoy the Mavens, and am impressed by the power. The control and brake accuracy take some getting used to, but I think one quickly would if these were your only brakes. I do wish the lever had a lighter feel to it, but plenty of people will hardly notice the pull feel unless you've recently ridden the aforementioned alternatives. I'm not in a rush to get a set to put on every bike I have that's meant to go downhill fast, but they do offer performance and reliability that I'm looking forward to using on some of the nastiest and steepest trails that have been seared into my memory.


Mike Kazimer's Ride Impressions

Like Dario, I've had these brakes on my bike for a few weeks now, and have experimented with a range of setup options. I started with 200mm HS2 rotors front and rear with metallic pads, the same setup I'd typically run with Code brakes. In that configuration, the amount of stopping power was immense, and it felt like yanking on the emergency brake in a car with bald tires on a wet road – full skids were just a small pull of the lever away.

I'm typically a fan of more rather than less stopping power, but for me this setup felt excessive – I noticed myself changing my braking habits in order to avoid grabbing too much brake. Switching to organic pads made a noticeable difference – they weren't as on / off feeling, and even in the wet they worked well, which isn't usually the case for organic pads. I also swapped to Centerline rotors, another way to 'detune' the brakes a little further. With the organic pads and those Centerline rotors the brakes still feel more powerful than Codes without being too aggressive, which was the setup I was looking for.

As Dario mentioned, the lever action isn't the lightest – Hayes, TRP, and even Shimano require less initial force at the lever to get things going. It's a fairly minor detail, but if I had to choose I'd prefer a lighter lever action, since that can help with modulation by allowing for very small changes in how far the lever is pulled.



Pros

+ Immense power
+ Easy adjustment and tuning
+ Familiar feel and modulation

Cons

- Stiffer lever pull than competing options
- All-out power will be too much for some
- Weight weenies will whine




Pinkbike's Take

bigquotesThe powerful end of the mountain brake market has some very strong contenders right now, and the SRAM Maven is a welcomed addition to that elite group. The power is remarkable, the ability to control it is there, and the ubiquitously available tuning parts mean you'll be able to hone the feel in perfectly to your liking. Dario DiGiulio







Author Info:
dariodigiulio avatar

Member since Dec 25, 2016
176 articles

663 Comments
  • 342 42
 So DOT is still the superior brake fluid, just not for low end brakes and for the really powerful high end brakes. That totally does makes sense and doesn't sound like they recently figured out that bicycle brakes work better on mineral oil and are now slowly moving their lineup to mineral oil without admitting their current DOT brakes are shit
  • 426 1
 Doesn't look like SRAM is DB8ing this anymore.
  • 8 1
 yup, my thoughts on that too. Interesting to see them moving towards mineral oil, wouldn't be surprised if they all shifted to it.
  • 86 2
 I'm prepared to believe that DOT may offer very slightly superior performance, but I personally don't want to fumble-about with it, and I suspect I am not the only one. Having a press release that says "OK OK we get it, you don't like DOT so we've caved" does not have quite the same ring to it....
  • 6 6
 I don't think we'll see them ditch DOT anytime soon but there's a large part of the market that simply won't buy something with that fluid. The DB8 didn't earn the type of praise needed to truly compete for that market share plus it sorta felt like an after though on their part. Having a whole new line with the familiar top tier "Ultimate" branding will likely convince some to give them a try.
  • 61 23
 @G-Sport: it’s got a higher boiling point and it can be heated and cooled more times before degrading. It also absorbs water so it will just rinse with soapy water. The only real advantage to mineral oil is it doesn’t strip your paint other than that dot oil all the way.
  • 49 9
 @G-Sport: Exactly. For some reason the guys that work on literally anything else in addition to bikes won't bat an eye at slipping on gloves and working with DOT fluid.

Guys that only work on bikes are very afraid of a fluid that can be wiped away with water, instead preferring to bathe their bikes in isopropyl alcohol instead.
  • 48 8
 This is just a marketing move. For most practical purposes on a bicycle, the type of brake fluid doesn’t matter at all.

But there are plenty of people who whine about „toxic“ DOT while adoring mineral oil (also „toxic“, just in slightly different ways). Switching to hydraulic oil as a medium might grab some additional sales.
  • 14 2
 @Ttimer: well, you could use trickstuff's plant-based bionol in any "mineral oil" brakes, couldn't you?
  • 36 22
 @thenotoriousmic: Shimano mineral oil and the Maxima mineral oil both exceed DOT 5.1 dry boiling point.
The real advantage is that mineral oil doesn't attract and absorb moisture from the environment straight through the hoses, increasing fluid volume and leading to internal corrosion. There's a reason why only brakes with DOT fluid require rebuilds with new seals.
  • 20 3
 @GTscoob: @thenotoriousmic: But I can leave my mineral oil open to the air and use stuff that's 2+ years old and not worry too much. I've still got old DOT4 containers in the cellar that I need to take to the recycling from a few years ago that are probably OK but I don't want to risk it having had issues with this on motorcycles and cars in the past.
  • 2 3
 @f00bar: You could, but Sram doesn’t. And neither does any large supplier of brakes, so it’s a bit of a moot point.
  • 5 6
 I actually believe DOT is more expensive to ship than mineral oil because it's a hazardous material. So - smart for brands if needing to ship brakes with fluid inside; costs less.
  • 26 31
flag Gazzamatazzzz (Feb 22, 2024 at 8:32) (Below Threshold)
 [EDIT] "The explanation behind the change is fairly simple: Shimano's brakes are way more reliable, so we're gonna do that now. Kthxbai."
  • 48 27
 I genuinely don't understand peoples gripes towards SRAM/Dot fluid brake systems. Every mineral oil product I've had has honestly sucked. The fluid gets dirty, does a terrible job of lubing the seals and pistons, and are incredibly inconsistent, after a couple rides my pistons on the one side were not contracting and it wasn't until I serviced the pistons that they actually worked properly, tho only for a week, and personally don"t care for the lever feel. SRAM brakes have been awesome for me, they stay very consistent, long service intervals, easy to bleed, lots of power, their rotors don't warp, and their reach adjust actually works.
  • 81 4
 @GTscoob: Pretty much.

For everyone else, here's how to deal with DOT fluid:

1) Wear gloves
2) Don't spill

Note that step 2 also applies to mineral oil, chain lube, and beer.
  • 1 1
 @Gazzamatazzzz: more what?

In case if anyone forgot: youtu.be/oF2vAOmplUI?feature=shared
  • 9 9
 Moving to mineral fluid doesnt mean anything about their current brakes. They made a new platform and re-evaluated what worked best for that system.
  • 15 14
 @thenotoriousmic: DOT does NOT have a higher boiling point. If it absorbs water, what does that effectively do? It LOWERS the boiling point.

epicbleedsolutions.com/blogs/articles/dot-brake-fluid-vs-mineral-oil
  • 17 9
 @RBalicious: what's the boiling point of a mineral oil system with some water in it?
  • 7 13
flag apoc99 (Feb 22, 2024 at 9:21) (Below Threshold)
 I have heard that the switch in fluid is due in part to (or mostly due to) European standards and DOT fluid being a no-go there
  • 26 1
 @bocomtb: wear gloves with mineral oil too, it's still not good to get on your skin. It's literally the same safety precautions
  • 15 1
 @apoc99: Every motor vehicle sold in the EU will use DOT for the foreseeable future. There are no plans to change that.
  • 3 3
 @PhillipJ: read the article and find out.
  • 4 5
 Mineral oil swells when it’s freezing outside.
  • 3 0
 I'd prefer SRAM moved to mineral oil, but I still like their brakes.
  • 5 3
 @succulentsausage: I suspect CODE will become a mineral oil brake. DB8 is just a Guide with mineral oil.
  • 17 6
 @RBalicious: it’s slowly lowers the boiling point over time as it absorbs moisture. Mineral oil doesn’t absorb water so if any water gets into the system it sinks to the lowest point, the calliper aka the hottest part of the brake. What’s the boiling point of water? Saturated Dot 5.1 boils at 180 degrees C.
  • 6 6
 @thenotoriousmic: there is a word in there, IF. I don't ride in down pours, and regularly maintain my kit. Most people I know rarely bleed their SRAM brakes. Hmm...
  • 5 5
 @thenotoriousmic: if you've had some jerk off at a shop set up new brakes for you and they don't wipe the dot fluid they spilled on your frame off, and it eats the paint, you are probably more likely to use mineral oil too haha.
  • 1 2
 @GTscoob: One is far worse then the other....
  • 6 0
 @mjscyclery: Wouldn't code go away? Or if they were smart just make Codes the trail brakes and ditch the guides.
  • 2 0
 @bmied31: That would be the smart move, isn't that kind of what they are doing with the 4 piston Level brakes in the new line? The guides didn't get the same update the Codes and the Levels did
  • 13 4
 @GTscoob: replacing calipers,brake lines, o and master cylinders is one of the worst jobs I’ve done on cars because DOT gets everywhere. On bikes I just don’t think DOT is necessary, in my experience bigger rotors and metallic pads matters more than fluid type for how brakes hold up to heat anyway.
  • 7 6
 @RBalicious: I haven’t bled the rear brake on my Guide RSC’s since 2019 similar story with the codes. I bleed my XT’s every 6 months or new pads whichever comes first. I live in the wettest part of England statistically. I much prefer fit and forget parts over constant maintenance and I’m not paying SRAM prices for a mineral oil brake. Luckily it’s a non issue as both Hope tech 4 E4’s / V4’s are significantly cheaper than sram in the UK and still uses for dot oil.
  • 7 0
 I have hope E4 and V4 for five years now change O-rings once and they work so nice.
  • 7 3
 @Benjustice275: Disposing of the fluid is much more of a hassle than mineral oil. I did like my codes when I had them, but I haven’t had any of the problems with my mineral oil TRPs that you’re mentioning and I don’t sweat getting the stuff on my hands or where to dispose of it.
  • 21 2
 @thenotoriousmic: you get it! DOT fluid being hydroscopic is actually a design element of the fluid....it keeps localized corrosion at bay and spreads the water throughout the fluid for consistent boiling point vs mineral oil which separates from water and you can have hot spots with boiling water + localized corrosion.
  • 5 9
flag FoxRedLabs (Feb 22, 2024 at 11:26) (Below Threshold)
 @thenotoriousmic: mineral oil isnt hydroscopic so doesnt soak up water over time like dot will so people that doent like maintenance and fluid flushing i guess would like mineral oil brakes?
  • 6 5
 @PhillipJ: its not hydroscopic so doesnt absorb water like dot fluid does
  • 4 1
 @apoc99: plenty of european vehicles have dot fluid like all our cars and motorbikes aswell as push bikes so its nothing to do with european regulations
  • 6 2
 @FoxRedLabs: well thats the reason they need bleeding so often. You need to get that moisture out that’s sunk to the pistons. Shimano brakes are really easy to bleed so it doesn’t matter that they need bleeding more often but I really can’t be arsed messing around with two syringes and a bleeding edge valve and all the other jargon whenever my brakes start feeling off. Srams bleeding process was mildly acceptable when you knew you didn’t have to do it again for at least a year.
  • 4 12
flag Skooks (Feb 22, 2024 at 12:17) (Below Threshold)
 @PhillipJ: Mineral oil doesn't absorb water, so won't change the boiling point.
  • 2 0
 @Rageingdh: This is true. I had to re-bleed my Reverb when the temperature changed alot.
  • 5 0
 @Skooks: technically true but misleading statement, while the oil itself hasn't changed boiling point since it can't absorb water any water in the line can still boil much sooner at a lower temp than the rest of the oil which is not necessarily a good thing.
  • 10 10
 DOT fluid is required for all high performance brakes. Don't blame an innocent fluid for model and brand specific problems.
  • 14 9
 @atestisthis: The boiling point isn't the problem. Mineral oil breaks down and releases gas bubbles at quite low temperatures. That's why mineral oil brakes fade with heat and constantly need bled after hard use. It is also why it is forbidden to use mineral oil in any passenger vehicle.

DOT fluid absorbing water is by design. It absorbs water, maintains a high boiling point and prevents corrosion. Any moisture which enters a mineral oil system will sit at the lowest point (caliper) and boil at 100C.
  • 6 1
 @RadBartTaylor: also any water in the line in a mineral oil system will also not behave predictably as dot will. almost just as bad as having air in the line.
  • 15 3
 I'd have made a lot of money if I could have bet on what the top post would be about. It's always annoying AF to have to scroll down pages to get past dogmatic arguments about the superiority of mineral oil, why all forks should be coil, the superiority of gearboxes, why we should have skipped past boost hub spacing, why carbon sucks, etc. And generally the whole string is, at best, tangentially related to the product (but sometimes has some gems if you can be bothered). Not an issue here, but I always feel bad when a small manufacturer launches something they've put their heart and soul into and then the whole thing devolves into and gets hijacked by shit like this.
  • 2 3
 @Ttimer: Roger that, just relaying what a head honcho at SRAM told me. It may have been a request by the Euros and not a law but it was mentioned that moving in the minreal direction was in some part due to the European market
  • 4 1
 while not a big deal to me, dot and mineral oil do have some real world differences in bikes that i can experience. dot is far faster to service for example, its easier to get air our and even dirt. if you look at the TRP bleed video you'll see they recommend to leave the lever pressed over night to get bubbles out and on some setups when things aren't perfect this is absolutely a good tip. on dot, never happens. of course on the other end dot is indeed corrosive, which can be annoying.
  • 3 0
 @FoxRedLabs: yes, so the water pools at the hot bit. So again, what's the boiling point of a mineral oil system with some water in it?
  • 4 2
 @RBalicious: if you need an article to tell you the boiling point of water you need to be questioning your entire education.
  • 2 5
 Dot eats paint it overtime destroys things. on a motor brake its okay the seals are so big it doesnt matter on little bike brakes they all get destroyed over 5 years to ten years.
  • 9 1
 @SwiftFixBike: I have tried to use DOT as a paint stripper and it didn't work. IMO this effect is massively exxagerated. My 5-10 year old DOT brake seals are still good. Around 20 years they sometimes need replaced. Just like all the automotive brakes.
  • 1 0
 @succulentsausage: damn that’s good.
  • 3 1
 @thenotoriousmic: Adding to the problem, the water will potentially cause internal corresion. Another reason cars and other vehicles used DOT fluid.

If one feels they are lacking feel or performance, try a high performance DOT fluid like Endles RF650 or Castrol SRF.
  • 3 3
 @Dougal-SC: okay my 14 years experience on what brakes last verse dont is irrelevant because you tried to use it as paint stripper.
  • 4 0
 @PhillipJ: I don't disagree the whole post was geared around finding it funny that SRAM has been telling us mineral oil sucks for years and now their premium range of brakes has mineral oil
  • 4 2
 @SwiftFixBike: your problems aren't dot fluid caused. They're brand and model specific issues. I've got 23 years on DOT fluid brakes, twice I've had brake seals leak and both brakes were over 15 years old with no fluid change in about half that. Your car and every other on the road runs dot fluid.
  • 4 0
 @bmied31: Yeah, I would vote for them to go that route too. Just shift the existing brakes down one category and either lose the Guides or the lighter Levels.
The Level seems well suited to the XC crowd though so I would imagine ditching the underperforming Guides would be the way to go.
  • 1 0
 @Ryawesomerpm: quite glad personally
  • 4 1
 @thenotoriousmic: While I agree with you in theory, I've had DOT bike brakes that would absorb water from the atmosphere, presumably through the little breather holes on the reservoirs, which increased the fluid volume enough that it felt overfilled at the lever, and would seep out said breather holes, corroding my controls on the bars. Not a big deal if you have 1 bike that you ride all the time and bleed a couple times per year, but with a bunch of bikes, some of which rarely get ridden, it is a bummer to have the brake fluid degrading significantly just sitting in the garage. You end up needing to work on the brakes before every ride on a given bike.

Regarding DOT having a higher boiling point, the great figures you see for DOT are the "Dry Boiling temp" and the aforementioned hygroscopy that was bugging me will also seriously lower the DOT fluid's boiling temp, and the better the DOT fluid the more hygroscopic it is (ie. 5.1 is the best fluid but the most vulnerable to moisture). In addition to that, while regular Mineral Oil does have a lower boiling point than the better DOT dry figures, apparently there is some black magic being done with some of the proprietary mineral oil formulas these days. Shimano has been quoting a boiling point (260c) for their mineral oil comparable to DOT 5.1 , and now I see TRP is touting even higher (270c), and that is before the DOT has absorbed any water.

