Unno Bikes Creator Cesar Rojo on The Downtime Podcast

 That was my favorite episode yet. He is quite an interesting guy.

 Keep them coming! Love the podcast.

 @sb666: cheers, good to hear!

 @downtimepodcast: is there one with Chris Porter?

 @jaame: not yet, but I would like to get him on the show at some point. I'm guessing you guys would like to hear that!?!?

 @downtimepodcast: Nah, Chris has made his standpoint clear on EVERYTHING in the world of MTB so little more to add

 @downtimepodcast: I would

 @scary1: Totally agree!

 It would be nice to listen to Leo Kokkonen too, the man behind Pole bicycles.

 Loving the podcast! Keep up the post race shows. Eliot is super informative and would make an excellent reoccurring guest!

 Bit late to the party; but this was very very good! Nice mix of technical insight, not much holding back (hello Pole ) But not arrogant. Nice!

 @downtimepodcast: definitely. The longer bike has some siginificant plus points and Chris or Marcel have some very good points to make. I think I'm right that Marcel used to work with Cesar too. I'd say go see the guys at Geometron / Mojo rising as its not far from Bristol and partake of their lunchtime ride too. Chris P is a great guy in the flesh and on video. I am sure your inquisitive and well researched interview style would be welcomed. And you could find out where that elusive skinsuit is, eh

 Thanks @cotic-bikes, glad you enjoyed listening. He's definitely one of the people who really questions things and tries to push it all forwards in a good way.

 @downtimepodcast: it's amazing that whenever I hear him talk, he is outspoken about certain ideas, but in a fact based, simple yet classy way, whereas some people trying to shake the industry are far more... "outspoken" and they always have this controversy twang to it. And it smells sensation more than reality. On the other side, "we mere mortals", people who pay for bikes, who follow Gods of bike handling and engineering, many of us want that sensation, we want to beleive that someone, somewhere has found the secret formula and we love when they throw it in others face. Cesar is a bloody class, without being boring. That's for sure.

 @WAKIdesigns: very well put. Yeah, there is a quiet confidence that really shines through.

 @cotic-bikes your podcast was phenomenal as well !!

 @WAKIdesigns: Cesar has a background in riding, engineering qualifications and resources that put him almost out on his own in the industry.

Testing, testing testing, all after lengthy design optimisation, class is the right word for it, all without being an a*shole.

 Being fair to you si, you know your shit too, you might not get to play in a fancy studio in Barcelona but your gear is always well thought out. The new range is very nice.

 Great ideas in there @woots!! Maybe I can get hold of Owen Pemberton, who is one of the guys behind Forbidden Bikes, and was involved in the new Norco. That could be interesting. Chris Porter is definitely on my list! If anyone has a contact at Specialized who can put me in touch with someone to talk about their data acquisition (Jack Rorque?) then I'd be very grateful. I have to say that Loic's bike always looks like the suspension is working well.

 @downtimepodcast: And Starling Cycles for lateral compliance, and other interesting thoughts!!

 @phutphutend: the guy from starling always impresses me with a solid base to his opinion, be that mathematical or real world testing, he doesn't just tell people to do one if they question his design decisions.

I have heard porter speak a few times but not sure he has the background to quantify much of his opinion, he does have experience though.

 @justanotherusername: Thank you...!

 @justanotherusername: watch this space!

 @downtimepodcast: keep turning out the good stuff.

 @justanotherusername: I'll keep doing my best!

 Thanks @WAKIdesigns, it means so much to hear feedback like that! I'm glad that you've found the podcast, and I hope you enjoy catching up on all our episodes.

 I'm going to disagree on this point. He has a fundamental understanding of geometry like most other designers / Engineers. Similar to the issues suspension companies have with defining what architectures contribute to better damper design and what is needed to achieve the best valving. Telescoping forks really constrain the development pathway forward. "Long bike doing good" - misses all the critical details; head angle, reach, chainstay, fork offset, stem length, rear kinematics....I'm not buying his opinion.

 @Loamhuck: I don't really follow you, are you saying his point about longer bikes not doing well is not valid?

