Words Chris Hall : Photo Jamie Edwards
This week, I'm joined by Joe McEwan, the main man behind Starling Cycles. Starling made quite an entrance when Steve Jones rode their 29er Murmur and started raving about how good it was. We chat about how Joe went from aerospace engineer to bike company owner, why a carbon fibre expert chooses to make steel bikes, some hot topics like 29ers, bike weight, 29 front + 27.5 rear, and Joe gives us some inside info on his latest prototypes. You can use the player above to listen.
You can also listen by searching for ‘Downtime Podcast’ on iTunes, Spotify, or Google Podcasts, by asking Alexa, or over on our website
http://www.downtimepodcast.com/starling-cycles/ and you can follow us on Instagram
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CF made in a shed is shitty and expensive.
Aerospace CF layup is consistent quality; bike industry CF layup quality is terrible.
Steel is strong, doesn't fatigue, can be worked, feels lively.
My immediate thought was: First two reasons are controllable, so why not just aspire to improve upon them?
Because massive expenditure required for no appreciable gain.
"My immediate thought was: First two reasons are controllable, so why not just aspire to improve upon them?"
Because money? Its business not fun. Most bike companys have business men in the headquaters and not people who ride themselves which do it for the love of biking or the community...
First issue, yeah that's why I don't buy bikes made by a dude in a shed. Sorry.
Second issue is not even that big of a deal. Some companies overbuild to compensate and are a bit heavier, others go light and charge more for QA and/or warranty expenses to compensate. Consumers seem happy with current status quo vs paying more for "aerospace quality" layup consistency.
Bottom line, ride what makes you happy. Steel, Carbon and Aluminum all have their benefits. If one was so awful as folks claim, it wouldn't be used as a bike material in the first place.
So true!
And sure, we dont need aerospace cf. the cf used already expensive enough!
And apparently steel works just as well
well makes a catchy quote . But alloy is real ,carbon is real titanium is also real
The world is full of all this gorgeous bikes as you mention, let the mere mortals have their way as well, if you bought a bike that got a less favored review than the murmur, and paid the summ of a kidney transplant that's your problem,
Also caterham still beats looooots of supercars in any track under any condition, simple, effective, function over form the say.
Edit,
Never said anything about second coming or steel is a revelation, it was here long before carbon. It's basically the other way round, people think that carbon does wonders, and pay stubit money for it
@Keit: I come from Bielsko Biala where sailplanes like Fox, Swift, Diana, Diana 2 (which won many championships and scored world records) have been made. My father is RC model geek, He knows the people who worked there, I grew up among those nerds like Marganski, and meet them every summer. Now piss off into your rather unexciting anonymous existence.
I like you, we are very similar, however just like me you fall short with your assumptions as soon as you elaborate them further. Data shortage. I just wanted to prove to you that you cannot hurt me more than I can hurt myself. Race me? Uneducated? Trumpian? Coward? Honestly? Do people actually get intimidated when you speak to them this way or you just haven't tried it in real life? You talk like a 16 year old looking for a fight. Do you know how many "discussions" like that I have had? What the hell do you think you're doing here? Trying to outsmart a fool in his own game? You can try to get on your high horse all you want. Many many tried, I am just typing sht online, I don't give a flying f*ck what people like you think of me, I am just entertaining myself. Maybe because I got more friends than enemies by putting a stick into an anthill... journos, engineers from bike companies, sales reps, mechanics and racers on WCup race. and I will care about you?
You took a wrong turn man.
Oh and no hard feelings... honestly, you're just another pissed off dude. I can understand that. Make this a better day for yourself and ignore me.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDCdyxZF6q0
@WAKIdesigns:
"(currently make world’s best sailplanes) " is not the same as some of the best. And you started to forbid absolutism a few posts earlier
I know all the types you mentioned and you better not look inside the cockpit, fuselage and wings of a Diana. Performance yes,really good but workmanship precision and durability very questionable. And polish budgets are a weak excuse, quite a few very durable gliders were produced in Poland. Its just a business decision to spend little on the details and quality checks in order to sell at very low prices. Just like bikes.
But it is fun to take you up on your bold claims and then see you retreat later on. Fun for the festive days, cheers.
Urban myths and old wives tales . Well done you ticked all the boxes .
Literally all I’m asking for is one thing carbon can do that alloys can’t do and nobody can tell me. Not one single reason to justify its massive price tag. Nobody can do it.