Lastly, I know some people seem to think that the DOT absorbing water is a good thing as liquid water that makes it's way into the system in a mineral oil brake will not mix, sink to the bottom (caliper end) and boil at only 100c. I agree that would be a terrible situation, but I have only ever seen water end up in a hydraulic brake via hygroscopic absorption/adsorption, rather than bulk liquid water intrusion, as they are pretty well sealed. in addition, the mineral oil is hydrophobic, so it sort of forms it's own seal at the edges of all the interfaces, and thus resists capillary draw of liquid water.
  • 1 0
 @mjscyclery: it uses CODE brake pads, and has more more power than GUIDE RCS.
Signed: Owner of both systems
  • 1 2
 "Olive" oil, not absorving water, it will have the same performance for a longer time than DOT, from day 1.

It's not acid, and it's easy to work (spilts? No problem!).

Requiering new bleed system, is what makes them a PITA!
I have Shimano, Hopes, Guide, and Hayes... and now, Mineral Kit form Sram!
C'momm!
  • 1 1
 Putting aside which fluid is better, if they were DOT you could bleed them and then use the extra to try to strip that horrible paint off the calipers.
  • 6 1
 @GTscoob:

LOL this is so true. They’ll inhale isopropyl all day from bathing bikes in it but won’t touch DOT fluid or brake clean, etc. Some bicycle mechanics are hilarious.
  • 1 0
 Just wondering, does water even accelerate corrosion? I thought it were the minerals dissolved in the water which would do that (as well as dry salt disposed on your aluminum parts). But if a hydraulic system can stand mineral oil I would expect it would deal with those minerals quite nicely already. But maybe I just don't really understand what mineral oil is.

As for the discussion regarding boiling point, doesn't really make sense to me either. What matters is how much heat a system can absorb before it fails to operate. High end bicycle component manufacturers like to design their systems to critically deal with whatever they're supposed to deal with. A fluid with a higher boiling point will allow them to make a smaller system that at the end of the day performs similarly as a system designed for the same purposes but with a lower boiling point fluid. Heck, I haven't ever heard of anyone overheating a BFO brake. As a home mechanic, shelf life of the brake fluid is an important criterium for me.

TL;DR: A heavy duty bicycle brake can be used with any brake fluid, as long as it is designed for that particular brake fluid.
  • 1 1
 @Benjustice275: Exactly, this seems like another high maintenance brake that will need frequent bleeds.

If they haven't increased the amount of oil in the system and are using weepy mineral oil instead, this sounds about as well engineered as the continually failing reverb.
  • 2 3
 @PhillipJ: you're regurgitating one of SRAM's old lies about mineral oil. In a mineral brake, moisture simply doesn't enter the system. Technically, if there were trace amounts of moisture for some reason, the nylon lining of all brake hoses would absorb it, removing it from the lines. It's the same pathway that contributes to moisture absorption in DOT systems. DOT not only mixes with water, it is attracted to water. Mineral oil won't mix with water and is repelled from water. Nylon will absorb over 1% of its mass in water.
  • 1 1
 @atestisthis: I know nylon can absorb water, "technically", but what data do you have to back up claim that the nylon (if it even is nylon on ALL brake lines - I don't know) will absorb water in a brake line application? Several different types of nylon exist (I have no clue what is used in brake lines), the line presumably has sat out prior to being used on a brake system and 'saturated' to the point it cant absorb any more, fraction of micrograms it could possible absorb, localized absorption area, etc.....bold claim!
  • 2 0
 @RadBartTaylor: Ask anyone who has any dealing with manufacturing parts using nylons and they will tell you that nylon is "an absolute BUGGER" for absorbing water. Try 3D printing with it, and even with filament you just dried out it will pop and steam like a banshee. Injection moulding machines use dried pellets and have further drying systems in-line with the machine to fight it.
  • 3 1
 @thekaiser: mtb brakes are supposed to be sealed and if yours were leaking fluid then they've got big issues unrelated to fluid type. The breather ports are to the dry side of the bladder and don't allow fluid to air contact in a healthy brake.

Mineral oil breaks down and releases gas bubbles at temperatures far lower than boiling point. Turning brakes to mush. That's why it's forbidden for use in automotive and why mineral oil brakes need bled after hard use. It's also why open bath forks need air bleed valves.

Water ingress and fluid boiling are a non issue in dot brakes. Not one of the people here has boiled a dot fluid mtb brake. But gassed up mineral oil happens to every gravity rider.
  • 1 1
 @G-Sport: but nylon has different grades and I assume different water absorption rates depending on grade. If it's sat out at ambient humidity on a storage shelf for 3 month prior to use, what makes anybody think it's not already saturated to it's max? Are we even sure all hydro hose line has nylon on the inside? More questions than answers but @atestisthis made some bold claims that I am probing on.

I don't doubt issues with manuf. as you point out.
  • 2 0
 @Dougal-SC: I boiled my Hopes to the point of ZERO brake, not sure how fresh fluid was, but it was reasonably healthy stuff.

Happens all the time on my moto.
  • 1 0
 @Dbeisen: dude.....dumping it in the gravel next to my shop could not be any friggin easier!?

hard to dispose of...pffft
  • 2 2
 @Dougal-SC: you are full of it. I am a bike mechanic I work on all types of brakes every dot brake is literally trash after a decade vs mineral oil which usually are fine.
  • 2 0
 @RadBartTaylor: it's brake lines by major manufacturers that I'm aware of, for sure SRAM, Shimano, Magura.
It doesn't matter if the nylon gets saturated, because the DOT fluid will continuously pull the moisture out of the nylon. The only thing I've seen slow this process down to basically a non issue is braided steel lines. Although the liner is still nylon, the steel greatly reduces exposure to the environment, and who knows what plastic is over the steel, it may make a difference.
Anyone that's been working in bike shops has dealt with a rarely used bike with DOT brakes with pads that no longer retract. The system is suddenly over filled due to moisture absorption. Where do you think that water comes from? It used to happen all the time with Elixir brakes and their ridiculous reservoir system, but I've seen it with AXS road and Level and Guide, and Formulas (it's been a while) and old Hayes. When trying to even get the wheel to spin, I'd just crack open a bleed port. Without even pushing the pads back, the amount of fluid that squirts out is not insignificant.
  • 3 0
 Is this the line for picking your brake fluid and being a dick about it?
Why are there so many people here who do not wear gloves when working on your bikes?
Brake fluid aside, so many greases are full of PFAS chemicals, god knows what’s in chain lube. Rockshox’ dynamic seal grease literally states it under the main product branding on the front. My weldtite bike grease has teflon in it. If not wearing gloves when bleeding is your criteria for a good brake then perhaps your should have another think about “mInErAl OiL iS sAfEr” or “i PuT iT oN mY bAbY”. If something is so resistant to water then how can you wash it off and go pick them up safely? I wear gloves to protect my kids from chemicals, regardless of the task i perform on my bike. The best solvent to clean up DOT with is water, so if you still get it on yourself, you can actually wash it off. Plus there’s no smearing, no smells, and if your contaminate your pads you can quite literally boil it out/off of your pads and rotors with, you guessed it, water.
It’s not perfect but DOT exists for a reason and a lot of them are useful to mtb home mechs.
  • 1 0
 @GrouseVibez: Yes it is, fire away Smile ! As for the greases on ones bike, there are plenty of lubes available that are without PFAS though obviously you don't always know what's in the original product. I switched to GreenOil lubes quite a while ago though I admit I still use the suspension lubes as labeled by the manufacturer and I recently got myself a jar of Park Tool Polylube which turns out to not be too pretty either. Similar to electrical products which come with the RoHS certification, shouldn't there be a label too for bicycle components that come without hazardous chemicals?
  • 1 0
 @vinay: ive gone almost all non-toxic/biodegradeable with oils and greases. Bleedkit Gold brake oil is canola oil and exceeds the performance of regular mineral oil. But i guess cant put that in Maven without voiding warranty even though itd probably work fine. WPL shock fluids and grease are also plant based. Muc-off chain lube is also safe and works great. The only thing left that therres no substitute for is slick honey/slickoleum
  • 1 0
 @p1nkbike:
I can bleed the later Magura Louise in about 10 minutes, the same for new Shimano. I have not experience of TRP so cannot comment.

I simply do not believe the type of oil impacts whether you have to leave it overnight for bubbles to migrate. The volume of oil and internal diameter of the pipes is so small bubbles are unlike to migrate without use or vibration.
  • 4 0
 @vinay: I think your missing the point. The main criticism in here is you don’t want it on your skin, but you shouldn’t want any of these lubricants and fluids on your skin. If you’re not wearing gloves that’s not the DOT fluids fault. But again you can actually wash it off effectively unlike the others. However, as you asked nicely I’ll give you the pros:
- it’s easier to clean up (water)
- it’s very readily available. Hardware stores, servos, I’ve seen it in supermarkets before, auto shop and bike shops.
- it’s a standardised non proprietary product and therefore you can buy whatever and have a minimum standard ensured. If the bike shops closed then you’re all good.
We all know it’s toxic, and it might damage some finishes if you want it too, but I’ve noticed any issues I had in that regard have ceased since I stopped using contact cleaner and brake cleaner and switched to water for cleanup.
Whether one is better than the other is not something I’m qualified to determine. But for the purpose of procurement and use I think it’s better.
And also Hayes claimed that DOT was the only way to achieve the dominion lever feel and that for me is all I need to hear.
  • 2 0
 @GrouseVibez: Oh, my comment wasn't necessarily targeted at DOT fluid. You brought up other bicycle lubes and damping fluids too so that's what I was aiming at. I didn't question the reason for the use of gloves either.

Higher up in this comment thread (and I'm not going to blame you for not reading everything that closely) I mentioned that my primary reason for using mineral oil being the shelf life. I'm no pro mechanic, it'd take me ages to completely empty a bottle of DOT no matter how small. So ideally, I'd buy the smallest bottle of DOT for every single bleed and dispose of the rest of it. My first hydraulic brake was a Magura Julie as that was simply the cheapest out there and still performed nicely. Soon after I got their mini-disc brake kit and not that much later I got a 1L bottle of their Royal Blood because I thought that was clever. Needless to say despite having ridden Magura equipped brakes pretty much exclusively in the mean time (with a short stint with the first generation of Shimano Saint) I still haven't emptied that bottle. It is still good though.

So yeah, that is it really. I'm no pro mechanic bleeding several brakes every day nor am I a pro gnar athlete looking for the greatest performance out there. This is what I have and what works for me so this is what I'll keep using for as long as it works well. And no, this isn't the latest and greatest. These are Frankenbrakes of three generations of Louise and even a bit of Marta.
  • 1 0
 @atestisthis: I was poking on the part where you said "if there were trace amounts of water the nylon would absorb it".....I assume you were talking about mineral oil system and water not being a problem because the nylon would absorb it? That doesn't check out in my head....
  • 1 0
 @RadBartTaylor:
For mineral systems, water doesn't get in there, so it's a pointless hypothetical. Going down that road anyway, oil is hydrophobic. The oil would be repelling the water, and the nylon could passively absorb it.
And while I stand behind whatever else I wrote last time (without scrolling up and checking what I wrote), I will say that this statement here is what I assume would happen based on indirect knowledge of what happens in other similar situations.
  • 1 0
 @Benjustice275: I've genuinely had the opposite experience. Okay, so I haven't used a SRAM product for a good few years now, admittedly, but that's because they were so infuriatingly unreliable that I avoid anything SRAM at all costs. And I'm including their suspension in that too. Honestly, my experience with SRAM brakes has been constant bleeding and awful lifespan. Whereas Shimano have been fit-and-forget.
I'm happy to have my mind changed, but at SRAM prices (here in the UK) versus Shimano, it's unlikely I'd ever move from trusty XTs.
  • 1 2
 @Ttimer: Cars need DOT. Leg-powered bikes just don't.
  • 1 1
 @Gazzamatazzzz: agreed , pricing is just out of control , SRAM especialy, 600 quid casettes and rear mechs , 120 quid chains ?! its not just them though the price of brake pads and tyres really gets to me , its almost half the price to swap out tyres and brakes on my car than it is on my bikes
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: I know, right? I mean, to an extent, that's a separate argument (though it shouldn't be). I think if anyone on here was being entirely honest with themselves they'd admit that they've been suckered into marketing BS. We all have. The reason car parts are so much cheaper (comparatively) is because the general motoring public, on the whole, simply won't pay the sort of ridiculous prices that MTB parts ask. As long as we continue to lap up this nonsense, they'll continue to hike up prices. R&D only accounts for so much. I have an MV Agusta (1000cc Italian motorbike) that I just had fully serviced - valve timings, fork service, the lot - and it cost me LESS than I was quoted by my LBS to have a full service + suspension service on my Orbea. HOW???

Don't even get me started on derailleurs...
  • 3 0
 @Gazzamatazzzz: i think bikes seems to be the only industry where tech gets more expensive over time , the genral trend in other industries os the cost drops over time . Tyres really gets me as its expensive to try somthing knew withut knowing you will like it , then if you dont like it you have a pair of scrubbed used tyres worth f*ck all to try and sell so its hard to justify the risk of trying new tyres out
  • 1 0
 @atestisthis: it's known that mineral oil systems get water in lines too and it's from water vapor in the air - so not pointless nor hypothetical. Nylon isn't going to passively absorb that water, not logical.
  • 1 1
 @thenotoriousmic: That means your SRAM brakes have roughly the equivalent of >30% water that has absorbed in your DOT fluid. Thus your boiling point is far lower than that of any mineral oil equivalent.
  • 1 0
 @RBalicious: is that true? What is the boiling point of mineral fluid vs saturated DOT fluid?
  • 1 1
 @Dougal-SC: That's simply not true. Shimano Saints are classed as a high performance brake, especially by those who use them. It's possible to design good brakes using either fluid.
  • 3 0
 @Skooks: Shimano riders who get them hot are constantly bleeding them as the fluid gasses out and makes them spongey. Shimano uses aluminium sandwich rotors, finned brake pads and insulating pistons because they absolutely have to and it's still not enough.

Recreational riders can get away with anything. Get them hot and it all changes.
  • 1 0
 @RBalicious: No it doesn’t because of how moisture pools at the calliper in a mineral oil brake. Boiling point of dot fluid slowly lowers as it absorbs moisture. Mineral oil needs a full bleed whenever I get moisture in the brake system. Again just means I have to bleed my brake way more often without any real advantages. I’d rather use Dot have more consistent braking with way less maintenance.
  • 2 0
 @Dougal-SC: Yep. I had to rebleed my XT’s that I last bleed two weeks ago and the fluid had already started to go dark and murky.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: i use aeroshell fluid 41 its an aerospace grade mianeral oil so is controlled formula like dot fluid is, has a higher boil point than the shimano oil and never had an issue with it degrading or anything like that even after heavy alpine use , so decent mineral oils do exist
  • 1 0
 @Dougal-SC: depends what fluid you use , i use aeroshell fluid 41 its an aerospace grade mianeral oil so is controlled formula like dot fluid is, has a higher boil point than the shimano oil and never had an issue with it degrading or anything like that even after heavy alpine use , so decent mineral oils do exist
  • 1 0
 @RadBartTaylor: depends on the mineral oil used , i use aeroshell fluid 41 its an aerospace grade mianeral oil so is controlled formula like dot fluid is, has a higher boil point than the shimano oil and never had an issue with it degrading or anything like that even after heavy alpine use , so decent mineral oils do exist
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: If stated and signed in threefold, it is correct Smile .
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: what is the boiling point of the 41 vs std. mineral oil vs DOT out of curiosity?
  • 1 0
 @RadBartTaylor: its a mil spec MIL-PRF-5606J· fluid so the spec dictates that it has an operating range of -35 to +135 degrees c with a boil point greater than 280 degrees c . All fluids that meet this mil spec for aerospace have to meet these criteria to be certified for use.

Dot 5.1 has a dry boiling point of 270 degrees c but that drops to 183 degrees c once it absorbs water .