If that's the case I think you are over analysing this point and looking for too much detail, what he is saying is correct after all to the point that 'long' geometry bikes are not successful at races.

 @justanotherusername: I think one of the more interesting things here is that 'long' is such a qualitative term. What we felt was a 'long' bike in 2012, would be 'stubby' by 2018 standards.

I respect Cesar's background - the guy has a TON of knowledge. But his example of Isak Levisson is a sample size of one rider, represented by a boutique brand.

With many of the larger brands moving towards longer bikes, and many racers experimenting with reach offset cups, etc, it'll be interesting to see where we are at in a few years.

 @jaydubmah: I think his point is that most, if not all DH and enduro bikes converge around a certain point, of course they differ as you say by a degree here or there from the average and people are adjusting reach by a few mm but there is nobody doing well on a bike that dramatically differs from the average, there are no 62 degree 500mm reach enduro bikes being ridden to high places at the EWS for example.

In terms of geometry evolving of course this will happen but I think we are now at the fine-tune stage, head angle numbers haven't really changed for years now in DH and we are now tweaking fork offset and adjusting front to rear weight bias with chainstay length to head angle correlation but no drastic numbers.

The only guys pushing super 'out there' geometry don't have data or results to back them up, it's almost a USP for the brand more than anything - I'm not sure if I personally count porter in with that though as he offers various reach and angle options (though his head angle options are pretty extreme) and he does understand the need for balance in a bikes geometry.

 To me Sick guys just do crazy bikes and my hat is off to them. Honestly. They have their insta lives which I find entertaining. Chris Porter is also doing his thing. Fine, they have their niche. But Pole just went off the rails, full retard by shitting virtually on everyone, calling virtually every bike company polluters and then, going off on a ramble how their bike is superior in style typical for worst marketing campaigns of big companies, like Giant, finally calling their method unique as if Empire didn’t machine front triangle before, as if it was really that great idea. Come on...

Back to Sick and Geometron - they have a niche, fine. But so was 650b, and we all know what happened. a couple of dorks who started off by stuffing terrible rims on terrible tyres to 26” frames and forks to raise bb, because fhey couldn’t fkng pedal over rocks without hitting them, they suddenly rule the world. Nothing to Kirk Pacenti, dude had his vision, fine, he was supposed to stay on niche level. Same with Eagle, who the F needs all this range. If it was a niche product, OneUp or Wolffooth making giant saucers, fine, but it got mainstream. So the problem arises, when evident deviation goes mainstream. As much as I like Sick boys, Chris Porter, I hope their vision will stay a kink and will not be sold by likes of Trek or Spec.

 To make a parallel, I once read that when you design a fighter jet the more stable it is, the less maniable.
I read that about the Su-27 particularly, there was a version with "canards" wings and one without, the one with canards was much stable than the one without, but consequently less maniable.
So notwithstanding the relative lack of similarity between a fighter jet and a mountain bike, maybe the same kind of relation can be drawn : The longer the bike, the more stable, and mathematically the faster, but the shorter one, less stable is more maniable and may end up being the faster on the finish line.
It was particularly interesting at MSA as the 3 27,5 coming first went through that tight right turn in the wood pretty easily when some 29er strugled a lot more, though I haven't looked at each one to see if any conclusion can be drawn.
On such a short sample you can't really tell if it was the bikes or the riders.

On a side note I like how the geometron (and others) pushed the boundaries, but yeah maybe we've reach a sweet spot.
A Nicolai factory EWS team would be cool, though maybe geometrons are in fact better for the average Joe who wants stability, but not so good for the top riders who don't need that much stability.

 @WAKIdesigns: I honestly think pole lost custom because of all of that bullshit, Sick on the on the other hand use personality to help sell product, I agree Jordan is a great salesman, it helps makes the company what it is, the only reason I mentioned them is he took the Cesars comments personally and threw disparaging comments back his way when nothing was aimed at people like them. (Ultra niche)

 @justanotherusername: The hole carbon environmental thing is a headscratcher for me, and Pole's delivery could have been way better for sure.