Lots of other interesting topics discussed; weight, stiffness, 29ers, tyre inserts...
Long story short: I get much more milage out of the steel frame with alloy wheels than I do out of any other combination, overall. I have kept an excel sheet and used a time and a phone GPS. Note: I have snapped the carbon cranks and bars already but not the carbon rims. Other than that the only wear is normal wear.
PS still want you to make me a 27.5 freeride bike with a gearbox please
He is correct about fatigue but a decent aluminium frame still out lasts most riders unless they are real quick / hard on them.
Many mountain bikers out there more than happy to buy outdated carbon frames... Just not us fickle pbers!
Now the guys at Pole, those dudes are on another level when it comes to small batch non-carbon stuff. The manuf process is super innovative and a huge investment along with ultra progressive, industry defining design (a little wild). That's a wild business there.
E.g, if pole had decided on a carbon frame after all, they would have needed 3-4 moulds depending on size (potentially 200k plus) and have recently re-designed the frame so another 200k - getting on to half a million now)
What they did do is go for an innovative design by machining in two halves but the manufacturing process itself is far from innovative, waterjet cutting of the basic profile followed by 3d machining of two halves isn't the magic show it is marketed as and they could have outsourced all of he initial prototypes.
If they have gone down the in-house manufacturing route a decent cnc mill with a large enough bed and some modern cad software and you are away (Im not making this up, we have the machine capacity to make these in-house at the business I am part of) - A decent investment sure but less probably less than a full batch of carbon frame moulds alone.
This isn't taking anything away from Pole, its an innovative approach that they were the first to move forward with, they look great and from what I gather really work too but the manufacturing itself isn't ultra progressive and it likely wont be repeated by any other brands as it is just so inefficient, slow and realistically wasteful of resources (machine-time and all it entails)
I ride an aluminium, linkage-driven, single-pivot bike when I could have gone with a DW-link carbon bike, but that doesn't mean I want to be riding a 35lb, noodly, simple single pivot, linear dinosaur.
You agree with rear ends being too stiff then refer to them being 'noodly'?
I'm saying there's a happy medium. I agree that ultra-stiff bikes, or bikes with overly complex suspension designs (rhymes with spaghETTI) should not be the ideal, but he seems to be taking it to the extreme. He's basically describing steel Orange Bikes.
Not my opinion, I hate the rear wheel all over the place some bikes have, sold my old Meta AM V4 as it felt too noodley for me.
Different people like different rides.
I imagine the idea you flexed your commencal to the point that it was so bad you had sell it is all in your head though.
Agree bad design or choice of tubing for cranks to hit chain stays as a rider said they do with the starling.
Oh, and now I can’t stop thinking about how a Swoop would run on my local trails...
I just put the heaviest tyre I have ever used on the front of my my bike (Schwalbe 2.35 Magic Mary Super Gravity, Ultra soft) and it feels amazing. The damping and the traction far exceed the Minion DHF 2.5 EXO I had on there and I couldn't care less that it weighs 450gms more. Yes I actually weighed them both.
Maybe at the scale at which Starling sell frames but compare a mass produced carbon to Reynolds steel, I don't see many chinese Reynolds fs frames for £500 like I do carbon.
Regardless, the Starling is £1650-£1800, a Santa Cruz about £3k, yeti over £3k.
Very strange way to get your point across, don't you think?
Nobody is saying you should have a problem with carbon either - he is saying that at his level and qty of production carbon isn't feasible and steel can offer its own benefits anyway.
Oh, and just one last thing - as its highly likely you haven't ever ridden a starling to compare it to a SC or Yeti, how can you say that other than based on snobbery or looks?
I've ridden steel frames before.. Too heavy and the aesthetics lack in my opinion.. No I have not ridden a starling, but I highly doubt if they compare to a yeti or sc..
Also yes, looks are important at these price points... No doubt about it.
As for it being heavy because it's steel - well doesn't that depend on the design and construction? You can make a carbon or alloy frame heavy.
You doubt they compare to a yeti or sc, whys that? Timed runs when tested at Dirt mag has a prototype frame being faster than the big named carbon bikes with much better builds.
Just sayin.
The vast majority of my riding is on flat or up hill too get to ride down a hill so typically I go out for a 2 hour ride that’s up hill for 1hr 45mins with the aim of two great fun 7 min downhills.