Other mineral oils can vary quite a bit depending on their composition which is why I use a defined and controlled MIL spec certified fluid that has a controlled spec.

Shimano data sheet specs the boiling point of theor fluid as greater than 200 degrees c ,

magura spec sheet claims their mineral oil has boil point of 250 degrees c

and i cant find a spec sheet for the maxima mineral oil for the new sram brakes

This variation is due to all the manufaturers having theor own fluid specs which again is why i use a defined MIL spec fuid in my brakes as its a controlled and certified spec .
hope this helps
  • 1 0
 @vinay: i dont know what that means?
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: Ah, you posted your comment in threefold or at least that's how it shows up over here. No big deal, just kidding as it is typically those big contracts which are copied in threefold. If I have to explain my joke, it probably wasn't a good one Wink .
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: interesting stuff - good data! What is the use case for the Mil Spec mineral oil? I assume it has additives to raise boiling point.....100% compatible with bike brake systems?
  • 1 0
 @vinay: oh yeah i just seen that , not sure why it did that haha
  • 2 0
 @RadBartTaylor: its used in aircraft hydraulic systems , including high pressure aircraft braking systems typiclay 3000 psi. It is used typicaly smaller or millitary aircraft , although its started to be phased out with MIL-PRF-83282 which is a synthetic alternative which is more fire resistant which is important for aircraft but not really an issue for pushbikes haha . Most commercial aircraft use a very fire restiant phosphate based hydraulic fluid which is super safe and wont ignite even when misting , its super painful if it goes in your eyes though hahah
Any MIL-PRF-5606 or MIL-PRF-83282 fluid is fully compatible with shimano and other mineral oil brakes , its probably more expensive than shimano or magura fluid but luckily for me i work in aerospace so have access to large quantites of it so have been using it for years with zero issues
  • 1 0
 @vinay: All good points mate. I totally appreciate the benefits of mineral oil, and honestly I actually think shelf life is probably the only significant differentiator for the home workshop. Perhaps I directed my frustration of community wide ignorance, regarding lack PPE when wrenching, being a valid reason to choose brakes, towards you. Soz. I started on DOT brakes for no apparent reason so here I am on DOT being a dick about it haha
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: good info mate - love hearing some good insider info and learning something new.
  • 2 0
 @FoxRedLabs: I mean why not. Worst case scenario it eats your seals and pisses all over your pads but if you’ve got shimano brakes that’s going to happen anyway so might as well enjoy the benefits in the short term. I’ll definitely give that a go. Thanks for the tip.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I've been using the aerospace graded mineral oil and Shimano brakes for years never had seal failures ever , one of my bikes has a set of slx brakes on it that I bought in 2012 and they are still going strong, guess you've had dodgy ones with seal failures?
  • 2 0
 @FoxRedLabs: I’ve only ever used Shimano fluid. I’ve just had an XT lever and calliper seals fail at the weekend, can’t complain got my moneys worth but I’ve got a box of deore and SLX callipers and levers that have all failed with less than a years worth of use. All the same issue but mainly the calliper seals on the back brake I have the biggest issue with.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: strange I've had Shimano brakes for years , I've snapped levers off in crashes etc but never had any seals fail on me in all that time ,must have got lucky I guess
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: Lucky for sure. Between my time working at manufacturers and times working at shops, leaking Shimano calipers were always way more of a problem than any other single brake. Sometimes new out of the box leaking, other times within the year. Warranty rate was so much worse than SRAM, Magura, etc. SRAM had a problem with Guide brakes, Shimano has had this problem for YEARS.

Shimano warranty supply was alright until the pandemic hit but I still consider them the least reliable brake on the market. That being said, I scored some cheap 4pot Deore brakes that are going on a cheap hardtail.
  • 1 0
 @GTscoob: ive ben running shimano brakes on all my bikes since 2010 and had a set from 2012 until it was recently stolen and ive never had a set leak in all those years of riding , pad changes hose changes fluid flushes bleeding etc so not sure why ive not had issues where you have seen so many issues with ones that you have had , maybe im just EXTREMLY lucky hahah maybe i should by a lottery ticket? haha
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs @GTscoob : This is really quite interesting. I wonder if there's some difference between Shimano Europe and Shimano NA imports? I've been riding for over 20 years, had all kinds of brake setups, and the only ones that gave me real hassle were SRAM/Avid. Magura have a no-leak guarantee from new, Hope are bullet-proof (I know some don't rate them but for me, they're the closest feel to motorbike brakes), and other than wrapping my old Kona round a tree and destroying an XT lever, I've never had a single issue with Shimano brakes. Not one. A bleed once a year, twice if I'm really caning it, and that's it. SLX and Deore the same.

Defo gonna take a look at this 41 fluid. Though I've been using Pentosin for over a decade instead of Shimano's own mineral oil, and still never had an issue with the seals or bite point.
  • 2 0
 @Gazzamatazzzz: it is a strange that people have so many different experiences with the same products . Doesn't have to be aeroshell 41 , any MIL-PRF-5606 spec fluid will be the same spec as the aeroshell 41
  • 1 2
 @FoxRedLabs: they’re just cheap which is why I still use them on my hardtail and sons bike. You can get an SLX calliper with pads for about £30 / £40 about the same I’d get new pads and seals for a set of codes but at the end of the day you get what you pay for. They need more maintenance than every other brake, they’re less reliable and out of all the big players they make the worst performing brakes but also the cheapest and easiest to bleed.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: that's not been my experience at all , all of my shimnao sets have performed flawlessly over the years and I prefer the lever feel over the one set of SRAM brakes I had for a few months that came on a complete. Lever.feel.is a personal thing though some people prefer the more modulated feel of a SRAM brake. I can't fault the performance or the reliability I've had out of all my Shimano sets over the years
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: Same here. 6 bikes in my family, all Shimano brakes. Only 'failure' was a slow leaking seal in the lever assembly on an MT501/520 brake. Otherwise all have worked perfectly for a few years, super reliable.
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: It’s not just Sram even the likes of TRP / Terktro and Hayes are putting out better performing and more reliable brakes than Shimano these days. Even when they’re not leaking and working as they should they’re not the best. The build quality isn’t great. The levers feel cheap and flimsy, the brake pads rattle inside the calliper, there’s a load of flex in the lever body itself and the famous wondering bite point issue. I and most other people wouldn’t even consider Shimano if it cost as much as the competition. It’s cheap which is why people run it.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: i was suprised by how eas the lever blade bent tbh wasnt even a big crash but liek i say performance wise ive never had an issue i found my saint and my slx or xt 4 pots to have more power than the SRAM guide ultimates that i had on my transition and the sets ive had have always been super reliable (ive gone and jinxed it now havent i ) haha . Thats just my experience though i completely accept you may have had a different experience. Brakes , like tyres and grips are a very personal thing with how riders like things to feel, ive not seen any scientific test with actual data proving which have more power , more modulation, less fade etc im sure there must be some out there though , plenty of bike nerds that would do such tests
  • 1 0
 @FoxRedLabs: Enduro mag did a test a few years ago I’ve seen another German magazine or webpage had also done a similar test this time including different pads but I had to get google to translate it from German and I’ve never been able to find it again.

There’s not a huge difference in feel between my Shimano brakes and sram brakes to be honest. I’ve always ridden Shimano brakes until recently so it’s what I’m used to. I just adjust the barrel adjuster on my lever until it feels like a Shimano brake. Same with Hopes when I used them.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: was it this test
enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy
That's got test numbers for power etc will dig into it out of interest
  • 142 0
 so the ultimate are silver, the silver are black and the bronze are gray. makes sense
  • 33 0
 Coming from the brand that normally just adds superlatives for product line differentiation. But my Super Deluxe Ultimate shock was pretty good.
  • 11 0
 @GTscoob: super duper deluxe hyper ultimate
  • 3 0
 @lenniDK: You now have to add 'Expert'
  • 10 2
 Regardless, I think we can all agree the red is the worst.
  • 13 0
 @TheR: As someone who works in the automotive industry. It is clearly very well known that if you have red calipers (whether they came like that from new or not), you have the best performing calipers.
Same principle applies to brake drums.
  • 2 0
 @gnarnaimo: What say you about yellow calipers? (Ex. Ferrari)
  • 7 0
 @therealmancub: Not sure about Ferrari, but on Porsche, yellow calipers are used to indicate carbon ceramic rotors. No bikes use carbon ceramic rotors (that I know of). So donning yellow calipers on your bike makes you a poser. While painting your calipers (or drums if you drive a 93 civic) red means you are a racer. The more you know!
  • 4 0
 @gnarnaimo: I went with yellow drums on my '96 Saturn
  • 121 8
 Sram, you make too many brakes. 4 Mavens, 3 Codes, 5 G2s, 11? Levels, and a DB8. Brakes are critical to being confident on you bike and most of your brakes feel different between models making it an annoying piece to swap out when buying a bike.
  • 26 26
 I see your point but it makes sense for OEM stuff to have loads of different options for bike companies to spec on their builds
  • 46 7
 same shit different name
  • 49 14
 @samdaman1: No it doesn't.
  • 15 5
 @DizzyNinja: it does when the production cost varies $10 and the retail cost varies $400 and you need to pay the engineers for spending 5 years to make them $10 better
  • 10 1
 @samdaman1: exactly. Unlike a lot of other industries, the OE side of the bike industry is far more lucrative than aftermarket replacement.

We're never the customers here, the bike brands are.
  • 5 2
 Will this replace the Code brake though?
  • 7 9
 It is good to have more options. They all fit specific riding styles.
  • 1 0
 @DizzyNinja: why? Genuinely interested
  • 8 4
 @samdaman1: no it doesn't what the f*ck kind of logic is that? It's worse for everyone. More confusion over compatibility, price, performance, spare parts etc etc. It's bad for consumers, it's bad for shops and mechanics.

How many different price points matter here? 3? Maybe 4 at most? Having double digit amounts of (shit) brakes is absurd.
  • 4 1
 @OneBikeStand: woah calm down I just had a loose theory I’m hardly saying it’s the cold hard truth, I just figured bike companies probably like options so that they can maximise profits, it’s not exactly a statement that deserves such a volatile response
  • 11 4
 This brake looks FUGLY AF and who is responsible for naming it, give me a Break,...Maven is such a corny name for a brake.
  • 7 0
 Hayes or Magura for me next run
  • 8 0
 @likeittacky: went to hayes after riding with magura for years. got tired of the poor quality control. magura is terrific when everything is working properly, but i would have 2 sets of mt5 working fine, 1 set of mt5 that i could never get to bleed (there was always air in the system no matter what i did), and 1 set of mt7 that was amazing when i first bought it, but then always needed constant bleeding and decontaminating (the rotors/pads/calipers). eventually figured out that the seals in the pistons were probably the culprit. trace amounts of either air would enter from the piston side and/or squirt mineral oil on the rotors/pads. i'd be totally fine after a massive decontamination of rotors and fresh bedded pads, and halfway through a ride it'd start squealing like no tomorrow. switched to dominions recently and haven't had an issue yet.
  • 3 1
 @justanotherusername: My guess is that Code will be found on Trail bikes, G2 on XC and Levels will disappear.
  • 2 0
 docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sjPSmOYbhjDBFxcvXVw1ufKfowEBu1AKh8sB6T8e24Y/edit#gid=0

Sram make all brakes different,levers had various lever ratios. Mix match any sram brake is not possible in many cases
  • 107 6
 Braking news!
  • 102 6
 Please stop.
  • 39 1
 @kkmb: dude needs to modulate.
  • 14 0
 Y’all need to pump the brakes
  • 11 3
 @kkmb: just let it go dude.
  • 7 0
 Slow your roll
  • 3 0
 this looks like bleeding edge of technology as well
  • 2 0
 Slow news, more like
  • 4 0
 I found this reply grabbing
  • 4 0
 This pun thread will stop abruptly very soon
  • 4 12
flag CSharp (Feb 22, 2024 at 8:00) (Below Threshold)
 @jesse-effing-edwards: Give the dude a brake and don't modulate with dat index finger! Mike Levy
  • 1 0
 Perilously close to locking up and losing traction on this thread. Maybe dial it back a hair.
  • 4 0
 @CSharp: stop doing that
  • 3 0
 @CSharp: You're over reaching.
  • 2 0
 Is anyone going to modulate this thread before it brakes out into a pun fest
  • 2 0
 @hldedrick: This pun has more power than I would have expected.
  • 1 0
 @hldedrick: someone is liable to wind up with arm pump if it keeps dragging.
  • 3 0
 Stop trying to pad the comments out...
  • 2 0
 @korev: it's like they are trying to brake the rim.
  • 7 0
 This joke bites
  • 10 0
 a joke of this caliper should have more upvotes
  • 5 1
 Wow, that's some piss ton of puns right there.
  • 1 0
 These comments should be modulated
  • 1 0
 i didnt expect this thread to be dragging on for such a long time
  • 2 0
 @allmountainrider81: You meant to say I should retract?
  • 119 24
 Damn those calipers are UGLY.
  • 80 4
 Have you ever seen a car with those fake Brembo brake caliper covers? That's all I can think of when looking at the Mavens.
  • 8 1
 @Brave1i1toaster: and i was trying to figure out what these brakes remind me of. You are spot on.
  • 2 1
 @Brave1i1toaster: exactly what came to mind for me when I saw the pics
  • 14 7
 UGLY is an understatement, even if these were the best performing brakes in the galaxy, I still wouldn't have them on my bike for being so hideous.
  • 5 1
 They’re so bad. Dario, can you put your de-anodization skills to work please?
  • 3 1
 Indeed! Heinous! Maven Silver, ironically, is the only caliper that isn't coloured or some silver colour and is a fully black caliper. This would be the only viable option here IMO. Black out the caliper and it'll disappear enough to not be too much of an issue.
  • 1 1
 Good candidate for that 3M Caliper Vinyl Wrap... or a rattle can.
  • 3 1
 @Brave1i1toaster: At first I honestly thought it was a picture of the prototype with a fake cover camouflaging the caliper. You are spot on!
  • 8 2
 so are the levers, that reservoir is hideous lol
  • 15 6
 I think they look mega rad. Hit that down arrow.
  • 1 0
 Agreed. But it looks like they offer less heinous versions.
  • 7 1
 the levers are kinda fugly too.
  • 3 1
 I was surprised to see 'Maven' on the reservoir not 'Avid'. The asthetics are in a different universe from the performance. That seems to be a popular strategy in automotive design and other fields these days though: Make the first generation so ugly that just the henious looks get a bunch of people talking about it, then revert to sanity for gen 2.
  • 6 0
 Polished turd
  • 3 0
 I get a old-school (early 2000) DH vibe from them because everything was so ugly. If it was ugly, it must be hardcore.
  • 1 2
 Not as ugly as a SRAM derailleur.
  • 1 0
 Edit: I see this subject has been discussed in the next thread.
  • 55 1
 I don't understand why they didn't design the other updated levers like this. Having the hoses angled towards the bars was a terrible idea that nobody likes. Having them parallel to the bars, though, now you're talking.
  • 5 7
 How did you find out what the lever looks like?!
  • 8 3
 They’re making a running change to the Codes and Levels to also have a hose parallel to the bar
  • 1 0
 It was a bad idea, and these are now parallel to the bar.
  • 13 6
 Actually bikepackers quite enjoy the stealth hoses, a lot less fuss with handlebar bags. But hey, keep your spectrum limited to your needs. Haha
  • 2 0
 Totally agree. The inward pointing brake hoses were totally absurd and didn't work at all. Parallel to the bar is good though.
  • 5 0
 @hi-dr-nick: parallel hoses accomplish the same thing without looking terrible.
  • 8 0
 @hi-dr-nick: I’d say bikepackers who use sram brakes and handlebar bags are a very small subset of buyers that probably wasn’t the target group when sram came up with the design