The pits they use to get aluminum out of the earth are heinous. On the flip-side, I don't feel that Cesar's argument for carbon being better environmentally holds true for me either. If I want to recycle something aluminum, those facilities are relatively easy for me to access. For me to recycle a carbon part - it's a lot trickier.

Full disclaimer, I've got a Pole Machine and I LOVE it - and at the same time, it's got carbon parts on it too, so it'd be hypocritical of me to slam on carbon.

From a geometry standpoint, I still feel there will be shifts. Something as simple as crank lengths could change, and from there, a whole ripple could go into frame design again.

Leigh Johnson has been riding a Pole Machine at lots of enduro events and has had great results. It would be super fascinating to see one of the upper tier riders on a more unconventional bike (for example, Greg Minaar when he rode for Honda back in the day). But from a budget standpoint, when you're a design outlier, it's tough to get the money to pay for that talent.

@downtimepodcast - let's get the Pole guys on the podcast so we can keep the dialogue going

 @jaydubmah: he wasn’t making argument like that, I talked to him about it as well when I did my pitiful interview for DH24. He was saying that aluminium isn’t cleaner by default like Pole was stating, not that carbon is cleaner than alu, he said that he tries to make his carbon as clean as he can. So it all depends on the factory.

downhill24.bike/catching-up-with-cesar-rojo

 @justanotherusername: I didn’t hear that, I guess it was in their live story so it’s gone. Also Cesar can’t really legitimately back up what he was saying about longer being slower so it surely gave Jordan some room for argument. When I talked to Cesar he also mentioned same thing that Graves and Bryn Atkinson said: longer (not meaning super long) bike is better for racing but who races every day.

 @jaydubmah: it's always interesting to see where things go in the industry and if bikes get better for it then all the better - bikes have never been so good, especially 'enduro' type machines.

We will have to agree to disagree on geometry changing in a huge way from this point onwards, congrats on the pole purchase thoigh, I think the construction is lovely, CNC is part of my job so I appreciate the work that has gone into it - it does explain your defence of the geo somewhat though ;-) - enjoy it, I'm sure it rides amazingly well.

 @justanotherusername: Im not sure thats true. The riders doing the best tend to be on big teams with decent budgets to pay for the best riders. So the question is are people not doing well on 62 HA 500mm reach doing because they are not as good a bike or because no one who makes one can afford to put a competative EWS team together?

 @CM999: this is almost becoming some kind of conspiracy in the industry, that large manufacturers are somehow behind the curve of these smaller brands, scared or just 'don't get it'.

Listen to Cesar himself here contradict this , mondraker allowed him to experiment, how else did forward geo come about?! other brands allow engineers to do this too, you also notice riders / racers using pre-production bikes which at the point of manufacture have the ability to be made with geometry of choice within reason, but yet none of these bikes have huge reach figures or mental head angles, do they?

Is this a conspiracy of some kind or is it somehow these smaller companies are run by genius minds that are well ahead of the curve? Highly unlikely.

What we are forgetting is that geometry has already gone through that huge shift - bikes are all much longer than just a few years ago, look at a modern specialized or giant, the reign has a 455mm reach medium and 64.5 head angle, that is a huge shift from the previous 'norm' and slacker and longer than the bike the WC giant riders used a few seasons ago (which is why they stuffed them with angle headset and ran one size up)

The reason nobody is winning on super slack, super long bikes is because normal bikes are now already slack and long, going further for the sake of niche is counter productive and the results speak for themselves, though I'm sure a conspiracy is a better explaination.

 @justanotherusername: huh, that's nothing. I have heard a few people say that Cesar is covering his arse with those opinions, he supposedly made UNNOs for dentists who can't ride, hence "slow" geometries on his bikes.

If I may hve my half arsed opinion I would say it is the opposite. Those super long bikes with weights attached to them suit shitty riders, because those bikes support being a passenger on the bike. There is no fkng way in the world, geometry has to be a balance between "static" stability (what bike can take without riders input) and "dynamic potential" that is how bike reacts to riders input. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to realize that further the wheels get from BB, the harder it is to make the bike do what you want to do. It takes more sheer muscle power to make the bike do things, since the bigger it is, the less feedback is being transmitted to the rider. So yeah, long bike with heavy center will roll better over holes - YES! but rider input can make the bike skip half of the holes. Here's my little theory applying to the design of the whole bike.