That means these heavy weigh flexy steel sleds are out of the question as ride would end up being 1 hr and one fun down hill as I’d be too knackered to ride up to do another run.
Aluminium or Carbon for me thanks.
To me ‘Steel is real’ translates as ‘steel is old fashioned but what we know how to work with so it’s what we do’.
Have you listened to the podcast? - Joe puts this very well as your body and bike being a system and how 2-3lbs is a realistically minute percentage of this.
Its a very old road cycling debate, riding a lighter bike do you try any less hard than riding a heavier one or do you just cover ground slightly slower?
I’ve been a road rider, I was quite a bit of a road rider last year, this year just MTB though. Get on a light weight stiff carbon road bike and point yourself at a hill then repeat with just an average road bike and the difference is huge. You accelerate faster it’s less effort to hold the same pace it’s not as hard work. Indeed I give you that it may be roll reversal after a full day in the saddle.
It’s horses for course as such and I know I want light weight and reasonably stiff. I’ve had many steel bikes before steel became fashionable and I don’t like their bulk.
Couple of weeks ago I helped a knackered rider lift his Cotic Flare Max over a fence, man the weight of it made me feel sorry for him, it became obvious why he looked so knackered.
Earn your turns!
It's not about what u used to do... Its what have u done lately... The sb130 it is.
Other people / businesses exist and are more relevant to others despite how you may see yourself and ‘sick’ - you are not the only person completely immersed in an echo chamber of your own bullshit - ‘leader of the new school’.... yea right, you can’t even control your own ego and mental fragility.
You really need to sort your mental state out - making weird little Instagram posts as you are paranoid that everybody is talking about you on Pinkbike is almost as bizarre as the fact that you have scoured a story that is over a week old, read my original post and decided it absolutely must be about you.
You are either delusional or you just have hyper active ego, probably both- Happy New Year, I suggest concentrating on the things that actually matter in your life rather than taking time to broadcast to your echo chamber that somebody might have said something about you, weeks ago, on the internet, in an unrelated story, that didn't actually mention you.
Tbh just wanted to see if you stalked my insta - got what I wanted cheers
As I say, this comment genuinely wasn't about you, I really am sorry to say. I recently almost purchased a bike from a company who's owner was absolutely full of shite, this was about them, you have basically trolled yourself here.
You absolutely dogged me ragged when we started, and pinkbike is a Wild West in terms of high jinx.
For better or for worse. I love the company being 1:2:1
In the spirit of season. I’ll behave now
Does this change the characteristics of the bike in any meaningful manner?
You are at the mercy of the workers doing the layup. You know....don't buy a bike built on Monday, Friday, the first day before/after a long weekend.
I'm personally not sold on the price/value proposition of CF yet, let alone a few downgrades of components to meet price points.
Don't think most PB'ers took the time to listen and I think the shit show that was the original Pinkbike Murmur review was a shame. Don't know of anyone else that could build a bike in their shed (while working a job), have it be radically different, annoyingly simple, and a completely different aesthetic. And then to send it off and have it circumvent conventional bike standards and perform well in it's own unique way.
Been looking for a bike for a while and being here in So Cal I see evils, SC's, intense, etc all day and have become so numb and almost annoyed at current bike design. The murmur is exactly what I was looking for in terms of geo and performance. The whole aesthetic (may not be for everyone) and design ethos is a refreshing bonus. Everyone might claim that the 'marketing is working' on me but take the time to listen to the podcast. It's just a dude whose already financially comfortable, has a family, and just wants to sell X amount of bikes to ensure he can continue to make bikes.
All I need to know in one picture.
Did we really need a thread about it?
Oh ive seen it at the highest level also and its actually not that high in fact i worked in aerospace on some of the worlds first (kind of things) i also spent long enough in F1 to blow holes in lots of theories
!?!?!?!
Thats the only reason nothing else. The rest is marketing poop.
i like cf at roadbikes and normal ebikes but not at a mountainbike. theres a reason all the big companys turn up with alloy again because cf is to expensive for a lot of people which dont what to ride a cf frame with shitty parts on it.
i was riding alloy for years. now i got a steel fs and love it!
Not: Its stronger, lighter, better-er
I love steel... but I have zero desire to own a steel FS trail bike. Straight up... my cardio is crap and I don't see myself improving it to a point any time soon where instantly adding 3 pounds to my bike makes any sense.
pump track bike... steel 100%