I blame cable tourism
  • 1 0
 Makes me wonder how well these brake master will fit for people who ride with a bit more high-rise bars and trim there bars a little shorter hence have to shift the brake master more inboard. Most brake masters I know of leave a bit of a gap and an angle between master and handlebar but these here have the master parallel to the bars. When you shift them inboard, they'd probably clash. In the image they already seem to be as close inboard as you can get them.
  • 38 0
 No such thing as too much braking power unless you don't have modulation. As a 240+ lbs rider that's used to reefing the sweet bejesus out of the Code lever on long downhills they can't come soon enough.
  • 1 4
 You will like the Mavens. They are SEG awesome!
  • 2 1
 Me too. I'm 230 and my Code RSC and XT with 220s are just fine. They are just enough which is fine on a trail bike but not great on my big bike.
  • 33 1
 Why wait? Come jump on the Hayes train Smile
  • 4 3
 Probably because your pads are completely glazed over, I'm convinced the semi-metallic pads are the problem. Code feel: half-way down a descent you stop, pull on your brake your wheel spins pretty much completely freely regardless of how hard you pull the lever. Try MTX pads, they made Codes rideable again for me.
  • 12 1
 You sound like me a while back and a prime candidate for some Hayes Dominion.
  • 1 1
 @jefe: Not sure about the glazing you refer to, but do agree that changing to MTX gold compound pads was a big improvement when I ran Codes. Much better initial bite and more stopping power with less lever effort.
  • 7 1
 I'm right around 200. Built a bike with Codes a few years ago, rode it one weekend and sold them. No enough power for me and my hands were cramping trying to get anything out of them. Back to my Saints and couldn't be happier. These are intriguing, though.
  • 2 2
 @bicycle019: Brake glazing is what happens when you overheat your brake pads and basically melt the surface of the pad; it is why Codes feel great at first and then after your first big descent they go to shit. Mountain bike brakes do an insane amount of work for how little brake pad there is so are very susceptible to this especially for larger humans (if you weigh 150 lbs you've probably never experienced it). The bigger pads on these new brakes should help the issue.

goodyearbrakes.com/brake-pads/fundamentals/what-is-brake-pad-glazing
  • 3 10
flag thenotoriousmic (Feb 22, 2024 at 10:45) (Below Threshold)
 @jefe: brake glazing is what happens when you don’t take out the crappy stock resin pads and replace with metallic. Metallic pads don’t glaze.
  • 16 0
 @thenotoriousmic: metallic absolutely glaze too
  • 4 8
flag onemanarmy FL (Feb 22, 2024 at 11:11) (Below Threshold)
 Those brakes suck. Get some TRPs.
  • 1 4
 @onemanarmy: man now Thoose are AWFUL
  • 4 1
 @bigmeatpete420: No way. Dhr-evos are hands down better than codes. I swapped two of my bikes to trps and wouldn't consider going back to sram.
  • 1 2
 @MarkusFinholt: incorrect metallic pads don’t glaze. They work by abrasion. Bits of iron and copper etc literally dig into the rotor. The hotter they get the softer the bits of metal inside the pad gets and the more overall bite they have. They’ll never glaze. The bits of metal just keep expanding and getting softer until they melt. They don’t insulate the calliper from heat like as resin pad does so you’ll over heat the brake before it gets that hot.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: if what you're saying is true then SRAM metallics are not fully metallic. I've glazed them myself, and restored them with sandpaper and water.
  • 3 0
 @AndrewHornor: this is the first time I've ever read someone saying that metal brake pads don't glaze. I'd agree, they do glaze. My old Shimano Saints would glaze the pads; you could immediately tell because even with tons of material left, they'd start stopping poorly. And the pad surface would look shiny.

If the pads get so hot that they melt, like what that guy said, it makes perfect sense that when they cool, they'd be glazed over. You essentially cooked them to death.
  • 1 0
 @AndrewHornor: they’d have been resin / organic (black back plate) again metallics (copper back plate) don’t glaze. If you had to take your pads out after glazing it’s because they’re resin. Metal gets hotter and softer and expands, the exact opposite of glazing. Metal pads you’ll never have to sand down due to them being abrasive themselves.
  • 1 0
 @Canadmos: again they’ll be resin / organic. Shimano finned metallics are the best in the business.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: They were Shimano pads.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: they'd have been metallics, because I live in a wet climate and have never owned SRAM organics. You underestimate my ability to drag brake for 7 minutes straight, haha.
  • 3 1
 @bogdan75 Hayes dominions, big thick rotors, Galfer pros. No fade, no hand fatigue, no worries. And they’re quite cheap too.

The only criticism I have was that in a car park test the Galfer pads felt softer at the lever after bite point than the Hayes pads, but this is not relevant when riding as you would never pull that hard whilst riding. Oh and I wanted the bronze but they were out of stock when I bought, so got the stealth.

Had code RSCs, Rs and now these. I will recommend these to anyone I can. And bleed process is better, as despite the usability of the bleeding edge, I’ve had two different fitting introduce air into the bleed. With Hayes you displace the fluid with the screw at the lever/caliper eliminating the possibility of introducing air, plus you can flush the caliper independently. Then you can micro adjust the caliper alignment and the “contact point” adjustment comes at the minimum possible from factory, 2 sets of pads, a great bleed block and hose cutting spares. Check the blister shootout. They do not disappoint.

Why have you not bought them already?

Thank you for reading this far.

  • 2 0
 @GrouseVibez: that's a good shout. I second the Galfer Pros as great pads. I never faded them, and they work extremely well in the wet for an organic pad, while somehow staying quiet. Not the longest lifespan, but a worthwhile tradeoff for what you get.

Another good option is MTX gold. Unimpressive when cold, but get them up to temp and they are incredible. Durability is supposed to be up there with metallics, though I haven't had mine long enough to confirm.

Dominions are so nice. These mavens might be too but Hayes beat them to it.
  • 40 11
 I dont know why the bike industry is so against DOT brake fluid its used in literally every other industry universally, its cheap and can be found anywhere. Could it be that they want to sell you brand specific fluid at a huge markup? The bike industry would never do that!
  • 28 36
flag RBalicious FL (Feb 22, 2024 at 7:47) (Below Threshold)
 @Aem221 possibly because it is highly corrosive/toxic?
  • 6 24
flag Jonesey23 (Feb 22, 2024 at 7:53) (Below Threshold)
 No its not though. Go find out what they use in aviation, motorsport etc. Maybe in our low performance consumer cars but when performance matters they do not use DOT
  • 22 17
 For me, if I am choosing between two chemicals that have both been demonstrated to offer the same performance, one has been shown to be safe enough to rub on a babies skin, and the other will peel the paint off my bike, I am going with the baby oil
  • 26 5
 @RBalicious: you shouldn't get mineral oil on your bare skin either. In practice you should wear gloves and be careful when working with either fluid. One does objectively perform better in every other braking application aside from bikes, which is funny.
  • 6 11
flag jcav5 (Feb 22, 2024 at 8:13) (Below Threshold)
 @Jonesey23: Cover your frame in DOT fluid and report back.

It's a bike not an airplane.
  • 18 10
 @GTscoob: normal mineral oil you can quite literally drink as a gut lubricant, so idk where this is coming from. The bike stuff with additives you shouldn't drink, but probably not much worse. Pretty sure you die if you treat dot fluid the same way.
  • 1 0
 @jcav5: To clarify - my response is to @Aem221, not @RBalicious (who is totally correct).
Hence the "they do not use DOT" part of my reply.
  • 12 1
 @jcav5: if you are covering your frame with DOT when you’re bleeding your brakes. . . You might be doing it wrong
  • 14 2
 @GTscoob: @fuzzhead45 In a similar forum, I dropped links to the SDS reports on these chemicals. Where I still wear gloves when bleeding my mineral oil brakes, DOT fluid is more corrosive/toxic. Very easy to tell which is the more impactful substance for an organism/environment when additives to the mineral oil are 3%.

Here are the links again:
Shimano Mineral Oil
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/compliance/sds/hydraulic%20mineral%20oil-202008-ENG-GHS.pdf

TRP Mineral Oil
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://trpinfrastructure.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Shell-Heat-Transfer-Oil.pdf

DOT 5.1
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/http://www.finishlineusa.com/files/Brake%20Fluid%20DOT_US%20SDS_English_29%20April%202015.pdf

DOT 4
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://complexchemical.com/wp-content/uploads/DOT_4_BrakeFluid_SDS_120915_FINAL-1.pdf

Simply copy & paste into your browser, from chrome-extension to end of pdf, and it will bring up the PDF SDS reports for each.
  • 4 2
 @The-Wheel: the same is true of the stuff you wash your clothes in, your dishes, your sink, mirror, toilet, etc. There’s a lot of stuff you could test on your digestive system, but I don’t know that edibility is the test we should necessarily use for everything.
  • 6 2
 For me, it's about the ease of handling and storage. With DOT fluid, I'm always paranoid about spillage and storage issues. With mineral oil, I'm not worried about any of that. I also use Maxima premix oil and air filter oil on my motorcycle and am extremely happy with their product and price points. If I were to get a set of these brakes, I'd have no qualms about the Maxima fluid.
  • 11 10
 What's next, will people start talking about the effects of excessive dihydrogen monoxide? It's also deadly when you consume too much of it or get it in your lungs.

I want to know how many of you have even purchased DOT fluid, let alone actually bled your brakes. There is no way that the majority of these commenters suddenly have adept mechanical experience and can bleed brakes.
  • 9 8
 @RBalicious: lol as long as you're not drinking it, your fine. Highly corrosive/toxic lol grow some hair on your chest or buy a hazmat suit for your car mechanic if you're that worried.
  • 4 1
 @The-Wheel: You can't say "probably not much worse" when you haven't even looked.
  • 2 4
 @Bro-LanDog: I think more, and base my decisions on research rather than a hold my beer approach Wink
  • 3 7
flag Bro-LanDog (Feb 22, 2024 at 9:40) (Below Threshold)
 @RBalicious: I'd consider not mountainbiking then, the risk just doesn't seem worth it if you're worried about 10ml of brake fluid dribbling down your forearm.
  • 4 5
 @Bro-LanDog: Hmm, send that ish blind type, eh? Good on ya and keeping that health care industry boomin. Muppet
  • 4 9
flag Bro-LanDog (Feb 22, 2024 at 9:55) (Below Threshold)
 @RBalicious: I'm surprised you got all that out without ruining your manicure. Don't ride or wrench too much bro might damage them soft hands!
  • 6 3
 @Jonesey23: @Jonesey23: What are you talking about, they use brake fluid in F1, Moto GP, supercross, gncc etc. Its very high performance and high boiling point stuff but its brake fluid nonetheless.

Brake Fluid isnt battery acid I get it on my hands often and unless it spills on delicate paint if its wiped up right away it doesnt dissolve metal and flesh.
  • 2 5
 @RBalicious: I think the health aspect has been overlooked. Think of cumulative damage to bike mechanics. Probably a few years taken off lives when you add together the slight adverse effect. No joke, even if mineral is slightly worse, it's better to look after health...
  • 2 0
 @nickfranko: welcome to the PB comments section
  • 2 1
 @Aem221: I didn't say they don't use brake fluid.
  • 6 4
 All things being equal with the any oil fluids not being able to compress, you'd have to look at the fluid characteristics such as boiling point. In addition, mineral oil is hydrophobic. So, it does not absorb water like DOT fluid does. This is the reason why other bike manufacturers that provide brakes use mineral oil is because it outperforms DOT fluid in all cases, including the maintenance aspects. This is for bikes we're talking about, not planes, trains and automobiles. For those applications, the industries have set standards with ASTM or other engineering standards and everyone uses the same standards and no one really deviates from that with few exceptions. Those specifications must also be supported by OEM parts. Biking part specifications are mostly dictated by their own proprietary manufacturing standards. It's like a wild wild west, especially when it comes to SRAM and Trek. If they want, they just come up with another one of their proprietary standards and see if anyone else would follow. If people think spilling oil is not an issue, they haven't done enough flushing of their brake systems. It really sucks if the tubes you're using is not snug on those bleed ports. So, having DOT fluid drip on your expensive parts, in addition to your skin, is not a good thing.
  • 39 12
 I’ve seen a lot of complaints about the Codes but I have a pair of RSC for 4 years, I have just changed the lever pistons and bearing this year and they are really nice, reliable and powerful. Can’t say the same about durability for Shimano or Magura despite the good performance.
  • 29 4
 I have a set of deores that have seen regular usage for 7 years now. Seasonal pads and bleed and zero durability issues.
  • 15 0
 The Saints on my Enduro bike are 5yo and they'll be rocking for a few years to come yet. Only bleeds and pads needed.
  • 7 1
 You and I must be unicorns, mine are 4+ years old as well. I did buy the new HS2 rotors and Galfer brake pads and find the modulation and power fine, I weigh about 210LBS. I have bled the front once and did replace the entire rear a few years ago from a crash and have bled that maybe once as well.
I would like to try these though as I agree that you can never have too much power. The Shimano's on my ebike are very powerful but inconsistent lever and also the power is all on. Wet condition riding can be interesting!
  • 1 0
 I would like to try the Saints. I am still running some XT on my trail bike and I really like the feeling, power and compact lever but I had the cracked ceramic pistons twice which means buying a whole new caliper and then the sticky lever which means just throw the whole thing away and buy new as there are no spare parts available except the lever blade. I don't really mind the price of it but I like parts which are fully serviceable better instead of bining stuff
  • 9 3
 Codes are super consistent and great brake. Powerful, easy to bleed and service, easy to find parts for. I bleed them twice a season at most? (or when new pads are needed).

DOT Fluid also does work better in the cold. I've got Guides on my fatbike and they work much better in negative temps than the tektros that were on there.
  • 7 1
 @ridedigrepeat: I'm not calling you wrong, but I think the cold temp performance you mention may have more to do with the level of brake quality you're comparing. I've been running Saints, and I've had way more rides in the +5C to -5C range this winter than usual, with I've had zero issues with consistency.
  • 3 1
 @mammal: I've had issues with XT's in very cold temps as well. They honestly work fine, but sometimes the lever return can be slower than I'd like and they can be inconsistent (likely heating up and cooling down rapidly).

For whatever reason I've found Sram stuff more consistent overall (in every temperature). I've had tons of issues with XTs recently...

I think they haven't touched the Saint's because they work... so why mess with a good thing.
  • 4 4
 @mammal: mineral oil expands in the cold. Ive had shimano saints leak from the master cylinder in -5 conditions in the uk.
  • 10 0
 @mikelee: I think you're referring to seals shrinking in the cold. Fluids don't generally expand as they cool.
  • 1 6
flag mikelee (Feb 22, 2024 at 9:45) (Below Threshold)
 @mammal: never happened with any dot fluid brakes. who knows!
  • 5 0
 been running current gen 4 piston xtrs on my bike, their honestly so good, lever feel is really nice, just general maintenance on them and they just keep working, used to be big time anti shimano, tried them and holy shit, so impressed
  • 29 0
 I think we'd all like to see a pb field test with brakes. You each use your favoritest bike and trade brakes every few days with fresh pads/rotors.
  • 5 1
 This. I've pretty much had it with my Saints. I'm looking for something with as close to zero free stroke as possible that will throw me over the bars as soon as the pads hit the rotors. But when I ask what brakes fit the bill, everyone on any forum all has a different answer. So for the time being I'm sticking with the devil I know in the Saints.
  • 2 11
flag Ih8Hondas (Feb 22, 2024 at 9:18) (Below Threshold)
 And all of that preferably with a long lever because I HATE index finger braking and would much rather use my middle fingers or just two finger it like on my motorcycle.
  • 3 0
 @Ih8Hondas: Radic kaha's will be the only brake that do that. Very very short stroke.
  • 2 0
 Honestly yes, surprised this hasn't been talked about before. There are some many rad looking brakes that only ever get compared to a couple of other models, it would be rad to have a full cross-referenced field test where they're all compared to one another.
  • 14 1
 @Ih8Hondas: middle finger braking? thats phsychopathic
  • 6 0
 They should have to use bikes with headset routing though and then see if they stand behind it not being a big deal.
  • 3 0
 We need a test with brake dynos, it should be objective not subjective
  • 2 2
 @Ih8Hondas: LOL, maybe that is the reason why you've had it with the Saints brakes. If they're touchy, that's actually a good thing and you need to learn to modulate those brake levers properly or let out the free stroke a bit so you get more of a spongy/later response on the squeeze. I sometimes use my middle fingers in my early days of using hydraulic disc brakes but now, the index finger works like a charm with all my Shimano brakes. For cable disc brakes on E-Bikes and fat bikes, yeah, at least 2 fingers on each brake.
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: I think you may have misunderstood my comment. If anything, I want more touchiness and outright power from them. Modulation isn't a problem.