Where does the balance between static/ dynamic lie? Have we reached the optimum? Who knows. But for me personally, Stupid long low and slack smells too much of Awake as f*ck mentality, which only strength is uniqueness, and the moment the mainstream catches up, is the moment when they are left with no trousers on and everyone's looking. As I said Sick dudes fit that picture perfectly, and if they will try play Leo's and Chris pseudo performance game, they will loose.

 @justanotherusername: If you're ever in the Canmore area and want to check the bike out, lemme know. I'd be happy to show you around the trails too! Cheers

 @justanotherusername: He says long bikes haven't done better on the world cup and thinks they won't in the future. How can he say that when there are barely any long bikes on the world cup? Nicolai have had a team for what? 2-3 years with Jack Reading? Pole came started this year with Issac who then switched to a Canyon Sender because the prototype had some problems.
Plus racers are SUPER conservative, when they get used to a bike they tend to stick to it (which as Cesar explained makes sense). That is why you don't see many racers with wide rims for that same reason, they have been used to thin rims for years. Greg Minaar has been going longer and longer but in tiny increments (his new XXL V-10 has a reach extension headset). He says he's most recent bike feels the best of all in his career! How long has he been riding? Why didn't he have a longer bike years ago?
To use pro riders as references as to the limits of bike design is a bit far fetched. Not to the point of roadbike racing (because of the UCI limitations) but still take it with a grain of salt.

 @SintraFreeride: Minnaar disproves Rojos comments on long bikes. Minnaar has been around so long and at a good level his whole career surely his opinion is more relevant than Rojos?

There is a degree of conservatism from the larger brands. Carbon frames are expensive to produce and if they are wrong even more expensive - hence the aluminium Evo from Spec. Also there are very few riders at the top who can dictate to the big companies and engineers what bikes they want. Gwin and Minnaar maybe the only two... As such bigger brands will always follow smaller ones but they have a bigger budget for better riders hence results probably even out.

Anyway I think there will be a gradual shift to longer bikes and also more balanced bikes (longer CS) but it will take a other few years to catch up.

IMO Unno have keep their geo conservative so as not to scare off those who can afford to purchase them. Similar to the Taniwha. Again it is all a business strategy to sell bikes.

That's my 2 pence worth. Interested to see others opinions and more interviews on this topic.

 @fartymarty: But minnaars bike isn't super long / slack though.

His bike has a 475-482 reach, 64ish head angle - its bang within 'normal' on the circuit when his height at 6ft 3 is taken into account.

As I said above, the 'go longer and slacker' thing has been done over the past few years and almost converged now, DH bikes +-1 degree from 63 head angle and 640+- 5mm or so medium reach.

The big brand geometry is no longer conservative (your sucking up that conspiracy again there) as my giant example above stated, many are bringing XL models out with just short of 500mm reach.

Cesars point and one I agree with are bikes that diverge a great deal from from the current norm, which is now both slack and long compared to only a few years ago don't win races, not because of a worldwide conspiracy on bike geo but because they are then not the most suitable.

You seriously think average joe at about 5ft 11 should be on a 500mm reach 62deg head angle enduro bike? Minnaar disagrees.

 @SintraFreeride: jack readings geo isn't that mad at all though and much shorter than the geometron, that's right he runs a headset to further shorten geometry - take a look: dirtmountainbike.com/gear/bike-reviews/downhill-bikes/matter-fit-nicolai-g19

 @fartymarty: both Minnaar and Peaty are big lads, meanwhile Super Long Low and Slack crowd wants to give a bike with 500 reach and 480 chainstays to Danny Hart. Also Minnaar more qualified to give opinion than Rojo? Come on... he praises carbon rims oh-oh! No1, he tests his suspension by throwing the rear end into the ground as hard as he can. He made a DH tyre with intermediate knobs. I mean... he can ride, he definitely can ride but he is a worse engineer than Cesar is a rider.