I want max power with min effort, and zero free stroke.
  • 1 0
 @Robstyle: Unfortunately not in my price range. I am a poor.
  • 1 1
 I support this idea, but if this review is any indication, the comments will turn into a useless debate about DOT vs mineral oil. Scrolling this thread for any actual useful information about the brakes themselves has been fruitless.
  • 1 0
 @Lokirides: sorry, fat fingers didn’t mean to downvote. Agreed a shootout or lab testing would be nice. SRAM v Shimano and DOT v Mineral is all very much driven by individual preference. Would like something quantifiable regarding performance.
  • 32 8
 They look like an early 2000's throwback. In a bad way.
  • 6 6
 I like the brutal visual approach for a caliper.
  • 6 1
 no, you are way off..this is 80's throw back...lol
  • 2 0
 @javadown1969: definitely reminds me of the scene in Terminator 2 where he skins his own arm.
  • 44 21
 Happy the mineral oil rumors were true. Good riddance to DOT fluid.
  • 11 5
 but (according to the video), you MUST use SRAM-specific mineral oil or the brakes will explode or something
  • 3 5
 I’d suggest reading the review Wink
  • 13 0
 @sooner518: I beleive they will actually catch on fire if you don't use the SRAM oil.
  • 1 1
 @powderhoundbrr: they’re just saying your seals might not last as long if you don’t use the fluid they’re designed to work with and more importantly they might get weird if you put in a warranty claim.
  • 21 1
 Hmmm. Hayes T4 are the same price but 200g lighter for the set.
  • 10 16
flag dkidd (Feb 22, 2024 at 9:34) (Below Threshold)
 If weight and price are your priorities, the SRAM Level Ultimates are even lighter and cheaper than the Hayes.
  • 18 2
 @dkidd: we are also glossing over the fact that Dominions are stronger, have way better modulation, and a much lighter lever feel than Level Ult's...
  • 20 5
 + Big power
+ Mineral oil
- Big inboard levers don't look great, makes cockpit look narrow and bulky
- Caliper looks like an unfinished prototype, thought they would clean it up for production.
In summary they seem to have chosen function over form, which isn't a bad thing but as a magpie like most mountain bikers i'm not sure i could put these on my bike.
  • 5 0
 My hands are pretty large, so my lever position might be a bit more extreme than most.
  • 2 3
 agree levels is not good.. maguras look cooler
  • 6 0
 For some customers (e.g. me), choosing function over form makes products more attractive
  • 2 0
 @dariodigiulio: On the calipers, are they a PITA to get centered on the rotor with only the small cut outs? What about trail side or parking lot after a crash? Nice review, btw.
  • 18 0
 There’s an Eddie Van Halen version!
  • 13 0
 An Eruption of braking power
  • 4 1
 I dig it!
My entire bike is painted EVH
So I’m considering but also hesitant because of the not actual matching
Hmm
  • 4 0
 It really deserves to be put on the Evil Chamois Hegar…
  • 5 0
 Hopefully those rotors won't get too hot for teacher.
  • 1 0
 @stormracing: Nice Bronson!
  • 13 0
 The pricing is perplexing. Mostly the Ultimates are $300 a pop, so $600 for a set. Or pay $600 and all the pads, rotors, adapters, bleed kit. Like the 4 rotors alone would be over $200. In that way, the Ultimate expert kit is a wild deal. Who doesn't want a rotor travel bag?!
  • 13 6
 Yeah not bad except the kit makes you get the ugliest calipers.
  • 9 4
 @slovenian6474: obviously you were born in the late 90's or early 2000 because you know nothing about 80's style...these calipers are sick!
  • 5 0
 @javadown1969: I guess when I was born isn't as obvious as it seems.
  • 3 0
 Yeah that Expert Kit is a great deal. I'd seriously considering buying if I needed brakes.
  • 1 0
 @WalrusRider: For sure. I already have an extra set of TRP DH-EVOs from wife's bike that didn't fit her coz small hands (and my favorite brakes). Am curious, but also don't have extra funds for this curiosity, even with what would be a killer deal. Will probably get there eventually, especially if I can try them on a full power e-bike. Admittedly I have have experience on the heavy bois with Code R and SLX with resin pads that came on my Marin (waiting to wear them out to throw metals on there).
  • 3 0
 @lwkwafi: TRP have a new pushrod for the DHR Evo with a much longer threaded section that let's you get the levers 12-13 clicks closer to the bar than the stock ones. PAHD1307 is the part number. Just installed them on my wife's bike this week and it's sorted that problem for her.
  • 1 0
 @farkinoath: Whoa, good to know. I already replaced them with her favored XTs, but will keep that info in mind if I have other friends who complain they can run them in far enough. I have felt the TRPs just stand up better compared to the XTs and such, and was hoping she'd dig them. But tiny hands didn't play well. Good to know there is a solution short of the after market lever blades (even if they come in cool colors).
  • 13 0
 I want to see that leverage graph compared to a Shimano Saint, an XT, A Hayes Dominion, and a Magura MT7. I will only be buying brakes based off of their leverage graphs from here on out.
  • 2 0
 If you know how the code compare to the RSC, check this chart from Hayes
m.pinkbike.com/photo/16077151
  • 17 5
 So these new top-of-range SRAM brakes are "about the same as 10-year old Saint's". A bit more power (but too much as both testers had to detune them), but not as good lever feel.

And the fact that Saint's can be had for much cheaper in the open market....
  • 2 0
 But they’re bigger and heavier to match the bigger and heavier 29’er they’re designed for. I think they have snack storage.
  • 11 0
 What do these bike industry people mean by "modulation"? Every brake I have tried has the braking force almost exactly proportional to the lever force once the bite point hits, and the ones with more "modulation" just require moving the lever around more to vary the force. Are there people who are unable to tell how hard they are pulling on the lever with their finger? I don't get it, would someone please explain.
  • 24 6
 Modulation is just a fancy, short hand term for brakes that don’t have any power. People who say they prefer more modulation really mean they have the dexterity of a toddler and can’t use real brakes.
  • 3 1
 @TheSlayer99: I mean I’m perfectly capable of modulating more on/off feeling brakes but genuinely prefer the extra pull required to get from bite point to locking up the wheel. I’m not always confident enough to be a brake hard and late charger so I feel like it gives me more control when things get squirrelly.
  • 5 0
 I agree, it is a terrible word. Modulation is what the rider does, not a property of the brake. I think people generally mean a less stiff feeling bite point, so that their finger moves more for the same force variation. But honestly, I think it often gets misused and what people are actually experiencing when they say that a brake has better or worse modulation is a more or less consistent brake. Or at least that is what matters most to me, I want my bite point to stay in the same place and my pads to always have the same amount of friction.
  • 6 0
 Having worked for a much bigger brake manufacturer than SRAM, “modulation” generally refers to a sufficiently low force vs lever displacement curve gradient. It seems that a large part of the biomechanical feedback loop is actually related to (relative) motion - if you pull the lever a specific amount harder, your brain seems to be most comfortable (ie confirms the result of your action best) if the lever physically moves a certain distance. If the lever moves too far (lever feel too soft), you lose confidence that it’ll actually stop hard enough, and even a brake with a sufficiently high ratio of stopping force vs lever force can feel weak. If it doesn’t move far enough (lever feel too firm) it can be perceived as very “on/off” and lacking in precision or control resolution (which is objectively untrue but that’s the perception). Exactly how firm or soft you want the lever to feel is the part that varies according to personal preference.
  • 13 0
 let the Sramano, Magram, sTRam..... amalgamations commence
  • 1 0
 Shimaven
  • 2 0
 Shimaguram.
  • 13 3
 Can we start getting these rather than the shite guide rsc’s that are spec’d on pretty much every new bike build regardless of price
  • 18 3
 No.
  • 3 1
 you can get g2's
  • 5 1
 Guides and G2s are terrible for some reason (at least in terms of power and brake feel), but the Code RSCs are awesome.
  • 2 2
 @ridedigrepeat: I love my guides. They’re my favourite brake ever. I’ve flat out abused them and they never failed once. I last bled the back brake in 2019. But it does depend on what you ride. If you’re riding stuff where you’re braking hard and late they’re not the brake you want but if you’re riding horrible steep tech trails where your on the brakes all the way down and you like braking on mossy off cambered wet limestone or slate where control and modulation is key they’re a great choice.
  • 3 5
 @ridedigrepeat: if you're ok with DOT fluid (I'm not, because I want bleeding brakes to be relaxing rather than worrying about that stuff, I do enough sketchy nervy shit for work and don't need that in my garage), and if you're not well over 200# and riding PNW terrain, yep, those RSCs are lovely. At my size and on my trails, though, their finely tuned modulation and consistent bite point are a luxury I'll gladly trade away for the brutal reliable power of just about any 4 pot Shimanos.
  • 16 5
 so it took sram 10years to make some brakes that are only slightly better than saints
  • 16 1
 WE are Not even sûre they are better..
  • 9 1
 so were trying to make a nice powerful 4 piston dh oriented brake, that uses mineral oil...and for the design they had a 4 year old engineer draw a picture of a Saint...but, a Saint that requires more maintenance and constant adjustment. neat.
  • 9 0
 Love the contrast of the Frameworks embossed head badge in the header image with the Ibis head sticker in the video. The best head badge vs the worst.
  • 9 1
 So you’re saying the Hayes Dominion has ample power, better modulation and a lighter lever feel? Doesn’t surprise me. The paint job on these makes it look like the brakes got ran through a blender.
  • 8 1
 A lot of comments here comparing DOT brake fluid to mineral oil. My concern is that Sram has been trying to make a good (DH) brake for years, but have come up short, My last rig came with Codes spec'ed on it & I immediately changed them out for Saints. I have XTs &XTRs on my trail / enduro bikes. I've also ridden TRP & Hope brakes and Sram just doesn't compare...
  • 15 6
 Do they still have plastic pistons in the lever which get stuck when the weather is too hot or cold?
  • 10 0
 I'lll a set of Van Mavens!
  • 4 0
 Gigantic miss on the marketing/product department not naming these 'Van Mavens'. lol \m/
  • 2 0
 I'm confused as to why this is the only Van Halen comment. It's the first thing that I thought of and I'm not even a fan.
  • 10 1
 Honestly, the aesthetics of the caliper is a no from me. But the video was fun to watch.
  • 12 2
 BRING BACK 2011 AVID CODES!
  • 3 1
 I still have at least 2 pairs in the old spares box at home.
  • 7 1
 oh god why?
  • 4 0
 @mattyboyr6-2: There’s a reason Kyle Strait and Semenuk ran them in recent years at Rampage.

…Probably because they don’t slow you down and make you commit :p

I’m finally retiring mine as you cant easily get lever rebuild kits anymore, and now the feel like blocks if wood. Got a set of Mavens all set to toss me over the bars.
  • 2 0
 @leon-forfar: still running mine. Bled it a few times and that is it (possibly regreased the calipers too). Not going to touch what ain't broken
  • 3 0
 @jds1981: Same, they just work, maybe survivorship bias (so I'm the lucky few with good Avid Codes), but never had irrepairable issues with those. One lever, and one caliper rebuild in 12+ years. While I'm not planning to replace them, probably my next brake will be Hayes Dominion A4.
  • 1 0
 @elsorichard: Been considering the Dominions too. See them on a lot of Rampage bikes.
  • 1 0
 @hit-n-run: highly recommend the dominions. They’re worth it for the level feel alone.
  • 6 0
 I might be missing something, but the Ultimate's are $300/wheel, so $600 total. However, the Ultimate Expert kit is $600, and comes with rotors, extra pads, and a bleed kit? That doesn't make sense to me. Why would everyone just not buy the Expert kit if they were in the market for the Ultimate version of these?
  • 8 0
 its limited
  • 4 0
 They don't want to put that hideous paint scheme on their bike?
  • 1 0
 @safety: true, that colorway is ugly haha
  • 10 0
 Only took them 35 years to come up with a powerful brake.
  • 8 2
 Where's the other half of that brake force over lever force graph? The one that shows lever throw over brake force for each brake?

Because you can't just get power for nothing, despite how much Dire Straits you listen to. That's how mechanical advantage works: trade off force for motion, or vice versa. If there is more force at the brake for a given lever force, then the lever is going to have to move more. Sure, more pad surface area helps, but the other graph would help so how much comes from that vs more lever movement.
  • 1 1
 he says the lever feels exactly like a code. so thats a pretty short throw in my experience
  • 2 0
 @mikelee: yeah, and they could have just told us it feels 50% more powerful, but they included graph for "proof" of that. Would be nice to see the graph for the other side of the mechanical advantage equation.
  • 1 0
 That's exactly what I was thinking. The only thing that I can imagine to justify the graph is that they made the leverage curve more progressive to increase force at the bite point, then made the hose, caliper, and lever stiffer to account for it.
  • 2 0
 That is not necessarily given, if the system is stiffer, you don't have to "trade off force for motion". In the case of brakes, mainly the empty lever travel increases (assuming pad clearance is constant). The brake force over throw graph can be changed by the stiffness of the components and it looks like that caliper is not going to move much.
However, I agree that learning how they managed to make a brake feel good is the interesting part to me, because making it more powerful by increasing leverage is easy..
  • 11 2
 Those calipers are repulsive. They be looking like the early 2000's took a time machine to 2024, possibly even worse.
  • 8 0
 How does the power compare to other high end brakes like Hayes/DHR Evo/Hope?
  • 4 2
 equal if not more powerful. I've seen another review of them being compared to the hope tech 4 v4 and saying the maven is more powerful. which is crazy because the hopes are insanely powerful. others have said they're on par with the trickstuffs. so definitely a strong brake for sure.
  • 2 0
 @mikelee: which reviews said that? Would be keen to read them. Thanks!
  • 2 0
 @stormracing: I listened to the video on my lunch break rather than just reading, and Dario also said the same.
  • 3 0
 @howejohn: just did the same thing! Yep, heard it too. Thanks!
I did the same and just read initially but moments ago, I watched the video and it helped out
  • 7 3
 @mikelee: until i see graphs, all of that is just hearsay and marketing bullshit
  • 5 1
 @Tiefkuehlpizza: I can whip up a graph in MS Paint if you want. I'll even throw a guarantee of BS on top.
  • 2 0
 @Tiefkuehlpizza: tbf you can work out their power looking at piston size in callipers and master cylinder piston size pretty much. looking at those you know the powers going to be high.
  • 3 0
 @stormracing: checkout rob rides bikes on YouTube. He's comparing them to his hope v4. says they're probably more powerful which is impressive. My mates v4 brakes are so powerful almost too much imo. Adam brayton uses the e4 instead so says it all really.
  • 1 1
 I just don’t understand the need for mega powerful brakes. Anything requiring a huge paw full of lever will send you into a skid regardless. Temperature regulation I do understand.
  • 4 1
 @connorgsmith3: Heavier riders, bigger wheels, heavier wheels, and longer, steeper descents are all reasons why one brake might be perfect for a certain rider and underpowered for another. For instance, if you have someone who weighs 220+ pounds, rides long sustained steep and fast downhills and runs dual 29" downhill tires with Cushcore, that person is likely going to roast a normal brake setup. There's so much momentum and traction available that most brakes can't keep up with that sort of rider and application. These brakes obviously aren't for everyone, but I imagine there are some riders who are over the moon to get on them. I know I am.
  • 4 0
 @connorgsmith3: I used to think that, until I started doing long descents. More powerful brakes means less effort to get the same amount of power, and this adds up, especially over continuous riding days. My V4s have made riding trips much less taxing and much more enjoyable.
  • 2 0
 @howejohn: oh god please do it like hambini, i´d kill for that
  • 5 0
 I tried a shigura setup once on 220 rotors. that was way too much. And I had the direttissima for 2 years. If youre heavier on a heavy bike, stronger brakes are better maybe. but 75kg on an enduro, mt7 or direttissima are already on the strong side.
  • 2 0
 I had MT5 calipers and 8100 brake levers and it was WAY too much brake for me, and I'm 200lbs/90kg. I loved my MT5s but found the levers too fragile. I'm on DHR EVOs now and am happy with the power.
  • 8 0
 Why didn't you say they were heavy rather than pretending the weight is the users fault?
  • 7 2
 The marketing here is missing the mark for me; it isn't about how much power a brake has but how much control. Magura changed the game with modulation and now TRP and Hayes are on a similar level. Powerful brakes are useless if you can't control them. With no change to pad compound, I am interested in how SRAM solved their pad to rotor glazing problem.
  • 2 1
 Control (modulation) has been a selling-feature of SRAM Brakes since I've been using them. These brakes look like their retain the modulation of Codes, with more available power. This means when you bed your brakes in properly (so they don't glaze) you can fine tune the power with rotors (-14% power per step down in rotor size, but lighter and less prone to damage) and pad compound.
  • 2 0
 @dkidd: Yes, modulation is what set Codes on top (besting shimano's on-off feel) like 15 years ago; the level, however, got raised since then and SRAM got left behind. Glazing happens when you overheat your brake pads, the larger pad surface area here should help that issue... hopefully it's enough.
  • 6 1
 Proprietary fluid? Sounds about SRAM. I'd love to see what the gross profit margin on that stuff is. I was actually excited until I read "plastic" pistons. One thing I've learned with SRAM products: Never buy the first version. I'll wait to see if they come out with a new version next year that fixes a design flaw for which they'll sell a modification kit for $50+ and bike shops charge $100+ to install or the DIYer has to buy a "special" tool for. Why do the right thing when you can hit up your customer base for more money to fix it, right?
  • 3 0
 Shimano and Magura both have "proprietary fluids" too.. Sram didn't (because they used DOT), so it actually sounds very much unlike sram to me
  • 1 1
 @finnspin: I don't recall Shimano telling me to buy one certain brand of fluid or it would eat the seals on their brake systems. I could buy any brand of mineral oil. I've seen fear based sales plenty, this one is textbook. They also tried to tell people that SRAM branded DOT fluid was somehow "special" from other DOT fluid. And people BELIEVED that crap! DOT is a STANDARD, and all brands have to meet that same standard to put DOT on the container.
  • 4 0
 @TalusRider: ... " Incompatible fluids damage the rubber components, which no longer seal effectively. Using a third-party fluid will chemically compromise the rubber seals inside the system." - bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/news/mineral-oil-brake-fluids.html
They all give you the same BS.
  • 1 0
 @finnspin: I stand... or sit, corrected. Guess I never paid attention when I was bleeding my Shimanos and now I don't have them anymore. Sorry you had to do that legwork to prove that to me. Peace.
  • 15 7
 Another SRAM brake. I'll pass.
  • 5 1
 Would these not evaporate organic pads?

Sounds like a good upgrade to codes, seeing as these will probably grace most stock bike builds. But the heavy lever feel is the most annoying part of codes along with the huge lever throw.

The other day just as a test I tried pulling the levers 10x times in a row, but releasing before the pads actually slowed the rotor, The lever is so heavy I could feel my forearms warming up despite not actually doing any braking!
  • 3 11
flag mikelee (Feb 22, 2024 at 9:27) (Below Threshold)
 haha you must be weak as hell. lever giving you arm pump after 10 pulls, thats so funny. I'm assuming you're taking the piss,if not join a gym ffs man.
  • 10 0
 @mikelee: damn, your social skills are on par with your reading skills
  • 7 0
 So happy they finally released a brake set with the same stopping power of a single piston Shimano SLX!! super pumped!
  • 15 8
 Wait SRAM I thought DOT fluid was the best wha’happen
  • 13 3
 Have they ever said DOT is the best? They actually have a video explaining the advantages/disadvantages of each.
  • 24 3
 In my opinion moving away from DOT to a model or brand specific fluid is a PITA.
Try to find Magura blood in rural BC, or Costa Rica, or....but you can find DOT fluid at almost every backwoods gas station for $5 for a litre.
One of the biggest advantage, and still is the main driver behind DOT use in vehicles is its universal nature. I can find, and have Codes bled in and hour almost anywhere in the world, when you travel with your bike, thats a huge advantage. Trying to find Motorex mineral oil, Fack.
  • 8 2
 @onawalk: if you're traveling remotely finding specific fluid is useless without a specific bleed kit anyway.
  • 1 1
 @onawalk: exactly
  • 6 1
 Mineral oil “is optimal for people who don’t ride in a competitive context" - science of stopping video.
  • 14 4
 @onawalk: Don't believe the bollocks about specific brake mineral oil and there is plenty available. A bigger pain is having several open or old containers of DOT and not knowing how much water they've absorbed.
  • 6 0
 @onawalk: I'm willing to bet that Shimano Mineral oil works fine.
  • 5 2
 @onawalk: yes but based on your 'any brand will do in an emergency' situation you can find mineral oil (baby oil) pretty much any where.
  • 2 1
 @RonSauce: Theres really nothing specific about my Code bleed kit other than the fitting. You can get syringes anywhere, and I've done it several times with a condiment squeeze bottle
  • 1 5
flag onawalk (Feb 22, 2024 at 8:25) (Below Threshold)
 @G-Sport: but I still need to find mineral oil, I cant think of the last time I saw a mineral oil to use in my brakes at the local gas station
  • 6 7
 @mammal: Sure,
how do I find Shimano mineral oil in Williams Lake on Sunday, or Monday?

the universal nature of DOT brake fluid is a huge bonus
  • 4 9
flag onawalk (Feb 22, 2024 at 8:27) (Below Threshold)
 @andrewbikeguide: Possibly,
You know whats not open on Sundays, bike shops, Mondays too a lot of the time.
You know whats open basically 24-7, gas stations.

What is the benefit to mineral oil over DOT fluid?
  • 1 2
 @andrewbikeguide: you could run any fluid in a pinch they are all non compressible. I think the use of Dot fluid in cars and stuff has less to do with availability and more to do with heat resistance. Water will actuate the brake but would evaporate doing so. I’m not sure what the heat management difference is between mineral oil and Dot fluid is but I’m guessing there is a difference.
  • 3 1
 @G-Sport: you can buy a DOT fluid moisture tester on Amazon for like $15.
(I still prefer mineral oil though.)
  • 7 0
 @onawalk: So take some oil with you on your trip. Do you also not have pads, mech hanger, tyre-plugs, chain-links, cable, a pump, tools, helmet, gloves, food, water, phone, charger etc etc etc. It's not like brake fluid is the ONE thing you need to remember.
I guess it is helpful being able to rely on a source of new oil when you never know if your existing oil is getting too much water in it though...
  • 3 0
 @mammal: It does. In fact in my brakes it's a mix of Shimano and Magura oil (ran out of one and just do quick bleeds with the other). It all works the same. Don't let the manufacturers fool you into thinking you can't use other brands oil.
  • 5 0
 @onawalk: How do you find pads in that same situation, and why don't you carry a little mineral oil in your kit, like you probably do with pads??
  • 1 0
 double post>
  • 6 2
 @G-Sport: exactly, the DOT faithful are pretty entertaining on how much they are reaching in this topic, haha!
  • 2 4
 @G-Sport: Im just not a fan of brand specific fluids, I recognize its becoming more common, especially in different applications, but I dont have to love it.
I dont see the "benefits" to mineral oil, especially when there is a perfectly good, universally available fluid.

I dont carry an entire bikes worth of spares when I travel, especially internationally, and certainly not additional fluids. especially when virtually any other fluid that I might need can be found everywhere.

add to that, we run multiple bikes in my house, being able to keep inventory to a minimum is great, and not having to worry about having the right fluid in the correct quantities is a plus. Again, evenings and weekends are the time I prolly do most of my wrenching, so you can see the issue.

All in its not the end of the world, I'll adapt, I just dont see the issue with DOT fluid.
  • 1 4
 @mammal: I've been travelling with bikes for prolly 25 years, the single biggest issue, or the one I remember the most is bleeding brakes. Whether its travelling on plane, or road trips (mountains, elevation, temp changes)

I havent had many other issues, other than der hangers in the past (UDH seems quite a bit more robust, and I can get by if the gears are a little noisy). In the past, if travelling by plane, I'd just pull the der and hanger off.

again, its not the end of the world, but why is mineral oil any better? Its not baby oil, its not really any more safe, and becomes a proprietary item that doesnt have (to me) any additional benefits.
  • 1 0
 @blueH2Oj: You can’t run “any” fluid in a pinch and expect improved results. This whole conversation is on DOT vs mineral oil - two fluids that can’t be interchanged.
  • 3 1
 @onawalk: Mineral is definitely safer for skin contact, and that's enough for me. It's good for you that you can still get DOT brakes, yay for choices.
  • 3 5
 @mammal: Mineral oil is safer, sure.
But not proprietary blends of the stuff. I believe the MSDS for the blends is much the same a it is for DOT, so wear gloves. Outside of bleeding your brakes, have you had much contact with bike brake fluid that has been an issue?

si.shimano.com/pdfs/compliance/sds/HYDRAULIC%20MINERAL%20OIL-202206-ENG-CLP.pdf

Maybe its just a comfort and exposure level that I'm used to. I think the idea of DOT fluid can be scary for some, and that is what likely has driven the change.
  • 2 1
 @blueH2Oj: Compress-ability is not the only concern. compatibility with seals is. Different oils can react with different seals in much different ways, especially when exposed to extreme heat.

Go ahead and put whatever you want in your brakes, but dont expect them to operate the same
  • 3 1
 @onawalk: see my other post on this. Don't skew the real results. Additive in mineral oils 3%, DOT additives >= to 30%.
  • 2 0
 @Planet-26: a closer hydraulic system can function with any fluid. That fluids decomposition rate will differ. I’m guessing dot will last longer than mineral oil based heat tolerance. That being said I can piss in my break remove the air and it will function. Probably not for very long but it will function. However given the low evaporation point of my piss it’s not the ideal fluid for breaks. All I’m saying is that dot is probably better albeit less user friendly. And yes you could mix them and it will function but with the different decomposition rates it won’t work for long. Anyway go dot!
  • 3 2
 @RBalicious: Yeah, I'm prolly not going to research your other posts.
The MSDS sheet is what it is. Mineral oil from manufacturers for brake fluid is not baby oil, but using the term presents a marketing assumption that its harmless. Just because the additive amounts are vastly different doesnt make it safer. 3% of arsenic in your morning coffee is prolly enough to kill you, as is 30%....

You should still use caution, and take the appropriate safety precautions when using a foreign substance that can be absorbed by the body. so since the appropriate precautions are the same, any potential benefit to mineral oil over DOT is far outweighed by the benefits of DOT (for me, your use case might differ)
  • 2 0
 @mammal: I'll bet you that SRAM will claim that Shimano Mineral Oil will disintegrate their seals.
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: Order on Amazon with Prime and hope to get it the very next day. Mike Levy
  • 2 2
 @nmurdick: Right... all those maguras and saints on the top of the DH podiums this year must have been secretly running DOT fluid in them
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: I think youve lost me, but I appreciate the Levy gif...
  • 2 1
 @OneBikeStand: His comment is in quotations because it is directly taken from the The Science of Stopping video, put out by Sram, which was also noted in the comment........
Its a good watch, with loads of good info, and details the breakdown of the difference between the two systems (DOT and mineral)

but extrapolating anything from parts used by WC DH racers is pretty pointless, they are otherworldly fast, and incredible bike handlers. Add to that, that they get paid to ride what theyre told, and well, its pretty hard to pull any useful data from that.

The bike shop name, and screen name are great, good play on words
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: I'm not sure exactly what happened to that post about how one would get the Shimano Mineral Oil on a Sunday in a small town out in the boonies. That was the thread I was referring to. It kind of disappeared and ended up on this thread.
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: I got that much and I stand by my point Razz

Thank you though, it struck me in a moment of profundity while I stared at my deconstructed workshop in my dining room, lamenting that I couldn't register my previous business name nor come up with something equally as clever.
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: What they will claim is that its not compatible, and honestly, why would you use Shimano oil anyway? The move away from Shimano has really helped with the wandering bite point issue that I find with Shimano brakes.
I have successfully used Putoline fluid for a while, and its been great.

The issue comes from clowns using the wrong fluid, then going back and bitching about getting a warranty replacement, rather than taking responsibility. I think SRAM is well within their rights to deny warranty to anyone who didnt use the proper fluid in their brakes, dont you?
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: I'm definitly not getting Amazon Prime next day service in Valemont, or Williams Lake, or Nelson, Or Rossland, etc on a Sunday!
  • 2 0
 @onawalk: be better prepared
  • 1 0
 @atestisthis: Yes, that's a good point for the bottle of DOT fluid on the bench, but it is no help with the fluid already inside the brake, can't get the tester in there. And $15 to test $5 worth of fluid is a tough sell, since most likely it's going to say I still need to chuck that fluid and get new anyway...
  • 1 0
 @jessemeyers: Curious,
  • 1 1
 @G-Sport: But your comment was about the fluid sitting on your bench....
If you ride regularly, are heavier, or ride steeper/faster, any manufacturer is going to suggest that you bleed your brakes once a year anyway. Srams comment has been that if you dont ride often or hard, mineral oil has a better shelf life while stored (in bottle, and in brake system)

My experience with Shimano is the system takes on micro amounts of air with heating cycles (my assumption has always been it enters through the piston seals during the expansion and contraction during those cycles) and requires at least an air purge, pretty regularly.
I run XT's on my short travel bike, Codes on my big bike. I do significantly more maintenance on my Shimanos than I do on my Codes.
The air purge is pretty quick, done in 10 mins on the stand, but I prolly do that once every 2 months.
Annecdotal for sure, but my opinions, as are everyones, are based on my experience
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: Yes. But the $5 bottle of DOT fluid doesn't justify the hygrometer on it's own. IF the hygrometer could test the fluid IN the brakes then it would be useful enough to justify the $15 price (IMO). Without it? Meh.

I have had Codes and various Shimano brakes, they've all been "fine". Been on Maguras for a while now and really like the lever shape and they seem to need a little less bleeding, I don't use the blue blood oil or any of that nonsense and haven't noticed a drop in performance, so this seems like the "easiest" solution to me.
  • 1 0
 @G-Sport: Thats fair,
but.....
the basis of your comment was literally about the bottles on your bench, not the fluid in the brakes. so moot point maybe?

why do you need to test the fluid in the brakes? its going to have degraded to the point of needing re-bleeding long before its absorbed enough moisture, unless of course its sitting in storage in a humid environment, in which case, bleed the brakes anyway

All these systems take on a certain amount of air through the heating cycles through expansion and contraction, debris on the pistons, dust, dirt and general use. So the more they are used, the more they will require bleeding, if its not used very often, less degrading, less need for bleeding, mineral oil is preferred as it has a longer shelf life. Do I have that correct?
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: I think someone really needs to do testing on different brands of mineral oil with different brake internal seals to see if any of the oils actually affect the rubber/silicone seals. One thing is certain - mineral oil will not break down any metallic substances or hoses. All oils affect rubber and silicone seals in some way. In addition to that testing, provide the mineral oil characteristics of each oil. You can't just assume all mineral is the same for all and baby oil is the same as that used for brakes (like one guy on Youtube mentioned, which is total bullshit).

Until there is a definite empirical analysis that is done, I will keep using Shimano Mineral Oil for my Shimano brakes. Like I said in my previous posts, the biking industry is a Wild Wild West with everyone coming out with their own sauces and implementations for everything. Trying to compare DOT fluid like you have for vehicles is moot because the bicycle industry is not regulated for standards. There were some before but right now, every goddamned manufacturer is trying to outdo each other and setting their own proprietary "standards". The worse thing is when you have Youtube reviews that are not really reviews but just another promotion of product brands. No one is bashing products for being shitty and everyone is just trying to be nice to gain votes, popularity, and "influential" money. This is why products suck these days because no one is actually doing an object real review and trying to kiss the manufacturer's ass to for product promotion/sponsorship.
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: dot fluid for cars is the exact same as what is used in bikes which is regulated by the department of transportation or DOT. You’ll notice that no manufacturers recommend dot 5 any more because it sucked and was chemically different from the others. Dot 5.1 I believe is the new call for sram and has the highest dry boiling point. The studies you mentioned have actually been done to some extent by a UK company called epic fluid or something like that. I think some in thread actually linked their site.
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: Fair,
If I was a manufacturer I would research, Develop, produce, and sell the thing that I believe is going to work the best, and provide the best ROI. I dont know that my underlining intention would be to provide the general public with what THEY thought was the best, unless it drastically changed my potential ROI.