 @justanotherusername: I know that I was just saying that the only brand that makes long bikes and has a worldcup team is Nicolai.

 @SintraFreeride: I think it's more likely you were implying jack was on some super radical geometron based DH bike when in fact this isn't true - even when riders have the option to run super slack and long they don't do it.

 @justanotherusername: Going longer and slacker has been done but only slacker has gone to the extremes. This is why 63º HA is the norm for DH (Barrel tested 59º HA on the Mondraker). Reach has not gone to extremes at least not in DH racing. Minnaar is only now realising that +450mm reach is better for his height which blows my mind seeing as how tall he is. Of course, because he is a great rider he was able to ride well on the old tiny bikes.

Big brands are conservative but they are slowly getting to +500mm reach in their XL and XXL models whereas that would be an a L or M in Geometron terms. Plus they are doing that with 430mm chainstays and 74º seat angles!!!
Geometry is the final frontier in the mountainbike world in my humble opinion. Most bikes work great but lack great geometry. Steep seat angles are a no brainer.

 @SintraFreeride: heh, head angle is not only about geometry and the reason Barel abandoned it was nothing more but the fact that his fork wouldn’t compress. Geometry is not the mAin frontier only Leo thinks so, mainly because he has nothing else to offer and he is relatively uneducated. At least guys from Sick can weld frames themselves and have done more of them than Leo has been sitting in throughout his life. At least Chris Porter can a thing or two about suspension and has been dealing with UKs best riders. Go ask another giant of bicycle engineering Dave Weagle, if geometry is so crucial. Come on... are Stumpjumpers Evo sold out? Why isn’t Jared Graves riding one,
Instead going for the regular version #notallowedto?

The argument why which bikes win is flawed. Nobody can really say, this dude wins because of this and that bike. Unlike the awake as fuk crowd, Cesar saod it several times: the rider matters, conditions matter, it is impossible to create controlled testing environment on a World Cup track. Amaury could win on a 26er. He said the same to me and to the Spoomer from vital.

 @WAKIdesigns: The bike has to be appropriately sized to the rider. Tall guys are now getting bikes that fit. Maybe Rojos points are valid. Time will tell.

 @justanotherusername: DH reach has always been shorter than enduro. No point having a 500mm reach with 74 ESTA and 430 CS - its all gotta balance.

I don't think we are far off. For me CS needs to grow with reach.

And no I don't think 5'11" riders should be on 500mm reach bikes even with a 78ESTA.

 @justanotherusername: it's also worth noting a 500mm reach isn't that long... My 440mm reach frame with slack(ish) STA has a similar butt to bar measurement to a 510mm reach frame with steep STA.

 @fartymarty: I have made my opinion, won't bother boring on but at least my points are factually correct - I think when you start comparing reach to saddle-bar measurement it's impossible to take your arguments seriously, they are entirely irrelevant when used in the same context, unless we all ride push bikes sat down 100% of the time that is, and even then, it would still need to be a separate concern.

 @WAKIdesigns: I agree that there is such a thing as too slack. 63º requires steep gradient or like you said the fork will bend instead of compress. I said geometry was the final frontier not the main. I am not a Specialized dealer so can't comment on the Stumpjumper evo. And please so using pros as reference they are rather conservative and will only test or change radically bike wise given enough time/in small increments if ever. Yes I do agree that the main factor in winning will be the rider and the conditions but some things are very clear bike wise eg full suspension is faster than hardtails on rough terrain. I have only spoken briefly with Leo so can not make assertions with such confidence as yourself about his education.
I like to test things out myself to see whether or not they work/are faster/better.
My conclusions so far are:
-wide rims are better as they provide better sidewall stability. There is such a thing as too wide for a certain width of tire too eg 40mm internal for 60mm tire (at least modern tires)
-slacker HA is better up to 63-64º beyond that you need serious gradient
-longer chainstays provide more traction and stability but make it harder to manual
-Longer wheelbase provides more stability again without problems going around tight stuff even +1300mm
-steep seat angles coupled with long reach allow you to climb better without being on the tip of the saddle
-Longer reach is again more stable and more confortable

Of course there is such a thing as too long, too slack and too low I just don't thing Pole or Nicolai geometron suffer from those unless you ride the wrong size frame.