I get companies developing things that they feel works best for what they are developing, and doing that in tandem with fluids, or electronics, or any other thing, especially when it is an advancement of the product.

Maybe the Maven is that advancement, but I feel like the mineral oil was a choice based on consumer complaints about increased maintenance, which can be solved by the switch to mineral oil.

So be it, but I dont have to like it.

Side note, do you think products suck these days?
I feel like everything is pretty amazing, I cant think of even an entry level mtb product that isnt light years better than high end stuff from the early 00's. I have a 34lb, 170mm travel enduro bike, that is more capable than my old trail bike, and my old DH bike. It stops, grips, turns, pops, and rips better than anything i've had before. Its heaps more reliable, was comparatively cheaper, lighter, and more fun as well.
I can happily run Deore, or NX stuff, and its so much better than 9spd XTR ever was....we have come a long way, and its amazing!
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: A lot of stuff are made not to last these days and are considered disposable. When I do reviews on Amazon, I usually do an initial impression/unboxing. Then, I usually go back and update my reviews without changing the original and let everyone know if the product actually works or if there are any nags. I had some sellers message me with bribes to change my reviews and I just let them know that I'm not changing my review as it stands so that I let other know if the product is good to buy or what issues it has. People looking at my review can then decide for themselves if the product fits their needs or to stay away. I'm definitely not afraid to damage anyone's reputation just for the sake of being nice or accepting bribes to put in a false review.

I find that in the past, there were more thoughts put into the products and the durability is one thing that stood out. Nowadays, a lot of things are just pretty much disposable goods and pretty much companies have a planned obsolescence for practically anything (must have developed this from Sony's corporate model - sell them expensive to make products feel premium and then expect people to buy more of their products in 2 years!). Worst thing is, you have social media with social influencers marketing the shit out of everything. I think it's also due to making things as light as possible. So, everything gets smaller and thinner. Plastic also wears out faster, especially when they're used in internal gears.

Some things are better if they're researched as you have said. I like the fact that Shimano does the trickle down effect for their parts. However, their 9020 XTR brake levers - brand new - were really good until 5 years in and all hell breaks lose! There's no way to repair those expensive levers. So, now, I just get all SLX or XT brake levers. The new XT and SLX were trickled down from XTR from previous generations but with modifications to actually be able to take everything apart to maintain properly. People complain how slow Shimano release their part updates or come out with new models. It's because they actually do actual design and analysis testing, not just on CAD. They take a long time to test but when they release their products and updates, they're usually pretty solid components that last for quite a while. The older shifters and derailleurs, I still use from 30 years ago and they still run fine and smooth. I still run the 10-spd stuff and likely move to 11-spd once all my 10-spd components are all worn out and the parts are no longer accessible. As well as what you said about the lower end components, those are definitely impressive and this is all due to the trickle down effect that Shimano has made for all their stuff. Their components are like Toyota for vehicles.
  • 7 2
 No need to be craven over clutching your Saintly brakes. The Maven seems like it will have what it takes, quoth the Raven Nevermore. ☠ #rothnothagar, #eapoe
  • 7 1
 That caliper looks like something that I got in a Happy Meal when I was a child.
  • 3 0
 I've heard about these coming out for a while, I thought they were going to be 6 piston. Very interesting design here. I'm sporting Hayes Dominions, and they are probably my favorite brake I've ever tried. I'm curious how the power compares on something like those to the mavens here. Will have to wait until a set comes through the shop I guess
  • 3 0
 I really wish that SRAM would change the angle that their brake hoses exit the levers. I know it is meant to be 'stealthy', but it doesn't suit bikes that aren't routed through the headset or stem. The older angles just seemed 'right'.
  • 1 0
 The angle is different on these brakes compared to the Stealth Codes - it no longer angles the hose right at the handlebar.
  • 3 0
 I dont know about all that boil point mess other than the boil on my tator , how come they only half assed the color, who wants a limited edition red on the rear and silver on the top, that aint even fly, I want the red on the head like a pecker on a dog and everthing
  • 6 1
 All this talk about power and comparisons but not one mention comparing to Saints.
  • 4 0
 Dario's pretty nervous in the video, it's like he just realised he mistakenly put on his girlfriend's pants and hopes nobody will realise. We didn't realise, Dario it's okay.
  • 8 4
 Are these intended more for ebikes than regular bikes? Would seem that way, but no mention of it in the article.
  • 3 2
 @notthatfast: Dude in the video literally just said they're meant for ebikes
  • 3 1
 @JohnnYrXyJ: Dude was wrong
  • 2 0
 @JohnnYrXyJ:
I redact my statement, dude was not wrong, you didn't listen properly.
"They're gonna be the choice for the biggest bikes, ebikes, gnarly descents..."
Nowhere in any of the literature does it say "designed for ebikes".
  • 3 0
 How big is the lever piston? still 9.5mm? I think that would make them the brakes with the biggest hydraulic leverage on the market.
  • 1 1
 Pistons have increased in size according to SRAM web site.
  • 5 4
 Do these new Mavens allow for less lever throw than the Codes? Even if you bleed them to death and leave the syringe open to pump the pads into rotor while bleeding and have contact adjust at a minimum, you still end up with an enormous amount of lever throw with the Codes.
  • 5 2
 Define enormous lever throw in mm?
  • 2 1
 In the end brakes are fairly simple systems, you should be able to overfill any brake so that there's no dead stroke. However your lever membrane will get leaky as soon as the system heats up.
If your bite point is soft, you probably got some air trapped in the caliper. Depending on the design removing can be quite difficult, best done when having the brake removed completely to be able to rotate the caliper freely.
If your bite point is hard then likely your brakes are dysfunctional in some way. Try thoroughly mobilizing your pistons, each one at a time. If the seals of the pistons get too sticky bc of dust/debris or wear of seal and/or piston, they slip way less, leading to a bigger dead stroke. Quick test to check this is pulling the brake hard and holding it for some time. If the dead stroke is significantly shorter now, the latter is likely your problem.
  • 2 1
 @andrewbikeguide: I’ve no idea in mm, but from feel they ‘feel’ as if they have about double the lever throw I could achieve on shimano xt’s that I used to run, at best. I like everything else about them, apart from what I feel is large amount of throw before it bites.
  • 1 0
 you're doing something wrong. my codes are very short. i can't stand too much lever travel.
  • 1 0
 I have Code RSC's, they are almost instant contact to pads, you need to use the contact adjustment to get bite closer.
  • 1 0
 @javadown1969: I’m well aware of the contact adjust and funnily enough it’s all the way in
  • 1 2
 @javadown1969: mine are the same, instant contact after about 1cm travel. think he's bleeding them with contact point out.
  • 2 0
 @mikelee: no, I’m not!
  • 2 0
 The point is, the contact adjust should have a useable range, I’ve yet to meet anyone who runs their code levers at anything other than fully in
  • 1 4
 @oatkinso: well depends where in the lever travel you want to bite! i think you're not fully understanding the system.
  • 2 0
 @mikelee: do enlighten me!
  • 5 0
 Most "bite point" adjustments aren't doing anything other than adding some free play in the lever that does nothing other than delay the point where a cam starts pushing on the piston. So it's not altering sensitivity or changing feel or anything useful - it's just a deadzone where the lever does nothing. No reason not to have it wound fully in except if you're prone to accidentally putting pressure on your levers without meaning to. But the term "bite point" is misleading because it sort of gives the impression that you're modifying a leverage curve or something.
  • 1 0
 @nilswalk: would it therefore be the case that if you have the contact adjust set to minimum on the higher end versions of the codes (ultimate and silver) itd be the same setting as the bronze versions which don’t feature the contact adjust?
  • 1 0
 As in, the ultimate and silver versions don’t allow for a closer bite point than the ‘fixed’ bronze versions, they just allow more lever throw
  • 1 0
 @oatkinso: fair guess, but idk for sure
  • 1 0
 @Highclimber: so if my brakes feel good they are dysfunctional?Just wondering, brakes are simple compared to what?
  • 1 2
 @oatkinso: as you wind in the bite point the pads move closer to the rotor. You can literally see it happening! So if you want the pads to bite fast wind the pads in. If you like the lever to be really close to the bars when compressed (loads of pro riders set it like this) then leave it wound out. The only 2 brakes that actually work are the sram rsc and hopes in my experience. I have my codes wound in full. I like a really short lever throw that stops about 1.5cm from my bar. Check out someone like Adam Brayton or Joe Barnes’s brakes. They have their levers touch the bars at full compression. So you can fine tune the point of contact of pad on disc.
  • 2 0
 @nilswalk: vital mention in their review that the lever throw seems to be considerably less on these;

www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/hydraulic-disc-brakes/sram/maven-ultimate-expert-kit-47191#product-reviews-426291
  • 4 0
 “One key detail to the Maven system is hidden from view, and that’s the images.”
  • 3 0
 All these SRAM sales, new brakes being released … is a new AXS Reverb going to finally be released with longer travel options and a shorter stack height? Fingers crossed.
  • 4 0
 Is it just me, or does it look like someone's spunked all over those calipers?

Less rotor burn, more Saltburn...
  • 4 0
 Found these for sale directly at SRAMNation (red caliper)

sramnation.com/products/sram-maven-limited-brakes
  • 7 1
 TRP >
  • 3 0
 TRP DHR EVO + 1.
  • 3 0
 I like big brakes and I cannot lie.
You other brothas can´t deny.
That's when a bike rolls in with an itty bitty lever and
A rotor thing in yo face. You get SPRUNG.
  • 2 0
 If the Maven are on par Trickstuff Direttissima, then the Trickstuff Maxima (and maybe Intend Trinity) are still the most powerful brakes out there. Granted that you are willing to pay 2x the amount.
  • 3 1
 I wouldn’t say Intend Trinity are amongst the top for most powerful
Also I’ve heard Radics Kahas have more power feeling than Maximas which is interesting and would be pumped to see more reviews on them
  • 3 0
 @stormracing: Intend is certainly marketing them as such! Dale Stone posted a review of them 2 weeks ago and it sounds promising. The problem is that the batches sell out so fast meanwhile Maximas are readily available now with the longest track record.

Agreed, those Kahas look great bit looks like it is only a 1-2 person team working on them. Just worried about long term support.
  • 2 1
 @sprung-mass: I’m just speaking from personal experience but I’m only one person so take it with a grain of salt. I’m not taking away anything from them… just saying there are brakes with more. I wouldn’t put them amongst the very top but they are up there and stronger than a lot.

I agree that could be a concern… bummer but justifiable concern. They sure are intriguing though! Been trying to convince myself to try a set for awhile now. I’m eager to!
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer reviewed the Maximas several years ago, but I don't recall him mentioning that they had too much power or bite like he did here. I'm curious how he'd compare them and why these felt like they needed to be toned down if the Maximas have greater power. Is the power delivery on the Maximas more linear?
  • 1 0
 @shinook: The Maximas are known to be very good at modulation. The complaint of too much power could mean that the Mavens are not as good at modulating the power on tap. I have a set of Maxima waiting to be mounted and looking forward to finding out if they live up to the hype.
  • 2 0
 @sprung-mass: I've got some time on the Mavens, I have some Maximas on the way that I ordered a few weeks ago, so I'll be able to compare. Was just curious what someone who has ridden both thought.

I don't think the Mevans modulate poorly, but I'm also about 40lbs heavier than he is, so that likely makes a difference. They definitely have a pretty firm bite.
  • 1 0
 @shinook: sweet! Would love to hear about the difference.
  • 2 0
 @sprung-mass: short 2 ride notes between the Maximas and Mavens.

Obviously the Trickstuff aesthetics are way better, they look and feel like something that costs what they do. The Mavens get the job done, but the lever reservoir being so close to the bar is a real irritant, although the Trickstuff lever has its own issues due to the brace and lever adjuster, but it's a lot more minor. Bleeding the Mavens is a lot easier, as is installing the hoses, although the Maximas weren't exactly difficult in either regard.

Lever feel on the Maximas is way way smoother and lighter, even when the pads engage. It takes considerably less force to put power down, it's disorientingly light. The power delivery is smoother, but more linear and less ramped up than the Mavens and there is more deadstroke, which would be my main beef with them. I hate long deadstroke brakes and the Maximas have a pretty good amount, not excessive (there are worse), but not super short like Radics either. They are both easy to adapt to and learn, but the Mavens power ramps up a lot faster, which may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on who you are. The Maximas require a longer lever pull to achieve the same power, but the pull is a lot lighter, more linear, and less abrupt or firm feeling. The overall power seems similar but I haven't been out on any steep stuff yet to push the limits of what is there. I think riders could largely get by with a shorter lever position on the Mavens than the Maximas, at the cost of overall lever force, which isn't even in the same ball park, the Maximas are some of the lightest pull brakes I've tried (even more than the T4 V4).

The Maximas will work for just about anyone IMO, the only real gripe I have is the longer deadstroke compared to the Mavens. If you like rapid power delivery in a short pull, the Mavens will get you there, but they lack the super light and refined lever feel of the Maximas. The Mavens IMO are more suited to heavier riders, I think lighter riders will have a harder time dialing them in.

Honestly I like the Mavens a lot if you can look past the aesthetics and brand, but the Trickstuff have such a refined quality feel in comparison, it's really not fair to compare the two.
  • 1 0
 @shinook: Even after reading through countless articles and forum posts, no one described the Maximas in the same level of detail. Thank you for the in-depth comparison. I am thrilled to hear that they have a decent dead stroke and linear power delivery. Those are exactly the attributes I look for in a brake and dislike Shimano brakes because they are far from that. I looked long and hard at the Radics but online reports suggested a very short lever throw so I steered away. Now I am super stoked to mount the Maximas.

It is good to hear that the Mavens have comparable power riders with specific preferences can finally be satisfied. Codes are now being equipped on downcountry bikes (Epic Cool so Mavens fill that void of a super strong brake.
  • 2 0
 @sprung-mass: new updated Radics have pad contact adjust which would help big time!
  • 2 0
 @sprung-mass: Yes, the Radics have an insanely short throw, shorter than any brake I've tried (Saint, MT7, Maxima, Maven, Hope, Dominion A4). The power ramp up comes on really intuitively and smoothly, but there is basically no deadstroke. They are ideal for people who like to run their levers closer to the bar IMO.

They are great for people who want the levers run close to the bars, not so great if you want the levers really far out and want some deadstroke between when you pull the lever and the brakes engage. The ramp up to power isn't as dramatic as the Mavens, but IMO it's more dramatic than the Maximas. I like them both a lot, but they have a different feel. I hear the new Kahas will have contact adjust, so that might help some and give more flexibility for people who want more deadstroke. They are super smooth though and have a great feel, I rode them for ~6 months and really liked them

The Kaha lever body has a brace on it that is kindof far out and can make positioning controls awkward though. It's not awful and you can work around it more than you can the Mavens, but the brace isn't as close in as the Trickstuff, for better or worse, but it can get in the way. I think this is true of most more powerful brakes though, all of them have some form of brace (Intend, Trickstuff) or a lever body that gets in the way (Maven). It's not unmanageable but it is a minor annoyance. It's not isolated to them, though, and every brake system has some irritant around lever positioning.

Bleeding the Kahas is super easy and intuitive, they use Bleeding Edge fittings, so it's dirt simple and takes basically no time at all. Trimming hoses, as with any braided hose, is kindof a pain but not awful, about the same level of effort as the Trickstuff. I would caution that getting the hose straight is a little tedious and sometimes you end up with weird kinks around the lever, but I believe newer versions use a rotating fitting that resolve this, mine did not.

One suggestion on the Trickstuff: The Maximas bleed instructions have a piston process where you let the pistons out slightly and bleed them then push them back in. I would strongly recommend doing this, my rear was fine but I got a ton of air out of the front doing this. They suggest a tool to do it, but I put two 2mm rotors together (for a total of a 4mm space) and slotted them into the caliper to work the pistons out, then zip tied it in place for the bleed. The pistons will move with the bleed more than other brakes I've used, so keep them there and in place until you are done with that portion of the process. If the rotors stay in place, then it'll keep the pistons from popping out.
  • 2 0
 So they are equivalent or slightly more powerful...so Sram finally has made a decent DH brake. Currently testing a Shigura setup which feels a tad stronger than my trusty Saints.
  • 1 0
 I think people make way too big a stink over what fluid is used. I’ve seen crap brakes use DOT and good brakes use DOT, seen same for mineral. Most cars use DOT but unless I’m mistaken Australia uses mineral oil. One argument why DOT is used in cars is because water will mix with it so even if the customer doesn’t flush their fluid on schedule it will still function. Seen the other argument like here where because mineral won’t mix with water it needs less service but then heard military vehicles use DOT 5 (silicon based) and require more flushing because it won’t mix with water. Currently work in transportation on trains and the brakes here use a red oil that I suspect is mineral based. Point is don’t judge a brake just because it’s fluid.
  • 3 0
 Those levers look like medical equipment you'll find in a procedure room. Fugly as huck. I don't think the Van Halen paint job could save it.
  • 1 0
 So the Ultimate has silver hardware, the Silver has black hardware, and the Bronze has grey hardware.
Okay.

Also, I am a fan of bringing colors to bikes, but those limited edition calipers don't do it for me at all, and look like an aftermarket/home cooked product, not like it is part of the same set als the levers.
  • 1 0
 At 150lbs the only brake ive ever felt that was too powerful is hayes dominions with 203mm rotors front and rear on a Nukeproof Giga 297. They balanced out and worked great on steep 30-40% gradient DH trails especially if it was good dirt. But in lower speed lower gradient they were nearly unrideable I would fully lock all the time unexpectedly.

Definitely intrigued to try these and maybe back to some 180mm rotors front and rear like its 2015.
  • 4 0
 BIG BRAKES ARE COOL WE LIKE STOPPING POWER
  • 1 0
 Soooo the DB 8 and the Maven are now the low and high-end of the new SRAM brake-line-up? With three options up there and maybe another one in-between everything is covered ...
  • 3 0
 So who’s gonna top them off with their big bottle of shimano mineral oil first?
  • 2 0
 I wonder if the organic pads on these are somehow magically better than every other organic pad... or just the inherent weaknesses are overcome by brute force?
  • 1 0
 they just bigger, with more force applied
  • 5 1
 Pair of MT5 brakes and SLX levers, 200€ the pair… Unbeatable
  • 3 0
 SRAM, making your bike unstoppable!

Lets hope these brakes work. (Fingers crossed)
  • 6 2
 "wheel-in-the-spokes brakes" What does that even mean?
  • 5 0
 He means "stick in the spokes" I think.....
  • 4 0
 Congratulations Hayes, still top of the heap.
  • 3 1
 It's cool that they work better than Code and big boys can now stop on SRAM, but why did they have to make them so ugly? Function over form I suppose...
  • 1 0
 As part of my mid-life crisis, I’ve been trying to appear as someone that was born after the early 90’s.
These calipers make me feel like growing a mullet! If I had hair..
Tell me there will be color options..
  • 2 0
 These brakes are hideous! They look like they are from an early 90’s mtb. Also whats with all the exposed bolts…better bolts is gonna make a killing
  • 2 0
 Maybe this will bring SRAM brakes to Saint, Magura MT7, Hayes Dominion territory, big MAYBE. Codes do indeed suck for the money.
  • 2 0
 Not buying it yet... waiting for the axs Boost superdeluxe E-version, with superduper colors.. Meanwhile just an old Shimano saint do the work..
  • 1 0
 Can't believe how shit sram brakes look; honestly they are so big and bulky.... and the color.... Looks like more of an advertisement than actual brakes... Im a shimano guy for sure
  • 3 0
 SRAM changes their brake designs way too often for me to have any confidence in whatever they're currently peddling.
  • 1 0
 too much effort to pull the lever, is the main problem it seems with this brake. Pinkbike seems to be tip-toeing around this arm pumping effort needed to actuate into the bite point......
  • 5 2
 Mineral oil — finally. now sram worth considering
  • 3 0
 C'mon! I can keep a secret.
  • 2 0
 Looks like you could store an energy bar and a one-hitter in the body of that brake.
  • 6 7
 Am I the only one who doesn't see the point of upping the braking power so much so that you have to "detune" the brakes with certain rotors and pads? Rarely do I ever feel like I'm using the full power of my Codes whilst also having full traction. This just seems like an easier way to lock up the rear wheel to me.
  • 16 0
 Heavier people or harder charging riders probably need more braking power. Choices that offer more power are a good thing.
  • 12 1
 E bikes brah, it's all about ebikes. You're slowly witnessing the great replacement theory but with bikes. /s
  • 9 0
 I got back into downhill 3 years ago. I struggle to find brakes enough powerful because I don't have the same weight as before. I'm now 210-215Lbs with the same aggressive riding style from 10 years ago when I weighted 160. Running 29 in wheels also adds leverage so it's harder on the brakes as well as the rider weight. I find that the rider weight is very often not considered in reviews, so it harder to make a choice when buying. So yes more powerful brakes are welcome. .
  • 7 1
 These brakes are not for everyone... they're aimed at very heavy, or very fast riders. Folks doing DH races and enduros with long long descents.

Codes are plenty of power for most riders, but in truth the Codes should have been SRAM's trail/enduro brake and not their DH brake.
  • 2 0
 Yep I’m light on brakes. I just moved back to a 180mm rotor on the rear. It’s constantly pissing it down. Everything is covered in moss and mud and all the rocks are made from slate or limestone. I don’t really need power. Any brake is powerful enough these days. Control and modulation is way more important.
  • 1 0
 @CaSentLeTabarnakMonHomme: dude just get some MT7s or Saints with 203mm rotors and send the thank you letter in the mail.
  • 1 0
 Haha. Razz

Actually, my setup right now is with Saints but I run them with 220mm rotors front and rear. It's not perfect but it works. At least I'm not burning rotors and pads anymore.


But after all, I just need to lose weight, I know... lol
  • 1 0
 @CaSentLeTabarnakMonHomme: put redline likewater and they'll be perfect. They have some wandering with shimano mineral oil
  • 2 0
 Its too bad the levers are so stiff, I get arm pump just thinking about riding these levers again
  • 2 0
 Wallys bicycle world is incredible. Such an amazing collection in the back building!
  • 2 0
 Maven? Assume these run on Black-Briar mead, not DOT fluid or mineral oil?
  • 2 0
 Mavens replace codes, Codes replace G2s maybe? There's a lot of brakes in the SRAM lineup.
  • 1 2
 More options = generally good. But is anyone not finding enough stopping power with Codes on 220mm HS2s??? I don't know, in the places I need to limit speed the most (steep, long drops), my limiter is almost always tire traction. Even with modulation, why would you want a scenario where you could accidentally insta-lock both wheels? I'm open to scenarios!
  • 2 0
 I always want the strongest brakes possible. Its not like weaker brakes operate as abs.
  • 1 1
 @RonSauce: then why not put 220mm on XC bikes? Overkill has downsides, and I'm arguing that "appropriate" brakes are better than overwhelming brakes for tire traction.
  • 1 1
 @ultimatist: I run 203mm quad pistons on my xc bike front and back. The only reason the rotors aren't bigger and the brakes aren't stronger is because I still try to keep a reasonable budget on my bikes.
  • 1 1
 @ultimatist: all of my brakes have a doo-hickey on the handlebars with a lever on it. If I pull it too hard and lose traction I pull it less hard and the calipers seem to squeeze the rotor less which seems to let the wheel stop skidding. I hope that helps.
  • 2 0
 Will SRAM fans now finally agree that the Code is and always has been underpowered for a DH brake?
  • 1 0
 Id like to see some form of bleeding edge on the lever end. That has been one of my fave updates when it comes to bleeding my codes.
  • 4 0
 Avid Code 7 ?
  • 4 0
 Nah. Juicy 3.
  • 3 1
 So is the PB crowd ever happy, content, sasified, or somewhat excited about any product?
  • 2 2
 I am excited about them, i have a 50lb turbo Levo that can get out of hand on long descents especially if it involves steeps. I ordered the expert kit, it’s a good deal and will actually match my red lyrik.
  • 1 0
 Its ok to list the cons of why tou wouldn't/ won't buy something when someone tries to sell you something. Thats called market research, and companies love it when they don't have to pay too much for it.
  • 3 0
 Different bleed screw? How much does the new bleed kit cost...
  • 4 0
 This isn't a bad thing. It will prevent people ruining seals from DOT contamination.
  • 2 0
 It looks like if you wanted to run finned pads you’d be out of luck with Mavens.
  • 1 0
 Love those 4-bolt 20mm adapters! I always use 4-bolt +20mm adapters on my bike. Not a big fan of stacked adapters because of their long bolts and spherical washers.
  • 1 0
 I wonder when SRAM will ever make those brakes good-looking on top of all.. but guess, that part might be not so important...
  • 1 1
 Any comparison with Magura and Formula 4 piston brakes? My Formula Cura 4 brakes are the most powerful I ever used but I have no experience with Hayes Dominion or TRP whatever model it is.
  • 2 0
 Did Eddie Van Halen's estate sue Sram for copyright infringement around the brake caliper paintjob?
  • 3 1
 Too bad the article is not accompanied by public photos Wink
  • 4 1
 Looks pretty cool
  • 2 0
 Cons: Weight weenies will whine -true
  • 2 0
 So two bleed kits with the expert kit?
  • 3 1
 I am not paying 600$ to get my brake caliper pre-worn lol
  • 4 1
 Free the pictures!
  • 3 1
 Oh ho ho! Where is your god now DOT fluid faithful?!
  • 3 2
 Bottom loaded pad design is a bummer, not super critical however not ideal on $300 brake
  • 4 0
 Really? I've found the fact that the pads come out of the top fairly useless, because when I change pads I have to take of the caliper to push back the pistons (and usually give them a clean and relube) anyway.
  • 1 0
 @finnspin: It's nice to have the ability to get the pads out of the top, especially since on many bikes the mount for the caliper can make it difficult to get pads out the bottom. Plus, it's probably easier to get a tool in from the top of the caliper too, which this brake doesn't have much room for. Minimal access to the pads/pistons just sucks overall.
  • 3 0
 @mastodian: I think it's something I can live with if it helps the brake perform better, I'm not doing pitstops against the clock so a bit less access to the pistons when cleaning them won't matter to me. A Hayes-like quick alignment feature would gain me much more convenience than accessing the pads from the top.

Caliper stiffness can certainly be improved by using the space on the top. I don't know how much that matters, but Sram seems to think so..
  • 1 2
 Is that a new / proto Fox fork on the bike ? Adjusters / air cap looks different and then from a rear shot of the forks it appears to be a Fox sticker on them possibly saying grip 3 , although a bit blurred?
  • 4 0
 those are better bolts' top caps

betterbolts.com/products/fox-36-38-40-top-caps
  • 2 0
 @aegiz: Cheers for that I have never heard of them, they look nice
  • 2 0
 Perfect for heavy ebikes.
  • 1 3
 My first experience with Codes was to brake to aggressively and go over the bars and break my elbow, so these scare the bejesus out of me. I do think it's smart that they are encouraging people to start with small rotors and build up. I only wish they had started suggesting this years ago and my oddly shaped chicken wing would be more standard.

Also, the switch to mineral oil?!? That's pretty stunning. I think Pinkbike should send a vile of Sram and Shimano mineral oil to Blackstone for an oil analysis and see if Sram's claims are true about how wonderful it is. Like Dario, I have a gallon of Shimano fluid in my shop and would love to use that instead.
  • 2 2
 frankly the Shimano oil isn’t even good in Shimano brakes. one weak link (of many) for that design. there is more than one aftermarket fluid option that will improve the wandering bite point somewhat
  • 1 0
 @knarrr: Inquiring mind would like to know, which fluid you refer to?
  • 1 0
 @gunbirk: The usual suggestions I've seen are (normally used as) suspension oils: Red Line Likewater, and Putoline HPX R 2.5.w.
  • 1 3
 It seem they failed to correct the main issue I have with their brakes. The master cylinder. Due to the bite point adjustment feature, as the pads wear, the lever throw moves closer and closer to the bar requiring constant bleeds as pads wear.
  • 2 0
 So glad I just bought the cascade north forks.
  • 4 2
 why the f*ck would anyone get these when they can get the TRPs instead?
  • 2 0
 To strong a brake - never -exactly never......
  • 2 0
 Just stick to slx..cheap strong and reliable..sram finally catching up..
  • 2 0
 SRAM finally making a real brake? I'm listening...
  • 1 0
 do NOT think about Easton Haven's when reading about these. I repeat, do NOT.
  • 2 1
 Take 100% article, take out % of marketing bullshit.. Keep buying Hope, Saint or trickstuff..
  • 1 0
 What we are really interested in is a comparison between these and the real old silver codes
  • 1 0
 Im fine with my guides honestly, until my hands are really tired, then I wish they had some more bite.
  • 2 0
 Anybody know why they named them Maven?
  • 2 1
 Love Code RSC's, but after switching to Hope V4's, never going back. The Hope V4's are just perfect.
  • 1 0
 Do you find your hopes have a high pitched squeal even in the dry? Not like wet rotors sound. Much higher.
  • 3 2
 Since these brakes are designed for E-bikes should the new product be called E-brakes?
I’ll see myself to the door.
  • 1 0
 I am excited to buy someone's take off code RSCs when they decide they have to have the latest and greatest
  • 2 0
 I'm waiting for the first pictures of Xtr levers and Maven calipers
  • 1 0
 20 years trying to convince us that DOT is superior and now this.... oh boy... poor fanboys lol ...
  • 1 0
 The cables look clean, what do they look like with the front on the right and rear on the left though?
  • 2 0
 Have SRAM finally released a brake as good as the Saint 10 years later?
  • 2 0
 They Maven'd me!
  • 2 2
 Well, they released brakes for their e-mtb platform, main advantage of codes was availability pads and dot almost anywhere
  • 3 2
 Test the damn brake on a DH bike please
  • 1 0
 Now I have to buy them becuase they’re stronger
  • 2 1
 Remove these 4 bolts to change brake pads.
  • 1 0
 Might be to powerful for some lol
  • 1 0
 Are those your brake calipers or are you just happy to see me?
  • 2 0
 Internally routed pads?
  • 1 1
 Do you have to take off 5 screws to replace the brake pads without having to re-center the caliper or remove the 2 main screws to get at the brake pads from underneath and then re-center the caliper and the brake pads? Looks like the top of the caliper is enclosed and you can't just drop in new pads without unscrewing more than one screw per caliper.
  • 1 0
 Bro science tip, do they crush uncooked spaghetti?
  • 1 0
 Special Edition caliper looks like the Brainbug from Starship Troopers
  • 1 0
 Sweet! A Sram brake that is possibly a real option. Stoked.
  • 1 0
 Bite point adjustment should be on all the models!
  • 1 0
 @dariodigiulio I AM the best skier on the mountain.
  • 2 1
 The Maven is Sram finally admitting that Codes fucking suck.
  • 1 0
 Interested to see what that FOX fork is you have.. Dials are different.
  • 1 0
 Oh boy! Sure hope there is a lightweight cross country version!
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 Ugly and less power than a Dominion A4.

What's the point SRAM?
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 Can't wait to fix those with some Putoline 2.5WT
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 @dariodigiulio Peep that fork in that header pic. Any word on that?
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 @noodlewitnosteeze Just a Fox with BetterBolts bits, that's all - it's in a previous comment above
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 Maybe that actually means they’ll make a good break
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 Name is not great. Would have been nice if they just called them Codes.
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 The Code isn’t enough anymore?
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 the first sram product to impress me in......... honestly I think it's the first.. ok the mk1 grip shift
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 That wasn't even SRAM, that was Sachs...
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 @therealmancub: Pretty sure the "Grip Shift" brand twist shifters were SRAM's first product. Sachs did also make their own twist shifter, but I'm not sure when it came out relative to SRAM's. SRAM's was on road bikes and a few MTBs back in the late 80's whereas I don't recall seeing the Sachs twist shifters appearing until around 1994. SRAM later bought Sachs, further confusing things I suppose, but I am talking about the pre-merger product offerings of each company.
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 Hot take the red color is crazy ugly