 @fartymarty: Have you ridden a long reach bike? I'm 5'11" have a 520mm reach bike and have a ~76º seat angle. Best bike ever!

 @SintraFreeride: I rode Kona Big Honzo with 475 reach and it was too long for me. I also don’t appreciate chainstays longer than 440. I bunny and manual a lot, I love cornering, I don’t appreciate planted feeling.

 Bikes with 29" wheels do not necessarily have longer wheelbases. The bike is longer, from front of front wheel to back of back wheel. But the contact patch stays in the same place (with the same geometry).

There's so much pseudo science applied in bikes. Marketing (and riders) cling on to stuff that intuitively feels correct, but if you examine the simple scientific facts it falls apart. Bigger wheels have a larger contact area, being the best example. No they don't!

The whole long bikes can't go round corners is the same. They are marginally longer. 50mm reach may be a biggish change, but 50mm on wheelbase is bugger all, 5%.

 @WAKIdesigns: Chaps from Sick cannot weld. All of their frames are built by sub contract.

 @SintraFreeride: I have only had a pootle around a car park on a 510 reach Mondy. Seated it felt the same as my bike which is good as I mostly ride XC and 90% of the time your are sitting down. Climbing / descending I can't comment on but can see the logic behind long reach steep STA bikes. Funds permitting I will get something long and relatively slack.

 @SintraFreeride: slacker than about 61-62 you get bushing bind. Refer to the geometron thread on mtbr. I think Pole and Nicolai geo is where we will end up. It is also worth pointing out that pros have far better bike control than us mere mortals therefore can ride shorter bikes.

The worse you are the better your kit needs to be.

 @fartymarty: I have never read so much contradiction and confusion in anyone else's posts.

 @justanotherusername: Thanks, I'll take that as a complement from someone with such an extensive profile as yours.

 @fartymarty: I do wish I had an extensive bipolar pinkbike profile but I'm afraid I don't contradict myself every other sentence.

 @justanotherusername: hey, Fabien went pretty long and slack in his time.

 @SintraFreeride: yep

 Thanks @Lagr1980 . Let me know what you think to the MSA post race show with Eliot and Neko when you're done. It's a new format, but I think it could be really good when we settle into it.

 @downtimepodcast: in the middle of that one right now. Those are 2 of the most likeable guys on the scene.
I really wish this stuff was around when i was racing. Theres really alot of learnable information that you get out of these guys that is directly applicable to anyone that wants to get faster. And its free!
All i had was dumb magazines that delved into nothing of substance, unless it was about how "Specialized was awesome"

 @scary1: @scary1: It makes my day to read things like this. That's exactly why I started the podcast, and totally what I'm trying to do with it, so if it works for you, then I'm stoked!

 Glad you liked it @bedmaker! You're totally right, there isn't going to be a perfect solution for everyone, and it's great that we have so many options open to us. The hardest bit if working out what is best for us...

 Fantastic answer, but not in the spirit of Pinkbike!

#steelforthewin

 Thanks, stoked you're enjoying what we're doing.

 yeah not cheap eh. I guess it just depends on what you want, and also what you can afford. The work they have done on the details is impressive, and the thought that had gone into the whole supply chain is incredible, but that means they are never going to get close to the price of stuff that's mass-produced in the far east. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean that it's necessarily any better for you as an individual to ride.

 @downtimepodcast: yeh good point...keep up the good work.

cheers

 Thanks bro!

 Ha Ha ! *pointing finger* :p

 Glad to hear you like the post race shows @experthucker ... definitely room for improvement I think, but we are getting there.

 cheers @ColquhounerHooner

 Cheers @johnnyboydh, good to hear that you enjoyed it.

 Glad you liked it @Arturopalacios